Answer to Thomas More, Part 4
¶ An answere to Master Mores seconde boke.
IN the first chapter ye may not trie the doctrine of the spiritualtie by ye scripture: But what they saye / that beleue vndoutedly and by that trie the scripture. And it thou finde y• playne contrary in the scripture / thou maist not beleue the scripture / but seke a glose and an allegorie to make them agre. As when the pope saith / ye be iustified by the workes of the ceremonies and sacramentes and so forth / and the scripture saith / yt we be iustified at y• repentaunce of y• hert thorow Christes bloude. The first is true playne / as the pope saith it and as it stondeth in his texte / but the second is false as it appereth vn to thine vnderstandinge and the literall sens that kylleth. Thou must therfore beleue the pope ād for Christes doctrine seke an allegorie and a misticall sens: that is / thou must leaue the clere light and walke in the miste. And yet Christ ād his appostles for all their miracles required not ☜ Ioan. 5.to be beleued with out scripture / as thou maist se Ihon. v. and Actes. xvij. and bi their diligent alleginge of scripture thorow out all the new testament.
And in the ende he saith for his pleasure / yt we knowlege / that noman may ministre sacrament but he that is deriuede out of the pope. How be it this we knowlege / that noman coude ministre sacramentes with out significacion which are no sacramentes saue soch as are of y• popis generacion₊
iii.
IN the thrid chapter and in the chapter folowynge / he vttereth how fleshly minded he is / and how beestly he imageneth of God / as Paule saith. 1. corin. 2. the naturall man can not 1. Corin. 2vnderstond the thinges of y• spirite of God. He thinketh of God / as he doeth of his cardenall / that he is a monstre / pleased when men flater him / and if of whatsoeuer frailte it be / men breake his commaundementes / he is then raginge mad as the pope is and seketh to be venged. Naye / God is euer fatherly minded toward the electe membres of his church. He loued them yer the world beganne / in Christ. Ephe. 1. He loueth them / while they be yet evell and his enimies in their hertes / yer they be come vn to the Roman. 5knowlege of his sone christe / and yer his law be written in their hertes: as a father loueth his younge sonne / whyle he is yet euell and yer it know the fathers law to consent therto.
And aftir they be once actually of his church and the law of God and faith of christ written in their hertes / their hertes neuer synne any moare / though as Paule saith. Roman. vij. the Roma. 7.flesh doeth in them that the spirite wold not. And whē they synne of frailte / God ceaseth not to louelove them styll / though he be angrie / to put a crosse of tribulacions vppon their backes / to purge them and to subdue the flesh vn to the spirite or to al to breake their consciences with threateninge of the lawe ād to feare them with hell. As a father when his sonne offendeth him feareth him with the rod / but hateth him not.
God did not hate paul / when he persecuted but had layd vpp mercy for him in store / though he was angre wyth hym to scorge hym and to teach him better. Nether were those thynges layd on his backe which he after sofered / to make satisfaccion for his foresinnes / but only to serue hys brethern ād to kepe the flesh vnderunder. Nether The new life doeth tame the flesh and serue hyr neybouredid god hate Dauid when he had synned / though he was angre with him. Nether did he after sofre to make satisfaccyon to god for hys olde synnes / but to kepe his flesh vnderunder and to kepe hym in mekenesse and to be an ensample for oure lernynge₊
iiii
IN the fourth saith he if the church were an vnknowen companie / how shuld the infydeles / yf they longed for the faith / come therby? God seketh vsus and we not hymO whother wādereth a fleshly mīde / as though we first sought out god. Nay / God knoweth his and seketh them out and sendeth his mesingers vntounto them and geueth them an hert to vnderstonde. Dyd the hethen or any nacyon seke chryste? Nay / christ sought them and sent hys appostles vntounto them. As thou seyst in the storyes from the begynnynge of the worlde and as the parables and similitudes of the gospell declare₊
And when he saith / he neuer foūde ner herd of any of vsus / but yt he wold forswere to saue his life. Answere / the moare wrath of god will light on thē / that so cruelly delite to tormēt thē ād so craftely to begyle the weake. Neuer thelesse yet Sir Thomas hittōit is vntue. For he hath hearde of sir Thomas hitton whō the bisshopes of Rochester and caūterbury slew at maydstone ād of many yt sofered in braband holland and at colen and in all quarters of douchlonde and doo dayly₊
And when he saith that their church hath The pope hath no martersmany marters / let him shew me one / yt died for pardons / ād purgatory yt the pope hath fayned / and let hym take the mastrie₊
And what a doo maketh he / that we saye / there is a church that sinneth not and that there is no man but that he sinneth / which are yet 1. Ioan. 3.both true. we read .i. Ihon. iii. he that is born of god synneth not. And Eph. v. men louelove youre wives as the lorde doeth the church / and gaue him selfe for her / to santifie her and to clense hir in the fountaine of water thorow the worde / ād to make hir a glorious church vn to him selfe / with out spott or wrincle.
And i. Ihon. i. If we saie / we hauehave no sinne we disceaue oure selues and make him a lyer ād hys worde is not in vsus. Master More also wyl not vnderstond that the church ys some tyme The church is doubletaken for the electe only which hauehave the law of god written in their hertes ād fayth to be saued thorow christe written there also. whych same for all that saye wyth paul / that good which I wold / that doo I not. but that euell which I hate / that do I: so it is not I that doo it but sinne that dwelleth in my flesh₊
And Gala. v. the flesh lusteth cōtrary to y• Gala. 5.spirite and the spirite contrary to the flesh / so yt these two fightynge betwen them selues / ye cannot doo what ye wolde. For they neuer cōsent that synne is good ner hate the law ner cease to fight agenst the flesh / but assone as they be faullen / rise and fight a fresh. And that the church ys some tyme taken for the commē rascall of all that beleue / whether wyth the mouth only and carnally with out spyryte nether louinge y• law in their hertes nor fealinge the mercy that is in christ / but ether runne all to gether at ryott or kepe the law with cauteles and exposycions of their awne fayninge & yet not of louelove but for feare of hell / as the theues do for feare of the galowes / and make recompence to god for their synnes wyth holy dedes₊
He also wyll not vnderstonde / that there be Two maner faithestwoo maner faythes: one / that ys the faith off the electe / whych purgeth them of all their synnes for euer. As ye se Ihon. xv. ye be cleene sayth christ / be the reason of the worde: that is / thorow beleuinge christes doctryne. And Ihon. i. Iohan. 15.he gaue them power to be the sonnes of God / thorow beleuinge in hys name. And Ihon. iii. he that beleueth the sonne hath euerlastynge lyfe / and a thousand like textes₊
And a nother of them that be called ād neuer electe. As the fayth of Iudas / of symon magus / of the deuel / and of the pope. In whose hertes the law of god ys not wrytten / as it appereth by their workes. And therfore when they beleue many thynges of christe / yet when they come vntounto ye saluaciō that is in his bloude / they be but Iewes and turkes and forsake christ ād runne vn to the iustifienge of ceremonies wyth the Iewes and turkes. And therfore they remayne euer in synne within in theyr hertes.
Vvhere the electe hauinge the law written in their brestes and leuinge it in their spirites / synne there neuer / but with out in ye flesh Agēst which sinne they fight cōtinually & minishe it daily with y• helpe of y• spirite / thorow prayar / fastynge and seruinge their neybours louingly with all maner seruice / out of the law that is written in their hertes. And their hope of forgeuenesse is in Christe only / thorow his bloude and not in ceremonyes.
v.
ANd vn to his .v. Chapter I answere / by y• The pope hideth the scripture▪pope y• scripture is hid ād brought in to ignoraunce & the true sens corrupte And by thē yt ye call heretikes we knowe the scripture and y• true sens theroff. And I saye / that the pope kepeth the scripture as did the phareses / to make marchaundice of it. And agayne / that y• heretikes become out of you / as out of y• scribes & phareses came the appostles and Christ him selfe and Ihon Baptiste / and that they be plucked out of you and graffed in Christe and bilt vppō the fundacion of the appostles and prophetes.
And in the end / when he saith that the heretikes The heretikes be faulē out of the mistbe faullen out of Christes mistical bodi which is the pope and his. I answere that ye be a misticall body and walke in the mist and will not come at the light / and the heretikes be departed out of youre mist and walke in the clere light of gods worde.
vj.
IN the .vj. he saith that the heretikes be all nought / for they all periure & abiure. He yet saieth vn true. Many abyde vn to y• deeth. Many for their wekenesse ar kepte out of youre handes. whi many faullMany for their ouer moch boldnesse ī their awne strēgth be deliuered in to youre handes & fall in the flesh / their hertes abydinge still in y• trueth as Peter & thousandes did / & aftir repēt & be no lesse cristē thē before though ye hauehave thē in dirision vn to youre awne damnacion. And many because they come to Christ for fleshly liberte and not for louelove of the trouth / fall as it becometh them / vnderunder youre handes: as Iudas & Balam / which at the begynnynge take christes parte / but aftirward when they finde ether losse or no vauntage they gett them vn to the contrary part and are by profession the most cruelle ennimies & sotellest persecuters of the trouth. Loke Master More and rede and marke well₊
vij.
IN the .vij. he saith / that he hath holy saintes and holy counsels on his side. Name y• sayntes and proue it. Name the counsells ād y• Counselsholy prelates there of. Thou shalt shew me no nother popes or cardenales / then soch as we hauehave now / that wyll obey nother god ner man / or any law made by god or man: but compell all men to folow them / strengthynge their kingdome with the multitude of all misdoars.
He saith also that good and bad worshepe saintes / ye good well and the bad evell. How cometh it then / that ye shew not the difference & teach to doo it wel? I se but one facion amonge all the popish.
And finally he saith he is not bounde to answere vn to the reasons and scripture that are layde agenst them. It is ynough to proue their part / that it is a comen custume ād that soch a ☜multitude doo it / and so by his doctrine y• turkes are in the right waye.
IN the .viij. he saith / the saintes be moare Saintes.charitable now then when they liued. I answere / Abraham was while he liued as charitable as ye best. And yet deed / he answered him / y• prayed him / they hauehave Moses and the prophetes / lett them heare them. And so hauehave we / not Luke. 16.Moses and the prophetes only / but a moare clere light / euen Christ and the appostles / vn to whych if we herken we be saintes all ready.
And to proue that they in heuen be better then we in erth / he allegeth a texte of oure sauioure Luke. vij. that the worst in heuen is better then Ihon Baptist. Now the texte is / he that is lesse in the kingdome of god is gretter then he. Vve that beleue are gods kingedome. And Luke. 7.he that is left (in doenge seruice vn to his brythern) is euer the grettest aftir the doctrine of Christe. Now Christ was lesse then Ihon for he did more seruice then Iohan / and therfore greater then he. And by their awne doctrine there was no sainte in heuen before ye resurreccion of Christe / but what care they what they saye / blinded with their awne sophistrie.
Morouer cursed is he that trusteth in ought saue god saith the texte and therfore the saintes wold hauehave no man to trust in them whyle they were a liue. As Paul saith. 1. Corin. iij. what is Paul saue youre saruante to preach Christe. Did Paul die for you? were ye baptised in the 1. Cor. 3.name of Paul? Did I not marie you to Christ / to put youre trust in him? And againe let nomā reioyce or trust in man / saith he. For all are youres whether Paul / or Appollo or Cephas: whether the world / life / deeth / presen thynges or thynges to come: all are youres & ye are Christes / and christ is gods. If my faith be stedfast in the promises that I hauehave in Christes bloud / I nede but to praye mi father in Christes name and he shall send me a legion of angels to helpe me: so that my faith is lorde ouer the angels and ouer all creatures to turne them vn to my soules health and my fathers honoure / and maye be subiecte vn to no creature / but vn to gods worde in oure sauioure Christe only. I may hauehave no trust therfore in the saintes. If ye saye / ye put no trust in them / but only put them in remembraunce of their dutie / as a man desyreth his neyboure to praye for him / remembring him of his dutie / and as when we desyre our brethern to helpe vsus at oure nede. That is false / for ye put trust in all youre ceremonies and all youre holy dedes and in whosoeuer disgyseth him selfe and altereth his cote from the comune faciō / ye and euen in the cotes of them that be not yet saintes / aftir youre doctrine.
yf a prest said masse in his gowne / wold ye not rise agenst him and slee him / and that for ye false faith that ye hauehave in the other garmētes. For what honoure can those other garmentes doo to god moare then his gowne or profit vn to youre soules / seinge ye vnderstōde nought therby? And therto in the collectes of saintes ye saye / saue me God and geue me euerlastinge life for the merites of this or that saint / eueryevery man aftir his phantasie chosynge him some one sainte singularly to be saued by Vvith which colletes I praye you shew me how stondeth y• deeth of Christe? Paul wold saye that Christ died in vayne if that doctrine were true.
And therto in as moch as ye saye / y• saintes merite or deserue not in heaven / but in this world only / it is to be feared / lest their merites besore wasted and the deseruinges of many al spent thorow oure holy fathers so greate liberaltye.
Abraham and the prophetes / and the appostles and many sens praide to no saintes & yet were holy ynough.
And when he saith / they coude helpe when they were aliue. That was thorow their faith in beleuinge the promise. For they had promises yt they shuld doo soch miracles to stablish their doctrine and to prouoke vn to Christ / ād not vn to them selues.
And when he proueth that the saintes be M. More destroyeth the resurreccionin heuen in glorie with Christ all ready sayenge if god be their god they be in heuē / for he is not the god of deed. There he steleth awaye Christes argument where with he proueth the resurreccion / that Abraham and all saintes shuld rise againe & not that their soules were in heuē which doctrine was not yet in the worlde. And with that doctrine he taketh awaye the resurreccion quite / and maketh Christes argument of none effecte. For when Christe allegeth the scripture that god is Abrahams god / and addeth to / that god is not the god of the deed / but of the liuinge and so proueth that Abraham must rise agayne: Mat. 22I deny christes argument and saye with master More / that Abrahā is yet aliue / not because of the resurreccion / but because his soule is in heuen. And in like maner Paules argument vntounto the Corrinthians is nought worth. For whē he saith / if there be no refurreccion / we be of all 1. Cor. 15wretches the most miserablest. Here we hauehave no pleasure / but sorow / care / and oppression. And therfore if we rise not agayne / all our soferinge is in vayne. Nay Paul / thou art vnlerned: goo to master More and lerne a newe waye. Vvebe not most miserable / though we rise not agayne / for oure soules goo to heuen assone as we be deed / and are there in as greate ioye as christ that is rysen agayne And I maruell that Paul had not comforted the Tessalonians with that doctrine / if he had wist it / that y• soules of their deed had bene in ioye / as he did with the resurreccion / 1. Tessa. 4that their deed shuld rise agayne. If y• soules be in heuen in as greate glorie as the angels aftir youre doctrine / shewe me what cause shulde be of the resurreccion.
And when he saith / whether the saintes do it them selues / or by intercession made to god / it maketh no mater / so we be holpe / it appereth bi his doctrine / that all is good that helpeth / though a mā praye vn to the deuell / by whom many be holpe. Now in Christ we hauehave promises of al maner helpe & not in thē. where then is our faith to be holpe by Christ when we hope to be holpe by the merites of saintes? So it appereth that the moare trust we hauehave in saintes / the lesse we hauehave in Christe.
And when he bringeth in a similitude that we praye phisions / though god can helpe vsus / ād Phisiciōstherfore we must praye to saintes. It is not like / for they hauehave naturall remedies for vsus whyth we must vse & not tēpte god. But the saintes hauehave no naturall remedies ner promise of su{per}natural. And therfore it can be but a false supersticious faith. And where no natural remedie is there god hath promised to help them yt beleue in him. And moreuer whē I praye a phisiō or surgion and trust to be holpe by them / I dishonoure god / excepte I first praye to god ād beleue that he will worke with their doctrine and medicines & so receaue mine health of y• hōd of God. And euen so when I praye to man / to helpe me at mine nede / I synne excepte I complayne first to god & shew him my nede & desyre him to moue one or a nother to helpe me / and then when I am holpe / thanke him and receaue it of his hāde / in as moch as he moued the herte of him that holpe me and gaue him wherewith ād a cōmaundemēt to doo it. M. More Christ is not dishonoured because yt they which here preach him truly / shall sitte ād iudge with him. Vindale. That to be true y• scripture testifieth / but what is that to youre purpose that they which be deed can heare vsus and helpe vsus? How be it / if master More shuld describe vsus those setes / Iam sure he wold paynte them aftir the facion of my lorde cardenales holy cheyar / as he doeth God aftir y• similitude of worldely tirātes and not accordinge to his awne worde. For they that be worldely & fleshly minded can but fleshly imagen of god all to gether like vn to y• similitudee of worldely thinges. Master More. The apostles and saintes were prayd so when they were aliue ād god not dishonoured. Tindale. what helpeth that your carnall purpose. I hauehave answered you vn to that and manye thynges moo in the obedience and other places agenst which ye replye not / but kepe youre tune ād vn to al thynge singe kokow / kokow / we be the church and can not erre. The appostles had 1. Cor. 3.gods word for all that they did ād ye none. And yet many dishonoured god and christ for theyr false trust and confidence which they had in the appostles as thou maist se by paul to y• corinthi.
Then he breaketh forth in to opē blasphemy and sayth that it behoueth vsus to praye vn to More dr… ueth from god.saintes and that god will else not heare vsus / for oure presumptuouse malapertenesse. So it is now presumptuous malapertenesse to trust in gods worde and to beleue that god is true. Paul Hebr. 4.teacheth vsus to bebolde to goo vn to god and sheweth vsus good cause in Christe / whi we so maye and that god wold so hauehave vsus. Nether is there any cause to kepe vsus backe / saue that we louelove him not ner trust him. yf a man saye / oure synne shuld kepe vsus backe. I saye if we repent & beleue in Christ / Christ hath taken thē awaye and therfore thorow him we maye be bolde. And Christ saide at his last soper Ihon. xvj. I saye not that I will praye for you vntounto my father Ioan. 16.for my father loueth you. As who shulde saye / be not afrayed ner stonde with out the dores as dastard: but be bold and goo in to my father youre selues in my name / and shew youre complayntes / for he now loueth you / because ye Ephe. 2.louelove my doctrine. And Paul sayth Ephe. ij. we hauehave al an open waye in thorow him / and are now no more forennars or straungers but of y• howshold of god. Of god therfore we be bold as of a most louinge and mercifull father / aboue all the mercy of fathers. And of our sauioure Iesus we be bold / as of a thynge that is onre awne and moare oure awne then oure awne skynnes / and a thynge that is so soft and gentle / that lade we him neuer so moch with oure synnes / he can not be angre ner cast them from off / his backe / so we repent and wyll mend. But Master More hath a nother doctrine to driue vsus from god and to make vsus tremble and be afferde of him.
He likeneth god to worldly tirantes / at whome no man maye come / saue a few flaterars whych ministre vn to them all voluptuousnesse and sarue their lustes at all poyntes which flaterars must first be corrupte with gyftes / yer a man may come at the kinge. Thē he saith / a mā M. More is agēst ye popes profitemaye praye to eueryevery deed man. That me thinketh shuld be agenst the popes doctrine and profite also. For he will hauehave no man prayed to vntyll he hauehave canvesed him / I wold saye / canonised him / and tyll god or at the lest waye the deuell hauehave shewed miracles for him.
Then he bringeth how one that was deed and in the inuisible purgatory holpe a nother yt purgatoriwas aliue and in the visible purgatory This is a straunge case / that a man there maye helpe a nother and not him selfe And a moare straunge case that god heareth a man here for him selfe / beinge in his awne purgatory and helpeth him cleane out / or caseth him if it be to sore. But ād he be in the popes purgatory god will not heare him for him selfe / and that because the pope might hauehave somewhat to deliuer him. And the straungest case of all is that the pope is allmyghty there and god can do there nought at all as the pope can not here in this purgatori. But because this is not gods worde ner like godis doctrine / I thinke it no damnable synne to beleue it poetrie.
Then how ye maye praye for them and to them / tyll they be canonised: and when they he Canonisynge.canonised / but to them only / for then ye be sure yt they be in heuen. By what token? I maye be as sure by the canonisynge / as I am that all the bisshopes which the pope confirmeth / be holy men / and all the doctours that he maketh wel lerned / and that all the prestes which he annoynteth hauehave the holy gost. If ye saye / because of y• miracles / then doo men wronge t… praye for kinge henry of windesore at cambryge and Eton. For he / as men saye doeth miracles. And also if kinge henrye of win sore.the miracles certifie vsus / what nedeth to by the popis canonisynge?
ix.
IN the .ix. he putteth no ieopardy to praye to him that is damned and to steke vpp a candle to him ner I trow vn to the deuell therto / if he might hauehave a vauntage by him.
Then he maketh no ieopardie to doo and beleue whatsoeuer an open multitude called godes church doeth and beleueth. For god will hauehave an open church yt can not erre. For saith he / when the Israhelites fell to Idolatrie / the true church remayned in Hierusalem amonge y• Iewes. First I saye / if a man had no beter vnderstondinge thē M. Mores doctrine / he coud not know whether were y• true church / the Iewes or the Israelites. For the Israelites were in nūbre .v. tymes moo then the Iewes and worsheped god / though as present in the image of a calfe / as the Iewes for the most part / present in y• arcke of testimonie. And secondarily he saith false. For the Iewes were faullen in to open Idolatrie a thousand tymes worse then the Israelites / even in their very temple / as it appereth by open stories and bi the Prophetes: so that for their open Idolatrie / whych they wold for no preachynge of the prophetes amende / their prestes therto resistynge y• prophetes and coragynge the people in their wekednesse / god sent them captiue out of the lande. ye and the people erred in folowynge the scribes and phareses and the open multitude called Gods church / at the comynge of Christ / as it is to se in the gospell cōtrary▪ vn to Master Mores deceyttull poetrye And againe / god reserued him a litle flocke euer in Israel and had euer prophetes there / sometyme openly and some tyme in persecucion / y• eueryevery man must hide him selfe and kepe his faith secret: and euen in the houses of the euell kyngesboth of Iewri and also of Israel he had good people / and that amonge the hie officers / but secretly / as Nycodemus amonge the phareses. So that the very church was eueryevery where oftimes in capciuite and persecuciō vnderunder their brethern / as we be vnderunder oures in the kingedome of the pope.
Then he putteth no ieopardy to worshupe an vnconsecrated hoste. But with what worshupe mē shuld worshepe the consecrated doeth he not teach / nether the vse of that sacrament or any other / ner how ought maie be worsheped but teacheth only yt all thynges maye be worsheped / and sheweth not the right worshepe from the false.
Then he noteth Paule. 1. Corin. 1. how he exhorteth vn to agre only / but not on the trueth or on the good / but only to agre a greate multitude 1. Cor. 1.to gether. O this depe blindenesse. Did not Paul first teach them the true waye? And did he not instructe them anew in the true waye and in the saide epistle rebuke the false confidence that they had in men / the cause of all their dissension and all erroures that were amonge them?
Then he saith / the Iewes had saintes in honoure / as the Patriarkes and Prophetes. Vve teach to dishonoure none: But y• Iewes prayd to none.
More. Christ rebuked not the Phareses for garnishinge the sepulchres of the prophetes but for that they folowed the condicions of them that slew them. Vindale. yes & for their false trust in soch werkes as we doo you And ye Sir thynke that ye deserue heuen in worshepynge the saintes bones / and be as redy to sle them y• beleue / teach and liue as the saintes did / as youre fathers were to sle them: besydes that ye worshepe saintes that folowed Christ aftir the ensample of youre holy cardenall / of whom I doute not but that ye wil make a god in processe of tyme also.
Then repeteth he for forgettynge / how Eliseus bones reysed vpp a deed. That was to cōfirme his preachinge only. For the Israelites / as weked as they were / nether prayed to him / nether kissed his bones / ner offered ner steked vpp candels before him. VvhichWhich thynge if they had done in the kingdome of the Iewes / I doute not but that some good kynge wold hauehave burnt his bones to asshes / as wel as the brasen serpēt / that was as greate a relique as deed bones And Christ shewed miracles at the findynge of the crosse. That was to stablish the faith of Christ es deeth & that it shuld be a memory of his deeth / and not that we shuld trust in ye wod as we doo. For whych false abuse / the hole lande where Christ did his miracles / is destroyed₊
Then he allegeth the woman that was healed / thorow twitchinge of Christes cote / because we shuld worshepe it. Vvhen Christ said hir faith hath made hir hole / not in the cote / but in Christe.
And the miracle was shewed / to prouoke to the worshepinge of the preachynge and not of the cote. Though to kepe the cote reuerently in the memoriall of the dede / to prouoke vn to the faith of Christ were not evell of it selfe. And Paule by youre doctrine / sent his napken to heale the seke / that men shuld shrine his sneueled napken / and not to beleue his preachinge.
x.
THe .x. chapter of sent walary is mete for y• auctor and his worsheple doctrine.
xj.
IN the .xj. he iugleth with this misticall terme latria. I answere / god is no vayne name / but signifieth one that is almightie / all mercifull / all true and good. which he that beleueth will goo to god / to his promises and testament and not folow his awne imaginacions / as Master LatriaMores doctrine teacheth.
He saith that bodyly seruice is not latria. No but bodyly seruice done and referred vn to him which is a spirite / is Idolatria▪
He trusteth yt men know the image from ye saint. I axe M. More whi god did hide Moyses body and diuers other. The Iewes wold Moses.hauehave knowen yt Moses had not bene god an yt Moses bones had not bene Moses. And they knew y• the brasen serpent was not god / and yt the golden calues were not god / and that wod and stone were not god. But Sir there is euer a false imaginacion by. The world because they can not worshepe god in the spirite / to repent off euell and to louelove the lawe and to beleue that he wyll helpe at all nede / therfore runne vn to theyr awne imagynacyons and thinke that god for soch seruyce as they doo to images / will fulfill their worldly desyres: for godly can they nought desyre. Now God is a spirite ād wilbe worsheped in his worde only which is spirituall / and wil hauehave no bodylye seruice. And the ceremonies of the olde law he set vpp / to signifie his worde only and to kepe the people in minde of his testament. So that he which obserueth any ceremonie of any other purpose is an Idolater / that is / an image seruer.
And when he saith / if men axe wemen whether it were oure lady of walsingam or Ipsewich that was saluted of Gabriel or that stode by Christ when he henge on the crosse / they will saye nether nother Thē I axe him what meaneth it / that they saye oure lady of walsynggam praye forme oure lady of Ipswich praye for me our lady of wilsdon praye for me / in so moch that some which reken them selues no small foles / make them roules of halfe an houre lōge / to praye aftir yt maner. And they that so praye / thou maist besure / meane oure lady that stode by ye crosse / and hir that was saluted therto
Then he reherseth many abuses / and how Processionswemen singe songes of ribaudrie in processions in cathedrall churches. vn to which abhominacious yet our holy church that can not erre / consent with full delectacion. For on the on syde they will not amend the abuse. And on the other syde they hauehave hired. M. More to proue with his sophistrie / that the thynges ought not to be put doune.
Then he bringeth in how the wild Irish ād wyld irish welch menthe welch praye / when they goo to stele. And axeth whether / because they abuse prayar / we shuld put all prayenge downe. Naye M. More / it is not like. prayar is gods commaundement / ād where faith is / there must prayar nedes be and cā not be awaye. how be it / thinges that are but mennes tradicions and all indifferent thinges which we maye be as well with▪ out as with / maye welbe put doune for their dishonouringe of god / thorow the abuse. we hauehave turned kissinge in the church in to the pax. Vve hauehave put done watchinge all night in the church on saintes even… / for the abuse. And Ezechias brake y• brasen serpent .iiij. of kinges. xviij. for the abuse. And euen so / soch processions and the multitude Ezechiasof ceremonies and of holidayes to / might as wel be put downe. And the ceremonies that be left wold hauehave their significacions put to them & y• people shuld be taught them. And on y• sōdayes gods word wolde be truly preached, which if his holy church wold do / nether the Irish ner yet the welsh wold so praye. By which prayenge and other like blindnesse / Master More maye se / that buzssynge in latine on the holy dayes helpeth not y• hertes of the people. And I wondre that M. More can laugh at it and not rather wepe for compassion / to se the soules for which christ shed his bloude / to perish. And yet I beleue that youre holy church wil not refuse at ester to receaue the rithes of all that soch blind people robbe / as wel as they dispence with all false gotten good that is brought them / And will laye the ensample of Abraham and Melchisede… for them.
xij.
IN the .xij. he allegeth that. S. Hierom and Augustine prayed to sayntes / and concludeth / that if any secte be one better thē a nother they be the beste. I āswere / though he coude proue that they prayed to saintes / yet coude he not proue him selfe therby of the best secte ner that it were good therfore to praye to saintes. For first the apostles / patriarkes and prophetes ☜were sure to befolowed / which prayed to nonne. And agayne / a good man might erre in many thynges and not be damned / so that his erroure were not directly agenst the promises that are in christes bloude / nether that he held them maliciously. As if I beleued that the soules were in heuen immediatly and that they praid for vsus / as we doo one for a nother / and did beleue that they herd all that we sprake or thought / ād vppon that prayed to some saint / to praye for me / to put him in remembraunce only / as I praye my neyboure / and with out other trust or cōfidence and though al be false / yet shuld I not be damned / so longe as I had no obstinacie therin / for the faith that I hauehave in christes bloude shuld swalowe vp that erroure / tyll I were better taught / but master More shuld hauehave alleged the places where they prayed vn to sayntes
And then he allegeth agenst him self / that y• miracles were wrought by god / to confirme his doctrine and to testifie that the preacher therof was a true mesinger. But the miracles that cōfirme praienge to saintes / doo not cōfirme gods doctrine. But mānes imaginacions. For there was neuer man yet that came forth and saide / loo / the soules of the sayntes that be deed be in heuen in ioye with christe and god wil that ye praye to them. In token wherof / I doo thys or that miracle₊
And when he triumpheth a litle after / as though all were wonne saynge / if oure old holy doctoures were false and their doctrine vntrue and their miracles fayned / let them come forth and doo miracles them selues and proue oures fayned. Sir / ye hauehave no doctours that did miracles to stablish youre worshepynge of images and so forth. youre doctrine is but the opinion of faithlesse people / which to confirme the deuel hath wrought moch sotilte. And as for the miracles done at sayntes graues and at the presens of reliques / as longe as true miracles endured and vntyll the scripture was autentickly reaceaued / wher done to confirme the preachinge yt soch saintes had preached / whyle they were alyue. And therto the miracles which witches doo / witcheswe cōfoūde not with other miracles / But with scripture we proue them not of god / but of the deuel / to stablish a false fayth and to leade from god / as youre doctrine doeth. And likewise where we can confunde youre false doctryne wyth autenticke and manifest scripture / there nede we to doo no miracle. we bringe gods testamēt confirmed wyth miracles for al that we doo / ād ye ought to require no moare of vsus₊
And in like maner do ye firste geue vsus autenticke scripture for youre doctrine If ye hauehave ☞no scripture come forth ād preach youre doctryne and confirme it wyth a myracle. And then if we brynge not autenticke scripture agenst you or confounde youre myracle wyth a greater as Moses dyd the sorsecars of Egypte / we wyll beleue you₊
And when he speaketh of tryal of miracles what doo ye to trie youre miracles / whether they be true or fayned. And besydes y• / gods worde which shuld be the triall / ye refuse and do al that ye can to falsifie it₊
And when he speaketh of sectes of heretykes / sectesI āswere / that they which ye call heretikes beleue all in one christe / as the scripture teacheth / and ye in all thinge saue christe. And in youre false doctrine of youre awne fayninge with out scripture / ye hauehave as many sundrie sectes as all Monkes and freres and studentes in diuinite in all youre vniuersites. For first yer ye come to diuinite / ye be all taught to denye the saluacion that is in christe. And none of you teacheth a nother so moch as the articles of youre fayth But folow all most eueryevery man a sundrie doctoure and in the scripture his awne brayne / framinge it euer after the false opynyons whych he hath professed yer he come at it₊
And when he saith that god wold sone vttur fayned miracles. I answere / God hath had at all tymes one or a nother to improue youres wyth gods worde. And I axe whether Mahometes fayned myracles hauehave not preuayled .viii hundred yeres. And youre abhominable dedes worse then the turkes testifye that ye louelove the trouth lesse thē they. And vn to them yt louelove not The cause of false miraclesthe trueth hath god promised by the mouth off paul. ii. Thessolo . ii. to send thē aboundaūce ād strength of false miracles / to stablysh them in lies and to dysceaue them and leade them out off the waye / so that they can not but perysh / for their vnkyndnesse / that they loued not the trueth / to lyue therafter and to honoure god in thir membres₊
And when he saith the heretykes hauehave no myracles. I answere / they nede not / so longe as they hauehave autenticke scripture₊
And when he sayth God sheweth no miracles for the doctours of the heretikes. No moare he nedeth not / for all they preach / ys the scripture confirmed with miracles / and receaued many hundred yeres agoo. And therefore God nedeth not to shew miracles for them whyle they lyue to strength theyr preachynge. And to shew myracles for them when they be deed / to moue the people to praye to them ād to put their trust in them / as ye doo in youres / were to make thē Idoles and not sayntes₊
And when he speaketh of miracles done in theyr church in tyme of persecucyon. I answere / those were not the miracles of youre church but of them that beleued the scripture and sofered for it / as the heretykes doo now. For ye had neuer persecucyon for youre false doctrine / which ye hauehave brought in besides the scripture / ner any that died for it: But ye persecute and slee / whosoeuer wyth Gods worde doeth rebuke it. And as for youre awne myracles of whych ye make youre boost / ye hauehave fayned them so grosly thorow out all youre legendes of sayntes / that ye be now asshamed of them and wold fayne be ryd of them if ye wyst how with honeste / and so wolde ye of a thousand thynges which ye hauehave fayned. And the cause why heretykes fayne no miracles as ye do / ys that they walke puerly and entend no falshed₊
And whi y• deuel doeth none for thē / ys that they cleue fast to gods worde whych the deuell hateth and can doo no miracles to further it / But to hindre it / as he doeth with you. Reade the stories of youre popis and cardenales / & se whether the deuell hath not holpe them vntounto their hie dignities. And loke whether youre holy bysshopes come any other wyse vn to their promociōs / thē by seruinge ye deuell / in settinge all christendome at variaunce / in sheddynge bloude / in bringynge the comen wealth to tyranny and in teachinge christen princes to rule moare cruelly then did euer any hethen / contrary vn to the doctrine of christe
And as for the turkes and sarasenes that ye speake of / I answere that they were christen once / at the lest waye for the most parte. And because they had no louelove vn to the trouth to liue ther aftir as ye hauehave not / God did send them false miracles to carye them out of the right waye as ye be. And as for the Iewes / whi they byde out / is only because they hauehave sett vpp their awne rightewesnesse / as ye hauehave / and therfore cānot admitte the rightewesnesse that is in Christes bloude / as ye can not and as ye hauehave for sworne it.
And when he saith / in that they hauehave miracles and the heretikes none / it is a sure signe y• they be the true church and the heretikes not. Had ye gods word with youre miracles and the heretikes doctrine were with out / thē it were true. But now because ye hauehave miracles with out gods worde / to confirme youre false imaginacions / and they which ye call heretikes hauehave Gods word confermed with miracles / fyve hundred yeares to gether / it is a sure signe that they be the true church and ye not / in as moch also as christ saith / that the disceauers shall come with miracles: ye ād in his name therto / as ye doo. For when christ sayth their shall come in my name that shall saye he him selfe is Christe / who is that saue youre pope / that wilbe christes vicar and yet maketh men to beleue in him selfe / in his bolles and calues skinnes ād Mat. 24.in what soeuer he listeth. And who be those false annoynted that shall come with miracles to disceaue y• electe if it were possible / saue youre pope with his gresiamus?
And when he repeteth his miracles / to proue that the old holy doctours were good men in the right beleffe. I answere agayne / that the doctours which planted gods worde watered it with miracles / while they were aliue. And when they were deed God shewed miracles at their graues / to confirme the same / as of Heliseus. And that continued till the scripture was ful receaued ād autenticke. But ye can not shew / ner shall / any doctoure which beinge aliue preached youre false doctrine confirminge it with miracles / as god doeth his scripture
Then saith he / God had in the old testamēt good men full of miracles / whose liuinge a man might be bold to folow and whose / doctrine a man might be bold to beleue be reason of their miracles / and then iugleth sayenge: if god shuld not so now in the new testament hauehave doctours with miraches to confirme their doctrine and liuinges / but contrary wise shuld bringe to passe or sofre to be brought to passe with false miracles / that his church shuld take ypocrites for saintes / which expounded the scripture falsly / thē shuld he disceaue his church and not hauehave his spirite present in hys church / to teach them all trouth / as he promised them. I answere / god so fereth not his church to be disceaued: But he so fereth the popes church because they hauehave no whi the pope fell.louelove vntounto the trouth / to liue after the lawes of god / but consent vntounto all iniquite / as he sofered the church of Mahomete. Moare ouer the gift of miracles was not all waye amonge the preachers in the olde testament. For Ihon baptist dyd no miracle at all. The miracles were ceased longe yer christe. And as for you in the popes kingdome had neuer man that ether confirmed gods doctrine / or youre awne with myracles. All youre sayntes be first saintes when they be deed and then doo first miracles / to confirme tithes & offerynges & the poetry which ye hauehave fayned / and not true doctrine. For to cōfirme what preachynge doeth Saint thomas of canterburie miracles? He preached neuer ner S. Thomas of cāterburyliued any other life then as our cardenall / and for hys mischeue died a mischeuous deeth. And of our cardenall / if we be not diligent / they wyll make a sainte also and make a greater relike of his showe then of the others₊
And of youre deed saintes lat vsus take one Thomas de aquinofor an ensample. Thomas de aquino is a saynt full of miracles / as freces tell. And hys doctrine was / that our lady was borne in originall sinne. DunceAnd dunce doynge no miracle at all / because I suppose no mā wotteth where he lieth / improueth yt with his sophistrie ād ▪ affirmeth ye cōtrary. And of y• cōtrary hath the pope / for the deuotion of that the graye frires gaue him / ye maye well thynke / made an article of the fayth₊☜
And finally as for the miracles / they ar to …ake a man astonied ād to wonder and to drawe Miracleshim to heare the worde ernistly / rather then to write it in his herte. For whosoeuer hath no no ther fealynge of y• law of god that it is good / then because of miracles / the same shall beleue in Christe / as did Simon Magus and Iudas: and as they that came out of Egipte with Moses / and fell awaye at eueryevery temptacion / & shall hauehave good werkes like vn to our popes / bisshopes and cardenales. And therfore when the scripture is fully receaued / there is no nede of miracles. In so moch that they which wyll not beleue Moses and the prophetes when the scripture is receaved / the same wilbe no true beleuers by the reason of miracles / though one arose frō deeth to life to preach vn to them by the testimonie of Christe.
And agayne / how doeth S. Hierom / Augustine / Bede and many other old doctoures that were before the pope was cropt vpp in to the c… sciences of men and had sent forth his demnable sectes / to preach him vnderunder the name of christe / as christ prophisied it shuld be / expoūde this texte / thou arte Peter and vppon this rocke I wyll byld my church / and this texte / Peter sede Mat. 16.my shepe / and all power is geuen me in heuen & in erth / and innumerable soch textes cleane contrary Ioan. 21vntounto al those new old holy doctours that hauehave made y• pope a god? They knew of no power that man shuld hauehave in the kyngdome of Christ / then to preach Christ truly. They knew of no power that the pope shuld hauehave to send to purgatory or to deliuer thēce / nether of any pardons ner of any soch confessiō as they preach & teach / nether were many that are articles with you / articles of their faith. They al preached forgeuenesse of synnes thorow repentaunce to wa… de the lawe and faith in oure sauioure Christe / as all the scripture playnly doeth and can no notherwise be taken / and as al the hertes of as many as louelove y• law of god / doo fele / as surely as the fingre feleth the fire hote. ♣ ☜