Dialogue Between the Libertine or Rebel Anabaptist and the Christian, Dialogue 4

Dialogue Between the Libertine or Rebel Anabaptist and the Christian · Dialogue 4

The fourth Dialogue. ¶ Whether it be lawful to reſiſt y^e magiſtrate, where we do write againſt them that do rebel againſt magiſtrates & rulers.

SIMO.

Tel Ioiada, if there were a magiſtrat (as ther be to mani) which ſhuld do nothing wel, nothing ſoberly, nothing iuſtly, & according to right, which being rebellyous to god, & his lawes, ſhuld w^t infynit wrō ges, oppreſſe y^e good, & not reuenge them y^t ſuffer wrong, nor yet delyuer them frō the handes of their enemyes, were it not lawful to reſiſt him? Doth not Eſaias cal the wicked maieſtrats theues & robbers? Eſai. i. Doth not Chriſt cal them the power of darkenes? Paul doth reuile Ananias to his face. Actes. xxiii. calling hym a whited or painted wall.

IO.

To an vngodly & wicked magiſtrate, his faultes & wicked dedes are to be ſhewed, y^t he may turne from them, to a better life, and that ought to be done now in time, now out of time. The fact of Paul hath ſome occaſyon. Be thou lyke to Paul, and then imitate and folow Paules dede.

SIMO.

What auaileth if the wicked dedes of magiſtrates and prynces be rebuked, ſythe that they be wicked ſtil, and amand not? It were farre better that they ſhould be roted out of the earth, euen as Iehu, and other did.

IO.

Why, and wherfore doſt thou ſay ſo my Symon? How farre haſt thou ouer ſhoot thy ſelf? do not ye Catabaptiſtes dateſt and abhorre warrely tumultes? But I ſe what it would be, if al thinges ſhould happen and chaunce too you,All y^e doyngs of y^e Anabaptiſts do breath and ſauour tumult & confuſion of all thynges. accordyng to your owne deſires, I feare me, leſt all your doings do breathe and ſauour tumulte and confuſyon of all thynges, Not ſo, my Simon. Paul ſaith i. Cor. vii. chapter. Let eueryevery man abyde in that vocation that he is called in. Arte thou called, being a ſeruaunt? Care thou not therfore, but alſo, if y^u canſte be made free, vſe rather the ſame.

SIM.

Thou doſt heare then, that he doth preferre fredom and libertie, to ſeruitude & bondage and warneth that (if it may be done) we do ſeke it.

IO.

I heare that fredom and libertie is to be wiſſhed for, and alſo (yf it may be done conueniently) to be embraced, but I do not heare,Liberti ought not to be ſought by ſedition and bloud ſheding If all thinges were done, as we would, eueryevery houre tumultes ſhoulde ryſe. y^t it oughte to be deſired & ſought, by ſeditions, by tumultes, by euyl waies, by violence, bloude, & warres. Nor y^e apoſtles did euer vſe ſuch meanes, for to be made free, or to get thē ſelues to libertie, therefore we muſte abſtayne alſo from them. If al things were done by our councell, eueryevery houre tumultes and ſeditions, ſhould be ſtyrred vp againſt the magiſtrate, for euerye man (as ſoone as any thing ſhould not come too paſſe, according to his luſte, & inordynate deſire) ſhuld begin an vprore & tumulte, & wold ſay: The magiſtrate is vngodly, he hath handled me agenſt al right & equity Shoulde not thus y^e chriſtyan name be a cloke of tumults, inordinate affections,The Libertins go about to make the Chrſtian name, a cloke of tumultes & confuſion. & of al confuſion?

SI.

Truly thys thynge muſt be tried & proued by hands, and by ſtrength, for wordes do not auaile wyth thoſe tirauntes. By and by, as ſoone as anye manne doth rebuke their tirannye, and wycked factes,O brayneles Anabaptiſte they waxe hote and angrye, they threaten, they take, they caſte intoo pryſon, they ſpoyle menne of their goodes, they baniſhe, they kyll and murther thē y^t are godly. This waie neyther godlynes, nor iuſtice, nor good men are ſene to. Therfore this ſore ſickenes & diſeaſe of y^e cōmon weale, can not be holpen, but by tumult & the ſwerd, y^t the vngodly may be vtterly deſtroyed, & roted out of y^e earth.

IO.

That thing which to men ſemeth impoſſible, before god is poſſible. Therfore, this high & waighty vnſines, & matter, ought to be committed to god, w^t moſt erneſt & burning praiers, for he ſaith:God dothe neuer forſake hys electe. Put or remyt y^e vēgaunce to me & I wil reueng or require. It is moſt ſure y^t god doth neuer forſake, his electe, and y^t he doth neuer deny hys helpe vntounto them that with a ſincere heart, and trew faith do call vponupon him.To them that are godly, all thyngs y^e god doth, ſeme well done. Luk. xviii.

SIM.

But he doth helpe manye to late.

IOI.

To them y^t are godly in dede, nothinge doth ſeme to ſoone, nothinge to late, that the lorde god doth worke. They do receyue with a thankful heart, what ſo euer their merciful father doth geue, whether it be weale or woo, they knowe that they are alwaies in the handes of their moſt boū teous father from the whiche, nothynge can take them awaie. They do commyt them ſelues altogether, to this moſt mercifull father, yelding them ſelues whollye to his will. For, they do remember y^e ſaying of Peter, which ſaith. The lord knoweth how to deliuer y^e godly from temptation, & how to kepe the vnrighteous to be puniſhed in the day of iudgement.Marke theſe goldē ſayings and prynte them in thy mynd, who ſouer thou be, y^e art opreſſed and ſo committing thy ſelf holly into the mercy of thyne heauē ly father, beware of deuylyſhe tumult & inſurrection Alſo that ſaying of Dauid ſtycked in theyr mindes: I neuer ſawe the righteous forſakē. Finally y^t golden ſentence of Paul is neuer from their memory: God ſuffereth not vsus to be tempted aboue y^t we be able, to beare, & maketh a ioyful & proſperous ende wyth the temptation. Wyth out doubt god doth alwaies deliuer hys trew ſeruauntes, for eyther he doth illuminate and lighten the heartes of the tyraunts & princes, that they ſhall fauoure his electe, as he dyd to Pharao, towarde Ioſeph, too Cirus, toward y^e Iewes, to Xerxes, toward Eſeras, to Artaxerxes, towarde Rehemiah, to Ahaſuerus, toward Mardorche, to Nabugodonozer, toward Daniel, that y^e faithful and godly might hauehave ſome reſpit. Or yf he be determined to vtterly deſtroye the tyrantes and vngodly rulers, he begynneth that matter with ſo great, and ſo notable ſignes and tokens, that no man canne doubt of the good wyll of God, and alſoo he doth alwayes atcheue and fynyſh the thynge y^t he hath begon, wyth a proſperous ende Now yf any man doth go about any delyueraunce,Note thys dreadful example of Iſmael, whyche killing Godoly as, y^e Babylonians depute, dyd bring y^e remenaunt of the Iſraelites to vtter confuſyon. All ye y^t are oppreſſed let neuer thys goodly hyſtory be from your hert, and then I truſte that ye ſhall neuer hauehave mynd to inſurrection & tumult, but rather to call erneſtley vpō god for delyuerance. wythoute, or agaynſte thys order, as thoughe he had begonne or enterpryſed that thyng, by the wyll and cō maundemente of God, he ſhall auayl no more then Iſmael dyd agaynſt the Babiloniens, in kyllyng Godolias .iiii. of y^e Kynges .xxv. chapter. and Hieremye .xl. chapter. But go to, we wyl bryng furth out of the armorye and ſtorehouſe of the ſcryptures, weyghtye exaumples, where by it ſhall be made manyfeſte and plaine bothe by what meanes, god delyuereth hys electe, and alſoo howe vnfortunatelye and vnluckelye, they dyd ſpede, whiche dyd go aboute to delyuer theym ſelues by boldenes ond tumulte agaynſte the wyll of God. The people of Iſrael dydde ſerue in Egipte, certayne hundred yeares, beynge oppreſſed wyth ſundrye and dyuers labours, and greuouſlye afflycted, beſydes that, they were compelled too ſe howe theyr chyldren and infantes, as ſoone as they were borne, were drowned in the ryuer of Nilus. By and by, as ſoone as they beganne too call to the Lorde wyth a trewe heart, they were hearde of the Lorde. For he dydde ſende Moiſes, whyche ſhoulde be a captayne and a delyuerer of the people. He dydde carye theym drye ſhoed thoroughe the redde Sea, and dydde drowne Pharao, wyth all hys hoſte and armye, in the botome of the deepe. Exodus the fourtene Chapter. Saule, kynge of the Iſraelites, dyd kyll and murther the Prophetes of God, and perſecuted the innocente and ryghtuouſe Dauid.Oh moſt godly Dauid, y^t we might hauehave grace in our troubles and affections and when we are moſt oppreſſed, to enſue & folowe thy ſteppes, god graunte, we maye. Dauid dothe notte reuenge hym ſelfe, nor put hym from hys kyngdome, but rather he flyeth him ſelfe, and when he had fallen twyſe intoo hys handes, he ſpare hym, and dyd ſuffer hym too goo awaye vnhurte, or wythoute harme, ſayinge: The Lorde be mercyfull vntoo mee, that I doo not that thynge too my Lorde, the anoynted of the Lord, that I ſhould lay mine hand vponupon him, for he is the anointed of y^e lord The Lorde lyueth, that excepte, the lorde doth ſmyte hym, or hys daye become that he dye, or he, goyng downe too battayle, do peryſſhe, the lorde be mercyfull vntounto me, y^t I do not lay mine hand vponupon y^e anointed of y^e lord .i. of the kings xxiiij. At an other tyme, when Abiſai did ſaye. The lord hath ſhutte vp to day thine enemy into thine hands, now therfore wil I thruſt him thorow w^t a ſpear to y^e ground once, & it ſhall be no nede of the ſeconde time. Dauid ſayde vntounto Abiſai: Doo not ſley him. For who ſhal lay his hands vp on y^e anointed of the lord, & ſhall be vngiltie? .i. of the kinges .xxvi. cha. Theſe wordes, my Simon, being wel weighed and pondered, do teach vsus, y^t we muſt not folow y^e blynd affection of our fleſſhe. For when the time was come y^t the lorde had appointed, not Dauid, but y^e lord him ſelf did take Saul away frō the world, w^t the ſwerd y^t he him ſelf had ſent, & dyd ſet vp Dauid in y^e roial & kingly ſeat. The chyldren of Iſrael, hauehave bene many times afflicted vnderunder tirants & vngodly kynges, as we hauehave in the hiſtory of y^e iudges, no man did go about of his own head, or of his owne induſtry, to deliuer them. But y^e lord him ſelf did deliuer them by Gedeon, Samſon, Iephte, & other like, whō he him ſelfe had choſen to ſuche buſineſſes. Who doth by ſedition & tumult, inuade or come vponupon the vngodly king Achab. when he doth ſet vp ydols, & commaundeth y^t innocent & good man, Naboth, to be ſtoned to death, keping neither ryght nor equitie, ſlaying the prophetes, perſecuting Helias (tyl y^t the lord doth ſtyrre vp Eliſeus, which at y^e commaundement of god doth anoint Iehu king, y^t he ſhuld take vengeaunce for y^e lord, of the vngodly .iiii. of the kinges .ix.x. So Io…ada did vntounto Athalia, ſo the king of the Aſſirians did to Manaſſes. How long time did y^e Emperours of Rome, ſhede the chriſtian bloud, yet notw^tſtandyng no man goeth about to better it by tumult, til Conſtantinus Magnus did come. I could reherſe vntounto the Thraſibulus, a tirant of y^e Athenienſes, & William Tell, & Stouffaker, tirants of the Heluetians, but we wyll be content w^t the examples of the ſcripture.

SI.

Shalt it then be alwaies lawful to tirants to be vngodly, & that w^tout puniſhment? which of the words of Paul. Ro. xiii. Do take a cloke, a buckeler & ſhielde of their own malice, vnderunder y^e which they fraude & deceiue, they ſteale, they robbe, they ſlaye, they murther, & confounde all things, they eueryevery foote ſlea y^e poor commons to the very bones, w^t new exactyons, taxes, & ſubſidies, being in the mean ſeaſon, giuen to riot, and outragyous exceſſe, to drunkennes, to vnlawful gaining to whordome, and moſt vniuſte warres, and therwith committing moſte deteſtable dedes, and wycked factes agaynſte god, and the common weale. But I wil ſhewe to the out of Hieremy .xv. chap, y^t the people is puniſſhed of god, becauſe y^t they thus ſuffer tyrauntes and vngodly prynces, to kyll and flea, without any puniſhment. For after the .iiij. plagues y^t he doth rehearſe there, he addeth by and by y^e cauſe, ſaying: And I wil deliuer thē vp into the fury of al y^e kingdō of the earthe y^t is to ſay: I wil ſtyrre vp againſte them the fury & rage of al the kingdoms of the earth, for Manaſſes ſake, y^e ſonne of Ezechias, the kyng of Iuda, for all the wyckednes y^t he hath done at Ieruſalem. Se in the .vii. of the kynges .xxi. chapt, what wyckednes he did commit, if the Iewes had not ſuffered their kynge, thus w^tout puniſhment, to be ſo wycked, they ſhuld not hauehave bene ſo greuouſlye plagued of god. It behoueth to pull oute the offending eie, & to caſt it away, likewiſe of the hand and of the fote,

IOI.

Here be .ij. queſtions. The firſte is: whether the tyraunte muſt be remoued from his roume or not? The ſeconde: howe, and by whō Therfore I do not deny, but that a wycked magyſtrate, muſt be put downe, but not the ſame way that thou wylte. Noo man ought to kyll hym, nor to ſtyrre vp warre and ſedition againſt him, we muſt go to worke, an other maner of way, the matter muſte be attempted and aſſayed by lawful meanes, for god hath called vsus in peace .i. Corinthians the ſeuenth chap the tyraunt muſt be taken away (that do I not denye) for Samuel dothe depoſe Saule from hys offyce, and doth anoynt Dauid, kynge ouer the people of Iſrael. Ioiada putteth furthe Athalia from the ruledome and maketh Ioas a kynge. If then a kynge be made by the common aſſente of all the people, and begynneth too be wycked, let hym agayne be put downe wyth common aſſente of the people, excepte they wyll all be punyſſhed wyth hym. And yf he be choſen by y^e cō ſent & election of fewe princes, let y^e people ſignifie & ſhew unto them, y^e wycked and vngodly lyfe of thys kinge, & that it ought to be borne or ſuffered no longer, let them be cōmaunded, that hauehave choſen him, to put him doune agayn. Now here ſhall be all the labour,What the tyraunt wyll do to them, that dare ſpeake againſt his wicked tirannye. for againſt them y^e do thys thyng, the tyraunt ſhall exercyſe all kynde of crudelytye, handlyng them accordynge to hys inordynate luſte, and whome it ſhall pleaſe hym, he wyll ſleye and murther. But it is a gloryous thing to dye for ryghtuouſnes, and the truth of God. And better it is too be ſlayne, for the defence of iuſtyce and ryghtuouſnes then aſſentyng vntounto vnryghtuouſnes,It is far better to be put to death for defence of righteouſnes, then afterwardes to be kylled, wyth the vngodly and wycked. What we owe to do yf he be come to y^e kyngdome by y^e ſwerde, or by enherytaunce. or dyſſembling, to be afterwardes kylled to the vngodly and wicked. They that can not awaye wyth thys thynge, let theym ſuffer and beare a vycyous and proude tirannie, and wyth hym, let theym loke too receyue an extreame punyſſhemente Yet notwythſtandyng, the hande of the lorde is ſtretched furthe, and threateneth a plague. Finally, yf he hath inuaded or come into the kyngdome, by anye other chaunce, as by ſtrengthe, or by enherytaunce, we muſte beare hym, till the lord vouchſafe to delyuer the oppreſſed, leſte any commotyon and tumulte be ſtyrred vp by vsus, for the kingdom of god is rightuouſnes, peace, and gladnes in the holy ghoſt. Romay .xiiii. There be then many waies, wherby tiraunts may be taken away and put downe, but we do wante a feruent ſtudy of rightuouſnes, and of the truth, we do wante the feare of god, and deuiliſh wickednes reigneth eueri where For it could not be poſſible that a tirant durſt do ſo muche, except there were mo wycked, by whom he ſhould mainteyne and vphold his tyrannye. But fyrſt and formeſt, the prophetes, that is to ſay, the miniſters of gods word, muſt be bold to rebuke the ſynnes and wycked factes of Prynces & rulers:Which is the moſt commodious way, to ouercome tyrauntes. none other way more commodious to ouercome tirauntes can be, then if the preachers of the truthe, do once determyne too dye, they muſte put their bodies & lyues to ieopardy. Yf Nero, Dominitanus, Maximianus, wyth other, could not by murtheringe and ſheding of bloud, roote out and vtterly deſtroye the doctrine of Chriſt, muche leſſe ſhall theſe braynleſſe and madde princes (yf we do ſtand vp boldly) oppreſſe y^e goſpel and the truth.This is not ſpoken in derogation of anye godlye prince, … Therfore this is y^e firſt and chiefeſt way, that y^e ouerſeers be not blynde, that the dogges be not dombe, y^t they put them ſelues a wall betwixte the ſynnes of the people, and god, that they amend vp the broken hedge. The ſecond that we do always,The lawfull wayes and meanes to get our ſelues out of myſerable oppreſſyon. and without ceaſſing praye vntounto god, whych in his wrath and indignation, maketh the hypocrytes too reigne, for our ſinnes. Finally, and laſt of all, that we thyrſt for ryghteouſnes, that we amend our liues, and chaunge our cō dytyons. For yf we be godly, and righteous, it is impoſſible, that a tyraunte do reigne longe.

SIM.

All Iſrael, after y^e death of Salomon, did ſwarue awaye, & forſake Roboam, becauſe he oppreſſed them to muche, & that of their own head iii. of the kynges, and .xiii. chapter.

IOI.

Why, doeſt thou not reade, that, whiche foloweth:Why Goboam dyd not graunt y^e petityon of y^e people, wherfore he was vtterly forſaken of ten trybes. And the kinge did not graunt the people their petytyon, becauſe y^t god hath forſaken hym, y^t he might, or ſhould perfourme hys word, that he had ſpoken in the handes of Achias the Silonite, to Hieroboam, the ſonne of Nabate. Thou canſt not proue by this, that it is lawfull for any man to make inſurrection of hys own head, agaynſt tyrants, or euil rulers

SIM.

I feare, leaſt thys doctrine wyll make men ſluggiſh, negligent, & daſtards that if at any time, the lorde doth ſende a deliuerer, they wyl be in doubt, of the wil of the lord.

IOI.

Care for other thyngs when y^e lord doth begin and go about ſo hygh things, he calleth not ſluggyſhe daſtards, and negligent perſons:Whē god wil put doune tyrauntes, he doth alwayes ſtyrre vp men meete for the purpoſe. he geueth wiſdom, confidence & boldnes, he giueth luſtynes of courage, and ſtrength, & bringeth all thinges to the appoynted ende. Which thing we may ſe in Moiſes, Gedeon, and other. The godly man, doth directe al thynges to peace, vnitie, and concord. Again, he knoweth that the people is puniſhed, if prynces do rule & gouerne wickedly.The ſolicitud and care of a godly man. Theſe things do make a godly and faithful man, heauy, & ful of thought and kyndell him with a certain ſtudye of godlynes, theſe thinges do make him to beware, and circumſpect, not temerouſe raſh, and ouer bold, theſe thinges do conſtraine him to pray earneſtly to god, and to thinke both day and nighte, vponupon the amendement and redreſſe of thoſe things that are done and cōmitted againſt god. Then god doth open the waies, wherby the deſyres of the godly may be fulfilled nor doth forſake thē, that put their truſte and confidence in hym, nor yet dothe repulſe or put them backe, that cry and cal vponupon him.

SIM.

When the tyraunt ſeeth, that he maye do al thinges, without puniſhment, he eueryevery day waxeth worſe, and more hygh minded.

IOI.

What ſo euer he ſeeth, let hym be ſure, that an vtter deſtruction doth hang ouer him,Who ſoeuer doth miſuſe the longe ſuffraunce of god, ſhall not eſcape puniſhment. if he wyl continue ſ…yl in his wickednes. For no mā did euer eſcape w^tout puniſhment that dyd miſuſe y^e long ſuffraunce of god

SI.

Why doo ye then eueryevery where depredicate and ſay, that they are like vntounto Iudas the Gaulonite, and not chriſtians that wil not obey the magiſtrates and rulers?No godly man doth reſiſte the magiſtrate.

IOI.

Becauſe that no godly man doth reſiſt the magiſtrate. For ſith y^t the apoſtles do warne & byd vsus to obey heathenyſh magyſtrates, who doth not ſe, y^t it is an vnfittely thyng for a chriſtian, to ſhew him ſelfe diſobedient to a chriſtyan magiſtrate?

SIM.

That were wel ſayd yf we had a chriſtyan Magiſtrate.Who is to be called a Chriſtyan magyſtrate.

IOI

I do cal him a chriſtian magiſtrate, whiche is baptyzed in Chriſte Ieſus, which beleueth in Chriſt, doth confeſſe him, and heareth hys goſpell, which he dothe alſo ſuffer to be preached emong his ſubiects nor doth perſecute it, withſtandynge (as muche as in him lyeth) wickedneſſe and iniquitie, or vnryghteouſnes and punyſſhing the euil doers, that do offend openly, which doth bend al his care and ſtudy to this, that y^e glory of god may increaſe, may be promoted and ſet forth, that men maye lyue godly, honeſtly, and quyetly in the common weale. And (thankes be giuen to god) we do not want ſuch now a daies, emong the magiſtrates and high powers, which thynge, no man can perſwade to you.The Lybertines & Anabaptyſtes, do thynke no man to be a Chriſtyan, except he receyueth theyr doctryne and be baptized agayne. For ye thinke no man to be a chriſtyan, excepte he doth cleaue too you, and receyue youre doctryne, and at length be baptized again by you, though all theſe things be altogether repugnant to chriſtyan ſtatutes, and publyke lawes No tongue can expreſſe how bytter and venymouſe, or poyſoned railyngs, ye do here vomite and ſpue out againſt the magiſtrate.

SI.

Theſe thynges neuer pleaſed me.

IOI.

But yet they are done of them. They do pycke and gather certain bytter and greuous ſayinges oute of the pſalmes and prophetes, which afterwardes being learned without boke, they do vomite againſte the magyſtrates. Theſe thinges do pleaſe to ſtubburne & diſobedient perſons,The ſcripture doth call the iudges and magyſtrates gods, becauſe that they be here in the roume & ſtede of god, who ſoeuer then doth ryſe or rayle agaynſt them, God ſhall punyſhe him extremly where as gods word doth forbyd vsus to raile againſt the gods (for y^e holy ſcripture doth ſo cal the magiſtrats and iudges) Peter doth liuely ſet theym furth, vnderunder the name of falſe prophetes, in his latter epiſtle, and .iii. chap. O Citizins (ſay they) the magiſtrate is no chryſtian, but yet be obedient vntounto him. And thei their own ſelues wil not be obedient vntounto him, in the leſte thing of the world. What ſhould I ſay? They go aboute to aboliſh and put downe all magiſtrates & high powers, that ſo they may do, what ſoeuer they liſt. Paul ſaith: If thou wilt not feare the hygh power, do that which is iuſte, but they do fear the hygh power (for they go about to abolyſh and put it downe) ergo, they wyll do that which is euyll. They are then the felowes of Iudas, the Gaulonite, and of Siba, the ſon of Bocheri, whych both for their hygh treaſon, were worthely put to death. Of Iudas the Galonit, ſe Ieſephus, in the xviii. boke of antiquityes, and firſt chap. Actes .v. chapter. He dyd ſtyrre ſedition emonge the people, which he ſeducynge with hope of liberty, did periſh at length wyth many. Of Siba thou ſhalt read, in the ſeconde of kynges, and .xx. Chapter. Suche ſedytyous perſonnes, are in the ſcriptures, called the chyldren of Belial. Therfore, my Symon, if thou wylt folow my councel, thou ſhalt leaue this falſe opinion, and afterwardes ſtycke to the truth, and be obedient to the Magiſtrates, and rulers.

SIM.

Thou haſt well ſatiſfyed my mynd, therfore I wyll folowe thy councell.

FINIS.

Imprynted the third daye of Aprill.

Anno. Do. 1551.

¶ At Worceter in y^e hygh ſtrete, by Ihon Ofwen.

¶ They be alſo to ſell at Shreweſbury.

☞ Cum priuilegio ad imprimendum ſolum.

End of the text · Henrich Bullinger, Dialogue Between the Libertine or Rebel Anabaptist and the Christian (1551)