Disputations Concerning Matters of Religion, Discourse · Chapter 1
CHAP. I. How ſome have been and are averſe from, or adverſe to diſputations in Religion: how farre and for what reaſons.
SOme are not altogether againſt diſputations in Religion, but are jealous over them with a godly jealouſy, as Paul was over his Corinthians, 2 Cor. 11.2. leſt they ſhould be inconſiderately undertaken, or indiſcreetly managed, and ſo asbIſti dum nimium ſcalpunt veritatem amittunt (ut acutusille mimi verſiculus;) nimium altercando veritas amittitur. Ludovic. Vives de cauſis corruptar. artiū. l. 3. p 127. Ludovicus Vives ſaith; The truth by too much ſcratching and alteration ſhould be loſt; leſt errour by artificiall arguments and ornaments ſhould have ſuch a glorious flouriſh and varniſh ſet upon it, as to make it to be taken for the truth: which is not unlike to fall out; for ſomecInterdum orichalcum magis exprimit colorem auri quā aurum ipſum. Ibid. Copper (ſaith he,) hath a more glorious Luſtre then ſome true gold. And nothing, asdNihil eſt tam incredibile quod non dicendo fiat probabile; nihil tam horridum, tam incultum, quod non splendeſcat oration…. Cicer. paradox, Prooem. p. 436. Num. 3. Cicero obſerveth in the prooeme of his Paradoxes, is ſo incredible, but by elequence it may be made to appeare probable. Nothing is ſo horrid, but by a garniſh of words it may be made to ſhine. This impoſture is eaſily put upon the vulgar; foreNihil tam facile quàm vilem plebeculam linguae volubilitate decipere, quae quicquid non intelligit plus admiratur. Hierom. ad Nepor. de vita Cler. Tom. 1. p. 14. it is very eaſy with volubility of tongue to deoeive the ſimple common people, who What they do not perceive with understanding, they receive with admiration; nor can theyfGarrulitatem authoritatem putant. Idem. Epiſt. Ocean. vol. 2. p. 324. put a due difference betwixt garrulity and authority: And they are commonly more affected with what they ſay who gainſay ſolid and long believed verity under pretence of new diſcoveries of truth; and errour then with what hath warrant from the word of God, and conſent of all the Chriſtian Churches of the world, both of ancient or of later times: and the fallacy takes with them the more tenderly, becauſe theſe Novell Dogmatiſts make a faire profeſſion of mortification and ſelf-deniall, refuſing thoſe advantages and accommodations of a comfortable living, which their oppoſites do enjoy; and bear themſelves boldly againſt authority, as if they meant to merit that Elogium which the Diſciples of the Pha…iſees with the Herodians gave of our Saviour, Mat. 22.16. Maſter we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God truth; neither careſt thou for any man, for thou regardeſt not the perſonſ of man. And therefore they ſet up what Religion they plea…e, making their conventicles when and what they pleaſe, and in them ſpeaking of God and man what they pleaſe, that which is fitter to be whiſpered in the dark or rather buried in eternall ſilence, then as Divine dictates, as our Saviour would have them, publiſhed on the houſe-top, Luk. 12.3. yet that their more private carriage of their profeſſion in Chimnie-houſes, where there is ever more ſmoke then light, may not be interpreted to their prejudice, as if they had not conſcience and confidence to own their tenets in publick; they have preſumed many times, even the weaker ſex hath ſo much ſtrength of fancy and will, as to offer to ſet up their new lights in our ſteeplehouſes, and to call our Preachers down from their Pulpits, as having no calling from God to be Preachers of the Goſpel: and herein many of the ſhallower fort do ſo applaud themſelves, that they had rather appeal to them to be their judges,gFactus eſt populus ſpectator, arbiter, Index. Ludovic. Vives. de cauſis corrupt. artium. l. 1. p. 38. as ſome judicious writers have obſerved, then to any others; &hInde arrogantia, quod aliquod ſibi viderentur quia ſtulto judici videbantur. Idem l. 3. p. 327. they arrogantly applaud themſelves in their approbation. But that which maketh the wiſer ſort more unwilling to give too much way to religious diſputations, or rather to diſputations of Religion (eſpecially in publick) is the ſubtilty of ſome of unſound principles & the ſimplicity of others of a better belief; who ſuſpecting no deceipt, & confiding in the ſtrength of truth, are eaſily intangled with ingagements to diſpute to the greateſt diſadvantage of their cauſe, not forethinking how their adverſaries may be furniſhed for aſſault; and what liberty of miſreport they will take, either to make ſhew of victory, or to ſhadow a foil; this inconvenience is obvious to an ordinary apprehenſion: But there are ſome ſtratagematicall depths, and policies of thoſe who are Maſters in the Myſteries of iniquity, both of the old and new Antichriſtian faction, which I confeſſe my ſhallowneſſe had not imagined, had I not been informed of them by a double teſtimony of good account and credit; the one was told me by a Learned Scotchman, a great Traveller, when we met and became well acquainted in Oxford, which though above 4 yeares ago I very well remember it was thus. The Proteſtants of Luthers and Calvins profeſſion have had many diſputes and conferences in ſeverall places, whichiThe Proteſtants have had above 100 meetings, conferences, diſputations, councels and Synods, from their firſt diſputation held at Lypſia upon the year 1519 to their ſynod in Vilna, 590. So Parſons Preface to the 10. diſputations recounted by John Fox, v. 26. he takes his ingelligence from. Staniſlaus Reſcaus his obſervations, and meanes, though he do not particularly quote his Book, wch he calleth Miniſtromachiam, in qua Evangelicorum Magiſtrorum & Miniſtro… de evangelicis magiſtris & miniſtris mutua judicia Teſtimonia &c. recenſentur. E…uſ. Coleniae. apud Henric. Falken. birg. 1522. Parſons numbers to above a 100. betwixt them; at one of their meetings, which brought them near a concluſion of accord, there came in a man in the name of a Lutheran Miniſter, which deſired to be heard, and he was admitted to ſpeak; and he ſo ſet up ſoothed and animated the Lutherans, to ſtand out againſt all complyance with the Calviniſts, and ſo exaſperated the Calviniſts with reproch, that they went away worſe minded towards each other, then they were when at firſt they met together. The other cunning device was, of ſome of our Engliſh Sectaries about the yeare 1647. And that was a plot upon a diſpute managed in this manner; ſome of them had provoked a Miniſter (learned enough for his time, but too young to match them in ſubtilty either of caution or of contrivance) to a publick diſpute, which he accepted of: and though he acted his part as well as could be expected of one of his parts and yeares, yet he rather loſt then gained reputation to his cauſe or perſon, becauſe one of their ſide pretending himſelf till then to be of a contrary judgement to theirs, at the cloſe of the diſpute, openly profeſſed his conviction and converſion to their party by the ſatisfaction he had received at that diſputation; whereas it was afterward dicovered that he was a great Zelot to that cauſe and party in former times, which (together with the other particulars fore mentioned) induced me to propoſe unto my Brethren of the Miniſtry of Cheſhire, when they met to ſubſcribe their atteſtation to the Miniſters of London, Jun. 1648. (the penning whereof by their unanimous vote they put upon me) that no Miniſter might make or take up a challenge for a ſet disputation upon any point of Religion, without conſultation and conſent of his Brethren, who ſhould judge
1. Whether it ſhould be disputed on or no; if ſo
2. How the disputation ſhould be ordered, that the truth, and thoſe who are advocates for it, may be clear and ſecured from circumvention and ſlander. The like (upon an eſpeciall occaſion) I moved to my fellow. Miniſters at our meeting at Killingworth in Warwickſhire, and in both (viz. that in Cheſhire, and this in Warwickſhire,) as many as met together (who were a conſiderable number) ſignified their conſent, by ſubſcription to what I propoſed, in theſe words:
Iuly the 7th. 1656.
At the meeting of the Miniſters at Kenelmworth reſolved and agreed upon; That no Miniſter of this Aſſociation, either offer or undertake any publick Diſputation concerning any point of Religion, but in ſuch a manner, and order, and time, as ſhall be concluded of by the conſent of the brethren of the Society.
Iohn Bryan.
Obadiah Grew.
Iohn Ley.
Daniel Eyres.
Iohn Trat.
Thomas Hall.
Thomas Dugard.
Anthony Woodhall.
Alexander Bean.
Henry Buller.
Luke Milbourn.
Samuel Hawes.
Thomas Evance.
Beſides theſe religious conſiderations which moſt concern Miniſters to look unto, there is another, which upon a Civil account belongs moſt to the Magiſtrate, viz. the preſervation of the publick peace, much endangered by a numerous concourſe of people of adverſe principles, for debate of their differences. From which will hardly be ſeparated that peſt of concord, asrConcordiae peſtis vincendi pertinax libido. Eraſm. Epiſt. praefix. operibus. Hilar. p. 5. (Eraſmus calleth it,) a pertinacious deſire to conquer the adverſary; which may be like to break out into opprobrious words, and from ſuch words it may be to blowes and bloud-ſhed. Therefore S. Paul clearing of himſelf from Tertullus his accuſation, of moving ſedition among all the Iewes throughout the world, Act …q 5. he ſaith v. 12. that his accuſers neither found him in the Temple diſputing with any man, nor raiſing up the people, neither in the Synagogues, nor in the City; implying that diſputation did diſpoſe men to popular diſturbance; and with reference to the affinity betwixt the one and the other, the Catholick meeting in a leſſe number then the Donatiſts, (for a publick diſpute) made this advantage of the difference, viz. That if any tumults ſhould ariſe the diſorder could not in reaſon be imputed unto them who were fewer, but to their adverſaries that in number exceeded them. Pauciores catholici q…m Donatiſl…e …e ſi tumultus eſſet minori numero non impataretur Auguſt. Operts breviculi collat. Praefat. Tom. 7. part. 1. p. 686.Though ſometimes there is more danger of commotion from a few turbulent Spirits on the one ſide, then of a multitude of ſober minded Citizens on the other; whereof you had evidence enough at your City Coventry, when thoſe who came as abetters to Mr. Knowles and Mr. K…ff…ns contestation, againſt you and your brother Dr. Grewe, behaved themſelves ſo rudely, that the Committee reſiding there thought it neceſſary to forbid your diſpu…tes, and the City-Magiſtrates denyed the uſe of their Town-Hall for that purpoſe, though they had promiſed it before their coming, when there appeared no ſuch perill of breach of the publick Peace, as after their coming they ſoon perceived. How it came to paſſe, that (notwithſtanding the declared unwillingneſſe of the Committee and Magiſtrates of the City againſt the publick diſpute,) you fitted them with a publick place and polemical entertainment, who came ſo far out of their way, as from London to Coventry to quarrell with you, I ſhall ſhew in a more convenient place: And (to go on with obſervations of like ſort) I very well remember that in London (when Sir, Iohn Gayor was Lord Major) there was a diſputation betwixt Mr. William Ienkins then Preacher at Christ-Church, and Mr. Benjamin Cox, in Mr. I. his houſe, at which I was preſent, being invited by Mr. I. And at the end of that diſpute, there was another reſolved on betwixt Mr. Iames Cranford, and the ſame Mr. Cox, and that within a few dayes after; but before the time concluded on I had occaſion to bring his Lordſhip a lift of ſuch Miniſters as I thought fit to be Preachers at Pauls, as he had requeſted me to do; and then I telling him (the diſcourſe we had inducing me to it) the diſpute between Mr. I. and Mr. Cox, and that I was preſent at it, and that another was intended and concluded betwixt Mr. Cranford and Mr. Cox within a while after; he replyed, that he would have ſuffered neither of them, if he had had timely advertiſement of them both; but ſince the one was paſt and could not be recalled, he would ſend his warrant to prevent the other; and that it might be certainly and ſpeedily done, he put me upon it to draw up a form of prohibition of it: which I did, whereupon the parties ſerved with it deſiſted from their purpoſe. There was another diſputation more publickly beſpoken, and as I have heard agreed upon to be betwixt your two, Cov. Antagoniſts, and Mr. Calumy, at his Church in Alderman-bury; but ſuch animoſities of Spirit, and ſymptomes of tumult began to ſtir, and to gather near the time and place of the publick meeting, that there was great cauſe to fear, that how ever it fared with the truth, the common peace would be much endangered, if that concourſe were not hindred; and therefore by the civil Magiſtrates it was forbidden, and as in duty it was requiſite, accordingly forborn.
And I doubt not of Religious Civil Magiſtrates, though their proper office ſerve principally for the preſervation of peace among the common people, but ſome of them have the leſſe liking of diſputes in Religion, becauſe they fear it muſt be prophaned by polemicall conteſtations of ſuch as arelHoc morbi fere innatum eſt hominum ingeiis, ut cedere neſciant. Eraſm. ubi ſuprà too stout to ſtoop to the truth, and ſomEſt hoc pertinaciae pleriſque mortalium ingeniis inſitumut, quod ſemel quocun que caſu pronunciaverint, nunquam …u… deſinant, etiamſi compererint perperä pronunciaſſe. Ibid. p. ult. pertinacious in their opinions, as not to recede from what they have pronounced, nay though they ſee their errour, and that they have pronounced amiſſe: and this Eraſmus obſerveth as a diſeaſe and infirmity naturally incident to moſt men. And as the Magiſtrates are publick perſons, if withall they be religious, they cannot think it fit the common intereſt in ſacred and Catholick truths of doctrine and practiſe, ſhould be permitted to private perſons to toſſe to and fro, (as a Ball betwixt two Rackets) in wrangling altercation. This moved the Emperour Marcianus, in ratification of the Conncel of Chalcedon, nNe cui amplius liceret publicè de fide differere. Baron. Annal an. 452. num. 1. Tom. p. 187.to decree that none ſhould publickly diſpute of matters of Faith; oClericus fuerit qui, &c. conſortio clericorum mov…a…ur; fi militia praectnctus ſit, cingulo spoliabitur; caeteri ſanct iſſima urbe pellantur. Baron. Ibid. num. 4. col. 688.and he laid a penalty on ſuch as preſumed to act contrary to what he had decreed: as for Clerks, to be put out of the number of the Clergy; for a Souldier, that his helt and ſword ſhall be taken from him; for Citizens, to be expelled the City; and for others, their contumacy was to be pCompetentibus ſuppliciis ſubjugandi. Ibid.ſubdurd with other competent puriſhments.
There are two great oppoſites to each other, too oppoſite to all diſputations of Religion, the Turke and the Pope; who though their Pride make them ambitious of the higheſt place, the head, their wickedneſſe makes them worthy of the loweſt, the taile, Deut. 28.44.
1. Firſt for the Turk, Mahomet, (that famous impoſtor and falſe Prophet, the founder of that impious and impure Sect of the Mahametans) not onelyonly forbids all diſputes about the Religion of his Bible, (rather Babell) the Alcoran, but inſtructs his deluded diſciples how to anſwer them who are diſpoſed to diſpute:qTecum diſputare volentibus dic, Deum ſo… omnes tuo; actus agnoſcere, qui die poſtremo lites omnes & contrarietates diſcutiet. Alcaroni. c. 32. Say unto them, (ſaith he) God alone knowes all thy acts, and at the laſt day will diſcuſſe all controverſies and contrarieties. Again,rHomines incredulos taliter alloquere; ego quidem legem veſtram minime ſequor, nec vos meam; igitur mihi mea maneat, vobiſ que veſtra. Ibid. c. 109. to incredulous men ſay thus, I follow not your Law nor you mine; therefore let me alone with that which is mine, and I will let you alone with yours.
2. For theſNobis nullum fas eſt inire certamen cum hominibus communionis alienae; divina ſcriptura praedicante homine haereticum poſt primam & ſecundam correptionem de vita. Tom. 3. Concil. p. 625. Col. 2. edit. Bin. 1636. Pope Gelaſius decreed againſt diſputation with thoſe who are of another Communion; for which he pretends the authority of the Apoſtle Paul, A man that is an Heretick after the firſt and ſecond admonition reject. Titus 3. v. 10.tQuaeritur anliceat clericis de fide Catholica diſputare publicè. Neg. Azor. Inſtir. Moral. l 8. c. 26. 1 part. p. 569. Azorius the Jeſuit in his morall inſtitutions putteth this queſtion, whether it be lawfull for Clerks to dispute publickly of the Catholick Faith? And he anſwereth negatively, and quotes for it A decree of the Trinity and Catholick Faith: and for lay perſons the Popes prohibition is expreſſe and peremptory,uInhibemus ne cuiquam Laitae perſonae liceat de fide Catholica dispatare. Sext. decretal. l. 5. Tit. 2. de Haereticis. we inhibit (as unlawfull for) any lay-man publickly to diſpute of the Catholick Faith. And if there bewAzorius Ibid. p. 571. Col. 1. any diſputes of matters of Faith, betwixt Catholicks and Hereticks publiſhed in any Mother-Tongue, they are forbidden in their Index of prohibited books.
Qu. But did not Bellarmine read his controverſies or diſputations of the difference between the Popiſh and Proteſtant Religion, at Rome? and (amongſt other queſtions) did he not diſcuſſe the capitall queſtions, of the Popes ſupremacy and in-infallibility, as well as others of inferiour titles?
Anſ. He did ſo, and becauſe he ſtood up as a Champion, for the Antichriſtian Creed and Church, he was allowed to do ſo, eſpecially there where his hearers were wilfully fortified againſt the true faith: But ſo little is any diſputation liked by thoſe who are moſt Popiſh, that as a very wife and obſervant Traveller informeth us, (in his judicious Book called Europae speculum, or a view or ſurvey of the ſtate of Religion in the Weſtern parts of the world;) that hexSir Edw. Sand. Europae. ſpeculum, p. 121, 122. ſought for the controverſies of Card. Bellarm. in verity in all places; but neither that, nor Gregorie de Valentia, nor other Popiſh School-men, nor any of that quality could be ever in any ſhop of Italy ſet eye upon: which made me (ſaith he) entertain this ſuſpicious conjecture, that no part of the Proteſtants poſitions and allegations ſhould be known; they were ſo exact as to make diſcurrent (in ſome ſort) even thoſe very books which were constrained to cite them, that they might refute them; in ſuch wiſe as not to ſuffer them to be commonly ſaleable, but onelyonly to ſuch, and in ſuch places as the Superiours ſhould think meet. And it is not an improbable opinion of ſome, that Bellarmines diſpatations are the leſſe pleaſing to the Pope and his deareſt favourites, becauſe he citeth our Authors too fully, and ſetteth on their arguments further then his anſwers reach to take them off. And for the point in hand, diſputation is the moſt cryed down in Italy, the Popes Country, above other places: for as the ſame prudent Author obſervethyIbid. p. 117. as in the foundation of the reformation (which is the Scripture) ſo much more in the edifice it ſelf, the Doctrines and Opinions of the reformed Churches, they bear away all ſound and Eccho of them, being not lawfull there to alledge them, no not to glance at them, not to argue nor diſpute of them, no not to refute them: he goeth on; In ordinary communication (ſaith he) to talk of matters of religion is odious and ſuſpicious; but to enter into any reaſoning, (though but for argument ſake, without any other ſcandall) is prohibited and dangerous: yea it was once my fortune (ſaith he) to be half threatned for none other fault then for debating with a Jew, and upholding the truth of Chriſtianity against him; ſo unlawfull there are all diſputes of Religion whatſoever, &c. Ibid.I believe him there in the rather, becauſe zAzor. Inſtitut. part. 1. l. 8. c. 26. p 571. col. 2.Azorius confeſſeth, they are ſo jealous of all diſputations, as that they will not allow of a confutation of the Alcora n in any Mother-Tongue: Not that they care either for the Jewiſh or Turkiſh Religion, but that if they muſt be ſo much ſecured from common contradiction, much more muſt that which they call Roman Catholick, eſpecially for thoſe points which concern his Holineſſe indiſputable and all diſputative priviledges, to whom Papall Paraſites appropriate that of the Apoſtle, 1 Cor. 2.14. The spirituall man judgeth all things, yet he himſelf is judged of no man: But, the cauſe common to them both (why the Turkiſh and Popiſh Religion are ſo tender over their Tet…ets, that they may not be touched by diſpute) is, for that they are like the apples of Sodom, which how fair ſoever they ſeem to the eye, if they be handled they fall unto aſhes and ſmoke,aJoſeph. of the wars of the Jewes, l. 5. c. 5. fine capitis. as Joſephus recordeth, becauſe they have no ſolidity of truth that can endure the triall.
Having ſhewed in the precedent diſcourſe how averſe many have been from diſputations in Religion; why and how far and how adverſe the Mahometans and Papiſts are unto them; I will adde but one obſervation more under this Title of Diſputations in Religion concerning the Pope and his party of this generation, who (beſides the reaſon wherein by their diſlike of them, they agree with the Turks (which is a part of their Turco papiſmus, as Dr. Sutlive hath entitled a book againſt them) are vehemently bent againſt them (where their power is moſt predominant) out of pride and diſdain of all Religions but their own, eſpecially of the Proteſtants, becauſe they have done them the moſt diſhonour and damage; and becauſe by the domineering decrees of the Councell of Trent, and by the Tyrannicall authority of the Inquiſition, they are better able to oppoſe them, then by Diſputations and Arguments from Scripture or reaſons; and for this reaſon among others is the Popiſh “Pope Paul the fourth ſaid it was the principall ſecret and Myſtery of the papacy. Hiſt. of the Council of Trent lib. 4. p. 405. and the true Ram to bear down hereſie and defend the Apoſtolick Sea. Ibid. p. 409.rather then“The very name of the Inquiſition is terrible all Chriſtendome over, and the King of Spain with his Grandees tremble at it. Howels famil. Letters. Vol. 1. Let. 44 p. 236. Spaniſh inquiſition, though ſet up principally againſt the Iewes and Moores, carryed on ſo cunningly and cruelly againſt the Proteſtants, that the Biſhops and other of the Popiſh Clergy might not be put to too much paines in arguing with them; as it was ſaid by ſome who wrote againſt the Engliſh Biſhops, for preſſing ceremoniall conformity with too much rigour;bSo in the beginning of a Dialogue betwixt Diotrephes a Biſhop, Tertullus a Papiſt, Pandocheus an In-keeper, and Paul a Preacher of the word of God. that the clink and the Gate-houſe (two common Gaoles) were the ſtrongeſt Arguments they had to maintain their cauſe; but they were as houſes with paper walls in compariſon of the Priſons of the Pope-holy inquiſition, as, thecSee the Spaniſh Hiſtory l. 28. p. 1031, and à p. 1119. à. 1123. and 1134, 1135. Spaniſh Hiſtory, beſides other writers, have reported it.