Reply to the Frivolous and Impertinent Answer of RB, Answer

Reply to the Frivolous and Impertinent Answer of RB · Answer

p. 1A SHORT ANSWERE, TO A Paſſage in R. B. his Epiſtle to the READER.

IN his Epiſtle he telleth the Reader, that there needeth nothing to be ſaid to overthrow the matter of the diſcourſe, then what is contayned in it, and this he ſaith is in a matter wherin the whole building conſiſteth, but what now if R. B. miſſe in this, and be found to be deceived, as he was in his former Baptiſmes, then the whole building may, nay muſt be granted to ſtand. It is in the perp…tuity of the Church-Eſtate under the New Teſtament, and ſo of Baptiſme, by which I difference the matter thereof; The further ſaith, I make Baptiſme to depend on the Church; but what then? then he inſerreth that, unleſſe I be able to ſhew the continuedneſſe of the Church of Chriſt till theſe dayes, I cannot be aſſured that the Baptiſme there is the Ordinance of God: But what if I can ſhew this, where is R. B. then? but he ſaith pag. 2, 3. I confeſſe p. 2I know none, nor doe I beleeve that any can ſhew any ſuch continuance,

But is worth the obſerving the evill dealing of the man, his willingneſſe to deceive, hee knoweth and the Reader may obſerve, I produced Scriptures to prove the perpetutie of the Church in the World, ſuch as he nor any other are able to avoyde, or ſhew another ſence of them than that for which they were produced, I made an Inference from that in the 13. Heb. whereat he and others were much offended; Then I diſtinguiſhed thus, that this Eſtate of Chriſts-Church continued under Antichriſts exaltation, or elſe it continued ſomewhere elſe, as a part from under that deffection, for ſomewhere it muſt continue, that it continued any where elſe as in a pure way, I ſayd I did beleeve none could make it appeare, and therefore it muſt need continue under Antichriſts exaltation; and that it did not continue other where than under the deffection of Antichriſt, I alleadged thoſe Scriptures of the Univerſalitie of the defection, and the Waldenſes being the firſt fruites to God, which could not be if the Church had continued any where pure, which it did not, but in defection it continued without being made null: what ever R. B. thinketh to the contrary, now what could be more plaine than this as in my diſcourſe may be ſeen: With what face then doth R. B. feed his Reader with ſuch a fable, and ſo abuſe his oppoſite, and triumph in his owne folly, and cry victorie; truly he in this dealeth with his oppoſite as the Divell dealt with our Lord, keeps back a mayne part, and ſo ſhewing a mind to ſmother the truth and keep it in unrighteouſneſſe, I will appeale to any indifferent Iudgement, if it be not fully declared what is before ſaid, and that I hold the continuedneſſe of the Church-Eſtate, under the defection but not in a pure way, and if R. B. or any other thinke this a new opinion, it will but ſhew their p. 3Ignorance, for as learned and godly men are my Leaders herein, as thoſe hee catcheth at for advantage touching Baptiſme of Children, being a humane Ordinance, namely Mr. Junius Duplices Lord of Morney, the harmony of the Churches confeſſion and others.

The holy Scriptures I ſhewed did hold forth the continuation, and perpetuity of the viſible Church, a plant of Gods owne planting, not to be rooted out for ever, as it had continued from Abraham to Moſes, from Moſes to Chriſt, ſo it ſhould continue for ever, for proofe whereof I ſet forth ſundry ſcriptures, as in my diſcourſe may be ſeen.

To which R. B. in ſtead of granting or denying, entereth upon a diſcourſe to prove a matter neither in queſtion, nor yet ever by any denyed, and in the end without ſhewing any right ſenſe or meaneing of thoſe Scriptures, the better to informe his Reader, he flatly denieth the ſenſe of his oppoſite, and calleth him falſe Prophet, and on that hath ſpoken preſumptuouſly in the name of the Lord; a heavie charge: he onelyonly inſtanceth in thoſe two Scriptures that are propheticall, Eſay 9. 7. 59. 27. happily hee might feare there might be ſomething in the other, ſo he paſſed them by; But thus he proceedeth to reaſon, that if the viſible Church of Chrriſt hath not had a perpetuall, interrupted ſucceſſion in the World, ever ſince the firſt planting of it till theſe dayes; though the Propheſie bee true, yet the ſenſe of his oppoſite is falſe; here by the way I note how R. B. corrupteth his opponents concluſion with words of his owne coining, which words indeed are contradictorie, and plaine non-ſenſe in regard of the thing in hand, the matter in hand is the perpetuity or continuedneſſe of Chriſts Church in the world; he commeth with perpetuall interrupted ſucceſſion; this ſucceſſion he hath often in his anſwer, wherein hee juſt ſpeakes like a Parret; perpetuity and ſucceſſion cannot ſtand together, p. 4for where there is perpetuity of a thing there is no place for ſucceeding; ſucceeding or ſucceſſion may be in regard of an Office, one giveth place another ſucceedeth, and taketh place, but cannot be ſo with the Church, as in my diſcourſe may be ſeen: it may increaſe and decreaſe, but it alwayes abideth for ever, ſo as his ſucceſſion is an Ignoramus if not a Bull: But he commeth to anſwer, hee will Pſal. 121. 1.Ps 121:1make my owne matter confute mee, I ſaid the defection was univerſall, I ſo ſay ſtill; as ſaid the Waldenſes in regard of purity were the firſt fruits unto God: he ſaith ſo too: But it is much he will acknowledge them ſo to be (hee may wrong his cauſe ere he is aware, they were not Diſciples by totall dipping, the French Churches proceeded of them R. B. might have been baptiſed by them, they were the firſt fruites as he confeſſeth, ſo as he and his toall dippers cannot be it or them: but where did I ſpeake of, and prove the univerſality of the defection, not to prove the utter ceſſation of the Church-State. R. B. cannot be ſo blind, but to manifeſt that it continued not in a pure way as a part from the defection, but under the defection I ſaid it muſt needs there continue: and the errour and abſurditie of ſuch an opinion I deſired any to ſhew if they could, ſo as had not R. B. been a vain Caviler, he would not have left the plaine matter and drift, as he hath done, and by leaving out the diſtinction with the drift, made a part, as if it were ſome other thing; But now further as he granteth the largeneſſe of the defection, and the Waldenſes to bee the firſt fruites to God, ſo he confidently denieth the continuedneſſe of the Church-State in the World, eſpecially under the defection, but let his reaſons be weighed, firſt is becauſe it was given to him, namely the man of ſinne that ſitteth in the Temple of God) to make Warre with the Saints, and Theſ. 2. Rev 13. 7.Rev 13:7to overcome them, a weighty reaſon thus: muſt needs die or ceaſe to be, becauſe overcome, a perſon is overcome p. 5when he yieldeth ſubmitteth himſelfe, ſo a Kingdome and a Citie▪ yet they ceaſe not to be, Beſide it was about particular Saints that were overcome; what is this to the ceaſing of the whole Church? this reaſon is ſo lame, it had need of another to ſupport it, which he addeth to as little purpoſe, if to overcome then they could not cōtinue; wonderfull: ſo before: yet further he ſaith, if the Church continued he did not overcome them and kill them with the ſword, Rev. 13. 15.

Anſwer, Some of the Members might bee killed Rev. 3.Rev 3as Antipas was, that faithfull Martyr: the Church-Eſtate or all the Churches of Chriſt killed with the ſword, and ſo overcome, is reaſon without ſence, ſuch as R. B. himſelf will not believe, when he hath better conſidered of it, if ſome of the Members of R. B. Church were killed with the ſword, yet he would thinke his Church might continue, yea if all of them were ſo killed, yet he cannot but think the Church might continue ſome where elſe, but belike feareing his reaſons to be weake he hath a further reaſon to prove the Church did not ſo continue, Thoſe that worſhipped the Beaſt were ſuch whoſe names were not written in the Lambes booke of life, therefore the Church Rev. 13.Rev 13it could not continue, what the ſtrength and force of this reaſon is, is beyond my capacity till it be explained: reprobate men worſhipped the Beaſt, ſo they worſhipped the Calves of old, and Idolls of Gold and Silver, and their Gods …ſe. 13 2. Pſal 106. 36. 38. …er. 2. 28.Ps 106:36Ps 106:38were as their Cities, what is that to the ceaſing of the Church? R. B. had need goe to Schoole to learne ſtronger reaſons, it is no marvell he ſhould be ſo confident: he fulfilleth the Proverb, none ſo bold as b…ind Bayard: but he goeth on further in this his perverſeneſſe, and ſpeaketh of the Greeks, and would make his Reader beleeve I hold no Church-Eſtate remaining among them, becauſe I ſaid there is little difference in their defection, and the Romaniſt, and they will ſtand and fall together; being meaſur'd by a like meaſure.

p. 6Anſwer, they will ſo ſtand together as that the Church-Eſtate will remaine in the one and other, whatſoever R. B. is able to ſay to the contrary, after this hee taketh notice of what elſe where, he conſealeth of the Chuches continuance elſe where, might have added in a pure way: I ſaid I ſuppoſed none was able to make appeare, ſuch a continuedneſſe to have been in the World, if any could I ſaid and ſay ſtill, I ſhould be glad; and were it not a matter to be glad of it, would not R: B. be glad alſo; happily he would be ſorry, becauſe his new way would bee diſparaged, yea indeed overthrowne, and he foreced to be baptiſed a fourth time: But having thus gone on, he ſaith who can beleive his expoſition of Eſay 9. ſeeing he to witt his oppoſite, teſtifieth that none is able to make the truth thereof (of what of the Church in purity her continuance? but in defection under the Greeks & Romaniſt it may be made appear, where will R. B. be then among thoſe falſe Prophets he ſpeaketh of: but further? here he ſaith it muſt follow (right or wrong) that I have given a falſe Interpretation of Eſay 9. and alſo of all the Scriptures, to prove the perpetuity of the Church, and none ſhall bee able to cleare me. But where is that true Interpretation of R. B: that might informe his Reader? he hath not ſtudied it yet, unleſſe it be that the Church is ceaſed, let the Scripture ſay what it will, becauſe otherwiſe his opinion cannot ſtand, ſo he proceedeth that thus having confuted my ſelf, he thinketh it needleſſe to ſpend time in the confutation of it; It was time ſpent indeed vainely for him to meddle; unleſſe he had better underſtood what he tooke in hand, after he falleth a complaining of wrong done, for being blamed for not beleeving the Churches continuance in the World, then it ſeemeth they doe not beleeve the continuance, but the ceſſation they doe, they had need of better ground to beleeve againſt ſo many cleare Scriptures, p. 7then yet R. B. hath found out; but how ever I did not miſtake their judgement, in that I ſaid there was no ground for their practice, till they did beleeve ſuch a ceſſation, which they doe, and ſo their practice is grounded on a groſſe errour, and a flat denyall of the Scripture: cleare it if they can, but having ſo marvellouſly quited himſelfe, as he thinketh, he complayneth further, for being accuſed for making Chriſt a Widower;

Anſw. If the viſible Church was Chriſts wife, and it died as you beleeve and, hold and remained without being: for a long ſeaſon was not Chriſt a widdower then and all that time? if he would but be pleaſed to minde the 5th. of the Epheſ. he would confeſſe it, Chriſt ſometime had a Church but he loſt it, is he then to day as hee was yeſterday? obſerve what tautologie hee here uſeth, or non-ſenſe, perpetuity and ſucceſſion, which I would not mention, for I thinke he is no great Artiſt as well as my ſelf, ſave only he ubraided me with it in his Epiſtle, he asketh me whether … would have them to beleeve that I cannot beleeve my ſelfe.

Anſ. I can beleeve and doe, the Churches continuance in the World, under the defection of Antichriſt, if they did beleeve ſo too it would pleaſe me well, and ſure there would be no place for their unwarranted proceed:

But this of being charged with making Chriſt a Widower ſticketh neere his ſtomack, hee cannot digeſt it, therefore he hath a lame conſequence about it ere he let it paſſe: If Chriſt be a Widdower, if he have not alwaies a viſible Church in the World, then hee inferreth that there is no ſalvation out of the viſible Church, Indeed ordinarily the learned have held there is not, but extraordinarily there may: but what then? thinking belike there was litle in this, he addeth none can be ſaved which are not firſt united and made one with Chriſt, whether he meane union p. 8of Faith or Order is hard to be ſaid, ſuppoſe union of Faith what is that to the queſtion in hand? and I would aske R. B. what ſhall become of Infants, but becauſe he propoundeth it as an inconvenience, attending the holding the perpetuity of the Church, and ſo asketh me the queſtion which he might have ſpared, till he could reſolve what ſhould become of Children dying in Inf…ncy, I ſhall anſwer, that John Hus, and Ierome of Frague, and other holy Confeſſors of Ieſus Chriſt, they had union with Chriſt by Faith, which is firſt and maine, yea they had relation to the Church, though in deep defection, ſo as he publiſheth his hope in vaine, he ſaith further if they were united to Chriſt, then Chriſt may have a ſpouſe, although no viſible Church in the World; but he doth but ſay it, wee may chuſe whether we will beleeve him. It is as much non ſenſe, as if we ſhould ſay Chriſt may have a Spouſe, though hee have none, ſure R. B. grew dull and much forgot himſelfe.

The next Section containeth for the moſt part tautology, the man delighting to ſport himſelfe like a foole with his owne bable, onelyonly he had a minde to aske me a queſtion which I ſhall anſwer in convenient place.

R. B. Proceedeth further, and hath another bout concerning the perpetuity of the Church, carrying along with him his deviſed fable which he ſtill fathers on mee, without which he can ſay nothing, he tells his Reader that I ſay, ſeeing none can make it appeare elſewhere, he might have added in purity: he ſaith I ſay it is likely it continued under Antichriſt, ſo it ſeemeth he knew my drift, and did of purpoſe wreſt and pervert my words.

But he here demandeth how it can bee probable, why, becauſe a little before I ſpake of the univerſality of the deection, I did ſo to ſhew no Churches remained a part in a pure way, therefore I ſaid there that which hee alſo p. 9mentioneth here, that in that regard the Waldenſes, were the firſt fruits to God they comming firſt out of defection into purity, but the 2 Theſſ. 2. troubleth the man much, and that I alleadge it to prove the Churches continuance under the defection of Antichrist. This is a riddle to R. B. and he is as a in a maze, but hee anſwereth plainely here, that Temple here ſpoken of where the man of ſinne ſitteth, and is worſhipped cannot bee taken for the Church of God; but what is his reaſon, becauſe it is ſaid verſe the 3. the man of ſinne is not revealed, till firſt there be a departing: then v. 9, 10. he ſpeaketh of his deceiveableneſſe in the way of his comming, he asketh himſelfe a queſtion, and maketh himſelfe anſwer ſuch as it is, in whom ſaith hee not in the Church but in them that periſh; as if many of the Church might not periſh, ſure he forgetteth the Parable of the ten Virgins, that five were wiſe and five fooliſh; Mat. 25.Matt 25but doth R. B. indeed thinke that the myſtery of iniquity roſe, not in but out of the Church, that is a rare opinion and ſingular judgement, which I never heard of before, and moſt contrary to the truth, for the Churches might have continued till now in purity but for the working of that myſterie, and beſide I would faine learne how it ſhould be a myſtery if ſimply in the World, not at all in the Church, I had like to have paſſed by his reaſon, the falling away is firſt, the revealing is after, what of this? when the man of ſinne which began to worke in the Church in the Apoſtles time had got ſome ſtrength, then he ſhewed himſelfe more fully; but he ſaith it muſt needs follow, that ſeeing the perſons the matter of the Church are departed from the Faith: therefore it muſt needs follow they are not in any wiſe to bee eſteemed the Church of God he doth but ſay this alſo we need not beleeve him Pſal. 106 28. E…ch. 16Ps 106:28unles we will, but ſure this departing was not totall like their dipping, Iudah was departed from God and followed p. 10Idoles, yet with Iudah was Gods Church, ſo it may be and Eze. 16.Ezek 16is under the defection for all his ſaying, in no wiſe it cannot be, he would further inforce it from my judgement about the Beaſt, and becauſe they that wonder after the Beaſt, and follow him, are ſuch as are not written in the Lambs booke of life: It may be I am dull, ſure I underſtand not where the force of this reaſon lieth in regard of the matter in hand, what if I doe hold the Church may conſiſt of ſuch? many of whom may periſh, I thinke the Scripture will maintaine me in it.

But he hath a wonderfull concluſion, I doe not ſay it is preſumptuous, but ſure it is blaſphemous: his expoſition of 2 Theſſ. 2. He ſaith the Temple there is no more the Temple of God than Antichriſt that ſitteth there is God, nor no otherwiſe to be eſteemed, nor hath any on more reaſon to affirme the one than the other, ſee if he doe not taxe the Spirit ir ſelfe, for the Spirit with more reaſon affirmeth it, then R. B. hath reaſon ſo arrogantly to ſpeak as he doth. It were good for all ſober minded men to beware of ſuch deſperate contradictors of the word of God, weigh but the matter ſeriouſly; is there no more reaſon to affirme the one than the other, why doth the Spirit ſay he doth ſit in the Temple of God, what Temple hath God in the World but his Church? and that is called his Temple every where.

The myſtery of inquity it roſe up in the Church, how 2 Theſ. 2. ….2 Thess 2long it was before the Church was deſtroyed by it, R. B. cannot tell at the firſt, it was of the ſame nature being weake; as after when it was ſtrong, and was exalted to that height, all which weighed it will appeare, that R. B. had little reaſon to ſpeake preſumptuouſly as he hath done: he taketh what he hath ſaid for a full confutation, and that it cannot bee any ſuch continuedneſſe of the Church, and moſt impudently fathering a lie upon me he p. 11concludeth this matter: It muſt bee as R. B. pag. 2. ſaith, that under the defection of Antichriſt it could not continue, but where are any ſuch words in page 2. or in any part of my diſcourſe, no marvell he that durſt be ſo bold with the Scripture, ſhould deale ſo by me, ſure his Church if it continue till they know it, will deale with him for it, for without & not within is place for all liers, Thus I have Rev. 22. 15.Rev 22:15followed him to and fro in this particular of the Churches perpetuity, and continuedneſſe in the World, particularly under the defection of Antichriſt, I doubt not but it will appeare to be a truth for all R. B. hath ſaid, or is able further to ſay to the contrary, that he beleeveth it not I ſuppoſe it doth plainely appeare, that they in their way have no ground to goe on till this beleeved, namely the ceſſation of the Church, that their practice is grounded upon the denyall of a truth, fully held forth in the Scriptures of the Churches perpetuity, let them ſhift it if they can, and in their next let them informe the Reader, the true ſenſe and right meaning of thoſe Scriptures by mee alleadged, and I only adviſe they take heed of falling into ſome familiſticall ſtraine, I have done.

Now he proceedeth to Baptiſme and ſaith, ſuppoſe the Church hath continued, then Baptiſme by which the matter is difference't cōtinueth alſo, ſo it is probable his Baptiſme is the Baptiſme of Chriſt derived from thence, R. B. hath forgot his queſtion, he asked me before, and merrily ſaid it was a bull: but what thinketh hee, is not the derivation good and rationall? he would have it taken notice of, that the beſt ground his oppoſite hath is but probability. But it were well if he would once leave his fabling: I ſaid it was more than probable, and I thinke that is certaine if I miſtake not.

But further he ſaith, ſeeing I hold Baptiſme dependeth on the Church: he addes true; and ſo maketh a hinge for p. 12his doore to goe up on, I would faine know where he learned in the Scripture this true and falſe with reference to the Church, and Baptiſme, it will trouble him much to finde it: the Church is either the Church of God, or it is not, and ſo Baptiſme is either Chriſts Baptiſme or it is not, but of this by the way; in the next hee will happily ſhew it, then he proceedeth and taketh notice that I hold not the Church of Rome, the Church of God, but that State I hold to be the mother of fornicaetion, Sodome and Egypt: he thinketh it muſt needs follow that the Church of Rome hath not the Baptiſme of Chriſt; he is ſo frequent in the change of Termes, as I might make a booke of it, I write of the Church and Baptiſme, the Ordinances of God continuing under that Roman State in that defection; hee is alwayes up with the Church of Rome, and the Baptiſme thereof, hee cannot reach higher in his underſtanding but it muſt bee the ſame, and from that, that I hold the Church of Rome, not the Church of God, hee will make it follow, whether it will or no, that the Church of Rome hath not the Baptiſme of Chriſt: will he make it apappeare that Baptiſme doth not remaine the Ordinance of Chriſt under that State? who hath ſaid the Church of Rome? This he will make to appeare by a lame Argument, thus, if the Church of Rome hath not continued (what meaneth the man, it never was the Church of God, although God had a Church in the Citie of Rome) therefore Baptiſme by which the matter of the Church is differenced, hath not continued in the Church of Rome, ſure this is a bull, the Church I indeed hold continued in the defection, and under the Roman State, though R. B. fathered a lie upon me and ſaid, I held it could not there continue, and as t…e Church, ſo Baptiſme by which the matter of the Church is differenced, not pure matter from corrupt, but matter from that which is none at all; as for p. 13true and falſe they are words of his own coyning as before, not found in the word of God.

So as here hee taketh occaſion to anſwer a paſſage in in my diſcourſe, wherein I deſired any to ſhew …he errour or abſurdity, hu…t or damage t…a… commeth o…, holdi…g the Church and ordinances to have continued under the defection, &c. as in my diſcourſe may be ſeene. R B here ſaith, I may eaſily ſee it from wha… I have written my ſelf: well, what is it? This it is that Baptiſme differenceth the true matter from the falſe, notorious fabler and falſiner! againe in his inference, if the Bap…iſme of Rome: inſtead of in the defection: and thus he goeth over and over in his termes, be the Baptiſme of Chriſt, which differenceth the true matter from the falſe, yet more of this coyne: It ſhould be, which differenceth the matter of the Church from that which is no matter, and the matter bejng ſo laid downe. Where then is R. B. his great abſurdity, that I may ſo eaſily ſee, ſure hee may more eaſily ſee his folly and baſe dealing, without true and falſe, and ſuch words of his owne foyſting in his inference, and pretended abſurdity vaniſheth in the ayre: but what Tautologie he here uſeth of this true and falſe, it is much to ſee men love the bratts of their owne braine. The ſumme of that great abſurdity that R. B. can ſhew of holding as before is ſet forth, is only, this Baptiſme under the defection differenceth the matter thereof, the Church from that which is no matter at all, ſuch as are the Iewes, Mahometans, and other Heathen, and doth it not? and this is his great abſurditie: It were well for R. B. if no greater did follow of his holding the viſible Church of Chriſt to be ceaſed out of the World, his cloſe this Section a is ſeeming contradiction he ſuppoſeth in my tenent, wherein he ſtill abuſeth me and my Reader; he ſaith I affirme Rome is the Mother of Fornication, I doe ſo: and alſo that Rome is the p. 14true Spouſe of Chriſt; where have I ſaid ſo in all my diſcourſe, he cannot end one Section without fathering ſome falſe matter on me.

But with the leave of R. B. for more full ſatisfaction to the Read…r, I ſhall ſhew that there is a different conſideration to be had of the Church in defection, and that it may be minded diverſly either in a good ſenſe, or in an evill, though he happily cannot ſee it, ſo as in on conſiderasion according to the co…rupt defiled condition, it may be called Sodome, and Aegypt, the Mother of Fornication, and yet in ſome other ſence, and minding the Church of God, R. B. will ho…d himſelfe both a Saint and alſo a ſinner, but this in a diverſe conſideration and reſpect, Iudah was the Church of God, and yet ſhe is called Sodome and Gomorrah, and an Harlot, and Laodicea the Church of Chriſt, Eſay 11. E…e. 16. R…v. 3.Isa 11yet in an other weighing; ſuch matter as was fit to be ſpued out, the great abſurdity before lieth in R. B. his lame underſtanding. And now he commeth after his great travell to conclude this matter thus, that ſeeing true Baptiſme differenceth the true matter from the falſe, obſerve that without true and falſe he is aground and cannot ſtir, but he ſtill impudently will father this on P. B. and yet further ſaith I ſay ſo in my Epiſtle, where there is no ſyllable to any ſuch purpoſe; he proceedeth in his concluſion, the Baptiſme of the Church of Rome is not the Baptiſme o… Chriſt that differenceth the true matter from the falſe; a very worthy concluſion, a bratt of his owne braine pleaſeth him well, and ſo I leave him to hug his true and falſe; I ſhall now deſire the indifferent Reader to mind whether R. B. hath ſaid any thing to purpoſe againſt the perpetuity of the Church yea or no, or againſt the ſence of the Scriptures by me alleadged to prove the ſaid perpetnity.

And alſo neither I did not ſay right, that there is no ground for their practice, till they hold this that the p. 15Church is ceaſed and not to be found in the World, which it ſeemeth to be very playne by R. B. that they doe hold, and ſo lay for the foundation of their practice, and proceed, a foule errour; no marvell they bee no more ſtable, and ſetled, but ſtill in their changes, how forcible are right words? but what doth wrong reaſoning profit? it will never ſatisfie any tender conſcience certainly.

R. B. Proceedeth to Baptiſme, and taketh notice of Iob. 6. 25.Job 6:25what I ſaid, that if the Church be ceaſed then Baptiſme is ceaſed: here now he is ſomething more calme, he wants his true and falſe to help him out, to that he anſwereth, that although Baptiſme were ceaſed, ſo as there were no baptiſed perſon in the World: yet as long as Baptiſme is found in the word with a Commiſſion to doe it, he doth but beg the thing in queſtion never anſwering to what I objected in this caſe, here the 28th. Matth muſt be alleadged but to what purpoſe, I ſuppoſe none can tell: Baptiſme he ſaith may be obtained without any ſuch ſpeciall Commiſſion as had Iohn, if an unbaptiſed perſon ſhall doe it. R. B. will excuſe him of running before hee is ſent, though God never ſpeake one word to any ſuch ſo to doe: But he ſaith it will follow no more to be unlawfull ſo to doe: then it will follow that becauſe Abraham might Ier. 23. 21. 7. 22.Jer 23:21Jer 23:7Jer 23:22not circumciſe himſelfe, and Males before circumciſion was inſtituted, and he commanded ſo to doe, therefore the Iſraelites: ſee the weakeneſſe of the man in his Argument, he ſhould ſay therefore the Philiſtimes or other Heathen might not circumciſe themſelves after. Indeed ſo he had overthrowne himſelfe: for they might not, though Circumciſion was inſtituted and commanded: yet they muſt goe to Iſrael as I urged the going to Sion, and there lighting their candle, as the Heathen of old did to Iſrael which he paſſeth by with ſilence, here is R. B. his Argument, Circumciſion is inſtituted and commanded: p. 16therefore the Philiſt…mes, Aethiopians, and other Heathen might circumciſe themſelves and their Males, I ſuppoſe hee holdeth not ſo; if he doth hee holdeth contrary to the truth, and this is the very caſe, which R. B. pleaſeth himſelfe withall; but hee proceedeth further, and argueth upon the point of neceſſity, It was neceſſary for John to have Commiſſion, as it was neceſſary to have a patterne for the firſt building of the Temple; but here hee evadeth from the Commiſſion to the Pattern, and ſo deceiveth the Reader: I would faine know of R. B. whether they had not a ſpeciall Commiſſion to build the ſecond time.

It is ſure they were not onelyonly ſtirred up, but bid goe up Hag. 1. 7. 8.Hag 1:7Hag 1:8and build the houſe, and God would be …ercifull to them: But now R. B. tell me becauſe there was a Temple deſcribed in the word, and that was ruined and overthrown, might they build it againe before God bid them? might they build it in any place? and which is more and indeed to the life of the matter, might any but thoſe of Iſrael build it? I am ſure it was ſaid to others it was not fo… them ſo to doe, though the patterne was in the word, as in like manner it belongeth not to unbaptiſed perſons to baptiſe, Eſra. 4. 3.Ezra 4:3though the patterne be in the word, it is onelyonly for ſuch as are baptiſed.

To that objected that the Commiſſion 28th. Mat. It was onelyonly to baptiſed perſons, and intendeth none other; R. B. anſwereth it requireth all perſons as are made Diſciples, or ſhall be to be baptiſed, if hee had inferred that it is moſt likely there ſhall bee a continuance of baptiſed perſons in the World, that ſo his pleaſure might bee obſerved he had ſaid ſomething: but he ſaith Chriſts voyce muſt be obeyed, therefore he concludeth a neceſſity, to doe as they doe: run before they are ſent, baptiſed they muſt be, why have they not a little patience? baptiſed p. 17perſons there are none in the World, yet another lie muſt be fathered on P. B. to make good the matter, hee believeth none in a pure way, but under the defection there might be ſome alwayes found, R. B. might know I reaſoned from their ground and practice, and not from my owne judgement, if he were not blind or a vaine Caviller as I told him before.

But it appeareth to be true, that R. B. indeed holdeth ſo, that at ſome time lately there were no baptiſed perſons in the World: And yet Baptiſme might be raiſed againe well enough; there being none, how then? why ſaith hee in the. Time: 2. …6. The Scripture is profitable and ſerveth for inſtruction in all righteouſneſſe to perfect the man of God unto all good workes, as is there declared, if to all ſaith hee then to this of Baptiſme: R. B. upbraided me for miſapplying the Scripture, but it were well if he had firſt ſeene the beame in his owne eye, and caſt it out▪ truly this is a wonderfull thing that ſo rare a practice ſhould have no better ground: the Scripture did not furniſh the Heathen to circumciſe themſelves to erect a Church among themſelves to offer Sacrifice, yet theſe were good workes: It was a good worke to build the Temple, yet the Heathen were not furniſhed to doe it as before, God is the God of order which when it is neglected, for breach of due order he is offended, he is diſpleaſed as in the caſe of Ʋzzah: it was not for Saul to offer ſacrifice though it were a good 2. Sam. 6. 6. 1. Sam. 13. 12.2 Sam 6:61 Sam 13:12worke as it is not for an unbaptiſed perſon to baptiſe: though R. B. doe fooliſhly inforce it by vaine confidence, the Iron was dull that he needed to put to his ſtrength: But let us ſee what it is he thus confidently affirmeth, that as at the firſt Iohn Baptiſt at the command of God baptiſed others, though unbaptiſed himſelfe, even ſo according to his example written for our learning we are taught what to doe in like caſe of neceſſitie, he at length p. 18is arrived at a faire haven, neceſſitie hath no law, being in a great ſtraite indeed, brought upon themſelves by their erroneous ground, of holding no baptiſed perſons in the world, after the example of diſobedient Saul, being in great ſtraite, they are bold to baptiſe others, being unbaptiſed themſelves, our Lord did not ſo, though he were the King of the Church, as I told them before, which he tooke no notice of: but yet further he ſaith according to Rom. 15. 4. A diſciple at the command of Jeſus Chriſt, where is that command in the 28. of Matthew, this ſerveth at every turne, as true and falſe did before: it is foure times alleadged in this ſhort ſection be like to fill up, that he might ſeeme to ſay ſome thing, but it may not be counted Tautologie: but doth the 28. of Matthew command unbaptiſed diſciples to baptiſe others, ſure R. B. is miſtaken and never able to make any ſuch thing appeare.

If any ſay Johns example is extraordinary, and ſo not exemplarie: he anſwereth, theirs is an extraordinary caſe, truely ſo it is: without the rule of the Scriptures: but it may be Davids eating of the Shew-bread will ſtand them in ſtead. Indeed, in the caſe of extreame hunger to preſerve life it might: in exſtravagant courſes, ſuch as cannot be warranted by the Scriptures, ſome have done as here R. B. doth, catch at Davids example, upon ſome caſe of neceſſitie, to doe that which is not lawfull; this is their caſe he ſaith, and hereby he ſaith, they juſtifie their practiſe, but how well, let all men judge. But ſure R. B. forgot himſelfe in this, or otherwiſe he diſſenteth from others of his judgement. There were baptiſed perſons in Holland of a hundred yeeres diſcent and more, to have repaired thither were more eaſie, then for the Eunuch to Acts 8.Acts 8have gone to Jeruſalem; as eaſie it was, for them to have gone thither, as for our Lord to have gone over Jordan to Matth. 3. 13.Matt 3:13John. If R. B. queſtion their baptiſme, it is much: happily p. 19he may, becauſe they practiſe not totall dipping; then ſure it is likely, the reſtoration is but of two or three yeeres ſtanding, a very rare buſineſſe, and how rare are baptiſed perſons, he concludeth there needs no new commiſſion to raiſe it againe, we may beleeve him if we will: All the reſt of what I wrote concerning this matter R. B. paſſeth over, not finding as is likely what to anſwer, in ſpeciall, that which I declared concerning corruption, not making a nullitie, he concludeth this matter with ſaying, their practiſe is not like that of Nadab and Abihu, and ſetting children againſt perſons of yeeres, he would make as if his opponent, were againſt the baptiſing of beleevers, or perſons of yeeres, becauſe he holdeth the baptiſing of Infants: a fallacie and fond conceit, as if ſuch of old as ſhould hold the circumciſion of males at eight dayes, muſt needs be againſt the circumciſion of men of yeeres. But I muſt tell R. B. that it was unlawfull to rircumciſe thoſe of the ten tribes, when they were of yeeres, that had beene circumciſed, though in Apoſtacie in their infancie. And this is indeed the true caſe betweene R. B. and his opponent, if he could or would ſee it.

New things are very pleaſing, and many are much taken with them, as is R. B. with dipping, about which he taketh great paines, produceth many Scriptures, and would ſeeme to be ſo ſtrong, as nothing is able to withſtand him: Firſt, he ſaith, I am greatly offended, he doth but ſurmiſe, for he cannot gather it out of my diſcourſe; he ſheweth what dipping he meaneth, total dipping of the whole man over head and eares; he pretendeth this is the commandement of God, wherein the 28. of Matthew, this now muſt ſerue the turne, as true and falſe did before: but ſure it is a rare thing to gather it thence, for if dipping were there injoyned, yet ſure totall dipping cannot be: It is not ſaid goe dip all nations totally, or over head and eares, certainely, p. 20this totall dipping is ſome voluntary religion, Cor. 12. Rom. 6. Matth. 28. 10. Mar. 1. 9. Mat. 3. 16. Ioh. 3. 23. Act. 8. 38.Rom 6Matt 28:10Mark 1:9Matt 3:16John 3:23Acts 8:38having a ſhew of wiſdome; as mens owne wayes have; he quoteth many places, and ſundry examples, but ſure the man is as one that looketh through a greene-glaſſe, he ſeeth all of the ſame colour, all and every of theſe Scriptures, and examples are for totall dipping, the whole man in matter and burying of him under water; and I appeale to the judgement of the indifferent Reader, whether there be any the leaſt ſyllable to any ſuch purpoſe: no marvell he ſhould check me for not beleeving of it; and ſo confidently to father his fancie, and erroneous conceit, on the holy Scriptures, and which is more to hold all the Churches, and Chriſtians in the World to be unbaptiſed, but thoſe two or three that have been thus totally dipped: he is in a high ſtraine if he can keep it, I hold not dipping ſo neceſſary, but that a perſon baptiſed by ſprinkling, muſt needs therefore be eſteemed unbaptiſed, I indeed acknowledge I hold waſhing the maine, as before I declared in my diſcourſe, and waſhing by the way of dipping, or by the way of ſprinkling, to have in them the ſubſtance of the Ordinance being wayes of waſhing; he is pleaſed to take notice of the Reaſons, I alleadged, which is firſt that ſpringling can be but a defect in the quantity of the Element; I ſaid it is a wonderfull thing a nullity ſhould follow thereof: and is it not? to this he ſaith that he wondereth any ſhould eſteeme that an Ordinance of Chriſt, which Chriſt never ordained; but this is only to beg the matter, unproved: but the 28. Ma. 19. ſerveth ſtill; Chriſt hee ſaith never ordained ſprinkling, but dipping; therefore ſprinkling in Baptiſme is none of Chriſts Ordinance, and ſo by conſequence a nullitie; Thus eaſily in his conceit, and fully in his opinion he hath made the Baptiſme of not a few perſons in the world; If I ſhould make the like againſt his totall dipping p. 21he would not receive it, though it be his owne, Chriſt never ordained totall dipping by an unbaptiſed perſon: Ergo it is none of Chriſts, but a nullity, and by conſequence R. B. is yet unbaptiſed.

He taketh notice of a ſecond reaſon I ſet forth, and that is of placing the ſubſtance of an Ordinance in the Critickneſſe of a word, to this he anſwereth, that he placeth the ſubſtance of every Ordinance in its conformity to the word; ſo as defect and corruption make a nullity, I ſuppoſe he holdeth; but he propoundeth a caſe for diſcovery, ſprinkling is no more to bee eſteemed Gods Ordinance, then to prick the finger was to bee eſteemed Circumciſion, and he that would not take that for Circumciſion might as well bee accounted a Critick as hee that will not take ſprinkling for Baptiſme; ſure R. B. hath but little aime in his paralell, ſprinkling at the moſt is but a defect in the quantitie of the Element for all this, I will make a caſe and leave the Reader to judge of it, if any unskilfull Circumciſer ſhould have left ſome little part of the foreskin through overſight, ſhould it have been a nullity and no circumciſion? I ſuppoſe nay: ſo if any ſhall miſſe in waſhing by ſhortneſſe in the quantity of the Element, yet it may bee Chriſts Ordinance notwithſtanding, for that ſuch a defect or corruption doth not make a nullity thereof, And if any dipper in R. B. his way ſhould through ſome neglect or other accident, not dip the Crowne of the head as well as all the reſt of the body under water, I ſuppoſe R. B. had but little reaſon, if he ſhould not account it true Baptiſme in his way, notwithſtanding he proceedeth: and here I note how fairely I dealt with them, and how fouly hee hath dealt with me, I ſet downe their opinion ſo right, as that hee doth not goe about to mend it, he for the moſt part fathereth this, and the other falſity upon me, and by change of p. 22phraſes altereth often the whole matter for dipping in Baptiſing, and againſt ſpringling or waſhing they produce that Rom. 6. Collo. 2. 12. of Buriall with Chriſt, which ſprinkling they judge cannot import or hold forth: To which I in my diſcourſe anſwered, that ſprinkling or powreing water on the face doth hold our Buriall and reſurrection alſo, and indeed I judge it doth, and ſo underſtanding men will account whatſoever R. B. thinketh to the contrary, to this purpoſe I alleadged that in the 10. Corinth. of being baptiſed in the cloud and Sea: and the Scripture telleth us they went over on drie ground, to this R. B. anſwereth not, for indeed he could not, they were dipped, they were buried as ſaith the word: But here hee inferreth that by this reaſon they ſhould not bee ſprinkled; Why? becauſe, they had not water on them: But R. B. may minde, how they had the Sea on either ſide, and the Cloud over them; and were in the Water: That the Spirit accounteth Baptiſme, as it doth Sprinkling, and waſhing, as well as dipping; ſo, as Water is neceſſary for baptiſing, but the uſe of it may be divers, ſome more neere, and ſome more remote from the written manner, and full ſcope of the ordinance, and yet have the ſubſtance of the Ordinance in it. And if R. B. could make the ſea divi…e as Moſes did and ſhould carry one of his diſciples into it they might be ſo Baptized as they were, I ſhall beare his deriſion and proceed, The Baptiſme in the Cloud and Sea, urged, pleaſeth him not, he therefore ſeeketh by a queſtion to intrap. firſt he would know whether I hold it the Baptiſme of Chriſt inſtituted Mat. 28. I let R. B. know I hold it the Baptiſme of Chriſt, as the ſpiritual meat and drink were that are there alſo ſpoken of, and that it held forth and had an eye to that Baptiſme after ordained by Chriſt Matth. 28. as the ſpirituall bread and drink there did &c. And held forth the p. 23foode in the Lords ſupper the ſubſtance of all which was and is Chriſt, ſo as it is a verie pertinent inſtance and example what ever R B. thinketh, But he hath a farther demande wherein he abuſeth himſelfe, and me and the reader, with one of his accuſtomed Fables; fathering a thing which was never my iudgement nor practiſe about ſprinkling. I let R B. know I hold water neceſſary in Baptiſme, I… he can divide the ſea let him ſo Baptize, I ſhall not finde fault with him, his inference is vain about voluntary Religion, and will not help his Baptiſme garments at all.

To that by me objected that the forceing Baptiſme thus to hold forth buriall, we loſe that which it holdeth forth equally with buriall: Namely, the ſprinkling of the Conſci…nce in the blood of Chriſt. Eſay 52. 15. Heb. 10. 2…. Ezek. 36. 25. Heb. 12. 24. And the Laver of Regeneration and waſhing in the blood of Chriſt that bleſſed fountain Acts 22. 16. Heb. 10. 21. 1. Corin. 6. 11. Re. 1. 5. R. B. anſwereth, denying that ſprinkling in the blood of Chriſt is required to be held forth in Baptiſme, to which I ſay it is an eaſie thing to denie a matter never ſo plain. I ſhall refer the matter to the judgement of the Godly wiſe, whether the outward waſhing in Baptiſme doth not hold out every way of cleanſing of the ſoule in the blood of the Covenant. Baptiſme is the outward way of waſhing away ſin. It was ſaid to Saul Acts 22. 16. Be baptized and waſh away thy ſin &c.

Now ſprinkling with which R. B. is ſo much offended, is a way of inward waſhing away of ſin as before, and if R. B. pleaſe to conſider the Scriptures again in ſpeciall that in the 36. Ezek. He may if he be not overſwayed by preiudice, happily change his minde ſo as to ſee that ſprinkling both outwardly and inwardly hath in it the nature of waſhing to cleanſe, And though hee like an unwiſe man hath againe cenſured my iudgement & practiſe p. 24about this matter; he hath condemned me being innocent, for I tell him once againe I hold waſhing more fully according to the nature of the ordinance, but ſprinkling being a way of waſhing to cleanſe cannot be altogether reiected; he hath ſomething further here, which becauſe I doe not underſtand his aime and drift, being unwilling to father any thing on him but what he holdeth I paſſe it by, and the rather becauſe it is but the repeating of the ſcriptures before ſet forth, he being mightily taken with his ſence of them; pleaſing himſelfe with his owne conceipt that ſprinkling for waſhing or cleanſing is borrowed from the ſhadowes under the Law, and ſo no whit to the purpoſe, and ſo he would put by …he manner as no way ſignificant but onelyonly the matter, blood: ſure the ſpirit knew how to teach if we knew how to learne: I will ſprinkle cleane water upon them and they ſhall be cleane: againe the blood of ſprinkling, and our Conſcience ſprinkled, Is there nothing in theſe and the like but onelyonly ſo as to be borrowed from the Law, and that is all I ſuppoſe R. B. is deceived at the leaſt.

But now to that other particular of waſhing in the blood of Chriſt, which I ſaid was alſo loſt by thus inforcing dipping; He anſwereth that I am much miſtaken: Why how appeareth it? in the iudgement of the ſpirit he ſaith dipping is waſhing; ſo I ſay in like manner is ſprinkling alſo as before Ezek 36. But if dipping be waſhing, then waſhing may be dipping: in a ſpiritual ſence ſure it is; where is R. B. then: But though dipping be a way of waſhing, yet all dipping is not waſhing, nor ſo intended, a thing may be dipped in water for other ends: as for inſtance, a Smith dippeth his hot iron in water, and intendeth no waſhing, he ſaith to waſhing by the way of dipping much water is required: Indeed totall dipping muſt have ſome quantitie, but leſſe then Iordan, or Enon p. 25rivers may ſuffice to dip a perſon over head and eares: he ſaith here it doth follow, that as dipping the whole man, &c. it doth lively repreſent our buriall &c. ſo doing it in much water, muſt import a full reſemblance of our waſhing in the blood of Chriſt, Zach. 13. 1. To which I ſay, ſure our Lord did not thinke ſo of the quantitie of either water, or waſhing, as R. B. doth. Peter was indeed ſome way of his minde, it appeareth; our Lord tooke a Baſen: and he told Peter that would needs be waſhed all over as they will be by dipping, that he that is waſhed, needs not but to be waſhed in one part &c. R. B. here ſure forgot Iohn. 13.John 13himſelfe, the manner in the caſe of ſprinkling though much inforced, he would have to import nothing, onelyonly the matter; but in the caſe of dipping, he will have the maner as eſſentiall as the matter. And the quantitie of the element he will have as ſignificant as the matter, to wit, water it ſelfe: But though he be partiall, it being his owne cauſe it muſt be borne: ſo he concludeth this particular ſaying, they doe not loſe by dipping, the holding forth their waſhing in the blood of Chriſt, and againe, he muſt father a falſehood on me about ſprinkling, ere he leave it: R. B. proceedeth, and taketh further notice of what I write, and ſetting down a part only, that doth not hold forth my meaning: but the contrary hee anſwereth thereunto as pleaſeth him; I ſaid all doe, or may know, that a thing dipped is not therefore waſhed, neither is waſhing alwayes intended in the dipping of a thing in water, there is a waſhing by dipping I ſaid: R. B. anſwereth, that much leſſe is that which is ſprinkled, therefore waſhed; I argued to inforce waſhing as the maine thing, and dipping but an accident in the way of waſhing, as is ſprinkling in like maner, for as there may be dipping without waſhing, ſo there may be ſprinkling alſo; but he mindeth further what I ſaid, that a thing dipped is not p. 26therefore waſhed and made cleane. I ſaid waſhing is not alwayes intended, as before in the dipping of a thing, this I ſaid to inforce waſhing, as moſt fully ſignificant, and according to the nature of the ordinance. To this he anſwereth, that much leſſe is that which is ſprinkled, waſhed, and made cleane, I ſay, a thing may be ſprinkled as well as dipped, and not waſhed, or made cleane, yet there is a way of waſhing and cleanſing alſo by ſprinkling, Ezek. 36. 25. he ſaith, he hath proved that is waſhing, ſo I have ſhewed that ſprinkling is alſo; he ſaith, he that is dipped is waſhed, ſo is he that is ſprinkled alſo; he ſaith by conſequence he is made cleane, ſo far as the ordinance doth require, I ſay ſo alſo of ſprinkling, according to that which is the life and ſubſtance of the ordinance, the cleanſing of the ſoule in the blood of Chriſt, Ezek. 36. Surely R. B. will acknowledge that waſhing is the principall thing in baptiſme, and that there are divers wayes or manners of waſhing. And that at the moſt dipping is but a way of waſhing; I ſay no more, but that to me it is an admirable thing, that any ſhould lay ſuch waight on that way of waſhing, as that all other wayes ſhould be nullities in their account; eſpecially, that waſhing the maine and principall thing in the ordinance, ſhould not be baptiſme, or the ordinance of Chriſt, when that ſo fully holdeth forth our waſhing in the blood of Chriſt, that bleſſed fountaine, and cleanſing thereby.

I declared what I thought the ordinary way of their waſhing to be by dipping the thing in water and rubbing or the like in thoſe countries where baptiſme was firſt inſtituted: I ſaid it is yet the way, or manner of waſhing in ſome caſes, as may be ſeene in the Diers waſhing their matterialls in the river Thames: R. B. applieth this to baptiſme, as if I ſpake of that: ſure he was dull of underſtanding: he ſaith they doe practice ſo, namely dipping, p. 27and when I can prove he ſaith they dipped oft; they will dip often too; like enough ſo I ſay, for they are for all new things, right, or wrong: But R. B. tell me, did they not dip often to cleanſe in the ordinary way of their waſhing? looke but on your owne example produced, to prove dipping, waſhing; was he not to waſh ſeaven times? doe not thoſe I mentioned dip, or plunge their materialls oft in water? R. B. carrying the matter in his aſſumed ſence, as…eth me why I am offended with them for dipping but once? I told him that totall dipping was the thing I excepted againſt, for dipping by way of waſhing, not totall but of a part, I told him it was a laudable way, eſpecially in hot countries; R. B. ſaith further, that if they dipped by way of waſhing, at the firſt, then is dipping the good old way, Iere. 6. 16. a very poore concluſion. I reaſon in like caſe thus, if they eat the Supper in an upper Chamber, or at night, or leaning, the concluſion would be alike to no purpoſe; hee asketh why I reproach their practice? I anſwer, becauſe they urge that which they can never prove by one ſyllable of the ſcriptures, namely …otall dipping; and alſo lay ſuch load upon one way of waſhing by dipping, when waſhing it ſelfe is rejected; but R. B. ſaith, he ſeeth I love to wrangle: I ſay, he ſure loveth to pervert councell by words: he would not make his reader I…b 38. 2.believe I ſpake of baptiſme, elſe when I ſpake of common waſhing: That I love to wrangle, he ſaith, appeareth becauſe in ſtead of dipping often and rubbing to cleanſe, I now ſay a little water ſerveth to ſet forth our waſhing in the blood of Chriſt as well as a great deale, and the waſhing of one part as the face as the uſuall manner is, as well as the waſhing of the whole man: I do acknowledge I doe ſo hold and am willing to be judged by the godly wiſe whether it be not ſo: For I reaſon thus, if a great deale of water be neceſſary in Baptiſme, then a p. 28great deale of bread and wine in the Supper by like reaſon which indeed would carnallize the ordinance, and again if a great deale be neceſſary and the quantitie have ſuch force in it, then the greater quantitie the greater force and more full holding forth the fulneſſe of the blood of Chriſt; And ſo not ſome little brooke like old Foord, but rather the great ſea, for this argument wolud carry men ad infinitum, But truely I thinke one dro… of Chriſts blood to be of that force and efficacie, that i… …e be but ſprinkled with it, it will purge our conſcience from dead workes: I would pray R. B. and all other to obſerve the place by me alleadged: not to prove Baptiſme or the manner of it as he would ſeeme to take it, but to illuſtrate the thing in difference, touching totall dipping and waſhing but of a part, and a little water and much, For ſure I thinke R. B. his anſwer will be counted weake and unſound in that he ſaith a little water ſerveth not to ſet forth our waſhing in the blood of Chriſt as doth a great deale; as for that place produced Zacha. 13. 1. The Lord aimeth at the pureneſſe of the blood of Chriſt and unexhauſtibleneſſe of it: rather then at the muchneſſe of it, for then a ſea the greateſt of all waters, rather then a fountaine would have beene expreſt, the which I leave to the judgement of the reader: R. B. his judgement concerning a part not anſwerable to the whole, is as weake as the former, he ſaith the waſhing of a part doth not ſet forth the cleanſing of the whole; whom ſhall we beleeve, our Lord or him? our Lord told Peter in all …n 13.caſes of waſhing (I do not ſay it was Baptizing as he would make the reader beleeve) that he that is waſhed, needed not but to be waſhed in one part, and is cleane all: in the 36. Ezek. ſprinkling it cleanſeth from all ſinne and filthineſſe: ſure that place 2. Cor. 7. 1. R. B. miſapplyeth in this caſe, here he yet againe fathereth a falſe matter on p. 29me but I muſt beare it; he in the end after ſome further impertinent matter, ſaith he ſuppoſeth I know Chriſt would teach his diſciples humilitie by that act: But what then doth he teach nothing elſe? doth he not teach that he that is waſhed needs not but to be waſhed in one part according to his Maſters will? and further alſo that he that is ſo waſhed is cleane all? and if ſo in this waſhing then ſure in that myſterious waſhing much more; But in his conceit to waſh a part is contrary to his own Inſtitution Ma. 28. The man is ſicke of totall dipping, but it may be he may recover.

He ſaith further, my great objection is that totall dipping cannot be performed with modeſtie and ſhamefaſtneſſe; I ſay I judge it cannot, and I thinke ſuch as are godly wiſe will thinke ſo alſo, But he ſaith I urged againſt them in the hot countreyes their dipping often and rubbing to cleanſe; Now he ſaith I cannot determine how it may be done once; If I had not met with ſuch a perverſe oppoſite I ſhould have ſpared my ſelfe and the reader much paines: did I ſay they dipped and rubbed in Baptiſme? fie R. B. Did not Naaman dip or waſh ſeaven times? do not thoſe I inſtanced in dipping oft their materialls, by which the way of waſhing is ſet forth; If R. B. have no more to ſay to ſave his courſe from Immodeſtie he is in a poore caſe: Going in his owne way he ſaith ſurely I will conclude they put on a linnen garment: I will rather conclude ſuch are wiſe and modeſt above what is written, that ſhall hold totall dipping nad yet uſe a Covering, I ſuppoſe R. B. will hold ſo too, If he do not, ſome of his opinion doe I am ſure? It will follow they baptize the garments into the death &c. of Chriſt, They doe ſo I iudge according to their opinion, here yet ſtill he fathereth a lie on me about ſprinkling; But he ſaith not their garments but the perſons in the garments, I anſwer p. 30if totall dipping be Chriſts Command and Inſtitution; ſo far as covered, ſo far undipped: whether thoſe garments made for ſuch uſe and ſo uſed are not as holy as Popiſh Veſtments I leave the reader to judge. He ſayth it muſt follow that they that ſprinkle baptize garments alſo, I ſay it is onelyonly accidentall if they doe, they have no deviſed garment for the uſe, they have onelyonly common Cloaths; ſome conſcientious men in R. B. were true to their principles that have beene baptized in ſuch veſtments, will ſee that the defect hath made void their Baptiſme and that they are not to reſt in it but to be Baptized againe.

What ſhould be the cauſe R. B. hath laboured ſo much in this matter of dipping and taken notice of every particular, I leave every man free to judge, for my part I take it to be as I ſaid before, It is new and the man is mightily taken with it.

For I am ſure the reſt of the diſcourſe is as much againſt him, and in ſpeciall that which followeth, to which he ſaith nothing at all; There is one thing in the end of this matter of dipping which he doth not declare himſelfe about, Namely whether he learned this new way of dipping of the Romaniſt and Ignorant Welch, and whether he count their Baptiſme the Baptiſme of Chriſt, In his next I ſuppoſe he will doe it.

Now he hath done with the Negative part of my diſcourſe and ſo he commeth to the affirmative part, how he quitteth himſelfe there may be ſeene by that which followeth; before he cometh to it, he ſaith I have ſpoken my minde againſt the ordinance of Chriſt: Certainly he is greatly miſtaken, I have ſpoken for the ordinance of Chriſt which he hath peremptorily condemned, and yet doth, denying the Baptiſme of all the reformed Churches & ſepared Churches, & alſo of all other Chriſtians either Reformed, p. 31or yet in defection, only thoſe two or three excepted that have within theſe two or three yeeres, or ſome ſuch ſhort time, bin totally dipped for Baptiſme, by perſons at the beginning unbaptized themſelves, An opinion ſo rare and ſingular, ſo high and preſumptuous as I ſuppoſe all perſons godly wiſe will abhorre the verie thinking of it:

Had not R. B ſo travelled through this matter of dipping I ſhould not have challenged him for ſlipping, as now I ſhall in the reſt of the matter remaining; Certainly dipping was none of the three particulars he would reduce my diſcourſe unto, as he told his reader in the end of his Epiſtle, I muſt crave pardon if I declare my thoughts touching R. B. that he ſure thought himſelfe guiltie of what I ſo marvelled at, Namely that perſons ſhould thinke that every Corruption meeting with Gods ordinance deſtroyeth it forthwith, as if Sathan were ſtronger then God; And that alſo his thoughts tell him he is one of them that would pull up the tares with Ma. 13. 29. Eze. 43. 8.Ezek 43:8the wheate, and deſtroy Gods poſts with mans, as in my diſcourſe I obſerved it to be the veine of not a few, of which things he taketh no notice; But maketh mention of my firſt poſitive ground, and uſeth his skill of reducing it to a very narow compaſſe, and ſo ſhifteth it off without either anſwering the ſcope, the reaſons or Scriptures, by me produced, ſo as I might take that ground unanſwerable, and ſay no more. But in as much as I tender the diſcoverie of light and ſome clearing to the truth I will a little travell here further; The firſt ground in my diſcourſe was the Covenant of Almightie God to Abraham and his ſeede after him in their generations Gene. 17. I ſhewed it was an everlaſting Covenant both in the nature and in the extent made to a thouſand Generations Pſal. 105. Continuing to the time of Grace, being of p. 32force after the ſuffering of our Lord, that it did extend to the Gentiles, they being a part of the ſeed to whom this Eph. 3. 6Eph 3:6Covenant was made as in the diſcourſe may be further ſeene, none of all which R. B. denieth, for indeed he could not, but ſomething I further propounded, he catcheth and that is about the difference, I conceived to be betwixt a Covenant and Teſtament. That there's two Teſtaments of Almighty God and one Covenant, diſtinct in divers conſiderations, and in ſpeciall in the manner of Confirming, which things R. B. refuteth not, though I deſired that any one ſhould ſhew the error that attends it; he after ſome confuſed and darke ſetting forth of the ground, Anſwereth he marvelleth I ſhould urge Infants being in a Covenant not confirmed by the blood of Chriſt, to prove their Intereſt in Baptiſme, and ſo conſequently in the blood of Chriſt.

This matter he ſuppoſeth to be againſt me, To which I anſwer, the Covenant of Almighty God to Abraham Gene. 17.Gen 17and his ſeede was confirmed in Chriſt, and by him, rather in his birth and comming into the world, then by his death and leaving the world. Gala. 3. 17. But not to wade in new things I further ſay that that Covenant Gen. 17. was made with Abraham and his ſeed the Church, The Teſtament by Moſes was made with the ſame people, old and young. The new Teſtament confirmed in particular wiſe with the blood of Chriſt it was made with the ſame people alſo, the houſe of Iſrael and Iuda: ſo as the matter ſtanding ſo, that the Covenants and Teſtaments whether ſo diſtinct or not (as before) being to yong aſwel as old, what cauſe had R. B. to marvell unleſſe at his owne ſhallowneſſe? for indeede to any that hath but halfe an eye it is ſo far from excluding Childdren as it doth wholly include them, and intereſt and inright them in the Covenant and Teſtaments both old p. 33and new, and ſo in the ſeale now as of old, eſpecially the Covenant being everlaſting and by neither Teſtaments made voide. But further he ſaith, If Infants be not in the Covenant confirmed by the blood of Chriſt who ſaith they are not: Then can they he ſaith have no right to Baptiſme. which ſerveth to ſet forth our blood of waſhing in the blood of Chriſt, But I anſwer if they have intereſt both in that Covenant and Teſtament alſo, then they may have right to Baptiſme, But this is moſt certain as before is briefly declared, ſo as if R. B. can ſhew no other eror to attēd that diſtinction, it will alſo as the reſt of the matter, paſſe for good, for any thing R. B. to purpoſe can ſay againſt it: But he ſaith this excludeth Children not only from Baptiſme, but alſo from ſalvation by Chriſt; how it doth ſo I ſuppoſe he cannot tell. If he thinke thus becauſe they are ſaid to be in a Covenant, not confirmed particularly by the blood of Chriſt, Though Typically and Relatively it be ſo confirmed.

Then from ſuch a conceit it will follow certainly, that thoſe Iſraelites of old Parents and Children, were excluded from ſalvation by Chriſt, they being in a Covenant not ſo confirmed: Indeed his opinion ſeemeth to be ſicke of this diſeaſe, for how Children which he holdeth neither within the Church, nor within the Covenant, nor doe beleeve, how they ſhould have ſalvation by Chriſt, ſure he cannot tell: This R. B. according to his judgement thinketh a ſufficient anſwer, The ſcriptures which I produced to prove the extent of the Covenant of God to Abraham and his ſeed in their generations; and that the Gentiles they were a part of the ſeed to whom the Covenant was made, Ephe. 3. 6. That children are included, and not excluded, ſo being in the Covenant and of the Church, have a writ now alſo to the Seale to be buried with Chriſt by Baptiſme, all which I ſuppoſe R. B. granteth p. 34as true, and that he could not gain-ſay the ſame: And is therefore by juſt conſequence guilty … offering wrong and violence to the Covenant of Almighty God, and to Abraham the Father of the faithfull; in excluding ſuch as God hath not onelyonly included, but expreſſed in that his Heb. 8.Heb 8Covenant and alſo in both his Teſtaments, for theſe whether ſo diſtinguiſhed, or otherwiſe: were made with one and the ſame people, the houſe of Iſrael and Iuda, ſo as to Gal. 1.Gal 1exclude Children alway included muſt needes be a changing the Everlaſting Covenant and a bringing in a new Goſpel never learned of Jeſus Chriſt, and let R. B. or any other cleare themſelves of it if they can.

The ſecond poſitive ground I ſet forth it was the ſtableneſſe and perpetuitie of the Church, ſome change being in forme and Adminiſtration, but not in matter and relation, as in my diſcourſe is before fully proved; R. B. thinketh he hath diſproved the ſame and ſo here paſſeth it by: And he onelyonly mindeth what I did infer from this ground. Infants I ſaid were lawfull members of the Church from Abraham to Moſes, from Moſes to Chriſt, what ſhould let them from being a part of the Church and lawfull members yet ſtill? ſeeing the Church or Kingdome is the ſame. Mat. 21. 43. I alſo there proved that the Gentiles they are fellow-heirs and of the ſame body. Ephe. 3. 6. To all which and that that further followeth in my diſcourſe. R. B. anſwereth that though Infants were of the Church of old, yet the Lord hath manifeſtly declared they ſhall not be ſo now; It would amaze one to ſee the preſumptuouſneſſe of the man; hath God ſo manifeſtly declared their putting out of his Covenant and cutting off from the Church, where is that manifeſt declaration? the ſcripture rather declareth their continuance Ephe. 3. 6. But let us ſee where is that manifeſt declaration, It is Gala. 4. There is mention p. 35in the ſcripture but of one Allegorie and that is all the proofe R. R. hath for the excluding of Children from the Church and cutting off their entayle from the Covenant, ſure he is verie neare driven that hath no other proofe but this Allegorie to prove a matter of ſuch great conſequence as the altering of the unchangable Covenant of God and cutting of a part of the Church, And this Allegorie muſt be expounded, according to his owne ſence and fancie or elſe all is loſt with him in the cauſe, But let us ſee how he maketh the Allegorie ſpeak to his purpoſe, for the putting of Infants out of the Church: Gala. 4. It is written Abraham had two ſonnes one by a bond-maid an other by a free woman; he that was borne of the bond-woman (to wit Iſhmael) was borne after the fleſh, but he that was born of the free woman was born by promiſe, The ſum of all this is that Iſhmael not being the childe of promiſe, was put out of Abrahams family: Alas what is all this to the manifeſt declaration? O yes ſaith he it is an Allegory but ſure R. B. had ſmall judgement and leſſe reaſon to ſay an Allegorie is a manifeſt declaration: But happily he may make ſomething of it; I ſhall minde his ſence, The bond-woman he ſaith ſhadowed out the old Covenant: and her ſon Iſhmael which ſhe bare to Abraham after the fleſh by carnall generation: ſee what words R. B. here uſeth in ſetting out the generation of Iſhmael ſure there was ſome Allegorie in his thoughts about them; Rom. 4. 19.Rom 4:19For I askt him, was not Iſaac borne after a fleſhly wiſe, and by carnall generation alſo? ſure he was begotten and brought forth even as Iſhmael was, R. B. is yet beſide the white; hee further ſaith that Iſhmael ſhadowed out the carnall Iſraelites which ſhould proceede from Abraham in after generations, to what time he referreth Exo. 9. 6, Act 3. 25.Exod 9:6Acts 3:25this, it doth not appeare: As under Moſes the Jewes are ſaid to be a holy people, and Gods peculiar treaſure, ſo p. 36after Chriſt the Apoſtle telleth us expreſſely they were the Children of the promiſe, If Iſhmael being caſt out of Abrahams houſe Gods Church for mocking; did Type out the unbeleeving Jewes that rejected the Son of God, as indeed it did, if R. B. held ſo, I agree with him but ſure he meaneth ſome other matter, and therefore he goeth on further and ſayth, The free woman Sarah pointing out the new Covenant and Hieruſalem: But can R. B. put no difference betweene the new Covenant, and the Church in his judgement: that is from above and her Sonne Chriſt: Some of the Covenant or Church meaneth he; ſure Chriſt came of the Church of the Jewes as it is written, Rom. 9. 5. R. B. will not account that Hieruſalem from above, he will confound himſelfe, and loſe all if he take not heed before he get out of the Allegorie, or bring his manifeſt declaration to light; he addeth Chriſt the promiſed ſeed. Gala. 3. 16. R. B. doth not take Chriſt here perſonally, for then it muſt be excluſively, (I ſuppoſe Heb. 2. 13.Heb 2:13to all others) but he taketh it, I judge, myſtically and ſo incluſively for him and all his, the Children which God hath given him whether Jewes or Gentiles, males or females young or old.

For his ſaying in this place not to ſeeds as of many, but to ſeed, as of one that is Chriſt, Is as I conceive not of Iewes apart as on ſeed & Gentiles apart as another & ſo ſeeds, but both together in one to wit in Chriſt as it is written Rom. 4. 16. & I paralell this place with that in the 1. Cor. 12. 12. where the Apoſtle ſpeaketh after a like manner & I leave the reader to judge of it; But to go on he ſaith as Chriſt verſe. 2….the ſeed, ſo believers born from above or by promiſe; ſure he meaneth actuall beleevers, ſo as to be capable of totall dipping, certainely Iſaac was not ſo borne from above, when he came firſt into the world, and yet then he was the ſonne of promiſe, and Abrahams ſpirituall ſeed. v. 29. p. 3728. He further urgeth that we as Iſaac was, are children of the promiſe, we Gentiles, we Galathians are as Iſaac children of the promiſe: how was he by deſcending from Abraham of Sara Lineally? can any thing be brought more plaine for the manifeſt right of Children to be of the Church and within the Covenant, then that which R. B. would bring to exclude them? Iſaac the ſonne of of Abraham by Sara, before he came into the world, when he was an Infant of aday old was the childe of promiſe, aed ſo were all the ſeed of the Iewiſh Church of old, witneſſe the Apoſtle Peter Acts 3. 25. In like manner we Gentiles are as Iſaac ſo children of the promiſe and have Abraham for our father and the father of all our ſeed, the bleſſings of Abraham being common, the Gentiles through Rom. 3. 36.Rom 3:36faith (as the Iewes loſt it through unbeleife,) God to be the God of the Gentiles by ſpeciall relation and Covenant and the God of all their ſeed, as of old he was to Iſaac of Abraham & to all the generation that followed.

But R. B. ſuppoſing the matter not to be yet cleare enough travelleth further in the buſineſſe and ſaith, that to cloſe up the full intent of the ſpirit the Apoſtle ver. 29. 30. ſaith that the carnall and fleſhly ſeed Iſhmaell for perſecuting was with his mother caſt out; out of Abrahams houſe the Church: Well now R. B. draweth nigh to his manifeſt declaration, which is that by their caſting out was foreſhewen, that when Chriſt the true Iſaac ſhould be born (here he ſeemeth to underſtand that place Gala. 3. 16. perſonally & ſo excluſively.) And the barren Eſay 54 1Isa 54:1woman, the new Covenant or Goſpell, A rare underſtanding: The barren woman I had thought had been the Gentiles, and ſure ſo it is, and not the Goſpell or new Covenant; for did not the Goſpel alwayes in the ſence R. B. is now in opening his Allegorie alwayes, bare Children to God? ſure it did witneſſe the Catalogue of p. 38the faithfull Heb. 11. Further he ſaith then ſhall the bond-woman, which he calleth the old and carnall Covenant, with all the Carnall ordinances thereof: This is a very rare ſence alſo the covenant of Almighty God by Moſes he calleth Carnall; certainly it is a Carnall expreſſion and unſavorie ſo to call that gracious Covenant of Almightie God which hee of love and free Grace gave or made unto his people Deu. 33. 6. and to call thoſe ſpirituall ordinances of Gods own Inſtituting, how ever ſome way Ceremoniall, to call them Carnall after the manner of Carnall or Common Generation: But further he ſaith that all her ſonnes the Carnall and fleſhly ſeed Iſhmael and all becauſe begotten and borne of the fl…ſh, ſhall bee caſt out of the houſe: It doth not ſay caſt out Children out o… the Church for the matter ſo far travelled in, is where it was if not worſe and further off.

Caſt out Agar and Iſhmaell, Abraham, out of thy houſe, for they ſhall not inherit with Iſaac and Sara as indeed they did not, And therefore as the ſum of all R. B. ſaith that though Children of old were of the Church and within the Covenant before Chriſt yet they are not now if we pleaſe to beleeve him, Children it ſeemes are great loſers by Chriſt coming: But Alas is this the manifeſt declaration, that R. B. fathered ſo confidently on Almightie God, in rejecting Children from being of the Church. Truely I ſuppoſe he and ſuch of his way, had more need to be pitied for their ignorance joyned with preſumption, then to be envied for any rareneſſe in their opinions; he further ſaith my expoſition of this ſcripture page 22. in my diſcourſe, is alſo to be rejected and caſt out, and his rare expoſition is to bee received and taken in: For hee ſaith in my diſcourſe I make ſuch onelyonly to be the ſons of the Bond-woman as actually refuſed and rejected Grace as Joh. 7. 35. 36. He meaneth Joh. 1. 11. and ſo became p. 39bound, I ſaid there as the reader may ſee that theſe two ſons which Abraham had by two women, were two Types, And the Apoſtle ſaith it is an Allegory and they did Type out two ſtates of people, and had reference Mat. 21. 4▪ 3.Matt 21:4Matt 21:3to the time of Grace when Chriſt came unto his own and they received him not Joh. 1. 11. but to ſuch as, did hee gave power to be the ſons of God; But ſuch as did not as the greateſt number of the Iewes did not they became bond and were caſt out; the kingdome being taken from them and given to others, namely the Gentiles &c. as further Iohn 8. 36. Gala. 4. 28.John 8:36Gal 4:28may be ſeene, which rejecting and caſting out the holy Apoſtle ſo greatly bewayleth Rom. 10. 11. The Iewes for unbeliefe were caſt out as was Iſhmael and Agar for mocking, But ſuch of the Iewes and Gentiles alſo that did beleeve were made free by the ſonne that maketh men free indeed: I ſaid thus this Allegorie is fulfilled and we Gentiles are as Iſaac and as the Iſraelites children of the promiſe. This underſtanding muſt he ſaith be caſt out alſo, and he ſuppoſeth he hath a ſpeciall reaſon for it; for Ioh. 8John 8ſayth he this implyeth as if they had beene free by nature: Sure the man dreamed, they were free as Iſaac was by promiſe, being a part of the ſeed to whom the promiſe was made, the Iſraelites they were ſo free by promiſe as they could tell our Lord: but they were not ſo free, but that they muſt become bond, unleſſe they were further Rom. 11.Rom 11made free by the Sonne that maketh men free indeed: Rejecting of him they of free became bond, and are unto this day and cut off, but ſhall be looſed againe when their hearts ſhall be turned to the Lord, and they grafted into their Olive tree againe: But this R. B. ſaith is a manifeſt contradiction of the Apoſtle, let that bee made appeare; thus hee doth it; The Apoſtle hee ſayth by the bond-woman underſtandeth all them that were borne as Iſhmael by fleſhly generation, hee then as I p. 40ſaid muſt meane Iſaac alſo, for he as before is ſhewed was ſo borne by fleſhly generation, though Abraham was old and Sara ſtricken in yeeres, the intent and meaning of the Apoſtle is far otherwiſe as before is ſhewed, though he ſee it not: and ſo rudely to father his erroneous conceit upon the holy Apoſtle: So hee concludeth that all that are not as Iſaac by promiſe &c. the Galathians bein Gentiles were as Iſaac by promiſe as before, the Gentiles being grafted into the ſtock of Abraham the Church their ſeed, though lineally deſcended is owned of God as of old, and after the manner of Iſaac Children of the promiſe.

I ſuppoſe the indifferent reader will bee able to ſee how far R. B. is from making good, what he ſo boldely affirmed, And that the Children of the faithfull and ſuch as are of the Church, are yet ſtill true and lawfull Members, and ſuch as are not to bee denied to come unto Chriſt of ſuch being his Kingdome; The reſt of what I ſet forth in my diſcourſe touching this ſecond poſitive ground in as much as R. B. happily was in his deepe reducing, to ſome of the three heads before mentioned, I ſhall hold him excuſed for paſſing it by: If any reader ſtudious of this controverſie deſire to ſee further thereof, he may pleaſe to peruſe the diſcourſe. And ſo I proceed as doth R. B. ſaying my next ground is the Apoſtles exhorting Parents to bring up their Children, in the nurture of the Lord, therefore by conſequence they were of the Church and ſo baptized, I ſaid indeed the Apoſtle writing to the whole Church diſtributeth the ſame into parts, and maketh one part Children which he willeth to be obedient, and theſe were young and to be brought up in the feare of God: Now the Apoſtle writing to the Church would not meddle with them if without, I alludeing to that place 1. Cor. 5. whether the alluſion were ſo proper yea or no I leave the reader to judge, But about p. 41this R. B. taketh paines and travelleth about it, and inferreth this and that as abſurdities, to little purpoſe, following thereof, in the meane time never clearing that which followeth of the Jewes Children, being left out when they ſhall be called and grafted into their ſtocke againe, as no more capable to be of the Church, which were greatly to leſſen their comforts and to diminiſh of the grace of God to them, But minding his promiſe of reducting he paſſeth over and commeth in his further proceed, to take notice that I ſaid it was an uncomfortable doctrine, the excluding the Lineall ſeed of the faithfull from the Church eſtate and Covenant as of old, for from thence I ſaid it will follow that Parents doe beget, beare and bring forth children to the devill &c. To this he anſwereth that by nature we are all the children of wrath, Ephe. 2. …. To which I ſay, that indeed the Ephe. were the the Children of wrath before their calling and ingrafting into the Church; And further it is true of the ſeed of the faithfull, and of the faithfull themſelves, that nature conſidered according to their fallen condition and unregenerate part, they may be ſo minded, yea Iſaac the particular ſon of promiſe was ſo alſo: But by Covenant and promiſe, neither Iſaac nor yet the Iſraelites were the Children of wrath, as were the Gentiles and their ſeede, But were the people and children of God, Eze. 16. Hee ſayth further that our being of the Church, dependeth on our regeneration; which I ſay is a Familiſtcall ſtrain: But he further ſayth, if all that are not borne members of the Church ſhall be damned. I ask who ſayth ſo? Doth R. B. know no difference betwixt theſe two, that in his judgement, the one muſt needs follow the other, being out of the Church, and ſo Relatively without God in the world; then they muſt be damned and there is no other way, If it were ſo, children would be in a poor caſe, according p. 42to his judgement that excludeth them all the church: But his drift is to inforce ſome abſurditie on me. I ſhall take notice of it: he ſaith there is in my judgement no true viſible Church in the world. This fable we had enough of before: ſo he Argueth on thus, no church, no Children borne in the Church: no Salvation: He asketh mee if this doctrine of mine be not verie comfortable: he may take it to himſelfe for ſure he is the Maſter of it: And by this fayned retortion, he thinketh to heale and comfort the ſad thoughts of Parents, againſt that dolefull conſequence, that their children are not now as of old, the children of God; but are borne the children of the Devill: and ſo hee skippeth over what I inferred by way of queſtion, which it ſeemeth he had no liſt to anſwer.

R. B. taketh notice of another Argument, which hee ſayth muſt needes be anſwered: for hee taketh it, I place great confidence in it, and indeed ſo I doe, he ſetteth it downe thus, Children of Beleevers are holy, therefore they may be baptized. 1. Cor. 7. 14. To this ſcripture opened and applied, as in my diſcourſe may bee ſeene, R. B. anſwereth, that the Apoſtle doth not ſay the children of beleevers are holy: ſure he hath little modeſtie, he might as well deny the light at Noone day; doth not the Apoſay now are they holy, v. 14. But what then doth the Apoſtle ſay, that the unbeleeving wife is ſanctified to the beleeving husband? that is to his uſe, ſo as his ox or ſheep and other goods are, I ſuppoſe he ſo meaneth.

Could the Corinthians queſtion that a poor Expoſition, It is likely rather they queſtioned their lawfull continuance with them: becauſe of old the Iſraelites were to put away their ſtrange wives, and the children which were Eſra 10.Ezra 10begotten of them: which children God did not own for his, ſo they might have conſcience of doing ſo alſo; The partition wall being now broken downe, the caſe it was p. 43otherwiſe, and this R. B. in part confeſſeth as their ſcruple, but he ſeeketh to turne another way by multip…yi…g words, and in the end maketh this the ſum of all, that their children ſo begotten (are Legitimate) that is, true borne not baſtards, a wonderfull caſe and rare expoſition! if one be a beleever then the children are true borne, but if neither be, then the children are baſtards; what a number of Baſtards are there in the world, in R. B. his ſence? hee addeth as a reaſon of his expoſition, that the holineſſe of the childe is not concluded from the beleeving of the parents, but from their lawfull uſe each of other: which is utterly untrue and contrary to the ſence of the ſcripture, that tearmeth the ſeed of thoſe of the Church holy for their relation ſake, but the ſeed of other not having relation, uncleane, though borne in never ſo true wedlock. But R. B. againe ſaying the ſame without any ſhew of proofe, that it proveth no more holineſſe in the ſeed of the faithfull, then in the ſeed of the heathen borne in wedlock: But he doth but ſay it, we are not bound to beleeve him unleſſe we will; He intendeth brevitie he ſaith, and ſo referreth me further for anſwer of R. B. where the the matter is handled at large.

Theſe he ſaith are the reaſons I can ſhew for baptizing of children, which becauſe they ſatisfie not ſome, but they require as well he ſaith they may, a precept or example for warrant. He ſaith I promiſe to doe that, but firſt requires a precept or example to be ſhewed of an unbaptized perſons; baptizing either himſelfe or others, and alſo the like for rejecting children their member-ſhip in the Church, and right in the Covenant as of old. Theſe two he hath ſufficiently done: Indeede if hee might bee his owne judge he hath, but truely he muſt to work about it againe, or otherwiſe, men of judgement will count his cauſe loſt, for R. B. to proove that an unbaptized perſon p. 44may baptize himſelfe, or others, before he be baptized himſelfe; brings Davids eating of the ſhew-bread, and the Alſufficiencie of the ſcripture to inſtruct the man of God in every good work, And for cutting of the Intayle of children from the Covenant, and putting them out of the Church: that one onelyonly Allegorie mentioned in the ſcripture, Gala. 4. and this expounded aright, and not according to his erroneous ſence, is ſo far from being for him; as it is cleare againſt him. It is no marvell he ſhould ſay it is ſufficiently done; It is well he is judge in his own cauſe, for ſure others, no not thoſe of his owne way will ſay any ſuch thing for him.

Now he will take notice of the performance of my promiſe and ſo to the firſt thing by me ſet downe, he having cavelled at it before he paſſeth it by, Namely, children their being baptized into Moſes in the Cloud and Sea: a verie cleare example.

He mindeth my next as the firſt, and that is of the baptizing whole houſholds, as the Jaylers Lydiah, and the houſhold of Stephanus by Paul himſelfe. R. B. replieth to this and ſaith, he requireth an example of Baptizing Children, and not of houſholds. It is worth the noting, what unequall dealing may be found in men, and how far men are from meaſuring to others, what they require of others to be meaſured to them, to prove that an unbaptized perſon may baptize. Davids eating the ſhew-bread is a verie cleare example and full proofe with R. B. And he may take himſelfe wronged if any ſhall refuſe it. If I had ſaid to him I require an example, not of eating ſhew-bread, but of an unbaptized perſon, baptizing of himſelf, what would he have ſaid, he it is likely would have minded me of the ſubſtance of the thing, and the nature and agreement of the matter ſo parralled as he intended: I minde him ſo to minde this Inſtance and proceede.

p. 45I reaſoned thus from theſe examples, If Children with their Parents entred not the Covenant Church, eſtate now, as of old they did: The Apoſtles would have ſpoken more particularly and not ſo generally, for ſure hee minded the reproofe of our Lord to marke 10. 14.thoſe Diſciples, that hindred children from comming to him, for this reaſon amongſt other, becauſe the Church conſiſts of ſuch: It is an example for baptizing whole houſholds however, wherin uſually are yong children, It is as pertinent however, as Davids eating the ſhew-bread before: A family may be tendred, a whole family may be baptized, It lieth on the part of R. B. if I miſtake not to declare by what right, they being a part ſhould be put by: If he can ſhew no further diſcharge but that Allegorie, they will doe well enough. I told him if a houſhold were tendered to Baptiſme, and I will now put the caſe if hee was to be the Baptizer, and there ſhould be an infant, two or three in it, and Pauls example ſhould be alleadged to him; by what warrant would he put them by; or who ſhould be his pattern? It ſeemeth he would rather chuſe to follow the diſciples which Chriſt blamed for hindring Mark 10. 14.Mark 10:14Children in their comming to him, rather then the minde of our Lord or example of Paul: But what I inferred about this he paſſed by with ſilence, And thinketh to pay me home ſaying, this proveth no more the baptizing of children, then it proveth the baptizing of notorious drunkards, theeves and ſwearers, or whole houſholds have bin baptized in ſom houſholds, there are ſuch, ergo, If I ſhould tell R. B. that Iohn Baptiſt did baptize ſuch, and ſo the cauſe is by him unaware granted, he would Matth. 3. 7. Luke. 4. 7. Luke 4. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12.Matt 3:7Luke 4:7Luke 4:8Luke 4:9Luke 4:10Luke 4:11Luke 4:12tell mee they confeſſed their ſins firſt, but the ſcripture telleth him and us all, that they were a generation of vipers, whoſe good fruits were not then brought forth: pleaſing himſelfe in the paralell he ſaith to me, who p. 46ſeeth not your folly: I may I ſuppoſe with more ground Retort it on R. B. againe for making ſuch a paralell and Illuſion, for would he have drunkards &c. to be baptized whether they would or no? And if theſe being in a family confeſſe their ſinnes, though they forſake them not, ſure R. B. (or otherwiſe he differeth from thoſe of his owne way,) eſpecially if they own but totall dipping, will thinke it meet to baptize them, upon that their confeſſion and profeſſion, though they were, and doe after appeare to remaine ſuch drunkards, theeves and whores as hee ſpeaketh of: who may not ſee R. B. his ſhallowneſſe thus to pleaſe himſelfe with juſt nothing.

He commeth to the next, I ſaid the whole Church of Colloſſe was baptized as the whole church of old were circumciſed; now a part of the Church which was thus buried with Chriſt in baptiſme were children. To this hee anſwereth our queſtion is of Infants and not of children in the generall, ſome of which may be old. R. B. told me I loved to wrangle, but ſure he is ſore ſicke of the diſeaſe himſelfe. Infants and Children not come to underſtandding, I count one and the ſame & I ſuppoſe properly, and of ſuch is our queſtion, ſuch were members of the Church of old & circumciſed; ſuch are members of the church yet ſtill for ought any thing R. B. can ſay to the contrary, the Apoſtle Ephe. 6. ſpeaking in like manner, ſpeaketh of infants 10. 16.or children not growen in knowledge: ſuch as our Lord tooke in his Armes and ſaid of ſuch were his kingdome. Ephe. 6. 4. MarkEph 6:4To little purpoſe unleſſe to deceive the ſimple, doth R. B. ſet forth that old perſons, relatively may be called Children. I could alſo ſhew that an infant of a day old hath the like expreſſion. Ezek. 16. But he ſeemeth to have a lame argument, upon which he much relieth, the Apoſtle did not write to infants: I ſay he wrote to the whole and to Children Incluſively; as a part of the p. 47whole, yea to ſuch as for preſent could make little uſe of what he wrote▪ holy men of old they wrote as they were guided by the ſpirit, in like manner the Apoſtle wrote. Now of old the Law and the prophets, the precepts and promiſe therein were to children incluſively: and ſecondarily …ene. 17. 7. Exod. 19. Rom. 9. 4. Deu. 29. 1Exod 19Rom 9:4Deut 29:1in their order, the Covenant to Abraham, and that by Moſes from God it was to young and old: to whole Iſrael pertained the adoption and the giving the Law, the ſervice of God and promiſes; yea expreſly Infants that could not expreſſe themſelves verbally, enter Covenant with God, all which minded it will appeare, to be falſe which R. B. ſaith that the apoſtle did not write to Infants. But R. B. muſt have his veine, to take all things in the caſe of children excluſively, which concernes their right in the favours of God, with their Godly Parents. And incluſively he will take Infants with unbeleevers and the wicked of the world, and ſo liable to the ſame wrath, let what will be ſayd to the contrary, though he have not the leaſt ſhew for it out of Gods word: ſo as to end this, If Infants or children not come to knowledge were of the Church, and the whole Church was buried with Chriſt by Baptiſme, then were children Baptized. That they are let what before be minded. Hee concludeth with ſaying, theſe exampies will yeeld little ſatisfaction: To which I ſay and end they will yeeld more then his examples brought for the warrant of an unbaptized perſon Baptizing of others or himſelfe; or for what he alleadged for childrens diſcharge from the Church.

I ſaid there was a command for the baptiſing children: Matth. 28. 19. Goe &c Baptiſe all Nations; not one onelyonly, as the Nation of the Jewes. I illuſtrated the ſence by paralell reference to other places of Scripture, God having of old declared that Abraham ſhould bee a Father of many Nations, all which Nations according to Chriſts p. 48command muſt be baptiſed, a part whereo… are Infants, or Children not come to underſtanding: as Infants were apart of that one Nation of the Iewes: It is likely R. B. cannot but muſt needs be angry, that I take this place of Scripture to prove that, which hee is ſo much againſt when it was the onelyonly Scripture, that …he made to ſerve him at all turnes, and in every caſe about Baptiſme, as before may be obſerved.

To this he anſwereth thus, Abraham indeed was to be a Father of many Nations, ſome whereof hee ſaith were his naturall and carnall ſeed, borne after the fleſh, as Iſhmael and the Iewes, but by the way can R. B. put no difference betwixt Iſhmael & the Iſhmaelites, and the Iewes; If he cannot he ſure hath very ſmall judgement; Theſe he ſaith further for unbeliefe were rejected and caſt off, but he doth not tell us, the Order of it, neither is it altogether true, which he ſpeaketh of the cauſe, Iſhmael was caſt out firſt, and in him all the Iſmaelites, and the cauſe was not unbeliefe, but making, and this which was firſt, was the type of that which followed, the caſting of and rejecting of the Iewes for unbeliefe, at that time when Chriſt came unto them being his owne, and they received him not, this rejecting of the Iewes for unbeliefe R. B. denyed, and would not grant, and he thought hee had good reaſon for it, becauſe he thought then in his deep judgement it would imply, as if they had been the people of God by nature, and free that way: but now of himſelfe he is pleaſed to acknowledge ſome: further hee ſaith as thoſe were caſt off, ſo the old and carnall Covenant as before he ſaith, he ſhewed, I then and now again tell him, that was a carnall expreſſion, ſo to call that gracious covenant of Almightie God: Abraham hee ſaith had other Nations, which were ſo reputed in regard of their Faith, and walking in his ſteps; I ſay ſurely theſe p. 49are the Gentiles Nations, Rom. 4. which place he alleadgeth, in obſerving to whom Abraham was a Father to: and Math. 19 Eph. 16.Matt 19ſaith marke, and ſo I ſay marke them Nations that believe and walke in the ſteps of Abraham, and who ſaith otherwiſe. But to young and old compleat Nations, as was the Nation of the Iewes. He goeth on and ſaith Gala. 3. 29. ſuch as are Chriſts, are Abrahams young Children, are Chriſt even as Iſaac, of ſuch he ſaith himſelfe, are his Kingdome, the Gentiles are fellow heires &c. Theſe latter, Nations he meaneth, or elſe he deludeth in the caſe: are Abrahams ſpirituall ſeed, and are by expreſſe command to be baptiſed, Math. 28. Mark. 16. hath not the man travelled farre to little purpoſe: unleſſe to confute himſelfe: The Nations of the Gentiles that beleeve, they are Abrahams ſpirituall ſeed, and are by Chriſts expreſſe command to be baptiſed, as R. B. acknowledgeth, and Infants are a part of theſe Nations, and ſo alſo to be baptiſed. But what ſaith hee? is all this to the baptiſing of Children that beleeve not? I aske how hee knoweth they doe not believe, if they believe not they cannot be ſaved: he againe ſaith, and therefore not believing are none of Abrahams ſpirituall ſeed, Iſaack when a Infant could not beleeve after that way R. B. intendeth, yet he was Abrahams ſpirituall ſeed, ſo were the Infants of Iſrael of old, and now we Gentiles are as Iſaack, ſo as I ſuppoſe it is much to the purpoſe, though he ſee it not: and therefore ſayes that children not believing, are therefore none of ABRAHAMS ſpirituall ſeed, who onelyonly are to bee baptiſed, fie what poore matter is this; hee ſaith that which followeth is likewiſe nothing to the purpoſe, namely that the Nations that are made ABRAHAMS ſeed, the NATIONS that are ſaved, the Kingdomes that ſhall become the Kingdomes of the Lord, muſt needs receive Chriſts badg, p. 50and be baptiſed, this he ſaith is granted but proveth nothing; that is a wonderfull thing if Children bee apart as before of thoſe Nations, that he ſhould grant the baptiſing of the whole, and yet denie one part; what is his reaſon that before, over againe, none are Abrahams ſeed, but ſuch as are Chriſts, firſt Iſaack and the Infants of Iſrael were firſt Chriſts, and the Gentiles are partakers of the ſame promiſe: But he urgeth further (like an unwiſe man) they walke in his ſteps, what did Jſaack ſo walke when he was an Infant? doe his workes? to apply theſe Scriptures to Infants ſheweth great weakneſſe and folly: yet he goeth on farther, and ſaith that no Kingdome doth become the Kingdome of the Lord, but thoſe that feare and ſerve him kiſſe the Sonne, Pſal. 101. Heare his voyce Acts 3. 22. and have him to reigne over them, all which he applyeth againſt Children, groſſely abuſing the Scriptures as any man that hath but halfe an eye may ſee: I …x. 19. 6aske him did the Nation of the Jewes that was Gods Nation as well as Abrahams, and a peculiar people, their Infants and all doe ſo? did thoſe Infants ſo heare Gods voyce, ſeare and ſerve God kiſſe the Son; R. B. is in a Labyrinth ſure. But yet further he urgeth that the Scriptures doe, not declare the ſalvation of any; but ſuch as doe believe, ſo no children in his account, but his reckoning is utterly untrue: he goeth on, ſaying thoſe that believe on the Sonne have life, but ſuch as believe not (as Children hee ſaith doe not) the wrath of God abideth on them, a fearfull Mat. 2 1…Matt 2:1doom for Children, Herod was a great Enemy to the Children of Bethlehem, for he deſtroyed them all in one day, R. B. exceedeth he deſigneth all the children in the children in the world at once to utter deſtruction and the wrath of God; he concludeth thus, therefore in refuſing Infants which beleeve no…, but have as before the wrath of God abiding on them. A fearefull doctrine, R. B. ſaith p. 51for himſelf and the reſt with him, if any pleaſe to beleeve him that they doe not curtaile the Nations which Abraham was to be a father of. If any will take his word for it they may; but beleeve him who liſt, I ſhall not, for as Herod did curtaile, that is cut off a part of Bethlehem when he deſtroyed the children of two yeeres, for which there was ſo great mourning in Ramah, and as Pharaoh did curtaile Iſrael when he deſtroyed or did endeavour to deſtroy Exod. 1.Exod 1their children: So in like manner to reject children from a nation or people in a relative way as R. B. doth, is to curtaile a nation or people what ever R. B. ſay to the contrary. When God changed his purpoſe of deſtroying Nineve, he ſpeaketh of the greatneſſe of the people, Iona. 4. 11.Jonah 4:11and that there were ſixſcore thouſand that could not diſcerne betwixt the right han… and the left, that is children, a part of the whole, that muſt be either be ſaved or periſh together in the judgement: The infants of Iſrael were a part of the nation of Iſrael and ſuch as ſhared both in mercies and judgements, which happily when R. B. hath better conſidered of hee may change alſo his thoughts about children and have more charitie toward them. I ſhall ſet downe the Argument againe, and leave the reader to judge of it, now he hath heard what is ſaid of both ſides. There is a command for baptizing of nations; Children or infants are a part of theſe nations, Ergo there is the command of Chriſt for Baptizing infants. But R. B. i… angrie about this 28. Matth. being alleadged againſt him, and ſaith, nothing can be ſaid more contrarie poſſibly, for what it is alleadged, ſo ſenſuring me for vain jangler and one that underſtood not what I ſpoke nor whereof, I did affirme▪ he concludeth his anſwer, never ſaying any thing to that of the Iewiſh Nation being borne again in one day, whether then their infants ſhall be left cut is no more capable of the Grace of God, nor yet to what I p. 50duplicate page p. 51duplicate page p. 52further ſaid about their being firſt taught & then baptized which I ſaid was an adition of their owne coine, not found in the ſcripture, and being preſumption in any to adde it to the 28. Matth. 19. I ſaid in the end of my diſcourſe alſo that diſtinction is to be put betwixt perſons of yeeres and infants, that perſons of yeeres are firſt to be taught, but not children, as of old the Proſelites were, but not their infants. That it were unreaſonable to require it of them now in Baptiſme, it not being required of them in Circumciſion, that no Conditionall if, can be put in the caſe of infants. To all which R. B. ſaith nothing, for ſure he granteth it all, and ſo taketh himſelfe guiltie of that frowardneſſe I obſerved in ſome, in ſetting children againſt their parents in the caſe of beleeving and intereſt in the Covenant of Almightie God: a thing they have taken up by tradition, and never learned it of the holy ſcripture: And yet in it lieth the great force and ſtrength of theſe mens reaſoning, oppoſing young children to their godly Parents, making the one a beleever and the other an Infidell, making the Infant of a beleever an unbeleever, to whom pertaineth the wrath of God, and ſo applying and opening all ſcriptures for the one againſt the other, when as it is verie cleare by the ſcripture, as in part may be ſeene by what is before declared. That children are alwayes taken and minded as included, and ſo ſharing and having right with their Parents and not otherwiſe. I ſhall beare his cenſure patiently which he layeth on me, and conclude this Anſwer, ſaying as R. B. doth, and I thinke the reader will judge I ſay the truth; that R. B. his whole Anſwer is not onelyonly weake and Impertinent, but that it doth declare the Authour thereof to be very erroneous, that it is full of fayned fables fathered unjuſtly on his oppoſite, and hath many things in it contradictorie to his owne principles, p. 53ſo as he that ſhall read the Anſwer diſcovered and laid open, will ſure judge what ever R. B. intended hee hath rendered his cauſe and practiſe which hee endeavoured to defend, evill and naught, and an error to be deſerted and ſhunned of all the people of God, which God give them wiſdome to ſee aright.