Reply to the Frivolous and Impertinent Answer of RB, Reply
A ſhort reply, to the frivolous exceptions of E. B.
HEe being deſirous to vent and put off his notions, though verie raw and undigeſted as may eaſily be ſeene, and meeting with my diſcourſe, he thought good to have a …ing at it though to little purpoſe God knoweth, as is the reſt of the matter of his booke, to which he doth adde this ſhort and haſtie Anſwer. I ſhall rather chuſe that he ſhall pleaſe himſelfe with the great ſtrength of his matter, and the utter inabillitie that is in any to Anſwer: rather then trouble my ſelfe in endeavouring to ſhew the deceitfulneſſe of his wares, and ſo hurt his market: he having ſo great a deſire to put them off: I ſuppoſe any indifferent Chapman can ſee into it. I ſhall onelyonly make a ſhort reply to what is excepted againſt in my diſcourſe. Firſt he excepteth againſt this that Chriſt ſhould be ſaid to be a widower if his viſible Church died, and ceaſed to be any more in the world; to this I have anſwered before and referre the reader to it: Chriſt the husband of his Church muſt be a Widower if his Church died; To this hee ſayth wee differ not in the matter or ſubſtance: No that is ſtrange, what is his reaſon? He ſaith the Church is either in heaven or earth, ſo I ſay is a mans wife when ſhe is dead, either in the world or out of it: But hee ſaith Chriſt hath a Church though no viſible one, but our queſtion is of the viſible, that is Chriſts wife Ephe. 5. If that die or died, Chriſt muſt be a widower ſure. But he ſaith his Church became Inviſible; then it changed the nature of it. But he thinketh it is cleare, that ſome time it was ſo inviſible Reve. 6. 13. 14. but ſure he wanteth a cleare judgement as in other things ſo in this Scripture, heaven departed away as a ſcrole when it is rolled together, A ſcrole is a viſible ſubſtance when it is rolled up, though not ſo viſible as when unrolled, heaven the eſtate of Chriſt Church departed away no otherwiſe then as a ſcrole, which is the ſame and continueth it being rolled as unrolled, indeed he is viſible rolled, more viſible unrolled, R. B. his inference, namely that the Church is not alway viſible is unſound: Till the eight ſeale was powred forth Heaven or the Church was as a ſcrole unrolled, ſo as the things therein written might be ſeene: ſo was the Church while it remained now pure: But after that time it departed as a ſcrole rolled up, ſo was the caſe, and in ſome ſort is ſtill of the Church under deepe defection; The reſtoring of the Church to puritie is the unrolling of the ſcrole, begun and yet a doing: he addeth but to what purpoſe I ſuppoſe he knoweth not Reve. 11. 7. 12.
Further he ſaith the Church was hid in the wilderneſſe for a time, and times and halfe a time: But from whom is it that ſhe was thus hid? from the Serpen I but if ſhe be hid ſhe is preſerved and hath her being, and having a being ſhe is viſible: nothing can be more plaine She is hid from the rage of the ſerpent from the crueltie of the enemie, but viſible to her friends, and to the members and thoſe that in good will doe ſeeke her. If E. B. in ſome danger of the enemie, as in the time of the Biſhops ſhould have retired to ſome place of ſecreſie and there have hid himſelfe, was he therefore to his wife and other friends a man inviſible, becauſe ſo hid. Truely any man of reaſon may ſee to what purpoſe theſe Scriptures ſerve his turne, and that they are fully againſt him and his opinion which he bringeth them for, and do prove the continuedneſſe of the Church and viſibillitie of it which he oppoſeth: In the wilderneſſe the Church continued, if by wilderneſſe hee will not underſtand the ſtate of defection, he muſt then underſtand by wilderneſſe private places, for other ſence I ſuppoſe he cannot finde I he chooſe the latter as I ſuppoſe he will: If he had taken or would take paines to traverſe the world, If he could not finde the Church remaining in Europe, in Aſia, Affrica, or America he might finde her, for in the wilderneſſe ſhe is to be preſerved as before: and there finding of her he might have lighted his candle, and beene baptized and added to the Church. And he ſhould not have beene put upon ſuch a neceſſitie as to begin Baptiſme by an unbaptized perſon acting of it without any Commiſſion or warrant from Chriſt: But hee and others of his minde had rather ſpare his paines and labour of ſeeking and ſearching the wilderneſſe for her, and without Scripture or word of God, beleeve and hold ſhe is ſeaſed out of the world and gone to heaven, and muſt be ſo raiſed and reſtored in the earth againe, by this way of their own deviſing, which never came into the minde of Almightie God.
His ſecond exception is to what I propounded, that if Rev. 7. 31.Baptiſme was loſt and fallen out of the world none but a Chriſt, a Moſes, an Elias or at leaſt a prophet from heaven might reſtore, the blinde Jewes could ſee this that it was unlawfull for any other: To this hee ſayth that he granteth that an ordinance loſt and fallen out of the world none but a Chriſt a Moſes Elias or a prophet from heaven can raiſe it: Baptiſme: was thus loſt hee acknowledgeth, when did Chriſt, Moſes, Elias, or any Prophet from Heaven, come to raiſe it againe? where are they, or who be they that we may doe them reverence? Sure he can ſhew none ſuch; But this hee rhinketh may ſerve, beleevers having Chriſt the Word and Spirit, ſo he ſayth may doe it. Indeed they that have Chriſt, Moſes, Elias, or prophets from heaven may doe great things: but alas theſe being in heaven, are not at their beck. It is likely he meaneth they have their word, there was never any held any error ſo great but did aſſume to have that and the Spirit alſo: But ſuppoſing to have Chriſt the Word and Spirit: how then doth he prove ſuch may raiſe a loſt ordinance without ſpeciall Commiſſion: he quoteth foure Scriptures Matth. 18. 19. 20. 11. 11. Luke 17. 28. Rom. 10. 6. We will view the Scriptures. Matth. 18. 19. 20. If two of you agree, and againe, where two or three are gathered in my Name &c. To which I ſay that it is not meant two or three unbaptized perſons ſuch have no warrant Commiſſion or promiſe in this kinde; Cornelius and his family and friends were two three ſuch: yet they muſt ſend for Peter; Two or three is Acts 10. 2. 5. Ast. 2. 41.or uſually and I judge truely, taken for the Church; two or three unbaptiſed perſons, I deny to be a Church; let E. B. that would have an example of baptiſing Infants, ſhew an example, or any ground from Scripture of a unbaptiſed Church, There is cleare examples of Beleevers being Baptized and added to the Church, where there was a Miniſtrie of Chriſt: however where there were Baptized perſons to Baptize them, but alas for beleevers ſo called to become a Church, being unbaptized is without all warrant of ſcripture I conceive I ſhall …ot neede to wade further in anſwer, for doubtleſſe this Scripture will be judged by the reader to bee impertinent to his purpoſe. The 11. Matth. 11. Luke 7. 28. both which containe one matter are the next: They ſpeake of John and that the leaſt in the Kingdome of God is greater then he: though he were great indeed. The force is ſupoſed to lie here, greater, and ſo may baptize as hee did, without Warrant or Commiſſion, though he had one. By this reaſon women may baptize, they being of the kingdome of Heaven and beleevers, but ſure unbaptized perſons cannot be the Kingdome of Heaven in this ſence: Cornelius might have baptized his family and friends, and needed not to have ſent for Peter. Certainly our Lord was greater then John, and the Lord of all beleevers, yet he did not baptize himſelfe or others, but went to John, that he might fullfill righteouſneſſe, and ſo would theſe, were they like minded to him, they would goe to them that Matth. 3. 15.were baptized, and had Commiſſion to baptize others: Theſe Scriptures the ſtrength whereof lieth in a Compara…ive way, without all queſtion E. B. doth not yet underſtand the ſcope of them, and that it maketh nothing for him, every ordinary judgement will ſee, and I will ſay no more.
The 10. Rom. 6. 7. 8. is the laſt place by which he will prove that unbaptized perſons beleeving may baptize others, and ſo raiſe the ordinance loſt and fallen out of the world, this place of the Apoſtle is that of Moſes Deu. 30. 11. 12. 13. 14. 1 S…m. 13. 9. 11. 2. …hron. 26. 18. 1 Cor. 1… 33. 40It would better have fitted Saul to have excuſed his diſobedience he being in a great ſtrait, and fooliſhly adventuring to ſacrifice, Ʋzziah the king might better and to more purpoſe have alleadged the ſame for burning incenſe, for which the prieſt withſtood him hee being for it ſmitten with leproſie. Can E. B. account God to be the God of order, or thinke well of him for making a breach in Ʋzza for neglect of order? and hold th… every beleever may without any more adoe, act any ordinance of never ſo high a nature or peculiar concernment? and ſaying, ſay not who ſhall a ſcend into Heaven, and the word is neare them, will ſerve their turne and bear them out, Alas it would not ſerve Saul nor Vzza nor Vzziah though a King, neither will it in the leaſt ſerve an unbaptized perſon; the which I leave alſo to the judgement of the Reader. After this he ſpeaketh that the Scripture is ſilent of John his baptizing of himſelfe; I ſay though it be, yet it is not ſilent concerning his Commiſſion, they ſhew theſe it were to purpoſe. Then abruptly he falleth could on the Apoſtacie of Iſrael and AntiChriſt & ſaith the Apoſtacy of Anti-Chriſt, greater then i… that of Iſrael, indeed ſo it had need, with reference to their courſe, and ſo he ſaith though they did not againe circumciſe themſelves, yet now they may againe be baptized, though the Scripture be as ſilent concerning it as it is of Johns Baptizing himſelfe &c. It is well he will ingenuouſly acknowledge the ſilence of the Scripture in the matter: but what is their courſe now not having the Scripture for the rule of it, a voluntarie courſe of their Eſa…. 8.owne deviſing to be ſhunned of all Gods people, who are to cleave to the Law and Teſtimonie: But we will a litle minde his reaſon, why the Apoſtacie of Antichriſt is greater then that of Iſrael; it is this, they were called Sodomites and Egyptians, theſe were the worſt of Pagans and ſo of the Gentiles Reve. 11. 2. 8. It is but Spiritually they are ſo called: And Iſrael in their Apoſtacie from God is called by the like termes Eſay 1. 10. 57. Eſay. 3. Neither doth it appeare that Sodomites and Egyptians were the worſt of Heathen, unleſſe any pleaſe to beleeve his bare ſaying ſo▪ truely this is a poor way of confuting a matter.
B… … further ſaith Iſraels Apoſtacie did not raze the foundation of the conſtitution of their Church: It is well he ſo holdeth, others of his way have not held ſo; Iſrael forſooke God and his pure worſhip and followed Hoſ. 4 17. 8. 4.Idols, They worſhipped the Calves at Dan and Bethel, if their ground were true, that corruption it maketh a nullitie, it is marvellous they ſhould remaine a true Church.
But it is plaine he ſaith that Antichriſt hath changed all ordinances, both in Church and Miniſtery, Worſhip and Government: Eſai 24. 5. and ſo hath deſtroyed baptiſme. To which I anſwer, it is not ſo plaine as it is plaine: E. B. is fooliſhly confident of his owne opinions and conceits, though he have no ground for them: doth the 24. Eſay 5. prove it ſo plainly? E. B. hath a veine to make any thing prove his matter; he thinketh he hath to deale with children, with whom he is ſo out of charitie: hee goeth on adding one thing to another without any relation, and ſo ſaith the matter of the Church under the Goſpell muſt know the Lord and bee all taught of him. If all of E. B. his Church doe ſo know God, and be ſo taught of him it is well; if it be ſo, they have the more wrong done them: further he bringeth all the difference betwixt him & the Church of Rome, and England to a very narrow point, and that is they do not baptiſe believers only confeſſing faith and ſins &c. If they did, they would not leave her; they doe baptize perſons of yeeres in Nova Spania and other parts of the Indies; yea in Rome and ſo alſo in England they baptize Iewes, Turks and Moors, who confeſſe their faith and their ſins: they baptize infants alſo that is a leſſe errour then the worſhipping of the Calves which when E. B. hath well conſidered, happily he may leave off his ſeparation and be reconciled againe.
Further he ſeemeth to ſay ſomething to what I minded in my diſcourſe that ſome are ſo filled with prejudice, that they have no patience to think of the church eſtate: remaining under Antichriſt exaltation: to this he ſaith they ſhall ever bee ready to ſpeake or write; I ſay like enough ſo, but not to heare it ſeemeth. It is a vertue to be ſwift to heare and ſlow to ſpeake: I did in my diſcourſe Iames 1. 19.deſire any to ſet forth the hurt that commeth of holding the Ordinance of the Church and Baptiſme, to have bin in captivitie in Babylon, and there preſerved by the power of God, for a time &c. And now by the ſame power brought forth to freedome and puritie, God returning to build his Tabernacle broke downe and ruined: But Act. 15.not deſtroyed, as ſometime of old the Church and veſſels of the Lord were in Babylon and thence returned: to the veſſels he anſwereth, but to the Church it ſeemeth hee knew not what to anſwer, and ſo paſſeth it by with ſilence, notwithſtanding he hold as before, as in the end of his third replie, the conſtitution of that Church was founded in the land of Canaan, and being removed thence by his ground muſt become voide. To the veſſels he moſt ignorantly replieth and ſaith, the veſſels of the Lords houſe had no relation to the ſprinkling of infants; his reaſon is, they were the Lords ordinances, and is not the Church and Baptiſme ſo alſo? he ſaith they needed no new caſting ſo long as they remained the ſame, ſo the Church and Baptiſme neede no new raiſing, they remainning the ſame: But he conclude…h the ſprinkling of infants was never Gods Ordinance; indeed if hee were a Chriſt, a Moſes, Eltas or prophet from heaven, his bare affirmation might paſſe and be taken for good, but it is well wee neede not beleeve him unleſſe wee will: So hee ſaith the Argument is to no purpoſe: hee might well ſay ſo of his ſimple anſwer he pleaſeth himſelf withall. He propoundeth a caſe I ſhal not trouble my ſelf, to take away the content hee hath in it, being aſſured any one that hath reaſon in him will ſee it is but a fancie. Another exception is to a paſſage in my diſcourſe, wherin I ſaid it was marvellous they had not patience about raiſing Baptiſme loſt, ſeeing ſome of them expect Chriſt perſonally to appeare, in the world againe. I ſaid happily he might bee angrie at their ſuddaine attempt that they did not ſtay his comming, or at leaſt till hee had given them Commiſſion as hee did John to prepare his way before him; this he ſetteth downe corruptly, & ſayth I ſay ſome hold Chriſt is to come and raigne at Hieruſalem. He ſayth I ſay I would have had them ſtay til then for the ordinance: I ſaid only I marvelled they had not patience to ſtay: I ſhall beare his charges and take notice of his anſwer; If the want of the viſibilitie of the Church maketh Chriſt a widower▪ The Church P. B. is a Member of, was unheard of till within theſe two hundred yeeres, this he learned of the Papiſt, where was your Church before Luther? well two hundred yeeres is ſome Antiquitie, more then two or three yeeres, ſuch as is the deſcent of the totall dippers in this Kingdome: hee fooliſhly concludeth ſo Chriſt a widower till then. But he might know, that though the Reformed Churches came then out of Bondage and Corruption, to freedome and puritie, yet there might be other Churches in Aſia or in Affrica, though there remained none, but ſo corrupt in Europe, ſo as Chriſt ſhould not need to bee a widower for want of ſuch a viſible Church as P. B. is of, being but of two hundred yeeres ſtanding: But the aforſaid inference he maketh with a promiſe, and that is unleſſe I hold the Church of Rome a true Church; I hold not the Church of Rome a true Church nor never did: but this I hold, that the Church eſtate remained in or under the Romane deffection, the man of ſin ſitting in the Temple of God: ſo as Chriſt was not widower, though his Church was polluted and defiled kept under and ſuppreſſed, as it fared in like caſe with the ſpouſe of Chriſt the Church, when ſhe went a whoring from him and polluted Ezek. 23. 17. 30 14. 11. 26. Eſay. 13.her ſelfe, and had other Lords to reigne over her: At length he turnes his confutation into a quaere, and asketh how I dare ſeparate from her; how durſt he ſeparate from the Church he was left a Member of, for which hee was dealt withall by them; he may reſolve the caſe himſelfe: But for ſatisfaction to others in this matter, I ſhall give ſome account: Chriſtianitie and the eſtate of the Church I hold remained under the great defection of the man of ſin; God in time called out his people Reve. 18. 4. The Waldenſes firſt the Reformed Churches in France, Germany, Belgia, then came forth into freedome and puritie in obedience to that call, and ſerved God apart, as ſometimes the Chriſtians did leave the Church of the Jewes.
In Babylon is Gods people, yea his people in Covenant, theſe words Reve. 4. 18. being the words of the Covenant Iere. 31. So as the matter of the Church remaining, is clearely gathered from thence, none being the people of God in Covenant ſo, but onelyonly thoſe of his Church, the Church eſtate and ordinances in ſome conſideration there remaining, they comming out of her: to wit Babylon, they muſt come out of, and ſeparate from the Church ſo either remayning ſo farre as concernes Member-ſhip: So as I might anſwer we ſepara…e from her, becauſe we are ſo bidden by Almighty God, though in ſome ſence the Church be there remayning: And if E. B. or any other would pleaſe but to minde M. Iunius, and Dupleſis Lord of Mornay, as they doe M. Rogers they might learne this, at leaſt they might ſee that ſuch an opinion is neither ſingular nor new: to further his daring queſtion touching ſeparation, I ſay ſeparation is totall. For it is in part: E. B. profeſſeth totall ſeparation from Rome and England which he accounteth on: but he is nothing true to his principle, for all hee caſteth away the Baptiſme he received there; for why by like reaſon doth hee not ſeparate from the ſame Saviour and Redeemer Jeſus profeſſed by them? why doth hee not renounce the Scriptures by them maintained? eſpecially the Tranſlation of them, this being an outward thing as is Baptiſme? why holdeth he with them the doctrine of the Trinitie the two natures of Chriſt in one perſon? why obſerveth he with them the Lords day and retaineth their Marriages, and ſubmitteth to Magiſtracie and government there? ſure the man is partiall; he practiſeth but ſeparation in part, though he profeſſe totall, he commeth much ſhort of his owne principle; and it is well he doth, for ſurely he ought but to ſeparate in part from the evill of a perſon or thing, and ſo from the evils there: for ſo it is ſaid, that ye partake not of her ſi…s, but of the vertues or good there; or in any what ever we may and ought, and it is as great an evill to ſeparate from good that being of God, as it is not to ſeparate from evill and ſin.
But he hath another daring quaere, how dare they ſet up a ſtate before Chriſt come? They (the reformed Churches he meaneth) that are, he ſaith, but of two hundred yeeres ſtanding. To which I ſay it is likely they expect no ſuch perſonall comming of Chriſt.
And further I ſay if he pleaſe to looke into the harmony of their Confeſſions they will informe him, and tell him the ground of their practice, not onelyonly in forſaking Babylon and comming out of the Church in deepe defection: But alſo of their Congregating together and worſhipping of God purely according to his word; And this not by way of new beginning either in regard of matter or form, but by way o… reforming themſelves, being Chriſtians, or baptized beleevers and ſo matter; and alſo there Congregated in regard of forme, though in deepe defection, and in a verie corrupt condition: ſo as in regard of matter or forme, there was no need of our Lord Chriſt Moſes, or Elias, or a prophet from heaven perſonally to appeare about the matter, for at the moſt they being baptized Chriſtians: It is but a multiplying of congregations, which is ſure lawfull and ever was, and E. B. will not be againſt it. The whole anſwer to this daring quaere is but according to the injunction of the Apoſtle after the defection. Theſ. 22. 15. Stand faſt and keep the inſtructions yea have beene taught by word or Epiſtle: the reſt o… his exceptions I have replied unto in anſwere to R. B and ſo ſhall not trouble my ſelfe nor the Reader about them, but ſhall referre the whole matter to the cenſure of the Godly-wiſe.
FINIS.