Light for Smoke, Section 10 – Section 12
SECT. X. A Compariſon of young men and old, for prudence and counſell. Of viſions and dreames, where the ſecond of Ioel verſ. 28. and Act. 2.17. are vindicated from Mr. Saltm. his miſtaking and miſapplication of them.
Smoke. Pag. 29. To that of Iob — which you apply in way of reproach to the younger, whom you call as it were greene heads, &c.Smoke. p.. 29.
Light.In ſtead of acknowledgement of your miſapplication of Iob 32. verſ. 6, 7. where with I charge you, Sect. 4. pag. 14. of my Booke, you lay a charge upon me, for reproaching the younger with the name of green-heads. That the impartiall Reader may be the better able to judge betwixt us both, I will ſet down firſt my words to you, then yours to me; my words are theſe.
For his Epiphonema with the words of Elihu forementioned, which are taken out of Iob 32. verſ. 6, 7. Why doe not dayes ſpeake, and multitude of yeares teach knowledge? they make nothing for his purpoſe; for the meaning of them is not, that Government, or Diſcipline, or any other uſefull thing ſhould not be with all convenient ſpeed eſtabliſhed, but that the ancient with whom is wiſdome, Iob 12.12. the gray-headed and very aged men, Chap. 15.10. who have had the experience of many dayes and yeeres, ſhould be heard, and heeded in matters of adviſe, and conſultation, before ſuch green-headed Counſellours as Rehoboam followed to his ruine, 1 Kings 12.13, 14.
Smoke. Pag. 29.And your Anſwer to them is, The elder I eſteeme as Fathers, and the younger we know are ſuch in whom the Lord ſpeakes more gloriouſly, as he himſelfe ſaith, Your young men ſhall ſee viſions, and upon your ſonnes and daughters will I powre out my ſpirit, your old men ſhall dreame deames. Now whether is it more excellent to dreame dreames, or to ſee viſions? The Lord delivered Iſrael by the young men of the Provinces; Surely we may more ſafely hearken to the younger that ſee viſions of reformation, then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onelyonly.
Light.I ſpake no more either in praiſe of old men, or diſparagement of young then conduced to cleare the Text in queſtion betwixt us, yet thence you have taken occaſion to magnifie young men, and to vilifie the old, alleadging the ſaying of the Prophet Ioel, Your old men ſhall dreame dreames, and your young men ſhall ſee viſions, and thereupon demanding, whether is more excellent to dreame dreames, or to ſee viſions: you reſolve the Queſtion your ſelfe thus; Surely, we may more ſafely hearken to the younger that ſee viſions of Reformation, then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onelyonly.
And doe all, or onelyonly, or moſt young men ſee viſions of Reformation? and all, or onelyonly, or moſt old men but dreame dreames of it? If there be not ſuch an Antitheſis betwixt them, your comparative theſis is an errour of youth, a ſlander of age, and I ſhall not doubt, if you take up a duell with me in this quarrell, with the old mans crutch (bring what weapons you will or can) to beat you out of the field, or at leaſt to give you the foyle.
But beſides your diſparagement of old men, I have ſome what to ſay to you for miſtaking and miſapplying the words of the Prophet, Ioel 2.28. brought in by the Apeſtle, Act. 2.17. firſt, for the defence of old men; you make as if it were ſafer to hearken to young men then to them, as if the young men were wiſer counſellours then the old.
I grant before-hand that ſometimes there may be young men, (as Ioſeph, Daniel, and Samuel,) who may have a ſpirit of wiſdome, and thereby may be fit to give counſell, and to governe the wayes of the aged; but ſetting aſide ſingular and extraordinary examples, compare age & youth in the generall, and the reſolution of reaſon and example will be, that old men are fitter to direct and guide the young, then contrariwiſe; for in old men the paſſions and perturbations of the minde (which give great impediment to prudence, (for they are to reaſon as fumes and vapours about a candle, which dimme the light thereof) are more ſubdued then in young men. Beſides experience (which is both the parent of wiſdome, of which it is begotten, and the nurſe which bringeth it on to a further growth and proficiency) falls not within the fathome of a young mans reach, but of the old man; hence is it that Solomon ſaith; The hoary head is a …rowne of glory if it be found in the way of righteouſneſſe, Prov. 16.31. and that by the law, the younger ſort were to riſe up before the hoary head, and to honour the face of the old man, Levit. 19.32. For with the ancient is wiſdome, and in length of dayes underſtanding, Iob 12.12.
And hence it is, that the Counſellours and Governours of Common-weales, are called Senators, and their Aſſembly*Senatus nomen dedit aetas, nam i…dem. patres ſunt. Quintil. Inſtit orat. l. 1. c. 6. p. 38. Senatus, from age: and in the old Teſtament they are called the Elders of Iſrael, and in the New thoſe whoſe function requireth of them a wiſdome of the beſt kinde, and higheſt degree, (for it muſt be ſuch a wiſdome as muſt goe beyond his ſubtiltie who deceiveth all the world, Rev. 12.6.9.) are called Preſbyters, a word in Greeke of the ſame ſignification with Elders in Engliſh. And for example you cannot be forgetfull of the Story of R…h…boams old and young Counſellours, 1 King. 12. nor what prelation is given to the old above the young in that Story; and while you remember it, you ſhould not ſway the preeminence on the young mens ſide againſt the old men, as you have done.
Beſides the Scriptures, there be manifold inſtances againſt your fence in the difference of age and youth, I will minde you of ſome, as that ofaTuum eſt undecun que evocare & aſcribere tibi (exemple Moſis) ſenes, non juvenes Ber. de Conſ. lib. 4. cap. 4. col. 886. Bernard counſelling Eugenius to call to him Counſellours (as Moſes did) that were old men, not young men; and of the Lacedemonians, of whombApud Lacedaemonies ii qui ampliſſimuns magiſtratum gerunt, ut ſunt, ſic etiam appellantur ſenes. Cicer. Cat…. Major. ſeu de Senect. Tom. 3. …p… rum Cicer. pag. 408. in fol. Cicero ſaith, that they who are the chiefe Magiſtrates, whoſe authoritie is of moſt ample extent, as they are, ſo they are called old men.
And among the Romans aged prudence was ſo much honoured, thatcVt quiſ que atate antecellit, ita ſententia principatum abtine…. Ibid. pag. 415. in the Colledge of Sages, Sentences were partly valued by ſenioritie. And there is good ground for this great eſtimation of old men,dMaximas Respub. per adoleſcentes labefast…s, à ſenibus ſuſte…ates & reſti…as reperiatis. Ibid. p. 408. for great Common-weales, as he ſheweth, which have been ruined by young men, have been repaired and reſtored by old men. Such as Ageſilaus was, whom (though among the vulgar Egyptians, (when he came into their Countrey, and they ſaw no ſtately traine about him, but an old gray beard laid on the graſſe by the ſeaſide,) a little man that looked ſimply on the matter, in a thread bare gowne fell a laughing at him) yet the chiefe Captaines and Governours of King Tachis honourably received, and were marvellouſly deſirous to ſee him, for the great fame that went abroad of him and he was famous for his wiſdome both Military and Civill, ascPlutarch. in Ageſil. pag. 629.630. Plutarch reporteth in the Story of his life. To him I could adde many examples of later time, and neerer home; I will name only one, and that is my Reverend brotherfSee his booke de Diphthongis aut Bivocatibus. Mr. Tho. Gataker, who though he have been an old man a great while, hath given (of late ſince his ſickneſſe, and ſeceſſion from the Aſſembly) ſuch a ſpecimen of a pregnant apprehenſion and faithfull memory, as may aſſure a judicious Reader, that albeit his body be weake, his braine is not ſo; though his head have been long gray, his wit is yet greene and flouriſhing.
Secondly, Now for mine other exception againſt your compariſon; In it you not onelyonly give preeminence to young men before old, but preferre them in this, that young men ſee viſions of reformation, and old men dreame dreames of it onelyonly; wherein you wrap up three particulars, which you take for granted, but it will be an harder taske then you imagine to prove any one of them.
Firſt, That Revelations by viſions are more excellent then thoſe that come by dreames.
Secondly, That viſions aſcribed to young men are denied to old men.
Thirdly, That young men have viſions of reformation, old men onelyonly dreame of it; whereas
Firſt,gDuo Revelationum modi, per ſomnium ſcilicet & per viſionem imaginariam vigilanti objectam, non ſe ſuperant mutuo ratione excellentioris potentiae vel praeſtantioris modi cognoſcendi, cum uter que perficiatur in imaginativa. Jacob. Bonfrer. in Numb. 12.6. pag. 78…. col. 1. ſome learned men have reſolved that viſions are not more excellent then dreames, and the reaſons may be; Firſt, becauſe in Scripture they are brought in as Revelations, though different, yet without prelation of the one before the other, as Numb. 12. If there be a Prophet among you, I the Lord will make my ſelfe known unto him in a viſion, and ſpeake unto him in a dreame, Num. 12.6. Secondly, as great matters are repreſented in dreames as in viſions, as the affliction of the children of Iſrael in Egypt, and their deliverance was revealed to Abraham in a dreame, Gen. 15.12. and the intercourſe betwixt heaven and earth, in the miniſtery of Angels was repreſented to Jacob in a dreame, Gen. 28.12. It was in a dreame that Solomon had the ſingular wiſdome imparted to him, 1 King. 3.5. By a dreame was the conception of Ieſus Chriſt by the Holy Ghoſt revealed to Ioſeph, Matth. 1.20. and the plot of perdition againſt him, with the way to prevent it, Matt. 2.13.
Thirdly, as for the matter, ſo for the manner, Revelation by a dreame is as cleare, and as ſure as by a viſion; as in that of Abraham, of Iacob, of Solomon, of Ioſeph forementioned; to which we may adde that of Abimelech, Gen. 20.3. and out of humane Authours; the dreame ofhHieron. Epiſt. ad Euſtoch. de cuſtod. Virg. Tom. 1. p. 146. 147. Hierome, wherein he was brought before the Tribunall of Chriſt, and denied to be a Chriſtian, becauſe he was too much a Ciceronian, and was adjudged to bee ſcourged, and was ſo, and in the morning he found his ſhoulders blew with his beating; and the dreame ofiHospinian. in Hiſt. Sacram. part. alt. fol. 26. & Rivet. Exercit. in Gen. 28. Exercit. 123. p. 603. Zuinglius againſt the Maſſo, had an evidence of the matter very cleare (though for the Authour he was uncertain.)
But we may ſay further that dreames have an excellency above viſions, and the reaſon is this: That which hath more of God, and leſſe of man, is more excellent then that which contrariwiſe hath more of man and leſſe of God: now in dreames there is more of God, and leſſe of man; becauſe in ſleepe the ſenſes are bound up, and ſo there is more communion betwixt the ſpirit of God, and the ſoule of man, and leſſe interruption in that communion then to men awake; ſo that in dreames there is no diſturbing of the Revelation by the concurrence of ſenſuall objects, no denying or ſuſpending of aſſent by examination of reaſon, as Dr.kRivet. ubi ſupra. Rivet well obſerveth. And the reaſon is ratified by naturall Philoſophy, for the minde (ſaithlViget animus in ſomniis, liber que ſenſibus ab omn… impeditione curarum jacente et mortuo paene corpore. Cicer. de Divinat. lib. 1. pag. 274. Cicere) in dreames is vigorous, being free from ſenſes, and from all interruption of cares, the body, the while being in a manner dead. And elſewhere hemDormientium animi maxime declarant divinitatem ſuam, multa enim cum remiſſi & liberi ſint futura prospiciunt, ex que intelligitur quaeles futuri ſint cum ſe plane corporis vinculis relaxaverint. Cicer. de Senect. p. 417. ſaith, that the minds of men aſleepe declare their divinitie, for when they are relaxed and free, they foreſee many future things, whence it may be gathered what they will be hereafter, when they are wholly releaſed from bonds of the body.
The ſecond Particular which your comparative ſpeech implyeth is, that viſions aſcribed to young men are denied to old men; whereas old men have their viſions as well as young; as John the Evangeliſt though he were young when he came firſt to be a Diſciple of his and our great Maſter, had his Revelations by viſion in the Iſle of Pathmus when he was old, viz. in the 96. yeer of Chriſt, which muſt be at leaſt the 80. yeere of Johns age, if we ſuppoſe him to be but 14. yeeres old at the entrance of his attendance on him, and younger we cannot reaſonably imagine him to have been at that time.
A third thing which in your compariſon of young men and old for viſions and dreames. I may not admit of, is, that you bring it to the matter of reformation, and make it as if the young men had ſeent a viſion, and that old men had but ſome darke notions of it, like unto a nightly dreame; which is ſo preſumptuous and groundleſſe a conceit that your moſt waking thoughts cannot make it ſeeme otherwiſe to any ſound underſtanding, then a vapour of a young mans bragge, or the vanity of a ſick mans dreame.
SECT. XI. Mr. Saltm. his inſufficient anſwer and figurative trifting unworthy of an Anſwer.
Smoke. Pag. 29. FOr that of the converſion from Paganiſme to Chriſtianitie, there is no ſuch disproportion, &c.
Light.If the indifferent Reader will turne to the place, pag. 15. of my Booke, he ſhall perceive your Anſwer to my Text (which you doe not faithfully repeat) is very inſufficient, and if he read your words firſt, and mine after, he will take them for a confutation of yours, not yours for a confutation of mine; and the like hath been ſaid by a judicious Reader for a great part of your Reply.
Smoke. Pag. 30. But we are ſpeaking of the ſpirituall building or Church here, which is the image of the Church above; and as that is of true, reall, eſſentially ſpirituall living ſtones, ſo the Church below is to conſiſt at leaſt of ſuch as viſibly and formally appeare ſo.
Light.In this and many other paſſages of your Booke you are rather typicall in repreſentation, then topicall in proofe; you follow your Allegory ſo farre, that to follow you therein is rather to dally then to diſpute; Beſides, the reſult of your exception either cloſeth with my ſence, or ſtrayeth from the queſtion in difference betwixt us; and if in ſuch particulars I do not trace your ſteps, think not I could not anſwer you, but that I would not trouble my ſelfe, nor tire the Reader with trifling impertinencie.
SECT. XII. A compariſon of Preſbyterians and Independents in point of ſtrictneſſe and looſeneſſe in admiſſion of members; of the mixture in the Church of Corinth.
Smoke. Pag. 32. LEt the doores of our Churches be as ſtrait as you imply, I am ſure your doores are ſet open, or rather caſt off the hinges.
Light.That the doores of our Churches are no ſtraiter may be partly imputed to ſome of your party, who have no minde of ſuch a through reformation as would deprive them of an opportunity and occaſion of gathering of Churches; which could have no pretence, if the Reformation were wrought up to ſuch a pitch as the Presbyterians deſire.
And if our doores be ſet too open, or caſt off the hinges, it is in permitting Independents ſuch a libertie of Lecturing in our Churches, to preach againſt Presbytery, as they would never yeeld to Presbyterians, were it in their power to prohibit them.
But Sr. I beleeve, in ſome reſpects neither commendable, nor warrantable, your doores are more open then ours, your hinges more looſe then ours, your walles much more wide, or rather you have neither doores, nor hinges, nor walles to bound your memberſhip; for if you had, how could people of London, Holland, New England, be members of the ſame particular Church, as before hath beene objected unto you? but this is not cardo controverſiae betwixt you and me.
Smoke. Pag. 32. To that of your challenge that I ſhould ſhew any ſuch example in the New Teſtament, of taking out the beſt when there was a mixture of holy and profane; I anſwer: Theſe were Gospel Churches gathered by the Word and Spirit into Gospel fellowſhip, and when you make your Pariſhes to appeare ſuch Churches, then I ſhall tell you more, till then I ſhall ſuspend your challenge.
Light.By this Reply I ſee (though you take time to anſwer a challenge) you will rather foile your ſelfe, then ſeeme to be foiled by your Antagoniſt; for if Goſpel Churches, gathered by the Word and Spirit into Goſpel fellowſhip, as you ſtate the caſe, may conſiſt of ſuch godly and ungodly members, as were in the Church of Corinth, 1 Cor. 11.21. then for all your pretence of your Goſpel way you have no warrant for ſuch a ſeparation as you take upon you to make. Beſides, Sr. the ſeparation of people is not to be varied in regard of the Church way of gathering into fellowſhip, which is extrinſecall, but in regard of the difference of perſons as they are holy or profane; but with you, it ſeemes, if the manner of gathering be ſuch as you call a Goſpel way, it matters not much whether the matter of the Church be holy or unholy; and indeed, though you exclude from coming into your Churches ſome kind of wicked ones, you admit of thoſe whom without repentance God will never account of the communion of Saints, ſuch as are notoriouſly covetous, proud, ſlanderous, and malicious, who have no more viſible intereſt in Chriſt then a fornicator, or drunkard, a ſwearer, or Sabbath-breaker.