Dialogue Between the Libertine or Rebel Anabaptist and the Christian, Dialogue 2

Dialogue Between the Libertine or Rebel Anabaptist and the Christian · Dialogue 2

¶ The ſecond Dialogue ¶ That the office of a magyſtrate, is not onelyonly profytable, but alſo moſt neceſſary to a chriſtyan cō mon weale.

SIMON.

BVt what doſt thou ſay to this y^t Chriſt anſwereth to Pilate: My kyngdome is not of thys world? Sith then that chriſtyans are named after Chriſt, ſurely (for ſoo it ſemeth to me) they ought to hauehave nothing to do with ſuche a kingdom, nor I thinke it to be neceſſary to the chyldren of god. For he y^t is a true chriſtian, doth wronge and violence to no man, he doth not contend he doth not ſtriue, he hurteth no man, he ſmiteth no body, but liueth accordyng to the commaundemente of god. Math. v. chap.

IOI.

Chriſte was accuſed of high treaſon, agaynſte the imperiall Maieſty, wherby the Iues thought ſoone to hauehave condempned him. For they ſayd, he maketh him ſelfe kynge of the Iewes Our lorde woulde be ſemed (as he oughte by ryght) to be ſo farre from the affectation and coueting of any earthly kingdome, that it ſhuld be agaynſt all reaſon, to ſuſpect any ſuche thing of him. Therfore he did anſwere: My kingdom is not of this world, els I ſhould hauehave ſeruauntes and miniſters, which wolde endeuoure them ſelues, to defend me. So that Chriſt byd both confeſſe that he was king of heauē and alſo did ſignifie vntounto Pilate, that he had no cauſe to be afraid of the kingdom that he did miniſter vntounto, as thoughe he ſhould go about to chalenge it vntounto him whereof the Iues did accuſe hym before Pilate.The kingdom of Chriſte is not of thys world, but in ſpirit & truthe As though he ſhould ſay, I am a king, yet notwithſtanding, my kingdom is not of this world, but in ſpirit & truthe

SI.

This is my meaning. Then y^e kingedom of Chriſte, is not of thys world, y^t is to ſay, it doth not conſiſt in outward dominion & power, wherby it foloweth y^t it is deſtituted or ſpoiled of glory, pomp, riches, & outward puiſſaunce and myghte Wherfore we ought to be here y^e outcaſt of y^e worlde, we ſhal at length reygne w^t Chriſt in y^e regeneration.

IO.

I do ſaye nothing againſt y^e, but that y^u doſt gather therby, y^e chriſtians hauehave no nede of a magiſtrate, y^t I do deny. The reaſon, why? Becauſe that Chriſte ſpeaketh ſo of hys kingdom, that in y^e mean ſeaſon,Chriſt doth ſo ſpeake of hys kingdom, y^t in y^e mean ſeaſō, he dothe not take awaye y^e politike magiſtrate. he doth not condempne nor take away the magiſtrate. Beſides that, the chriſtians are not bare ſpirites, but they dwel yet in y^e fleſh which they do cary about. As touchyng the ſpirit, by the whych man is renued & made a chriſtian, he hath no nede of a magiſtrate. For the inwarde manne can be preſerued with no outward things. But as touching the fleſh, whiche he beareth about, & his outward conuerſation, man hath as muche nede of a Magiſtrate, as of meat, and other outward things. For it is a lyke reaſon to ſay:The Magyſtrate is as neceſſary to chriſtians in this worlde, as meat & drinke The kingdome of the chriſtians is not of this world, ergo they hauehave no nede of a magiſtrate, and to ſay: The kingdom of y^e Chriſtians, is not of this world: ergo, they nede no meate. For meat is eaten in this world.

SI.

If y^e ſpirit of a chriſtian man, is a true ſpiryt he hurteth no man. If he hurteth no body, what nedeth he a magyſtrate.

IOI.

Paul anſwereth y^e. Princes are not fearful vntounto them y^t do wel, but to them y^t do euil. Wilt thou not feare the power? Do y^e thing y^t is good. and y^u ſhalt hauehave praiſe of it: for he is the miniſter of god, for thy good. Yf thou doeſt that thinge, which is euyll, feare, for he bereth not the ſwerd in vaine But he is the miniſter of god, to take puniſhment & vengeaunce of hym, y^t doth y^e thinge which is euill. Wherfore we muſt be ſubiects or obedient, not onelyonly for fear of punyſhment, but alſo for cōſcience ſake

SIM,

There ſhal be no nede of al theſe thinges: for the chriſtian knoweth, what Chriſt hath ſaied: Do not reſiſt or w^tſtand y^e euil.

IOI.

It is trew, a chriſtian ought not to reuenge him ſelfe raſhly, ſith y^t the ſame doth perteine to y^e magiſtrate. But this doth beguile you,The libertins and Anabaptiſtes do dreame that Chriſtians do not ſynne nor commyt any fa…te. that ye do ymagin & dream, y^t the chriſtian people is ſuch, as it is not, nor euer was, nor euer ſhall be, yea ſuch, as it can not be: ye wyl, I ſay, y^e chriſtians to be of ſuch a perfection, y^t no man ſhal fall, or ſyn emong thē. In thys ye are deceyued. For, although there be many good mē, yet notw^tſtandyng there be many mo hipocrites. And y^e old & auncient partiarks, had y^e ſame cōmaundemē tes y^t they ſhuld hurte no man, they that were good in dede, & godly, did wrong to no bodye, yet for the wycked ſake y^t were emong them, there were, yea, them ſelfes were magiſtrates.

SIMON.

Yf wee were trewe chriſtians, we ſhuld hauehave no nede of Magiſtrates.

IOI.

The old patriarkes were very godly men, & yet not w^tſtanding they had nede of a magiſtrate not for them ſelues, but for y^e wicked ſake We do not ſpeake of y^t, yf we were ſuch,If we had y^e, that we hauehave not, we wold do that, which we do not. but of y^t, y^t we are. Syth thē, y^t we be not as we ought to be, it is neceſſary, that we hauehave y^t, w^t out y^t which, it is impoſſible for vsus to liue. Yf we had great riches, truely we ſhuld be rich, if we had great lerning we ſhould w^tout doubt, be great clearkes But we may not ſo gather, ergo, we nede not to labor, we nede not to ſtudy. Yf we had winges we ſhuld flee, ſith then y^t we hauehave no winges, we hauehave nede of fete to go.

SIM.

We are al together vndone & loſte. we are cleane caſt awaie, for we are no trew chriſtians.

IOI.

Why ſo?

SI

Becauſe that we are yet ſoo vnperfite y^t we hauehave nede of a magiſtrate.

IO.

Doſt y^u not yet vnderſtande, y^t the magiſtrate is for the wicked ſake, y^e honeſty and vertue may be ſafe emong y^e euyl perſons,Why the Magiſtrate is ordeyned of God. and y^e god hath ordeyned it?

SIM.

I do not vnderſtand, howe it hath bene ordeyned of god, ſyth that Chriſt ſayth: Do not ye reſiſt or withſtand euyll.

IOI.

He doth forbid that no priuate perſon,No priuate perſon oughte to reuenge his wrong, for y^e belongeth to y^e magiſtrate. ſhuld of affection, reuenge his wronge, he doth not forbid, y^t a magiſtrate ſhuld not puniſſhe the euyl doers. For the power is the myniſter of god, to puniſh & take vengeance of them y^t do committe euyl. Alſo, where Chriſt ſaith, when any man goeth about to take away thy cloke, giuegive him alſo thy rote, if thou doſt conferre it with y^e place of Paul. i. Cor. vi. cha, thou ſhalt fynd y^e ſame ſaying, to be ſomewhat mollifyed, when he doth permit y^t there ſhuld be iudgementes emong chriſtians, for thinges perteinyng to y^e life.

SIM.

If y^u doſt diſcuſſe diligently y^e words of Paul, y^u ſhalt fynd y^e Paul permitteth no ſuch thing to y^e chriſtians.

IOI.

Theſe be y^e words of Paul: Can any of you abide, hauing buſines, or to do w^t an other, too be iudged vnderunder vnryghtfull iudges, & not rather vnderunder y^e ſainctes? Do ye not know y^t the ſaints ſhal iudge y^e world? And if y^e world be iudged by you, are ye vnworthye of ſmal iugements? Do ye not know y^t we ſhal iudge angels, & not only thoſe thinges y^t pertain to y^e liuing? Therfore yf ye hauehave iudgements, touching thoſe things y^e pertain to y^e vſe of life, make thē iudges y^t are vileſt in y^e congregatiō, I do ſpeake to your ſhame. Is there not emong you a wyſe man? not as muche as one? whych can geue iudgement betwene brother and brother? But one brother ſtriueth with an other, and y^e vnderunder infidels. Therfore nowe there is a great fault in you, y^e ye hauehave ſtrife emong you.The place of Paul is diſcuſſed. Why do not ye rather ſuffer wrong Whye do ye not receiue harme? yea, but rather ye do iniury and wronge, and y^t to your brethren. Theſe, I ſay, be the wordes of Paul, wherbye we do learne, that we ought rather to ſuffer wrong, and to receiue paciently harme, then to ſtryue & contende emong our ſelues, wheruntoo Chriſt, in the .vi. of Mathewe, hath a reſpecte. But if thys, for the imbecyllytye, weakenes, and corruption of our fleſſhe, can not be done, there be Magyſtrates, courtes, and iudges, before whom, ſuche matters, if any do chaunce, may be diſcuſſed and pacifyed, too the intents, that he, which ſuffreth wrong, may be reuenged and he that doth the wrong, may be puniſſhed and holden in.Wherefore courtes and iudges ſerue, looke vponupon thys, O ye iudges. Now they that ſo contend before a iudge, for thynges that pertayne to the vſe of lyfe, are chriſtians for Paul ſaith: One brother doth wrong to an other, whom he commaundeth (yf nede do ſo require) to ſue for their righte before chriſtian iudges. For brothe… and chriſtian, are al one. Finally, by the foreſayd wordes, it may be manifeſtly gathered, that a chriſtian may execute y^e offyce of a magiſtrate.Saynctes are euerye where in the ſcriptur taken for the faythfull. For he apointed the ſaintes to be iudges, and here the ſainctes be put for the faithfull whom he wil rather to be choſen of the vileſt ſorte in the congregation, then that they ſhould repayre to vnfaithfull iudges.

Of all theſe thinges we do gather and conclude that the faithfull hauehave nede of a magiſtrate, ſith that the congregation is gathered of good and euyll, the faithfull them ſelues being in the fleſh, as long as they liue. And again, ſith that the Patriarkes and elect of god, had nede of a magiſtrate: We hauehave no leſſe nede then thei had. Therfore the magiſtrate is not onelyonly profitable, but alſo moſt neceſſary to a chriſtian common weale.