The Unreasonableness of the Separation Made Apparent 2, Part 1 · Reason 2
The second Reason.
Fr. Iohnson.
None may heare, or have any spirituall communion with the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
Such is the ministery of the Church-assemblies of England.
Ergo none may heare, or have any Spirituall communion with the same.
W. Bradshaw
I grant the proposition, taking the words in the plain & common sence: to wit, understanding by the ministery of Antichrists apostasy, the administration & dispensation of the things of Antichrist: otherwise to communicate spiritually with any ministers whatsoever onelyonly in the holy things of Christ, is not to communicate with the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy, no though the ministers be ministers thereof. Neither doe his five reasons following, whereby he needlessely prooves his proposition, proove it unlawfull to heare, or have any spirituall communion with the ministers of Antichrist then, when they minister the things of Christ.
Here Mr. Can telleth us, that Mr. Bradshaw begins with a manifest untruth. viz. that to communicate spiritually with the ministers of Antichrist in holy things, is not to communicate in his Apostasy. And that this is an untruth, Mr. Can thus prooves: If this be true, then unlawfull ministers may lawfully be communicated with. But this, saith he, cannot be, & that he prooveth, because it was unlawfull to communicate with Corah, or with Vzziah, tho' they burnt true incense; or with Ieroboams Priests, tho' they offered true sacrifices.
1. His proposition is denyed. For neither will it follow, that no unlawfull minister may lawfully be communicated …ith, all that communicate with any minister of Antichrists Apostasy in any holy thing of God, doe communicate with him in his Antichristian Apostasy, howsoever they were guilty therein of sinne otherwise. Nor yet againe; tho' it be granted, that some may communicate in some holy things with a minister of Antichrists Apostasy, and yet not communicate with the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy, will it thence follow, that an unlawfull minister may Lawfully be communicated with.
2. His Assumption is not prooved by the instances produced. It is no good consequence. It was not Lawfull to communicate with Corah, Vzziah, & Ieroboams priests in some things. Therefore with no unlawfull ministers in any thing.
Besides, what he saith of Ieroboams Priests & sacrifices, that they were true sacrifices; if by true he meane reall and essentiall sacrifices; so were those that the Iews offered to devills and all heathen theire idoles; and being so understood the instant is idle. For that is not sufficient to make them holy things. Or if by true he meane legall, and truely religious, it is false that he affirmeth of them; they were in themselves not holy things, but unholy and abominable sacrileges. And the absurdity of the inference will easily appeare. It was unlawfull to communicate with Ieroboams priests in their idolatrous sacrifices. Therefore it is unlawfull to communicate with any false minister in the holy things of God.
VV. Bradshaw▪
For the proofe of the Assumption he makes a terrible muster of no lesse then 7. Arguments. But let us pull up our Spirits, and see what is in them, one by one,
Fr. Iohnson.
The ministery of Priests and Deacons ordained by Prelates thereunto, is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
The ministery of the Church-assemblys of England is such a ministery.
Ergo. It is of Antichrists Apostasy.
VV. Bradshaw
He brought this very Argument to proove the first reason, & now he brings it againe for a proofe of his second reason: and is not this a learned kinde of reasoning? when he will make a shew of multitudes of reasons against us, and yet all of them come to one issue, and lie upon one ground, and depend upon one proofe; so that the overthrow of on… i… the overthrow of all: but his childish vanity herein, we shall the better perceave, in that which followeth.
Both the proposition and assumption are false. For
1. It is not necessary, that the ministery of Priests & Deacons, though ordained by Antichrist himselfe, should be the ministery of his Apostasy: but notwithstanding his ordination, their ministery may be the ministery of Iesus Christ, as was the ministery of Luther, Husse, Wickliff and others.
2. The ministery of such manner, of Priests & Deacons, as the Prelates ordain, (or by the Laws ought to ordain) is the tru ministery of Iesus Christ, & for the substance thereof, directly contrary to the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
3. The ministery of our Church-assemblys, is not (as I have shewed before) the ministery of Priests & deacons properly so called, but of pastors & teachers.
The proposition he prooveth as followeth, by two Arguments.
Fr. Iohnson.
The ministery of Deacons and Priests which accounts it selfe to be Christs, and yet was not set by Christ himselfe in his Church, for the worke of the ministery, is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
Such is the ministery of Deacons and Priests, ordained by the Prelates thereunto.
Ergo it is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
VV. Bradshaw
This argument is that which he bringeth for the first reason of all: and here he brings it to proove that which before was brought to proove it. For he prooves, that our ministery is not set by Christ in his Church, by this, because it is the ministery of priests and Deacons, and so by consequent of Antichrists Apostasy: Here he prooves, that the ministery of priests and Deacons is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy, because it is a ministery, that was not sett by Christ in his Church. Thus doth he most grosly runne round in a circle; as if I should proove, that his ministery is unlawfull; because he is a Schismatick; and that he is a Schismatick, because his ministery is unlawfull.
The 2. reason, whereby he prooves his proposition, followeth.
Fr. Iohnson.
2. If the Prelates of the Church of England have such offices and government, as be speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy, then the ministery ordained by them thereunto, must needs be the ministery of that Apostasy.
But the Prelates of the Church of England have such offices & government, as be speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy. Ergo
The ministery ordained by them, is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy▪ The consequent is manifest, because the fruit must needes be as the tree is, Math. 7.16. and who can bring a cleare thing out of filthynes. Iob 14.4.
The assumption is prooved.
1. Whosoever (besides Christ) have such offices and government, whereby they claime to be spirituall Lords, they have the offices and government which are speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy, and are indeed very Ant…christs themselves.
But such are the Prelates of the Church of England.
Therefore they have such offices and government, as are speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy.
The propos t on is prooved by those places of Scripture, which teach there is but one spirituall Lord, the Lord Iesus Christ.
The assumption is prooved by the Laws and Statutes of the land, wherein they are called Lords spirituall, and in theire Canons they take upon them to prescribe their own ordinances to the Church, for the worship of God; & binde the spirite and conscience to the acknowledgement and approbation thereof, & to give the holy ghost.
2. The offices and government of such Bishops, as are over Diocessan & Provinciall Churches, and exercise Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over all the ministers and people therein, are speciall parts of Antichrists Apostasy.
But such are the Prelates of the Church of England.
Therefore, they have such offices and government, as be specially parts of Antichrists Apostasy.
VV. Bradshaw
1. I deny the consequence of the proposition of the first Syllogisme. The off…cers and governers of Antichrists Apostasy, may and have ordained some things that are Chr…stian. Neither doth the saying of Christ or Iob proove the consequence. For though it should be granted unto them, that the governers of Antichrists Apostasy have ordained this ministery, yet doth it not follow, that it is therefore a proper and meere fruit of Antichrist, but may be an accidentall effect, as are many other things, which he ordaineth, agreeable to Christs own ordinances. So that he mu t proove, that our ministery ordained by the Pope or Bishops, doth as properly flow from the nature of theire office and government, as figgs from a figg tree, or grapes from a vine, or filthy water from a f…ule fountain: the contrary whereof is in this case most evident. For leave the bare names and titles, and consider our ministery in all the essentiall parts and offices thereof, and it is as possible either for a presbytery, or for any particular Church, such in constitution as theire own, to ordaine the like ministery in all points and respects, with all the defects and faults thereof.
2. Concerning the proofe of the Assumption, the proposition may be denyed: it being one thing to bee, and on other thing to claime to be; for every one is not that which he claimeth to be. The instances alledged to proove the assumption, either are false, or proove it not. The Laws may give those titles to men which they doe not claime; neither doe either theire Canons or practise shew, that they prescribe their own ordinances for worship, or propound to bind mens consciences to the acknowledgement of any such matter. They professe the contrary, and urge theire own ordinances onelyonly under the name of things indifferent. Though therefore in error of judgement, they may, and happily doe command such ordinances of their own, as are divine worship, & in such a manner, as it bindeth conscience, (which Maister Iohnsons own Church in many cases may doe, except they thinke themselves priviledged from error) yet they protesting against any such power and autority, they cannot be said therein to arrogate the office of Spirituall Lords; in that sense at least, in which Christ is said to be the onelyonly spirituall Lord. And tho' in theire ordination of ministers, they use, as a ceremoniall speech, to say, Receave the holy Ghost; and therein peradventure offer some force to the Scripture, unto which they allude, yet they disclaime all actuall power and autority of giving the person, or gifts of the holy Ghost, unto men.
It shall be needles in this controversy, to spend time in the defence of the calling of Bishops, any further then the necessity of the argument requires: onelyonly for the further clearing of the truth, in the differences of them of the Separation, not onelyonly from the Bishops, but from the other sort of ministers allso, which doe not approove of their callings, I offer these points unto them, to consider of advisedly.
1 Whether the Supreame Magistrate have not power to oversee and governe all the severall Churches within his dominions; yea whether he be not bound so to doe.
2. Whether for his further help and assistance herein, he may not make choise of grave, learned be reverend men, to assist him in the same government.
3 Whether by vertue of his power these persons, thus calld to assist the supreame Magistrate, may not Lawfully try the gifts of all the severall ministers within his Dominions, & give publick approbation of the worthy, and inhibite those, which they finde unworthy, from the execution of their ministery: and whether they may not visite the severall ministers and Churches, convent them before them, examine them, how they have behaved themselves in theire places, & pun…sh the blame worthy.
4. Whether for the more easy and orderly government of the said Churches, so far forth as appertaineth to him, he may not divide his Kingdome (as ou…s is) into provinces, assigneing over each of them under himselfe, some special ma…strate, f…t for learning & experience, to over see & governe all the generall & particular chu…ches there: & whether he may not subdivide those provinces into diocesses, assigneing allso unto them, other more inferior officers, under him, & his provinciall officers, to oversee the severall churches within such & such a p…ecinct.
5. Whether it doe destroy the nature of a ministeriall or a particular tru visible church that many of them should appertain to one provinciall or diocessan government; tho' in that respect they should be held and reputed, but for one P…ovinciall or Diocessan Church.
6. Whether Antichrist, having usurped the Kings supremacy and taken into his hands this authority, and corrupted the same, hath made it now unlawfull for the Magistrate to execute the same in manner and forme aforesaid: or whether the jurisdiction aforesaid doe not directly and properly belong to the civill Magistrate; and not to Antichrist, but by usurpation: and whether his usurpation of this office, can make it a part of his apostasy, in those places, where it is restored againe to the supreame Magistrate.
7. Whether the supreame Magistrate, recovering this his right from Antichrist, and together with it happily taking allso to himselfe, something that belongs to the Kingdome of Ant…christ, and executing the same, either in his own person, or by others, together with his own Lawfull right, whether, I say, this doe destroy his own Lawfull right: and whether the subject is ever the lesse bound to subject themselves, unto the same right either in his own person, or his substitute.
Hitherto he hath endeavoured to proove the proposition of the first argument, whereby he would confirm te Assumption of the second reason: & now he setts upon the proofe of the Assumption; namely: That the present ministery of the Church assemblies of England, is the ministery of Deacons and Priests ordained by Prelates thereunto. This, he saith, is prooved by the Canons, constitut…ons and observation of our Church. And this he confirmeth first with a long tedious and idle rehearsall of the forme of ordination of our ministers, bestowing cost to print in a manner our whole booke of ordination.
2. By certain of the late Canons pressing subscription, conformity, and an acknowledgement of the Lawfullnes of the calling of Bishops and of theire ordination.
3. By certain sharp speeches of some martyrs, and of some others of our own nat…on against the Arch-Bishops, Bishops, and other of the Clergy of theire times: in the relation of which points he spend some 5. leaves: wherein still he runns in a circle, begging one of his arguments to proove an other: So that one of his arguments are as g…o… as all, and all no better then one.
This may suffice for answere.
1. That if all particulars mentioned in the booke of ordination should be strictly & precisly practised (as allways they are not) yet there is not one clause in the whole forme of ordination by him cited, that doth necessarily argue them which are so ordained, to be true and proper Priests and Deacons: but if there were, and if allso the ministers ordained were annointed with oile, if theire crowns were shaven, and they had power given to offer the abominable idole of the Masse, yet this is not sufficient to argue, that theire ministery, is the ministery of Priests, &c. except in theire ministery they should execute the same. If their own Church should ordaine one to the ministery of a Pastor, & should in their ordination require him, onelyonly to preach the word sincerely, and to administer the Sacraments according to Christs institution; and yet in his practise and execution, he should doe nothing but sing Masse and Mattens, and they should accept of this ministery & no other at his hands; would any that is in his witts say, that this mans ministery is the ministery of a Pastor, because he was in formality of words and ceremonys ordained to that office? how much lesse can any man say, that our ministery is the ministery of Priests, when they doe not onelyonly execute any such office, but the cleane contrary; and when in theire ordination not so much as any part of a Priests office (properly so taken) is assigned unto them, but onelyonly the name; & not so much as their name in their orders written in Latine, which are to interpreate the meaning of the English word.
2. Though the ministers should doe all things required by the Canons, & should be every way answerable unto them: and though the testimonys of our martyrs and others were yeelded to be true, yet must he strive hard, that can from either or both argue, that our ministers are indeed Priests, except in a metaphoricall and borrowed speech.
Out o… all this whole piece, Maister Can calleth and cutteth out onelyonly two or three shreds, to be snipping and snatching at, after his manner.
1. It is certaine (saith he) that the ministery of Priests & Deacons ordained by Antichrist, is the ministery of his apostasy, and not Christs, as he prophanely affirmes, for he makes them not according to the institution prescribed of God; but wholly after a wicked and divelish device of hi… own braine: so that the same is a meere fruit of the beast and false Prophet; and no accidentall effect, but a most cursed thing, which doth as properly flow from his defection, as figgs from the figg tree, or a childe from the seed of the parents.
B…t Maister Ca…s p…positi…n here, if …is argument be syllogistically framed, is d…yed. For though Antichrist should have ordained them after so wicked and divelish a manner; yet it will not thence fo…low, but that such ministery as they, notwithstanding such ordination, may execute and exercise, may be the ministery of Christ, even of pastors and teachers, as hath ben before said. And Mr. Cans certaine avowchment will not be taken therefore upon his word, till he bring us some better proofe.
2. As for Luther, (saith he) Husse, Wickliffe, & others, whereof he speakes; it is but an absurd and childish begging of the question: Seeing it cannot be prooved, that they receaved a lawfull & ordinary ministery from the Church of Rome.
1. If this crackbraind fellow did but understand, either what his adversary answereth, or what himselfe saith, he would never in this shamelesse manner foame out his own folly, and abuse both himselfe and those that reade him. He saith that Maister Bradshaw childishly beggs the question, who neither keepeth himselfe to the question, nor understandeth what the begging of the question mean …. He beggeth the question, that requireth that to be granted him that is in question, for the proofe of that he saith. Maister Bradshaw onelyonly in way of answere to Maister Iohnsons proposition affirmeth, that the ministery exercised by some that have been ordained by Antichrist; (for example, Luther, Wickl ffe, Husse, &c.) may be the ministery of Christ. Which without begging the question must still stand good, till Maister Iohnson or Maister Can have prooved the contrary.
2. He saith that therefore Ma…ster Bradshaw begs the question, because it cannot be prooved, that these men before mentioned receaved a Lawfull ordinary ministery from the Church of Rome: when as, neither is this the question, whither they did receave a Lawfull ordinary ministery from the Curch of Rome, or no; nor doth Maister Bradshaw say any such thing.
3. To that of Maister Bradshaw that the ministery of such Priests & Deacons as the Prelates ordaine, or by the Laws ought to ordaine is the true ministery of Iesus Christ: and for the substance thereof directly contrary to Antichrists apostasy.
To this▪ I say, Maister Can thus replys.
He saith, hat the ministery of such Priests and Deacons, which the Prelates ordaine, are the true ministers of Iesus Christ. VV…at every dumb dog, & all those 60. 80. and 100. which are made at a clap, and sent forth as rogues ad masterlesse servants, to get benefices where they can, havi…g no particular congregation, &c. Yea, now all againe are justifyed, for he speaks without exception or limitation.
Where fi…st, he clippeth away some o… Maister Bradshaws words: then to make him say, what he would have him say, he speaketh non sense himselfe: and maketh him likewise to doe the like, in saying, as he saith, that the ministery of such Priests and Deacons, which the Prelates ordaine, are the ministers of Iesus Christ: And so after a parcell of his base and scurrilous language, taken up it seemes, at second hand from some sory broker like himselfe; not free from just suspition of grosse untruth, he concludeth with a loud lye, that Maister Bradshaw speaketh without exception or limitation: which is manifestly false. For he saith expresly; that the Prelates ordaine, or by Law ought to ordaine.
2. Maister Bradshaw doth not avouch all ministers made by the Prelates to be Lawfull ministers, but that the ministery of Priests and Deacons such as our Law intendeth (which are in effect no other then pastors and teachers, nor have appeared to be any other▪ by ought that hath hitherto been objected) can not therefore be d…nyed to be the ministery have ben ordained by the Pre…ates. For, as for those that have no particular congregation, we have in this controversy nothing to doe with them; since the same, (which we are inforced to minde Maister Can so oft off, that we may keepe him from ranging; because he still forgets himselfe where he is, and what he is about) is concerning Separation from our Church-assemblys, and consequently of the ministers of particular congregations; which they are not, which have none.
Nor doth this therefore any way crosse or contradict, either that which some other, he saith, have said, that all Ecclesiasticall officers ought to be chos…n by the free choise of the people. (which yet would be hard for Maister Can it may be, to proove) or that which Maister Bradshaw himselfe saith el…where; that some ministers have ben permitted among us, that have not had ordination from the Prelates: for all Maister Cans loud cry of daubing, rotten stuff, &c. And much lesse doth it inferre, what he would hence squize out; that if men will be Priests of our Churches, they may come in any way; and it is no matter how they be ordained, nor who ordaine them, nor whether they be ordained or no: His words indeed, saith Maister Can; implie no lesse. Which being but a base calumny of one, who by his course constantly held here, evidently sheweth, that he litl…e regards what he saith, tho' never so manifestly false; so he may any way utter that, that may cast some aspersion upon his adversary: and having in the former passage, by explanation of his meaning, sufficiently cleared it, I let it passe, & leave it with the rest of the like kind, for Maister Can to answere, when all those shall be reckoned with, that either love or make lyes.
To the same reckoning I referre that allso which next followeth, well deserving the whetstone, where he saith, that Maister Bradshaw never brings either Scrip…ures, examples, reasons or humane testimonys, to confirme any one thing, whereof he writes. Which allbeit he had not done, yet he might have done as much as could justly be exacted of him, being in place of an answerer to an othe…s arguments, whose proper office is to answere, either by distinction, or deniall: yet whither he have never brought any of these, to confirme any one thing, that he writes of, let any Reader consider advisedly; and if he finde it not to be a most notorious untruth, let him return me the lye, and I will willingly undergoe it.
4. Passing by certain froathy demands (as he tearmeth them) which yet to men of und…rstanding will appeare to be substantiall, and very pertinent to the matter of Mai ter Iohnso…s Arg…ment and the proofe of his Assumption; Th…t the ministery of the Church-assemblies of England, is the ministery of Deacons and Priests, by the Bishops ordained thereto, &c. He replyeth onelyonly this; that Maister Bradshaw bewrayeth greate ignorance, in not putting a difference between a ministery, and the execution of it; which are distinct things. And if he had not wanted witt, he would not so absurdly have confounded the one with the other: that it is possible, that one should be a tru Ecclesiasticall officer, and yet never doe the services thereof: as a woman is really a wife immediately upon her mariage, before she performe any duty yea though she should never pe…forme any. And Maister Bradshaw therefore was deceived to thinke if one be a false minister by ordination that the administration of Lawfull things, makes him true. Which he sheweth by an instance of some other then of Aarons house admitted to be Priests, administering without exception, and yet no Lawfull officers notwithstanding. And againe, that one ordained a Pastor according to Christs instituiion, hath certainly a Lawfull ministery, howsoever things should fall out afterward, yea tho' he should sing Masse and Mattens▪ as a person may be a servant, or subject truly and fully, and yet doe afterwards the actions of theeves, rebels, traiters, &c.
But neither was Maister Bradshaw such a silly ignoramus, as Maister Can would make of him, as not to be able to distinguish betweene ordination and execution; nor such a loose and unlimitted disputant, as to wander, as Maister Cans wonted manner is, from the matter he hath in hand. The po…nt in present agitation is concerning the ministery of Priests and Deacons, such a… …y our Prela es are ordained, what it is for the substance of it: which Maister Iohnson t proove it to be the ministery of Pri…sts and Deacons, properly so tearmed, & no… of pastors and teachers, alledgeth the booke of ordination and certain canons & constitutions, wherein conformity, and some other such things are enjoined. To wh…ch Maister Bradshaw as you have heard, answereth, that neither any o…e clause in the whole forme of ordination argueth them, so to be as he saith; nor tho' there had been in theire ordination power given them to sing and say Masse and Mattens would it proove, therefore theire ministery to be the ministery of Priests, properly so tearmed, unles they did execute t…e same no more then the ministery of Maister Can would be deemed the ministery of a Pastor, though being ordained to that office he should doe nothing but sing Masse and Mattens.
The difference therefore is here to be put, not betweene the ministery, and the execution of it, as Maister Can speakes; but betweene the en…rance into it, and the substance of it. The latter whereof is the main matter at …re…ent in question between Maister Iohnson and Maister Bradshaw, as Maister Can was admonished, had he either wit or will to take notice of it, both at the very first entrance, in answere to the first reason; and againe in answere to the first argument, for the Assumption of the second reason. 92.
VV. Bradshaw.
The other A…guments, whereby he prooveth the maine Assumption of the 2. reason. viz. that the ministery of the Church-assemblys of England, is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy follow.
Fr. Iohnson.
The ministery of the prelacy professing it selfe to be Christs, & yet standing in such an estate, as it doth not obey Iesus Christ in his ordinance of ministery, worship and government of the Church, as theire Prophet, Priest and King, is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy.
Such is the present ministery of the Church-assemblys of England.
Ergo, it is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy.
VV. Bradshaw
To the proposition I answere, that not onelyonly the ministery of the Prelates, but of a presbytery, or any Church whatsoever, that stands in such an estate, is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy: and not onelyonly the ministery of the Prelates, but any other ministery el…e upon earth, may stand in such an estate, as that it may in divers and sundry particulars, of ignorance or infirmity, disobey Christ in his own ordinances of ministery, worship and government of the Church, & in that respect, and so farre forth be the ministery of Antichrists apostasy; & yet be also the ministery of Iesus Christ.
Hee prooves the proposition by 19. places of Scripture; to as much purpose as if by as many testimonys he should proove that it is day light at high noone: Except he meane, that that is the ministry of Antichrists apostasy, which doth not in every particular obey Christ in his own ordinances of ministery. But his 19. proofes have no more force to proove it, then to proove that there is a man in the moone, as any man may see, that hath nothing else to doe, but examine them.
2. I deny the Assumption. The ministery of our Church-assemblys, though it he ordained by the Prelates, and be subiect unto them, yet it is not theire ministery, but the ministery of Iesus Christ; they preaching his word and administring his Sacraments: and it doth, if it be answerable to the Law, obey Christ in all the maine essentiall parts of his own ordinances of ministery, &c. And in all other points (for ought he can proove to the contrary) as far as the Lord hath revealed the truth unto them which exercise the same.
Fr. Iohnson.
The Assumption is evident by that which hath been sayd in the 1. Reason, & theire constitution it selfe shews it: in that they are so far from obeying Christ in his ordinances of ministery, and as that they execute the ministery and government of an other Arch-Bishop, and Lord-Bishop then Christ; of an Arch-Deacon, parson, vicar, &c. as also in their reading prayers out of a booke, & observing other humane inventions, and in theire Church government according to Canons, Courts, &c. which were never appointed by Christ.
VV. Bradshaw
To omitt, that here againe he begs his first reason to proove his second: if the assumption have no better evidence, the evidence is false, as I have made it evident in the answere to the first reason.
Neither hath he there or elswhere (in any of those other of theire writings which he sends us unto pag. 40.) prooved, that our ministers doe not obey Christ, in his ordinances of ministery, worship and government: yea tho' it should be granted that they execute the ministery and government of other Arch-Bishops and Lord-Bishops besides Christ; and tho' they should be Arch-Deacons, parsons, vicars, reading stinted prayers, &c. For all this may be done, yea and they may sinne some way in doing all this, & yet they may obey Christ, in all the maine, essentiall and substantiall points, of his ministery, worship and government.
To this Maister Can thus replieth: Maister Bradshaw as one that purposeth to deceive others, concealeth that that should give speciall light to the matter; and meerely to gull his reader hides from him whatsoever should serve for his most true information about the point in dispute; affirming, that ministers may in divers and sundry particulars, disobey Christ in his ordinances of worship and government: not expressing what those diverse and sundry particulars are: that which he is perswaded he durst not doe, because they would then soone have joyned issue with him: and when he shall doe, till which time he leaveth him in the midst of his idle discourse (as he tearmeth it) he telleth him he will return him an answere.
But thus Maister Can, as elswhere, still forgetts himselfe, and what part Maister Bradshaw holdeth in this dispute with Maister Iohnson, it is an answerers part and person that he sustaineth. And it is enough, that he denyeth Maister Iohnsons proposition. Which unles it be made good; That in no particulars at all, a ministery may (not Lawfully, for that Maister Bradshaw saith not, but that it may so fall out that it so doth) disobey Christ in his own ordinance, &c. And yet continue still the ministery of Christ; Maister Iohnsons proposition falleth to the ground.
And as he forgets Maister Bradshaws part, so his own place too: he tells us, he w l an…ere, if we will tell him this and that; whereas he ought to replie, & proove that that …s denyed. But this is the manner of sory disputants, when they are at a …on plus, to give over their opposition, and bid the answerer, either tell what he meaneth, or take theire office upon him, proove that that he saith, when they cannot proove what themselves say.
For as for joyning of issue (which Maister Bradshaw forsooth had so much cause to feare) it was joyned long since, between Maister Iohnson as plaintiff & Maister Bradshaw as defendant. Maister Bradshaw as you see here denying the truth of Maister Iohnsons plea, as he hath layd it; and Maister Can his proctor refusing to make it good, and so leaving his clients cause altogether undefended, while with other idle discourse (to return him his own tearm) he trifleth out the time, and tireth his readers to no purpose.
The like answere may be returned to that which followeth; where he requireth, that in the next reply, they will shew some good reason, for that which Maister Bradshaw writes, that ministers may execute the ministery and government of other Arch-Bishops, &c. As if this were Maister Bradshaws reply, and not an answere to Maister Iohnsons arguments; which if he will make good, he must proove the thing here denyed; and not putt the other party by some proofe to make go…d his deniall.
Nor doth it thence follow, as he would have it, that all pleas against the prelacy, must needs be unjust: since that just complaint may be, both of irreptitious corruptions adhearing to a ministery, and oft injurious usurpation exercised on it, and suite made for the reformation and remoovall of either; and yet the ministery it selfe not necessarily therefore, for the essence and substance of it, denyed to be the ministery of Christ, nor obedience, by those that execute fuch a ministery, denyed unto Christ in the maine and essentiall parts of his ministery, worship and government.
For as for that he relates out of some intemperate spirites, that our booke of Common praier was taken out of the vile Masse booke, full of all blasphemys, lyes and abominations; and our government taken wholly and every part from the Pope: we are no more tyed to acknowledge what such say, then they, what Maister Smith and his followers, viz. that theire Church in regard of her Constitution is as very an Harlot, as either her Mother England, or her grandmother Rome is, out of whose loines she came: and as her constitution, so her worship, ministery & government false. In his Epistle before the Character of the Beast; that Antichrist is not utterly revealed or abolished, but in a very high degree is exalted in theire Churches; in his preface to the differences of the Churches of the Separation. And that theire Eldership is an invention of man, having an Antichristian ministery and government in it. And that therefore when the popish presbytery was supprest, and their tr formed presbytery substituted, one Antichrist was putt down and an other sett up in his place, or the beast was supprest, and his image was advanced, &c. vide p. 24.
Fr. Iohnson.
The ministery of Christian which is opposed against, and exalted above the holy things, ministery and ordinances of Christ, is the ministery of Antichrists apostaly. 1. Thes. 2.3.4. with 1. Ioh. &c.
Such is the ministery of their Church-assemblys.
Ergo, It is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy.
The Assumption is evident; 1. A man may peaceably receive or administer theire holy things in theire manner, by vertue of their Deaconry or Priesthood, received from theire Prelates.
But if any doe administer or receive the holy things of God by the offices of pastors and teachers entred into and executed according to the testament of Christ, they are reviled and persecuted.
1. Their prelacy, pr…esthood and deaconry is the very meanes of thrusting away, and keeping out of the Church, the ministery and order which Christ hath appointed, which some of themselves heretofore have acknowledged and written.
VV. Bradshaw
1. The ministery of our Church-assemblys being answerable to the Laws, is not a ministery exalted in any thing above the ministery of Christ, but the very same in nature and quality, tho' in some accidents it may differre: in which difference, if here be any sinne, it is of ignorance or infirmity in the ministers; which may in as high or a higher degree befall unto the best ministers, that ever were since the Apostles times.
2. The holy things, which they administer, are the holy things of Iesus Christ, and not of their own, and by vertue of that Priesthood and Deaconry which they have received, they may not administer any other holy things, but what Christ Iesus requireth. The other things which they administer, are judged by them which administer them, onelyonly things indifferent, and matters of order, wherein if they which use them be deceived, it is but such an error, as worthy martyrs of Iesus Christ, have been subject unto, & not sufficient to make theire ministery an Antichristian ministery.
3. The Prelates doe not persecute any true Pastors and Teachers, so much for ministering any of the holy things of Christ, as for refusing to conforme to some speciall ordinances of their own; which they doe not holde to be holy things, but matters of order, and which by reasons they have indeavoured to proove to be so? wherein the practise of Prelates is no more extreame then their own, who censure as farre as they can, in all extreamity, all them who doe not in all points conforme and agree to theire own orders, ceremonys and Church politie.
4. It can never be prooved, that the admittance of this ministery, is a hinderance of a better, but rather it is a meanes to keep out a worse, and a way in time to bring in a better, if a better be to be brought in. For by yeelding to some things that may be bettered, and is so wished and indeavoured, a doare is opened to minister many holy things, which otherwise should be shut. And if it be as Lawfull, for us to conjecture, as for him, theire generall Schisme and rent from this ministery, hath been one maine and principall meanes to uphold it as it is.
Fr. Iohnson.
The ministery which is such as in the nature and condition thereof it pertaineth not to any body or State either civill or ecclesiasticall, but onelyonly to the body or Kingdome of Antichrists Apostasy, is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
Such is the ministery of their Church-assemblys.
Ergo, It is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy.
The Assumption is cleare, in as much as their Prelacy, Priesthood and Deaconry, is such, that the civill State may be perfect without them, and the Church of Christ may be compleate without them; onelyonly the body and Kingdome of the Romish Antichrist, can not be full and furnished in all the offices thereof without them.
VV. Bradshaw
For answere to the Assumption.
1. Concerning the Prelacy (though it be not any ministery of any of our Church-assemblys, and therefore idely urged, in this & all the other arguments) this may be said.
1. That the principall, and most honourable parts thereof are onelyonly usurped by Antichrist, and doe not appertain to him, but to the jurisdiction of the supreame Magistrates and States.
2. That the State of a Christian common-wealth cannot be perfect, without some generall visitors and overseers of Churches.
3. That though a particular Church or congregation may be compleate without them, yet for the necessary union and agreement of the severall Churches in Christian Provinces and Kingdomes, it is fitt and agreeable to reason, & no ways repugnant to Gods word, that under the supreame Magistrate there should be other governers to protect and incourage those ministers and Churches which doe their duty; and to punish those which shall offend. Wherein if either through warrant of humane Laws, or some personall corruption, they shall in some things passe their bounds, they doe no more than any other officers, either civill or Ecclesiasticall, through frailty and infirmity, may doe.
4. That the Kingdome of Antichrist can not be furnished, in all the offices thereof without the autority of civill Magistrates: and therefore this seems to make as much against the calling of civill Magistrates as Bishops.
2. Concerning the ministery of our Priests and Deacons, such as it is, or by Law ought to be, in our Church-assemblys, the Church of Christ can not be compleate without it. Yea it is no Church without it. Neither can the Kingdome of Antichrist stand before it. Neither will he ever proove the contrary.
Fr. Iohnson.
The ministery which is such, as the body of Antichrist, the man of sinne can not without it be compleate in all the members and canonicall functions thereof, is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
Such is the ministery of the Church-assemblys of England.
Ergo, It is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
VV. Bradshaw
This argument is but the taile of the former; and therefore needs no further answere, it being cut off in the answere to the former, the canons pont…ficall & State of the Romish Antichrist doe manifest the contrary, which have and doe persecute with sword and fire such a ministery as is the ministery of our Church assemblys: if it be in all points, to the intent of the Law.
Fr. Iohnson.
The ministery of Deacons, Priests and Prelates, which accounts it selfe to be Christs, and yet indeed is such, as the Kings & rulers of the earth may & ought to suppresse and roote out of their Dominions, is the ministery of Antichrists apostasy.
Such is theire ministery. Ergo,
It is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
The Assumption is prooved in the former reason, and in other treatises, and by some of themselves in their suites to the Parliament: and if the Prelates, & their conforming Clergy denie it, they are by theire own Canons excommunicated ipso facto.
VV. Bradshaw
This sixt argument is borowed from the first reason, where it is brought to proove, that our ministery is not the ministery of pastors and teachers: as here it is brought againe to proove, that it is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
But how doth he proove that the King ought to suppresse this ministery? he refers us for the proofe thereof, especially to the former reason, how doth he proove it there? thus: it is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy, therefore the King ought to suppresse it. Is not this learned stuffe?
Concerning his other treatises which he so often send us unto, as if they were in every streete and marketplace of the land; we have not so much idle time to seeke after them: and we presume we shall finde no better stuffe in them, then in this.
If any among us have putt up any such suite to the Parliament, for the abolishing of our ministery in generall, let them answere for themselves. But the Prelates may well laugh at his simplicity and sillinesse of witt, that thinkes to fright them with such a buggbeare as this, in making them beleeve, that they are by theire own Canons excommunicated ipso facto; if they deny that the King may and ought to abolish our ministery.
Fr. Iohnson.
If it be such as shall be abolished by the Lord through the power and light of his gospell, then it is the ministery of Antichrists Apostasy.
The First is true. Ergo
The Latter is true allso.
VV. Brads…aw.
The same answere will serve for this argument, that was given to the former. For the Assumption is false, the light of the gospell shall more and more confirme, establish and perfect it; and remoove all the defects and blemishes in it. his proofe is as ridiculous and sophisticall, as is the former, for he prooves it by the same question, that here it is brought to proove. For so in effect proceeds his disputation.
That which shall be abolished is Antichristian.
Our ministery shall be abolished. Ergo
It is Antichristian.
But how doth he, for our learning proove, that our ministery shall be abolished? very learnedly and profoundly thus.
That which is Antichristian shall be abolished.
Our ministery is Antichristian.
Therefore. It shall be abolished.
For this is the effect of that idle discourse of 2. or 3. leaves. to wit, pag. 46. 51. tending to proove, that Antichrist & all his offices shall be abolished.
In defence of these 3. arguments Maister Can gives not a word, good or bad; but leaveth them and their Author, to shift as they may for themselves. OnelyOnly he is pleased, after his woonted manner, when he wanteth other matter, to minde his reader, how Maister Bradshaw againe rejecteth and relinquisheth the principles (as he tearms them) of some Non-conformists: As I hope Maister Can will in like manner of some Separatists, unlesse he mean to condemne his own Churches constitution, as Antichristian in a high degree.