A Dialogue Between a Papist and Protestant, Dialogue (2 of 3)

A Dialogue Between a Papist and Protestant · Dialogue (2 of 3)

p. 54Pro.

In few words I may name ſome, if that will pleaſure ye: our carnall proteſtants are couetous greedie worldlings, craftie in their dealings to ſéeke all aduantages againſt thoſe with whom they deale, full of vſurie and briberie: and theſe things are alſo in you, our carnall Goſpellers are very fowle mouthed in ſlaunderings, railings, ribaldries, and horrible othes: theſe things ye make no cōſcience of. Our carnall proteſtants are giuen ouer to ſpend their time in gluttonies, drinkings, vaine pleaſures, and vnlawfull exerciſes: theſe are your veniall ſinnes, and whoſoeuer will not runne with ye to powre out themſelues in the ſame exceſſe of riot, they are preciſe fooles: more nice then wiſe: they do it but of vaine glorie and ſingularitie.

Pa.

Ye may bee aſhamed to charge vsus with ſuch things, ſeeing our Church hath alwaies vſed ſo ſharp diſcipline vponupon ſuch offenders: you may iuſtly be charged, becauſe ye let looſe the raines vntounto all vices: yee giuegive the fleſh the ſwinge: yee hauehave no diſcipline among ye, to make men ſtand in awe.

Pro.

We may be aſhamed to ſpeake truth of you: but you muſt not once bluſh at the matter when ye blaſpheme the glorious Goſpell p. 55of Chriſt: and why? onelyonly becauſe ye are paſt ſhame: but let your words goe, and come to your matter. You may not in no caſe bée blamed for ſuch vices, which hauehave alwayes holden men in awe with ſharpe diſcipline, and corrected the offenders. It is well knowne to al wiſe mē what your diſcipline was: true it is that ye did hold men wonderfully in awe, but of whom? not of God, but of the Romiſh prelate. No man durſt wagge his finger againſt him: no man might once finde fault with any of his dirtie inuentions, vnderunder paine of his extreme and heauie curſe. But each man might liue as he luſt in all vices againſt God: onelie he muſt confeſſe his ſinnes to the prieſt, and receiue a certaine penance, to faſt certaine daies, or to goe on pilgrimage to ſome Saint: or to hauehave the Popes pardon for a péece of money, not onelyonly for his ſinnes paſt, but alſo for thoſe which he ſhould afterward commit. Others when they had committed ſome horrible ſinnes, muſt whip themſelues, and ſo at it againe. Thus your holy pope, did open the gate to all vncleannes, and therefore in the Scriptures is called the man of ſinne.

Pa.

This ſeemeth very ſtrange to me, how penance and correction ſhould open the gate vntounto all ſin. It ſeemeth by your words, that men would louelove ſinne the better, becauſe it ſhould bee puniſhed. I would wiſh ye to be better aduiſed in your words, for I could take ye in many ſuch abſurdities: p. 56but I am almoſt aſhamed to recite them, they bee ſo childiſh trifles, to come from any one of your coate, which profeſſe learning. But let me ſee how you ſhut vp the gate againſt ſinne, which inioyne no penance or correction. It is a world to ſee the vanity of mens minds, which perſwade themſelues, that they can make men beleeue the crow is white: alas your poore Sophiſtrie is not able to doe this. Yet I perceiue ye hauehave ſome grace in ye, for I trow ye bluſh.

Pro.

It would make any man bluſh I trow, to be taken in ſuch a trip, and ſo to ouer-ſhoote himſelfe, as I hauehave done, by affirming that your diſcipline did open the gate vntounto al ſinne. For can ſuch ſharpe penance, as to faſt three daies together with bread and water: or to go bare footed to our Ladie of Walſingame: or for a man to whip himſelfe vntill the blood follow: or to giuegive ten ſhillings for a pardon, make men louelove ſinne the better? This geare I trow would ſcarre them, and make them to hauehave little luſt to ſinne. Oh no good ſir, this is nothing ſo ſharpe as hell fire: men finde ſuch a ſwéete taſte in ſinne, that if they may eſcape ſo they will not care. The adulterer hath ſuch pleaſure in his vncleane luſt, that he will to it againe, if he may be perſwaded it be but a whipping matter. The drunkard will hauehave one pot of ale the more, if he may heale the matter againe by drinking a cup of water. The enuious and hatefull man p. 57will hauehave one fling at his enemie, if a payre of old angels will diſpatch the matter, and procure his pardon at the hands of the holy father: and ſo in each ſinne. O yée holy hell-hounds, here is your ſharpe diſcipline, by which ye giuegive liberty vntounto men to turne back to vncleannes, euen as a dogge to his vomite. But while wee reproue your diſcipline, wée hauehave none our ſelues: and ſo we doe but play the Sophiſters, which would take vponupon them to proue that the crow is white. Sir, before I come to our diſcipline, I ſay our doctrine is this, that vnderunder paine of Gods curſe and eternall damnation, men muſt returne from their wicked waies, and not returne vntounto them againe: they muſt giuegive vp themſelues wholly to ſerue God in all good workes. As for the diſcipline of our Church, thus ſharp it is, y^t the obſtinate ſinner is to be cut off frō the congregation, & to be deliuered vp vntounto ſatan & not to he receiued in again, vntil ſuch time as he hath declared very apparant tokens of déepe ſorow & harty repentance. Let al men iudge whether this be not to ſhut vp the gate againſt ſinne.

Pa.

Now you may very well be likened vntounto a man that will make great brags of his riches, when he is nothing worth. A marueilous ſharpe diſcipline ye ſpeake of: but I pray ye where ſhal a mā find it? euē in your Spirituall courts, for there a mā if the officer cannot get his fee, ſhall be curſed to the diuell, & throwne out of y^e church: yea ſo ſeuerely p. 58that he ſhall not be receiued in againe, before he come weeping, vntill the teares drop out of his purſe. O yee diſſolute teachers of libertie, and maintainers of iniquitie, ceaſe your bragging of thoſe things which are not among ye.

Pro.

Your blaſphemous tongue will neuer ceaſe, vnleſſe it be cut out of your head: doo we teach libertie? doe wee maintaine iniquitie? Admit your ſaying bee true, yet I pray you how ſlenderly doe you reaſon, when yée ſay, that a mā is excommunicated for money, and receiued in againe for money, although they doe not repent: and therefore your Goſpell giueth libertie to ſinne. Oh good ſir, Chriſt and his Goſpell allow no ſuch thing: if men doe offend, doe not you therefore blame the trueth: for there is no equitie nor good dealing in that. What though we hauehave not the diſcipline of the Goſpell in our Church, here in this land, ſo whole and ſound as it ſhould bee, yet becauſe wee allow it, wee pray for it, wee thirſt after it, wee confeſſe the want thereof: we ought not to be charged as thoſe which defile Gods houſe, we waite when it ſhall pleaſe God to put into the hearts of our godly gouernours to purge the Church by it.

Pa.

You giuegive the greater colour vntounto the matter, becauſe a few among you ſpeake of ſuch a thing: what is that to the purpoſe? the whole diſcipline of your Church, which all thoſe which are your Church doe acknowledge, is eſtabliſhed p. 59among ye, there is no want confeſſed.

Pro.

No man is to regarde what a few or many doe ſpeake, but what God doth ſpeake by his word. Whereas yée affirme that our Church doth acknowledge no wāt, I ſay our Church doth acknowledge a want: for who are the Church, or of the Church, but ſuch as doe embrace the whole word of GOD? But leaſt ye ſhould ſtill goe forward after your former maner, and ſay that a few doe this, & not the ſtate of our Church: looke in the booke of our Common Prayer, and there ye ſhall finde that the graue & godly fathers of our Church, when they did reforme it from Poperie, ſetting down the curſes out of Moſes, which are to be denounced at a certaine time in the yere: they doe withall ſet downe and declare their meaning, namely, that this ſhould bee for a time in ſtead of that diſcipline, which they can not onelyonly confeſſe to bee wanting, but alſo greatly to be deſired: as they wiſhed for it.

Pa.

I cannot tell what the fathers of your Church doe ſet downe there, neither doe I minde to looke. VVhen ye hauehave ſaid all that yee can, yee ſhall be driuen to confeſſe that there is all looſenes and libertie vntounto the fleſh among ye. Ye hauehave feaſting and gluttonie, in ſtead of faſting. O our good forefathers, how much are ye vnlike them? they did oftentimes faſt and puniſh their bodies, and goe in ſackcloth: theſe new Goſpellers hauehave found a more eaſie way, they can doe all contrary p. 60and yet goe to heauen neuertheleſſe. Our fathers liued in great ſtraightnes, and theſe walke at libertie: which of theſe ſhall we like beſt? ſhall we forſake them and allow of theſe? No, Chriſt telleth vsus, The way is ſtraight which leadeth vntounto heauen. If euer any walked in that way, they were our forefathers, which puniſhed themſelues, and liued ſo deuoutly.

Pro.

If there bee looſenes and libertie among vsus, it is by them which obey not the Goſpell, which calleth them from all ſinfull luſts of the fleſh, vntounto the obedience of Gods holy wil. The right faſt which the Scripture doth commend is in eſtimation among vsus: we doe not onelyonly write and ſpeake of it, but alſo hauehave and are ready for to practiſe it, both publikely and priuately. That which you brag of is not the true faſt: for although a man cram his bellie neuer ſo full of fiſh, ſo that hée abſtaine frō fleſh, you call it a faſt. Swéet wines and daintie iunkets are allowed in your faſt. Moreouer ye faſt, when ye doe it in the moſt ſtraight maner, and pine your ſelues, to a moſt wicked and abominable end: for ye doe it as a worke which is meritorious, ye ſéeke remiſſion of your ſinnes by it: and ſo ye denie the redemption by the merits of Chriſt only: which is ſo curſed & blaſphemous a thing, that it doth turne al your faſtings and praiers into ſinne. Your faſting is ſuch as God did reproue in the Iewes, by his prophets: and ſuch as the blind p. 61Phariſie boaſted of, ſaying:Luke 18.Luke 18 I faſt twiſe in the weeke. Doubtles if the abſtaining from meate could make a man holy, the Phariſies ſhould hauehave béen excéeding holy men, and the ancient Iewes againſt whom the Lord complained, ſhould hauehave bin cōmended: but they like hypocrites faſted from bodily ſuſtenance, and filled themſelues with all ſpiritual wickednes: euen ſuch are you, O ye deteſtable hypocrites, although ye goe ſometimes with emptie bellies, yet your ſoules are as full of ſin as euer they cā hold. We hauehave iuſt cauſe to cry out againſt ye for ſeducing ſo many of our forefathers, and making them beléeue that the very broad way to hell, was the norrow & ſtraight way which leadeth vntounto heauen. You blind Phariſies, anſwere, is that the ſtraight way vntounto life, which the ſtarkeſt hypocrite of all, & the moſt vngodly men can obſerue and walke in as well as other? Is that the narrow gate, which the couetous, the malicious, the adulterous and vniuſt man, can paſſe in at as well as other? Tell me this, can there not be a lecherous heart, and a malicious minde in a bodie couered with ſackcloth? Cannot a wicked hypocrite puniſh his body, pine and whip himſelfe, and yet his ſinfull ſoule within neuer a whit reformed? This then is not the ſtraight way, but the ſtraight way is that which Chriſt and his Apoſtles doe teach, which none can finde nor walke in, but the true faithfull p. 62man: namely, to denie himſelfe, to kil and crucifie all ſinfull luſts and concupiſcences in the heart: to ſéeke out the will of God, and in all things to obey it. This is the narrow way which all thoſe are to ſéeke after if they will be ſaued: all our godly forefathers hauehave walked in this way, and ſought thus to pleaſe God: they knew that the kingdome of heauē could not bee purchaſed by any ſuch outward trifles as you deuiſed: but that ſuch as will enter in there muſt bée new borne. No man therefore néede to feare when he walketh in this ſtraight way which we publiſh by the doctrine of the Goſpell: becauſe he doth not forſake our forefathers, vnleſſe it be ſuch as hauehave forſaken the trueth, being ſeduced by Antichriſt.

Pa.

VVhat is it which you cannot do, that can ſo eaſily proue all the holy deuotion of ſuch as liue a ſtraight life to bee but hypocriſie: but ſay what ye will, ye ſhall neuer be able to proue, that ſuch things are trifles, I know well enough that your ſect make ſmall account of all religious obſeruations: let them beleeue ye that will, is it poſſible that God ſhould refuſe thoſe men, which of a good meaning and deuotion are ſo carefull to pleaſe him? which are content to take ſo great paines to ſerue him, and are ſo humble minded, as to refuſe nothing by which they may abaſe themſelues, to pleaſe him. O that you heretikes did but a little know how deuoute the minde of the Catholike p. 63is: ye would euen bee aſhamed that euer ye were ſo fooliſh to ſeparate your ſelues from ſo holy a companie. But alas the world hath blinded your eyes, and the diuell hath be witched ye ſo far, that ye care not for any goodnes.

Pro.

All faithfull Chriſtians doe knowe well enough the blinde deuotion of you Papiſts: and are ſo farre from being aſhamed to ſeparate themſelues from yée, that they giuegive immortall thankes and praiſe to God, that he hath opened their eyes to ſée the light, and to auoide that ſtrong deluſion which you are deluded withall, what good meaning and deuotion ſo euer yée pretend, what paines ſo euer ye take, how humble ſo euer ye ſéeme to be: yet God will refuſe to acknowledge ye for his ſeruants, becauſe ye refuſe his ordinances, and deuiſe toyes of your owne, which ye thruſt vponupon him, and as it were force him to accept them. If ye did meane well, ye would doe better: your deuotion is diuelliſh obſtinacie: your méekenes is haughtineſſe, in deſpiſing God. You hauehave forgottē what the Lord ſaith: In vaine doe they worſhip me,Eſay 29. Matth. 15.Isa 29Matt 15 teaching for doctrines the precepts of men.

Pa.

VVhere learne you to giuegive ſuch rayling ſentence againſt the deuotion of holy men, and to iudge? Ye boaſt of the Goſpell, ye hauehave nothing els in your mouth: and yet the Goſpell willeth ye not for to iudge. This doth declare what ſpirit ye are led with.

p. 64Pro.

If your Romiſh rowte were holy deuoute men, then no doubt wee ſhould be found to giuegive rayling ſentence: and if the holy ſcriptures did not warrant vsus ſo to ſpeake of thoſe which are open enemies to GOD, then wée might iuſtly be blamed: or if wee ſhould enter ſo far as to iudge of the ſecrets of mens harts, & not where the word of God doth pronounce the iudgement, then were wee to be condemned: but ſéeing the word doth teach y^t which we vtter, wee neither giuegive rayling ſentence, neither doe wee iudge, otherwiſe then to pronounce out of Gods trueth, what is holy, and what is wicked and abominable.

Pa.

Proue thoſe things which you hauehave ſaid out of the word, as that good intents are not pleaſing to God: that when men are deuout and take paines to ſerue God, it is diueliſh: and other ſuch like, and I wil be your bondman while I liue.

Pro.

Good intents doe pleaſe God: God doth require that men ſhould be deuoute, and take paines to ſerue him: and vnleſſe theſe things bee in them they are not his ſeruants. But yours are no good intents but phantaſies of your owne braine: for they procéede not of faith, becauſe they bee not ordered by Gods word,Rom. 14.Rom 14 but againſt the word: and whatſoeuer is not of faith is ſinne. Your worſhip being not framed after the will of God, but procéeding from your owne liking, is no more but blinde deuotion, when ye hauehave taken all the p. 65paines ye can, and hauehave wearied your ſelues, this ſhall bee your reward:Eſay 1.Isa 1 Who required theſe things at your hands? Who did ſet ye a worke, and appoynt ye this ſeruice? As concerning ſuch kinde of worſhip as yours, the Apoſtle doth call it will-worſhip: for when he hath ſpoken of commandements and doctrines of men, he addeth thus:Coloſ. 2.Col 2 Which things hauehave a ſhew of wiſedome, in voluntarie worſhip, and humbleneſſe of minde, and not ſparing the bodie: which things are of no eſtimation, ſéeing they pertaine to the filling of the fleſh. This place of Saint Paul well obſerued, doth fully and cléerely without any expoſition quite ouerthrow all your Popiſh religion. For he ſheweth, that before GOD all ſuch traſh is of no eſtimation. Againe, his deſcription doth ſo fitly paynt out Poperie, and that which you bragge of, as nothing can bee more apt. Marke well eueryevery branch and member of his words, and ye will confeſſe the ſame. He demaundeth of the Coloſſians, how it commeth to paſſe, that if they be dead with Chriſt from the rudiments of the world, that they bee burdened with traditions?Coloſ. 1.Col 1 as touch not, taſte not, &c. Which things periſh in their vſe: and therefore this concluſion is to bée drawne out, that the eternall and ſpirituall kingdome of GOD, doth not conſiſt in ſuch things. For how ſhould the kingdome of God conſiſt in thoſe things which periſh?

p. 66Pa.

Ye would make ſomewhat of nothing: that place of S. Paul is not againſt vsus. If yee hauehave none other, ye cannot ouerthrow our religion.

Pro.

Ye doe interrupt me in the middeſt of my matter, onelyonly to cauill, becauſe ye are loth to hauehave this place of ſcripture touched, ſeeing it doth ſo fully open and diſplay your wardes. Becauſe ye ſay it maketh not againſt ye, and would faine paſſe from it, I will leade ye to it by the eares. Doth not your religion ſtand in outward things which periſh in their vſe? Are not your traditions the commandements and doctrines of men? Let all the world iudge of that. And Saint Paul doth make that a ſufficient reaſon to ouerthrow any thing whatſoeuer, in the ſeruice of God. If it bee of man, the holy Ghoſt would hauehave vsus make no further inquiſition, but to take it for dung, and draugh, how goodly ſoeuer it ſéeme and gliſter as gold.Eſay 29. Matth. 15.Isa 29Matt 15 Doth not the Lord alſo ſay: In vaine doe they worſhip me, teaching for doctrines the precepts of men? Well, to goe forward, theſe deuiſes of yours are marueilouſly well liked, and the people of the world, are made very deuoute towards God by them: indéede the people of the world doe like well ſuch religion, and it carrieth them to a kinde of deuotion, & to eſtéeme ſuch matters to hauehave great wiſedome in them. Therefore the Apoſtle doth ſay, that thoſe inuentions of men hauehave a ſhew of wiſedome: and the people vſe to ſay, p. 67I warrant ye our fathers which deuiſed theſe things, were wiſe men. But marke well the cauſes which the Lord doth ſet downe, why theſe things ſéeme to hauehave ſuch wiſedome, and why they be ſo well liked of. The firſt cauſe is, that it is a voluntary religion: a religion which being framed by the corrupt will and braine of men, is very well pleaſing to the deuiſers: and doth alſo fit other men, whoſe wil and braine is as corrupt as theirs. For as that which procéedeth from the will of God, is contrary to the wiſedome of fleſh, and therefore miſliked and condemned of folly: ſo that which commeth out of mans will, is agréeable to man: and therefore approued and commended as the onelyonly wiſedome. Thus may we ſée (when the Apoſtle ſaith, ſuch things hauehave a ſhew of wiſedome in voluntary religion) how it commeth to paſſe, that the worſhip which is ſet by the policie and inuention of men, is better accepted of, then that which procéedeth from the will of God.

Pa.

Ye hauehave enough of that place, vnleſſe ye would expound it more truly: there are manie ſcriptures which make for your purpoſe, if ye may hauehave this ſcope, to take them as ye luſt. Leaue off your vaine heape of words, with which ye goe about to bleare mens eyes, and to draw and wreſt the Scriptures to your owne ſenſe. It were much better for ye to meddle leſſe.

Pro.

All men may eaſily ſee, that this place p. 68of Scripture doth bite ye to the bone: no marueile therefore though ye hauehave enough of it, for leſſe would better content ye. There are many Scriptures indéede which make for our purpoſe, without any wreſting at all. Euen as this one place of Saint Paul which we be in hande with, néedeth no wreſting to make it ſpeake againſt you, when as eueryevery blind man which cannot ſée, may yet by groping, féele the waight of it againſt ye. But let your fooliſh words paſſe which deſerue no anſwere, and come again to the matter The next cauſe why ſuch draugh as yours, being but the fooliſh and doltiſh dreames of men, hath ſuch a ſhew of wiſedome: and that is the humblenes of minde which appeareth in ſuch holy hypocrites as worſhip God after their own fantaſie. They doe ſo abaſe themſelues, and are as méeke and lowly as can be. What can a man deuiſe to be more hūble then a deuout Papiſt? he will doe any thing: he is content to bowe downe and to licke vp the duſt at the féete of a ſtock or a ſtone: he doth ſo abaſe himſelfe that he is content to worſhip rotten bones: yea whatſoeuer the holy father of Rome will lay vponupon him, he is readie to beare, his minde is ſo humble. But this is not humilitie, O ye blind aſſes, but pride and haughtineſſe of ſpirit euen againſt God, againſt whom ye preſume, and take vponupon ye to bee wiſer then he, becauſe ye refuſe the worſhip which he hath preſcribed, p. 69and think ye can frame a better of your owne. This is the humilitie of you Papiſts, in thoſe good intents, and deuotion which ye bragge ſo much of: ye are like ſturdie Rogues, whom a man would take by their patched cloakes to be gentle and lowly: when as indéede they be excéeding proude and rebellious againſt all good lawes. The third & laſt reaſon which S. Paul ſetteth downe, why there is ſuch a ſhew of wiſedome in corrupt religiō, is in this clauſe when he ſaith, Not ſparing the bodie: for look how men which are proude men are moued with a ſhew of humilitie: ſo alſo, although they walke after the fleſh, and the fleſh raigneth in them: yet they like of mortification, after a ſort, a ſhew whereof doth appeare in the outward puniſhing of the fleſh, which becauſe they are able to attaine vntounto, they take it to goe for good payment: and when they hauehave pined themſelues with hunger for a while; whipped themſelues, or gone barefooted, and barelegged, they ſuppoſe they hauehave mortified the fleſh. Alas poore wretches, how humble they bée not to ſpare their bodies, to take ſuch paines to ſerue GOD, and yet neuer the better. For when their ſkinne is torne, their heart is whole within ſtill, and as full of all vncleanneſſe as it was before. Theſe are the things which ye boaſt of, and y^e Apoſtle ſaith: They be of no price,Coloſ. 1.Col 1 becauſe they pertaine but to the filling of the fleſh. The Diuell hath p. 70bewitched men after this ſort, to leade them from the ſight of the true mortification of the fleſh, through the ſpirit vntounto outward things of no value. Thus we may vnderſtand, that all your goodly ſhew which yee make, is nothing worth: all your religion is but ſuperſtition: they do but loſe their labour which trauell in it, and are ſo farre off from pleaſing God, that he doth accurſe and abhorre their doings.

Pa.

A man may ſee what trim ſhifts you heretikes can make: but for my part I am not moued one iot thereby to like of your religion. For it cannot be good, when there are ſo many ſects among yee, which it doth hatch and bring forth. For your Goſpell doth come into no place, but by and by vp ſtarts one and he doth maintaine this hereſie; another he doth maintaine that hereſie, and there is ſuch ſnatching, as if a man ſhould ſhake out a bagge full of errors, and eueryevery one catcheth that which doth like him beſt: for ſuch effect doth follow of your preaching in all places. If it were of GOD, would this come to paſſe? Can errors ariſe of true doctrine? No, this were enough to warne all wiſe men to take heed of ye, and to flie farre from ye, although there were no more. In our religion we are all of one minde, and agree together: and therefore ours is the trueth. All that will be ſaued, muſt come and agree with vsus.

Pro.

Nothing can moue you to bee of our p. 71religion: and why? Becauſe it cannot be good. Nay, becauſe it cannot hauehave your allowance to be good: for the holy word of God is ſo perfectly good, (which is our whole religion) that all the poyſon which ſuch venemous beaſts as you are able for to vomite vp, is not of force to infect it. But I doe ye wrong, for you ſhew a great reaſon why it cannot be good. Well, I will anſwere it. The reaſon which ye vſe here againſt vsus, is that bolt which ye hauehave taught eueryevery foole to ſhoote: but a very courſe armour will defend a man from it: it giueth but a bumpe, and neuer doth pearce, but rebound backe againe. Neuertheleſſe, becauſe among you it is eſtéemed as a ſharpe arrow, and principall weapon, I will take ſomewhat the more paines, not onelyonly to view it my ſelfe, but alſo to let others ſée the power thereof. Trueth it is, that whatſoeuer is of God, or whatſoeuer is good, cannot bring foorth that which is euill: no more then darkneſſe can bring foorth light, or heate can cauſe colde: for how can any thing bréede that which is of a quite contrary nature to it ſelfe. But ſay you, Whereſoeuer your Goſpell commeth, there follow ſundrie ſects and hereſies: one maintaineth this, and another that, with ſundry diuiſions. Therfore your Goſpell is not of God, it is not the trueth. Before ye make this concluſion ſtrong and ſure, ye muſt proue, that as all ſorts of errors do ſpring where the Goſpell p. 72is preached, which is ſo indéede, that in like maner the Goſpell is the cauſe of them and doth bréede them, which ye ſhall neuer be able to doe. For as Chriſt and his Goſpell bring peace, and yet he ſaith he came not to ſend peace,Matth. 10.Matt 10 but a ſword, and to ſet the father againſt the ſonne, and the mother againſt the daughter: and there ſhall be fiue in one houſe, two againſt thrée, and thrée againſt two: euen ſo the Goſpell is the trueth, and ſetteth forth the doctrine of vnitie, and yet whereſoeuer it commeth all kinde of errors ſpring vp. Now eueryevery wiſe man will confeſſe that Chriſt is the author of peace, and the ſtrife that ariſeth betwéene men is not to be imputed to his doctrine, but to the diuell, and his ſeruants which warre and fight againſt vsus, becauſe they hate it, and ſéeke to baniſh it. The ſame diuell is the cauſe of hereſies, for to diſcredite the word of God: whereſoeuer it is taught he ſetteth vp his ſchoole alſo, and will hauehave his ſchollers goe vnderunder the name of the Goſpell. For this is one of the readieſt waies that can be to bring the word of God into contempt, and to make men afraide of it. Sée, ſay they, how many hereſies theſe men fall into, which meddle with the Scriptures: were it not much better that there were no ſuch preaching?

Pa.

Doe ye then allow of ſtrife, and errors, that ye will needes hauehave them to be companions of your Goſpell?

p. 73Pro.

If ye can gather that we allow of the diuell and his miniſters, ye may alſo affirme that we allow of theſe, for we aſcribe all theſe to them. They bée no companions of our Goſpell, vnleſſe yée take it in this ſenſe, that they alway accompanie the ſame, as vtter enemies to ouerthrow and deſtroy it. The holie Scriptures doe teſtifie,2. Pet. 2.2 Pet 2 that there ſhall bée falſe Prophets, falſe Teachers, and Antichriſts in the Church to ſeduce the people.1. Iohn 2.1 John 2 And the experience of all times doth ſhew the ſame.Phil. 3. 2. Cor. 10.Phil 32 Cor 10 For were not the falſe Apoſtles in all places ſet againſt Saint Paul, and the other Apoſtles? Doe not the bookes and writings of ancient fathers ſhortly after the Apoſtles ſhewe what fowle monſters roſe vp in the Church, and what horrible errors did vexe the peace therof? Were not y^e right Catholike fathers within ſhort time after the Apoſtles of Chriſt merueilouſly troubled with heretikes, and had as it were their hands full in confuting them? Doe not their bookes remaine vntounto this day in which they doe confute them? I wonder greatly how you Papiſts ſhould bee ſo ſhameleſſe beaſts, as not to denie that the Goſpell in thoſe former dayes had ſo manie and ſo fowle errours ſpringing vp with it, and yet not to bée blamed: and now ſo wickedly to blaſpheme it, when yée ſée the ſame thing come to paſſe: yée might rather beléeue that it is the trueth, p. 74becauſe ye ſée the ſame ſucceſſe now which it had of old, and how the diuell doth ſweate to quench and ouerthrow it. Tell me this O ye hounds of hell: did the Goſpell hatch or bréed the abominable errors of Ebion, Cerinthus, Saturninus, Carpocrates, Baſilides, and ſuch like? Did the Goſpell bring foorth the diueliſh opinions of Arrius, Manicheus, & of others which ſprang vp with it? If ye ſhame to ſay it did: why then ſhould ye not now be as much aſhamed to charge it with the errors of the Anabaptiſts, Libertines, and the Family of LoueLove, and other, which are the warriors of the diuell as well as you, to fight againſt the truth? As for this that ye ſay, You did all agrée, and were of one minde: It is very true in this, to reſiſt God and his Goſpell, but otherwiſe it is falſe: for ye hauehave a multitude of ſects and ſundrie orders amongſt ye, which could not one away with the other. Your whole church of Rome is but a ſchiſme, and an Apoſtaſie from the Goſpell, and Church of God: and yet among your ſelues deuided into a great number of ſects and ſchiſmes. For as among the Corinths, I hold of Paul ſaith one, I hold of Apollo, 1. Cor. 1.1 Cor 1ſaith another, the third of Cephas: So among you, I am of Benedictus order, I am of Francis, I am of Auguſtine, and a rablement beſides, both of Monks and Friers, and other ſuch vermine. Theſe agréed all in this, that they acknowledged the Pope, and had their p. 75confirmation from him, as from the fountaine and maine head, which ſent foorth riuers and ſtreames eueryevery way: for he was the head, not of vnitie, but of all ſchiſmes. The head indéed of vnitie, as they held all of him, but of diuiſion, that eueryevery one put holineſſe in his order, and ſought ſaluation thereby.Epheſ. 4.Eph 4 There is but one God, one faith, one baptiſme, one Lord Ieſus Chriſt: and therefore but one way to life eternall, how many ſoeuer you hauehave inuented: which indéede are but crooked paths that leade to hell. I let paſſe your diſſention in thoſe poynts which among you ſhould bée of the moſt waightie things.

Pa.

I could ſhew many horrible things againſt ye, but I ſee well it is to no purpoſe: a man were euen as good hold his tongue, he ſhall hauehave anſwere at your hands, with ſo many flim flammes, and toyes. I will leaue ye as I found ye, ſeeing I can doe you no good: it is but a folly for a man to powre water vponupon a ſtone, to make it ſoft.

Pro.

I doubt not but that you and your fellowes hauehave ſo wel profited in the ſchoole of the father of lyes, in which ye hauehave béen trained vp, that yee are able to vtter many horrible things againſt vsus, euē as true, as thoſe which ye hauehave vttered alreadie. Therefore in very déede yee were better a great deale to holde your tongue, then ſo ſhamefully to abuſe it in blaſpheming the glorious Goſpell of GOD. The anſwers which I doe giuegive, are ſuch flim p. 76flammes as the word of God doth expreſſe. I thanke God hee hath ſo opened mine eyes to ſee his trueth, that euen the moſt craftie iugling of Papiſts cannot bring mee into any mammering: a man ought to ſtand faſt and to be rooted in the doctrine of the Lord, that is no hardnes, as you eſtéeme it, neither is yours the water of life, which yee would powre vponupon me, but filthie ſtinking mud, which ye hauehave drawne out of the puddle of Poperie. Ye offer mee drinke, but not wholeſome wine, but dregs, which ye bring in the golden cup of the whore of Babylon. Your cup doth entice many a ſimple ſoule to drinke: for they doe not ſuſpect that ſuch deadly poyſon ſhould be offered in ſo goodly a cup. I beſéech God to giuegive men the wiſedome to looke what is in it before they drinke.

Pa.

What meane ye by this goodly Allegory? what is that golden cuppe which ye ſpeake of, in which ye ſay we offer ye poyſon, and deceiue the ſimple ſoules with the gaines of the cup? Can ye tell your owne meaning? Doe ye not ſpeake that which ye doe not vnderſtand your ſelfe in?

Pro.

Saint Iohn in the Reuelation doth vſe this allegory, which you ſo like a dog ſcoffe at.Reue. 17.Rev 17 He painteth out the whore of Babylon, with a golden cup in her hand full of abominations: with this ſhe hath made drunken thoſe that dwell vponupon y^e earth. For as I ſaid before, who would ſuſpect that ſo goodly a cup ſhould p. 75be full of poyſon? But what is this goldē cup ſay you, in which wee offer poyſon? This is your golden cup, the name of the Catholike Church, which ye brag of: and the name of the forefathers: this is a golden cup: how can a ſimple man once ſuſpect any euill to be in this cup? Doubtleſſe it is onelyonly your cup which deceiueth ſo many, & allureth them to drinke, and to ſucke out euen the dregs of your abominations. For ye crie Catholikes, Catholikes, the Catholike Church, the forefathers: and in this ye bring in al your trumperie, and purchaſe credit vntounto it, becauſe the Catholike Church is very honourable, and true, which name you pretend: the ancient fathers of the Catholike Church are very reuerend, whom you falſly challenge to be of your ſide. Therefore I ſay ſtill it is wiſedome to looke what is in your cup, and not to be haſtie to drinke.

Pa.

I tolde ye euen now that although I might ſay much, yet becauſe I ſee it is to little purpoſe, that I will giuegive ye ouer.

Pro.

I muſt not giuegive you ouer: for as you hauehave vttered your ſlaunders againſt the Goſpell of Chriſt, ſo you muſt giuegive me leaue to lay open ſome of thoſe abominations which you are iuſtly to be charged withall.

Pa.

It is no matter what ye ſay, I doubt not but that I ſhall be able to defend our holy Mother from all your ſpitefull accuſations. Say the worſt ye can.

p. 78Pro.

When I hauehave ſaid the worſt that I can, I ſhall yet come ſhort of the matter. For what tongue is able to expreſſe the full wickedneſſe of Babylon, the mother of whoredomes and abominations: which did in pride lift vp her ſelfe againſt God, and his trueth? and made all nations drunken with the wine of her fornication.

Pa.

I tell ye this is but to raile and ſlander, vnleſſe ye be able to make proofe of that which ye ſay: but I looke for no ſuch thing at your hands: for your ſect is wont to accuſe deepely, and to proue ſlenderly.

Pro.

I mind to ſay nothing but that which I will proue, and that more ſtrongly then wil be to your liking. Your dealing is manifeſt to all men: and your euill meaning may ſoone be eſpied, vnleſſe men will be wilfully blind. Are ye not like vntounto whores and théeues, & other malefactors, which put out the light and ſeeke darkneſſe to couer them, that they may not be ſéene, when they commit euill. What is your purpoſe when ye remoue the word of GOD from the ſight of the people, and doe as it were bury it in a ſtrange tongue? Is it not the light to guide our ſteps?Pſal. 119.Ps 119 Is it not the foode of our ſoules? What is your intent, that ye would not hauehave the people know it?

Pa.

I ſee there is nothing ſo honeſtly done, but euill men will ſuſpect it, as you compare our doings with whores and theeues, becauſe wee allow p. 79not the people to reade the ſcriptures in a knowne tongue. But I anſwere, that yee may keepe your compariſon to your ſelfe: for our wiſe anceſtors did not take the ſcriptures from the lay people, of any euill intent: but becauſe the common people did abuſe them, and gather errors out of them. It is a very dangerous thing for vnlearned men to meddle with or to reade the ſcriptures: they bee darke, and hard to be vnderſtood, eueryevery man can not gather the true ſenſe of them. You are fooles, and therefore ye are not able to iudge of the wiſedome of the fathers in our Church: you take that to be amiſſe, which is done moſt excellently.

Pro.

We are ouer ſuſpicious, for your intent is good: your honeſtie is ſuch, that ye may be truſted in the darke: ye are ſhamefull honeſt men indeede. We are but fooles, and not able to diſcerne with what wiſedome ſuch things are done. Surely wee can no ſkill of that wiſedome, when men take vponupon them to be wiſer then GOD. But let vsus ſee the wiſedome and good meaning in this thing. This it is, the common people will abuſe the Scriptures, and gather errors out of them, and therfore a dangerous caſe for thē to meddle therewith: the Scriptures are darke, they bee not able to gather the ſenſe. I know this is a great déepe point of wiſedome, among thoſe which ſauour the things of men,Matth. 16.Matt 16 and not the things of God. But trie it and it ſhall appeare to be extreme follie, and thoſe which approue p. 80thereof are very doltiſh aſſes: although for worldly wit they hauehave déepe heads, and excell a number of other men. For looke how a cunning artificer, when he ſteppeth out of his owne ſhop, and medleth with a ſcience beyond his reach, is no body: euen ſo the wiſedome of the world when it will be ſo buſie, as to controule the wiſedome of God, diſgraceth her ſelfe. God is here checked for giuing ſuch a word, it is better to remoue it away: errors, errors, doe ſpring by it. It is hard to bée vnderſtood: God might hauehave dealth more plainly. O ye blaſphemous wretches: what will ye charge God and his holie word withall: hath he in ſuch wiſe declared his bleſſed will to men, that it were better they were without it? HaueHave the ſacred Scriptures ſo little profit in them, that they bee better vnknowne then knowne? Moreouer ſee how ye reaſon: men doe abuſe the Scriptures, and gather errors of them, therefore they are to bee remoued. This reaſon is the like, men abuſe meate and drinke, and become drunkards and gluttons: therefore it were good to make a law to debarre them thoſe things. The bodie cannot liue without meate and drinke: the ſoule can not be ſaued without the word. Some doe abuſe meate and drinke, ſhall therefore all bée debarred? Some doe peruert the worde to their deſtruction, ſhall all other therefore bee depriued, and want the moſt neceſſarie vſe p. 81thereof? No, this is but a craft which yée vſe to make men afraid to ſearch the Scriptures, leaſt they ſhould eſpie you: for there euerie man may eaſily learne to iudge of your dealings. You know well enough, y^t when the people come to know the will of God (which you are loth they ſhould) then they little eſtéeme your will. Ignorance is the ſtrongeſt pillar of your religion, and as you terme it, the mother of deuotion. For ſo ſoone as men hauehave a litle knowledge of God, their zeale towards you is quenched: when they ſee once the true treaſure, they will no more of your traſh. In déed I cannot blame ye, that ye labour to put out the light, and to hold men ſtil in darknes, becauſe the light will vncouer your ſhame.

Pa.

VVhen ſhould wee come to an end, if I ſhould anſwere all your words? You confeſſe that ſome do abuſe the word, & gather errors out of it: I ſuppoſe then, that eueryevery wiſe man will grant, it were better for theſe that the Scriptures were taken from them. And who can tell which they be, vntill it bee too late? VVere it not better to worke the ſurer way, ſo that no one may fall into that danger. You care not as it ſeemeth for the loſſe of a few ſoules: but the price of the ſoule is ſo great that ye ſhould be carefull, if it were but for one. Moreouer, we do not remoue the word away, but from thoſe which are vnmeete to deale with it: we doe not ſay it were better vnknowne thē knowne: but to ſuch as will abuſe their knowledge. p. 82In good ſooth me thinketh ye ouerſhoote your ſelfe greatly, very reaſon doth leade a man to ſee that it is not a ſeemely nor fit thing for Tom carter, when he hath laid downe his whip, to take vp the bible. Let him meddle with that which he can skill of, and leaue the Scriptures to ſuch as hauehave learning to iudge of them.

Pro.

I would be very loth to kéepe ye companie, vntill ye ſhould anſwere all my words: the time will bee ſo long that if ye ſhould faſt vntill ye had done, the Pope néede not inioyne ye any further penance. A very clarklike reaſon ye make out of that which I grant: ſome doe abuſe the Scriptures, if a man could tell which they were, then it ſhould ſuffice to take them from thoſe: but becauſe it cannot bée knowne, vntill it bee too late: it is better to worke the ſurer way: that is to take them from all, and ſo ye ſhall bee ſure no one ſhall gather errors out of them. This reaſon is amplified, by the price of the ſoule, where alſo ye charge vsus not to care for the loſſe of a few ſoules. This is a great reaſon, I pray ye, if a man might aſke, what did it coſt ye?

Pa.

This is a pretie conueiance, when ye are not able to anſwere, then ye finde a way to make your ſelf merie, ye aske what it coſt me, ye ſhould firſt aske where I bought it.

Pro.

Nay, I know the chiefe market of ſuch wares is at Louaine, I néede not aſke where ye bought it. But I am ſure ye bought p. 83it too deare, although it coſt ye nothing, becauſe it was not worth the taking vp. But ye ſay I cannot anſwere ye: Yes that I can: I ſay ye are like to a great wiſe man, who hauing one ſhéepe dead of the rot, by feeding in his paſture, doth knocke all the reſt downe and deſtroyeth them, caſting them away leaſt ſome one more ſhould be infected. For becauſe ſome doe peruert the Scriptures to their own deſtruction:2. Cor. 3.2 Cor 3 and becauſe the Goſpell is the ſauour of death vntounto death, in ſome, therefore you will caſt away all the reſt with them. For what other thing doe ye, when ye take from them the food of life, and all the armour wherwith they ſhould defend themſelues againſt the ſpiritual enemie. Your reaſon were ſomewhat worth, if men could bee ſaued without the knowledge of Gods word: but becauſe they cannot, therfore ye may put it vp againe, vntill it bee better growne. For your other words, God gaue the Scriptures for all his people to reade and learne, and therefore yée are murtherers of ſoules, and arrant théeues when ye depriue the people of God of the waters of life, and in ſtead thereof giuegive them the ſtinking waters of your owne inuentions. And howſoeuer it pleaſeth you to eſtéeme of the common people (whom ye doe in diſdaine ſet forth by Tom Carter) and thinke it no reaſon to lay downe the whip, and to take vp the Bible: yet you muſt know they are the p. 82duplicate page p. 83duplicate page p. 84people of GOD, redéemed by the blood of his ſonne, vntounto whom the Goſpell doth belong, and they hauehave as great intereſt and full right in it as any other: GOD hath promiſed to teach it them, and alſo doth teach it them. You are like the Scribes and Phariſies, which cō demned thoſe which followed Chriſt, becauſe they were of the common people: Doe any of the Princes (ſay they) or of the Phariſies beléeue in him?Iohn 7.John 7 But this multitude which know not the law is accurſed. Thoſe proude Prelates thought the people had no vnderſtā ding of Gods word, when they vnderſtood it better then they: euen ſo it ſhall be found, that many a poore plowman hath more right and ſincere knowledge of Gods word, then all your horned Biſhops and great Rabbines.

Pa.

Truly I cannot but marueile to heare ye: cannot the people bee ſaued without the Scriptures bee in their hands? Can they not doe well without the knowledge of Gods word? Is it not enough for them to beleeue in Chriſt, and to liue vprightly? Muſt they needs meddle with y^t which is ſo far aboue their reach? See I pray ye, what caſe you ſet the people in: ye ſhut thē out from ſaluation, when ye teach that they cannot bee ſaued without the knowledge of Gods word. For they be not able to know the word. Let the beſt inſtructed of your common people come for to defend their faith, will they be able to anſwer ſuch reaſons, as ſome can bring againſt thē? if not, how do p. 85they know they hold the trueth? that which they cannot reach vntounto, to perceiue may be the trueth for ought that they know. Therfore I ſay ſtill, that the holy Mother hath done wel and wiſely to take the Scriptures out of the hands of lay men. You muſt proue that the common people are commanded to reade and ſtudie the Scriptures: which ye ſhall neuer be able for to doe.

Pro.

No man can bee ſaued without faith: faith cannot be without the word: for S. Paul faith, Faith doth come by hearing,Rom. 10.Rom 10 & hearing by the word. How ſhould a mā beléeue, before he doth know what to beléeue?Iohn 3.John 3 God doth giuegive teſtimony of his ſonne, he that beléeueth that teſtimony, he doth ſeale y^t God is true. He that wil beléeue, muſt know what and how to beléeue: & therefore of neceſſity, that he hauehave the knowledge of y^e word of God. This doth proue how fooliſh you are, whē ye aſke if it be not enough for them to beléeue in Chriſt, & to liue vprightly? as no wiſe mā doth doubt but that this is enough: ſo there is no foole almoſt, but a man may make him ſée, y^t this can in no wiſe be without the knowledge of the word. Is it not the word which conuerteth y^e ſoule? Is it not the word which lightneth the eyes, and giueth wiſedome to the ſimple? Is it not y^e word which doth purifie?Pſal. 19. Iohn 15. Iohn 8.Ps 19John 15John 8 Is not y^e word the light to guide our ſteps? do not they which are of God heare the word of God? Is it not ſaid, Bleſſed are they which heare y^e word of God, & kéep it? p. 86Is not the man pronounced bleſſed,Pſal. 1.Ps 1 which doth meditate in the law of the Lord day and night? O yee miſerable wretches, what whores faces hauehave you put on, that are not aſhamed to ſpeake directly contrary vntounto God. Is it not aboue their reach to beléeue and to obey God? and yet is it aboue their reach to know what to beléeue, and what is the will and pleaſure of God, which they are to obey? 1Can ſubiects obey their Prince and not know the lawes? Or, doe Princes make lawes, and then kéepe them ſecret? If not, wherefore ſhould y^e lawes of the king of kings be ſecrets? Can any ſeruant doe the will of his maſter, and not know what it is? But you hauehave an other ſtout argument to proue that the ſcriptures are aboue the reach of the vnlearned, and therefore he is not to meddle with them? he can neuer come to any certaintie of knowledge by them: for let ſome man of great learning come and reaſon with him, and he may make ſundry reaſons which the other cannot anſwere: which you take to be a plaine proofe that his knowledge is not certaine, but ſuch as he may be driuen from. Alas what ſtuffe here is to reaſon withall againſt the trueth: ſuch a cauiller as you may méete with ſome ſimple plaine man riding vpō his horſe, which he doth perfectly know to be his owne, and make ſuch Sophiſticall reaſons to proue the horſe not to be his, or not to be an horſe, but a p. 87dog, that the ſimple man cannot anſwere: yet neuertheleſſe, becauſe he is ſure it is a horſe, and his owne, & not a dog, the other may make many reaſons which he vnderſtādeth not how to auoide: notwithſtanding, they cannot once bring him in doubt, or to goe from that which he knoweth. Euen ſo al the ſubtil cauillations of the diuel and his miniſters, when they come againſt the faith and knowledge of a godlie ſimple man, which is grounded in the word of God, cannot once moue him: the déepe fetches and ſubtilties may make him muſe, but yet becauſe he doth certainly know the trueth, he doth not giuegive ouer that: he hath felt the power of the word of God in himſelfe, and therfore is out of doubt: it hath done that in him which cannot be wrought but by GOD. Vnſtable ſoules may be beguiled: for they hauehave not felt the power of godlines. Yée would hauehave mée proue that God commaundeth the vnlearned men to ſtudie and exerciſe themſelues in the Scriptures: I am aſhamed to heare ye doubt of that matter.

Pa.

If ye be aſhamed to hauehave that doubted of, then I trow ye will be aſhamed not to proue it.

Pro.

I would you would be alſo aſhamed of your wilfull blindneſſe, and ſée, when things are manifeſtly proued. Did not God vtter his word by Moſes vntounto the Iſraelites, both men and women? Did he not giuegive it them in their owne tongue? Did he not charge them by Moſes, p. 86duplicate page p. 87duplicate page p. 88euen the lay people,Deut. 6. and 11.Deut 6 that they ſhould put his words vponupon their heart, and vponupon their ſoule: and binde them for a ſigne vponupon their hands: and teach them their children: to talke of thē, as they ſat in the houſe, as they walked by the way, when they did lie downe, and when they did riſe vp?Hoſh. 4. Are not the people blamed both among the Iewes, and alſo in the time of the Goſpell, for their ignorance and dulnes? Are they not exhorted to grow in knowledge and vnderſtanding eueryevery where?Heb. 5.Heb 5 Did not Chriſt and all his Apoſtles trauell night and day to bring the people to vnderſtanding?2. Pet. 3.2 Pet 3 Doe not the Apoſtles pray that they might be filled and abound in all knowledge?Coloſ. 1.Col 1 Did they not giuegive great charge vntounto other to teach and féede the flocke diligently?Philip. 1.Phil 1 Acts 20. 2. Tim. 4.Acts 202 Tim 4Did they not open all the counſels of God vntounto the people? Will your holy mother the whore of Babylon bee wiſer then all theſe? Did all theſe trauell in vaine? Did Paul fooliſhly when he commaunded that men ſhould not ſpeake in the Church in a ſtrange language,1. Cor. 14.1 Cor 14 vnleſſe it were interpreted, that ſo the reſt might bee edified? For ſhame giuegive ouer, and confeſſe that your great whore hath done as fowle villanie to the Church of God as could bee, in taking from thē the word of life, and putting out the light, to the ende that ſhe might play the whore, and commit all her abominations in the darke, where none ſhould eſpie them. The light doth now ſhine p. 89ſo cléere, that ſhe ſhall neuer bee able to hide her ſelfe any more, nor to couer her ſhame: vnleſſe it bee among thoſe Night-birdes, ſuch as you are, which cannot abide the light.

Pa.

VVould yee make men beleeue that it is commaunded as a thing ſo neceſſarie, and profitable, when we ſee what followeth ſince the ſcriptures hauehave been opened vntounto the people? VVhat a multitude of ſects and diuiſions, and quarrels hauehave riſen? VVhence commeth all this, but that holy things are giuen to dogs, Matth. 7.Matt 7and precious pearles are caſt before ſwine? The vnholy and vnpure, and ſinfull men doe as it were with filthie vnwaſhed hands, handle the heauenly myſteries, and each man doeth gather for his turne that which liketh himſelfe: and then they are puffed vp, and prattle they know not what. I wiſſe, I wiſſe, they might bee better occupied, then to meddle with the word of God, which ſhould not be touched but with great reuerence: now eueryevery one will bee pratling of it, euen vponupon their ale-bench. Wherefore did Chriſt ſpeake in parables, Luke 8. Matth. 23.Luke 8Matt 23and tolde the Apoſtles, that to them it did belong to know the myſteries of the kingdome of God, but to the reſt in parables, that they might ſee and not ſee? Doubtleſſe, as I ſayd before, there is great cauſe why the ſcriptures ſhould not be knowne of the people. When they did not know them, they agreed and went all one way: now hee is of this ſect, hee is of that ſect, he ſayth this is trueth, p. 90another ſaith that: a man cannot tell which way to turne him. Your learned men alſo themſelues are at warre, one againſt another, one confuting another, in their ſermons, in their writings: alas, muſt it not then much more follow among the vnlearned people. If the learned cannot vnderſtād the Scriptures, how ſhall they which hauehave no learning? O how well were our forefathers which knew none of all this. I would the reading of the Scriptures did make men no worſe thē they were: they had good ſoules to Godward, now men are ſtarke nought.

Pro.

The great ſubtiltie of the diuell, to draw men away from reading the Scriptures, appeareth in ye: ye would proue it not only a thing vnneceſſarie to hauehave them knowne, but alſo very euill. This yée proue by the effects which follow, as diuiſions and quarrels, and ſects: by the ſame reaſon ye may proue, that it had béen good neuer to hauehave heard of Chriſt, about whom there hauehave béen ſo many quarrels in the world.Eſay 28. 2. Pet. 1.Isa 282 Pet 1 Many doe ſtumble at him, he is the rocke of offence vntounto many: but the fault is in men and not in him. Euen ſo the wicked which abuſe the Goſpell, although they be neuer ſo many, yet muſt not cauſe the ſmall number of Gods elect, to be depriued of their right, and to be ſpoyled of their comfort. So ſoone as the Goſpell appeareth, the diuell laboureth by his inſtruments to bring an infamie vponupon it, and to make men beléeue it is naught: for it p. 91is he which raiſeth vp ſects and errors, Gods word is not the cauſe. He would by y^t meanes bring men into a maze, that they ſhould not know which way to turne them. But you ſay the cauſe is that holy things are giuē to dogs, and precious pearles are caſt before ſwine. Ye reaſon euen like your forefathers the proude Phariſies, which took themſelues to be ſo holy, that they were not to bee taught: and ſo wiſe & ſkilfull, that they regarded not others. The multitude were accurſed:Iohn 9.John 9 the blind mā he was altogether borne in ſinne: you wretches count them dogs and ſwine: and your ſelues holie: whereas your ſelues hauehave plaied the notable vilaines, and hauehave dealt vnreuerētly with the word of God.Matth. 9.Matt 9 The Phariſies blamed Chriſt that he did eate with Publicanes & ſinners: he anſwered, y^t he came not to call the righteous,Luke 5.Luke 5 but ſinners to repentance. You ſay, ſinfull mē are permitted to deale with the ſcriptures: we anſwere, the more ſinful, the greater néed they hauehave to know y^e ſcriptures, becauſe they muſt reforme them, and cure them: other meanes for the ſinners there are none.Pſal. 119.Ps 119 Wherewithall (ſaith the Prophet) ſhall a young man clenſe his waies? euen by taking héed thereto according to thy word. Ye reaſon euen as handſomly, as if a man ſhould count it vnméet for thoſe to come to the water to waſh them which are all myred: or if a man ſhould be out of his way in the darke, let him hauehave no light, becauſe he p. 92is out of his way.Matth. 12.Matt 12 O yee wicked Phariſies, yée ſhut vp the kingdome of God before men, yée neither enter your ſelues, neither do ye ſuffer thoſe which would. Let thouſand thouſands, and millians of thouſands, deale vndiſcréetlie and wickedly with the word, gather all kinde of diueliſh errors out of it, by peruerting it, be puffed vp with their knowledge, & make but a pratling thereof: yet this muſt not let, but that if God had but ten choſen in the world, his counſels muſt be opened vntounto them. Men abuſe the word when they talke vnreuerently of it, therefore you ſay it is to bee remoued: théeues and quarrellers doe fight, rob, and kill with their weapons, & therefore the true men muſt caſt them away. Doe ye not know that we are commanded for to meditate and talk of the holy ſcriptures, night and day: but yet reuerently? Is not the word of God called the ſword of the ſpirit,Epheſ. 6.Eph 6 with which wee muſt fight againſt the diuell? Doth not Chriſt our captaine giuegive vsus example,Matth. 4.Matt 4 when he ſtill alleageth the ſcriptures againſt him? How childiſh are ye in alleadging this that Chriſt did ſpeake in parables: and ſaid it was giuen to the diſciples to knowe the myſteries of the kingdome of God, but to the reſt in parables: that in ſeeing they might not ſee? I pray ye were they the vnlearned only of whom he ſpeaketh? Were they not the great clarkes, the Scribes and Phariſies, which did ſee & not perceiue, & heare p. 93and not vnderſtand? Yea it is to be vnderſtood of all the reprobate, both the learned and vnlearned. As on the other ſide, the myſteries of the kingdome of GOD are reueiled to ſimple ones:Matth. 11.Matt 11 I thanke thée O father (ſaith Chriſt) Lord of heauen and earth, that thou haſt hid theſe things from the wiſe & prudent, and haſt opened them vntounto babes. Doe ye not ſée in the Goſpell, how our Sauiour Chriſt did publiſh the Goſpell, & inſtruct the multitude? Is it not teſtified, that publicanes and ſinners did imbrace the ſame, whē the wiſe ones deſpiſed the counſel of God? Doth not Chriſt tell thē that publicanes & harlots ſhould go before them into the kingdom of God?Luke 7. Matth. 21.Luke 7Matt 21 You ſay they went all one way when they knew not the ſcriptures. Doubtles the heathen men went all one way, but it was no good way, for it was to deſtruction: euen ſo as many as did not (as S. Paul ſaith) receiue the louelove of the trueth that they might be ſaued,2. Theſſ. …. God did ſend thē ſtrong deluſiō to beléeue lies, & ſo they were damned. Theſe were not all our forefathers, for God alwaies ſhewed his trueth to his ſeruants. Ye ſay the people cannot vnderſtand the ſcriptures, whē as y^e learned doe not, but are ſet one againſt an other, & one doth confute another: ye ſhould conclude of this, that becauſe learned men doe raiſe vp errors, aſwell as the vnlearned, therefore the ſcriptures ought to be taken away frō them alſo, and ſo ye ſhould make ſure worke. p. 94Let God ſpeake no more, vnleſſe he can do better: let the Pope onelyonly vtter his minde, and heare him, for he will tell a plaine tale.

Pa.

This is euen like all your ſchiſmatikes, and heretikes, for all of ye doe allow errors, quarrels, and contentions. Ye thinke it a ſmall matter to hauehave the world filled and ſet vponupon an vprore with them, ye doe euen glorie in them, as though there could be no trueth without them. Oh ſay you, it is a certaine and infallible proofe, that ours is the true Goſpell, that ſo great troubles, and ſundrie ſects do follow it. Thus ye are not aſhamed to confeſſe the euil fruits of your doctrine: ſo that others need not to ſpeake thereof. Many other ſuch like ſpeeches ye vtter.

Pro.

I am no liker thoſe which imbrace the trueth, then ye are like your father, not the father of trueth, but of lyes: for let a man conuict ye a thouſand times in your ſayings, yet ye will not ſticke to lie and ſlaunder. Where can ye euer ſhew, that any true profeſſor of the Goſpell doth allow errors, quarrels, & contentions? Becauſe we ſay that the ſcriptures muſt not bee taken from the people, although neuer ſo many errors and ſchiſmes do follow: can ye gather thereof that we allow the ſame? no, we deteſt and abhorre from the bottome of our hearts ſuch trecherie of the diuell, and his wicked inſtruments. We count it a lamentable thing, to ſee the malice of the diuell and of the wicked world to bee ſo great, y^t ſo ſoone p. 95as euer Chriſt and his Goſpell appeare, they bend all their might againſt it, ſeeking all meanes to quench the light thereof: and vtterly to baniſh it. From hence doe ſpring all vprores and tumults in the Church. We affirme indéede that this is a proofe that it is the Goſpell of Chriſt, that the wicked world cannot abide it: if it were of y^e world, the world would louelove his owne: but becauſe it is not of the world, therefore the prince of the world with all the power and armies that hee can make, doth riſe vp againſt it: for Satan will not bee diſpoſſeſſed of his hold without great ſtur. The ſtrong man armed which kéepeth his houſe,Matth. 12.Matt 12 muſt firſt be bound before his houſe cā be ſpoyled. When there ſhall be no diuell, no wicked ones, no kingdome ſet vp againſt the kingdom of God, whē Chriſt ſhall hauehave none enemies: then the Goſpell may come foorth in peace, without troubles, tumults, ſects, errors, and ſuch like. But ſo long as all thoſe do remaine, wherefore ſhould the Goſpell loſe any glorie? becauſe theſe things follow it: nay, why ſhuld it not bee ſo much the more glorious, that it doth breake through all theſe things, and by it Chriſt doth rule in the midſt of his enemies? When the Prophet foretolde, that the ſtone which the builders refuſed,Pſal. 110.Ps 110 was become the head of the corner: he addeth,Pſal. 118.Ps 118 this is the Lords doing, and it is marueilous in our eyes. So this is the Lords doing, and it is moſt marueilous p. 96in our eyes, that ſo many cruell perſecutions doe follow the Goſpell, and yet cannot baniſh it: ſo many heapes, or rather floods of monſtrous errors do euen as it were flow ouer it, to couer it, to corrupt it, to aboliſh it: and yet doth ſtill breake forth, as bright and pure as before. So ſoone as Chriſt was borne, perſecution aroſe, and the children were cruelly murthered. Paul and the reſt of the Apoſtles do not ſo ſoone go foorth to preach,Matth. 2.Matt 2 but the falſe prophets are at their héeles. Ceaſe therfore ye wicked wretches, to blaſpheme Chriſt and his Goſpell, becauſe ſuch things follow: they bée not the fruits of the Goſpell, nor they doe not ſpring out of it, but they be the enemies thereof, which do alwaies purſue it. Make a reconciliation betwéene Chriſt and the diuell, if yée will hauehave the Goſpell go quietly. Now let a wiſe man way this reaſon, the word of God, which is y^e word of ſaluation, of life, of grace, our light, our ſhield, the foode of our ſoules, can not be ſet forth, but there follow troubles, and errors, therfore it is good to kéepe it vnknowne, and not to let the people hauehave any ſight thereof. All the world may ſee, that ye hauehave conſpired with the diuell, & are become inſtruments to fulfill his deſire: for he couereth by thoſe euils to baniſh the trueth, and to holde men in blindnes, and all kinde of errors which they bée by nature full of, and ſo to bring all to hell: and you performe his will, in crying out againſt p. 97the ſacred Scriptures, and ſeeking to burie them.

Pa.

Nay, you hauehave conſulted with the diuell, like vnnaturall children, to ſeeke the ouerthrow of your mother the holy Church, and to diſhonour the vicar of Chriſt.

Pro.

We bring all our conſultation out of Gods holy word for the vpholding and maintaining of our holy mother, the true Catholike Church and ſpouſe of Chriſt, againſt the filthie whore of Babylon, and againſt Antichriſt the great vicar of hell.

Pa.

I may ſay the like againſt your ſide, and ſo we may play at Tenice vntill we bee both wearie, and part as wiſe as we began.

Pro.

I ſay nothing againſt yout but that which the word of GOD doth plainly ſhew. You hauehave no colour to ſay the like againſt vsus, ſauing that your ſhameles faces hauehave made ye bolde to ſpeake all kinde of lyes.

Pa.

Great brags ye make of prouing out of the Scriptures. Where doe the Scriptures tell ye, that the Biſhop of Rome is Antichriſt? You can make the Scriptures ſerue for your turne in any matter whatſoeuer.

Pro.

Wée brag no more of the Scriptures, then that which is manifeſtlie prooued by them: we make them ſerue none other turne, then the Lorde hath appoynted them for. The Scriptures doe not in flat ſpeeches ſay that the Pope, or the Biſhop of Rome is p. 98Antichriſt: yet neuertheleſſe they ſet a brand vponupon his forehead, and deſcribe him in ſuch ſort, that eueryevery man which hath eyes may eaſily know him: and as perfectly know him to be Antichriſt, as a man may know an egge to be an egge.

Pa.

I hauehave read the Scriptures, and know what they ſpeake concerning Antichriſt, and yet could neuer finde that brand which you ſpeake of, nor ſuch a deſcription as ſhould paint out the Pope to be Antichriſt. You are marueilous fellowes, you can make ſomewhat of nothing: you are ſo cunning that ye can draw water out of a flint.

Pro.

You hauehave read the Scriptures, and ſo hauehave your fellowes, euen all the Popiſh ſhauelings: and ye know they ſpeake of Antichriſt, whom you beléeue ſhal come: you cannot find that brand or marke, or ſuch a deſcription of Antichriſt, as ſhould belong to the Pope: and that cauſeth ye to pronounce, that wee make ſomewhat of nothing, &c. becauſe it is not like that ſo many great Cardinals, Biſhops, Abbots, Monkes and Friers ſhould reade and reade againe in the Scriptures, and not ſée the Pope to be Antichriſt, if he be ſo marked, that he may eaſily bee knowne. This may ſeeme ſtrange, but I tell yée it is no marueile, for yée are all blinde as béetles. The Scribes, the Phariſies, the Sadduces, and all the learned among the Iewes did reade Moſes & the Prophets, and ſtudied them deuoutly: looked for p. 99the Meſſias which was promiſed and deſcribed there: and yet when he came, they were ſo farre off from knowing him, that they did kill him, and fulfilled the voyces of the Prophets: euen ſo fareth it with you, ye reade what maner of one Antichriſt ſhould be, and what he ſhould doe, and yet ye are ſo blinde, that ye fulfill it, in helping him to murther the Saints. The Iewes could not know Chriſt, becauſe they looked for a trim Chriſt, and he came baſe and poore. You hauehave alſo deuiſed a popiſh fable of Antichriſt, which doth ſo ſticke in your heads, that ye cannot ſée the notes and marks of the very Antichriſt indéede.

Pa.

Goe to, goe to, let vsus ſee your great skill, and what your ſcriptures will be whereby ye will ſhew this thing. I feare me we ſhall hauehave but ſlender concluſions.

Pro.

When ye hauehave tried them, then giuegive iudgement, and ſo although yee ſhould iudge falſly, yet yee ſhall not bee altogether ſo raſh. Will ye confeſſe that S. Paul 2. Theſſ. 2. and S. Iohn in the Reuelation doe deſcribe and ſet forth Antichriſt?

Pa.

That I will: for I ſuppoſe no man will denie it: but what are ye the better? that which S. Paul doth ſpeake, and that which Saint Iohn hath written, as concerning Antichriſt, may more fitly be applied to you, then to vsus.

Pro.

If it may as fitly be applied to vsus as to you: nay I will ſay further, if it may be applied p. 100to any but to you, let vsus be counted heretikes.

Pa.

Saint Paul ſayth, that the day of the Lord ſhould not come, except there came firſt an apoſtaſie, or falling away. Doth not this touch you? Let al men iudge who are fallen away, we, or you? Are we fallen from you, or you from vsus? HaueHave we made the departing, or hauehave you? Our Church hath alwaies ſtood faſt and vnmoueable, you hauehave rent your ſelues from vsus: by what reaſon can any man ſay, that they hauehave made the apoſtaſie which hauehave alwaies, and do ſtill keepe their ſtanding: and not rather thoſe which are gone out from vsus: to fulfill that which S. Iohn ſaith, 1. Iohn 2.1 John 2They went out from vsus, becauſe they were not of vsus.

Pro.

You would ſhift this thing from your ſelues, and lay it vponupon vsus: but it cleaueth ſo faſt to your hands that it will not off. Ye goe about by a ſubtill cauillation to bléere the eyes of ſimple men. Wee confeſſe wee hauehave made the departure from you, and not you from vsus, becauſe you had departed from the trueth, and true Church, and had led vsus out of the way of trueth, vntounto which wée are now agayne by Gods gracious goodneſſe returned. You ſay your Church hath alwaies ſtoode ſtedfaſt and vnmoueable, and therefore hath not made the departing. It is true, if wee reſpect place, and ſucceſſion of Biſhops: but what doth that help ye, when ye are departed from the faith, which thing ye might and hauehave done without changing your place and roomes? The high prieſts, p. 101Scribes and Phariſies among the Iewes had their ſucceſſion and place longer then you, and yet Chriſt and his Apoſtles did depart from them, and were neither heretikes nor ſchiſmatikes. And why, becauſe they had firſt departed from the truth? Ye muſt not ſtand vpō one clauſe, but take that which doth follow with it. This falling away ſhal be by the man of ſinne, the ſonne of perdition, who was to bee reuealed: which is an aduerſary, and exalteth himſelf aboue al that is called God, or that hath imperiall maieſtie, ſo that he ſitteth as God in the temple of God, boaſting or ſhewing himſelfe to be God. This is one ſentence which doth ſet the brand in the forehead of your Pope: the ſcarre whereof will euidently appeare, when ye hauehave made as fine worke as ye can.

Pa.

Now ye are come vntounto the matter, I trow ye will make it plaine, and out of all doubt. This is ſpoken indeede of Antichriſt: but where will ye finde one iot of it in the Biſhop of Rome? Where will ye finde that euer he hath exalted himſelfe aboue all that is called God, or that is worſhipped? which word you tranſlate at your pleaſure otherwiſe thē euer I heard it before, y^t which hath imperial maieſtie. Ye muſt proue that the Pope hath exalted himſelf aboue God, or els ye hauehave ſlandered & blaſphemed him. Such an one ſhal Antichriſt be

Pro.

This is all fulfilled by the Pope, as I will ſhew, I am not to proue that he hath exalted himſelfe aboue God: but that hée hath p. 102exalted himſelfe aboue all that is called God.Pſalm. 82.Ps 82 The kings of the earth are that which is called God: for the Scripture ſaith, they are called Gods.Iohn 10.John 10 And becauſe ſebaſma, which is tranſlated, that which is worſhipped: is in the New Teſtament giuen to the Emperors of Rome, I tranſlate it, that which hath imperiall maieſtie or dignitie. Ye may ſee, that not onelyonly among the prophane writers, the epithite ſebaſtos is giuen to the Emperours, but alſo in the 27. of the Acts of the Apoſtles S. Luke ſaith, that S. Paul was deliuered to a captaine, ſpires ſebaſtes, of the band of Auguſtus. Alſo likewiſe Act. 25. Feſtus ſaith that Paul had appealed to Sebaſton, that is, to Auguſtus. Now the words of S. Paul ſetting forth the man of ſinne, are cléerely fulfilled in the Pope, who hath bin, as all men know, exalted ſo high aboue kings and Emperours, that they held his ſtirrops, when he went to horſebacke. There hath béen none Lord ouer kings and Emperours, but the Romane Biſhop. None exalted to that dignitie, but the Italian Prieſt.

Pa.

The Apoſtle ſaith, all that is called God, and therefore it is to bee vnderſtood of God himſelfe: for is not he called God? There is cauſe why the Pope ſhould be aboue all the kings and Emperours, that doth not proue him to be the man of ſinne. He hath that of right, becauſe he is Chriſts Vicar.

Pro.

The Apoſtle doth vſe this ſpéech to p. 103put difference betwéen in déed, and that which is called God, and hath but that high title, and is not God in déede: God is more then called God, for he is very God indéed. This thing is alſo manifeſt when the Apoſtle in the next words riſing by degrées, ſaith, that hee ſitteth in the temple of God, ſhewing himſelfe that he is God. In this laſt and higheſt he doth but ſet him forth, to chalenge to himſelfe to bée equall with GOD. Where ye ſay it doth belong of right to the Pope to bee aboue all kings; becauſe he is the Vicar of Chriſt, I will anſwer that anon in another matter.

Pa.

I muſt let ye hauehave your ſaying, there is no remedie: but doth the Biſhop of Rome then ſit in the temple of God, boaſting himſelfe that hee is God? I marueile what gloſe ye can make to perſwade the people that the Pope doth this. Who euer can ſhew that the Biſhop of Rome doth not take himſelfe to be a man? If he take himſelfe to be a man, doth he then boaſt himſelfe to be God? For ſhame leaue your ſlandering, and finde ſome other to aſcribe this name Antichriſt vntounto, for to the holy father it doth not belong.

Pro.

Ye muſt néeds let me hauehave my ſaying, when it is ſo manifeſt truth that ye cannot tel which way to cauill againſt it. The Biſhop of Rome doth ſit in the temple of God, ſhewing himſelfe that he is God. Ye néede not maruell, nor there néedeth no gloſing to perſwade the people in this poynt. It is rather greatly to be p. 104wondred how men ſhould bee ſo blinde as not to know this great monſter, ſéeing the holie Ghoſt doth ſo liuely paint him forth in his colours. The man of ſin muſt not be a forenner: for the Apoſtle ſheweth, that he ſhuld hauehave his ſeate in the temple of God. This cannot bee vnderſtood of the materiall temple in Ieruſalem, for that was vtterly deſtroyed ſhortly after Chriſt. But it is meant of the true temple of God, which is his Church. In this temple ſitteth not the Turke, nor yet the Iew, or any Pagan, doth here raigne: but the Pope hath long time had his royall throne ſet vp in this temple. No man can ſay y^e Turke, or any of the forenamed is Antichriſt: for wee muſt not goe out of Chriſtendome to ſéeke him, but find him we muſt ſet vp in y^e very temple of God. Al the Papiſts in y^e world ſhall neuer be able to ſhew any other in the church, beſides the Pope vntounto whom they may apply this deſcriptiō. Where hath there euer béen any in the temple of God, (which of neceſſitie is here takē for the church) exalted aboue all that is called God, beſide the Biſhop of Rome. I pray God open the eyes of the ignorant people whom ye ſeduce, that they may ſee Antichriſt and forſake him.

Pa.

O how you would triumph, if yee had any great matter of your ſide: when ye brag ſo much of nothing. VVhat if I ſhould tell ye that the Antichriſt which S. Paul doth deſcribe, is not yet riſen? What can ye ſay? muſt the Pope needes be he, becauſe p. 105he hath the higheſt ſeate in the Church? Whē ye hauehave proued that he boaſteth himſelfe to bee God then ye ſhall ſay ſomewhat.

Pro.

Where the word of God goeth directly againſt ye, there ye make no account of it at all, ſuch bolde beaſts yee are to call it nothing. But what if ye ſhould tell vsus that Antichriſt is not yet come, alas poore fooliſh papiſt? What if a Iew ſhould tell vsus that Chriſt is not yet come, ſhall we beléeue him? Wee know he is already come, & hath fulfilled all things which were written of him in the Prophets. Shall we be ſo fooliſh, with y^e Iewes, as to wait for another? Likewiſe, what if a Papiſt tel vsus that great Antichriſt, which y^e ſcripture doth ſpeak of, is not yet come? ſhall we bee ſo mad, when we ſee that the Romiſh Biſhop and his clergy, hauehave fulfilled all thoſe things which S. Paul and S. Iohn in the Reuelation hauehave written of him, as to gape after another? The Pope muſt néedes bee bee, not ſimply becauſe he hath the higheſt ſeat in the Church, but becauſe he hath ſo high a ſeat in the Church, as God neuer appointed to any. Antichriſt ſhould be y^e higheſt of all, where will ye finde any that was aboue the Pope, or that euer did chalenge ſuch authoritie as he had for certaine hundreth yeares? But ye ſay when I hauehave proued that the Pope doth boaſt himſelfe to be God, then I ſhall ſay ſomewhat. It is indéede ſuch a ſomewhat, as may of it ſelfe ſuffice if there were no more, p. 106to cauſe all wiſe men to ſee that he is the man of ſinne, and vtterly to renounce him.

Pa.

When ye hauehave done that, I alſo will recant and forſake him: becauſe I am ſure the ſpirit of the diuell is in that man, which maketh himſelfe God: and ſo I dare promiſe for all that be of our ſide.

Pro.

Ye make a double promiſe, one for your ſelfe, and another for your fellowes, that if the Pope can be proued to hauehave boaſted or ſhewed himſelfe to be God, ye will recant and forſake him. But I am ſure yee promiſe much more then ye can performe: I cannot truſt y^t which ye make for your ſelf, much leſſe, when ye promiſe for all that be on your ſide. Ye are blinded and hardened, as the Scribes and Phariſies were: they ſaid, if he bee Chriſt let him come downe from the croſſe and wee will beléeue in him.Matth. 27.Matt 27 Could they, or would they hauehave beléeued in him if he had come downe from the croſſe? Why then did they not beléeue when he was riſen from the dead, which was a thing farre greater then to come downe from the croſſe? When I ſée ye recant I will beléeue it, otherwiſe I will not, becauſe there is a great number of ye which doe wrangle, and cauill, & ſéeke ſhifts againſt thoſe things, which your conſciences do tell ye are true: ſo that ye do willingly and wilfully blinde your ſelues, and ſo blind others. And thus while ye go about to deceiue others, ye are deceiued. But let vsus come to the matter. It may be ye looke that I ſhould go about p. 107to proue that the Pope hath taken vponupon him to be called God, or to bee taken for God, and not man: I doe not meane ſo.

Pa.

No, ye cānot tell what ye meane: I thought this would be the end, now ye will not goe about to proue that the Pope would bee called God, or be taken not to be a man. This is the ſleight of ye all, to make great crakes, and when ye are to come to your proofe, then to winde out. I may keepe my promiſe well enough: you hauehave releaſed me of it: I would like it well if ye would confeſſe plainlie, and ſhame the diuell, that ye hauehave made promiſe of more then ye are able to doe: and that ye hauehave done great iniurie vntounto the holy father, and hauehave ſlandered him.

Pro.

I hauehave done euen as much iniurie to the holy father, and hauehave ſlaundered him euen as much, as a man doth ſlaunder and iniurie the diuell, when he ſaith, he is the father of lyes. I ſhould not ſhame the diuell in retracting that which I hauehave ſaid, and by ſaying that I hauehave promiſed more then I am able to doe: but I ſhould pleaſe him very well. For although his owne credit is ſo far ſpent, that he ſhould vtterly loſe his labour in ſéeking to recouer it: yet he ſéeketh to vphold the credit and eſtimation of his vicar, & by that meanes doth maintaine his kingdome. I hauehave vſed no ſleight, nor am gone from ought y^t I did promiſe to proue. For doth it follow that becauſe the Pope doth confeſſe he is a man, and taketh not the name p. 108of God, therfore he doth not boaſt himſelf to be God. You are a very ſimple Logitian, which from deniall of ſome part, wil deny the whole.

Pa.

What is the whole if this be not, neither to take the name, nor yet to eſteeme himſelfe to bee the thing. Neither to bee called God, nor yet to thinke himſelfe to be God. If ye can ſhew any other way whereby hee may ſhew himſelfe to bee God, let me heare it.

Pro.

He doth ſit in the temple of God, boaſting himſelfe that he is God: when he challengeth to himſelfe the power & authoritie which doth belong onelyonly to God, and to no creature, this power he hath vſurped many waies. Tell me, is not this to boaſt himſelfe to be God?

Pa.

I grant indeed that whoſoeuer doth challenge the power and authoritie to himſelfe which doth belong to God onelyonly, doth make himſelfe God. But what are ye the neerer for this, ſo long as ye ſhall neuer bee able to ſhew any way, whereby the Pope hath vſurped any ſuch power, although ye ſay hee hath done it many waies: hee hath his power giuen him of God, and yet neuer the power to be as God.

Pro.

I might with trauell make a large diſcourſe with many proues, to ſhew that he hath vſurped the higheſt authoritie: but I will contēt my ſelf to ſhew it in ſome things, which are knowne very well euen vntounto the ſimple. Is not God onelyonly Lord ouer our faith? and ruler ouer our conſciences to binde the ſame? Hath p. 109not God onelyonly power to forgiue ſinnes? To ſhut heauen, and to open hell, to ſaue and to deſtroy? Is not God the onelyonly lawgiuer? is not Chriſt our onelyonly Doctor? how then can the Biſhop of Rome challenge theſe things to himſelfe, and yet not ſhew himſelfe that he is GOD? If this be not much more to make himſelfe GOD, when hée taketh vponupon him Gods power then to take the name, let al men iudge.

Pa.

The Pope doth take no Lordſhip ouer the conſcience, nor doth not binde them further then he hath authoritie giuen him. The lawes which he maketh are made by the holy Ghoſt which is in him, and therefore there is but one lawgiuer. For ye may euen as well ſay, Moſes gaue lawes, therefore there is more then one lawgiuer: for looke how he gaue lawes ſo doth the Pope. Hereby eueryevery man may ſee that ye reaſon very ſtrongly, when by making lawes yee would proue an equalitie with God, then all the Apoſtles and Prophets were equall with God. And ſo I may ſay for the reſt.

Pro.

God neuer gaue any ſuch authoritie to any man: If the Pope had it giuen him, it was by the Dragon, as S. Iohn ſayth,Reuel. 13.Rev 13 which gaue him his ſeate, and great authoritie. Ye ſay I reaſon ſtrongly, when I ſay, the Pope doth make lawes, to binde mens conſciences, therfore the Pope maketh himſelfe God: and likewiſe maketh that there is more then one lawgiuer. For ſay you, by this reaſon Moſes, p. 110all the Apoſtles and Prophets ſhould be equall with God: becauſe they gaue lawes. But as they did it by the holy Ghoſt, ſo doth the Pope: and ſo God is ſtill the onelyonly law-giuer. Thus ye would bleare the eyes of the ignorant, to make them beléeue that the Pope doth make lawes as Moſes did. But I will ſhew a difference: Moſes gaue no lawes nor any of the Apoſtles, but ſuch as they receiued from GOD. They neuer challenged authoritie for to make any law contrary to any part of the word of God: nor to abrogate any of the lawes of God. For S. Paul ſaith,Galath. 1. y^t if he or an Angell frō heauen ſhould preach any other Goſpell then that he had preached, let him be accurſed. Such was the authoritie of Gods worde, that if either Paul, or Moſes, or any other which brought it, ſhould alter, adde to it, or diminiſh the ſame, he ſhould be accurſed. And yet the Pope doth take power to make lawes contrary to the lawes of the word of God: to diſpenſe with the ſame, to diſanull what hee will: and which is moſt blaſphemous of all, to affirme that the holie Scriptures hauehave no authoritie without him: but are of themſelues dead & can hauehave no certaintie. Is not this to make himſelfe God, or equall with God? What is there which hath authoritie ouer Gods word, but God? Who doth not here eſpie the very hornes of the diuell péep vp, and ſpeake theſe things out of the mouth of his vicar Antichriſt? They do al forſake p. 111God and worſhip the beaſt, which giuegive him this authoritie.