Light for Smoke, Section 17
SECT. XVII. The ſettling of Government falſly ſuggeſted to be hereticall, with an implicit reproach upon the Parliament. Of the truth of Sleidans ſtory of the Anabaptiſts in Germany. A raſh cenſure of Luther, and the Lutherans in Germany for oppoſing them. A caveat to England to take warning by Germany. The Miniſters practice ſlandered, and the Magiſtrate diſhonoured by Mr. Saltm.
Smoke. Pag. 45. VVHether may not your ſettling things thus be as great an hereſie as you complaine againſt? Be ſparing, you may call thoſe truths which you now call hereſies. *See the like. p. 13.Paul preached that Doctrine after, which before be deſtroyed.
Light.What ſettling doe you meane? the debates, and votes, and advice of the Aſſembly to the Parliament, (which is all they doe) are no ſettlings of any thing; for when they are preſented to them, they come under their examination againe; but nothing is ſettled in Government, untill, after their diſcuſſion and reſolution, their civill Sanction be ſet upon it; and how ſhould this be an hereſie, as great an hereſie as we complaine of? we complain of all hereſies, what will be the conſequence of this implicit charge? can the Parliament ſettle hereſie and not be hereticks? nay worſe then ſo, for it is farre worſe to ſettle an hereſie, and to authoriſe it to ſo many thouſands as are under the power of the Parliament, then for any, or many particular perſons to hold an hereſie. And whereas you intimate a change of my minde, ſo farre as that I may be like, after the example of Paul, to preach for that Doctrine which now I deſtroy, I truſt (not in my ſelfe, but in the ſupport of Divine grace) that I ſhall alwaies be ſo farre opſite or adverſe unto you, untill you be ſettled, as to be conſtant to the truth I have beleeved, and profeſſed, while you runne your ſelfe giddy in the circle of erroneous, or hereticall opinions.
Smoke. Pag. 46. To that of the Anabaptiſts and Sectaries quenched by Luthers mediation you ſay, I dave not beleeve your Hiſtorian, nor take all againſt them from the Pen of an enemy. He that takes the Parliaments Batiels from an Oxford Pon, ſhall reade nothing but rebellion rather them religion. And me thinkes I obſerve much here in your obſervation to the contrary.
Light.You ſay you dare not beleeve my Hiſtorian againſt the Anabaptiſts, more then an Oxford Pen concerning the Battels of the Parliament, from whence you ſhall read nothing but Rebellion rather then Religion; as if the warre of the Anabaptiſts were as warrantable as that of the Parliament, or Iohn Sleydan as contemptible, and incredible a Writer as Mercurius Aulicus, or Mercurius Academicus; which makes me thinke you have not read Sleydan, for if you had, you would obſerve and acknowledge in him as many foreign of a true Hiſtorian as in moſt, whether of the ancient or latter Ages, and ſo the moſt judicious Proteſtants eſteeme of him; The Papiſts I confeſſe undervalue him as you doe, and ſome of themaSurius Preface in Ioh. Naucler. generat. Beruard. Dorhof. Apodeix. Calviniſt. non eſſe Aug. Confeſ. c. 4. Claud. Verderii Cenſiones. p. 8. b. vilifie him, as if he partially inclined to the Lutheran party againſt the Popiſh; yet ſome of them give him the praiſe of a good Hiſtorian, asbJoh. Bod. Method. hiſt. c. 6. p. 48, 49. Iohn Bodine in his Method of hiſtory; and for the ſtory of the Anabaptiſts and their fanatick fancies, and furious uprores, they are not onelyonly recorded by Sleydan, but by others, as bycPhilip Lonicerus. Theatr. hiſt. p. 107, &c. Philip Lonicerus, and bydBulliuger adverſus Anabapt. l. 2. c. 8, 9, 10, 11. Bullinger in his Booke againſt that Sect; byeFred. Spanbemii Diatrib. Hiſtor. de Orig. progreſ. &c. Anabaptiſt. in Appendice ad Clepenburgil Gangranam Anabaptiſt. p. 386. &c. where he citeth Luther, Melancthon, Zwingliut, Menius, & Regius. Ibid. p. 393. Spanhemius, byfCourad. Heresbach. I. C. hiſtoria Anabaptiſt. de factione Monaſterionſs anno 1534. ad Eraſm. Roterod. Epiſt. forma anno 1536. deſcript. excuſ. Amſterdam. per Henricum Laurentium. Conradus Hereſbachius, gTheodor. Strachii hypomnemat. & notae in illam Epiſt. eiſdem loco & anno excuſ.Theodorus Strachius, and byhLambert. Hortenſ. lib. tumult. Ansbapt. anno 1548. Bafil. edit …. Lambertus Hortenſius.
Smoke. Pag. 46. We may rather thinke that Germany is a field of bloud to this day for ſhedding the blood of ſo many conſciences for ſome points of difference, and for Luthers mediation againſt them: looke well and tell me how much the Lutherans there have advanced in the reformation, have they not rather ſtood like Ioſhuahs Sunne where he left them?
Light.This againe ſheweth that you have not read, or not well conſidered of the principles and practices of the Anabaptiſts; which were ſuch both againſt God and man, as could not conſiſt with the ſafetie either of the Church or State; and therefore your cenſure of the ſinne and judgement of Germany, and of the Lutherans, is a preſumptuous perching into Gods Tribunall.
Smoke. Pag. 46. Let England take warning by Germany.
Light.Good counſell I confeſſe, but not in your ſence, in favour of ſuch Sects, or feare of oppoſing their fancies, or ſtopping their proceedings; but let England take warning by Germany for being too indulgent to them, upon their illuſive pretences of more illumination, and ſpirituall communion with God, then other men enjoy.
Smoke. Pag. 46. Let your warfare be ſpirituall, your weapons not carnall, put on the armour of light, and take them by a Gospel ſiege, and we are ſatisfied. But if you take them with the power of the Magiſtrate, with ſwords and ſtaves as they tooke Chriſt; if you come in this Goſpel controverſie to take them as the Parliament takes in their Towns and Cities, as your inſtance ſeemer to imply, take heed left you …ed were ſpirituall blood to that under the Altar, that … ceaſes to cry, How long Lord, how long?
Light. If you ſpeake this to the Miniſters, their warfare is none other then ſpirituall; nor is the Magiſtrate their miniſter, to take Sectaries with ſwords or ſtaves if their tranſgreſſions deſerve it, ſince therein they doe their owne worke, whereto by their office they are obliged; and when they doe ſo, you ſhould not ſo diſparage the Magiſtrates as to match them with ſuch wicked Officers as ſet upon our bleſſed Saviour, and with violent hands violated the Majeſtie and Piety of his Perſon; nor ſo honour ſuch hereticall Incendiaries, and ſlaughter men as thoſe Anabaptiſts were, as to compare them to Chriſt. And for your caveat againſt ſhedding of ſpirituall blood, if you meane by that phraſe the blood of Sectaries, or Hereticks, whom ſome take to be more ſpirituall then other men, they are many of them very carnall Goſpellers; and if ſpirituall, rather ſuch as are led by a wicked ſpirit, the ſuggeſter of hereticall untruths, and tempter to diabolicall blaſphemies, and outrages, then ſuch as are guided by the Spirit of truth and holineſſe: and if by ſpirituall blood you meane (as the moſt judicious commonly uſe and underſtand the phraſe) the blood of ſoules; it is that which ingageth the Magiſtrates to repreſſe hereticall Teachers, for by drawing others to hereſie they are guilty of the blood of ſoules; and they are all guilty of that blood who doe not all they can, according to their place and power, to prevent the ſhedding of it by ſeducing Doctors; for zeale in this cauſe I have cited ſome lively and vigorous ſayings of the Ancients in my former *Sect. 12. p. 13.Book, to which I remit you.
Smoke. Pag. 46. So as you will have an hazard runne both in State and Church for a new experiment upon the Miniſters; but ſure your Statiſts will tell you it is not ſafe trying experiments with States, they are too vaſt bodies for that; what thinke you of that Phyſician who will caſt his Patient into a diſeaſe to trie a cure on him? you know the old morall Adage, Turpius ejicitur quam non admittitur hoſpes.
light. To your exception we have not yet any experience of our new Clergie, myaExamination of the New Querie. Sect. 10. p. 32. Anſwer was, Then they cannot yet be charged with miſgovernment of the people; and how can there be experience of them, if there be no Government to try them withall? but we have experience of much evill for want of Government, asbIbid. I told you before. And for that you ſay, your Statiſts will tell you it is not ſafe trying experience with States, which you illuſtrate by a ſimilitude of a Phyſician caſting his Patient into a diſeaſe to try a cure on him: I like it very well in thoſe, and being rightly applied it makes much againſt you, and the toleration you plead for, for we have found it by wofull experience, that ſome politick Mountebankes have made a perillous experiment upon our State by connivence at, and preſſing for a toleration of many erroneous, and ſome very hereticall Sects; the cure whereof the longer it is delayed will be more difficult and more dangerous to the ſoules of the people, in whom errour and hereſie ſpread, and eat like a canker, or gangrene as in the Greeke, 2 Tim. 2.17.