Dialogue Between the Libertine or Rebel Anabaptist and the Christian, Dialogue 3
¶ The third Dialogue. That we are bound to obey the Magiſtrate.
SIMON.
THoſe thyngs that thou haſt brought oute of Paule, doo pleaſe me very wel, but I do not ſe, that we are bound to obey thys Magiſtrate.
IOI
What is this? Doſte thou thinke that we are not bounde to obey ye power which is of god?
SIM.
I would not be greatly againſt it, if al power wer of god if they did al rule wel, if they dyd defend right & equitie. What if this power doth fighte againſt god, doth breake & violate lawes and ſtatutes, doth oppreſſe ye poor wylt thou ſay yt it is of god? or doſt thou thinke that we are bound to obey it? As farre as I can iudge, a tyrannical power is not of God, yea, rather it is no power ergo, we oughte not to obey it.The tiranous poweris geuē of god, as a rod to punyſh and try the people.
IOIADA.
A tyrannouſe power is alſo of god, gyuen of god, as a rodde wherewith the people is bothe tryed and punyſſhed.
Whych thyng is made moſt playne and manyfeſt in Pharao, in Saule, and Balthaſar. Paule alſo doth ſaye, that all power is of God.
SIMON.
Paule ſpeaketh of that power, which is benefycyall to the good, and punyſſheth the wycked But contrarye to that, a tyraunte dothe wronge to them that are good and vertuous, he oppreſſeth them, and dothe enhaunce and ſet vp the wycked. Sith then that ſuche power is not beneficyall to ye good,God doth ordeine ye which ſemeth euyll to vsus, for the good of the electes. but rather do them wronge, howe can it be of god?
IO.
That thing whych ſemeth euyl vntounto vsus, god doth ordeyn it to the good of his elect. Did not ye croſſe & death of ſo many martyrs, which were ſlaine and put to death by tyrauntes and cruel perſecutours, ſerue to the glorye of god, and to the increaſe of their own felycitie and beatitude?That officers and rulers do ſometymes waxe tyrants it cometh eyther of the vyces of them yt are in offyce or els, of the Ire & wrath of God. God vſeth Nabugodonoſor as a rodde, wherwith he punyſſheth his people. Beſides yt, if any chaunges and alterations do happen, ſo that he which was a good magyſtrate, a godlye ruler & officer, is cleane chaunged, & doth become moſt wicked, ye procedeth not of ye nature of the magiſtrate, or office, but it commeth of the vices of moſt peruerſe & wicked men, yt are in office, & execute the office of a magiſtrate, yea, many and ſundry times it commeth of ye plain yre and wrath of god. Are not many times yt water & ayre, yea, ye meat it ſelfe peſtiferous which notwtſtanding by them ſelues, are moſt wholſom. But ſo god doth puniſh our ſinnes. Vnderſtand ye ſame of ye tirannous magiſtrates.
SI.
What if he commaundeth that, whyche is vniuſte and vnryghtfull? Shall I obey?
What yf the tyraunt be both vnryghteous and vngodly, ſhall I obey neuertheles? No. For thou haſt ſayd before, that no man can better execute the office of a magiſtrate, then a chriſtian. Again, Paul doth with a certaine ſtomacke, ſpeake againſt them that ſuffered them ſelues to be iudged vnderunder vnryghtuous iudges. Finally, the apoſtles them ſelues, wold not obey the commaundementes of the vngodlye magiſtrates, ſaying: It behoueth rather to obey god, then men.
IO.
I hauehave made a compariſon betwixte the godly magiſtrate, and the vngodly, whē I ſaid theſe wordes: No man can better nor more godly execute ye office of a magiſtrate, then a godly man,Thoughe the vngodlye magiſtrate is not to be comparid wt the godlye, yet notwtſtandynge in externe & outward thyngs hee is not to be diſobeyed. and yet in the meane ſeaſon, I did not ſay, that an vngodly and tirannous magyſtrate, is not a magiſtrate. I did preferre the rule that the chriſtian doth beare, before the rule yt the vngodly doth beare, & yet notwythſtanding, I did not condempne the laſte although it were no power, or rule, or as though we were not bounde to obey it. The commō weales neuer floriſſhed better, then when godly men did Raygne. That we may ſe in Ezechias, & other holy Kinges. Wherunto ſame Paul had alſo a reſpecte when he did bid ye Corinthians to choſe & make iudges of ye ſaints, yt is to ſay, of ye faithfull. The apoſtles dyd wel, yt in certain things they did not obey ye vngodly edictes & cōmaundements of ye ſenate. When yu doſt then aſke and demaund a queſtiō, touchyng obedience, I do aunſwere after thys maner: When yu ſaieſt theſe wordes:Too obey an vngodly magiſtrate, & to obey vngodlye lawes & ſtatutes, is not all one. Shall I obey an vngodly magiſtrate? Shal I obey vngodly lawes, ſtatutes and commaundementes? Thou doſt not aſke all one thynge. Thy queſtion & demaund is not al one. For to the firſt queſtion, I do anſwere yt we are bound to obey, to ye ſecond again I ſay, yt we ought not to obey. The magiſtrate bereth no rule ouer ye ſoules, but ouer ye bodies & outward ſubſtance, & whatſoeuer doth perteyn to ye outward conuerſation of mē. Now if he cōmaundeth any thing againſt god, againſt conſcyence & health of ye ſoule, we ought rather to obey god, then ye vngodly cōmaundementes of the tirant. Now hath place yt the apoſtes do ſay: It behoueth rather to obey god, thē men. But if he cōmaundeth only yt, whiche perteineth to outward thinges, or to thy body, which thing, cā,We owgh obedience to a tyrant, and again, we owe no obedience, that is to ſaie, in outwarde thynges we owe to obey, but in matter of conſcience yf he commaundeth any thynge agaynſte god we are not bound to obey Why the magiſtrate doth medle in matters of relygyon. What profyt doth come of the ſtatutes and ordynaū ces of godly magiſtrates. or may be perfourmed & done by the, wtout the loſſe of ye truth & righteouſnes, wtout paril of ſaluation (though it ſemeth neuer ſo hurtful to thy body and ſubſtaunce, though it ſemeth neuer ſo vncomely for ye) thou arte bound to obey. Therfore we owe obedyence to the tirant, & againe, we owe hym not obedience.
SI.
Now an other queſtion doth riſe, Yf ye publike magiſtrate beareth no rule ouer ye ſoule, why doth then ye magiſtrat now a daies, vſurpe ſo much power, in matters of faith?
IO.
He doth yt, not as a magiſtrate only, but as a chriſtian magiſtrate, nor he doth it, wtout cō maundement & example. In Deutero. ye kyng is commaunded to hauehave ye boke of ye law by him, & to read it diligētly which boke alſo is delyuered to Ioſue by Moſes. Let vsus loke vponupon ye example of Ioſaphat, I…ada, Ioſias, Ezechias, Nabugodonozer & Darius in Daniel.
SI.
HaueHave they any power ouer the ſoule & ſpirit of man, or can they print faith by their ſtatutes & cōmaundements, in the heartes of men?
IO
No forſothe: But their ſtatutes & ordinaunces do profit in this thing yt the vngodly do leſſe harme, do commit leſſe offence, leſſe ydolatry & blaſphemy being fraied, cohibited & brideled by ſuch godly edictes & proclamatyons. Els the weake, by ſuch licencious doings of ye vngodly, eyther are letted to come to Chriſt or elles too take occaſyon, too ſwerne a waie from Chriſt, & his worde. Therfore ye adminiſtratiō, which is done by ye laws of ye Magiſtrats, doth bring this to paſſe yt there is leſſe euil & harme emong mortall men, that men do lyue godly, honeſtly, & quietly, and although, ye vngodly do hide their vngodlynes, malice and wickednes within in their heartes, yet not wt ſtanding they dare not ſuffer it to breake forth, to trouble diſquiet, & offend them, yt will liue godly. God onelyonly doth loke in ye hearte, & iudgeth it. Wherefore I thinke this propoſition, to be ſufficiently proued yt we are bound to obey the Magiſtrate For, if ye magiſtrate be a chriſtiā, ſo much more ought we to obey hym. Againe, yf he be an heathen and vngodly, ye art alſo bound to obey him though he dothe oppreſſe the, in thy body and ſubſtaunce ſo yt he doth not call ye frō god & the truth But let vsus make it ſtronger wt the ſcripturs, In ye .xx. of Luk, Chriſt cōmaundeth to giuegive to Ceſar, ye whych belongeth too Ceſar, & to god,What by Ceſar we owe to vnderſtand in the ſcriptures that which belongeth to god. By Ceſar he vnderſtandeth generally al ye maieſtrats of ye world, to whō our bodies & goodes are ſubiects .i. of ye kynges, viii. Our mynd doth only belong to god, & therfore touchyng it, we are more bound to obey god, then man. Peter teacheth vsus after this maner: Be ye ſubiect to al humain ordynaunce for ye lord ſake, whether it be to a king, as to ye moſt excellent, or to his deputes, which are ſence of him, to ye puniſhment of the euil doers, & to the praiſe of them yt do wel, for ſo is ye wil of god, yt by wel doing, ye ſtop ye mouthes of ignorant perſons. &c.
SI.
Ye hauehave alwaies taught out of Eſaias, & wordes of Chriſt, yt god is worſhipped in vain, by ye precepts & cōmaundements of men, & now ye affirme ye plain contrary oute of Peter, yt is to ſay, yt we are bound to obei al humain ordinaunces.Ther be two kyndes of humain traditions.
IO.
Humayne traditions or conſtitutions, are taken .ii. waies. Some are ſet furth too this ende, that they ſhuld be a worſhipping of god which men do preſcribe vntoo other, as neceſſarye to ſaluation, whych yf a man ſhoulde omytte and neglecte, he ſhoulde greuouſly ſinne & offend: again, if he kepeth them, they thinke them ſelues, & alſo make other too beleue, yt he deſerueth much of god. With theſe preceptes & cō maundements, which are mere inuentyous of men, god is worſhipped in vayn. There are again certain conſtitutions of magiſtrats, touching heritaūces, proprieties, ſelling and bying, letting furth touching publike contractes & ſuche lyke, of yt which things, princes & magiſtrats do make lawes & conſtitutyons, for a peace & cōmon quietnes & tranquilitie. Al men generally are bound to obey al ſuche cō ſtitutions & lawes. And of ſuche Peter doth ſpeake, as it appereth manifeſtly by his words. Beſides yt, Peter writeth not to the heathē, but to the chriſtians, which were diſperſed here & there .i. Pet. ii. cha To Titus .iii. chap. it is writen after this maner. Warne thē (ſayth ſaint Paule) yt they be ſubiect to Princes & poteſtates, ye they be obedient too magiſtrates & rulers, yt they be ready to al good works, & that they ſpeake euyl of no man. To the Roma. xiii. he ſayth. EueryEvery ſoule (yt is to ſay, all men & women) be ſubiects to the higher powers, for ther is no power but of god: & al the powers yt are, be ordened of god. Therfore, whoſoeuer doth reſyſt ye power, doth reſiſt the ordinaūce of god But they yt reſiſt, ſhal receiue to them ſelues dampnation.