Certain Points of Religion, Text (2 of 2)

Certain Points of Religion · Text (2 of 2)

p. 44Ath.

I doe not like this ſo euil as y^e other when they runne from towne to towne ſo diſorderly.

Zelot.

I pray yee tell mee if there were a dearth of corne, howe far woulde yee goe to fetch corne, rather then ſtatue? I beleeue, as farre as the ſonnes of Iacob, when they went out of the land of Chanaan into Egypt.

At. I coūt him a foole, which wil not go a great way of to buy his corne, rather then ſtarue.

Zelot.

He is a ſtarke foole, which wil not go a great way rather thē ſtarue his body: but he is not a foole which wil not once ſtep out at his dore for to ſeeke the euerlaſting foode of his ſoule.

Ath.

Thoſe are not alike, wée muſt néedes ſéeke for to liue.

Zelot.

Noe, you cannot ſee them for too bee a like: you ſee well in thinges of this worlde, but for heauenly thinges, yee ſee nothing: but to come to the matter, it is great pitie in deede, that there ſhoulde be ſuch diſorder, as that men ſhould runne from towne to towne to heare ſermons: Our Sauiour Chriſte pitied them when they came into the wilderneſſe for to heare him, becauſe hee ſaith, they were as ſheepe without a ſheepehearde. But you and your mates are not grieued with the ſame pitie: yee are as like a malicious dogge as can …ee, which lyeth vppon the hay, and will eare none, neither will ſuffer the Oxe which woulde. Woe bee vntounto yee Scribes and Phariſees, yee Hypocrites, ye ſhut vppe the kingdome of heauen before men, yee enter not in your ſelues, neither doe yee ſuffer thoſe which would enter. Mat. 23, 14.

Ath.

You ſay they goe to ſéeke foode for their ſoules, and to learne for to know God: but they doe it of vaine glorie.

p. 45Zelot.

There be alwaies ſome no doubt, which doe not ſeeke of a ſyncere minde but of vaine glorie, and doe abuſe their knoweledge, and are vainelie puffed vp in themſelues, with an opinion of thoſe things which are not in them: but will you giuegive ſentence againſt all, becauſe ſome are ſuch: Is this a good argument? men giuegive almes for vaine glorie, men come to the Church, and pray of vaine glorie: Therefore almes and prayer are to be left: for doubtleſſe ſome doe thoſe thinges for vaine glorie, euen as our Sauiour Chriſte accuſeth the Scribes and Phariſees.

Ath.

But Chriſt biddeth vsus doe thoſe thinges. Nowe will yee prooue that we are commanded to doe this.

Zelot.

I knowe no place which hath in plaine woordes, Goe vntounto other countreis or townes for to heare preaching, and whie: becauſe the will of God is that they ſhoulde hauehave preachers come home vntounto them, and be appointed ouer them for to feede them. I might alleadge examples of good men which ſought after Chriſt, whome he did not forbid. Doe ye thinke when the Lorde commaundeth vsus to ſeeke him ſo earneſtlie, and that in the myſterie of his Goſpell, that a few miles ought for to ſtop vsus. Howe farre thinke yee men runne for a little earthly ſubſtaunce? Howe far doe they run on heapes, both men & women, vntounto feaſts, maygames, dauncings, plaies, bearebatings, and other ſuch vanities?

Ath.

Youth will be doing, ye muſt not blame them, they hauehave time enough to bee holy hereafter. I hauehave had as greate delight my ſelf ere nowe in thoſe things as one, but nowe I waxe olde.

Zelot.

I was ſure yee woulde allowe this kinde of running from towne to towne, this is no diſorder at all: howe many are there of yee, which crie out with open mouth, againſt ſuch as ſeeke after the woorde, and ſeeke for to trouble & puniſh them for ſo doing, which once open your mouth againſt theſe foule abuſes? Whereas ye ſay, youth will be doyng, ye ſay true, and ſo will many aged likewiſe, but doth it followe therefore that they muſt be ſuffered to do the thinges which are euill? In that yee ſay, they hauehave time enough to bee holy hereafter, therein you ſhewe yourſelfe to be a right worldling, a very epicure, an ignorant man: for thus your worldly Epicures doe ſpeake, youth will hauehave their race, let them alone, what ſhoulde young men and maidens doe with the ſcriptures? cleane contrarie p. 46vntounto that which God ſpeaketh by his Prophete. Wherewithall ſhall a young man clenſe his way? euen by taking heede thereto according to thy woorde. Likewiſe by Salomon in the booke of Eccleſiaſtes chap. 11. Remember thy creator in the dayes of thy youth. But now a daies it is a principal point of diuinitie, that youth may walke after the luſtes of the fleſhe, ſo long vntill through cuſtome of ſinning, they are ſo beſotted and hardened in their wicked luſts, & their concupiſcences are growen ſo ſtrong, that there can no grace enter into them, & ſo it ſeemeth for to be with you, for I dare warrant, you are able to tell a long tale of your youth trickes.

Ath.

Well, I am as I am, you cannot make me better, & I truſt ye ſhall make mee no woorſe. Ye ſpeake as though none coulde be good but ſcripture men.

Zelot.

None can be good but ſuch as feare God, ſuch as ſeeke for to obey him: None feare God, which ſet light by his ordinaunces and caſt them behinde their backes: None can obey GOD, but ſuche as doe ſeeke for to knowe and followe thoſe preceptes which hee vttereth in his woorde. None are godlie, but ſuch as are clenſed, and guide their wayes by the woorde. Hee whiche is of God heareth Gods worde.

Ath.

If they be ſo good and godlie, howe commeth it to paſſe then, that there is ſo much debate among them? for I knowe townes my ſelfe, whiche are euen deuided one part againſt another, ſince they had a preacher, which were not ſo before. This they gaine, that whereas before they loued together, nowe there is diſſention ſowne among them.

Zelot.

Nowe ye diſcharge your greateſt ordinance: I trowe yee hauehave nowe paide it home: It is harde if Satan cannot with this engine ouerthrowe and beate downe Preaching. But I pray you tell mee, can yee put fire and water together but they will rumble? Will yee hauehave light and darkeneſſe for to agree as companions together?

Ath.

What is this to the matter?

Zelot.

Woulde yee hauehave God and the Diuell agree together? woulde ye hauehave the godlie and the wicked for to bee at one? this ye muſt do, ye looke where the fault is to bee laide.

Ath.

I thinke the fault muſt néedes bee layde vppon the preaching, becauſe they agréed before that came.

p. 47Zelot.

If their agreement together before had beene good, then no doubt the preaching that ſhould breake it, could not be good: for one good thing cannot deſtroye another. But the former peace was not in GOD, but in the fleſhe: neither was it ſo great as you would ſeeme for to ſet it foorth, becauſe that the worldlinges are alwayes at ſtrife, and one readie for to cut anothers throate: but yet their hatred is ſo exceeding greate againſt the Goſpell, that in reſpect of the mind, which they carrie towards the profeſſors thereof, they ſeeme among themſelues to bee at peace, and one to louelove and make much of another.

Ath.

Where is the fault then for to be layde?

Zelot.

VponUpon the wicked which fret and rage againſt the word, becauſe it layeth open and diſcloſeth their filthineſſe, and bewrayeth them. For the light (as S. Paule ſaith) doth manifeſt all thinges. They pretend other excuſes, as though they hated the profeſſours for ſome euill conditions: but this is very euident, a blinde man may almoſt diſcerne it, that ſo long as a man is voyd of religion, and maketh profeſſion of no more then they; ſo long, although he be full, and ſwarme with greate vices, hee is an honeſt man, but let him follow the woorde, and be carefull for to amende, then there is not a lewder fellow vppon earth, diuers flaunders ſhall bee rayſed, thinges ſhall bee reckoned vp, which hee did ſeuen yeeres agone: and now they hate him like a dogge. Light is come into the worlde, and men louelove derkeneſſe more then light, becauſe their workes be euill. Will yee charge Chriſte and his Goſpell, becauſe as he ſayeth, hee came not to ſende peace, but a ſwoorde, to ſet the father againſt the ſonne? Math. 10. Or will yee laye the blame vppon thoſe which louelove the light? Will yee blame S. Paule and his preaching becauſe there was ſtirre and hurly burly almoſt whereſoeuer he came? Was he to be blamed, or the wicked infidels, which could not abide to hauehave their ſinnes reproued?

Ath.

There be ſome places where they hauehave graue and learned preachers, and yet there is no ſuch contention in their pariſhes: I like that wel.

Zelot.

You like that well: ſo doth your maſter alſo.

Ath.

What meane you by that? whome doe ye call my maſter?

Zelot.

Euen the Diuell, for he is content p. 48thoſe preachers ſhould ryde vppon his backe, becauſe he is ſure they will not ſpure▪ gall him: they be verie gentle riders. Doe ye not thinke, that if they ſhoulde ſet foorth Gods worde as they ought, and ſpreade the light: that all wicked men (of which their pari…he are full) would ſtorme and fret againſt them? the Diuell himſelfe woulde fiske about, if they ſhoulde ſpurre him but a little. But they can tell a ſmooth tale in the pulpit, garniſhed with ſome mery ſtory, for to make the people merry, or elſe ſome olde rotten allegorie: or ſome farre fetched matter out of ſome great writers, that the people maye be at their wits ende, and admit them. A mā would thinke to ſee the people come out of the Church blowing, that they were fedde as ful as tickes; when they goe home with emptie bellies. This I dare warrant, if it be not ſo, let me loſe both mine eares, that goe thorow the pariſhes of theſe graue and learned diuines, and except ſuch as runne to fetche their victuals other where, yee ſhall not find fiue among fiueſcore which are able to vnderſtande the neceſſarie groundes and principles of religion: and yet the people will ſay they bee excellent deepe men: But I louelove not thoſe▪ Welles whiche are ſo deepe that a man can drawe no water out of them.

Ath.

I ſée you like better of young raſh heades and troubleſome fellowes, then yee doe of graue ſtayed men: for nowe a dayes there are a number which take vponupon them to preach, which in deede do but prattle: and for my part, I wil beléeue none of them: but I wil rather giuegive credite to that which ancient learned men do ſpeake.

Zelot.

I do vtterly miſlike, that any raſhe head ſhoulde hauehave the office of preaching▪ which is a thing of ſo greate dignitie, as to be the mouth of God vntounto the people, to vtter the counſels and myſteries of the Lorde, and to teach them the way to ſaluation: and great diſhonour to God and his Goſpell it… is, if there be many ſuch, as you ſay there be: but if they be godly, learned, graue, diſcrete, and wiſe, and doe faithfully and zealouſly▪ diſpoſe the manifolde myſteries of God, thē the matter is not whether they bee young or olde: for the docttine which they doe teache and expound, is not their owne, but the doctrine of Chriſt, the authoritie is not of them, but of GOD which hath giuen it. But I knowe your meaning: you count all thoſe to be ignoraunt, and to prattle, which p. 49do not preach according vntounto your humor▪ ſuch as doe ſharpely inu…igh againſt your vanities: and thoſe which doe not, they be lear▪ned and graue men, let vsus beleeue them: and ſo yee looke not what God ſaieth, but what men ſay: and ſurely thoſe kind of graue men doe great hurt: I meane ſuch as carry a great ſhew of learning in them, and ſcarce: any are the better for it.

Ath.

And ſurely I thinke they do much good.

Zelot.

You thinke they do much good: but I know they do very much hurt: the blind and vnlearned Miniſters are hurtfull, thoſe which are popiſh prieſts doe hurt; they which follow euill vices, as drunken miniſters, ſwearers, quarellers, adulterers, gameſters, & ſuche like doe hurt, but yet theſe which you ſpeake of, do more hurt: I will tell you howe, where there is ſuch an one as thoſe aboue named, the people hauehave no great opiniō of them, for they can▪ eaſily ſay, alas our miniſter is not able nor meete for to teach vsus, and ſo they are willing to heare & to be informed by others: but thoſe which hauehave one of your profounde Clearkes, the people ſo muche hang vppon him, that they will heare none other: This they ſay, our preacher is as profounde a man as any of thē all: if we were out of the way, he would tell vsus, if ſo much …eaching were needfull, woulde not he teach vsus? If ſuch things were euill, would he vſe them? And ſo they conclude, that they care not for learning ought ſauing at his mouth, when as in deede he teacheth them litle or nothing, peraduenture he giueth them a cold collation once a month, and when a man ſhall take the proofe of them, he ſhall finde that they are no better then ſuch as hauehave a dumbe I doll to their ſhepheard.

Ath.

Is it not better for to hauehave a ſermon now and then, and to hauehave it a learned ſermon: then for to hauehave many without learning? I thinke one ſuch ſermon doeth more good thē an hundreth of thoſe flying ſermons.

Zelot.

I graunt thus much, that the word of God is to be handeled with great care, men are not to ſteppe foorth and to ſpeake raſhly, and without ſure and vndoubted knowledge of the thinges which they vtter.

Moreouer, there ought to be ſuch learning and diſcretion, as ſhall be ſufficient to open and to manifeſt the power and dignitie of the worde vntounto the conſciences of the hearers: he muſt be able for to make plaine p. 50the ſenſe of the ſcriptures, and he muſt apply it to the hearers which doth preach. For to handle the holy myſteries of God vnskilfully is a vice greatly to be condemned, & I thinke ſuch, although they preache neuer ſo often, ſhall doe but litle good. But I pray you let me know which you count a learned ſermon: and which ye call a flying ſermon?

Ath.

That is a learned ſermon, when the Preacher doth lay open the matter learnedly.

Zelot.

You meane when he is able to ſpeake much Latine, and to alleadge all ſorts of writers?

Ath.

I count thoſe learned fellowes in déed, I will not giuegive a button for thoſe Engliſh Doctors, whiche can alleadge no more but out of Paul and Peter.

Zelot.

It would bee a notable learned Sermon then, if the Preacher ſhoulde ſpeak… all latine.

Ath.

Then wee whiche doe not vnderſtande latine ſhoulde bee neuer the better.

Zelot.

If ſo little coulde pleaſure you, then no doubt a whole ſermon would edifie yee much. But ſuch vayne men as you. doe ſhew your vanitie, when ye looke more after thoſe thinges which ſhould feede your eares, then for to hauehave your ſoules conuerted. Is that to be vſed which cannot edifie at all, but ſerueth for a vaine ſhewe, and diſturbeth the minde and memorie of the diligent hearer? But let this goe, and let vsus ſee the other, for alleadging of writers, in this matter yee hauehave ſundrie graue men of your ſide, which count thoſe Sermons learned, which are ſet foorth with all ſortes of authorities, and thoſe which bring the bare worde out of the Bible, they make but verball Sermons: But doubtleſſe they may ſhewe ſome grauitie in their beard, for there is none in the matter.

Ath.

Are they not thereby knowne for to be learned men, euerye Plowe man nowe a dayes can alleadge out of Saint Paul.

Zelot

They are thereby knowne for to bee vnskilfull men, and ſuch as are not rightly inſtructed in the doctrine of S. Paule. They make a great ſhew of learning and yet want the knowledge of the dignitie of gods word. When as they bring in the ſayings of Plato, and Ariſtotle, as fellowes and companions with the oracles of God vttered by his Prophetes p. 51and Apoſtles, and as though there were greater and deeper matter in thoſe, then in the Bible, whereas all the heauenly myſteries and counſels of God are vttered, they ſticke not to count that vnlearned whiche is brought from thence: and greate learning to bee in the ſayinges of the other. For this cauſe they doe alſo ſeeke for to ga…iſh their ſermons, and as it were for to ſet them with pearle, when as in effect they doe nothing elſe, but as if a man ſhoulde mingle leade with pure golde, and claye with precious oyle. And becauſe yee ſpeake or learning▪ tell me what ye thinke, whether Saint Auguſtine or Saint Paule, was the better learned.

Ath.

You ſhoulde aſke that queſtion of ſuch as are learned: would y…e hauehave m…e tell y…e?

Zelot.

Is not hee which doth alleadge ſentences out of Auguſtine, Ambroſe, Hierome, and Cyprian, better learned then they which alleadge out of Moſes, Eſay▪ Peter, Paule, or Iohn?

Ath.

I tolde ye before that eueryevery man can alleadge out of theſe, & if I coulde ceade, and had a Bible, I coulde doe it alſo: but to alleadge out of the other, none can doe that, but ſuch as are great Clearkes.

Zelot.

Then it ſeemeth that they were better then Paul, and Peter, or Moſes, or els why ſhould they be eſtemed to be better learned which do cite them?

Ath.

If I might ſhoote my bolt▪ I thinke they were the l…arn…der, becauſe their writings are ſo pro…oun…e.

Zelot.

I woulde you did thinke ſo alone, but in deede the people hauehave been ſo deluded with ſuche as would make a ſhew of learning, that multitudes are of your mynde▪ which bringeth in a vile and ſhamefull abaſing of the moſt holy and ſacred Bible. But let me aske yee certayne queſtions. Doe yee not thinke that if the writinges of thoſe men were to be redde in our tongue, that euerie man then coulde bee able to alleadge out of them, as they doe out of the Byble?

Ath.

I thinke they might then bee able.

Zelot.

Doe yee ſuppoſe thoſe ſhoulde by and by be eſteemed for to be learned▪ whiche doe then alleadge ſayinges out of them?

Ath.

I ſ…e no cauſe why then they ſhould not be counted ſo.

p. 52Zelot.

Is hee learned in the Bible, which can alleadge many ſentences?

Ath.

A man may ſpeake muche & know little.

Zelot.

You might ſee likewiſe that men may alleadge ſayinges out of great Doctors, and yet themſelues be great Dawes: for hee is learned whom God doth teache for to vnderſtande the heauenly myſteries vttered by the Prophetes and Apoſtles▪ and in vttering them, doeth followe the ſteppes of Paule and the reſt. The Doctours had all their true learning out of the Bible: for in it is ſe…e foorth that▪ wiſedome whiche is aboue all.

Ath.

The Scriptures are darke & hard, and… therefore men nowe doe not vnderſtande them as the Doctors did. And for this cauſe, I hauehave heard preachers ſaye, they are to be vouched.

Zelot.

Thoſe Preachers might hauehave bin wiſer, then for to maintayne two ſo groſſe opinions▪ The firſt, accuſing the Scriptures of ſuch darkeneſſe, as though they coulde not b…e vnderſtoode, whereas in deede the principall and moſt neceſſarie poyntes, the Lorde hath ſpoken ſo clearely, that verye ſimple men maye bee taught for to ſee the plaine euidence of the worde. The other depriueth the Churche of the true interpreter of the worde, which is the ſpirite of God, as though the Lord did not now giuegive ſuch gifts as hee gaue to thoſe Doctors: which is a popiſh opinion alſo: for ſo long as God giueth his worde to the Churche, ſo long he giueth the interpreter of the ſame▪ although not in all ages alike: but whoſoeuer is not blynde, may eaſily ſee, that▪ in this age there bee as great giftes beſtowed vppon the Church, as euer were in any▪ ſince the time of the Apoſtles.

Ath.

Then you are one of thoſe whiche deface the olde Fathers, when yee will not allowe them for to … the▪ Sermons. To what vſe then ſhoulde … reade them?

Zelot.

That is a verye falſe accuſation▪ ſhoulde a man bee accuſed for de…ing the honour of the Lord Chauncellour, becauſe hee would denie him the dignitie and honor of the prince▪ Likewiſe ſhall a man bee ſay de for to iniu…ie or deface▪ the Doctors, becauſe hee will not giuegive them the dignitie whiche doeth belong vntounto God alone? The preacher is the mouth of God vntounto the people, and not the mouth of men? hee is not▪ for p. 53to vtter doubtfull matter and vncertay…e, but ſuche as may be moſt euident. He muſt ſay, and proue euen vntounto the conſcience of the hearer, thus God ſpeaketh, and thus hee meaneth. Hee can not ſay Auguſtine ſaith it, therefore God ſaieth it, Auguſtine ſayeth it, therefore it is vndoubtedly true: for Auguſtine might and did erre many wayes. But hee may ſaie, Saint Paule ſaith it, therefore GOD him ſelfe ſaith it, S. Paule ſaith, therefore it is vndoubtedly true: for looke what he ſaith, or any other Apoſtle▪ Euangeliſt or Prophete, God hath ſet it downe, by them, it is his, and not theirs: they are but the inſtrumentes which he vſed for to vtter and penne his will▪ his ſpirite in them ruled▪ the whole in this caſe, ſo that they did not, nor coulde not erre: nowe when the preacher doth laye open their ſaying, not he, nor they, but GOD▪ ſpeaketh: as they were the mouth of God for▪ to ſet it downe, ſo is hee nowe againe the mouth of God, for to recite and declare it▪

Ath.

The worde of God is certaine and▪ ſure, becauſe God cannot lie, but howe ſhall▪ I …we which is their … ſenſe of it … ſhall▪ I beleeue euerie man which doth interprer▪ the worde▪ ſhall I not the better beleeue … if he ſay it is not my interpretation, but S. Ierome he ſaith ſo, S. Auguſtine hee ſayth ſo I promiſe yée, he ſhall hauehave the greater credite with me, for they were other maner of men then hée.

Zelot.

I cannot but …ruell to ſee howe groſſe and dull your head is for to learne the trueth, and how readily you can bring out ſuch matters as this: ye ſpeake not of your owne head. I woulde there were no greater learned men then you blinded in this matter. But let mee ſhewe yee your groſſe errour▪ Yee ſay the word is certaine and ſure: but the interpretation thereof yee make doubtfull: but what are we the better that the worde of God is ſure and certaine, vnleſſe it be ſure & certaine vntounto vsus, which cannot bee except the interpretation be ſo? It is as good for you to ſay the word is doubtfull, as for to ſay the ſenſe is doubtfull: Nowe when as yee hang the ſenſe vppon men▪ can ye denie but that ſtill it is in doubt? This muſt needes ariſe in the minde, thoſe Doctors ſaid ſo, but they might erre, and therefore I am not certaine that this is the ſenſe. If this ſhall bee admitted in the Church, what ſhall become of that foreign ▪ or full certaintie of fayth, which the woorde of GOD doeth require p. 54to be in vsus, it is grounded vponupon the word of God, for it cannot ſtande otherwiſe.

Moreouer, faith is ſure what God meaneth, or elſe it is no faith: therefore ſuch as woulde hang mens ſaith vppon the authoritye of men, where they muſt needes ſtill be in doubt, and when they are at the furtheſt, they come but vntounto this, it is … like for to be true, becauſe ſuch notable men ſpeake it, doe not know a right what faith is, for that yee ſay, he ſhall hauehave the more credite with you, if he ſay, It is not my ſaying, but the ſaying of Auguſtine: therein ye were euen as good ſay, that your fayth is built vponupon men, and not vponupon God. For if ye doe beleeue, becauſe ſome great learned or Godlie man, telleth yee the matter, this is no true beleefe, for wee muſt bee fully perſwaded that God him ſelfe doeth tell vsus, or els wee be neuer the neere.

Ath.

Howe ſhall I know when GOD ſpeaketh, … which God ſpeaketh▪ you come and preach one way, another commeth and▪ hee doeth, proache another way, yee preache one contrary to another: you ſay God ſpeaketh, hee ſaith God ſpeaketh, whiche ſhall wee beleeue▪ Is not …ee to …e… beſt beléeued, which can ſhew that thoſe greate doctors are on his ſide.

Zelot.

See what a grounde you leaue vntounto, you know not when GOD ſpeaketh, not what God ſpeaketh: and therefore yee will hauehave ſome of the olde Doctors for to tell: are yee ſure hee telleth yee right? if ye be, it is becauſe hee ſheweth ye the worde of God, why he telleth yee ſo, the credite muſt bee giuen vntounto the word, and not to the man. But you ſaie yee can not tell when one doeth alleadge the worde in the true meaning, howe then, can ye tell when one alleadgeth the doctor in the true meaning: he which will falſifie the word of God in the Bible, he will not ſticke for to falſifie the meaning of the Doctor: you may ſearch the ſcriptures, to ſee whether the teſtimonies alleadged be ſo, as the men of Berea did, when Paule preached Act. 17. 11. You cannot, neither are yee commaunded for to ſearche the doctors. And vnleſſe yee ſee the manifeſt … of gods worde, ye are not bounde for to beleeue, but if it be plainlie ſhewed, that God hath ſpoken, then yee are bounde vnderunder the … of damnation, for to giuegive credite vntounto it. Chriſte ſayth▪ My ſheepe, heare my voyce, a ſtraunger they will not heare. Iohn 10. Alſo S. Iohn ſaith, brethren, beleeue not euerie p. 55ſpirite, but trie the ſpirites, whether they be of God. 1. Iohn 4. he therefore which ſaith, I cannot tell when the voyce of Chriſt is vttered, it is all one as if he ſhould ſay, I am none of the ſheepe of Chriſt, becauſe (as he ſaith) EueryEvery one of his ſheepe do knowe his voyce. He that ſaith, I know not which Preacher doth preach truth, and which falſhood, he may euen as well ſay, I am none of thoſe, to whome the holy Ghoſt ſpeaketh, and ſayth: Try the ſpirites whether they be of God, it is a generall precept giuen vntounto all Chriſtians.

Ath.

Ye ſhall neuer make mee beleeue that euerye man is for to iudge, whether the Preacher ſpeake true or falſe.

Zelot.

I know not what I ſhall be able for to make you beleeue, but I am ſure I can plainely ſhewe what yee ought to beleeue. Firſt, marke this, the worde came not from man, neither can a man teache it ye, vnleſſe God reueale it by his ſpirite: if it were the wiſedome of the worlde, or of the fleſh, then the ſpirit of the world which is in man and knoweth the ſecretes of man, could teache it: but becauſe it is the myſterie of GOD, none can make yee learne it, but the holy Ghoſte, which ſearcheth euen the deepe things of God, as S. Paul teacheth. 1. Cor. 2. 10 S. Iohn in his firſt Epiſtle, Chap. the ſeconde, hauing told them that there were euen then many Antichriſts, he comforteth them with this. You ſaith he, hauehave receiued an annointing from the holy one, & know all things. Like as therefore none of thoſe can learne, whō God doth not inlighten with his ſpirite: ſo on the cōtrary part all thoſe which are taught within by the ſpirit, doe feele when the doctrine which the ſame ſpirit hath taught, is vttered: he knoweth his owne, and he ſealeth it vp in their hearts and conſciences, which being inſtructed by him, muſt needes conſent thereto fully. For this cauſe there is great difference betweene ſuch as ſet all vponupon the authorities of men, and ſuch as preach, as S. Paul ſaith he did with the plaine euidence of the ſpirit, and of power, 1. Cor. 2. 4. he addeth the reaſon in the next verſe, that their faith ſhould not cō ſiſt in the wiſedome of men, but in the power of God. If faith may not hang vponupon the wiſdome of men, and therefore the intiſing ſpeech which mans wiſedome teacheth, is to be auoided in ſetting foorth the Goſpell, then can it not ſtand vponupon the authorities of men.

Ath.

Is it not lawfull in any reſpect for p. 56to alleadge them?

Zelot.

Yes, no doubt there are circumſtances, which may make it ſometime very needfull I ſpeake only againſt this, that they are alleaged when as we may alledge the ſame things out of the worde it ſelfe. And when they are alleadged, for men to builde their faith vponupon, or to make men thinke that there can be no certaintie in the interpretation of the worde, but where as they are made for to ſpeake: When as in deed the Preacher in his Sermon muſt come with ſuch euidence and make his proofe ſo plaine and ſo ſtrong, that it muſt needes conuince the conſcience of the hearers, in ſuch wiſe that of neceſſitie he ſhalbe forced for to ſay, vndoubtedly that which this man vttereth, is that which God himſelf ſpeaketh: for ſo ſaith the Apoſt. 1. Cor. 14. 24 If, ſaith he, all doe propheſie, and there come in an infidel, or one vnlearned, he is reproued of all, he is iudged of all: and ſo the ſecrets of his hearte are made manifeſt, and falling vponupon his face, he will worſhip God, confesſing that God is verily among you. This teſtimonie doth ſhew that the force of Gods worde vttered nakedly is▪ ſuch, that it conuicteth the hart of the infidel, and cōpelleth him for to confeſſe that God is with thē which ſpeak it.

The worde of God is deſcribed in the Epiſtle to the Hebrwes Chap. 4. 12. after this ſort: the worde of God (ſaith he) is liuely & mightie in operation, ſharper then any two edged ſworde, and entereth in vntounto the deuiding aſunder of the ſoule and the ſpirite, of the ioynts and the marrow, and is a diſcerner of the thoughts and intents of the hart. Men might vnderſtand by this, that by whom ſoeuer this ſword of the ſpirite be drawne forth, if it be rightly handled, it will pearſe through, and through both the bodies and ſoules of the hearers, and will moue eueryevery veine in the heart, euen of the wicked. So that he needeth not for to grind it, or make it ſharpe vponupon the grindſtone of Ambroſe or Hierom.

Ath.

Then you deſtroy learning, if yee take awaye the writinges of the Doctors, for they ſerue to no vſe: if it be as you ſay, why ſhould ſtudents read them?

Zelot.

There is great benefite in the reading of them, for to helpe vsus to the true vnderſtanding of the ſcriptures.

Ath.

If they helpe yée to vnderſtand the ſcriptures, wherefore do yée not when yee expound the ſcriptures, tell which is theirs? Yée robbe them, and take the glorie to your p. 57ſelues.

Zelot.

Nowe yee reaſon as buſſardlike as can be, ye may be a Doctour of Dunces, for this argument. Doth the Preacher come in his owne name, muſt he tell his owne will, or is he to ſeeke his owne glorie or the glory of any other man? If other hauehave holpen him to finde the knowledge of Gods will, which he muſt vtter, it is therefore become theirs, becauſe they hauehave ſhewed it vntounto him: If he now ſet it foorth in the name of the Lord alone, whoſe it is, doth he robbe them? For looke whatſoeuer a man findeth in the auncient writers in expounding, he is no further to beleeue them then they proue their expoſition out of the Bible: ſo that it continueth ſtill not theirs, but the Lordes▪ and if wee ſhoulde aſcribe it vntounto them, we ſhould robbe the Lorde, and bee theeues for other men. Therefore in this matter, wee muſt follow the precept which the Lorde giueth. 1, Peter 4. 11. He that ſpeaketh let him ſpeake as the wordes of God.

Ath.

Is that ſo meant, that it is not alow…to cite any thing out of other bookes beſides the worde?

Zelot.

I tolde yee before that it is not ſimply vnlawfull for to cite or alleadge a ſentence out of a Doctour. But the maner and ende of the dooyng of it is all: I ſay likewiſe that a man may in ſome ſorte alleadge a ſaying out of any Heathen or prophane Writer: for wee hauehave the example of Saint Paule Actes. 17. 1. Corinth. 15. Titus 1. Alleadging the ſayinges of prophane Poets. But wee muſt ſee to what end: doth hee reaſon thus, the Poet ſaith it, therefore are yee to giuegive credite vntounto it: no man woulde bee ſo fooliſhe as to make their wordes being Heathen men, to bee of ſuch authoritie: but he ſheweth that euen their owne Doctors conſented with him in thoſe things. And therefore a ſhame, and foule reproche for them too bee ignorant of the ſame. When the Papiſtes doe charge vsus to be gone from the faith of the olde Fathers, although we are to confute them this way, namely, by ſhewing their treacherie and lying, when we are able to prooue by the writinges of the auncient Fathers that in the chiefe pointes they fully agree with vsus: yet this is not the way which God hath appointed and ſanctified for the conuerſion and education of his people: this engine is ouer weake to reare vp the Temple of the Lorde: we muſt take heede we leaue not the mightie worde it ſelfe, and leane vntounto a tottering piller: Saint Paule ſheweth the power of the worde. 2. Corinth. 10. where hee ſaith, although we walke in the fleſhe, yet wee warre not after the fleſhe: for the weapons of our warrefare are not carnall, but mightie in God for to throwe downe holdes: which he expoundeth in the verſe which followeth, to be the imaginations and eueryevery high thing which is exalted againſt the knowledge of God, and eueryevery thought, which (hee ſaith) they leade captiue vntounto the obedience of Chriſt. There is no power nor anye authoritie can doe theſe thinges, but that which is in the word of God it ſelfe. Which is to be made ſo euident by the Preacher, that it may bring this thing to paſſe.

The miſerable experience in our time of ſuche as flie from the ſtrong power of the woorde, and fight with the weapons of menne, maye reache vsus, becauſe it doeth manifeſtly appeare vntounto all whiche hauehave eyes too ſee, that they are not ſtrong enough to throwe downe holdes, and to leade captiue vntounto the obedience of Chriſt the rebellious thoughtes and imaginations of mens mindes: they cannot ſhew a man by them conuerted ſincerely & throughly from errours and euill maners: by alleadging the authorities of men. It was not the practiſe of the auncient and godly fathers in their Sermons for to leaue the teſtimonies of the mightie word, which is able to rent the ſtony rocke in peeces, and to cleaue to the authorities of weake men, which were gone before them. But what ſhould a man ſay? The worde is thought to bee of no power vnleſſe it bee ſtrengthened otherwiſe.

But let vsus leaue this and come backe againe to ſome of your other matters. I remember ye did lay this as a great accuſation againſt the preachers that they medled with predeſtination.

Ath.

I did ſo and not without cauſe, for they do great hurt thereby vntounto many, when they teach ſuch thinges.

Zelot.

What hurte can yee ſhewe, which commeth by preaching of predeſtination.

p. 59Ath.

If a man bee choſen for to bee ſaued, let him doe as euil as hee can hee ſhall not bee damned: and if a man be appointed before hee was borne to bee damned, let him doe neuer ſo much good hee can not bee ſaued: and therefore when yee teach this doctrine, ye were euen as good tel the people that they may liue as they luſt: Let them neuer heare teaching, to what purpoſe ſhoulde it ſerue?

Zelot.

Howe proude and preſumptuouſly bolde ignoraunce doth make a man? It might ſeeme to bee a rare thing that a mortall man, which is but claye and duſt, yea a rotten Carion ſhoulde aduaunce himſelfe againſt God, euen the Lorde of infinite wiſedome and glorie, but that wee ſee it dayly for to be common.

Ath.

Doe not accuſe me for to be proud, I would I were as frée from all other faults if it pleaſed God.

Zelot.

If ye were as ſicke, as ye be proude, a verie litle meate woulde giuegive yee your ſupper. But I knowe you doe not ſee your pride.

Ath.

I maruell why ye ſhoulde counte … proude, ye ſee how plaine I goe.

Zelot.

You thinke that pride is in the duplicate page p. 59duplicate page coate, when it is in the heart, a man may hauehave a kinges hearte in his breaſt, and yet a beggers coate vppon his backe. There is cauſe why yee doe not goe gay, yee are not able: for take the ragged deſt begger in the worlde, and giuegive her the ſame wing whiche the great Ladies hauehave, and yee ſhall ſee her flie the ſame flight. There is pride againſt GOD, and againſt men, and you are in the deepeſt of them, euen agaynſte God.

Ath.

Prooue that, becauſe yée condemne me ſo ſore.

Zelot.

Yee take your ſelfe for to bee wiſe, and the Lorde vndiſcrete and vnwiſe. For yee charge him with follie when as yee ſay this doctrine doeth ouerthrowe all, and yet hee hath expreſſed it in ſundrie places of his woorde. If it bee ſo exceeding hurtfull, then ſurely Chriſt was to be blamed: Saint Paule, and ſaint Peter with the reſt of the Apoſtles were verie vndiſcrete, becauſe they hauehave ſette it foorth. It ſeemeth that it had been good for them to hauehave taken aduiſe of the deepe heades of the worlde, whiche might hauehave foretolde them the daunger whiche woulde followe, and hauehave p. 60ſaide, Maiſters take heede howe yee deale with ſuche doctrine, it will turne yee vntounto diſcretite. O fooliſhe wiſe fleſhe, this matter is ouer farre beyonde thy reache, thou canſt neuer come within the ſmell of it.

Ath.

Smell, or ſmel not, let me heare yée aunſweare the matter.

Zelot.

You ſuppoſe that your reaſons are vnaunſwerable, and that cauſeth yee to bee ſo freſhe and readie, but alas man, your halfepenie is no good ſiluer, yee are in a wrong boxe, I will ſhewe you howe childiſhly ye erre.

Forſooth ſay you, if God hath choſen a man to ſaluation before hee was borne, then let him doe as euill as he can, hee ſhall not bee damned: and whereas the nature of man is prone and readie to ſeeke after the libertie of the fleſhe, this doth open a doore vntounto him, and a wide paſſage vntounto all euill, becauſe he needeth not to care what he doth, it is appointed before hande what ſhall become of him.

This mightie and inuincible reaſon of yours hath neuer an eye to ſee with all, and although it ſeeme for to hauehave good legges yet is it but an olde Criple: be not led by it for yee ſhall both fall into the ditch. Did yee neuer heare what S. Paule ſayth, Epheſians. Chapter I. 4. theſe are his wordes, as he hath choſen vsus in him, before the foundations of the worlde were layde, that wee ſhoulde bee holy and without blame before him through louelove. Howe ſtand theſe two thinges together, when you ſay if men be choſen they may liue as they luſt, and God ſayth by his Apoſtle, that hee hath choſen them for to bee holy and blameleſſe in their conuerſation. And this is vndoubtedly true, that thoſe whom God hath predeſtinate to bee heires of glory, hee hath ſealed them with the holy Spirite, as yee maye reade in the ſame Chapter. They are freed from the bondage of ſinne by the ſpirite, they walke in the ſpirite, they are led by the ſpirite, they ſhewe forth by the fruites of the ſpirite, that the fleſh with the luſtes and concupiſcences thereof is crucified in them, and that they are regenerate and … againe of the ſpirite, and ſo become newe creatures in Chriſt, ſinne is abhominable vntounto them, they hate & loth it no leſſe then deadlie poiſon, they pant and breath to p. 61be wholy ſet free from the remnantes of it. Righteouſneſſe is deare and precious vntounto them, their ioye and heartes delight is in it. They ſigh and grone, becauſe they can not reache vntounto the perfection of it. The word of God doth plainely teach, that the electe are thus as I hauehave ſhewed: and yet men ſay that election taketh away all care of Godlye life.

Ath.

I like not this, that men will ſaye, they know God hath choſen them: howe can they tell? Can any man tell what God will doe with him? Did God euer tell them, that they are elected:

Zelot.

Howe ſhoulde you like of this, when as yee like of no goodneſſe? Howe ſhoulde you which are but a naturall man, iudge of thinges ſpirituall? You thinke a man can not tell what GOD will do with him: becauſe you are blinde and ſee not the way: ye ſuppoſe all other are ſo: you are an Infidell, or els ye might plainly heare GOD ſpeake in his woord, and tell which ſhall be ſaued, and which are in the way to damnation. Doe ye ſuppoſe that it is vncertayne when the ſcripture telleth a man howe he ſhall knowe that he is choſen, if the woorde of God tell him he is choſen, hath not God himſelfe then tolde him? Read the firſt Chapter of the ſeconde Epiſtle of Peter, and there yee ſhall ſee how a man ſhall knowe certainely that he is elected, and that hee ſhall neuer fall. For if a man feele that GOD teacheth him by his ſpirite, and reneweth him by repentaunce, he is ſure (becauſe God ſayth ſo) that he is choſen to eternall life: if at any time hee feele the grace of GOD weake in him, then doeth hee doubt and ſtagger, but yet his fayth getteth the vpper hande. On the other ſide, when a man liueth in ſinne, and obeyeth vnrighteouſneſſe: God telleth him plainely that he is in the way to damnation. And therefore all thoſe which do not finde in them ſelues the ſpirituall birth at the leaſt begunne whereby they may aſſure them ſelues that they be choſen: May certainly ſay, that as yet their ſtate is damnable.

Ath.

Howe can yee ſaye their ſtate is damnable, ſo long as they beléeue? Can men do more then beléeue?

Zelot.

They doe not beleeue: for if they beleeue, then are they ſure that GOD loueth them, what is it elſe which they beleeue? if they knowe they bee in fauour with God, it is becauſe he choſe them in Chriſt. p. 62If they doubt of Gods fauour then doe they doubt whether God heareth their prayers, & therefore they ſhall not receyue any thing at the handes of GOD, as ye may learne in the Epiſtle of Saint Iames. Chapter 1. verſe 6, 7. and although manie of the faithfull doe doubt & ſtagger oftentimes, yet they are not like the vnfaithful which cōtinue in the ſame, but they get the vpper hande, they ſtriue by prayer, & by al other meanes which god hath appointed, to ſtrengthen and increaſe their faith, their knowledge, their repentance, and ſo farre to growe in grace, vntill they come to aſſurance that God hath choſen them. As for the wicked they know of no ſuch faith, that a man may atraine to aſſurance of his election: they labour not about anie ſuch matter, but continue ſtill in their blinde doubtes, ſetting all vponupon hazzard: and as for their doing what they can, it is nothing, they cannot but ſinne, and therefore be damned, howeſoeuer they ſeeme for to do good workes, yet before God they are no good workes, becauſe they proceede not of faith, but from the fleſh▪ they are not grafted into the true vine, Chriſt, and for that cauſe can bring forth no fruite. Ioh. 15.

Ath.

If GOD had choſen men before … worlde …o bee ſaued▪ Wherefore did Chriſt dye for to ſaue them? If they ſhoulde bee ſaued before, his death was more then needed. Wherefore ſhould men bee taught, wherefore ſhould they pray… all theſe are in vaine.

Zelot.

You are like vntounto a man whiche doeth make ſtrife and debate betweene brethren and friendes: you woulde ſet prayer and teaching, and the death of Chriſt, together by the eares with Gods election: but doe what yee can, all theſe will agree well together, they bee ſo vnſeparably knit in friendſhip. God hath choſen men for to be redeemed in his ſonne. For the ſcripture ſheweth that we are choſen in Chriſt. He hath choſen men to bee inſtructed and called by preaching the woord, he hath choſen men for to call vponupon him and to worſhip him, in holynes and righteouſnes, all the dayes of their life.

Ath.

Ye ſpeake much of preaching, preaching as though it were ſo needful: Can they make the worde of God better then it is? Is there not enough ſet downe in the Bible for men to reade, wherefore ſhoulde they adde more? Can not men reade that? Is not reading preaching?

Zelot.

Now ye ſeeke new ſtarting holes▪ p. 63There is ſome Colt ſo wilde, that he will trouble halfe a doſen light men of foote for to driue him: hee will in at eueryevery gappe, turne at eueryevery lane, and out at eueryevery gate. Euen ſo I can liken the reaſoning with ſuch as you are: yee hauehave ſo many by ſhiftes, ſo many cauils, ſo many turninges, that ten of the beſt learned in this lande, ſhall hardly bee able to keepe ye in the way. But wee muſt not leaue yee thus but bring yee into the way againe. Preaching is not ſo needefull, they can make the worde of God no better then it is: why man they doe not preache for to make the worde better, but for to make you better. There is enough ſet downe in the Bible, but you vnderſtand little enough of it. Men may reade it, as a great number doe which peruert it, and are nothing bettered by it, becauſe they ſeeke not helpe for to vnderſtande it. Reading ſay you is preaching. Truly then I knowe a man which hath a little daughter that is a trimme Preacher. I perceiue our lande is full of Preachers: but yet in deede not ſuch as Saint Paule deſcribeth. For the little girle is not apt to teach, able to inſtruct, to exhort, to conuince, not to deuide or cut the worde of God aright, nor to open the Myſteries of it. If yee leape ouer many of theſe ditches, yee will breake your necke in the ende: ye are a very skilfull man, when yee take expounding and applying the worde of God, for to be adding: for ye aske why they ſhould adde.

Ath

Are not men allowed which are but readers, euen by the learnedſt in the lande? Doe yée finde faulte with the Biſhoppes? or are yee one of thoſe whiche doe not allowe of Biſhops? for ſuch fellowes there be nowe a dayes.

Zelot

I would ye ſhould know that I am none of thoſe which diſalow Biſhops: when as the worde of God doth ſet it downe to be a worthie worke: it is a very reuerende office, & exceedingly they are to be blamed, which doe contemne it, or deface it. God hath ordeined the office of Biſhops in his Church, for to gouerne and feede his people: ſuch as would aboliſh this ordinance of God, doe reſiſt God, and are enemies vntounto the Church of Chriſt.

Ath.

By my faith, I like yée the better for that.

Zelot.

I like you neuer the better for your ſwearing.

Ath.

I am not ſo preciſe as too make p. 64any account of ſwearing by my faith.

Zelot.

I thinke ſo, for faith is no more account made of, then as a packehorſe, all is laide on his backe.

Ath.

I pray God we may doe no worſe, and then I hope wee ſhall doe well enough: are you without ſinne? I doubt not but yee will commit as great offence to GOD as this, or euer the weeke bee ended. Pull the beame out of your owne eye: If eueryevery man woulde looke to himſelfe, there ſhoulde not bee ſo much finding faulte one with an other.

Zelot.

Where learne ye that prayer in the ſcripture? The Prophet Dauid, Pſalme 19. Prayeth to be cleanſed from his ſecrete ſinnes, although they bee neuer ſo ſmall. Where learned ye to ſpeake after this ſorte, no woorſe, and that yee hope then to doe well enough: Is it nothing to breake ſo ſtraight a rule of Chriſt? Doe yee not thinke that children dying in their infancie, before they can ſpeake or woorke are damned for leſſe ſins. I ſpeake of ſuch as are not of Gods Church. When as they hauehave onelyonly originall ſin▪ You know not from how euil a roote this …inne doth ſpring: neither doee ye know the fouleneſſe of ſinne, and therefore ye cannot tell how much God doth abhorre it, & condemne it. For this cauſe, being as full of filthy vices and prophane ſinnes as ye cā be thruſt, and of ſuch in deede as God doth curſe and hate: becauſe they ſeeme ſmall vntounto you, ye ſuppoſe ye ſhal do wel ynough. What if I hauehave greater in me or that I ſhall cōmit greater as you ſay before the weeke be ended, doth that excuſe you? I hauehave many ſecret ſinnes in me, which I do not ſee becauſe I do not perfectly vnderſtād the law of God: for theſe I doe earneſtly intreat the Lord to make them knowne vntounto me, by giuing me more perfect vnderſtanding of his will, and alſo to giuegive me power for to caſt them out. I hauehave alſo many ſinnes in mee which I ſee and knowe, that cleane ſo faſt, that I cannot vtterly caſt them foorth: notwithſtanding I hate and abhorre them, I am wearie of them, I fight againſt them, I grone and ſigh in my heart with ſorowe for them, I feele no ſweetneſſe in them: for they are more bitter then Gall vntounto my ſoule. I am exceeding glad when I can ſuppreſſe them, I hauehave profeſſed and vowed a continuall warre againſt them, and although I preuaile not ſo farre as to bee vtterly ridde p. 65of them, yet I labour by meditation in gods worde, and by heartie prayer, to bring them vnderunder, that they raigne not ouer me, nor that I may not agree with them: and although I be not able to become perfect, yet with al the might I can, I ſtraine and breath to come as nigh perfection as I can: my deſire is good to reach it, and although I find that I come many degrees ſhort, yet I approche nearer and nearer. This is true repentance, this is that which S. Paule ſetteth forth in himſelfe. Rom. 7. Philip. 3. With this I know God is pleaſed▪ without this there cānot be any ſeruice done to God.

Ath.

I like not when men will ſpye a mote in another mans eye.

Zelot.

Our Sauiour Chriſte doeth not forbid to eſpie a mote in an other mans eye, for we are commaunded to admoniſh one an other, what ſoeuer it bee wherein we doe amiſſe: but ſuch as you, which can not abyde to be admoniſhed, doe euer alleadge that ſaying of Chriſte, as though hee had ſpoken it vntounto this ende, that one ſhould not admoniſh an other. It is a …oule hypocriſie for a man to be curious in reproouing ſmall faultes in other, and make no conſcience of great and foule vices in him ſelfe. Euerie man ought to looke vntounto himſelfe, and eueryevery man is bound by the woorde of God, and charitie, to looke vntounto others, and to conuert them from their ſinnes if they can. To conuert a ſinner from going aſtray, and to ſaue a ſoule from death. As S. Iames ſpeaketh. Chap. 5. verſ. 20. And ſo to couer a multitude of ſinnes, is a bleſſed thing, and ought, to moue men with diligence to vſe charitable admonition.

Ath.

If they woulde doe it in charitie, I could like of it: but men hauehave no louelove, they doe it becauſe they are preciſe and captious.

Zelot.

Let a man ſee yee commit any foule crime, and reproue yee, your aunſwere is by and by, yee may not iudge: when as the matter is plaine and doth iudge it ſelfe: Now when a man doth admoniſhe you, according as God commaundeth, yee are bolde with the ſame mouth, which ſaide, ye ought not to iudge, for to iudge him, affirming that he doth it of a captious and quarrelling minde: the thing being ſo exceeding good of it ſelfe: who made you able for to ſee into the heart of a man, and p. 66to find that he doth it not well. You are thoſe of whom the Prophet ſpeaketh, Woe be vntounto thoſe which call good euill, and euill good, If he be a man ſpotted with vices himſelfe, & doth reprooue another, not caring for to amende, ye may boldly ſay he doth it of an euill minde: for can he be charitable vntounto other men, to ſeeke their conuerſion, and not to bee charitable vntounto himſelfe to ſeeke his owne ſaluation: Or can he hate vngodlineſſe in other, and not hate it in himſelfe?

Ath.

Well, the beſt of vsus all may bee amended, wée hauehave all infirmittes: what would yée hauehave more then this, at the laſt for to call for mercy: If a man be ſorie and aſke God forgiuenes, is hée not euen as well as they which are the moſt preciſe: the merciemercy of GOD muſt ſaue all: and what would yée hauehave a man care for more then to bée ſaued: I praye God I may hauehave time to repent in the ende.

Zelot.

Here is good ſtuffe, here is ſound diuinitie: I may well terme this reaſon euen the porter of hell, for it openeth euen the wideſt▪ gate, that a thouſande may goe in on a ranke.

This is true, that the beſt of vsus all may be amended, and that we hauehave all infirmities: but yee doe wickedly applye it, for when yee ſhould reaſon thus, the beſt may be ameded, the moſt holy are ſpotted, and therefore as Saint Paule doth teach, they muſt indeuour for to proceede forwarde: for the woorde of God willeth men to ſtriue and contend euen againſt all vncleaneſſe, and neuer to ceaſe, but to come as nigh perfection as is poſſible. But you reaſon quite contrary, that becauſe the beſt are ſinners, therefore men are to make ſmall account to amende. Ye ſhould think thus, the moſt godly hauehave neede to ſorrowe and mourne, and proceede in repentaunce, therefore howe much neede, hauehave ſuche as are groſſe ſinners. For our Sauiour Chriſt doth ſhew, Iohn 8. That whoſoeuer committeth ſinne, is the ſeruaunt of ſinne: Nowe ſo long as a man is the ſeruaunt of ſinne, ſo long is hee not the ſeruant of God, for no man can ſerue two ſo contrary maſters. Saint Iohn ſayeth, he that committeth ſinne, is of the Diuell. Where learned yee this, that a man may continue in his vices all his life, and at the laſt call for mercy? God commaundeth men to repent ſpeedely, and not to put of from day to day? Hee p. 67threatneth exceeding ſharpely, in the firſt Chapter of the Prouerbs, that when hee hath called and cryed vntounto men for to returne from their euill waies, and they hauehave refuſed, that at the laſt, they ſhall call and not be hearde: hee will laugh when their deſtruction commeth vppon them: they ſhall ſeeke him, but not finde him. Doe you thinke that when God hath called and wee refuſe, that we ſhall not call and he refuſe?

Ath.

The ſcripture ſayth, that what time ſoeuer a ſinner doth repente him of his ſinne, God will forgiue him.

Zelot. If the ſcripture ſpeake any thing to the comfort of the ſorowfull heart, the Deuill doth teache the impenitent for to abuſe it to their hardening. It is moſt true that at what time ſoeuer a ſinner doth repent, his ſinnes are all forgiuen, but is it in a mans choiſe for to repent when hee will, can hee take a newe heart when it doth pleaſe him can he hauehave the newe birth, and a ryght ſpirite when he will? It is God which doth create a man a new, or maketh him a new creature in Chriſt, when it pleaſeth him. A man needeth, not for to care for any thing but to be ſaued, but that is not ſo eaſie a matter as men thinke. Striue for to enter in at the ſtraight gate (ſayth Chriſt) for manye ſhall ſtriue and ſhall not enter. The waie is narowe and the gate is ſtraight whiche leadeth vntounto life, and fewe there bee which find it: and if this be true whiche you ſay, that a man may liue in ſinne all his life, and at the laſt be ſaued euen for vtteling a fewe wordes: Then the way is broad and eaſie, who cannot finde it, who almoſt doeth not walke in it▪ But alas, it is a broken ſtaffe whiche men doe leane vntounto. God is verie mercifull, but not to thoſe which deſpiſe his Goſpell, for vengeance belongeth vntounto ſuch: it is vnpoſſible (ſayth the holy Ghoſt. Hebr. 2.) that ſuche ſhoulde eſcape. And although ye hauehave neuer ſo long time to repent, if God doe not worke it in yee, you ſhall die in that blindneſſe and hardneſſe of heart in whiche yee hauehave liued: wee muſt ſeeke in our life time to bee begotten by the worde: for the ſcripture ſaith God doth beget his children by that.

Ath.

Shall not man hope for to repent at the laſt?

Zelot.

Marke what repentance is: and try whether yee can repent nowe, it ye cannot, what moueth yee to thinke that yee ſhalt be able then?

p. 68Ath.

I hope I doe repent now, and ſhal doe at the ende.

Zelot.

Repentance is a returning home vntounto God from all euill vices and corrupte deſires which are in the fleſh and in the heart. To be renued by repentaunce, cannot be but where a man is renued in knowledge, for that is one part of the image of GOD which muſt be reſtored in vsus: Reade in the 4. Chapter to the Ephe. from the 17. verſe forwarde. If a man continue in darkeneſſe, he doth not repent: He which committeth his foule ſinns ſtill, although it bee but in the deſire of his heart, hath not repented. He which doth not feele ſorrowe and griefe, and hath not a broken and contrite heart, and a ſorowfull ſpirite, hath not repented: hee which doth not eſchue euill and doe good, hath not repented: All theſe are taught by the worde, for that is it by whiche wee muſt clenſe, our wayes: and therefore yee may boldly ſay, that he which learneth not out of Gods woorde to repent, cannot repent: for although if it were poſſible hee coulde repent for all other ſinnes, yet this one ſinne, to ſet light by the inſtruction of the Goſpell, will make ſtill worſe then they of Sodome, as our Sauiour doth tell vsus▪ Math. 11.

Ath.

Will you condemne thoſe whiche call for mercy at their ende whiche neuer repented before?

Zelot.

Wee may not pronounce vppon any one man, becauſe GOD onelyonly ſeeth what is in man. But yet wee may boldely goe ſo farre as the worde of God doeth leade vsus: and by it wee may ſee what GOD requireth and what God doeth condemne. We may ſee that the common and generall repentaunce which all profeſſe at their ende is not ſo muche as a ſhadowe of true repentaunce: repentance cannot be in a man, eſpecially vppon a ſodaine, but he muſt needes feele a wonderfull chaunge in hym ſelfe: he muſt needes bee able for to ſay I hauehave repented, I knowe and feele that I am a newe man, and therefore becauſe I knowe moſt certainely that there is repentaunce in mee, I knowe moſt certainely that I ſhall be ſaued: for GOD promiſeth ſaluation vntounto euerye one whiche doeth repent. In the common repentance men feele no ſuch thing: But are ſtil (as they may be well enough) in doubt of ſaluation.

Ath.

Shall not all ſuch as call vppon God be heard? ſurely I dare not but thinke they ſhall.

p. 69Zelot.

I am ſure becauſe the Lorde doth ſpeake it. That whoſoeuer doth call vppon him ſhall bee ſaued. But yet yee muſt put this in, that then they muſt pray in fayth, as for the prayers of a wicked man which doth not repent, and therefore hath not the true faith they are no prayers before GOD, although hee crie lowde, or call neuer ſo often: for vntounto ſuch the Lorde ſpeaketh in the firſt Chapter of the Prophete Iſaiath, When yee ſtretch forth your handes, I will turne away mine eyes from yee. Alſo if yee multiplie your prayer I will not heare. Likewiſe the holy Ghoſt ſaieth by Solomon in the Prouerbes that the ſacrifice of the wicked is an abhomination. And in the ſame booke it is ſaid. He that turneth away his eare from hearing the lawe, euen his prayer ſhall bee abhominable, and therefore in the latter ende of the fourth Chapter of Eccleſiaſtes, he aduiſeth men when they come into the houſe of GOD, to take heed to their fe…ete: and to bee readier to heare then to offer the ſacrifice of fooles. For (ſaith he) they knowe not that they do euill. Nowe ye ſhall finde many m…n▪ …rye in their miſeries and make great confeſſion of their vngodly life: but yet without true repentaunce, as it is manifeſt, for ſo ſoone as the proſper againe, yee ſhall ſee them returne to their olde by as: if they had truely repented, then ſhoulde it euer continue with them, manie that liue in malice, ſo ſoone as they be daungerouſly ſicke, will be readie to aske forgiueneſſe, and to forgiue all the worlde. They knowe it booteth not to beare malice anie longer, but ſo long as they be able to craulle out of their bedde, and to ſtande vppon their legges, yee ſhall ſee their olde withered malice (as it ſeemed) ſpring a freſh againe, which is a ſtrong proofe, that they neuer truely repented, howſoeuer they thought they did. And euen ſo is it in all other ſinnes, they ſeeme vntounto men for to repent, they aske▪ GOD forgiueneſſe, but yet the hearte abideth ſtill the ſame that it was before God: there is no chaunge in them before God: they hauehave not put of the ſinnefull bodie of the fleſhe: there is no chaunge in them before God: howeſoeuer they ſeeme to be chaunged before men. This counterfet repentance maketh men bolde all their life to deſpiſe the holy worde of God, which ſhoulde inſtruct and guide them: it cauſeth them at their ende not to feare the wrath of God, no… the vengeance to come: becauſe p. 70they thinke GOD is ſatisfied with this repentaunce, and alſo becauſe they knowe not their ſinnes, they ſuppoſe that they are but ouer the ſhoes, when as they are drowned in the goulfe of vncleanneſſe ouer heade and …ares.

Ath.

God helpe vsus if it bée thus how ſhall poore men doe then?

Zelot.

Men muſt applie them ſelues all their life to ſeeke for the knoweledge of GOD, to increaſe in ſaith and repentaunce, that when they come to their ende, they may hauehave a teſtimonie of conſcience, that they hauehave feared God.

Likewiſe, when yee come to a ſicke man and aske howe hee doeth, if he can but ſay, as it pleaſeth GOD, yee aunſwere, that is enough neighbour, holde yee there: If he ſay I hauehave offended GOD, and I praye GOD hauehave merciemercy vppon mee, there needeth no more as you thinke. Yee ſhoulde teache them the Lawe, that they may ſee howe they hauehave offended God, yee ſhoulde ſhewe them the fearefull curſe, and horrible …gea… due vntounto ſinne, that ſo they may …ken with remo…e and ſorrowe▪ yee ſhoulde ſhewe them alſo the glad tidings of the Goſpell, and what Chriſte offereth vntounto the penitent ſinner: yee ſhoulde teache them what holines GOD requireth at their hande, howe they may come vntounto it, what promiſe they hauehave made vntounto GOD of it in baptiſme. Yee ſhoulde inſtruct them in all the principall pointes of the fayth. That ſo they may hauehave the renewing faith which ſhal iuſtifie and ſaue them.

Ath.

What difference can you ſhewe betweene thoſe whiche are taught as you woulde hauehave them and ſuch as hauehave knowledge, they can no more but repent, call for merciemercy, and beleeue? And this doe they aſwell as the other.

Zelot.

You thinke there is no difference, but there is this difference, that the one part doeth beleeue and repent in deede, and the other but in woord: as our Sauiour Chriſt Matth. 15. alleadgeth the ſaying of God by his Prophete. This people drawe neere mee with their mouth, and honour me with their lippes, but their heart is farre from mee.

Ath.

That is meant when a man doth ſpeake with his mouth, and meaneth not with his heart, but theſe hauehave a good meaning in their minde.

Zelot.

It is meant when a man approcheth p. 71with his mouth, and hath ſtill a wicked heart, and an euill conſcience, for thoſe do remooue a man ſo farre from God, that no blind intent can make him neere vntounto him. God looketh for great things in the heartes of thoſe which call vponupon him.

Ath.

I thinke God accepteth the prayer of the honeſt poore man as well as of any other, and will heare him as ſoone, as hee will heare the prayer of thoſe which knowe moſt, and are the beſt learned.

Zelot.

God is no accepter of perſons, hee heareth the poore as well as the riche, the vnlearned as well as the learned, ſo that their prayers bee made aright. But if yee ſpeake of thoſe honeſt men which are ſo called, & yet are voide of all knowledge of Gods woorde, and of religion, it is an eaſie matter for to prooue that their prayers are not good.

Ath.

Can yee hauehave anye better prayer then the Lordes prayer, when they praye that, can ye require more?

Zelot.

There can be no better prayer then the Lordes prayer, and he which prayeth that right muſt needes bee ſaued. But let mee aske you this queſtion, what if a man pray the Lordes prayer with his mouth and regardeth it not in his heart, ſhal his praier be good?

Ath.

His prayer cannot be good, he doth but mocke God.

Zelot.

Then tell me this, a man prayeth thus, hallowed be thy name, in worde he ſeemeth to deſire that the name of God may be ſanctified and honoured: he goeth his way, and blaſphemeth the name of GOD, or heareth it blaſphemed and neuer careth, rayleth vponupon his worde, diſhonoureth him, doe yee not thinke that hee made a ſweete preyer? In the like maner he ſaith, thy will bee done in earth as it is in heauen, he goeth away and is ſo farre from deſiring to do the will of God, that hee neuer careth for to knowe it. Whereby it is euident that he little ment with his heart that which he ſaid with his tongue.

Moreouer, hee would ſeeme in woordes to craue of God, that hee and others might doe the will of God in earth, as the Angels doe in heauen: and yet tell him when hee breaketh the will of God, and his aunſwere is, I am not ſo preciſe, I am not ſo curious, I will not bee ſo holy, you are full of the spirite: and then hee will euen reproche that p. 72which he ſeemed for to pray for. And theſe are the prayers of thoſe poore honeſt men which you thinke God heareth as well as the prayers of any other. I might goe thorough all the petitions and finde the like. It is exceeding great pitie that men want inſtruction: for a great multitude doe truſt to their pratling prayers, when as they doe not either vnderſtand what they lay, or els meane the contrary.

Ath.

If a man labour all the wéeke truely and honeſtly, and vppon the Sabboth day come to the Churche and make his prayers, ſhall wée ſay God regarded not his prayer, becauſe hée doeth not vnderſtande what he prayeth: his intent is good, hee doth his good will: hee hath a wife and children to prouide for, hee muſt followe the worlde, and let preaching goe, or elſe hee ſhall begge: and ſo longe as hee doth hurte no man, but dealeth vprightly: I thinke God doeth require no more at his handes. Such as hauehave naught elſe for to doe let them ſéeke for knowledge.

Zelot.

Yee are like vntounto a hedge which is full of bryers and pricking thornes, a man cannot lay holde on yee vnleſſe yee bring his hedging gloues, and his bill. Yee hauehave many thinges to ſhroude your ſelfe vnderunder, and to keepe the truth from touching of ye, as the Lorde in his worde hath ſet foorth the whole armour for a Chriſtian ſouldier: ſo likewiſe Satan doth by ſuggeſtion teache men to arme themſelues againſt the Lorde. But ye muſt be ſtript of your armour, at the leaſt ye muſt be ſhewed that it is no armour of proofe. Ye ſay that if a man labour trulye & honeſtly all the weeke, thoſe labour ſo which do it not alone for neceſſitie, but becauſe God requireth that men ſhould painfully trauell: and which hauehave the woord of God as a lanterne for to guide their ſteppes: for what ſoeuer a man doth, if it bee not in obedience of God in his worde, it is ſinne. To pray vponupon the Sabboth for faſhion ſake, is very deteſtable, becauſe we are in continuall danger, and in continuall neede, and want helpe continually from the Lorde, vppon whome our ſaluation doeth dayly depende: we are commaunded to pray continually, or to hauehave our heartes watching thereunto. To pray without vnderſtanding, is not praying, but mumming. You ſpeake as though it were a thing which God doth allowe, that men ſhould ſeeke more after the world them p. 73after God: & ſo make the world their God. And becauſe they hauehave wife and children to prouide for, therfore they cannot ſeeke to know God. As though we were not commanded to ſeeke firſt, the kingdome of God, that is to ſeeke that chiefly, and more then the worlde, and then GOD hath promiſed, that all theſe things ſhall be caſt vponupon vsus. Howe ſhall any man be excuſed when God maketh this promiſe vntounto all: as he doth perfourme it vntounto as many as doe truſt him. I hauehave been young (ſaith the Prophet) and nowe am old, yet did I neuer ſee the righteous forſakē, and his feede begging their bread. When ye ſay hee muſt follow the worlde, and let preaching goe, ye were euen as good ſay, hee muſt follow the Deuill, and let God go. And if an ignorant man coulde come ſo farre as to deale vp rightly, and to hurt no man neither in woorde nor neede, (which notwithſtanding they come nothing neere) yet this woulde not ſerue the turne: for there is a God who will be knowne and woorſhipped in that religion which he teacheth. HaueHave ye ſo fleſhly eyes that ye can looke no higher? Doe ye thinke God requireth no more but an honeſt and ciuill conuerſation towardes men. God requireth euen of the poore labouring man that he ſhould (if he will be bleſſed) meditate in his Law, or his doctrine day and night. Pſalme 1. Likewiſe when he ſaith that the man is bleſſed which feareth the Lord, to the ende we might know which that man is, he addeth immediatly, he hath great delight in his commaundements. But the moſt part of your honeſt men nowe a dayes, delight ſo much in the word of God, and meditate ſo much in it, that they care not a button though they neuer heare it: they louelove it and ſet as much by it as they doe by an old ſhoe. And are not ſo forwarde as you doe allowe, to ſeeke for the knowledge of God, when they hauehave naught els for to doe: for you thinke yee graunt a liberall allowance to God.

Ath.

Would yée make me beléeue that God doeth require that men ſhoulde leaue their buſineſſe: when they be poore and hauehave charge of children, and giuegive themſelues to reaping, and hearing of preachinges. Would yée hauehave him let his children ſterue?

Zelot.

God doth not require that men ſhould leaue their buſineſſe, but as they hauehave times to ſeeke for the thinges of the body, p. 74ſo alſo are there times, for to ſeeke for heauenly thinges: God hath not made men for this life, but for the worlde to come. He hath ſet the promiſes of eternall life before them that ſeeke thē painfully in his worde, men muſt not be as bruite beaſtes all for the belly.

Ath.

What if there bee no preaching where a man dwelleth?

Zelot.

What if there be within three or foure mile?

Ath.

Shall hée runne thrée or foure mile after that:

Zelot.

Yee goe about three or foure mile to the market for to prouide meate for the carion body, but yee woulde not allowe a man vppon that daye whiche is the market day for the foode of the ſoule to goe halfe ſo farre. Yee are the children of the worlde, earth, wormes, thoſe whiche labour for the meate which periſheth, but will not laboure for the meate whiche indureth for euer. Iohn. 6. Yee louelove the worlde and the things which are in the world, and therfore as Saint Iohn ſayth in his firſt Epiſtle, The louelove of the Father is not in ye, ye cannot ſerue God and Mammon.

Ath.

Let them runne that will, when I ſee them agree better together, then I wil heare them: when they cannot agree among themſelues, they are vnwiſe which hearken vntounto them.

Zelot.

Ye might be a counſellour for your graue wiſedome, who is able to aunſweare you in this matter: when yee daſh forth ſo ſtrong an argument grounded vponupon ſo great reaſon, and infallible principles: but I pray ye what woulde ye hauehave done if ye had liued in the time of Ieremie the prophet, and alſo of other Prophets, when there were the Prieſtes and the rulers in the temple, with many which tooke vponupon thē to be prophets, and to ſpeake in the name of the Lord, ſet againſt a few of Gods meſſēgers? What would yee hauehave doone when Chriſt preached, and the Phariſees and Prieſtes, and all the learned againſt him? Would yee not hauehave hearde Paule, becauſe he diſagreed with the falſe Apoſtles? The Scriptures hauehave foretolde that there ſhall be hereſies, ſectes, and falſe teachers in the Churche euen to the worldes ende. Your great skill hath taught yee to make ſo good a choyce of the time when yee wil heare, and to take ſo long a day, for I warrant yee it will not be two weekes before p. 75the day of doome. Ye ſhoulde ſpeake plainely and ſay. Yee neuer meane for to heare, and that ye woulde wiſhe all other for to bee of the ſame minde: and then ye ſhoulde be little troubled with Gods woord. Crie out againſt the preachers, but let your meaning be againſt preaching it ſelfe. The Diuel is a very skilfull woorkeman, he doth not teach his ſchollers to ſay, fie vponupon Gods woorde: but to finde excuſes how to ſhift themſelues from hearing the ſame.

Ath.

If they woulde teache men howe to beleeue better, then I coulde be content for to ſaye as you ſaye: But they woulde driue men into diſpayre, and bring them out of beliefe with the feare of damnation.

Zelot.

This wedge hath been driuen often enough alreadie, neuertheleſſe, becauſe yee are ſo knottie, and crabbed a peece to cleeue, I will giuegive it one blowe more: the matter is hainouſly taken that men preache ſharpely in reprehending the vices whiche nowe raine. They are nowe ſaide to preach nothing but the Lawe, which in deede cannot conuert a man from vngodlyneſſe, but of it ſelfe is the ſtrength of ſinne: they are ſaide to be murtherers, becauſe they preache but the dead letter whiche doeth kill. No doubt whoſoeuer doth preache no more but the Lawe, and ſo damnation, is no miniſter of Chriſt. But here lyeth all the matter, men woulde be flattered and ſoothed in their ſinnes, they are loth for to here of any iudgement of God againſt wickedneſſe: and as they bee like vntounto the people of the Iewes when the Prophetes were ſent vntounto them, corrupt and corrupting themſelues, and grudging againſte the Meſſengers of God when they threatened vengeance, and willing them not to preache ſo, but to preache pleaſunt thinges: euen ſo are there nowe whiche lay pillowes vnderunder their elbowes and preache peace, peace, when all is corrupt in their liues, and therefore there can bee no peace. Hee whiche ſhall reade the Prophetes, ſhall finde the ſtate of the Churche then, and ours nowe, in all theſe thinges verie like: Firſt, all foule vices ouer ſlowing, as among vsus: Secondly, the people preſuming vppon their blinde faith, and counterfet repentaunce, and hypocriticall prayers, as they doe nowe: Thirdely, the Prophetes ſent of God exceeding ſharpely p. 76reproouing them, and denouncing the iudgementes of God againſt them: Fourthly, the people repining there at, and thinking them ſelues hardely dealte withall: deſiring to bee more tenderly handeled as to heare pleaſaunt thinges, and to hauehave them propheſie of wine and ſtrong drinke: Laſtly, certaine Preachers ſit for the turne, healing vp, and ſmoothing vp all with ſweete woordes, and telling them all is well, all is well. Hee which doeth but lightly reade ouer the Prophetes, and cannot finde all theſe thinges, is but a ſimple man. In like manner, he whiche doeth dwell among vsus at this day, and perceiueth no ſuch matters, is but a ſtraunger.

Ath.

Naye you that are preciſe Puritans doe finde faulte where there is none: you condemne men for eueryevery trifle.

Whereas ye are but men, and hauehave your infirmities as well as other: yet yee woulde make your ſelues as holye as Angels.

Zelot.

I abhorre the errour of the Catheriſtes or Puritans, I confeſſe that I am loden with corruptions: if that be your meaning, to charge mee with that opinion, which is wicked and diueliſhe. But if yee take the name Puritane for one which hath more care to obey God, then the common ſort, and therefore laboureth to keepe himſelfe pure and vnſpotted of the worlde (as Saint Iames ſpeaketh) then looke to it, that yee be not founde among thoſe which reuile not men but God. If ye meane by preciſe men, thoſe which are ſo ſcrupulous, as to make ſinne where there is none, as your wordes doe playnely ſhewe, then doe I vtterly renounce that name for to be called preciſe, and I diſalowe ſuch fond perſons, whoſoeuer they bee. But I knowe you meane thoſe which walke preciſely as Saint Paule willeth, and doe take heede to their waies: not condemning men, but admoniſhing them, not in trifles, but in waightie matters: although you count them trifles. The commaundementes of God (at the leaſt ſome of them) are but trifles with you. You ſee not, nor conſider how greate the Lorde God is, and therefore ye dare affirme diuers ſinnes done againſt him to be but trifling and ſmall, ye meaſure not ſinne with a true meaſure, when ye doe meaſure it after the rule of a man. Ye doe not knowe wherefore there is eternall death threatned againſt euerie ſmall ſinne: yee maruell p. 77at that, becauſe yee are blinde and cannot iudge howe great he is, whoſe will is diſobeyed. Let me ſet it before ye: Doe ye not ſuppoſe that if one of your degree ſhoulde ſay ſome thing againſt yee that were a reproch, as for example, call ye knaue, were it not an offence?

Ath.

I thinke I may well ſay hee doth offende, for he ought not to deale ſo with his neighbour.

Zelot.

Then hee is worthie ſome rebuke for his euil tongue?

Ath.

Yea, and to confeſſe his faulte alſo.

Zelot.

What if he ſhoulde giuegive ſuch language to a Iuſtice of peace? or to ſome inferiour Magiſtrate? Ye will confeſſe the fault is greater: becauſe it is againſt a higher perſon?

Ath.

No doubt the fault ſhould be greater, and hée were woorthie to ſit by the héele… for it.

Zelot.

What if he ſhoulde doe it to a noble man, as one of the chiefe Counſellours of the Prince, were it not then muche greater?

Ath.

I muſt needes confeſſe ſo: and ſuch a villaine were woorthie for to loſe his …ares.

Zelot.

What if hee ſhould doe it vntounto a Prince?

Ath.

Hée were worthie then for to loſe his life.

Zelot.

Doe ye not knowe that GOD is in an infinite degree aboue Princes, they are but duſt before him?

Ath.

I know that well enough.

Zelot.

Wherefore hauehave yee not the reaſon then for to conſider, that thoſe ſinnes which ſeeme to bee verie ſmall, are exceeding great, becauſe they bee done againſt his infinite Maieſtie. the ignorance of this point cauſeth manye men for to make but alight account of diuers ſinnes, and euen to laugh at them: likewiſe to mocke at thoſe whiche make conſcience of them, counting them ouer preciſe and nice. Such men doe not knowe the Lorde aright in his moſt high maieſtie: They knowe not the waightineſſe of his lawe, euen in the leaſte point in it. And it is ouer childiſhe whiche they obiect againſt the godlye, hauehave not you infirmities? are you not men? What woulde they gather hereby, that becauſe men hauehave infirmities, therefore they may not reproue ſuch as wilfully and careleſly offende. The reſt of your ſpeech is a meere ſlaunder, a p. 78deuice whiche the Deuill hath founde out for to ſhame true godlineſſe. For let a man hauehave but the tenth part of the zeale, whiche the woorde of God requireth, or neuer ſo litle a ſparke of indeuour for to walke vprightly, and he ſhall hauehave it caſtin his teeth, that hee thinketh him ſelfe halfe a God, and taketh him ſelfe to be as holy as an Angell.

Ath.

A number doe ſo indeede, or elſe they would not bee ſo readie for to checke euerie man: and eſtéeme ſo well of them ſelues.

Zelot.

Doeth that bone ſticke in your throte ſtill, take heede that it doe not choke yee. Yee take it for a ſore checke, when any doth refuſe to take part with you in your wickedneſſe: following the counſell of Saint Paule, when he ſayth, hauehave no fellowſhip with the vnfruitefull woorkes of darkeneſſe, but rather reprooue them. Light is come into the worlde, and men louelove darkeneſſe more then light, becauſe their woorkes bee euill. Howe well they eſteeme of them ſelues you can not tell: this is moſt certaine, that although a godlie manne hath nothing of his owne for to boaſt of, becauſe it is the grace of the Lorde, whiche hathe putte the difference, yet yee may well thinke better of him ſelfe, then of the wicked. And ſuch as hauehave no regard to ſerue God but in a fewe wordes.

Ath.

Doe yée thinke that there be none which are ouer preciſe: which woulde ſéeme for to be ſo holy, and yet are not.

Zelot.

The Diuell is a cunning woorkeman, when he ſeeketh for to bring the trueth into diſcredite, he can play on both hands, hee can deceiue on eueryevery ſide. And therefore he hath ſome vaine and curious braines which are ouer preciſe in thinges whiche are no ſinne, paſſing by foule and great ſinnes in themſelues, which is a great vanitie, and vnderunder colour of godly zeale, which they would ſeeme for to hauehave, they couer their bitterneſſe euen of wormewood, and Gall: which vncharitablie ſometimes they caſte foorth vppon ſuch as are more Godly then them ſelues. But this ought not for to bee any diſcredite vntounto ſuche as are zealous and earneſt againſt thoſe thinges whiche are vices in deede, although they ſeeme for to bee neuer ſo ſmall: as for example, when one doth ſweare as you did, by his faith, or by bread, or fire: tell him of it: what is his anſwere: ye are ouer preciſe: I meane no hurte p. 79neither to God nor men: I ſpeake earneſtly, I doe not lie: If it bee a ſinne, it is but a ſmall ſinne. But ſee how groſſe an excuſe this is, he breaketh the commaundement of God, and yet he meaneth no hurt: Chriſt our great teacher doth ſtraightly vrge it, and yet hee ſaith it is but a ſmall ſinne, a thing not to be regarded. How much diſhonour is this to our heauenly Maſter, to ſay that hee taught things ſo ſmall and trifling, that they are not to be regarded?

Ath.

Well, it is happie that we ſhalbe ſaued by faith in Chriſt, although we bée ſinnefull: hee hath ſhead his blood for vsus: I lookefor to be ſaued by him, what would yée hauehave more?

Zelot.

It is happie in deede for thoſe which hauehave faith, for they are cleanſed from their ſinnes. But ſuch as you ſeeke no more but to make the death of Chriſte as an eaſie ſcore to ſet all vppon: for yee are like to the man which thinking that hee ſhould hauehave all of his hoſtis for ſcoring vp, tooke very liberally: ye thinke the reckoning is now ſo eaſie, that ye may ſet cocke a howpe, all is paide for. But if I ſhoulde trie your faith by the woorde, ye ſhould ſee that yee hauehave little enough: and therefore your ſcore will faile in the end, and grow to a greater payment then ye ſuppoſe.

Ath.

Whatſoeuer you ſay, yée ſhal neuer driue mee from beléeuing in Chriſt: nor all the ſort of yee.

Zelot.

I would not for tenne thouſande worldes be the man which ſhould driue any one from the faith in Chriſte, I doe ſeeke to bring ye vntounto the faith in Chriſt.

Ath.

Yee may kéepe ſuch ſeeking to your ſelfe, and let me alone: I beléeue as well as you, take care for your ſelfe, you ſhall not anſwere for me.

Zelot.

Nowe ye are ſure I trowe, for this night, ye hauehave ſtopped my mouth, and giuen me a bone to gnawe vponupon. But I pray ye ſhall not I anſweare for you in no reſpect? What if I ſee ye are blinde and ready for to fall into the pit of eternall deſtruction, and will not put foorth my hande for to ſuccour ye, is it not to be laid vntounto my charge, that I wanted louelove? Therefore I can eaſily pull your bridle out of my mouth: and bee ſo bold as for to meddle with ye: wee will a little trie, becauſe ye bragge ſo ſtoutly, howe well yee beleeue. Ye beleeue Chriſt was crucified, and ſuffred vponupon the Croſſe: but are yee able for to prooue that yee beleeue in p. 80Chriſt crucified?

Ath.

I ſay I doe, are you able for to diſprooue me?

Zelot.

Sinne is not ſlaine in ye, therfore ye do not.

Ath.

Howe prooue yée that ſinne is not ſlaine in mee?

Zelot.

Becauſe it doth raigne in ye, therfore it is aliue.

Ath.

I knowe not what yee meane by that.

Zelot.

Yee are ledde by ſinne, ye delight in it, ye hauehave not mortified the luſts and concupiſcences of the ſame. And therefore yee hauehave not learned Chriſt, as S. Paule ſpeaketh. Epheſians 4. Ye hauehave not put of the old man, and put on the new man. The death and paſſion of Chriſt hath not ſlaine ſinne in yee, for to beleeue in Chriſt crucified, is for to be crucified with him, as the Apoſtles doe teach in ſundry places. The reaſon is this, Chriſte was not crucified for to ſlay ſinne in him ſelf, (for he had none) but in his members, which are ioyned and knit vntounto him by faith, in them the force & power of his death doth ſhew it ſelfe: nowe he which hath not this worke of the death of Chriſt in him, that hee feeleth himſelfe crucified concerning the body of ſinne, his faith in the pasſion of Chriſt is but a dead faith, and cannot ſaue him. This is the cauſe why S. Paule faith, Rom. 8. That thoſe which are in Chriſt, walke not after the fleſhe, but after the ſpirite. S. Iohn ſaith, 1. Epiſtle, cha. 3. Ye know that he was made manifeſt to take away our ſinnes, & in him was no ſinne. Whoſoeuer abideth in him ſinneth not, he that ſinneth hath not ſeene him, nor knowne him.

Ath.

Then by that reaſon, yee woulde prooue that all that beleeue in Chriſt are perfect without ſinne. I thinke all are ſinners.

Zelot

Whoſoeuer is borne of God ſinneth not. 1. Iohn. 3. 9.

Ath.

Is there any man which can ſaye that hee is without ſinne?

Zelot.

Not one which liueth in this fleſh.

Ath.

Then yee are contrarie vntounto your ſelfe: for euen nowe yee ſayde. That whoſoeuer abideth in Chriſt ſinneth not, and hée which is borne of God ſinneth not: and now ye confeſſe that all are ſinners ſo long as they liue.

Zelot.

I am not contrarie vntounto my ſelfe p. 81but your blindneſſe cauſeth ye for to thinke ſo. Looke in the Epiſtle to the Romaines Chapter 7. and there ye ſhall find how S. Paule coupleth both theſe things together in himſelfe, which you iudge to bee ſo coutrary, that by no meanes they may be founde in one man together at one time. He confeſſeth that there was a lawe in his members, rebelling againſt the law of his mind, and leading him captiue to the law of ſinne. And yet a litle before in the ſame Chapter hee ſaieth, That he did not commit the euill, but ſinne which dwelt in him. The reaſon which he maketh is, that hee did conſent vntounto the law, and would hauehave doone the good, but he did the euill which he hated. To make the matter plaine, thus it is. Saint Paule was regenerate, but yet not in full perfection, for the remnaunt of ſinne did abide in him: that which the part regenerate did, or coueted to doe, or conſented vntounto, that he ſaith he did: and that which the corruption which did ſtill remaine in him, forced him for to doe, that he ſaith he did not, but ſinne which dwelled in him. Hee doth eſteeme himſelfe in the part regenerate, he counteth the remnaunts of the old man, to be but as excrements, or as a dead carion, which did abide in him, and anoy him. His delight and deſire was vppon the good, he hated the euill, and therefore when he did ſinne, becauſe it was againſt his conſent, and againſt his will, it was no obedience which hee gaue vntounto it: he did not therefore ſerue ſinne, neyther did ſin raygne ouer him, but exerciſe a certayne …iranny ouer him, which he coulde not ſpeake of.

Ath.

I know not what yée meane when yée hauehave ſaide what yée can, all muſt bee ſinners.

Zelot.

Yee may very eaſily perſwade me to beleeue that ye know not what I meane: If your fiue wits were fifteene, they woulde helpe nothing in this caſe. Becauſe ye know not what this meaneth, yee know not what faith in Chriſt crucifyed meaneth, ye know not what repentaunce meaneth, yee can ſee no difference of ſinners: all are ſinners ſay you, and the death of Chriſt is that whiche ſaueth, not conſidering that the death of Chriſt firſt killeth thoſe whom it maketh aliue. For this cauſe men are greatlye ouerſhot oftentimes, when they come vntounto a ſicke man, they thinke if he ſay, I beleeue Chriſte died for my ſinnes, and ſhed his blood for me, that then all is aſwell as may be. If it were p. 82faith in deed in the blood of Chriſt, they muſt needes be in good caſe: for al that beleeue in him, ſhalbe ſaued. But they ſtay vponupon a bare fantaſie, which is a dead & weak faith, not making them to feele the power of the death of Chriſte. Ignoraunce is ſo deepely ſetled in mens mindes, that let a man be neuer ſo wicked, neuer ſo far from true knowledge of God, if he can make but ſome general cō feſſion, they neuer looke further. And becauſe they ſee almoſt all, (howeſoeuer they liue) find this, it maketh them alſo to be careleſſe, and neuer for to thinke of the newe birth, of which Chriſte ſpeaketh, when he ſayeth vntounto Nicodemus: except a man be borne againe, he cannot ſee the kingdome of God: This newe byrth is ſhut out at the doores, & therefore no doubt God doth ſhutte them out of his kingdome which make no account of it.

Ath.

Make your ſelfe neuer ſo ſkilfull, yet yée cannot tell which man God ſaueth and which he condemneth.

Zelot.

It is not the will of God, that wee ſhould take vponupon vsus for to pronounce vppon any man, and to ſay he is damned: becauſe we muſt leaue the ſecrete counſell of God vntounto himſelfe, who is not bounde vntounto vsus, to giuegive any account of his doings. But I pray yee let vsus a litle conſider howe this headleſſe bolte of yours is ſhotte foorth againſt true godlyneſſe. Thus you reaſon, no man can tell who are ſaued, and who are damned, therefore we are not for to care for tryall of our faith and repentance: and that therfore the rules which are giuen in the word of God in theſe points are nothing worth. EueryEvery man may ſearche and know in him ſelfe, whether he be in good caſe or not: and we ought eueryevery one for to trie our ſelues by that whiche the woord teacheth ſo plentifully. I woulde wiſhe yee to conſider what the cauſe is why the greateſt multitude goe to deſtruction: euen becauſe they knowe not theſe thinges, & therefore ſee not the great danger which they be in, but can boldly beare themſelues in hād that they ſhall doe well enough. Manye doe laugh euen in the middeſt of deſtruction, I meane that they can ſport them ſelues euen in doing thoſe thinges which are their bane: and all becauſe they truſt to this beliefe whiche you bragge of. For as on the one ſide true faith & true repentance, and conuerſion vntounto God, doe ſalue all the ſores and ſickneſſes of the ſoule: euen ſo the common dead faith & counterfet repentāce may be called the diuels p. 83plaiſter by which he doth a litle in the toppe, for a time, ſalue the deepe and deadly woūds, but they rancle within, and bring vtter deſtruction. It is great pitie that the woorde of God is not laide open in all places, that the people might come to the vnderſtanding of Chriſt and his power, in tranſlating them out of the power of darkeneſſe, into his kingdome of light: which is wrought with great and diligent teaching, becauſe men are made of a dull metall, and hard to conceiue ſpiritual and heauenly things.

Ath.

Well, I muſt leaue yee now: yee hauehave delt very hardly with me: it were good that you Puritanes ſhoulde conſider your ſelues, & become better ſubiects to y^e Prince.

Zelot.

I am like to hauehave a very good farewell at your handes, for all my trauell in teaching yee. But I looked for none other rewarde from yee: the blacke Moore can not change his hewe, nor the Cat of the mountaine her ſpottes. I muſt ſuffer your reproch, for if they hauehave called the good man of the houſe Beelzebub, howe much more thoſe which be of his houſhold.

Thoſe which conſider not them ſelues, are worſe then madd men: I told ye before, that I doe not allowe that vice. For your ſlaunderous accuſation, I ſcorne and defie it: I may boldely take the Lorde as a witneſſe vntounto my conſcience, that I doe honour and obey the prince, and that I doo condemne, hate, and accurſe all diſobedience vntounto the higher powers. But this hath euer bin the readie way which the diuell hath vſed for too bring thoſe which feare God into hatred: by his inſtrumentes to charge them for too be enemies vntounto Princes. Chriſt was accuſed of treaſon, and condemned as an enemie to Caeſar.

Saint Paul diuers times, was thought to bee a man which did trouble the ſtate. And whoſoeuer ſhall reade the auncient ſtories of the Churche, ſhall finde that this continued ſtill from time to time.

Ath.

Are not there many which coūt thē ſelues very holy, & yet breake the Quéenes lawes?

Zelot.

What if it ſhould fall out, as it doth fall out ſome times, that godly Princes command ſome thing which is contrary vntounto Gods word, ſhould we obey God or men? It is a very groſſe thing to thinke that a man for obeying God doeth diſobey his Prince. I would know this alſo, whether the breach of eueryevery particular lawe, doeth make a man p. 84by and by an euill ſubiect to his Prince? if it ſhoulde, I thinke true ſubiectes might ſoone be numbred. Likewiſe, I would know this, whether a man whiche is diſobedient vntounto God and deſpiſeth his lawes, can for conſcience ſake be obedient vntounto his prince? Hauing bin found vnfaithfull too God, ſhall he be iudged faithfull to men? And where as ſuch as you crye out againſt thoſe whiche profeſſe the Goſpell, that they breake the Queens lawes, & are not the Queenes friēds? I anſwere ye thus. I will aduenture all that I hauehave, that let proofe be made, and thoſe which hauehave this moſt in their mo…thes the Queenes lawes, the Queenes lawes, as thogh they were altogether made of obedience, ſhalbe found to breake two for their one, whom they accuſe. If ye did crie out in this matter moued with a good cōſcience, then would ye be carefull for to keepe the lawes yourſelues, and if ye hauehave care of princes laws, thē would ye hauehave care of Gods lawes.

Ath.

Wherein can yée accuſe me?

Zelot.

I meane not to accuſe you, but to ſpeake that which I know by a nūber, they breake her maieſties lawes in their apparell, in their meate, in their woordes beeing blaſphemers and raylers, in quarrelling & fighting, in dicing and carding, & bowilng, and in manie ſuch like. And becauſe ye ſpeake often of this, who are the Queenes friendes? I ſaye none but ſuche as feare God: for the wicked & vngodly do prouoke God vntounto anger againſt the realme, and doe procure the deſtruction of it, God heareth the prayers of ſuch as feare and louelove his lawes, when they cry vntounto him for their Prince: therfore there can be no more vtter enemies vntounto Princes, then ſuch as are wicked againſt God. Nowe this is a verie prepoſterous thinge, that you which are rebels againſt God ſhoulde beare men in hande that yee bee the friendes of the prince, & that ſuche as are godlie, they muſt be counted enemies.

Ath.

I can ſay no more but god bleſſe and ſaue her.

Zelot.

Amen. I pray God for his mercye ſake graūt, that we may be thankful for thoſe exceeding great bleſſings which he hath by her heaped vponupon vsus, both for bodie & ſoule: and the Lord giuegive vsus louing and obedient hearts towards her. And alſo I beſeeche God to keepe her out of the hand of her enemies, to gouerne her with his bleſſed ſpirite, that ſhe may exalt & magnifie his glorious Goſpell more and more, and repaire the ruines of his Church & ſo glorifie him in this worlde, that in the world to come ſhe may be glorified for euer. Amen.

FINIS.

End of the text · George Gifford, Certain Points of Religion (1582)