Certain Points of Religion, Text (1 of 2)

Certain Points of Religion · Text (1 of 2)

¶ A briefe diſcourſe of certaine pointes of the religion, whiche is among the common ſorte of Chriſtians: which may bee termed the Countrie diuinitie: with a plaine and manifeſt confutation of the ſame, after the order of a Dialogue.

Zelotes. Atheos.

Zelotes.

VVEll ouertaken my friende.

Atheos.

I thanke you Syr.

Zelotes.

How farre doeye… trauell this way?

Ath.

Iwentie myles.

Zelot.

Doe you dwell in Eſſex.

Ath.

Yea, not farre from Clelmeforde.

Zelot.

What call yee the Towne where yee dwell?

Ath.

G. B.

Zelot.

HaueHave yee a preacher there?

Ath.

Wee hauehave an honeſt man our Curat.

Zelot.

Doth he teach his flock?

Ath.

Hée doth his good will, and more ye cannot require of a man.

Zelot.

Yee did commende him euen now, to be an honeſt man.

Ath.

Commende him: yea I maye commende him: I am perſwaded wee hauehave the beſte Prieſte in this Countreye, wee woulde bee lothe too forgoe him for the Learnedeſt of them all.

Zelot.

I praye ye let mee heare what his vertues bee, for which yee doe commend him ſo highly.

Ath.

Hee is as gentle a perſon as euer I ſee: a verye good fellowe, hee willnot ſticke when good Fellowes and honeſt men meete together too ſpende his groate at the Alehouſe: I cannot tell, they preache and preache, but hee doeth liue as well as the beſt of them all. I am afrayde when he is gone wée ſhall neuer hauehave the like againe.

Zelot.

Bee theſe the greate vertues whiche yee doe commende hym p. 2for, hee maye hauehave all theſe, and yet be more meete for too keepe ſwine, then too bee a Sheaphearde ouer the flocke of Chriſte, is hee able to teache the people, and doeth hee inſtruct them in Gods woord?

Ath.

I knowe not what teaching yée woulde hauehave, hee doeth reade the ſeruice, as well as anye of them all, and I thinke there is as good edifiyng in thoſe prayers and Homilies, as in anye that the Preacher canne make: let vsus learne thoſe firſt.

Zelot.

That is not all which is required in a Miniſter, for a boye of tenne yeeres olde canne doe all this: doeth hee not teache them too knowe the will of GOD and reprooue naughtineſſe among the people?

Ath.

Yes that hee doeth, for if there bee anye that doe not agree, hée will ſeeke for too make them friendes: for hee will gette them too playe a game or two at Bowles or Cardes, and too drynke together at the Alehouſe: I thynke it a Godlye waye, to make Charitie: hee is none of theſe buſie Controulers: for if hée were, hée coulde not be ſo well liked of ſome (and thoſe not of the meaneſt) as he is.

Zelot.

Doe yee call the Preachers of Gods worde buſie Controulers? doe they goe further then Gods woorde doeth leade them?

Ath.

Wée may call them buſie controllers, I thinke we ſhall doe nothing ſhortly, as poore a man as I am, I woulde not for fortye ſhillinges that wee had one of them, there be more of my minde.

Zelot.

Some poore men perhaps.

Ath.

Naye, the beſt in the Pariſh, who would not ſo well like of our Curat, if hee ſhould meddle that way.

Zelot.

I perceiue nowe what manner of man your Curat is, and I ſee like maſter like ſcholler.

Ath.

Why ſo I pray yée?

Zelot.

Why ſo, I ſmell how vnmeete hee is, & alſo how ignorant you are. Let me queſtion a little while with yee concerning that which yee hauehave vttered.

Ath.

I truſt I hauehave vttered nothing but that whiche doeth beecome an honeſt man.

p. 3Zelot.

Nay all your ſpeech doeth beewraye that you are a carnall man, for you hauehave made a verye fine deſcription of a good Curate, what meane yee when yee ſay hee is a good fellowe, and will not ſticke to ſpende his money among good fellowes, is it not beecauſe hee is a potte companion?

Ath.

Doe yée miſlike good felowſhip, is it not lawfull for honeſt men to drinke and bee merrie together?

Zelot.

I doe not miſlike true friendſhip, whiche is in the Lorde, knitte in true Godlineſſe, but I miſlike this vice, which ouerfloweth euerie where, that Drunkardes meete togeather and ſitte quaffing, and the miniſter which ſhoulde reprooue them, to bee one of the chiefe: when hee ſhoulde bee at his ſtudie, to bee vponupon the Alebench at Cardes or dice.

Ath.

I perceiue you are one of thoſe curious and preciſe fellowes, whiche will allowe no recreation, what woulde yée hauehave men doe? we ſhall doe nothing ſhortly. You would hauehave them ſitte mooping alwayes at their bookes, I like not that.

Zelot.

Nay my friende, I doe not allowe that recreation, whiche prophane duplicate page p. 3duplicate page men call ſo, whiche is no recreation, but a torment to a Godly minde, to ſee men drunken, to heare them ſweare, and rayle, to ſpende their goodes and their time ſo lewdelie, and hee that ſhoulde teach them, to bee a Ringleader: as there bee manie as it ſeemeth, whiche are entred into the miniſterie, for none other purpoſe, but to liue an idle life, to hauehave leyſure to play at Cardes, or Tables, and Bowles all the Weeke. And therefore they hauehave no skill to teache, but like vnſauerie ſalte, are not good euen for the dunghill.

Ath.

Theſe thinges were vſed before you were borne, and will bee when you are gone. So long as men thinke no hurte when they play and be merry.

Zelot.

I perceiue yee are of the ryght ſtampe, yee are light vppon an argument, whiche may well be termed olde Suerſebee, becauſe it bringeth a reaſon whiche doeth ſticke by manye, when all other reaſons forſake them. But lett vsus pull this olde fellowe out of his newe coat, and yee ſhall ſee what a leane ſhrimpe hee is, and ſo feeble, that hee cannot goe on ſtiltes: theſe thinges were vſed ſaye you, beefore you were borne, ſo were all other naughtie vices, p. 4are they nowe good becauſe they bee olde? Becauſe men committed them before I was borne, and will doe when I am dead.

Ath.

I meane not ſo, but there were as wiſe men, and wiſer then hee nowe among our Forefathers: and they would not hauehave vſed nor allowed ſuch thinges, if they had not béene good: they knewe well enough what they did. Let not vsus bée more preciſe thē they were.

Zelot.

I perceiue you grounde your faith and your doinges vponupon men, and not vponupon Gods worde.

Ath.

I praye GOD I may followe our Forefathers, and doe no woorſe then they did: what ſhoulde wee ſeeke for too bee wyſer or better then they: I woulde wée coulde doe but as well as they did.

Zelot.

Doe you not thinke that there were among our forefathers, theeues, murtherers, adulterers, drunkardes, and ſuche like?

Ath.

I thinke there hauehave béene alwayes euill dooers: and wilbe while the worldes end.

Zelot.

Woulde yee hauehave vsus to followe thoſe, and to take their vices?

Ath.

Wee are not to follow any thing but that whiche is good: and thoſe whiche were godly and wiſe.

Zelot.

Is there anye thing good, but that which God ſetteth downe in his worde? and were any wiſe and Godly, but ſuch as did followe the will of GOD expreſſed in his word?

Ath.

There is nothing good but of GOD, and ſuche as doe as hee commaundeth.

Zelot.

Then you ſee olde ſureſebee layde flat vppon the grounde, and youre luſtye champion is manifeſted to bee but k…ne and bones, and the ſame draugh rotten: for nowe by your owne confeſſion doeth followe that the woorde of God is the onelyonly rule, and we muſt followe our Forefathers no further then they followe the woorde of God. You muſt not followe Dauid nor Abraham in eueryevery thing they did. Furthermore alſo theſe naughtie vices and corrupte cuſtomes came from the wicked forefathers, & not from the godly, which followed gods word.

Ath.

That is true, but I will follow p. 5our forefathers, nowe there is no louelove, then they liued in friendſhippe, and made merrie together, nowe there is no good neighbourhood: nowe euerie man for himſelfe, and are readie to pull one another by the throate.

Zelot.

There are but a few of your mind in this thing, are there?

Ath.

Yes the greateſt parte: for I knowe almoſt none, but they will affirnie this matter.

Zelot.

If the greateſt part to bee of your mind, wherefore is there not then a greate deale of louelove and freendſhippe where you ſay there is none: why doe yee not beeing the moſt in number, repayre the ruines of that olde faythfull friendſhippe, which yee ſay is decayed? yee ſaye that there was louelove and friendſhippe, and yee ſeeme to lament the want of them, and yet there is none in your ſelues: for yee be very full of malice and ſtrife? is there any buzzarde ſo blinde, but that hee may eſpie your groſſe follie and vanitie in this point: whē with open mouth, ye cry for louelove, louelove, and bee the greateſt enemies thereunto your ſelues.

Moreouer yee followe your owne fonde and doating opinion, that yee imagine a thing whiche neuer was, for the Worlde hath euer beene like it ſelfe, full of debate and ſtrife, a verie fewe in all ages whiche hauehave had true louelove: Againe, you call none louelove, but that carnall louelove, whiche is in eating and drinking, and other fooliſhe delightes. That whiche is the true louelove, you condemne to bee hatred: For if a man admoniſhe and reprooue you for anie naughtie vice, which is the greateſt louelove: by and by yee ſtampe and ſtare like madde men, and ſaye nowe there is no louelove, except a man doe flatteryee, and bee partaker of your foule and beaſtlie ſinnes, yee are at deadlie hatred with him. But lett vsus returne againe too Syr Robert, yee ſayde hee was as good a liuer as the beſt of them all.

Ath.

I ſaye ſo ſtill, for he is content with his liuing: many of your ſpirituall men are neuer ſatiſfied: for with that poore liuing he hath, he doth kéepe a good houſe and doeth féede the poore.

Zelot.

You proue him to bee a good Liuer, by comparing him with thoſe whiche are woorſe: It is all one p. 6as if a manne woulde proofe a theefe whiche hath ſtollen twentie pounde too bee a good theefe, becauſe hee is not ſo euill as hee, whiche hath ſtollen a thouſande poundes.

Ath.

Yée doe not well to compare true men with theeues.

Zelot.

Is not he a theefe which doth take the hire and doth not that which hee ſhoulde doe for it?

Ath.

He is as good as a théefe, I thinke ſo.

Zelot.

Doe not they robbe them whiche take the liuing and doe not feede the flocke? Let mee aske yee a queſtion, if a man robbe and ſteale and then keepe a houſe, and feaſt his neighboures with it, and bee a Murtherer, will his good houſe keeping make him a good Liuer?

Ath.

No that it will not.

Zelot.

Let mee aske yee another queſtion, which is the worſe murtherer, hee whiche doth murther the body, or hee whiche doeth murther the ſoule?

Ath.

Hee whiche doeth murther the ſoule.

Zelot.

Then hee whiche ſhoulde feede mens bodies committed vntounto hym, and doeth pine them to death, is a murtherer: and hee which ſhould feede mens ſoules and doth ſterue them, is a greater murtherer, and ſo his good houſe keeping cannot make him a good man, robbing ſo many, and killing ſo many.

Ath.

I will not beléeue that hee doth kill any.

Zelot.

That is becauſe yee will not beleeue the ſaying of Chriſte: if the blynde leade the blynde they both fal into the ditch, nor that God will ſaue men by the woorde preached.

Ath.

I hope wée bée not blinde, I truſt we beleeue all well.

Zelot.

You are blinde and ſhould hauehave a guide to leade ye the way to heauen, and to inſtruct yee in true godlineſſe.

Ath.

I will not learne the way to heauen of anie man, for I hope I hauehave as good a faith and as good a ſoule to Godwarde as the beſt learned of them all.

Zelot.

Whereby doe you try your goodneſſe and your faith, any other way then by your owne blinde fantaſie?

p. 7Ath.

I meane well: I hurte no man: nor I thinke no man anye hurte: I louelove God aboue all: and put my whole truſt in him: what woulde yee hauehave more? they preache and teache, they can tell vsus no more but this: when they hauehave all ſaid what they can.

Zelot.

Nowe yee tumuble it vppe together in deede: I ſee well it is no ſmall trouble to bring an ignoraunt man, for to ſee his folly.

Ath.

I hauehave vttered my conſcience: if I ſaye not well, I am readye for too learne.

Zelot.

What neede you learne when you knowe all afore hand euen as much as all the preachers can tell yee?

Ath.

Yée take me at the woorſt, the wiſeſt of vsus all may learne.

Zelot.

You ſaide that yee louelove GOD aboue all: and you thinke no man no hurt, I take it your meaning is, that yee doe louelove GOD with all your hearte, and your neighbour as your ſelfe, and more then this cannot be taught.

Ath.

Wée ſhould doe this, if wée doe it not, God forgiue vsus.

Zelot.

This is all, is it not, what needeth any more teaching.

Ath.

Let men doe this firſte, and afterwarde, if they will learne more, let them.

Zelot.

Yee giuegive very graue aduiſe nowe, if there were any to follow it.

Ath.

I hauehave no learning, but I thinke if men would doe this, it woulde not bee ſo euil as it is.

Zelot.

If eueryevery thing whiche is ſpoken truely, be ſpoken wiſely, then you hauehave vttered a verye wiſe ſaying, for I am ſure there cannot be a truer. I beleeue indeede yee hauehave no learning, and I am ſure as you ſaye, if men ſhould doe that, there would not be ſo much euill among vsus.

Ath.

Yée thinke peraduenture that I ſpeake like a foole, I woulde I were as wiſe as thoſe which I heare ſay ſo.

Zelot.

HaueHave yee manye of theſe greate Wiſe men, which woulde hauehave men firſt fulfill the ten Commaundements and then run to heare ſermons.

Ath.

All thinges are well ſpoken which are well taken: if they bee not wiſe I praye God make them wiſe: I hauehave nought to doe with them.

p. 8Zelot.

Yee are a playne man and hauehave skyll in outwarde thinges, will yee giuegive mee leaue to aske you a queſtion in a matter wherein yee hauehave vnderſtanding?

Ath.

I thanke God I dare anſweare to a queſtion.

Zelot.

Are ye a carpenter or a maſon?

Ath.

I hauehave no ſkill that way.

Zelot.

Then if there be a great houſe of tymber and ſtone, to buylde, you can not build it?

Ath.

If there were no better builders, then I, there woulde not bee ſo manye gaye houſes.

Zelot.

If one ſhoulde ſay here is a verie fayre houſe too bee buylded, it is no more but to laye a good foundation, too raiſe vp the walles and to finiſh the roofe, you knowe this all: therefore ye canne buyld it for ye know all.

Ath.

I know this is all: but I can do neuer a whit of it, vnles a carpenter or a buylder doe teach me.

Zelot.

Ye ſay well, euen ſo to louelove GOD with all our hearte, with all our mynde, and our neighbour as our ſelfe, is all, but wee knowe not howe to doe one iotte of it, vnleſſe we be taught it out of gods worde.

Ath.

God graunt wee may, for there bee ouer many which doe not regard it.

Zelot.

Let mee nowe aske you further, put caſe one ſhoulde ſaye vntounto you, thus, you know all that is to bee done in buylding an houſe: the foundation, the walles, and the roofe, doe theſe firſt, if yee will learne any more, yee may goe to ſome Carpenter.

Ath.

There is no man ſo fooliſhe, to giuegive a man that counſell.

Zelot.

It is the Counſell you gaue, and the wiſe men which yee ſpake of, which woulde hauehave men firſt to do and afterwarde to learne.

Ath.

Naye to doe that they knowe, and afterwarde to learne more: for there was neuer more knowledge and leſſe dooing.

Zelot.

It is a verie pitifull caſe to ſee, howe the worlde is blinded, yee bring not this out of your owne bouget: for there bee very manie wiſe and iollye heades, whiche ſtande muche vppon this which you ſpeake: they neuer vnderſtoode that whiche Solomon p. 9ſaith, Prouerb, 1. cap. 22. ver. Yee fooles be enemies vntounto knowledge, or hate▪ knowledge. Neither doe they knowe that whiche Saint Paule ſpeaketh. 1, Cor. 8, 2. If any man thinke he knoweth any thing, hee knoweth nothing as yet, as hee ought to knowe. They neuer conſidered what the holy Ghoſte ſaith in the latter ende of the fifte Chapter to the Hebrwes. ver. 12. Where he doth ſharply reprooue them, becauſe they were children in vnderſtanding. Neither doe they know that all well doing proceedeth from faith, & faith doth increaſe through knowledge: it greeueth me to ſtand vponupon the matter, the ſaying is ſo buzzardly.

Ath.

You would hauehave all men diuines. I thinke it is not for plowmē to meddle with the Scriptures.

Zelot.

You thinke ſo, but I pray you to whom ſpeaketh the Lorde by the Properer Eſay, when hee ſaith: My people periſhe for want of knowledge. VntoUnto whom ſpeaketh the Lorde by the Prophete Hoſeas. Chap. …. 1. 2. When hee ſaith: there is no truth, there is no mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land, But ſwearing, lying, killing, thee…ing, cōmitting adulterie, &c. VntoUnto whome wrote Saint Paule, ſaying▪ Brethren bee children in malice, be not children in vnderſtanding, & vntounto whom wrote Saint Peter exhorting ſo much vntounto knowledge?

Ath.

I thinke knowledge doeth make men the woorſe, for there bée no woorſe men then many that be great ſcripture men: none wil deceiue a man ſooner then they: they wil ſpeake a man faire before his face, and bee readie behinde his backe for to cutte his throate.

Zelot.

It ſeemeth that you are no ſmall man, there is a great deale of good ſtuffe in you if you would vtter it.

Ath.

I tell yée my mind plainely, I will not flatter any man.

Zelot.

Ye need not tell me that, I know what maner of man ye be. Let vsus come to your laſt words, ye did ſpeake very lewdly, do yee thinke that knowledge doeth make men woorſe?

Ath.

I heare many ſay ſo: if I ſpeake …ew… lye, there bee a number moe beſide me, that doe ſo.

Zelot.

If knowledge make men the woorſe, then is it a thing that is not good of it ſelfe, for that whiche is good can not make a man euill: is there any beaſt which will ſay, That to knowe GOD or the wil of p. 10God which is moſt holy and pure, can make … man the woorſe? No theſe men are more then beaſtes. Againe, the more a man knoweth of God the woorſe he ſhould be, a very filthie blaſphemie.

Moreouer you are greatly deceiued, whē ye thinke that all thoſe whiche canne talke of tho Scriptures hauehave knowledge, for there be verye many carnall Pratlers, which ſeeme for to knowe much, and yet are as blinde as Buzzardes: theſe are naughty men, not becauſe they hauehave knowledge, but becauſe they want knowledge.

Ath.

I cannot tell, a man ſhall heare them ſaye a greate deale out of the Byble.

Zelot.

No doubt a great deale more th… they vnderſtand: now when ſuch do not liue well, doth it followe that Gods worde maketh them woorſe? nay yee be all blinde Aſſes whiche cannot ſee, that becauſe there is verye little true vnderſtanding of Gods woorde among men, therefore there is ſo much vncleaneſſe: For as the holy Ghoſt ſaith Pſal. 119. 9. Wherewithall ſhall a young man clenſe his way euen by taking heed therto according to thy word. Now when men doe not vnderſtand the woorde, howe ſhall they take heede to their wayes, for to guyde them by the ſame. And when GOD ſayth the woorde doeth cleanſe vsus, his meaning muſt needes bee, that all ſuch as are not purged thereby, are foule and filthie in his eyes.

Ath.

Yée hauehave of your preachers, tr… pulpit men, and can ſaye very well: but their déedes are as euill as other mens, for who is more couetous then they: they are neuer content vntill they hauehave heaped liuing vppon liuing.

Zelo….

Such skilfull men as you, thinke if a man can preache or rather (as a number doe) prattle and hauehave a rowling tongue and can make ſome ſhewe of learning, that by and by hee is a trime man, and hath great knowledge: when as in deede hee hath no true knowledge. For I count him to hauehave true knowledge, whiche hath ſo learned Chriſte, that hee is become a newe creature. Therefore Saint Iohn in the 3. Chapter 5. 6. verſes, of his firſt Epiſtle ſpeaking of Chriſte, ſaith: That he was made manifeſt to take away our ſinnes, and in him is no ſinne: Whoſoeuer abideth in him ſinneth not. Whoſoeuer ſinneth hath not ſeene him nor knowne him. Likewiſe in the firſt booke of Samuel. p. 11cap. 2. verſ. 12. It is ſaide by the ſonnes of Elye, that they were the ſonnes of Beliall, and knewe not God: and yet they were inſtructed in the lawe, and taught the people. And for mine owne part I coulde neuer perceiue that any wicked man coulde preache worth a button▪ I meane concerning, the cheefe thinge required in preaching, which is the declaration of the power of the ſpirite which ought for to appeare, to the conuerſion of ſinnefull men. For to lay open points of doctrine, they may doe it well.

Ath.

It is not for vsus that are ſimple men for to iudge who doth well, and who doeth no….

Zelot.

Yes that it is, for Saint Iohn ſaieth, trie the ſpirites whether they be of God▪ Our Sauiour Chriſt ſayeth, my ſheepe heare my voyce a ſtraunger they will not heare. Wherevpon it doeth followe that hee which knoweth not when pure doctrine and wholeſome is vttered, is not as yet among the number of the ſheepe of Chriſt. For if he were indued with the ſpirit of God, he ſhoulde by the ſame ſpirite feele when wholeſome doctrine is deliuered vntounto him.

Ath.

If a man bee learned, then hee ſhall bee able to iudge what is ſayle rightly: otherwiſe hée cannot tell.

Zelot.

It is not learning alone whiche muſt iudge of ſound preaching, for there be manie learned men which cannot iudge wel, as alſo there bee manie vnlearned, which are verie well able to diſcerne, all lieth in this point the doctrine is of God, & not of men, and therefore thoſe doe feele it, and iudge rightly whether they be learned or vnlearned, whom God doth inwardly teach with his ſpirite: for this cauſe S. Paule. 1, Cor. 14. doth ſhewe that the worde of God is ſo to be layde open in the congregation, that if there come▪ in a man vnlearned or an infidell, hee may be reproued & iudged, & the ſecrets of his hearte made manifeſt. For if the word be not preached vntounto the conſciences of men, it goeth away like a dead ſound. But we goe into many matters, I hauehave not forgotten your former wordes: but perhaps yee would bee loth to come to that againe.

Ath.

I am not aſhamed of any thing, which I ſaid, and I hope I neede not.

Zelot.

No, your wares are ſo fine, ye neede not care who viewe them, you louelove God aboue all, and with all your heart.

Ath.

That I doe, or els I were a beaſt, I woulde hee were hanged whiche doeth not▪ p. 12that.

Zelot.

Yee louelove your neighbour as your ſelfe?

Ath.

If I doe not I pray GOD forgiue mée, I am ſure no man can accuſe mée.

Zelot.

Then you looke by this meanes to come to heauen?

Ath.

I hope if there be but thrée in all this country, goe to heauen I ſhall bée one of them, I meane ſo well.

Zelot.

Ye know the commandements of God▪ and fulfil them alſo do ye not?

Ath.

I thanke God I knowe them: and will fulfill them as nigh as God ſhall giuegive me grace.

Zelot.

Doe ye breake none of them?

Ath.

Wée breake them all of vsus dayly & horuely▪ for there is no man which can kéepe them all.

Zelot.

You breake ſome of them, and keepe other ſome. Ye keepe the greateſt, doe ye not▪ and breake the leaſt?

Ath.

I kéepe the greateſt, and therefore I hope God will beare with mée in the reſt.

Zelot.

Which doe ye take for to be the greateſt, that ye are ſo cleere in?

Ath.

I am no théefe, nor murtherer, nor traitour: I pay euerye man his owne▪ I thinke this is Gods bidding.

Zelot.

Are there no greater then theſe?

Ath.

I take him for an honeſt man which doth kéepe theſe, and he that doeth not I defie him.

Zelot.

Euen ſo wil I take you to be, when I knowe that you doe keepe them▪ But I maruell yee are ſo bolde for to bid defiance to ſo many.

Ath.

Doe not you deſ…e them al? and all other euil doers?

Zelot.

If I ſhould do ſo, you and I ſhoulde be together by the eares by and by.

Ath.

Then belike yée count…ee to bee ſuch an one: yée ought not to iudge.

Zelot.

A man may knowe the tree by the fruites: but let this paſſe: I pray ye tell me is not he which hath moe Gods then one, as euill as a murtherer?

Ath.

I take him to bée woorſe.

Zelot.

Then the firſt commaundement is greater, then thoſe which you named?

Ath.

If a man thinke there is any God▪ but one, he is very farre wide.

p. 13Zelot.

You hauehave none other Gods but one then?

Ath.

It were pitie of my life if I ſhoulde not bee of that beliefe. If all the commaundementes were as eaſie to bee kept as this, we ſhould doe well.

Zelot.

Then yee neuer brake the firſt Commaundement.

Ath.

Neuer in all my lyfe: neither ſhal euer any make me to bée but of Gods beliefe: for they which beléeue there bee many Gods are not of a right minde.

Zelot.

Can you then keepe the greater and no… the leſſe? I doe no… doubte but if a man can keepe the firſt hee can keepe all, for the firſt is as hard as any of the reſt, although ſuch skilfull Clearkes as you, count it to bee very eaſie.

Ath.

Then it were an eaſie matter to kéepe them.

Zelot.

What if I proue vntounto yee that you breake it, will you confeſſe your follie?

Ath.

I will neuer bée made beléeue that which I know is contrary.

Zelot.

…e… me aske ye this queſtion▪ whether that man▪ doth keepe this Commandement, which thinketh there is but one God▪ and yet giueth that honour and worſhip vntounto other thinges, which he ſhould giuegive vntounto him alone.

Ath.

I did neuer put any truſt in images, nor I neuer thought they coulde doe mée any good.

Zelot.

I do not ſpeake of that outward giuing away of Gods worſhip: but of an other which is inward in the minde.

Ath.

I hauehave alwayes had God in my minde, and I truſt I hauehave neuer woorſhipped any beſides him.

Zelot.

Is not that a mans God which hee loueth beſt: & which hee doeth moſt delight in?

Ath.

Looke what a man loueth beſt and taketh moſt delight in, I thinke hee maketh y^• his god, becauſe we ought to louelove god beſt.

Zelot.

Doe yee not thinke that the thing which a man moſt ſetteth his minde vponupon, & moſt ſeeketh after, is that which he moſt loueth?

Ath.

I ſuppoſe eueryevery man looketh after that which he moſt loueth.

Zelot.

Then he which ſeeketh the world more then God, loueth the world more then God: and therefore in very deede maketh the world his God?

p. 14Ath.

God forbid that any man ſhoulde make more account of this worlde, then of God, I hope fewe doe ſo.

Zelot.

You hope fewe doe ſo, but a man may eaſilie proue that youe doe ſo, and I am ſure the moſt doe ſo.

Ath.

I truſt yée ſhall hardly prooue it by mée, although yée iudge ſo euill of mée.

Zelot

Can a man ſeeke after God, or ſet his delight vponupon God anie other waie, then by ſeeking after the knowledge and obedience of Gods will, which he hath reuealed in his word? or can a man louelove God, and not louelove his worde?

Ath.

Gods word is good, wee muſt louelove that al of vsus & be ruled by it, for it doth tell vsus nothing but that which is good.

Zelot.

How ſlilie you wind out of the matter I aſke one thing which yee doe not aunſweare: and that is whether a man can ſeeke God, and not ſeeke him in his worde?

Ath.

EueryEvery man cannot bee a Diuine, wée that bee vnlearned men are not for to meddle with ſo high matters.

Zelot.

Now ye ſpeake in your kinde, we be unlearned men, we hauehave nought to doe with God, we may not meddle with him.

Ath.

You take all thinges wrong, yée doe not heare the ſay ſo.

Zelot.

Doe I take yee wrong, doe ye not ſay ſo? tell me is not God as high a matter as his word?

Ath.

God is aboue all.

Zelot.

Can we hauehave to doe with God, to ſerue him any way but by his worde?

Ath.

The worde of GOD doeth tell by what wée are to doe.

Zelot.

Then it followeth when yee ſaye wee may not meddle with ſo high matters, that yee were euen as good for to ſay, wee hauehave nought to doe with GOD. Wee owe him no duetie of obedience, we need not care to know his will: becauſe he is as high a matter as his word.

Ath.

You put in a greate deale more then I ſayde, and take mee ſtill at the woorſt.

Zelot.

Naye you are ſo deepe in youre ſpeeche, that yee vtter more in a woord, then a man can well lay open in an houres talke: Againe I take yee not at the worſt, for make the beſt of it you can, and it muſt needes follow, that thoſe which care not for the worde of God, care not for him, neither doe they delight in him, or louelove him whiche doe not delight in him nor louelove his worde.

p. 15Moreouer howe ſhall a man take delight for to knowe the woorde, but it will cauſe him for to ſeeke to knowe it, that which is a mans iewell hee will ſome times looke vppon it: but there are a number of yee which are in deede verie Atheiſtes, and ſet no… a ſtrawe by the knowledge of Gods will: for let a man tell ye of any dutie which ye ſhould be taught out of the holy ſcriptures, by and by, this is your aunſweare, thoſe thinges are not for vsus to meddle withall: it is not for vsus to talke of ſuche pointes. But we are gone a great way from the beginning of this matter, whiche is, that where yee did affirme that yee louelove God with all your hearte, and that yee hauehave none other Gods beſides him: Now the concluſion is proued, that yee louelove him as much as an old ſhoe, and that in deede yee make the worlde your God, becauſe ye ſeeke moſt after that.

Ath.

Yee doe not vſe me well in ſaying that I louelove GOD no better then an olde ſhoe, I woulde yée ſhould knowe I louelove him as wel as the beſt of yée all, though indéede I cannot ſay ſo much.

Zelot.

Bee not angrie man, for it is but a ſmall faulte, for a great ſorte moe doe beare yee companie, ye goe not alone. But becauſe ye make ſo great boaſt▪ I pray ye tell me this, ye hauehave ſeruants hauehave ye not?

Ath.

I hauehave a poore houſholde.

Zelot.

What doe you require of your ſeruant?

Ath.

To obey my will and to doe that which I command him.

Zelot.

What if he care not ſo muche, as to knowe your will, but will ſaye: I will not meddle with ſo high matters, nothyng regardyng to knowe your pleaſure: will yee ſay he loueth yee, or hee is a good ſeruant?

Ath.

I cannot ſay that he is a good ſeruant, for if he were he would not take ſkorn but be glad to heare my will.

Zelot.

Ye ſay right, but why doe ye not conſider that, when God hath ſet downe his wil & you care not for to know it, that ye louelove him as well and doe him as good ſeruice, as ſuch a ſeruant ſhould doe vntounto you.

Ath.

God helpe, if this which you ſaye hée true.

Zelot.

It is moſt true, not only that men make the world their GOD, becauſe they ſeeke more after it then they doe after Gods kingdom, but alſo S. Paule calleth the Diuell the God of this world, as alſo in another p. 16place he ſayth, there bee ſome whoſe God is their bellie.

Ath.

God forbid that any man ſhould take the diuell to bee GOD, or doe him ſuch honour.

Zelot.

They are no ſmall number which make him their God.

Ath.

You may ſay ſo, but I could neuer come into that mans company yet, whiche would not vtterly defie him.

Zelot.

If I ſhould profeſſe great kindnes vntounto you now, and in the meane time drawe my dagger and breake your pate, woulde yee beleeue I were your friend?

Ath.

I pray God keepe mee from ſuch friendes: which giuegive good wordes and doe euill deedes, I had rather they tolde me their hatred.

Zelot.

Then ye anſwere that we muſt not looke what men ſay, but what they doe.

Ath.

They had better not ſpeake well, then ſpeake well and doe euill.

Zelot.

Likewiſe I anſwere you that we muſt not looke to mens woords, when they defie the Diuell, but to their deedes by which they obey him and doe his will: for when they defie him in their wordes, they honour him for God in their workes.

Ath.

If there be any ſuch, I pray GOD amende them, for that is the woorſt which I wiſh them.

Zelot.

I coulde like your prayer well if it were not only for a faſhion, as yee vſe many ſuch like. For when it commeth to the trial, you wil eaſily be found amōg the number of ſuch.

Ath.

If yée thinke mee to bee ſuche an one, yee iudge woorſe then euer any man did, I thank GOD I can bring manye to teſtifie that I am an honeſt man and alwayes hauehave beene, I will bee founde as good as your ſelfe, though yée finde ſo greate faulte with other, as though yee were not like other men.

Zelot.

I iudge nothing but that which is eaſie to ſee, in you and in a number more, and which I canne, and will proue to your face.

Ath.

Yee are a ſtranger vntounto mee, will yée iudge of mee, and knowe not what my woorkes are.

Zelot.

Hee whiche cannot ſpie yee, hath but a ſimple vnderſtanding: I pray yee tell mee, ſuch as doe the workes and will of the Diuell, are they not of the Diuell? Saint Iohn 1. Epiſtle 3. ſayth, Hee that committeth p. 17euill is of the Diuell. Likewiſe our Sauiour Chriſt telleth the obſtinate Iewes, Ioh. 8. Which boaſted themſelues to bee the children of Abraham, and the children of God, that they were of their father the Diuell, and why? becauſe they did his will. Euen ſo you take part with ſuch as are euill, and wicked. Shall ye aske a little queſtion?

Ath.

Yea, aſke what yée will, and iudge what yee like beſt: but I will aunſweare as well as I can.

Zelot.

Doe ye not thinke that al whoremaſters, Drunkardes, Dicers, Raylers, Swearers, and ſuche like, are the Diuels armie, as on the other ſide, ſuch as profeſſe gods word and liue godly, are his ſouldiers, and do fight vnderunder his banner?

Ath.

They are well holpen vp which ſerue ſuch a maſter.

Zelot.

Why are you ſo vnwiſe then as to ſerue him: for all thoſe which take part with thoſe wicked men, & raile vponupon thoſe which are godlie, doe fight vnderunder the ſame ſtanderd, and ſeeke to vphold the kingdome of the Diuell, labouring for to ouerthrow the Goſpel, and to baniſh Gods word?

Ath.

They are woorthie to hauehave their eares cut from their head, which rayle vppon honeſt men or ſeeke to ſlaunder them.

Zelot.

This is a common thing among all the packe of ye, if there be any man which hath a care to know God, and ſeeketh after his worde, & will not cōmit thoſe beaſtly ſins which ouer flow in all places, then you which cannot abide to hauehave Gods word ſet foorth, deniſe a number of lies and ſlaunders againſt them, calling them Puritanes, raſcals, and many ſuch like. On the contrary part, let a man be a common drunkarde, a Dicer, an ignorat beaſt which hath no knowledge of God, a wretched worldling, or any kinde of ſuche perſon: he is an honeſt man: for they be thoſe whom you woulde hauehave a man loſe his eares for: he is now counted the honeſt man which liueth as the moſt doe.

Ath.

There bee a number goe ſo farre they cannot tell what they may doe: they will not doe as their honeſt neighbours doe, they wilbe wiſer then their betters: what ſhoulde they meddle with Gods woorde, it maketh …hembuſie in checking eueryevery man. It was neuer merry ſince men vnlearned hauehave medled with the ſcriptures.

Zelot.

I maruell how far you would go if a man ſhoulde followe ye, yee are like a puddle, which the more a man ſtirreth it, the more filthie mud ariſeth: yee are like a ſinke, where p. 18the more a man ſtirreth, the more is the ſtink.

Ath.

What meane ye by that?

Zelot.

I mean that your heart is full of foule ſlinking & rotten matter, which floweth out at your mouth. I confeſſe that thoſe men bee not to be allowed which meddle with that which they ſhould not: but I know whom you meane, when ye ſay they goe ſo farr, that they know not what they may doe: ye ſpeake of them which ſeek to know GOD, whom ye thinke to be halfe madde.

Ath.

There be ſome of them which are not book learned, what ſhould they doe otherwiſe then their fathers before them: I knew ſome of their fathers, honeſt men, and neuer troubled themſelues that way.

Zelot.

I did know your mind wel enough: for al your ſpite is againſt thoſe which learne out of Gods word to know their duety towards the lord: & becauſe as S. Pet. ſaith, 1. Pe. 4. they do not run with ye to the ſame exces of riot, ye think it ſtrange & blaſphemy. Agayn, ye cannot abide to be admoniſhed, when ye commit any naughty thing. Ye know not that God hath appoynted his word for all ſortes of mē to be inſtructed in it throughly, for the holy Apoſtles exhort eueryevery where vntounto great knowledge in the worde.

Againe ye know not that which the Lorde cōmandeth in ſundrie places, that we ſhould admoniſhe, and reprooue one another, if any do amiſſe: & not as you blind obſtinate men, which when a man doeth after a godlie manner admoniſh yee: hee is by and by a buſie medler, what hath he to doe, he ſhall not anſwere for you. And becauſe yee may not doe what lewdnes yee liſt, vncontrolled, yee ſay it was neuer merry ſince eueryevery man might, read the ſcriptures. It is maruellous that men ſhould ſo become beaſtes without all vnderſtanding.

Ath.

It would not gréeue me to bée reprooued by thoſe which are learned, but now eueryevery Iacke wilbe medling.

Zelot.

If you be reproued iuſtly by Gods worde, then is it God which doth reproue, ye are not to looke vppon the man. But when ye call them Iackes, and giuegive them other reproches, it is becauſe yee are blinde, and can diſcerne nothing but that whiche is of this worlde: For if yee could ſee how great glorie the pooreſt true Chriſtian is called vntounto, to be the child of God, yee woulde not reuile thoſe whom God honoureth.

Ath.

They will be medling in ſmal matters, if it were for great ſaults it were ſomewhat, but a man may not be merrie nowe.

p. 19Zelot.

Beeyng vtterly blinde, and voide of grace, yee count thoſe ſinnes which are foule and groſſe, for to bee ſmall: ſwearing rayling, talking in your filthie ribaldty, ſinging ſowle and beaſtly ſonges, theſe and ſuch like are your pety faultes: this is your my…th wh…n muſt not bee hindered: For it is death to yee to hauehave any godlineſſe ſpoken of, if it be, ye cannot bee merry. This dunghill mirth is that which men complaine of to be moleſted, and ſay it was happie in olde time, when men were not reproued for ſuch things, now there be ſo many ſcripture men, that a man cannot tell what to ſay or what to doe.

Ath.

There are none of yée all as holie as yée woulde ſéeme for to be, but hauehave faultes, yée ſée not your owne, but other mens.

Zelot.

Hee which doeth not repente and correct his own vitious nature and ſtriue to obey God, is no good reproouer of others: But when yee ſay, men ſeeme to be holy and giuegive it as a matter of reproch, therein yee goe almoſt beyond the Diuell himſelfe: for you ſee that I gaineſaie yee, or els yee woulde not inure it, but yee would euen Powre out your ſtinking & rotten poyſon like blaſphemous and venemous beaſtes: ye would ſpeake after this manner you that are ſo full of the ſpirite, you that are Saintes and ſuch like. What are you diuelles, are yee of the fleſh? no doubt yee are vntil God conuert ye. But we may ſee how diueliſhly men are become wicked: when a man cannot make any appearance to be godly and holy, but it is reproched as though it were a ſhameful thing to be led by the ſpirite. For otherwiſe why do they ſo obiecte an honeſt thing to liue after the fleſhe, a ſhamefull matter to be guided by the ſpirite.

Ath.

God helpe vsus if none be good but ſuch, I hope honeſt and quiet men ſhalbe ſaued as well as they, although they cannot talke ſo well, nor runne not to heare Sermons.

Zelot.

Nay you would hauehave others in berter caſe then they, for you iudge them that are zealous in the Goſpel and woulde faineſt of all other pleaſe God, to be the worſt men, and the more carefull a man is to be holy to the Lorde, the more he is diſdayned and miſliked. Which doeth euidently ſhewe that ſuch as you are led by the ſpirite of the Diuell. Yee leade me ſo from one matter to another, that wee are gone from ſomething which ye vttered. I remember yee ſaide yee put your whole truſt in God.

p. 20Ath.

I ſayd ſo, & ſo I ſay ſtill: though I hauehave no learning, yet I truſt I beleeue as well as any ſcripture man of them all.

Zelot.

Yee bragge very boldly, I pray ye tell me this, are yee ſure ye ſhalbe ſaued?

Ath.

No, nor you neyther, nor the beſt of yee all, wee muſte commit that too God.

Zelot.

What is it that yee put all your whole truſt in him for? Is it not this, that GOD hath promiſed vntounto yee eternal life, and that yée beleeue he wil performe his promiſe?

Ath.

That hee doeth louelove me and giueth me all thinges.

Zelot.

Are yee not ſure that hee doth louelove yee?

Ath.

I hope he doth louelove me: but I am not ſure.

Zelot.

Doeth not the ſcripture ſaye that whoſoeuer doth truſt in him ſhalbe ſaued?

Ath.

God ſayth ſo indeede, and I beleeue it is ſo.

Zelot.

You knowe doe yee not, that yee put your whole truſt and beliefe in him?

Ath.

I knowe I doe: and I hope I ſhall alwayes doe.

p. 3Zelot.

If God can not lie, when hee ſaith all that truſt in him ſhall bee ſaued, and you knowe that yee put your whole truſt in him, Wherefore doe yee not then knowe that yee ſhalbe ſaued?

Ath.

That which God ſayth, is true, for he cannot lie: I put my truſt in none but in him: I hope to be ſaued, what would yée hauehave more? I will beléeue neuer a one of them all when they ſay they know they ſhalbe ſaued: I thinke they woulde make them ſelues Gods.

Zelot.

Naye ſuche as you make your ſelues Gods, when yee ioyne thinges ſo contrary together and can make them agree: fire and water may lodge together in one bedde, at your inne, and agree well together: For they are no more contrary then that whiche yee affirme, when yee ſay God hath promiſed that all which beleeue in him ſhall bee ſaued, you are ſure yee beleeue in him and that ye put all your whole truſt in him & yet yee can not tell whether yee ſhall bee ſaued. But I can not greatly maruell at this, for yee knowe as well what faith is, as doeth a Gooſe.

Ath.

I truſt I knowe, and I meane well, God knoweth my meaning howſoeuer p. 21you take me.

Zelot

Let mee aske yee this queſtion, when a man praieth if hee doe not beeleeue that whiche hee ſaieth, doeth hee well?

Ath.

Wée muſt beléeue that which we ſpeake when wee praye, or els it is nothing woorth.

Zelot.

When Chriſt teacheth vsus too pray, and too call GOD our Father, ought we not for to knowe that he is our Father?

Ath.

Wee ought for to knowe, that which GOD teacheth vsus and to beleeue the ſame.

Zelot.

Muſt wee not beleeue it without doubting or wauering, as S. Iames ſayth hee that doubteth is like vntounto a waue of the Sea toſſed with the winde, neither let that man thinke that he ſhall receiue any thing?

Ath.

Wée muſt not doubt, for hée that doubteth is in a wrong beléefe, we muſt put all our truſt in God.

Zelot.

Then when ye call GOD Father ye beleue that ſurely which ye ſpeak, then are ye ſure that he loueth yee, for a father doeth louelove his childe, euen men which are euill doe giuegive good giftes vntounto their children when they aſke, becauſe they louelove thē, much more, the heauenly Father which is perfectly good doeth louelove his children, that is, thoſe whiche beleeue in him: then I reaſon in this wiſe, hee that beleeueth ſurely that GOD is his father, he is ſure that GOD loueth him: hee that is ſure god loueth him is ſure of euerlaſting life: therefore all thoſe which pray aright, are ſure they ſhalbe ſaued.

Ath.

I pray God wee may call vppon him.

Zelot.

Tell mee further what ye thinke, was not Abraham ſure he ſhoulde bee ſaued, likewiſe Dauid, Paul, and others?

Ath.

Euerye man cannot bee like thoſe. Can you ſaye yee are like vntounto Abraham?

Zelot.

Doeth not the ſcripture ſay, that Abraham is the father of the faithfull, and that thoſe are the children of God, whiche walke in the ſteppes of faithfull Abraham? I confeſſe in deede that eueryevery one cannot attaine to ſo great a meaſure of fayth as thoſe had: but yet wee muſt come to the ſame faith, becauſe we hauehave the ſame GOD, the ſame couenant and promiſes, the ſame ſpirit is giuen vntounto vsus which beleeue, Saint p. 22Paule in the 4. chap. the Epheſians ſaith: there is one God, one faith, one baptiſme. If there be but one, then ours muſt bee the ſame that theirs was.

Ath.

Yea, but for al that it is preſumption for men to ſay they knowe they ſhalbee ſaued.

Zelot.

I ſee that popiſh dung doth ſticke ſtil between your teeth, when they teach men that it is preſumption to be out of doubt.

Ath.

What tell ye mee of the Pope, I care not for him, I woulde both hee and his Dung, were buried in the Dunghill.

Zelot.

I knowe there be many which care not for the Pope, but yet beleeue muche of his doctrine: they bee thoſe whiche wee call Athieſts, of no religion, but looke whatſoeuer any prince doeth ſet forth, that they will profeſſe.

Ath.

I thinke that is good, ought not wée for to obey our Princes, and woulde yee hauehave vsus to take vponupon vsus for to bee wiſer then they and their Counſellers?

Zelot.

I did knowe yee were an Athieſt, ſetting vp menne in the place of God worſe then a Turke.

Ath.

Wherefore doe yée ſay ſo?

Zelot.

Tell me this, are wee for to obeye men if they commaunde that which is contrary to that which God commaundeth?

Ath.

I thinke not ſo.

Zelot.

Is there any mo then one trueth, or one religion, which is the right, and that which God commaundeth?

Ath.

There can be but one truth, that is certaine.

Zelot.

Then when one Prince commandeth one religion, another ariſeth afterwarde and commaundeth the contrarie: Will yee without difference obey them both? is not this for to denie God? is not this for to bee worſe then a Turke?

Ath.

I am ſure yée will not denie, but that wée muſt obey.

Zelot.

Hee whiche doeth diſobeye the Prince, doeth diſobey GOD, vntounto his damnation, where the prince ſetteth foorth and mainteyneth Gods worde. But if there be a prince whiche maketh lawes againſt the lawes of God, wee muſt obey GOD rather then men. But there are many as I ſaid before whiche in anye Princes dayes will ſpeake thus, if religion ſhoulde turne (ſaye they) as p. 23God forbid it ſhoulde, but if it doe, it is our partes to be obedient. Are not theſe Atheiſtes, hauehave they not denied GOD, when they ſet men in his place? And looke no higher but what men commande. But yee hauehave drawne me away againe from the matter wee were in hand with, where ye ſayd it is preſumption for a man to ſay he knoweth he ſhalbe ſaued: I may aske ye a queſtion I know ye will anſwere very boldely.

Ath.

I knowe no cauſe why I ſhoulde not anſwere boldly.

Zelot.

Yee ſay true, for blinde bayarde is the boldeſt horſe in the cart, although he bee almoſt drowned in one ſlowe yet hee will not ſticke at another, he will through when all the reſt wil ſtraine curteſie. But let vsus come to the matter whether is it greater preſumption for to beleeue that God is true, or for to doubt of the certaintie of his promiſe? & whether doeth that man honoure GOD moſt which giueth credit to his word, or hee which doubteth whether he will perfourme the ſame?

Ath.

It muſt néeds be graunted that he which beléeueth God of his word doeth wel, and he that doth not doth euill.

Zelot.

Yee ſay true, for if a Prince make an offer vntounto ſome man, whō he fauoureth, and he ſhould make aunſweare, I doubt of it, I ſcarce beleeue the performance of your promiſe: would not the Prince thinke him ſelfe greatly diſhonoured to hauehave it doubted, whether he be a man of his word? If he ſhou'd ſweare for the performance of his promiſe, & the party not truſt him, he would neuer put that vp, or beare ſuch an iniury. Then it muſt needs follow that whē God hath bound himſelfe both by promiſe and by oth, as it is ſaid Heb. cap. 6. ver. 17. How great preſumption is it not for to beleeue him? it is all one as too thinke God may lie, or that he may bee forſworne, which is horrible blaſphemy.

Ath.

I graunt this is true, if God ſhould tell any man that he ſhould be ſaued, if he did not then beleeue him. But where is that man which can ſay God euer tolde him ſo? Doth he tel any one man ſo?

Zelot.

Yea that he doth, for that which he ſendeth vntounto al in generall, he ſēdeth vntounto eueryevery one in particular: for is it not all one, if a man be condemned for treaſon, to hauehave his pardon ſēt him being but one man alone, or hauing a great ſort mo condēned vntounto death with him, a general pardon is ſent fo… thē all▪

p. 24Ath.

That is al one, for he hath his part in it.

Zelot.

Euen ſo is it betweene God and vsus, we were all condemned, he hath ſent a generall pardon to as many as beleeue the ſame, that whoſoeuer truſteth in Chriſt hee ſhalbee ſaued. God therefore hath tolde ſome men, that is, ſuch as beleeue that they ſhalbe ſaued, and ſuch as doubt of his promiſe and his oth they ſhalbe damned. Therefore is it al one in thoſe which beleeue, as if he had ſent a particular meſſage vntounto them.

Ath.

I neuer heard ſo much in all my life before.

Zelot.

I beleeue ſo▪ For S. R. can no great skill in this geare: he can whippe ouer a new payre of cardes nimbly, and tyrle a dye: but he ſhould be the meſſenger of the Lorde of hoſtes, euen as the Prophete ſaith, his lips▪ ſhoulde keepe knowledge, and men ſhoulde enquire at his mouth, hee▪ ſhoulde open all the Counſel of God vntounto the people, and not let them run headlong as they doe vntounto deſtruction. He ſhould inſtruct them in all the doctrine of faith, and repentance, & ſo guyde them in the feare of God.

Ath.

Al men cannot doe alike, we muſt accept their good will, eueryevery man cannot bee a Preacher.

Zelot.

Becauſe ye care not for ſeeking after eternall life, yee are content to accept of nothing: and becauſe yee louelove your luſtes, and hate to be refourmed, yee abhorre the vſe of preaching, and as poore a man as yee are, ye would not for xl. ſhillings ye had a Preacher among you.

Ath.

Yée euer take me at the woorſt, I allowe preaching▪ it is good nowe and then, but ſome can kéepe no meaſure nor tel when they hauehave done: Agayne they bee ouer hott and ſeuere, and preache damnation to the people. Likewiſe they meddle with ſuche matters as they néede not, as Election and Predeſtination, what ſhoulde ſuche matters be ſpoken of among the people, they make men woorſe?

Zelot.

I thinke the Diuell is the cunningeſt ſchoolemaſter in the worlde. Other ſchoolemaſters cannot bring groſſe heades and dullards to any paſſe, but content themſelues with the finer wits, for to trayne them vp in learning: but a man can almoſt light vppon none of his ſchollers, bee they neuer ſuche blockheads, but they hauehave their leſſon at their fingers ends.

Ath.

I thanke yée Sir for your good woorde: But I neuer learned it of the Diuell, nor neuer was any of his ſchollers: I p. 2truſt I hauehave as little to doe with him as you or any other.

Zelot.

Where did yee learne it then, if not of the Diuell?

Ath.

I hauehave heard honeſt men ſpeake it, and ſome Preachers preach it.

Zelot.

Then I perceiue ye learned it not of the Diuel himſelfe, but at the mouth of ſome of his Vſhers.

Ath.

Wherefore doe y…e call them the Deuilles U…hers? the hauehave ſkill in the worde of God, and ought to knowe what they ſaie.

Zelot.

I call them ſo becauſe they teach the precepts of the Diuell. And although they hauehave ſome knowledge in the woorde, yet they neuer learned theſe thinges whiche you ſpeake out of the word.

Ath.

Did the Diuell teach them berauſe they hauehave it not in Gods word?

Zelot.

It is the doctrine of the Diuell, becauſe it is againſt Gods word. For GOD neuer teacheth▪ men thoſe thinges whiche are contrary to the doctrine which he hath ſet downe in his worde.

Ath.

I thinke ye will hardly pro… ▪ theſe thinges for too bee againſt Gods worde.

Zelot.

I woulde you coulde as eaſilye proue yourſelfe to bee a good man: for then we ſhould ſoone agree.

Ath.

You are not for to iudge of mee no more then I am for to iudge of you: but there be many now a dayes which will take vppon them for to iudge men: they doe not learne that out of Gods woorde, I am ſure.

Zelot.

If I ſee a man drunken, or heare him ſweare or raile and ſuch like, and ſay, he is a naughty man, doe I iudge: ſhall I account him a good man, when I ſee hee is naught?

Ath.

When a man doth ſee thoſe naughty vices, he may boldely ſay that ſuch men are naught.

Zelot.

In like maner when a man heareth one which holdeth euill and abhominable opinions againſt the truth, he may as boldely ſay he is naught: becauſe they hauehave giuen iudgement of them ſelues, and hauehave ſhewed what they are. Nay they be ſuche as you whiche take vppon yee for to iudge: for let a man be more carefull then your ſelues for to ſerue GOD: and by and by you will enter into the ſecrets of his heart, which God onelyonly doth know, and ye will not p. 26ſticke for to pronounce that he is an hypocrite. In the meane time, let a man tell you that ye are wicked, when he doth ſee your wickedneſſe, ye aunſwere, ye ought not to iudge: but I will come for to proue that the thinges which yee ſpeake againſt preaching, are verie diueliſhe and wicked. Ye ſaid thus, I allowe preaching, it is good now and then, but ſome can keepe no meaſure, nor will neuer hauehave done.

Ath.

I ſayd ſo in deede, I will not denie my worde, and I thinke ſo ſtill. For a man may hauehave ouermuch of any thing, & ynough is as good as a feaſt.

Zelot.

A very little is ynough for you, if the Preacher doe paſſe his houre but a little, your buttokes beginne for to ake, and ye wiſhe in your hearte that the Pulpit would fall.

Ath.

Ye may geſſe twiſe before yee geſſe ſo right.

Zelot.

Nay I canne geſſe ſomewhat neere in ſuche a man as yee are: but I praye yee did yee neuer ſitte at Cardes all night?

Ath.

Yes that I hauehave, and thought it but a ſhort night too.

Zelot.

The cauſe why yee thinke an houre ſo long at a Sermon, & a whole night ſo ſhort at Cardes, is, that ye delight in the one and care not for the other: the carding is ioyned with much ſinne and ſeruice of the Deuill, the other is for to bring vsus vntounto the knowledge and feare of GOD: Marke nowe howe much by your owne confeſſion ye louelove the Diuell more then GOD? for him doe ye louelove moſt, whom ye delight to ſerue moſt.

Ath.

Can wee not ſerue God without ſo much preaching? I ſee they are neuer the better which runne moſt after ſermons, they talke much, but I woulde hauehave them leaue talking and fall to doing, wee ſée no doing but men are ſtill euen as euill as beefore.

Zelot.

Can your ſeruant ſerue you vnleſſe he know your will?

Ath.

No that hée cannot.

Zelot.

No more can you ſerue GOD without the knowledge of his will, and as for the reſt of your ſpeech, when ye crie out againſt preaching of Gods woorde, that it maketh men neuer the better, and ye would hauehave them leaue talking, and fall to doing: I confeſſe there be a number which are counterfeite profeſſors which liue not according p. 27to the Goſpell, and moſt commonly they be ſuch, as hauehave but a little ſmacke of the Goſpel, and yet thinke they know much, becauſe they want the meanes, hauing the worde either ſeldome or looſely preached. But I will confute your vanitie another waye in this point, tell me, are not theſe your ſayinges? where the woorde is ſincerely preached▪ if any ſeeke to frame their liues after the ſame, when they doe eyther by woorde reprooue your euill wayes, or by deede refuſe your lewde maners: Theſe men are full of the Spirite, theſe are preciſe fellowes, theſe are holie Saintes, theſe thinke them ſelues Gods fellowes: theſe thinke them ſelues better then all other men.

Ath.

We ſay ſo in deede, there is good cauſe why.

Zelot.

Then I pray ye tell me howe theſe two thinges can hang together, when ye ſaie there is no amendement of life, and yet yee complaine that they be ouer full of the ſpirit, ouer preciſe, and ſuch like. May not eueryevery man ſee, that ye pronounce thinges directly contrarie the one to the other? that there is no amendment, and yet in effect, ye ſay, they amende ouer▪ faſt.

Ath.

Wee doe not ſaye that any doe amende ouer faſt.

Zelot.

When ye ſay they are ouer holy, and what ſhoulde men be ſo curious and full of the ſpirite, what is this but to ſay, that they amende ouer faſt? Is not this to amend when men by due inſtruction out of Gods woorde come to repentaunce of their former vices? and hauehave a care to keepe them ſelues from the ſpottes of the rotten fleſhe and filthie worlde. Do not you and ſuch as you are after a ſort blaſpheme, when yee reproche men with the ſpirite? Is it a ſhame for a man nowe a dayes for to hauehave anye thing to doe with the ſpirite of God? While a man doeth walke after the fleſhe in the luſtes of vncleanneſſe, he is an honeſt man: But ſo ſoone as hee is indued with any grace, ye wonder at him as crowes do at an owle, yee are readie to floute and mocke him out of his skinne. And as if the ſpirite of GOD were a ſpirite of diſhonour and ſhame, yee mocke men with him. Wee may wonder at the longe patience of GOD, which hath thus many yeeres ſuffered himſelfe to be diſhonoured, his ſpirite reuiled, his woorde deſpiſed, and hath not been reuenged, but no doubt the longer hee hath …aried, the heauier will the ſtroke be.

Ath.

Men are men, what ſhoulde they p. 28make themſelues more holy then they be?

Zelot.

If ye meane one way ye ſay right, for it is a naughtie vice for men to ſeeme to be holy when they are not, or to ſeeme to be more holy then they be: but if yee meane another way (as I thinke ye doe) that becauſe men are ſinfull by nature, why ſhoulde they ſeeke for to be better, then doe ye ſpeake verie wickedly. For God calleth men to repentance, to turne from their euill wayes: God guideth his ſeruants at all times with his ſpirite, therfore S. paule ſayth Rom. 8. There Is no condemnation nowe to thoſe whiche are in Chriſt Ieſus, which walke not after the fleſhe, but after the ſpirite. And againe in the ſame chapter, As many as are led by the ſpirite of God, are the ſonnes of God. Hee ſayth that if wee liue after the fleſhe, we ſhall dye: in other places he doth ſhewe, whiche are the workes of the ſpirite, and whiche are the workes of the fleſhe: And you like blaſphemous wretches allowe thoſe whiche walke after the fleſh, and condemne thoſe which are led by the ſpirite.

Ath.

Are none indued with Gods Spirite, but ſuch as runne to heare preaching?

Zelot

Whoſoeuer hath the ſpirite of God, can not but delight in the woorde of God, whiche the ſame ſpirite hath vttered: The Lorde ſaith, hee which is of God, heareth Gods worde: The happie man is hee (as wee hauehave in the 1. Pſalme) whiche hath his delight in the lawe of the Lorde, and which doeth meditate in the ſame day and night? We hauehave in the pſalme 112. Bleſſed is the man which feareth the Lorde, hee hath great delight in his commaundements.

Moreouer, the ſpirite of GOD doeth not guide men without the woorde. And therefore it is ſaide Pſalme 119. Thy woorde is a lanterne vntounto my feete, and a light vntounto my pathes. S Peter ſayth, I. Epiſt. 1. Hee hath beegotten vsus againe not of mortall but of immortall ſeede, which he affirmeth to bee the worde of God that indureth for euer. Likewiſe S. Iames ſaith cap. 1. of his owne good will begat hee vsus, by the woord of trueth. Seeing therfore that the holy Ghoſt doth guide men by the worde, it followeth that all thoſe which ſet light by the woorde, are led, not with the ſpirite of God, but with the ſpirite of the Diuell. I might alleadge a number of teſtimonies of Scripture to prooue that ſuch as you which make ſo ſmall accompt of the ſacred woorde of God, as there be a number, p. 29yea the greateſt number whiche doe not ſet ſo muche by it as they doe by an olde ſhoe, are deſpicers of God, worſe then brute beaſtes.

Ath.

Cannot men be lead by Gods ſpirit and ſerue God, vnleſſe they knowe the Scriptures▪ GOD forbidde that all thoſe ſhoulde bee awry which are not learned: is it not enough for plaine countrie men, plow men, taylours, and ſuche other, for to hauehave their ten commaundementes, the Lordes prayer, and the beliefe: I thinke theſe may ſuffice vsus, what ſhoulde wee meddle further: I knowe men whiche are no ſcripture men, whiche ſerue GOD as well as the beſt of them all. Will yee condemne ſuch?

Zelot.

I ſayde before that men can not be lead by Gods ſpirite, and refuſe to knowe the Scriptures: Neyther can they truelie ſerue him vntill ſuche time as they knowe howe for to ſerue him: for GOD teacheth howe he will be ſerued, and hee teacheth onlie in his worde: his will is that we ſhal learne to know him by his worde. And therefore he hath appointed the Miniſterie of the woorde to continue for euer in his Church, that by it men may be built vp in Chriſte, as yee may reade Ephe. 4. For this cauſe S. Paule▪ exhorteth Tymothie to bee inſtant in teaching in ſeaſon & out of ſeaſon: he trauelled himſelfe night and daie, he maketh a verie fer…e… prayer to God continuallie for the Colloſſians, that they might bee fulfilled with the knowledge of his will, in all wiſdome and ſpirituall vnderſtanding. Colloſ. ver. 9. For this cauſe hee exhorteth the Chriſtians to bee children in malice, but not to bee children in vnderſtanding. The holy Ghoſt doth ſharpely reprooue the Hebrewes as wee may ſee, in the latter end of the 5. chap. of that Epiſtle: becauſe they were yet children to be taught, when for the time they ſhoulde hauehave been teachers. Againe there is a notable ſentence in the beginning of the ſeconde chap. of the prouerbs, where a man may playnlie prooue, that none can come to the feare of god, but ſuch as doe earneſtlie endeuour for to knowe God. The wordes be theſe. My ſonne, if thou receiue my wordes, & hide my commaundements with thee, to incline thine eares to wiſdome, and to bow thy heart to vnderſtanding: if thou call for vnderſtanding, and vtter thy voyce for knowledge: if thou ſeeke her as ſiluer, and digge for her as for hidde treaſures: Then ſhalt thou vnderſtande p. 30the feare of the Lorde and finde the knoweledge of God. If a man doe not receiue the woorde and commandementes of God vttered by his Miniſters, if he doe not keepe and lay them vp, if he doe not cry and call vponupon God for vnderſtanding, if hee doe not incline his eares & bende his heart thereto, if he doe not ſearche and digge after her as men doe for treaſures: he ſhall not come to the knowledge of the feare of God.

Ath.

All men cannot come to theſe things which you ſpeake of.

Zelot.

All men which will pleaſe GOD muſt come thus farre, that can ſaye with the Prophete Dauid in the 119. Pſalme. I hauehave hidden thy worde in my heart▪ that I might not ſinne againſt thee. Alſo in the ſame place when hee hath asked the queſtion. Wherewithall a younge man ſhall cleanſe his wayes, hee aunſwereth, by taking heede there to according to thy worde: where by it is moſt euident, that all thoſe are vnpure in their waies, and ſinne greeuouſly againſt God, which hauehave not layde vp his woorde in their heartes, nor cleanſed their wayes by the ſame.

But let vsus come to ſome other of your ſayings, which I am greeued for to heare.

Ath.

Yee neede not to be greeued, for I doe not hurt ye.

Zelot.

I can not but bee greeued to ſee your groſſe and palpable blindneſſe: and I am the more greeued when I remember that many which are otherwiſe verie wiſe men vſe muche your doltiſhe ſayinges, and thinke they ſpeake very wiſely. They ſay what ſhould vnlearned men meddle further then to ſay their ten commaundements, the Lords praier, and the articles of the faith. And you are of the ſame minde.

Ath.

I truſt to doe as well with theſe, as other with all their learning.

Zelot.

Doe yee thinke that yee ſhall doe well euen becauſe ye can ſay them: although yee do not vnderſtande them?

Ath.

Nay if a man ſay them, and doe not vnderſtand them, hee is little the better. I knowe not why I ſhoulde not vnderſtande them, ſo long as God hath giuen mee my fiue wittes: I am no childe, nor I am no foole.

Zelot.

In deede hee that hath one good wit, is no foole, muche leſſe are you whiche hauehave fiue: you muſt needes knowe all and p. 31more: For I thinke ye meane, that ye are able by reaſon to vnderſtand thoſe things.

Ath.

I truſt I vnderſtand by that reaſon which God hath giuen me, ſo much as is ſufficient: I can tell when I doe well, and I can tell when I doe euill.

Zelot.

I perceiue you are a fre will man, one of thoſe which thinke by naturall vnderſtanding too conceiue the myſteries of GOD: And yee doe in deede vnderſtand ſo much as is ſufficient: not for to ſaue ye, but as S. Paule ſayth Rom. 1. to make ye without excuſe: & ſo to condemne ye. You know ſome ſinnes: and likewiſe ye can tell ſome thinges which are good, but ye can neuer tell any thing which ye hauehave done that is good.

Ath.

I truſt GOD will bée more fauourable then you are: and that hée will not forgette the good déedes which I hauehave done.

Zelot.

A very little box I warrant you will holde all your deedes, if ye hauehave no moe olde deedes then you hauehave good deedes.

Ath.

Are not theſe good deedes, when a man doth giuegive to the poore, and is readie to doe his neighbour a good turne? when a man doth liue honeſtly, ſerue God, and thinke no man any harme.

Zelot.

Now ye ſpeake of coſt: now ye are hit into your right vaine againe, euen where ye would be, to boaſt of thoſe thinges which ye hauehave not: for none of all thoſe or ſuch like are good in you, becauſe they doe not proceed of faith: for S. Paul ſaith Rom. 14. ver. 23. Whatſoeuer is not of faith is ſinne.

Ath.

How can yee prooue that mine are not of fayth?

Zelot.

Faith is by hearing, and hearing by the word Rom. 10. 17. where a man deſpiſeth the worde, there can be no faith: becauſe faith is grounded vponupon the worde, and doth not beleeue thinges conttarye vntounto the woorde. Moreouer, they be not your fiue wittes, (as you terme them) which can make ye able for to vnderſtande the myſteries of Gods worde. For they cannot be vnderſtood as Saint Paule teacheth. 1. Corinth. 2. 11. Vnleſſe God reueale them by his ſpirite: for euen the wicked which ſeeme to knowe them, doe not know them aright. But let vsus come for to ſee how well ye doe vnderſtand the ten commaundements. Do ye not looke to come to heauen, by doing of them?

Ath.

I doe them as nigh as God will p. 32giuegive me grace, I truſt God will not require more at my hands then I am able for to doe: I am as he made me? if he had made mee able for to do better I ſhoulde do more.

Zelot.

Now ye are in a deepe peece of diuinity, ye thinke this is ſo equall which yee vtter now, that all the Doctors in the world are not able for to controllye. Ye ſay ye do what ye can, more God cannot require at your handes: you meane as if one ſhoulde make this compariſon: a father canne require no more of his child then his ſtrength wil ſerue, a Prince can commaund his ſubiect no impoſſible thing: if a father ſhoulde whippe his childe for not doing that which he is not able, it were crueltie: if a Prince ſhould put a ſubiect to death for not doyng his commaundement in a matter vponſſible, it were tyranny: the father will ſay. My child did his good will I can aske no more: The Prince will ſay he hath done that which a man might, and further I cannot require. Likewiſe you thinke GOD ſhoulde deale ſtraightly with ye, if he ſhoulde condemne ye for breaking the Lawe, which ye are not able to obſerue: & that he cannot looke for more at your handes then he hath made yee able to perfourme.

Ath.

I meane ſo in déede, fleſh is fr…ile. wée cannot doe all things.

Zelot.

I pray ye tell me, doe yee thinke any ſhall goe to hell and be damned?

Ath.

The Scripture ſaith there ſhall, doth it not?

Zelot.

Wherefore doe ye thinke they ſhalbe damned?

Ath.

For breaking Gods commaundements.

Zelot.

Are they able for too keepe them?

Ath.

No man is able for to keepe them.

Zelot.

Shall they then be damned for euer in hell fire, for breaking thoſe laws which they were not able to keepe?

Ath.

Not if they had done their good will: For then they coulde not bee blamed.

Zelot.

Howe the Diuel hath muffled you too keepe yee from ſeeyng the daunger of eternall damnation which ye are in: hauehave yee neuer hearde that whiche GOD ſayth by Moſes, which S. Paule citeth in the 3. Chap. to the Galath. Curſed is eueryevery one whiche abydeth not in all thinges which are written p. 33in the booke of the law for to doe them: by which yee may ſee that God with his own mouth doth lay his curſe (which is dānatiō) vppon eueryevery one which doth breake neuer ſo litle of the law.

Ath.

GOD is mercifull, hee is not ſo ſenere as you woulde make him for to bee.

Zelot.

Doe ye not thinke that he is a iuſt and a true God?

Ath.

I muſt needes thinke ſo.

Zelot.

Do ye thinke that when he hath vttered his iuſtice, that he can by his mercy goe from it; and ſo be ſound vn true? Nay there bee many of yee which in all thinges crie God is mercifull, GOD is mercifull, which neuer conſider with what conditions GOD hath promiſed mercy, neyther how it may ſtand with his iuſtice and trueth: ye thinke GOD offereth mercy without exception.

Ath.

If God bee not mercifull wee are but in an euill caſe.

Zelot.

He is a moſt mercifull and gratious God, but yet not vntounto any, but ſuche as he hath promiſed mercy. Howe many thouſandd there be, which are caried headlong to hell with this error, which not knowing the iuſtice and truth of GOD, doe bleſſe them ſelues where God hath accurſed them. For theſe thinges which you hauehave now v…tered, are euen of the principall reaſons which Satan doth ſeduce men withall; and holde them from the truth. They thinke thus, I do what I can, God hath made me able to doe no better, God is mercifull, they know not this, that God made vsus able in our firſt creation to keepe and obey his will wholly, and that although we can now keepe no part of it, yet he may iuſtly accurſe and condemne vsus vntounto eternall fire, for tranſgreſſing any part of it: ye are not as he made ye, and therfore ye deceiue your ſelfe when yee thinke that he requireth no more at your handes, then ye are now able for to doe. Ye deceiue your ſelfe, when ye think that GOD can be mercifull vntounto ye, and you liue without repentance.

Ath.

You woulde make a man diſpaire, if ye would put him out of hope in the merciemercy of God.

Zelot.

I would not bring ye out of hope in the mercy of God, but I would bring ye ou… of your vaine hope, which is not that which wil ſaue ye, but doth harden and blind ye vntounto damnation.

p. 34Ath.

How can a mans hope and fayth hi God, ha…en and blinde him vntounto damnation? Now a dayes there is nothing among many of ye but damnation, damnation. It is well that God hath not giuen you power for to condemne ….

Zelot.

If it were a true fayth, it muſt needes … them, but being a faith which is blinde, it blindeth thoſe which hauehave it, and hard …h then …in their ſinnes, and keepeth them from the ſeeking after the knowledge of Gods will, and ſtayeth them from returning home vntounto God by true repentance, becauſe it breadeth this in the hearts of men, to thinke and to ſay, we are welynough, we … God… …, we beleeue as well as the beſt of them all: when as if they were ridd… out of this notable ſnare of the. Deuil, and brought for to ſee the wrath of GOD bent againſt them, they woulde then be glad with feare and trembling to ſeeke after the Lorde in his woorde, and to bee afraide to committe thoſe thinges whiche might diſpleaſe him. Where as nowe a man may… crye vntill he rende▪ his throate ag… t…ir contempt of the Lordes word, and agaynſt their fowle ſinnes, before hee i… an mooue them at all: and why? becauſe the deuill hath gotten them within this fortreſſe: GOD is merciful, God is merciful. And for your other fooliſh words, that there is now nothing but damnation damnation: Do ye thinke that men are euer, the ſooner caſt into damnation; becauſe they are told of the great danger thereof?

Ath.

I pray ye… let me ſee what good can come thereof.

Zelot.

If I ſhoulde mee…e ye by the way and perceiue that yee were going into the way where ye ſhoulde light among theeues, which would murther yee: which were moſt profitable for you, if I ſhould tell yee, thus, ye bee well, yee be well, or to ſhewe yee that yee bee in daunger of your life, if yee paſſe that way?

Ath.

That were a wicked part for to let a man goe where he ſhoulde looſe his life and not for to tell him.

Zelot.

Wherefore doe yee not ſee then that thoſe which doe ſhew ye the daunger of damnation doe it for your profit, as well as they which teach ye to auoyde ſome outwarde daunger. If a man tell ye thus, goe not that way, ye wil be robbed, ye wil be killed, doth it follow that he will robbe or kill ye? becauſe ye ſay, men now vtter damnation▪ p. 35and that it is well they hauehave not power too condemne men. And know this for certaintie, that if God in his woorde doe threaten damnation, and the preacher doe not ſhewe it to the people, and teach them howe to auoide the ſame, their blood ſhall be required at his hande. But let vsus come backe againe to the former matter to ſee howe well yee vnderſtand your x commaundements. I would knowe this of yee, whether it be good for men to knowe the lawe, ſeeing it doeth nothing but curſe and condemne vsus: if there were no lawe, there coulde be no ſinne. I ſpeake both of the lawe of nature, and of the lawe written, and if there were no ſinne, there coulde bee no condemnation: For this cauſe the lawe is called the miniſterie of death and condemnation, and it is called the letter which killeth 2. Corinth. 3. Seeing it doeth woorke all this, what profite can it bring for to know it, or why ſhould it be preached?

Ath.

I pray ye tell me you, for I am vnlearned, and you are learned. If it bee as you ſay, I thinke it were good not to preach it: if it doe condemne vsus.

Zelot.

What a ſhame is it that a man of your age ſhoulde hauehave ſo little skill, as not to knowe to what purpoſe the lawe ſerueth, It is a token ye vnderſtande your x. commaundements well. I will tell yee, when a man knoweeth the lawe, it doeth bring him to ſee that he is altogether corrupted with ſinne, both in bodie and ſoule, that he is vnderunder▪ Gods heauie indignation and … ▪ and that in himſelfe there is no helpe at all, it caſteth him into feare and terrour of Gods iudgementes, and ſo inforceth him to ſeeke for remedie in Chriſte, whom before he did not greatly ſeeke after▪ For looke how a man which doth not thinke himſelfe ſicke nor in daunger of ſickneſſe careth not for a Phiſition: ſo he which doeth not knowe his damnable eſtate by the lawe, careth not for Chriſte: This is the cauſe why Chriſt ſayeth: The whole neede not the Phiſition, but the ſicke, I came not to call the righteous, but ſinners to repentaunce▪ Therefore to ſuch as hauehave wounded conſciences, the Goſpel is ſweete and comfortable; and Chriſte in the latter ende of the eleuenth Chapter of S. Matthew, calleth ſuch vntounto him, ſaying: Come vntounto mee all yee which trauell and bee heauie loden, and I will refreſhe yee. But ſuch as hauehave no feeling of their ſinnes, or whiche are blinded and hardened, yee ſhall perceiue ſmall ioye and delight in them for to heare the worde preached: p. 36they had rather be at Bearebayting.

Ath.

Ye ſay well, I would I coulde remember your wordes.

Zelot.

There be many which will ſeeme to be deſirous for to learne, but a man ſhall ſee, they continue euen as careleſſe as beefore: But I will goe on with this matter. The Scripture ſaith, that a ſorowfull ſpirite is a ſacrifice to God: and that God doeth not deſpiſe the humble and contrite heart: But men are afraide to be brought to the knoweledge and feeling of their ſinnes for feare as they ſay, leaſt they ſhoulde be driuen into diſpaire: as though that were a ſafe protection for them for a time to▪ be in a ſenſeleſſe ſecuritie: and as though they were in the better caſe, becauſe they make no conſcience of their ſinnes. Whereas indeede thoſe whiche are pricked and wounded with their ſinnes, are in the way to repentance, when the other are farre off.

Ath.

I coulde like your wor…es the better, but that ye would hauehave men not to truſt to their fayth: is it not good to beleeue well?

Zelot.

There is nothing good in men, vnleſſe they beleeue well: and wee can not truſte too muche vntounto ſayth: but you doe not vnderſtande what faith is. Tell me this, doth faith beleeue according as God ſetteth downe, and ſpeaketh in his worde, or doth it beleeue contrary to that which God vttereth?

Ath.

It doeth not beleeue contrarye too that which God vttereth.

Zelot.

Let vsus ſee then, when God ſetteth downe and ſheweth which are the works of the fleſh, and threatneth damnation vntounto all thoſe which walke in them: when God ſetteth downe that the de…piſers of his word ſhalbe condemned: and yet men which are defiled with the filthineſſe of the fleſhe, and walke after their corrupt luſtes do boldely bragge that they beleeue to be ſaued: & ſetting naught by Gods▪ worde, ſay they truſt in God: is this faith? God affirmeth one thing, and yet they beleeue the contrary: but ſee the blindneſſe of men now a dayes, when they heare vaine and brutiſh men boaſt of their faith, yee doe well ſay they, to hauehave a good beliefe, when as in deede it is no more but a proud preſumption, wherewith God is highly diſpleaſed, becauſe by it they woulde make him a Lyar. When the ſonne of man commeth, ſhall he finde fayth in earth? If this be faith, he ſhall finde great plentie of it eueryevery where. For the Idolater, the ſwearer, the p. 37drunkard, the proude, the Adulterer, are as full of faith as they can be thruſt. For eueryevery one of theſe doeth bragge that hee hath as good a faith to God as he whiche is the moſt holy of all.

Ath.

Theſe may repent and bee ſaue…, or elſe God for bid.

Zelot.

I doe not ſpeake what God is able to doe in calling as hee doeth call ſome ſuch vntounto repentaunce: but what they hauehave in them preſently. But I will ſee a little further howe great skill you hauehave in the law▪ of God, becauſe ye neede ſo litle preaching▪ What ſay ye vntounto the ſecond cōmandement, is it lawful for a man to worſhip idol…?

Ath.

I thanke God I do not worſhip any, for that is …atly forbidden.

Zelot.

What ſay ye for the making of any image or picture of god, do ye thinke that is … ▪

Ath.

For making it is no matter▪ ſo that a man hauehave no confidenee in them.

Zelot.

Howe do ye then vnderſtande the wordes of the commaundement, which ſay, Thou ſha… not make to thy ſelfe any grauen image, &c.

Ath.

He…aneth that wée ſhoulde not make anye gra…en Image … worſhip it.

Zelot.

That is your owne addition▪ for there is no ſuche exception expreſſed, neyther can the order of the commaundement beare it: for he doth not ſay, Thou ſhalt not make to the intent to worſhip, but thou ſhalt neither make not worſhip.

Ath.

If yee take it ſo, then why are Paynter allowed to make any picture▪ how is it lawfull to hauehave▪ the image of the Prince in coyne?

Zelot.

I will ſhewe yee your errour, you doe not vnderſtande that the lawe was deuided into two Tables and that in the firſt Table, which hath 4. commaundementes, there is nothing commaunded or forbidden, but that which reſpecteth immediatly the woorſhippe and honour of God, hee medleth not with any ciuill or pollitike matter▪ hee doth abſolutely forbid to make as I may … it any diuine image, any ſimilitude for to repreſent God, or to bee like him: becauſe as the ſcripture ſheweth, there can no likeneſſe or ſimilitude be made of God. For he … ſpirite of glorie▪ infinite, incomprehenſible, Which dwelleth in light, which none canne come vntounto: and therefore ye may reade in the Epiſtle to the Rom. cap. 1. how horrible a ſin p. 38it was to ſet vp any image or likneſſe of God: therfore the pictures of the trinitie and ſuche like are very abhominable. But to let this paſſe, what ſay ye for the worſhipping of thē: whether is it idolatrie, or not, if a man meane to woorſhip God by the image, and not the image it ſelfe?

Ath.

How can that be idolatrie▪ when a man … worſhippe none but God, hee knoweth that the image cannot helpe him.

Zelot.

Then your meaning is, that, vnleſſe a man do either worſhip the very image it ſelfe▪ or elſe ſome falſe God in the image that it is no idolatrie?

Ath.

I ſee no reaſon to the contrarye: and I thanke GOD I neuer was ſo …o… liſ… as to take a blocke or a ſtone for to bee God.

Zelot.

Then yee thinke your ſelfe cle…t… in this commaundement, yee were neuer, any idolater: ye neuer kneeled or played … any idoll?

Ath.

I hauehave kneeled before them▪ and prayed before them, but I neuer tooke them to be God, neither did I pray vntounto any▪ ſaue vntounto the Lord God. I truſt God will … charge me to b…e an idolater.

Zelot.

All you Athieſtes which hauehave no knowledge of God, are crammed as full of popiſhe droſſe as ye can holde, ſauing that ye will not abide by it, but goe with the lawes of princes, afraide to looſe the world▪ becauſe ye hauehave made the world your God.

Ath.

I defie poperie as much as the beſt of ye all.

Zelot.

Euen as muche as yee defie the deuel, whome yee ſerue dayly. For ye vſe popiſhe reaſons to excuſe your falling from God by Idolatrie, and whereby a man may eaſily ſee that you …re readye vntounto it againe if time ſerued.

Ath.

I ſee I muſte let yee alone to iudge what ye luſt.

Zelot.

Nay yee vſe the verie popiſhe reaſons: whereby they woulde prooue when we charge them with the breache of this commaundement, that they doe not committe Idolatrie: for ſay they, when the Scripture doeth condemne that ſinne, it is meant of ſuch as worſhip fained Gods, as the heathen men did, or ſuch as do worſhip the image it ſelfe, and take it for to be God. But I will deale with ye by Gods woord. What doe y…e ſuppoſe of the children of Iſrael, when they came to Aaron, to hauehave him make them p. 39Gods to goe before them, when Moſes taried ſo long in the moūt: did they commit this great ſinne of Idolatry?

Ath.

They did commit idolatrie, and the booke ſaith they were deſtroyed, a great number of them.

Zelot.

What? was their intent to worſhip any beſides the true God?

Ath.

That it was, for they deſired Aaron for to make them Gods.

Zelot.

What thinke ye they tooke Aaron for to be, a man, or a God?

Ath.

That is a queſtion in deede: howe could they thinke him to be a God?

Zelot.

Did they thinke that Aaron being but a man had power for to make a God?

Ath.

If they thought ſo, they were but fooles.

Zelot.

And if you thinke they thought ſo, ye ſhall prooue no great wiſe man. For which way can a man perſwade any, that a man can make a God? Or could they become more brutiſhe then a calfe, for to beleeue that the car…inges of golde turned into the ſimilitude of a calfe, were nowe become GOD? No my friend it is very playne, that they meant no more but an image of God and that which ſhould repreſent God, and put them in minde of him ye muſt not think they were ſo fooliſh, although they were very fooliſh as the holy Ghoſt in one pſal. chargeth them, that they turned their glory into the ſimilitude of a calfe whiche eateth hay: This then is plaine enough, that they, meant not for to worſhip the golden calfe it ſelfe, but God in the Calfe. Let vsus ſee then, did they meane for to worſhip any other by the calfe, beſides the true God?

Ath.

It ſeemeth they did, or els why ſhould they ſay Gods, for there is but one God.

Zelot.

Now ye are light vponupon a very poore ſhift: for we may as well ſay: This is thy God O Iſrael, or make vsus a God to go before vsus. For the Scripture it ſelfe, in the Hebrew tongue, although it teach that there is but one God, yet ſpeaketh of him in the plural number, and ſaith Gods, for excellencie or dignities ſake, as we ſee Princes here in the world when any of them ſpeaketh, he doth not ſay, I, but we, not my perſon, but our perſon. For the phraſe of the Scripture, I might alleadge diuers places, but you cannot vnderſtande, but in your owne tongue… neuertheleſſe I will cite one it is in the Pla… Elohim Shophetim Hu: God is the iudge… p. 40but the words are Gods, he is iudge.

Ath.

Can you prooue that they meant to worſhip none but the true God?

Zelot.

It is eaſie to be proued, both by the words of the people themſelues, when they ſay, theſe be thy Gods O Iſrael, which brought thee out of the lande of Egypt: they meant not to change their GOD which brought them out from Pharao, and ledde them through the red Sea: neither did they thinke that the calfe which Aaron hadd made, was he which deuided the Sea, and drowned Pharao with his hoſt, but they tooke it for an image of that God, and not of any feyned God, and alſo by the woordes of Aaron, when he ſayth. To morrowe ſhalbe a feaſt to Iehouah, which name was neuer giuen to any, but to the God of heauen, at the leaſt in thoſe dayes, the God of Iſrael had that name peculier vntounto himſelfe. Then ye may ſee, they worſhipped not the Idole it ſelfe, but God in the Idol, they meant not to woorſhip any falſe God, but the God of heauen, which had deliuered them, & yet they did commit foule Idolatry and fell from God, in ſo much that God was exceeding wrath with them. Likewiſe in popery ye fell from God when ye bowed vntounto images.

Ath.

I hope not, becauſe I did not as they did, they put a deuotion in it, I meant no ſuche thinge, but too bee obedient too a lawe.

Zelot.

Thē your meaning is, that you kept your heart and conſcience to God, and went with your body but for faſhion?

Ath.

So long as I did keepe my conſcience and heart to God, I truſt I did well enough.

Zelot.

Then you thinke God requireth not to be woorſhipped but with your ſoule, & that you may ſerue the Diuell with your body. Ye thinke alſo that God doth not require the outwarde confeſſion of the mouth, although it ſhoulde be with loſſe of life.

Ath.

Yee doe not heare mee ſaye, that wee may woorſhippe the Diuell with our bodies.

Zelot.

You might heare your ſelfe ſay ſo, but that ye ſay ye know not what: for herein ye are ignoraunt, that the woorſhippe of images is the woorſhippe of Diuels. But I knowe there be many trimme wiſe heades, which excuſe the matter & cleere themſelues this way, that they make no deuotion of the image, or any other thing in the ſeruice of p. 41the Pope, their conſcience is free to GOD, they ſerue and feare him▪ what doth it hu…e them, although they come outwardely with their bodie, vntounto the other: what ſhould they indanger themſelues in ſo ſmall a matter? But will ye heare me what I can ſay out of Gods word againſt you, and ſuch fellowes?

Ath.

I will heare you gladly. I am not ſo wilfull, as not to heare.

Zelot.

There were amongeſt the Corinthians, diuers Chriſtians which were perſwaded that it was a matter indifferent to goe to the Idole temple, and there to ſit at the feaſt with the infidels▪ whiche they made in honour of the Idole, and to …ate of the meate which had beene …l… in ſacrifice vntounto the Idole: They excuſed the exact in this wiſe, that they had knowledge, they vnderſtood well that the Idole was nor GOD, they went not of anie deuotion at all, as touching the worſhip and ſeruice which the heathen men did vſe, but for friendſhip and neighbourhood ſake … they woulde not refuſe to eate with ſuche as were th… kinsfolkes or acquaintance. Nowe although S. Paule doth mildlie … with them, and aunſweareth their reaſons in the … and …. chapter: yet in the 10. Chap. hec dealeth very roughly with them, duplicate page p. 41duplicate page duplicate page p. 41duplicate page ſetting before them the terrible example of Gods wrath vppon Idolaters, and ſheweth plainly, that they were partakers of the table of diuels, and that they drāk of the cup of diuels, howſoeuer they thought they kept them ſelues and their conſciēces free and vnpolluted. Euen ſo I conclude, that theſe worldlings which vſe this ſhift, now little deuotion ſoeuer they hauehave, yet they hauehave no leſſe then the Corinthians had in the Idole feaſt, therefore, when S. Paule affirmeth, that they committed idolatrie, it muſt needes follow that theſe do much more.

Ath.

Well, if the matter be heard, that it be an offence, I truſt God will forgiue vsus.

Zelot.

It is your manner although a ſinn be neuer ſo foule, yet to make ſmal account of it, but like a dogge, that is wounded, ye thinke ye can by this meanes lick your ſelues whole, if ye can but ſay, I hope GOD wil forgiue vsus.

Ath.

If you ſay true, then al our forefathers ſhould be condemned, becauſe they did worſhip images. I doubt not but God was as mercifull vntounto them, as hee is vntounto men now: I think they pleaſed GOD better then wée doe nowe: let vsus not ſtand ſo much in our owne light.

p. 42Zelot.

It is a meruellous thing for to ſee, how the Diuell doth dazle mens eies, and howe he doth bewitch them. Theſe thinges which you vtter, and ſuche like, are euen like a vaile before your eyes, ſo that yee are not able for to hauehave any ſight into Gods woorde. Howe groſſe and doltiſhe ſoeuer the matter bee, if yee can ſay thus, our forefathers did it, will ye condemne thē, then all is ſafe enough. But ſee howe yee are ouer ſeene, all our forefathers did not fall from God by idolatrie, for euen in the pride of the reigne of Antichriſt, there were ſome ſtood vp againſt him, in diuers countreis. There were alwaies ſome whō God lightened to ſee the abhominatiōs of the man of ſin, & ſo to repent & take hold of Chriſt: & God who is alwaies like himſelfe receiued them to merciemercy. And doubtles God is more now diſpleaſed with ſuch as do now wilfully kicke and ſpurne againſt the trueth, and ſeeke for to quench the glorious light of the Goſpel, then he was with thē, from whō the word of God was taken away, and being blinde, they were made for to beleeue eueryevery lye, and therefore nowe when God offereth his grace, and ſeeketh by his worde to expell that groſſe darkenes, it were good for ſuch as you, not to ſtande in your owne light, and obſtinatelie to refuſe the knowledge of GOD. Our forefathers had that great plague came vponupon them, which S. Paul did foretell. 2. Theſe. 2. Namely, that there ſhoulde bee a falling away, that Antichriſt ſhoulde deceaue the worlde, and bring them to damnation: for GOD (he ſaith) ſhould ſende them ſtrong deluſion, euen for to beleeue lies, becauſe they receaued not the louelove of the trueth, that they might be ſaued: and now when God offereth his worde agayne, men do not ioyfully and thankfully embrace it, and therefore God doth ſende them ſhepheards euen after their heartes deſire: not to feede them (for they cannot) but to fleeſe thē for that they can skill off: not to bee ſalt for to ſeaſon them, but to bee euen like doung caſt vppon them for to corrupt them: not to giuegive them light, ſeeing themſelues are blind. The greateſt number of you are as farre from God, as they were euen in the blindeſt time of Poperie, and that is confeſſed by your owne mouth, when ye ſay yee woulde follow our forefathers: For ye meane not thoſe Forefathers which did know and woorſhipp God aright, but thoſe which were ſeduced, and fell from him by Idolatrie. I am verie loth for to queſtion with yee any further in p. 43the commandementes, yee are ſo exceeding blinde in them. For I knowe that in our land, let all the people be numbred, and fiue parts of yee doe vnderſtand ſo much in the commaundements, Lords prayer, and articles of the fayth, that it were a greate ſhame for a godlie man to hauehave a childe of x. yeeres olde for to knowe no more.

Ath.

How can yée tell that? I thinke yée goe beyond your booke, hauehave yée poſed all?

Zelot.

I goe not ſo farre beyonde my booke, as you thinke I doe. And although I hauehave not poſed all, yet I hauehave poſed ſo many, that I knowe what the ſtate of the moſt is. This I finde that in the beſt and moſt religious townes generallie, the greateſt part hauehave verie little zeale. This I find, that where there is one of theſe townes which are forwarde, there bee fiue which are not, becauſe they want teaching. This further I knowe by experience, that thoſe which are the willing ones, and as it were the daylie hearers for a long time are verie raw when they bee examined. Thē iudg you what is in the reſt, which are verie ſeldome taught, or refuſe for to bee taught. And if this be not true, let mee looſe my hand. And yet there be idle bellies, which are not aſhamed with open mouth to crie that leſſe preaching woulde ſerue, and that there is knowledge enough among the people: when the poore people doe not vnderſtande ſo much as the Lordes prayer: vnleſſe they would holde them ſtill in poperie, they can be no more ignorant.

Ath.

I could like the better, if the preaching might be only vpō the ſabboth day: but nowe they run in the weeke dayes, and leaue their buſines, & begger themſelues: they goe to other townes alſo, which is a pitie that it is ſuffered: it is a great diſorder.

Zelot.

He is ſaid to be bleſſed, which hath his delight in the lawe of the Lorde, & which doth meditate therin day & night. I confeſſe that y^e ſabboth day is the chiefe time to ſeeke for knowledge. But that man which hath ſo little louelove to the word, that he cannot beſtow one houre in a weeke for to heare it, and yet can beſtowe diuers houres in vayne talking, drinking and gaming, is but a dull ſcholler vponupon the Sabboth day: I warrant yee, if a man looke well vntounto him, he ſhall finde it harde to iudge whether he or the ſeat he ſat on, carried away moſt: & for leauing their buſines ſo far as they may conueniently, woulde yee hauehave them forget the precept of our ſauiour chriſt, firſt ſeeke the kingdom of God, & his righteouſnes, & then al theſe things ſhalbe caſt vpō p. 44you: The ſoule with you is leſſe to bee cared for, thē y^e body: ye prefer this life before eternall life: & as for this, that mē come for to be beggers by following ſermōs, y^t they ſell their kine, & that they are faine to be gathered for in the Church: ye hauehave a bowget full of theſe lies, and yee need but euen a mill for to grinde them. They are taught by the word preached, to follow their labours painfully, and the bleſſing of God is vponupon mens labours, which doe ſeeke him and the knowledge of his woorde: and although it ſometime doth hinder them one houre, yet it ſaueth them and gayneth them many houres, which they were wont to beſtowe vainely.