A Dialogue Between a Papist and Protestant, Dialogue (1 of 3)

A Dialogue Between a Papist and Protestant · Dialogue (1 of 3)

p. 1A Contention betweene a Papiſt, and a Profeſſor of the Goſpell.

PAPIST.

I Am glad to ſee you well Sir, for old acquaintance ſake, which I would be content to renew againe.

Pro.

I am glad alſo that you are in health, I ſaw you not a great while before now.

Pa.

I pray ye what newes? were ye at London lately? What is become of the Catholikes? I heare there hath bene great diſputation in the Tower.

Pro.

There hath béene diſputation indeed, by reaſon of a proude challenge which was made.

Pa.

Ye might terme it a proude challenge, if he had not bene able to make his part good. But I heare he behaued himſelfe very learnedly, and with great victorie againſt all which were ſet vppon him.

Pro.

Ye hauehave heard moe lies then that, but I perceiue ye are a Papiſt, or at the leaſt a fauourer of Papiſts, for they bragge that he did excellently, although in very déede, he was there ſhewed to be but an obſtinate cauiller.

p. 2Pa.

Wherefore ſhould ye call me Papiſt, I am obedient to the lawes, and do not refuſe to go to the Church.

Pro.

Then it ſeemeth you are a Church Papiſt?

Pa.

A Church Papiſt, what meane you by that?

Pro.

Do you not know? I will tell ye: there are Papiſts which wil not come at the Church: and there are Papiſts which can kéepe their conſcience to themſelues and yet go to Church: of this latter ſort it ſeemeth you are: becauſe ye go to the Church.

Pa.

How can you tell what is in mens conſciences, you take vponupon ye to iudge very deeply?

Pro.

Nay there needeth no déepe iudgement, they are ſo ſhallow that a man may eaſily ſound them to the bottome. Although the Church wals be thicke, yet a man may eſpie them by ſome creuiſe.

Pa.

Whereby do you know them ſo eaſily? I pray by what notes can ye diſcerne them?

Pro.

Some of them will not ſticke to maintaine ſuch popiſh opinions, as they know there is no great danger of law for. The ſimple ſort which can no ſkill of doctrine, ſpeake of the mery world when there was leſſe preaching, and when all things were ſo cheape, that they might hauehave xx. egs for a penny. Other there be which neuer name Papiſts, but Catholikes, & if ye reaſon with them, they do it but for arguments p. 3ſake, not that they ſay ſo, but the Catholikes ſay ſo. Another ſort there are, & thoſe are as peſtilent as can bee for to the ende they may do the greater miſchiefe, they are Proteſtants: but yet if any Preacher do zealouſly beate downe Popery, he doth reaile, he is cholerike, hee is vncharitable, and ſo they deuiſe all meanes poſſible to diſturbe him: theſe and ſuchlike, are the notes to diſcerne a Church Papiſt.

Pa.

You call them zealous Preachers, & they be very ſciſmatikes, and ſeduce the people with falſe doctrine, and therfore ſuch as be wiſe, quiet, and ſtayed men, cannot abide them.

Pro.

I ſee well that you are not of thoſe which to it but for Arguments ſake, you will not ſhew what the Catholikes ſay, but what your ſelf ſaith. Had ye not great cauſe to be offended when I ſaid ye were a Papiſt?

Pa.

I thinke plaine dealing is beſt, in very deed I take ye to be heretikes, I am a Catholike.

Pro.

You take vsus to be heretikes, but in very deede I am able to proue that you are foule and rancke heretikes your ſelues: and far from true Catholikes.

Pa.

Ye do vsus great wrong to call vsus heretikes, for we hold and bee of the Catholicke Church, which hath euer condemned all heretikes. If Catholikes be heretikes, then are we alſo heretikes: but this latter belongeth to you, and all other which forſake the truth.

p. 4Pro.

Nay, thoſe which hold the Catholike faith are of this Catholike Church, and the doctrine of the Catholike faith we hold, which hath alwaies condemned heretikes: and therfore ye do vsus as great wrong in calling vsus heretikes, as the Phariſies and Sadduces did vntounto Saint Paule when they counted him ſo.Act. 24.14.Acts 24:14 You hauehave forſaken the true doctrine of the old Catholike faith, and therefore ye are no Catholikes.

Pa.

We are they which hold the auncient Catholike faith, yours is new doctrine: we beleeue as all our forefathers did: If your doctrine be true, then all our forefathers were damned, for they alwayes beleeued contrary to that which you beleeue.

Pro.

The maner of you Papiſtes is, to affirme things very ſtrongly, but when ye ſhold proue them, then are ye exceeding weake, and can bring forth naught but poore ſtuffe. Ye are as able to proue theſe things which ye affirme, as I am to remoue mountaines.

Pa.

We may ſay ſo of you more rightly, becauſe you affirme much and proue litle. I am able for to make good all that which I hauehave ſpoken.

Pro.

Are you content to make triall who bring ſtrongeſt proues, if ye be, let me heare how ye can diſproue our faith, and afterward I will ſhow what I hauehave to diſproue yours, & ſo it ſhall be ſéene which hold the Catholike faith, and which be heretickes.

p. 5Pa.

I am very well content, tell me what I ſhall begin withall.

Pro.

Begin with thoſe things which ye affirmed euen now: proue that our doctrine is new: that you beleeue as all the forefathers did: that our doctrine doth condemne all our forefathers, and eueryevery wiſe man will graunt that yours is the Catholike faith: if ye cannot proue this, then confeſſe that your doctrine is come from the father of lies, and not from the God of truth For there is but one truth, which is Gods word, all other doctrines are of the diuell.

Pa.

If that faith which you beleeue, and doctrine which you profeſſe, be not new, then was it beleeued and knowne in the daies of our forefathers: but it was not heard of in their daies, neither was it knowne vntill ſuch time as Luther did ſet it abroach. Therefore the proudeſt heretike of ye all ſhall neuer be able, to ſhew that it is of antiquitie.

Pro.

Here are ruffling words: the proudeſt heretike of thē al is not proud enough to deale with you: but indeede if your proud conceipt were no ſturdier then your argument, yee might eaſily be dealt withall. I confeſſe your Maior, or firſt propoſition of your argument to be true, which is this, if the doctrine which you profeſſe be not new, then was it beleeued in the daies of our forefathers. But your ſecond, which is this, that our faith & doctrine p. 6was not heard of in the dayes of y^e forefathers, vntill Luther did ſet it abroch, is moſt falſe, for our doctrine is the holy word of God, deliuered to the Church by the Apoſtles & Prophets. We beléeue as Adam, Seth, Enoch, and the reſt of y^e holy fathers did beléeue before y^e floud: we beléeue as Abraham, Iſaack & Iaacob did beléeue, & the other godly patriarkes before the time of Chriſt: we beléeue as the bleſſed Apoſtles of our Lord, & other holy teachers in the Church a lōg time after thē did. But you Papiſts when you ſpeake of the forefathers, let paſſe all theſe, which are the moſt auncient and moſt principall, & draw vsus to a few of your owne, which hauehave bene within theſe ſeuen or eight hundred yeares: in which time religion hath bene corrupted, and the great Antichriſt, for the moſt part of this time hath preuailed. If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham, let it be counted new, and let vsus be taken for heretickes.

Pa.

If this were true, that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flou…d, as the Patriarkes after the floud, as the Apoſtles of Chriſt, then doubtleſſe you are in the right way: but theſe are but words, how will ye proue this? we ſay ſtill you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of theſe: and we proue it by this reaſon, becauſe ye are fallen away from the faith of thoſe forefathers which ſucceeded theſe. For the fathers of our Church are the ſucceſſors of the Apoſtles, therefore p. 7you being fallen from them, are fallen from the Apoſtles.

Pro.

Then ye graunt, that thoſe hauehave the truth on their ſide, which beléeue as the Apoſtles, Prophets, & Patriarches did. It remaineth only in tryall which of vsus hold that faith which they did. We proue that we do, becauſe we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible, vpō which their faith was grounded. You bring for your proofe y^e doctrine & ſucceſſiō of ſome mē, for certaine hundred yeares. Let vsus now ſée who bringeth y^e beſt and ſureſt proofe, ſay what ye can to weaken ours, & then I wil ſhew that the fathers which you boaſt of, from whom we ſeparate our ſelues, are no ſucceſſors of the Apoſtles, and therefore in departing from them, we depart not from the Apoſtles: whoſe doctrine we hold.

Pa.

What are ye the better to ſay ye bring the Scriptures, and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures, and ye will be tried by the Scriptures? By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apoſtles, and Prophets did, your reaſon is not good, becauſe the Scriptures are hard to be vnderſtood, who ſhall iudge which is the true ſenſe and meaning of them? who ſhall tell ye how the Apoſtles and forefathers did vnderſtand them? Shall not the Church? If ye may take them after your owne interpretation, then ye will do well enough: but the Church (which we are) is to interprete them, and therefore we do ſtill condemne you and all p. 8other heretikes, although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer ſo much, becauſe you do but abuſe them, as the diuell did when he tempted Chriſt. Therfore ye muſt bring better reaſon then this, to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith, for this doth not proue it.

Pro.

Oh what a trim ſhift is this: here is as pretie a iugling caſt as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the ſimple and vnſkilfull, to make them beleeue that the ſcriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome: Each man muſt light his candle there, or els he ſhall go in the dark. This is one of the moſt ſubtill and craftie cauils which you Papiſtes can make, and one of the ſtrongeſt pillers which your kingdome is built vponupon: For when ye cannot denie but y^t the Scriptures doe ſpeake for vsus, then ye flie to this, that they are hard to be vnderſtood: ye wold make vsus beleeue that when they ſpeake of one thing they meane another: when they ſpeake of good they meane euill, when they ſet forth heauen, they meane hell.

Pa.

It is like you will anſwere truth, when ye charge vsus with ſo great and manifeſt a lie, where can ye ſhew that euer any of our ſide hath ſpoken or written, that when the ſcripture ſpeaketh of one thing it meaneth another?

Pro.

Is that ſuch a lie, I pray you what is the cauſe why ye tel vsus the ſcriptures are hard, when they ſpeake ſo fully, ſo plainely, and p. 9plentifully, and with ſuch conſent and agreement in thoſe things which are the principles of our faith, if it be not, that when they ſpeake of one thing they meane another? Wherefore ſhold we not vnderſtand what God ſaith vntounto vsus, if he deale ſimply? Wherfore did the Lord ſpeake by his Prophetes and Apoſtles to the ſimple & common people if they could not vnderſtand what he ſaid? I cannot tell, what other reaſon ye can ſhew, why they ſhould be ſo darke as you make them.

Pa.

Are ye then in good ſadneſſe of this mind, that the ſcriptures are not hard to be vnderſtood? and are they not vncertaine, becauſe they may be expounded diuerſe wayes?

Pro.

I do not deny,2. Pet. 3…2 Pet 3 but that as S. Peter ſaith, There be ſome things hard to be vnderſtood, which the vnlearned and vnſtable do peruert, as they do other ſcriptures to their owne deſtruction. I confeſſe with the authour of the Epiſtle to the Hebrues.Heb. 5.Heb 5 That there are things hard to bee vnderſtood, becauſe we be dull of hearing. Alſo the iuſt iudgement of God vponupon the wickedneſſe of men, as it is ſet forth by the Prophet Iſaiah, Iſa. 5.Isa 5in hardning their harts & blinding their eyes, that in hearing, they may heare and not vnderſtand, in ſéeing they may ſee, and not perceiue, and alſo in cauſing the word of God to be vntounto them as a ſealed booke,ſa. 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderſtood. Now although they be hard alſo in ſome p. 10ſort euen to the godly and diligent man, & thoſe whom God doth teach, yet they are not hard as you make them, that is to ſay, that in no wiſe they may be vnderſtood or hauehave any certainty in them, but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie. For that is moſt blaſphemouſly to take away the light from the moſt pure and cleare word of God. This therefore is but diuelliſh craft, by which ye would driue vsus from Gods word, which ſtandeth ſure on our ſide, and maketh flat againſt you. The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way: hauing but one ſenſe.

Pa.

That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vsus, where he ſaith, That the vnlearned and vnſtable do peruert not only thoſe hard things, but alſo all other Scriptures to their diſtruction.2. Pet. 1.2 Pet 1 Likewiſe the ſame Apoſtle ſaith, That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation. S. Paul ſaith,1. Tim. 3.1 Tim 3 That the Church is the pillar & ground of truth. Then I reaſon thus, the vnlearned do peruert the ſcriptures, therefore they are not to deale with them: no priuate perſon is to interprete the Scriptures: therefore none but the Church, or thoſe which hauehave the authority in the Church: and becauſe the Church is the pillar of truth: whoſoeuer doth ſeparate himſelfe from the Church, doth depart from the truth. And by this we do ſtill proue that you are all heretickes and ſciſmatikes, and do peruert the ſcriptures, becauſe you take them not as the Church doth expound p. 11them. The ſcriptures ſeeme to be on your ſide, but they are not, they ſeeme to be againſt vsus, but they are not.

Pro.

This is very ſound ſtuffe, you make three ſtrong concluſions out of three ſentences of the ſcriptures. In the firſt ye reaſon thus, the vnlearned do peruert the ſcriptures, therefore none can vnderſtand the ſcriptures but the learned: by this, your meaning is to ſhut out all the layitie as you call them from iudging of doctrine, and to allow vnderſtanding of the ſcriptures to none but the learned, that is, the Clergie of Rome, for that we ſhal hauehave by and by. But ye ouerſhoote your ſelfe much when ye thinke that Saint Peter by vnlearned men, doth meane ſuch as hauehave not bin brought vp in ſchoole learning, and ſo put that difference betweene cleargie and layitie: No he counteth all thoſe learned which are taught of God, both of the common ſort of people and other: & all thoſe are vnlearned which are not taught of God: although otherwiſe they abound in all knowledge of tongues and arts, or whatſoeuer. Such as hauehave learned Chriſt Ieſus, and him crucified, and ſo are become new creatures in Chriſt, they are learned:Col. 2.Col 2 For in him are all the treaſures of wiſdome and knowledge. He that hath not learned Chriſt, he is vnlearned. If he be not new borne, but as S. Iohn ſaith,1. Iohn. 3.1 John 3 cōmitteth ſin he hath not ſéene him nor knowne him: although otherwiſe he be neuer ſo ſtudied a mā p. 12in the ſcriptures.Math. 11.Matt 11 For this cauſe we ſee that the poore Publicanes are called the children of wiſedome, becauſe they imbraced the doctrine of Chriſt, when the great Doctors the Scribes and Phariſies, were ſtarke blind. They ſayd, none followed Chriſt but the multitude, which knew not the law,Iohn. 7.John 7 which were accurſed: when as indeede they were blind and accurſed themſelues: & ſo fareth it now with the Pope and his ſhauelings: they ſay the people cannot vnderſtand the ſcriptures, when themſelues do not. The next ſentence vppon which you conclude is out of Peter alſo, where hee ſaith▪ No ſcripture is of priuate interpretation. From hence you fetch an inuincible argument to proue that none of vsus may interprete, but Rome onelyonly: No priuate man is to interprete the ſcriptures, becauſe no ſcripture is of priuate interpretation: all thoſe which are not of the Popiſh Cleargie, or which hauehave not authority in the Church from the Pope, or do not expound as the Church, are priuate men: therfore none of thoſe are to interprete the ſcriptures. Here the Pope like a greedy cormorant will hauehave all to himſelfe. But ye deale deceiptfully, or at the leaſt vnſkilfully with the text which ye alleadge: for Saint Peter when he ſaith priuate, doth not ſpeake it to make this difference betweene men, as though for interpreting the ſcriptures, ſome ſhold hauehave authority, & ſome ſhould be priuate: but he ſetteth p. 13men againſt God, calling that priuate which is of man. For he doth reaſon thus: the ſcripture was not giuen by the will of man, but by the ſpirite of God: therefore the interpretation thereof muſt bee of God, & men muſt not bring that which is their owne. If the interpretation be by the ſpirit, then is it not priuate: if it be out of mans braine, although it ſhould be the Pope & al his Cardinals, yea, ten thouſand Popes, it is ſtill priuate, after the ſenſe in which S. Peter doth call priuate. For let any ſkilful man in the greeke tongue looke vponupon the word, which is idias epiluſeos, and he will confeſſe, that it doth ſignifie, that which is ones owne. Then the ſenſe is plaine, and it is alſo manifeſt how peeuiſhly you peruert the word of God. What manner of argument is this? a man may not in the interpreting of the Scriptures bring that which is his owne: therfore none may interprete them but y^e Church of Rome. Your laſt reaſon is not worth anſwering: for although it is moſt true, that y^e Church is the pillar of truth, & y^t thoſe are voyd of truth, which abide not in the Church: yet this is as falſe, y^t the Pope & his company are the Church of Chriſt, as the other is true, and therefore we are no heretikes nor Schiſmatikes for departing from you, which are a den of theeues, which hauehave conſpired againſt the truth.

Pa.

Two groſſe things and ſtrange I gather out of your words, the one, that you would hauehave the p. 14people of themſelues, to iudge of doctrine: the other, ye will hauehave no other interpreter of the ſenſe of the Scriptures, but the Spirit. I pray ye, I am an vnlearned man, & would faine know which is the truth, I heare you alleadge the ſcriptures in one ſenſe, and you ſay you hauehave the ſpirit, our men alleadge them in another ſenſe, and ſay they hauehave the ſpirit: the Anabaptiſts, they hauehave the ſpirite, the Arrians they interprete by the ſpirit: what ſhal I do? here is eueryevery man hath the ſpirit, & yet eueryevery one goeth a contrary way. It is manifeſt therefore that heere needeth a more certaine thing to leane vntounto, or elſe the ſimple man cannot tell which way to turne him. What ſhall he do now, but looke how the Church beleeueth, and reſt in that. For he muſt hauehave that which may teach him to know which of all theſe hath the true ſpirit, or elſe he is neuer the neerer.

Pro.

Ye find two groſſe things in my words, one of them is, that I ſay the people can iudge of doctrine, when it is preached. What doth our Sauior Chriſt meane when he ſaith,Iohn. 10.John 10 My ſheep heare my voyce, a ſtranger they wil not heare. they flie frō ſtrangers? Cā they know the voice of the true ſhepheard from the falſe, & can they not diſcerne doctrine? The other is, that I will hauehave none other interpreter of the ſenſe of the ſcriptures but the ſpirit.1. Cor. 2.1 Cor 2 S. Paul ſaith: the eare hath not heard, nor the eye hath not ſeene, neither came into mans hart, y^e things which God hath prepared for them that louelove him: but God p. 15hath reuealed them vntounto vsus by his ſpirite: for the ſpirite ſearcheth all things, yea the deepe things of God. And the great doubt which you put forth in the ſimple man, which would faine vnderſtand the truth, and which of all thoſe foure that ye named hauehave the ſpirit, I anſwer, that if he himſelfe hauehave not the ſpirite of God to teach him, he ſhall not be able to iudge: but if the ſpirite do teach him, then can he find it, for the ſpirite which doth teach the one to vtter the doctrine, which is his, doth teach the other to know that doctrine, and in them conſenteth vntounto it, being his owne: and therefore Saint Iohn ſaith to all y^e Chriſtians:1. Iohn. 4.1 John 4 Trie the ſpirites whether they be of God. By your ſaying the people ſhould not be able to trie them, and ſo he would teach them that which did not belong vntounto them.

Pa.

What a trimme colour you ſet vppon the matter, and how pretily ye can ſhift: but I wil lay open your ſubtiltie. To proue that the velearned people can iudge of doctrine preached, you alledge the ſaying of Chriſt, My ſheepe heare my voyce &c. I pray ye Sir, if a man ſhould demand of you, whether he meaneth that this ſhall be immediatly or not, and whether, when he ſaith they ſhalbe all taught of God, doth he exclude the miniſtery of men or not? I know ye will ſay the voyce of the great Shepeard is heard when thoſe which he hath appointed to be ſhepheards do vtter his doctrine. Ye will alſo ſay, that although p. 16God teach, yet he doth it by the miniſtery of men. Then I anſwer, that the vnlearned people are to heare the voyce of Chriſt from the Pope, who is their great ſhepheard vnderunder Chriſt, & God doth teach them by him: they are to ſticke and cleaue to his determination: of themſelues they cannot iudge, but they muſt doe it by him: he muſt tell them which is the woolfe, and which is the falſe Prophet: they cannot tell which commeth with the true ſpirit, or which ſpirit is of God, but as he doth direct them. And for this cauſe we ſay ſtill, that ye hauehave not the true Catholike faith, nor the ſcriptures on your ſide, nor the true ſenſe, becauſe ye are gone from the only true expoūder of them.

Pro.

All that I hauehave brought is but a colour and a prety ſhift, and eaſily diſcloſed with one poore diſtinction of mediate & immediate. But I pray ye Sir, how doth this hang together, the voyce of the true ſhepheard is heard when it is vttered by men, therefore the way to know it is by men. God teacheth by men, therfore God teacheth to diſcerne the ſpirits by men: or if it be ſo, muſt this needs follow, that the Pope & his Cleargy are thoſe men which muſt do the déed? This is a ſtrange thing, Chriſt Ieſus, S. Paule, S. Peter S. Iohn & others, do foretell the people of falſe prophets the only way and remedy to auoyde them, as you ſay, is to hang vponupon the Pope, & yet none of all theſe or any other, hath ſo much as once noted it, or tell the poore people by whoſe direction they might be p. 17ſafe in ſo extreame danger.

Pa.

There was no neede ſo long as Chriſt or his Apoſtles liued to tell them ſo, for they taught them this thing, or how can you tell they did not: they might, though it be not written: is all written which they did teach?

Pro.

Here is mighty ſtrong geare, this were able to ſet vp a Pope, if he were thrown down, & to reuiue him againe, if he were hanged. No maruell forſooth Chriſt nor his Apoſtles did not tell y^e people, y^t the Pope and Church of Rome ſhould be their refuge when heretickes ſhold ſéeke to ſeduce thē, becauſe there was no need ſo long as they liued: this were ſomwhat if they had told only of y^e falſe teachers of their time: but when they foretel the great dangers & miſchiefs which ſhould be in the Church lōg after their dayes, being aboue all things moſt chary of the ſafety of the ſame, this were very abſurd,Acts. 20.Acts 20 not once to giuegive any note of the ſureſt remedy. S. Paul ſaith to the elders of the Church of Epheſus, that he did know, that after his departure there ſhold enter in grieuous wolues, not ſparing y^e flock, & there ſhold riſe of thēſelues which ſhold ſpeake peruerie things, and draw diſciples after thē: & yet he ſpeaketh of no remedy but y^t which was baniſhed in your Church, namely careful & diligēt teaching: for he ſaith, therfore watch & be mindful, &c. S. Peter ſaith, as there were in times paſt falſe prophets amōg y^e people, ſo ſhal there be falſe teachers amōg you:2. Pet. 2.2 Pet 2 p. 18and afterward he ſheweth this remedy, not willing them to hang their faith vppon his chaire, or ſucceſſor, but to call to remembrance the words that had bene told them of the holy Prophetes, and by the Apoſtles of Chriſt. Saint Iohn ſaith,1. Iohn. 2.1 John 2 little children, it is the laſt houre, ye hauehave heard that Antichriſt ſhal come, I ſay there are already many Antichriſtes in the world: and a litle after he telleth them how they ſhall eſcape the danger: but (ſaith he) you hauehave receiued an annointing: what, from the Pope, or his greaſie oyle? no, but from the holy one, and know all things. Againe, ye neede not (ſaith he) that any man teach ye, but as the annoynting do teach ye. Chriſt Ieſus foretelleth,Math. 24.Matt 24 that there ſhould riſe falſe Prophets, and do ſuch wonders, that if it were poſſible, euen the elect ſhould be deceiued: but y^t (as his words do moſt plainely ſhew) is vnpoſſible: and why? doth he ſay, becauſe I will leaue a vicar, and as many as hang vppon his ſleeue ſhall be ſafe? not ſo, but becauſe God hath choſen them: for he doth keepe them,Iohn. 10.John 10 and none is able to take them out of his hand. He ſaith in another place: Beware of falſe Prophetes, which come vntounto you in ſhéepes clothing, but inwardly are rauening woolues: and whereby, ſhall men know them:Math. 7.Matt 7 He ſayeth, by their fruits. But how know we whether he did tell them ſo or not, he might, though it be not written? alacke, alacke.

p. 19Pa.

I know your ſect make but a ſcoffe at the traditions of the Apoſtles which were not cō mitted to writing: but let that go, it is but a folly to perſwade thoſe to beleeue, which hauehave denied the faith, and deſpiſe the Catholike Church.

Pro.

The Pope of Rome hath a great cheſt ful of traditions, which S. Peter did not put in writing, but he hath: & whoſoeuer doth not beleeue theſe, hath denied the faith, & diſpiſeth the Catholike Church. This is not your beſt way, your beſt way is to ſtand to this, that the Pope hath authority to decree what he wil: & ſo your traditions ſhall ſtand ſure though they be flat againſt the word of God. But I am content to let this go alſo, and to returne to that which we had in hand: and becauſe I would hauehave the matter made a little more plaine, I will demaund a queſtion or two at your hands. Was there not a Church in the world before the cō ming of Chriſt?

Pa.

Who doth deny that? the Iewes were the Church and people of God.

Pro.

Then tell me further, whether had they the word of God or not, to inſtruct them and to ground their faith vponupon?

Pa.

They had the bookes of Moſes, they had the bookes of the Prophets: they were bidden to heare them.

Pro.

Who were appointed in the Church to expound the law and the Prophets vntounto the people?

p. 20Pa.

The high Prieſt, and other Prieſts, and Leuites, which God appointed to hauehave that office.

Pro.

Did the high Prieſtes which ſucceeded Aaron depart away from the truth and ſeduce the people at any time, and likewiſe the other Prieſts and Leuites?

Pa.

What though they did? they cruc ified Chriſt: yet it followeth not that the Pope & his Cleargie can erre, becauſe Chriſt promiſed to be with them to the end of the world.

Pro.

I will come to that promiſe afterward, but tell me how did the Church in the meane time, when the high Prieſts and rulers taught contrary to the truth? what were they to leane vntounto now? where was the Church?

Pa.

It was in Chriſt, and thoſe which beleeued in him, theſe were the Church and he that ioyned himſelfe to theſe did right, and had the true faith.

Pro.

The high Prieſts and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and ſucceſſion from Aaron, which was many hundred yeares. When Chriſt taught againſt theſe, and they againſt him: alleadging that they were Moſes deſciples,Mat. 21.Matt 21 they did know God ſpake to Moſes, as for him, they did not know whence hee was:Iohn. 9.John 9 they were the Church and had authority, they demanded of him by what authority he did thoſe things, and who gaue him that authority: they ſayd he ſeduced the p. 21people, and none followed him but the common people, which knew not the law,Mat. 15.Matt 15 which were accurſed: they accuſed him that he brake the tradition of the Elders, he brake the Sabboth, and ſuch like. How did the people know who had the truth, he or they?

Pa.

They might know by the miracles which he wrought, when he caſt forth diuels, and healed diſeaſes.

Pro.

They ſayd, he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels:Iohn. 10.John 10 and ſo blinded themſelues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy ſpirite: and therefore he ſayth vntounto them:Iohn. 8.John 8 Why do not ye heare my voyce: becauſe ye are not of my ſheepe. Alſo in another place, thoſe that are of God heare the words of God, ye therefore heare them not, becauſe you are not of God And whereas you ſpeake of miracles which he wrought:Iohn. 10.John 10 how did the people know that Iohn Baptiſt was of God, ſeeing he wrought no miracle? there can bee nothing more plaine then this, that the people did not ſtay their faith vppon the ſucceſſion of the Prieſts, nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers, nor vponupon the conſent of the Cleargie, or any outward thing, for then they ſhold hauehave refuſed Chriſt:Iohn. 6.John 6 but they were giuen vntounto him of his Father, and taught by him, and therefore heard his voyce, and beleeued in him. Bleſſed art thou Simon,Iohn. 10.John 10 p. 22fleſh and bloud reuealed not this vntounto thee,Mat. 16.Matt 16 but my father which is in heauen. Euen after this manner do the Romiſh Phariſies deale now againſt the Goſpell & the true beleeuers: we are the Church, we are the ſucceſſours of Peter, yee muſt be iudged by vsus: your doctrine is new: ye breake the traditions of the Elders, ye are ſeducers and heretikes: but when you hauehave ſayd all that ye can, we ſtand ſtill vppon the rocke of Gods truth, which fleſh and bloud hath not reuealed vntounto vsus, but the Father by his ſpirit.

Pa.

Here is much a do, and yet nothing to the purpoſe. You made a compariſon betweene our Church and the Church before Chriſt: and becauſe the people then did not ſtay vponupon the rulers of the Church, therefore they muſt not now, how followeth this? do ye not know that there is great difference Chriſt made promiſe, that he would be with our Church vntounto the end of the world: Matth. 28.Matt 28and therfore it can not erre. Now becauſe the Church cannot erre, all thoſe muſt needes bee heretikes which depart from it.

Pro.

There is great difference betweene our Church ſay you, and the Church of the Iewes: Is the great difference in this, that yours are the greater Phariſies? no ſay you, our Church can not erre, becauſe Chriſt hath promiſed to be with it to the end of the word? I maruell much in what ſcripture a man ſhall find that ſame promiſe, where p. 23Chriſt ſaith, I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende, and hee ſhall neuer erre: I ſuppoſe a man ſhal find it either in Legenda aurea, or in ſome ſuch Canonicall ſcripture. I know you wil ſay, it is in the new Teſtament for Chriſt did promiſe his Apoſtles y^t he would ſend them the Comforter,Iohn. 16.John 16 and that he would be with them vntounto the end of the world. Ye reaſon thus, Chriſt promiſed to be with the Church, therfore with the Church of Rome, your concluſion is very nimble, and commeth ſkipping in before it bee called, but it muſt be ſent away like a ſkipiacke, and be taught better maners. Is there alſo (as you ſay) ſo great difference, that the Church before Chriſt had no ſuch promiſe? was the true Church euer without the ſpirit of God? had they no promiſe that way? what ſaith God by the Prophete,Pſal. .132. or what meaneth this, I hauehave choſen Sion, here will I reſt, here ſhall be my habitation for euer.Iſay. 49.Isa 49 And likewiſe when the Prophete Iſay ſaith, but Sion ſayd, God hath forſaken me, and the Lord hath forgotten me: what doth the Lord anſwer? Can a mother forget her child, & not pitie the ſonne of her wombe? though theſe ſhould forget, yet will not I forget thee. Behold, I hauehave grauen thee vponupon my hands, and thy walles are euer in my ſight. Are theſe no ſuch promiſes as yours hauehave? You ſee for all theſe, the builders refuſe the ſtone,Pſal. 118.Ps 118 which is made the chiefe corner ſtone: the rulers in the p. 24Church and ſuch as ſucceeded the holy Prieſts of God, fel away, neuertheleſſe God preſerued his Church: ſo the Pope, his Cardinals, his Biſhops, and Prieſts, became & are very hell hounds, & yet God doth preſerue his litle flock: they ſhould be in a moſt miſerable caſe if they had none other guide but that horned beaſt of Rome: the Church, that is the elect cannot erre to deſtruction; but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes.

Pa.

This is your ſpitefull ſpirit by which ye do blaſpheme, but the holy father is neuer the worſe for your rayling: it is all the reaſon ye hauehave againſt him.

Pro.

As great rayling and blaſphemie, as if a man ſhould call the diuell a Dragon: for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion, which is a fierce and ſauage beaſt. But let vsus come to the matter againe, when ye charge vsus with new doctrine, and make the cauſe to bee this, that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares, againſt which we alleage the eternall word of God, then ye ſhift vsus off with this, that we cannot vnderſtand the word, vnleſſe we receiue the meaning thereof from your Church: and although we hauehave the moſt cleare teſtimonies of the Scriptures againſt you, yet ye ſet light thereby, and all becauſe your Church cannot erre, and you expound them otherwiſe. Therefore there is by your p. 25doctrine no rule left for a man to build his faith vppon, but the expoſition of the gouernours in the Church. Aunſwere me directly vntounto this, were there not falſe Prophetes in olde time among the people of the Iewes?

Pa.

The Scripture doth ſhew that there were ſomtime a great number at once, and the Church of God did euer condemne them.

Pro.

But tell me, how did the people know who were the true Prophets and who were the falſe? the one ſide commeth, and they ſay, thus ſaith the Lord: no ſaith the other ſide, that is falſe, thus ſaith the Lord quite contrary to the other: and not only at ſome times a multitude of falſe Prophets againſt one true ſeruant of God, but alſo the high Prieſtes and other Prieſts and gouernours in the Church, taking part with them againſt the true Prophet. Where was then your golden rule, which ye would hauehave y^e common ſort to meaſure their faith by, I beleeue as the Church beleeueth: I cannot iudge: I muſt not meddle with the meaning of the Scriptures?

Pa.

Proue this which you hauehave ſayd: it is an eaſie matter to affirme, and you are ready to doe that, but your proofes come ſlowly. Can you ſhew that the high Prieſts and gouernours in the Temple did ioyne with the falſe prophets, againſt the true Prophet?

Pro.

They come a little faſter then you p. 26would gladly hauehave them: or elſe you would not be ſo calme, if there were but a little matter of colour againſt vsus for want of proofe, you would ſet vp your briſtles by and by, and you would crowe: but when the matter brought out doth choke ye, then ye ſay there is nothing brought: ye bid me proue, that whē there were falſe Prophets, and that ſundry againſt one, they had the Prieſts and rulers of the Church on their ſide. Reade Ieremias the Prophet, ye ſhall find the falſe Prophets againſt him, and the Prieſts alſo: and euen as you ſay againſt Luther, and other which imbrace the holy Goſpell, they be heretikes, the Pope cannot erre: ſo ſay they for themſelues againſt Ieremias,Iere. 18.Jer 18 come let vsus imagine ſome deuiſe againſt him: for the law ſhall not periſh from the Prieſt, nor the counſell from the wiſe, nor the word from the Prophete. Were the godly people now which forſooke the Prieſts,Iere. 1.Jer 1 Princes, and Prophets, and gaue eare to Ieremias, apoſtats? Did not the Lord tell him at the firſt when he ſent him, that he ſhould hauehave the people, the Prieſts and Princes againſt him? Alſo ye may ſee it very fully and plainely expreſſed,Iere. 20.Jer 20 that Paſhur the Prieſt, which was appointed, chiefe in the houſe of God, did ſmite Ieremias, and put him in the ſtockes, when hee heard him propheſie: here was a right Pope, & a ſtoute Biſhop: that durſt ſet Gods Prophet in the ſtockes. This thing is ſet foorth in ſundry p. 27places of the Prophets, how the Prieſts & the falſe Prophetes were linked together againſt the true meſſengers of the Lord. For ye may ſee how the Prieſts and Prophets, and people lay hold on Ieremias,Iere. 26.Jer 26 and would hauehave put him to death: for the Prieſts & Prophets accuſed Ieremias before the Princes, that hee was worthy of death.Eze. 22.Ezek 22 The Prophet Ezechiel alſo complaineth grieuouſly of y^e Prieſtes and the Prophets. Alſo long before the time of Ieremias & Ezechiel, the Lord complayned of y^e Prieſtes and Prophetes for their wickedneſſe. For thus he ſaith by Mica, Mica 3.the Princes iudge for bribes, the Prieſts teach for reward, and the Prophets do propheſie for money. Behold alſo what God complaineth againſt y^e Prieſts and Prophetes, euen in the dayes of the moſt godly king Ioſia: as ye may reade in the Prophet Sophanie. Sopha. 3.Likewiſe where the holy Ghoſt ſheweth the cauſe of the great deſtruction which came vponupon Hieruſalem:2. Chro. 362 Chr 36 he ſaith that al the chiefe Prieſts and people, committed many tranſgreſſions according to all the abhominations of the heathen, and defiled the houſe of God which he had ſanctified in Hieruſalem: & how God ſent vntounto them his Prophetes, but they would not heare them. See then, if the wickedneſſe of the Prieſts draw the Lord out of his Temple, vntounto which he had made ſo glorious promiſes, and which he had choſen to be the place where he would be worſhipped: ſhall p. 28we now tie him to that chaire, from which there hauehave come the moſt horrible villanies againſt God, almoſt that euer were committed in the world? ſhall we ſay that the moſt pure & moſt holy God, hath faſtened himſelfe to the mother of whoredomes, and abominations?

Pa.

Ye take great paines to ſmall profit, for a man may in a word ouerthrow all that you hauehave built: ye hauehave ſhewed how the Prieſtes and gouernours in the Temple did corrupt their wayes and ioyned with the falſe Prophetes againſt the true meſſengers of the Lord. You gather out of this, that there was no rule left in the Church for the people to trie the worſhip and ſeruice of God by, but this concluſion of yours doth not follow, becauſe the corruption of maners and withſtanding the true Prophets, did not hinder but that they remayned ſtill the Church, and the worſhip appointed in the Temple was not to be deſpiſed, for if any did forſake it, they were indeed Apoſtats: for whē they were euen at the worſt, Chriſt ſendeth ſuch as he had cleanſed of the leproſie to ſhew themſelues to the Prieſt, and to offer the gift which Moſes had commanded. This muſt needes be ſo, for otherwiſe, how ſhould that ſaying of Chriſt, Math. 18.Matt 18dic eccleſiae, tell the Church, be a perpetuall rule to all the people: if there be once no Church viſible to tell that cauſe vntounto, where is then the doctrine and precept of Chriſt? Here therefore, I ſay ſtill ye be heretikes and apoſtats, inſomuch as ye hauehave departed frō the holy mother the Church: p. 29ye hauehave forſaken the fellowſhip of the faithfull: & that which ye pretend the abuſes of the Church, is no excuſe at all: for will ye forſake your mother, becauſe ſhe wanteth perfect beauty, or becauſe there is ſome deformity in her? the abuſes are to be reformed, the thing muſt not be deſtroyed. I would wiſh ye therfore to returne, and to ſubmit your ſelues againe, and not to caſt away your ſoules, for ye be all damned heretickes which be out of the Church.

Pro.

The breath of your mouth is very ſtrong, when as with one blaſt ye are able to ouerthrow whatſoeuer a man can bring out of the word of God. But ye deceiue your ſelfe greatly, for Gods truth will ſtand when you ſhall fall. Your poore and ſilly ſhifts wil ſtand ye in no ſteed: you make your reaſon after this maner, when the Prieſts were moſt corrupt, either in maners or withſtanding y^e true Prophets, yet they remayned ſtill the Church, and the ſeruice and worſhip in the Temple, was not to be deſpiſed: if any did, they were apoſtats. This ye confirme by ſuch as Chriſt hauing cleanſed he ſendeth to offer to y^e prieſts, & then by a perpetual rule which Chriſt gaue, dic eccleſiae tel y^e Church. Hereupō ye cōclude again y^t we be heretikes, becauſe we hauehave forſakē the Church of Rome, where ye tel vsus that y^e abuſes ſhold not driue vsus to do ſo, we muſt not forſake our mother, for ſome deformity, and want of beauty: I wil anſwer ye, y^t this argument may p. 30eaſily be denied, when you ſay thoſe which did forſake the worſhip in the Temple were Apoſtats, therefore thoſe which forſake the Church of Rome are heretickes and Apoſtats: for to make this hold, you muſt firſt proue that God hath tied his religion now to Rome, as he had then to the Temple, and that he hath choſen Rome, as he then choſe mount Sion: which ye ſhall neuer be able to do, becauſe it is moſt falſe. And then ye muſt proue, that your worſhip which you maintaine, is y^t which God hath commanded, and then doubtleſſe hee that ſhall depart from that, is an heretike. For if any did depart from worſhipping in the Temple, hee was not an apoſtat for departing from wicked Prieſts, but for refuſing that which God had appointed him to do. We depart not but from a den of theeues, and from an heape of damnable errors, and not from that which God hath commanded: & ſo Chriſt ſendeth the Leapers which he had clenſed, to fulfill the law of God commanded by Moſes, which was to be done, & to be done no where but in the Temple where the Prieſts bare the ſway. The other reaſon which ye bring, as a perpetuall rule of Chriſt, dic eccleſiae, tell the Church, is of no value, for although the rule be perpetual, doth it therfore follow, that it can alwayes bee put in practiſe? Hath Chriſt by that rule, where he ſaith if thy brother offend againſt thee, reproue him, if that do not ſerue, take one or two with thee, if he p. 31will not heare them, tell the Church, &c. ſet downe that there ſhall be euer a true and viſible Church, which will correct the offenders? How ſay ye to the Church of Iſrael in y^e dayes of the Prophet Elias, 1. King. 19.1 Kgs 19when he complained to God, that they had killed his Prophets, digged downe his Altars, and that he only was left, & they ſought his life: God made him anſwere, that he had a Church among them: I hauehave left vntounto me ſeuen thouſand in Iſrael, &c. which Elias did not ſée. Where was Dic eccleſiae now become? Muſt they bring their Dic eccleſiae to thoſe which are fallen away from God, & will excōmunicate the children of God,Iohn. 9.John 9 as the Phariſies did the blind man? Did he euer come vntounto them to be abſolued? When your diuelliſh ſinagogue do excommunicate vsus, we be the nigher vntounto Chriſt. It is true which ye ſay, that the true Church muſt not be forſaken for certaine abuſes, but if the abuſes be ſuch as vtterly deſtroy the faith, as yours are, then is it no longer the Church of Chriſt: but a company of wicked hell hounds: and therefore ye do but looſe your labour when you exhort vsus to rerurne to your Church, which is no mother of ours, but ſhe is the whore of Babylon, which hath filled the earth with her fornications. There are none bleſſed vnleſſe they depart from her, her wayes are the wayes of damnation:Reuel. 18.Rev 18 come out of Babylon ſayth the Angell of our God.

p. 32Pa.

I could anſwer ye againe with words, but ſo I ſhould but ſpend time, neither doe I like of long circumſtances without matter, which is the faſhion of you heretikes, when ye hauehave no ſound reaſons, then to make a ſhew of ſpeech, and fall to rayling.

Pro.

You cannot abide words without matter: neither can your meeke ſpirite tell which way to fall to rayling: but let any indifferent man reade ouer the bookes which your great Catholike Doctors ſet forth, and he will confeſſe, that in many words there will be found little matter. Take away your vntruthes, ſlaunders, and ſpitefull raylings, there will be but a little left behind. If we ſpeake of you, that which the Scriptures pronounce againſt you, by and by we rayle. Did Iohn Baptiſt rayle when he called the Phariſies,Math. 3.Matt 3 The generation of Vipers? But ſeeing ye ione matter, let vsus ſee it, to proue our doctrine to be new: ye muſt bring ſtronger reaſons then that the Church of Rome for certaine hundred yeares hath not allowed it: there is no point of our faith, but it is farre more auncient then your popiſh decrees: your bauld and doltiſh ſhift, to driue vsus onelyonly to your expoſition of the Scriptures is not worth a ſtraw, Gods holy ſpirit hath beſtowed great gifts vponupon his Church in theſe laſt dayes. Proceed with your matter.

Pa.

Nay you ſhall not ſo ſlylie conuey your p. 33ſelfe: ye make ſmal account of the interpretation of the Church of Rome, which agreeth with all the holy Doctors and Teachers euen from the time of the Apoſtles. Your expoſition of the word began of late in Germany, and therefore is not to be taken for Catholike.

Pro.

Seeing ye muſt needes lie, it is good to lie for ſomewhat: all holy Doctors and Teachers from the Apoſtles are on your ſide: this all doth ſignifie none: For the very truth is (as eueryevery man that can reade their writings may ſee) that they be (except in a very few points) all againſt ye: ſauing ſuch holy diuels, as within theſe latter times hauehave bene the Popes owne Doctors. Our expoſition is the ſame which the godly fathers (before Antichriſt had gotten the vpper ſeate in the Temple) did vſe: & therefore Catholike: although your mother diſallow it.

Pa.

Nay heretickes be liers, we ſay the truth when we do chalenge the auncient Doctors and Fathers to be on our ſide: we ſucceede them, we honour, louelove, and commend them more then you, we pray for their helpe, you ſeeke to deface and pull downe all remembraunce of them: let all the world be iudge whoſe ſide they are like to be of, ours or yours, when we hauehave them in ſo great and high eſtimation, and you ſet ſo light by them. Can we bee fallen from them (as you ſay) being ſo readie to doe them all the homage p. 34we can? our hearts do witneſſe that we do it in ſimplicity. Moreouer, all your matter is not worth a ſtraw which ye hauehave brought out of the Church of the Iewes: ye hauehave ſhewed that in Iſrael Elias could ſee no Church: that in the Temple, the Prieſts and falſe Prophets did conſpire againſt the true meſſengers of the Lord. This were ſomewhat if you could ſhew it in our Church, vntounto which Chriſt hath made his promiſe, neuer to forſake it: but to giuegive it his ſpirite to the worlds ende: Your matter is too weake to ouerthrow ſo great and manifeſt truth.

Pro.

It is indeed a certaine and ſure thing, that heretikes will lie, and therefore you Papiſts, whoſe Religion is a very hotch potch, & dunghill of all groſſe hereſies, will not ſticke at that. But here is a great reaſon brought, to proue that the holy Saints of God are on your ſide and not on ours. The holy Fathers are like (as all men may iudge) to be on their ſide, which ſucceede them, which do moſt louelove them, honour them, and commend them, but therein who knoweth not that ye go beyond vsus, which ye accuſe to deface their honor? And therefore they be on your ſide, and muſt néedes take you to be their ſpeciall friends. Indeede we confeſſe y^t you do giuegive that honour to the Saints which we deny them, and therefore ye ſeeme to louelove them more then we. But when the matter cō meth to the due triall, eueryevery man ſhall eaſily perceiue, that it doth not therefore follow, that p. 35they be on your ſide: becauſe it is no true louelove nor right honor which ye giuegive vntounto them: nor ſuch indeed as they can in any wiſe accept of: for when as all their delight and ioy was that God alone ſhould be worſhipped, and hauehave all his whole honor reſerued to himſelfe: how can they take it well at your hands, when ye play the arrant théeues, and moſt villanouſly robbe God to giuegive vntounto them? Are there any good mē heare in earth which would bee content to ſee theeues ſpoyle other mens goods, and to bring the ſame to them? if not, how ſhould the bleſſed Virgin, the holy Apoſtles, & other Saints of God count thoſe ſacrilegious wretches to be their friends, which rob and ſpoyle God of his honor, and thruſt Chriſt from his office, to beſtow vponupon them? No, thoſe honor them which follow their ſteps, in giuing all honor to God, they loued and held the truth, which was dearer to them then their liues, and therefore are on their ſide which walke in the truth. Moreouer your louelove and honour which you giuegive and beſtow vponupon them, is euen ſuch as the wicked Apoſtates among the Iewes did beſtow vponupon the holy Prophets of God. Thus Chriſt ſpeaketh: Woe be vntounto you Scribes & Phariſies,Math. 23.Matt 23 ye Hypocrites, becauſe you build the Sepulchers of the Prophets, & garniſh the Tombes of the righteous: and ye ſay, if we had bene in the dayes of our Fathers, we would not hauehave bene partakers with them in the bloud of the p. 36Prophets. Will you ſay that theſe did louelove the Prophets, which did ſo much hate Chriſt? did they honour the Prophets, and diſhonour Chriſt? Euen ſuch are you, ye honor the holy Saints of old, but if they were aliue on earth, ye would murder them. In the next place you make that to be nothing which I alleadge concerning y^e Church of y^e Iewes ye require that I ſhould ſhew ſome ſuch thing in your Church. What ſay ye to this,2. Theſ. 2.2 Thess 2 that S. Paule ſaith there ſhould be a falling away: the man of ſinne ſhould be ſet vp.Reuel. 13.Rev 13 And when Saint Iohn ſpeaking of the ſame apoſtaſie ſaith, that all the world wondered and followed the beaſt. And againe in the ſame Chapter he ſayth, that whoſoeuer would not worſhip the Image of the beaſt they ſhould be killed,Reuel. 13.Rev 13 and he cauſed all both ſmall and great, rich and poore, bond and free, to receiue a make in their right hand, or in their forehead. And that none might buy or ſell, but he which hath the marke or the name of the beaſt, or the number of his name. Ye wil not deny alſo but that which Saint Iohn ſpeaketh of the woman perſecuted by the Dragon,Reuel. 12.Rev 12 is meant of the Church, for the place doth plainely interprete it ſelfe, when he ſaith in the laſt verſe of the Chapter, That the Dragon was wrath, and went and made warre againſt the remnant of her ſeede, which keepe the commandements of God, and hauehave the teſtimony of Ieſus. Behold, how he ſheweth p. 37there that this Church ſhould be nouriſhed in the wilderneſſe for a time, times and halfe a time, from y^e preſence of the Dragon Where was then the viſible Church? Where was now dic eccleſiae tell the Church, if ye will vnderſtand it ſo fully?

Pa.

Muſt thoſe things needs be expounded againſt vsus? Can it not be taken but againſt the Church of Rome?

Pro.

That Propheſie of S. Paule, of the apoſtaſie by the man of ſinne, and the deſcription of the kingdome of Antichriſt by S Iohn in the Reuelation, cannot with any ſhew be turned vppon any other ſaue the Pope and his Cleargie. But I will come vntounto this thing more particularly afterward. Ye cannot now deny but that there might be and was, ſo great decay of truth by Antichriſt, that a man could not alwayes ſee a viſible gouernement of the Church, ſéeing Antichriſt was the head, and al things were done at his will & appointment.

Pa.

You would make the world beleeue what you liſt: but let them beleeue ye that will. It is a like matter that God wold forſake the Church ſo many hundred yeares, & ſuffer all our forefathers which were better then we to be deceiued and to periſh. No, no, I would we were like them: they were wiſer then we are. It is maruell that they ſhould be ſo farre wide, and no man to reproue them. There is no wiſe man, but he will take it to be the more ſurer way to cleaue to ſo many godly p. 42and wiſe forefathers, and good Saints, then to take part with a few ſciſmatikes and new fangled raſh heads, which will not ſticke to condemne and ouerthrow all good orders, be they neuer ſo ancient. Oh, this corrupt age, whither will it tend at the laſt?

Pro.

What we go about, or would make the world beléeue, God himſelfe is both witneſſe and Iudge: to him and to his holy truth we appeale. It is not like that God would forſake his Church ſo many hundred yeares: no hee neuer forſooke it one houre, no not euen when it ſeemed to be quite deſtroyed and waſted by Antichriſt. He neuer ſuffered all our forefathers to be ſeduced and to periſh: neither did he euer ſuffer any one of our godly forefathers to periſh: he forſooke Antichriſt and his brood, as a den of theeues, which forſooke him: he forſooke all thoſe which receiued not the louelove of the truth that they might be ſaued: and ſent them ſtrong deluſions to beleeue lyes: that ſo they might be damned: as S. Paule ſetteth it forth.2. Theſ. 2.2 Thess 2 This was neither all the forefathers, nor yet ſo many hundred yeres as you ſeeme to note: for the moſt part of your Antichriſtian religion hath not as yet ſeene ſixe hundred Sommers: And in thoſe times there were euer ſome which cried out of your corrupt doctrine and wicked maners He is the right wiſe man which doth not leaue to, nor depend vponupon the multitude of men: but doth cleaue to the p. 39word of truth, and to thoſe which imbrace the ſame, although they be neuer ſo few. If we condemne any thing but that which the Lord himſelfe doth condemne: and ouerthrow any orders but ſuch as he telleth vsus to be diſorders, although they hauehave had long continuance, you might wel tearme vsus ſchiſmatikes & new fangled: but ſeeing we do nothing but that which is warranted by his mouth, your blaſphemies are againſt him. This corrupt age (as you tearme it) if God proſper his Goſpell, wil neuer ceaſe vntill it hauehave pluckt downe the Romiſh monſter.

Pa.

By your owne words then they hauehave beene deceiued theſe fiue or ſixe hundred yeares: could all the world ſo damnably erre thus long? or is it to bee thought, that in all thoſe yeares, the moſt part, or as you ſay, almoſt all were caſt away, for they were alwayes very few in nūber which hauehave refuſed to obey the Church of Rome?

Pro.

Within that compaſſe of time which I named (as it is moſt euident by many ancient writers) the moſt part of your abhominable abuſes hauehave bene eſtabliſhed: yet ye cannot gather that all the world hauehave erred ſo long, becauſe we ſay your Romiſh Sinagogue hath: for you neuer had any more indeede but a corner of the world vnderunder your Pope: your dominion was only in Europe: as for Aſia and Affrica, which refuſed to be of your faction, p. 40they are far the greater regions as the countries of Grecia, India, Chaldea, Egypt, Ethiopia, and a great number beſides theſe. Let a man reaſon with you thus: either all theſe were deceiued or elſe you: ſo that of neceſſity you ſhall be forced to confeſſe, that God ſuffered ſo great multitudes to erre. But what abſurdity is there in that, ſeeing the holy Scriptures do ſhew that of old God choſe the ſeede of Abraham only to be his Church, & caſt off the Gentiles to walke after the vanities of their owne hart: theſe were a farre greater multitude then euer your Popiſh rout, and three times as many hundred yeares as you, they might alleage for the antiquity of their religion. Might not theſe hauehave obiected againſt S. Paul and the reſt of the Apoſtls: what, were all our forefathers for theſe thouſands of yeares caſt away? they neuer heard of this new religion of Chriſt, were there not a number of great wiſe men among them? Shal we forſake all theſe, and the faith which they hauehave taught vsus, in ſo many learned and excellent bookes, and follow a few of you? No doubt a great multitude of madde fooles, ſuch as you Papiſtes are, did reiect and condemne the Goſpell of Chriſt with that reaſon. I ſay ſtill therefore, that hee is wiſe which ſticketh faſt to Gods word, and not to the multitudes of men: nor to the antiquity which they can alleadge.

p. 41Pa.

It pleaſeth you to tearme vsus what ye liſt: but it is no matter, your words are no lawe. I could aunſwere you well enough, but I perceiue it is but to ſmall purpoſe: a man were as good to hold his peace for let neuer ſo great reaſon be alleadged, you are ſo blind that you do not vnderſtand it.

Pro.

Indeed you do but looſe your labour, if you thinke to perſwade me vntounto your mind: your ſtuffe is ouer courſe to entice any wiſe man frō the truth. Ye may ſeeme to old ſimple ſoules (whoſe eyes ye hauehave put out) to be excellent men, and they will nod, & ſooth your ſayings, when ye tell them this & that of forefathers, & what a goodly world it was, & y^t your religion hath euer ſince Chriſt bin continued: although indeed ye need not tell ſo great a lie to perſwade them: for it is euen enough to draw them wholy, to ſay but this, your father, your grandfather, and your great grandfather beleeued thus, will not you doe as they did? but ſhew your words once to a man, although a ſimple man, which hath but euen a little taſted, & hath but ſome ſmacke of Gods word, and he will iudge them by and by to bee counterfeit, and very bables, ſo that they can moue none but children & fooles. And therfore ſeeing as the Apoſtle S. Peter ſaith,2. Pet. 2.2 Pet 2 Ye ſhould beguile but vnſtable ſoules, and ſuch as Saint Paule doth ſay, are like children caried away with eueryevery puft of vaine doctrine:Epheſ. 4Eph 4 all men are p. 38to be exhorted to grow and increaſe in vnderſtanding of Gods holy will, that they may bee able to eſpie ſuch draffe and filthy dregges as you offer them, not to be wholeſome vntounto the ſoule.

Pa.

Then you are able to make a ſimple man to be ſo well lettered (as you ſay by the ſpirite) as to iudge in ſo high cauſes: you that can do ſo much, can be able to abſolue me in a great doubt, or elſe you ſhall ſhew your ſelfe to bee a very vaine man. Tell me then, how ſhall a man know whether he hath the ſpirite of God or not, and when he beleeueth this doctrine or that doctrine, and is perſwaded that the ſpirite of God doth teach him: how ſhall he be ſure as you ſay, that he hath the right ſpirite? all ſorts of heretickes doe perſwade themſelues that they hauehave the ſpirite. May not a man be deceiued, and ſuppoſe he hath the ſpirite of God, when it is a ſpirite of errour?

Pro.

Here is a great doubt, and a meruellous hard queſtion propounded: how a man ſhall know whether he hath the ſpirit of God, &c. This is ſo hard a caſe, that a man had neede to take long deliberation to make aunſwere. Well may this be one queſtion and doubt in your religion, and a matter ſo far beyond your reach, that you do ſuppoſe an impoſſibility: it doth manifeſtly declare y^t your acquaintance hath bene very litle or rather none at all with the ſpirit of God, that ye neither know him, p. 39nor yet can perceiue how he may be knowne? Cā ye know fire from water, or can ye know an Appletree from a Crabtrée?

Pa.

Ye hauehave made a great ſpeake. What if I can know fire from water, and a Crabtree from an Appletree? Doth this reaſon follow, becauſe a man doth know theſe, therefore hee may know the other? Is your compariſon equall? Theſe things wee ſee, feele, handle, and taſte, the other we do not. Ye muſt bring other maner of geare then this, or els a man may craue leaue to laugh at ye.

Pro.

I cannot let ye to laugh, if it be your pleaſure euen your belly full, but yet it muſt be at your owne follie. For the matter well waied and vnderſtood, peraduenture ye may ſhew your téeth, but not laugh very heartilie. Ye can know fire from water, and why, becauſe the nature and working of the one is contrary to the other: ye are able to know an Appletrée from a Crabtrée, becauſe ye taſte of the fruite, and they are the one ſwéete and the other ſower. Is there ſuch a working, & qualitie in the creatures that they may thereby be knowne? Is there ſuch certaintie to trie the trée and to know it by the fruite? And hath the ſpirit which made them, and preſerueth them, ſo loſt his power, and are his qualities and operations ſo weake, that he cannot bée diſcerned from the ſpirit of the diuell? Are his fruites ſuch as they cannot be diſcerned from p. 40the rotten fruites of the fleſh, and the workes of darknes?Epheſ. 1. Rom. 8.Eph 1Rom 8 Saint Paul ſaith, that we are ſealed with y^e holy ſpirit of promiſe, he willeth mē to walke after the ſpirit, & not after the fleſh: he ſetteth forth the fruites of the fleſh,Galath. 5. and the fruites of the ſpirit.Rom. 8.Rom 8 He ſaith, that this ſpirit doth beare witneſſe vntounto our ſpirit, that we are the ſonnes of God. This ſhould bee but a weake witneſſe if wee ſhould not bée able to know whether we hauehave him or not. But perhaps all theſe ſcriptures & many other which I could cite, hauehave not light enough in them for your blind eyes: and therefore I will ſhew ye the thing more fully thus. A man heareth the word of God preached,1. Cor. 12.1 Cor 12 it ſtriketh his heart and conuerteth him: wheras before he was as blind as a béetle, now he ſéeth y^e light: whereas before he had no louelove to the holy word of God, now his hart is inflamed with zeale and delight in it: whereas before his care was of this world, & couetouſnes did cauſe him gréedily to ſéeke vnlawfull gaine, now his mind is bent vponupon heauenly things, and after them he ſéeketh: whereas before he was full of adulteries, riot, wantonnes, vanity, now his wicked affections are tamed and altered, he much abhorreth ſuch filthines: and whereas before he could neuer ceaſe doing euill, he was neuer at eaſe, but when he delighted himſelfe in ſome vngodlineſſe: now he is a man quite changed, he doth much lament and ſorrow that euer he p. 41was ſo wicked to deſpiſe God: all his ioy is now to doe good workes, the feare of God is before his eyes: now féeling this wonderfull chaunge in himſelfe, that he is new borne to God, that he is a new creature, he knoweth right well that he is lead by the holy ſpirit of GOD, and that he hath wrought this new worke in him.

Pa.

It ſeemeth by your talke that ſuch as hauehave receiued the ſpirit are ſo ſure that they cannot be deceiued. To what purpoſe then was Saint Paul ſo carefull to warne the true Chriſtians to take heede? yea we may ſee, that there were diuers of them ſeduced. This is quite contrarie to that certaintie which you doe ſpeake of.

Pro.

There is no cōtrariety in theſe things: for if any were ſeduced, and drawne away frō the truth vntounto deſtruction, it is moſt certaine they were neuer ſealed with the ſpirit, but had ſome ſmall taſte. He laboureth with the other, to hauehave them grow ſtrong, to bee grounded and rooted in the trueth, not to bée as children, carried away with eueryevery blaſt of vaine doctrine: for the bleſſed Apoſtle Saint Peter deſcribing ſuch falſe Teachers as you,2. Pet. 2.2 Pet 2 ſheweth that they ſhall beguile vnſtable ſoules. Such therefore as will not bee ſeduced, neither by you nor any other heretikes, muſt abound in knowledge and grace: for ſo wee are willed. If the wiſedome of the holy Ghoſt be in vsus, and hath inlightened vsus, the ſubtiltie of the p. 42diuell, and the power of darkneſſe ſhall not ouercome vsus: the power of the holy Ghoſt is greater then the power of Satan, and for this cauſe we are ſure of victorie. If this were not, we could hauehave but ſmall comfort: we ſhould he but in woe caſe. It is not your greaſie pope which could helpe vsus: which himſelfe is ouercome of the diuell, and obeyeth his will.

Pa.

Well, well, for this matter, I ſay ſtill that your doctrine is new, that ye condemne all our forefathers: and whereas you would ſeeme to proue that it is the ancient Catholike faith, becauſe ye proue it by the Scriptures, I ſay you proue nothing: for the Scriptures can proue nothing without the interpretation of the Church, you can not interprete, neither can ye iudge, but the great ſhepheard, whoſe voyce ye ſhould heare, muſt giuegive the ſenſe: therefore I ſay ſtill that ye be heretikes all the packe of yee: and but that I ſpare ye I could bite ye a little better, I am ſorie ye bee ſo wilfull.

Pro.

When ye hauehave ſpent all your powder, then yée retire backe againe into your caſtle, which is ſo ſure as you ſuppoſe, that nothing can batter the walles: but when a man doth view them well, he ſhall finde them to be but painted clothes. For in very déed ye ſtand obſtinately and frowardly vponupon certaine bare affirmations. And when a man hath neuer ſo ſtrongly confuted and diſproued them, yet ye alleadge them ſtill. But let this go, and come p. 43to the reſt. Ye ſay ye could, but that ye ſpare me (or els that ye are muſled) bite me a little better, I feare not your teeth, for I truſt your biting will not ranckle, not becauſe they bée not venime, but becauſe I am ſo well defenſed, that ye cannot faſten your téeth vponupon me. But ſpare not, powre out all your poyſon, and doe your worſt.

Pa.

Yee doe but gibe and mocke at thoſe things which I ſpeake: it is euen according to your profeſſion, yee are deriders of good things and of the true Catholike faith: take heede, it is better for ye to repent, and to turne home againe to the holy Church, which ye hauehave and doe diſhonour. I ſaid that I did ſpare ye, and it ſhall appeare now, for I will touch ye a little neerer, and yet but with the trueth: not with all that I might ſay neither: for it were infinite to rehearſe all your abominable waies which ye walke in, and are to bee charged withal. A little ſhall ſuffice: I ſay by your wicked and carnall doctrine, euen your new Goſpell, ye teach all looſenes, and licentious libertie to the fleſh. As for example, ye denie the merits of good workes, ye teach that men are iuſtified by faith, without good deeds: ye teach Election, and Predeſtination, and denie freewill: and ſo by this meanes, the people are brought to hauehave no care of good workes but to liue as they luſt: for thus it doth follow, if we be iuſtified by faith alone, what neede we care for good workes? If we bee choſen and predeſtinate, and hauehave no freewill left in vsus, to p. 44chuſe or refuſe, then let God alone, wee cannot further nor hinder our ſelues, what ſhould wee eare, let vsus then ſet cocke a hoope, and take our pleaſure while we be here: this is your ſweet doctrine, thus ye teach.

Pro.

I néede not maruell to heare ye threaten to bite me: whē ye dare open your mouth to blaſpheme the Lord God, and to barke like a moſt filthie and prophane dogge againſt the moſt glorious Goſpell of Chriſt. Which (howſoeuer ye belie it) doth teach all heauenly puritie, and care of good workes. They bée concluſions of your owne framing, which neither wee teach, neither doe they follow of that doctrine which wée deliuer. The diuell and the fleſh reaſon thus: God hath choſen men, they hauehave no power of themſelues, they cannot deſerue or merite by their good déedes, but are iuſtified by faith alone in the merits of Chriſt, therefore let them care for no well doing, but walke after the carnall deſires and luſts of the fleſh: what ſhould they care, they can neither further nor hinder themſelues? But the holy ſpirit of God concludeth thus: God choſe vsus when wée were his enemies, of his owne good will, when wée were not able ſo much as to thinke a good thought: therefore wee are bound to yéeld all praiſe and honour vntounto him. He hath of his infinite louelove giuen vsus his deare and onelyonly be gotten ſonne, for to redéeme vsus, and to iuſtifie vsus: therefore p. 45we ought to ſhew our ſelues louing and kinde vntounto him againe, to ſerue, honour, and obey him, in all true obedience, and holy conuerſation. What ſhould I ſtand to recite teſtimonies of Scripture to proue theſe concluſions, and to ouerthrow yours, when as eueryevery poore man which hath any delight in y^e ſacred Bible, is able for to ſée them? They bee worſe then bruite beaſts which hauehave not learned this out of the word, that God hath choſen his people, hath by his frée grace redéemed and iuſtified them, to the end they may be holy, & zealous of good workes: although not to merit withall, which they cannot, yet to glorifie GOD, as Chriſt ſaith: Let your light ſo ſhine before mē,Matth. 5,Matt 5 that they may ſée your good workes, & glorifie your father which is in heauen. Likewiſe hée ſaith: Herein is my father glorified,Iohn 15.John 15 that yée grow and bring forth much fruite. We teach with S. Iohn, 1. Iohn 3.1 John 3he that worketh righteouſneſſe is borne of God, he that committeth ſinne is of the diuell. We teach with Chriſt,Iohn 8.John 8 that hée that committeth ſin, is the ſeruant of ſin. We teach with Saint Paul, Rom. 8.Rom 8that thoſe which are in Chriſt walke not after the fleſh, but after the ſpirit. We teach with S. Iames, Iames 2.Jas 2that that faith which is without good works is dead, & therefore cānot iuſtifie & ſaue a man. It is not faith but a dead picture and ſhew of faith, which the diuels hauehave. The true faith cannot bee without good workes. So that wee teach a p. 46neceſſitie of good workes: not to merit or to iuſtifie, but to ſhew foorth the fruites of our calling.

Pap.

Ye ſay that ye doe not teach libertie to the fleſh, nor giuegive men leaue to liue as they will: nor that your doctrine doth not deſtroy good deedes: but ſhall wee giuegive more credite to your words, or to the ſucceſſe, and fruites which we ſee to follow of your doctrine? He that will rightlie trie what your doctrine is, let him looke what fruites it doth bring forth. What better and more ſure triall can a man require then this? I trow ye will not refuſe to bee tried by this rule. Then let vsus come vntounto it, your holy doctrine, how commeth it to paſſe that it doth bring forth ſo many ſowre fruites? Was there euer more ſinne committed? VVhat fowle wickedneſſe is it which doth not flow in your ſtreetes? You may compare with the Sodomites, for your gluttonies, wantonneſſe, whoredomes, pride, couetouſneſſe, and ſuch like. VVhat good thing can a man ſee in your Clergie, which ſhould giuegive good example to others, and whoſe pure conuerſation ſhould be a paterne for other to follow? How many of them are there which are men voide of all learning and grace? who hauing ſpent their time lewdly, and conſumed their ſubſtance, when they cannot tell how to liue, ſtep into the miniſterie, or at the leaſt coueting to liue at eaſe, and ſhunning to worke, being ſcarce ſit for the plow, much leſſe for the pulpit, yet are admitted by your heauenly Goſpell, to p. 47be maſters in Iſrael. How many wanton fleſhly adulterers are there among them? How couetous, how worldly, how ambitious are your learned men? Doe not all men ſee how they preach and take on, vntill ſuch time as they be loden with liuings, and are got vp as high as they can, and then as though they had wonne the vpſhot, they put vp their arrowes into their quiuer, and vnbend their bowes: they neede not any further to trouble themſelues? But what neede I ſpeake, when the matter it ſelfe doth as it were make open proclamation? Your common people, ſeeing they hauehave no better examples, are giuen ouer to all kinde of naughtineſſe. If ye can proue this to be holeſome doctrine, which doth bring forth and allow ſuch things as theſe, I will be no longer a Catholike.

Pro.

If I ſhould anſwere ye onelyonly with this, that your euill fruits do farre paſſe ours, although it were moſt eaſie to be proued, yet ſhould I make but a ſlender anſwere: becauſe that in ouerthrowing you, we ſhould alſo cō demne our ſelues. For this I muſt néeds confeſſe with yee, that the doctrine which doth bring forth euill fruites cannot bée good. And a good triall I doe confeſſe of the doctrine, to be in the good fruits which it doth bring forth. When ye charge vsus that all abominable ſins do flow in our ſtréetes, we do alſo with great griefe acknowledge it. And this farre I allow your ſayings: but whē ye aſcribe theſe things to our doctrine, as the fruites, which it doth p. 46duplicate page p. 47duplicate page p. 48bring forth: there I doe diſallow ye, as a blaſphemer of God, and his moſt pure trueth. For it is not becauſe our doctrine doth allow, much leſſe bréede ſuch euils, that they bee among vsus, but becauſe our doctrine which is the holy word of God, is of the moſt men deſpiſed, and not knowne. The Lord by ſundry of his prophets doth complaine of the Iewes, and accuſeth them to bée worſe then the heathen: was therefore the law and doctrine which he had giuen them, to bée blamed? No, they refuſed to walke in his ordinances, and ſo doe the people at this day. The Lord bée bleſſed there are a number (although farre the leſſe number which lie as ſcattered cornes in a great heape of chaſſe) which hauehave imbraced the holy doctrine of the Lord, and doe expreſſe it in their liues, & do eueryevery day mourne for the abominations of Hieruſalem: and earneſtly doe deſire that the Lorde would purge it. If either our doctrine did allowe ſuch abuſes, or thoſe which doe ſincerely imbrace it, walke in them, then your wordes which yée vtter might hauehave ſome weight in them: but ſéeing it is otherwiſe, ye remaine ſtill with the reſt of your companions, a wicked blaſphemer of the holie word of God. As for that which ye vtter againſt our Clergie, it maketh nothing at all againſt vsus: vnleſſe ye could proue that our doctrine doth allow ſuch. But ye may ſée the contrarie, for our p. 49Goſpell doth allow none but learned Teachers, and godly Paſtours, which expreſſe the worde in their conuerſation: thoſe which Saint Paul alloweth vntounto Timothy and Titus, 1. Tim. 3. Titus 1.1 Tim 3Titus 1thoſe doth our religion allow, and none elſe. If any hauehave preached diligently, and when they are once come to promotion hauehave giuen ouer, it is plaine, they ſought themſelues, and not the Lord Ieſus: will ye lay the fault of ſuch vngodly men vponupon the doctrine. Ceaſe therefore, not to bee a true Catholike, which ye neuer were, but an obſtinate blinde heretike, without true vnderſtanding.

Pa.

Better is a bad ſcuſe then none at all. Forſooth the doctrine muſt not bee blamed, but the men: but I pray ye for your Clergie, why are thoſe things maintained? Are they vnknowne? If not, why are they borne? Anſwere this, and then ye ſay ſomewhat to the purpoſe.

Pro.

When I hauehave anſwered it you ſhall gaine little. For as I may moſt eaſily prooue that Gods word which is our religion, doth allow no ſuch miniſterie, ſo may I as eaſily ſhew, that all this corruption in the miniſterie came from you, wée may rue the time that euer your corrupt lawes and orders in matters for the Miniſterie tooke place in the worlde, becauſe the very Reliques of them are deadly whereſoeuer they remayne, and doe poyſon the Church of GOD: the moſt filthie and curſed abominations p. 50in the liues of the Miniſters, and other abuſes began among you. Ye hauehave no cauſe to boaſt of the goodneſſe of your Prieſts, nor of their learning, looke vponupon thoſe of them which at this day doe remaine in our Church, not as ſtanders, but as poore rotten ſtakes in an hedge: the people may here and there, (although twentie yeares and od hauehave greatlie waſted them) ſée how graue Diuines & godly Prelates were among you. As for the maintenance of ſuch things among vsus, I ſay ſtill we defie all ſuch abuſes, we allow none other miniſterie but ſuch as S. Paul deſcribeth. If any man doe defend an vnlearned miniſterie which is not able to guide the flocke of Chriſt, or to build vp the temple of God: or if any doe beare with vice in the miniſters, they doe follow Antichriſt, and not S. Paul: they are then become enemies of Chriſt, and fighters together with you againſt the Goſpell, deſtroyers and rooters vp of the Lords vineyard, which is to be dreſſed and kept by expert and ſkilfull labourers. You muſt learne therefore not to ſlander the moſt glorious Goſpell, nor to lay the blame of ſuch things vponupon it, but for to finde the fault where it is.

Pa.

I cannot denie, but that in words ye doe ſeeme for to allow ſuch as Saint Paul willeth they ſhould be: but when it commeth to the performance, ye doe vtterly faile: for hauing many learned men, ye hauehave none godly: all of them giuen p. 51ouer to ſome fowle vice or other: as to be ambitious, couetous worldlings, idle bellies, gluttons, proud prelates, vaine boaſters, or ſuch like.

Pro.

I perceiue your ſubtill craft well enough: ye deſcribe our learned men by theſe fowle vices, when ye meane your popiſh clergie. For from the top of yours euen to the bottome: euen from the triple crowne, vntounto the bare footed frier, al theſe vices, and a great number more doe abound. The Lord be bleſſed that in our Church and other Churches of his Goſpell, hath raiſed vp a great number whom he hath prepared and ſanctified by his ſpirit: which doe giuegive teſtimonie of their puritie, both before GOD and men: that they ſeeke not themſelues nor the world, but onelyonly to build vp the Church of Chriſt. As for other which are defiled with any of thoſe crimes which you doe name, I ſay ſtill, they bee not the workmen by whom God will build his houſe: they bee rather fit to ſet vp the kingdome of Antichriſt, and although they ſhould take vponupon them with neuer ſo great profeſſion to defend the truth, yet becauſe they profeſſe godlineſſe in word,Titus 1.Titus 1 and hauehave denied the power thereof, God doth not acknowledge them to be on his ſide: neither will any godly man account them true profeſſors.

Pa.

VVill ye allow none to be of your ſide, but ſuch as bee free from thoſe forenamed vices or ſuch like. Alas where is your Church become? p. 50duplicate page p. 51duplicate page p. 52where ſhall a man finde a companie of thoſe rare birds which you ſpeake of? take the people and their teachers together. VVho are they among ye which are not accuſed in ſome ſuch crime or other?

Pro.

I ſay ſtill, that becauſe God hath allowed none to bée his redéemed and choſen, but thoſe whom he doth alſo ſanctifie: we alſo doe allow none, neither of the teachers nor of the people, to bee the true friends of the Goſpell, but ſuch as doe yéeld and ſhew their obedience thereunto, and expreſſe the doctrine thereof in their conuerſation. How ſmall ſoeuer the number of ſuch ſéeme vntounto your bleared eyes for to bée, they are the true Church of GOD, and moe in number farre, then you could wiſh. I know if all ſhould be guiltie which are accuſed, then your ſaying were true: but when it is moſt euident that the more godly a man is the more he is ſubiect to falſe accuſations and ſlanders: euen as our Sauiour himſelfe was, and his Apoſtles, and other moſt godly which ſuccéeded them: your reaſon is very weake, when ye ſay all are accuſed: for, doth it by and by follow, that all are guiltie?

I confeſſe that our Church if ye vnderſtand the whole aſſemblie, is full of all wicked vices: but ſhall Gods word be blamed for that? There are a number among vsus which are of your broode, whoſe euill life is ſéene well enough: p. 53there are a very great nūber of méere worldlings, which doe not greatly eſtéeme any religion, although they ſeeme now becauſe of lawes, to allow and fauour our ſide, yet in their hearts they rather cleaue vntounto you: which is euident by this, that they can better away with the friendſhip and familiaritie of a ranke Papiſt, then of a zealous godly proteſtant: they will highly commend the one, and deepely condemne the other. Thus yee ſhall hauehave them ſpeake: ſuch a man, indéede I cannot praiſe him for his religion, I let him alone for that, he ſhall anſwere for himſelfe, I would he were of a better opinion, but for his behauiour there is not a better man. As for ſuch and ſuch, I cannot tell what to make of them, they are ſo holy, and ſo preciſe, that they hauehave forgotten all good fellowſhip. Thus you and your fauourers among vsus, agréeing in a carnall and euill conuerſation, and filling all the land full of naughtineſſe: doe charge the Goſpell and holy religion of God, which doth moſt ſeuerely condemne and curſe all ſuch abuſes. I will not ſtand in particular reciting of thoſe vices which you Papiſts do ioyne in, and allow in our carnall proteſtāts, it would be ouer long, a man might make a long booke of that matter alone.

Pa.

I confeſſe there be many which care not what religiō be, ſo they may liue in wealth & eaſe: but what are thoſe vices w^c we do ioyne with thē? p. 54Ye make a very liberall accuſation of great and foule matter, although ye ſay it would be too long to recite the particulars, to intreate vponupon them, yet ye may name them.