A Reply to a Relation, Part 3 (9 of 9)

A Reply to a Relation · Part 3 (9 of 9)

p. 374L. p. 327. The Romanists dare not beleeve, but as the Roman Church beleeves. And the Roman Church at this day doth not beleeve the Scripture, and the Creeds in the sense, in the which the ancient Primitive Church received them.

P Dare they not? How then say you there is possibility of salvation in the Roman Church for any, when it condemneth and accurseth saving faith and justification thereby, with other saving truths? For if the Papists dare not beleeve, but as their Church beleeves, then they are bound to good behaviour, they dare not beleeve to their salvation. And if they dare not beleeve to p. 375their salvation, then they cannot be saved. And if they cannot be saved, what possibility of salvation for them, living and dying in that faith? And here, Why do you no… say in the sense of the Scriptures themselves, and not of the Primitive Church? But you doe not like the Scripture sense, except the Church interpret it. You allow not Scriptures to speake for, or testifie for themselves. You are the same man still. And as we sayd before, you doe wisely in that, to stoppe the mouth of Scripture, as Ahab did Michaiahs, for it never speaks good of you, but evil alwayes.

L. p. 232. I will acknowledge every fundamentall point of faith, as proveable out of the Canon, as we account it, as if the Apochryphall were added unto it.

P. As if Apocryphalls were any divine proofe at all of the fundamentall points of faith in Scripture, or ought any way in that respect to be so much as named with the Scripture. Apocryphalls (saith Ierome) may be read for instruction of manners, but not for confirmation of faith, as before.

L. p. 336. I have lived, and shall (God-willing) dye in that faith of Christ, as it was professed in the ancient Primitive Church and as it is professed in the present Church of England.

P. As you handle the matter, ther's a vast difference between the faith of Christ professed in the ancient Primitive Church, and that which is now professed in the present Church of England. For the Ancient Primitive Church, taken properly and strictly, as somtime in your Booke (as before) you put it, was that wherein the Apostles lived. Now will ye be tryed by the Ancient Primitive Church of the Apostles held and professed? What say you my Lord, for your faith in this case? Will you put your faith and Religion to the tryall of the most intire and upright J…ry, the Twelve Apostles? Certainly if you decline this tryall, 'tis a shrewd suspicion that the faith of yours, wherein you are so resolute to live and dye, is not right. Therfore for shame of the world, you must at least professe or pretend, that you wilbe tryed by the the Faith and Religion which the Apostles and the true Church of God in their time (as being the most Pure, Prime, Ancient Primitive Church) held and professed. First then: That Primitive Church neither held nor professed, nor practised any Hierarchicall government 1of Prelates or Bishops, but have c…ndemned it in their writings, the Scriptures of the New Testament. And yet I▪ are say, you resolve to live and dye Primate of Canterbury, and Metropolitan of all England. p. 3762Secondly, The Apostles, and the ancient Primitive Church in their Age and time, had no Altars, but onelyonly the Lord Iesus Christ, Heb. 13.10. (as it is formerly proved) but you and your Church of England both set up and worship Altars, and …each the people both by your Books and practise to do so too, and force Ministers to erect Altars, or force them out of their Churches. And this Faith and Religion also I dare say you resolve to live and dye in. Thirdly, The Apostles, and the ancici…nt 3Primiti…e Church in their time celebrated and sanctified every Lords day in holy duties onelyonly, and in preaching as well in the **Cor. 16 1. Ioh. …0.19, 26. Act. 20.…. Rev 1.10.Acts 20Rev 1:10afternoon, as in the f…enoon, never forbidding, but still exhorting to preach in season and out of season, giving no liberty to vaine and profane sports and Pastimes either upon that day, or any other day, but admonishing Christians to abhore them as ‡‡Gal. 5.21. … Pet. 4.3. Ro. 13.13, 14.Gal 5:21Rom 13:13Rom 13:14Heathenish: and is this the faith and practise of the present Church of England at this day, wherein you resolve to live and dye? Fourthly, The Apostles and ancient Primitive Church in their dayes taught, held, and professed all 4chose excellent saving Doctrines of Election, Predestination, Redemption of the Elect, their Effectuall vocation and conversation by Gods saving and Omnipotent Grace, their assurance of Salvation by Faith, and their certaine perseverance in Grace unto Glory; and none of these Doctrines were forbid to Ministers to be preached; but they were commanded of God to declare the whole Councel of God to his people. Is this your faith and practise of the Church of England, wherein you resolve to live and dye? Fiftly, The Apostles and the ancient Primitive Church in their dayes, taught, professed, and 5practised that Discipline, which was according to Christ, forbidding all w…ll-worship, and imposition of humane Ordinances, as snares upon mens Consciences, whereby that Christian liberty is overthrowne, which Christ purchased for his people with his own blood. Is this the Faith, which you and the present Church of England professeth and practiseth, and wherein you resolve to live and dye? Sixtly, The 6Apostles and the ancient Primitive Church in their time condemned the forbidding of Marriage and of Meates, as a Doctrine of Devils, taught by seducing sp…ri…s, and a departing from the faith of Christ Is this that faith and Religion, which you and the present Church of England hold, professe, and practise, and wherein you resolve to live and dye? O ye Prelates, O thou Church of England, blush, and be ashamed of that Faith, Profession and Practise of yours, so … contrary to that Faith which the holy Apostles taught, and that pure and Primitive Church in their times imbraced, and professed: and be not so desperately bent, as being so p. 377clearly convinced of these thy foule practises, to professe and vow notwithstanding to live and dye in them: least herein, your condition prove (as it must doe) infinitly more desperate and damnable, then that of the Jesuites themselves, whose knowledge (by your own confession) of their wicked and damnable F…ours, with their obstinate persisting in them, and res…sting the truth, yea even the Holy Ghosts Testimony therein, leaves them, as without excuse, so without all hope of salvation, as to whom nothing remaines (as the Apostle upon the like occasion, saith) but **H…b. …. H…. 6.4, 5, … ▪ 8.a fearefull expectation of Iudgement, and of fiery indignation, which shall devour the Adversaries.

L. p. 338. Yea, but he saith againe, That I acknowledge there is but one Saving Faith, and that the Lady might be saved in the Roman Faith, which was all the Iesuite tooke upon his soule. Why but i… this be all, I will confesse it againe. The first, that there is but one Faith, I confesse with St. Paul, Eph. 4. And the other, That the Lady might be saved in the Roman faith or Church I confesse with that Charity which St. Paul teacheth me, namely, to leave all men, especially the weaker sex and sort, which hold the foundation, to stand or fall to their own Master, Rom. 14.4. And this is no mistaken Charity.

P. This you confesse, that as there is but one saving faith, so this faith is in the Church of Rome, The saving faith not in the Church of Romeas in and by which the Lady may be saved. And of this one faith with the Church of Rome, you and your Church of England are, if you hope to be saved with Rome by her saving faith. This is the All and summe of your Confession. Now we have clearly proved before, that the faith of the Church of Rome, is not that one saving faith of Gods Saints and Elect, which the Scripture every where speaks of. For first Romes faith is in its kind and nature (and that by their own confession) a dead faith: but the saving faith is a ‡‡Gal. 2▪20▪Gal 2:20living faith. 1Secondly, they confesse, that with their faith they may goe to hell, as they say of their Fid…les Fornicarii, Adulteri, &c. therfore 2Romes faith is no saving faith: for the saving faith is so called, because it effectually, perfectly and certainly saveth all those that have it, as Christ saith, Joh. 5.24. Thirdly, The Romish …aith, is a doubting, wavering, uncertaine faith, or ra…her opinion… and wan 3hope, as the Councel of Trent defineth, accu…sing certain…y of beleeving: whereas the saving faith is a certain… assurance, and cleare ‡‡Heb. 11▪ … ▪Heb 11evidence, a plerophoria as Heb 10.22. Rom. 4.21.… a full assurance or perswasi…n in the truth of beleeving, though not in fullnesse of degrees of perfection in all, and at all times, the operation p. 378of it being many times hindered by corruptions, and infirmities of the flesh, and manifold temptations. Fourthly, 4Romes faith, is, and may be without hope and charity: but true saving faith is never without hope and charity; for it is the sure **Heb 11.1.Heb 11:1foundation of things hoped for, and it ‡‡Gal 6.Gal 6worketh by Love. Fifty, The Roman faith is not the Iustifying faith, for the ‡‡Sess. 6.Councel of Trent saith, Faith justifieth not, till Hope and Charity come to it, 5and then all 3 together, and that as inherent Graces, and works in us, do justifie: whereas true saving faith is therfore called the Iustifying faith, because it is that onelyonly Grace, whereby as an Instrument applying Christ and his righteousnesse, and not as works in us, the beleeving sinner is justified, Rom. 3.28. so as though this saving justifying faith be never without hope and charity, no more then fire is without light and heat: yet hope and charity have no hand at all with faith in justification; so as not even faith it selfe as it is a Grace inherent, with hope and charity, doth justifie, but onelyonly as it is considered as a hand or instrument applying Christ, as before. But the Roman Faith (as the Councel of Trent confesseth) justifieth not as an instrument or hand applying Christ, whereby his Righteousnesse is of God imputed to the beleever (which Imputation the Councel in plain termes accurseth) but onelyonly as a Grace and worke inherent 6with hope and charity. Sixtly, saving faith is not onelyonly a justifying faith, whereby we stand righteous in Gods sight, having Christs Righteousnesse imputed: but also a sanctifying faith, as Act. 26.18. called therfore a holy Faith, Jude 20. as wherby a man is regenerate, borne againe, made a member of Christ, and partaker of his Spirit, and lives and dyes in holinesse: but the Roman Faith doth not sanctifie; for they confesse, that wicked, ungodly, and profane persons may have it▪ and goe to hell with it, as before. Lastly, saving and justifying faith is a spirituall 7worke and gift of Grace, wrought in the soule by the spirit of God, and it is his sole worke, without the concurrence or mans Will, which is not free, untill Grace hath given it both life and freedome: but the Roman Faith is confessed by them in the Councel of Trent, not to be a meere worke of Grace, nor at all of sanctifying and saving Grace, in the first act of beleeving: but after the Will of man is but a little stirred and moved by a certaine Grace, which they call the first Grace, which they confesse not to be the saving and sanctifying Grace, then thereupon they have the merit of Congruity to receive the second Grace, whereby hope and charity come to be added to faith. And this is p. 379the expresse Doctrine of Trent. The Conclusion then is, That neither the Lady, nor any Papist living and dying in the Roman Faith, nor your selfe, nor any in the Church of England, that hold and professe no other Faith, then the Roman Faith, can possibly be saved, living and dying in that Faith and though you tell us againe with great confidence, as a most certaine Truth, that it is no mistaken Charity to grant a … of salvation to a Papist living and dying in the Roman Faith: yet we have so discovered this your Charity before, as I Hope your Charity wilbe no more so mistaken. OnelyOnly here I must tell you withall, that as you either wilfully, or most ignorantly and … rather, mistake that one saving faith of the Apostle: so doe you also that Charity, which you say he teacheth you. Doth the Apostle teach you such a Charity, as teacheth you to beleeve and affirme that, which is contrary to the cleare Truth of the Scripture? is it your Charity to attribute a saving faith to the Church of Rome, which without all Charity accurseth the onelyonly true faith, and the truly faithfull of Iesus Christ, which professe that onelyonly saving faith? Whereas you must know, that Charity, which the Apostle there teacheth (Rom. 14.4. alledged by you) is in judgeing Charitably of your Brethren, in the use of things indifferent▪ For there the Apostle speaks of eating, or not eating: of observing a day, or not observing: whereupon he inferreth, Who art thou, that judgest anothers servant. To his own Master he standeth or falleth; so as in such cases Christians must judge Charitably, and not rashly censure others, that do not as themselves doe, in things simply indifferent. This is then the Charity, which there the Apostle teacheth. But have you learned this Charity of the Apostle? You tell us, This Charity the Apostle teacheth me. The Apostle teacheth you true Charity: but it doth not thereupon follow, that you have learned that Charity of the Apostle. Doe you deale so with your Brethren in the use of things indifferent, as not to judge them this way, or that way▪ in the using, or not using of them? Doe you leave them to their own Master Christ ▪ to stand or fall? Nay do you not cause them necessarily to fall by the stumbling blocks of your Ceremonies, which you say, are things indifferent, and yet you impose such a necessity upon the observation of them, as they altogether cease to be indifferent, and become a y…ake of bondage to the People of God? And if they be so strong that they will not thus fall down to your Ceremonies, no more then the 3 Children would to the Kings Image: what then? What p. 380Charity use you then towards them? Doe you leave them to their own Master to stand or fall? Not such thing. But you take upon you to be ther Master and Lord, and to be their Judge, and to Judge them, while sitting in your High Commission Chaire, you convent them, censure them, as by Susp…nding, Silencing, Depriving, Degrading, Dispossessing, or Fining, Imprisoning, undoing of their wives and children, and without all hope of remedy, or mercy from you, till they shall acknowledge the Justice, yea and perhaps the Clemencie of your Court in dealling so mercifully with them. This, This is that Charity which you have learned, and which you dayly put in practise, so as in this kind, never any was more zealously and fervently Charitable, then your selfe. But this Charity you never learned of the Apostles, nor did he▪ or Christ, or any of the Apostles ever teach you any such Charity. No sure, This wisdome, This Charity of yours (as Iames speakes) cometh not from above, but is Earthly, sensuall▪ and Divelih. If you have no other Charity but this, the Lord deliver us from your Charity. And so I leave you to your mistaken Charity. OnelyOnly for Conclusion hereof: Immediately before you tell us, you will dye, as you live in that faith professed in the Church of Engdand. Here you say, Rome holds the same faith: Ergo as you live so you will dye in the Roman faith ▪ And secondly, Ergo The Faith of the Church of England and of Rome is one and the same Faith: as before you tell us they are one and the same Church: and at after (as pag. 3…7) they are of one and the same Religion, not different. Thus you have made a fine Confusion: and this you meane to make your finall Conclusion. Such is your Faith: such your Religion: such your Charity: all mistaken. The foulest, and fearefullest mistaken, that ever any man was overtaken with.

L. p. 339. The truth is you doe hold new Devises of your own, which the Primitive Church was never acquainted with. And some of those so farre from being conformable, as that they are **Halting and ….little lesse, then contradictory to Scripture.

P. And is it not as true, that in holding new devises, which the the Primitive Church (of which we spake but now) was never acquainted with, you may shake hands with Rome and her Jesuites? who may therfore retort upon you that of the Poet,

Parcius ista viris tamen objicienda memento,

Novimus et qui te:

Be sparing such things to us to object:

Who know the like do on your selfe reflect.

p. 781And we have shewed before, how both Romes new devises, and yours (for they are all one and the same) are not onelyonly (as you still mince the matter) little lesse then contradictory to Scripture: but doe directly overthrow the cleare and evident truth …, and that also even in fundamentalls. And what say you to Romes new-old devise of worshiping Images (to instance in no more, though I might in many, yea in all Romes Popish Doctrines, as Popish; as before) is it but little lesse then contradictory to Scripture? Doth not the Scripture say, Thou shalt not worship any graven Image? And what saith Rome, I pray you? Or if you, or she, for modesty sake will not tell us; or if she dare not say in plain and expresse termes, and in form of a Precept, Thou shalt worship Images: yet aske her whorish practises, and her pretty devises, wherewith she allures her children to the adoration of them, and that even to dotage, as by promising them pre…ty lakons, and new-nothings, as pardon of sins for so many yeares for praying so many Avies and Pater nosters before such a …, or Image: is not this Equipollent to a Commandement? yea their very setting up, and ad…ring these their ga… Gods in their Churches, the place of worship, is it not an inviting and silent whispering in the Peoples eares, worship and fall down before these sacred Images and Reliques, giving them the same honour, that you give to the Saints, which they represent, as divine honour to the Crosse, and Crucifix, as they teach, as we have shewed. Is not here a full and home contradiction to the Scripture? **Contradiction what it is.For Contradiction is not onelyonly in an expresse Negative, but in an impi… Negation, when such and such a Doctrine doth necessarily imply a contradiction to the Scripture. And in this kind all the Doctrines of Popery (whereof we have given sundry Instances before) are direct contradictions to the truth of the Scriptures.

L. p. 340. It doth not follow, since the Councel of Trent hath added a new Creed, that this Roman faith is now the Catholick▪ Halting againe.For it hath added extravea, things without the foundation, disputable, if not false Conclusions to the Faith. So that now a man may beleeve the whole and intire Catholicke faith, even as St. Athanasi… requires, and yet justy refuse for Dr…sse, a great part of that, which is now the Roman faith.

P. Is it so then? Hath the Councel of Trent added a new Creed, and so Roman faith is not now the Catholicke, but to be refused as drosse, extraveous, false, without the foundation? How then doth this agree with that faith, which even now you confessed; that the Church of Rome had and hath the saving Faith, that One p. 382Faith of the Apostles, as whereby a Papist, living and dying in that Faith, may be saved? And if Rome hath added a new Creed, how holds she still that one Faith? Prelates Contradiction.And do not you beleeve Romes new Creed? For what is this Creed? That the Roman faith is now the Catholicke. How is this then a new Creed, That Romes faith is now the Catholicke? For (say you) it hath added extravious things, without the foundation, Disputable, if not false conclusions to the Faith. Is this all? Par…urient M…ntes. I expected here some monstrous evidence against the Church of Rome, when you began to tell us she had brought forth a new Creed. But this your Rumor will not be taken for a Creed, without some sounder proofe, then we see you yet bring, for all your faire florish. For what's this new Creed? Alas, a poore Cento patcht up of certaine extravious things. What? without the Foundation. Good enough yet, so long as n… Canon against the Foundation, or a mine of Powder to blow up the foundation. OnelyOnly without the foundation? Alas, that's not worth the talking of. If the new Creed be of things onelyonly without the foundation, you may leave them out of your Creed, as things not necessary to be beleeved, or at least, not to be beleeved of all Christians, alike; as you teach us before, and Bellarmine too, that All things de fide are not necessary to be beleeved of all men, or are not necessary to salvation. And perhaps Bellarmine means Romes new Creed you speak of, which though the Councel of Trent hath made it to be de fide, yet it is not necessary for every man to beleeve it, or not absolutely necessary for every mans salvation. But what more? 2. Disputable. As you sayd before; Disputed Qu…stions. Disputed, and Disputable still: Ergo what can you make o… such a Creed at the worst, but some disputable matter, not yet sufficiently discussed, though determined in the Councel of Trent, and sit perhaps to be reserved to be determined upon some clearer demonstrations in your next Generall Councel, whose Decrees then, true or false, shall be received as your Creed. And (as we said before) things Disputable may yet prove to be truth, being throughly scanned: and thus Romes ne… Creed may prove as Credible, as you call it disputable. But any more yet? yes: if not false conclusions. If? Which receiving a faire interpretation from your mouth, may be all one, as if you had said, N…t false Conclusions, because as yet Disputable. And while things are but disputable, and in dispute, they are as yet no false Conclusions. For the Premisses of the Argument must goe before the Conclusion. But yet your Conclusion is somwhat …. For you say, A man may beleeve the whole and intire Catholick p. 383faith, and yet justly refuse for drosse a great part of that, which is now the Roman faith. What? Drosse? And, Ius…ly refu…e as Drosse? What, are you that man, that may doe thus▪ And will you doe thus? Nay, you for your part have bound your hands from taking any thing as drosse, which Rome hath put in her new Creed. For those things, even the worst of them, you say are disputable. Therfore not yet concluded and determined for Drosse. And if you shall now take those things for drosse, which with you are but disputable, how can you justly doe it: For if mettall be in dispute among the r…siners, it is not presently doomed for drosse, being yet in their best judgements but disputable: the Test must first try it, whether it be drosse or not. And so it is the Test ▪ or the Testaments of Christ, that must try all false mettals, shine they never so gold like, and discover and condemne them for Drosse. And surely my Lord your single judgement (through never so singular) will never be taken by any, as solid enough to preponderate the Decrees of a whole Councel, as Trent, to conclude those Decrees to be Drosse, both after you have called them but disputable, and after Rome hath Decreed them for her new Creed. But you goe no further yet, then Posse: a man may take them, &c. And you may in time come actually to take those disputables for no Drosse, but good Currant Coine, not onelyonly passing for Currant in Rome, but also in England, as holding the same Creed, and being one Church. So as a little more Allay then Ordininary shall not disable the currantnesse of it. And what is there in all Romes new Creed of Trent, which you say is of things Disputable, which is any worse drosse, but rather as good silver, as those her Altars and o…her superstitions, which you have borrowed of her? Which were they but soundly disputed, would prove drosse indeed, as formerly also is proved.

Againe, here you confine the whole and intire Catholicke faith to Athanasius his Creed You might have at least taken in the other two Creeds to boot: and yet not all of them together will make up the adequate Rule of the whole and intire Catholicke faith. For the Catholicke faiths full latitude, whole and intire, cannot be measured, but by the line and Rule of Scri… ture alone, The onelyonly **R…m. 6▪1… ▪túpos did…kus as the Apostle ca…ls … the Matrix or Mold, wherein faith must be cast …) to receive its perfect forme▪ which is not, cann… be whole, and intire, but as it is according to the whole and … Scripture conformed And you adde:

p. 384Popish faith infi…ility, by the Prelates confession.L. p. 3…2. No man can properly be said to beleeve the whole Creed, that beleeves not the whole sense, as well as the letter of it, and as intirely.

P. Now you told us before, that Rome hath lost the sense of the Creed, at least in some things: whence I conclude, upon your own words, that Rome holds not, beleeves not the whole Creed, and consequently she hath lost and overthrown the whole Creed. For overthrowing the sense of any one Articl…, she overthrows the whole; as before. And in a word, the Church of Rome overthrows the whole Creed, in overthrowing the first word of it, Credo, I beleeve: which gives denomination, life, and beeing to the whole. And a maine flaw in the foundation, overthrows the whole building. And that Rome doth this, is cleare: for, as she hath made a new Creed all of drosse: so she hath coyned a new sense to the Credo of the old Creed. For she doth not beleeve the Creed with a saving, justifying, lively faith (as is shewed before) but hath cancelled and accursed it in her Councel of Trent. And so though she hold Credo Deum, beleeving that there is a God, as even the Heathen doe (for quae gens tam barbara, Ci… de Natu…a Deorum.&c. what nation so barbarous, that beleeves not there is a God; as the heathen Roman Orator sayd) yet she doth not hold any other Creed of God. For she holds not simply and absolutely (no more then you) Credo Deo, beleeving God speaking in the Scripture, but dependently upon the Authority and Interpretation of the Church. And least of all doth she hold Credo in Deum, which is the justifying and saving Faith, as Augustine, Bernard, and others of the more Ancients distinguish and define.Augu…t. Bernard. For as Bernard saith, Credere in Deum, est credendo diligere, credendo in eum ire, & ei uniri, &c. To beleeve in God is by beleeving to love God, by beleeving to goe into him, and to be united unto him. Now this faith Romes is not: for (as is shewed before out o… the Councel of Trent) their faith is without love ▪ and doth not goe into God, but with which going to hell, they are separate from God for evermore. So as the Article or Decree of Trent having destroyed the old Credo in Deum, she must have some new Credo, or els none at all. And you doe ibid. rightly interpret the word V…g…ès, which Athanasius expresseth the …ustif…i…g faith of the Creed by, namely sound and intire: so as if it be not a sound and intire faith, such as the Scripture commends, and is proper to all true Beleevers, the Elect, a … is to no purpose. And a little after you say:

… This is true Divinity that he which hopes for salvation, … whole Creed, and in the right sense too (if he be able to … it.)

p. 385P. Till this If, hem'd in with a Parenthesis, I was halfe in hope you had assented to my former speech, That the Church of Rome in not holding the right sense of the Creed, overthr…ws the wh…le. But your Parenthesis so hedgeth in your silly ignorant, that it is a sanctuary to secure their ignorance from R…m…s damnation; so as though they have no hope of salvation, yet they are in no feare of Romes damnation, as being not able to beleeve the whole Creed, because not able to comprehend the right sense of it within the narrow circumference of their shallow brainpan. But behold closse by another hedge:

L. p. 343. To hold the Creed inviolate, is not (as I take it… the holding of the true sense, but not to offer violence, or a forced se…se and meaning upon the Creed, which every man doth not, that yet beleeves it not a true sense. For not to beleeve the true sense of the Creed, is one thing: but 'tis quite another, to force a wrong sense upon it.

P. Thus still the Lady, and all silly ignorant Papists, if ever by their blindnesse they shall happen to stumble upon salvation, trusting to the meere simplicity of their ignorance, living and dying in the Roman faith, not knowing what it is, nor able to beleeve any one Article of the Creed in a right sense: may thank you, for thus incouraging them upon this hope of possibility of an impossible salvation. And the case stands thus: The Church of Rome in her Councel of Trent hath put a forced sense upon the Creed, and so hath made a violation of the faith: This forced sense Romes Clergie in the Catechisme of Trent forceth and presseth upon their blind people to beleeve: Now tell me, What difference is there between the forcing of a false sense upon the Creed, which the Councel of Trent hath done, and all Romes Clergy conveys the false sense (if any at all) as …ank poyson into the minds of their Blindlings, so farre as they are capable of any errour (being capable of nothing els) and the voluntary receiving and imbracing of that false sense, and that not onelyonly in beleeving it, but so obstinately adhereing to it, as they will not, they dare not (as you befo…e confesse beleeve otherwise, though the truth be tendered unto him: which is the generall condition of all ignorant Papists. And being in this case, what way now can you find out for them, which may bring these misbeleevers; or rather no-beleever, to salvation. What hope can you give them, that have no faith? And what faith can they have, that cannot bel…eve, that cannot, may not, dare not, have no meanes, to comprehend the r…ght sence of the Creed, but the forced sense that Rome puts upon it and them?

p. 386L. p. 349. As for Origen, I thinke, he was the first founder of Purgatory

P. This here of Purgatory bordering so neere your last Passage of your misbeleeving Papists, gives me occasion to imagine how necessary it were for you to be the first Inventer of some other place in hell, like unto that Limbus Infantum, where provision may be made to intertaine your silly Infant-Papists, that are not able to give any one reason of that hope of salvation, which you force upon them, and which you have been the first inventer of. That as Popish Infants dying without Baptisme, goe to their Limbus, where they are sensible neither of joy, nor paine: so your silly ignorants, having no sense of any true faith and knowledge of God, or of themselves here, when they dye, they may goe to such a like place or Limbus, where they may neither injoy blisse, nor suffer paine. But a word of Purgatory in the mean time. For the first Founder of it, in my poore reading I find the Heathen **Plato in Timaeo.Plato. For he tells us, as of 3 sorts of men in this world, some very good, and some starke nought, and some indifferent: so he fits 3 places for these 3 sorts after this life: 1▪ Elysium, the Elysian fields, meaning thereby a place of pleasure, as, Paradise, into which went those immediately, who were very good: 2. Hell, whither the very worst went: 3. a middle place, or lake, into which the moderate or indifferent men were cast after death, and after a certaine time there, as a yeare, or two, or more, as they were lesse or more good or bad, being well purged, were cast forth againe, Whence they went into the Elysian fields. And Virgil also, a heathen Roman Poet, did afterwards take and borrow this from Plato, expressing it in his Aeneads. And so from these two might Origen borrow his Purgatory, and the Church of Rome from them all three, might out of this lake of Plato, or Pluto if you will, borrow so much Bitumen, or Pitchy matter, and so casting into it the stone Asbestos, which being once kindled, is not quenched againe, it became the hot-burning lake of Purgatory, as namely for the purging of Indifferent men, such as are neither hot nor cold: neither Beleevers, nor Infidels: neither Christians, nor Heathen: neither good fish, nor flesh: Indifferent between Papists and Protestants: halfe for Christ, and halfe or rather All for Belial: Reconcilers of light and darknesse: of Truth and Errour: or (as the Papists say) such as had onelyonly veniall sinnes, not throughly purged with holy-water in this life, and therfore must be purged with fire, what water could not doe, untill after a Venal Masse chanted for their soules, they should be delivered, p. 387and so passe the Pikes into the El…sian Fields. And this is both Authority and Antiquity sufficient for your Purgatory, though you bestow much sweat in this hot Stove, and in pursuing this Ignis fatuus, yet haply it may purge you… Reputation of that venial opinion, which men have of you.

L. p. 375. Rome, but with all other particular Churches, and no more then other Patriarchall Churches, was and is radix existentiae, the root of the Churches existence And, The uni…ersall Nature and Beeing of the Church, hath no actuall …xistence in all her particulars. And this I say for her existence onelyonly, not the purity or forme of her existence, which is not here considered.

P. These words confirm what you have said before of your Catholicke Church, consisting of particular Patriarchall, Prelaticall, or Hierarchicall Churches throughout the world, all of them visible, and conspicuous; in these it existeth as in the root: this existence may be without the consideration of purity, as a Church may be a true Church of Christ, and yet not be holy. Having then answered these things before, it is sufficient for this. And this still confirmes what I have said of Christs true and onelyonly holy Catholick Church, which is a matter of faith in the Creed. This true and onelyonly holy Catholick Militant Church of Christ hath for its prime Radix, or Root Christ, in whom it existetth, subsisteth, and hath its beeing. Then it is diffused into all the members of Christs mysticall body, all the Elect, over the world, or in any corner thereof, to the end of the world, and hath no existence at all in the Hierarchy, or Prelacie, or in any one visible Church, or particular place, or Countrey, but it lyes hid, as the sappe in the root, in all the Persons of the Elect onelyonly, and the substance and **Col. 3.Col 3life thereof is hid with Christ in God, the ‡‡Rom. 11.Rom 11Prime root. And the existence of this Catholicke Church cannot be considered possibly, without Purity, and Holinesse ▪ for it exists no where, but in purity and holynesse: so as every person is holy, in whom it existeth: And so much for this.

L. p. 370, 371. But if she be not the Catholicke, nor the root of the Catholicke Church, yet Apostolick I hope she is▪ Indeed Apostolicke she is, as being the sea of one, and he a Prime Apostle. But then not Apostolicke, as the Church is called in the Creed, from the Apostles, no nor the onelyonly Apostolicke. Visible, I may not deny, God hath hitherto preserved her, but for a better end doubtlesse then they turne it to.

The Church of Rome indeed Apostolicke? Why so? As being the sea of one, and he a prime Apostle That was Peter you mean sure. He was a Prime Apostle, though not the Prime. … somtimes p. 388Iames is placed before him, Gal. 2.9. And Paul was no whit inferiour to those 3. Iames, Peter, and Iohn, who were Pillars, and seemed to be somwhat. And in this respect may you not possibly meane Paul, rather then Peter: for Paul (we are sure) was in Rome, and there preached, though in prison. But we read no where in Scripture, that Peter was at Rome, much lesse that he sate there Bishop of Rome, and so fixed his Chaire there. If therfore you mean Peter, and pitch upon him (though the Popes are faine to use somtimes two strings to their bow, and to challenge their succession both from Peter and Paul, and some stories speake both of Peter and Paul, as Bishops there.) I say if you pitch upon Peter, how doe you prove that Peter was at Rome: and if at Rome, whether Bishop there: and if a Bishop there, why consequently must that Sea be still Apostolicke,O'uk e'n te Kathédra ea proedria, all' e'n to…s e'rgois. Herodian. lib. 1. seeing non sedes, sed fides, not the seat, but the Faith makes Apostolicke. But there be many reasons and arguments from Scripture, some that Peter was not at Rome, others, and those more demonstrative, that he was never Bishop of Rome, as Pontifex, or Prelate, such a Bishop as you meane. I have seen a Booke Printed in English by Authority, which proveth that Peter was never at Rome. And this he doth by computing and comparing the times and other Circumstances in the Acts, and Pauls Epistles with those Histories, which say he was there, and Bishop there, which stories neither agree with the Scripture, nor with themselves, nor with other Histories profane. And if Peter were at Rome, how cometh it, that Paul being there, doth not in all his Epistles make mention of him? Was Peter either so obscure, as Paul should not know him to be at Rome? Or so proud of his new Prelacie, as not to acknowledge his fellow Apostle, now a Prisoner? Or what was it, that Paul doth not so much as mention him? Because Peter, being for the Circumcision,Allotrioepiskopein. 1. Pet. 4.15.1 Pet 4:15 should a'llotrtoepiskopoin, take Pauls Bishoprick over his head, who was for the Uncircumcision, whereof Rome was the Metopolis? Or had Peter with Demas forsaken Paul; imbracing this present world in a Lordly Bishopricke? But let it be given you, that Peter was at Rome, and Lord Bishop of Rome: what then? Ergo is the Church of Rome indeed Apostolicke? Did Peter leave his Apostolick Bishopricke by an Intayle …o all his successors in Rome? Are …hey Apostolicke, when they are become Apostates from the faith? Alas, alas: your words utter your spirit, but no truth OnelyOnly one thing you deliver, as doubtlesse, where you say, Visible I may not deny, God p. 789hath hitherto preserved her, but for a better end doubtlesse, then they turne it to: Visible: Ergo the Pope is Peters successor: Ergo the sea of Rome is indeed Apostolicke: Ergo a true Church of Christ. For visible it is. Revel. 17.Rev 17It is indeed that visible and conspicuous City on its seven tops or hils (whereon it stood in Iohns time and now that Woman, that sits and rides mounted on her seven-headed, ten-horned Beast. Visible with a witnesse, otherwise all her pompe would loose the Grace, if it wanted spectators, as her Scarlet, and Purple, and Pearle, and Precious stones, metà polles phantasías, with her great pompe. Visible no question, and so visible, and sensible too, as otherwise we could not know her to be the Great Whore. Thus she was shewed first to Iohn in a visible representation, by which we also come to know her to be the same Woman, when we doe but looke upon her. Well, visible we all grant her to be. What more? God hath hitherto preserved her. That's true too. For even the wickedest men upon earth, and the most Tyrannicall states, that they are for a time, yea and a long time too preserved in life, and doe prosper also they owe it to God. But to what end are the wicked preserved? Their finall **2 Pet. 2.9. Phil 3.19.2 Pet 2:9Phil 3:19end is destruction, to which they are r…served, as Peter speaks, and Paul too. Cain and his Posterity (whose Family was a type of Antichrists succession) continued and were preserved, and grew great, for almost two thousand yeares, till at last the Flood swept them all away. But of Rome you have better hopes, doubtlesse.Gen. 6.Gen 6 For you say God hath preserved her for a better end doubtlesse, then they have turned it to. Now doubtlesse I will shew you what that better is, for which God hath hitherto preserved that Woman, which hath been made drunke with the blood of the Saints. ‡‡2 Thes 2.8▪2 Thess 2:8Whom (saith the Apostle) the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightnesse of his coming And Rev. 14.8. Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great City, because she made all Nations drinke of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And Rev. 18. read the whole Chap…er of Romes ruine. Yea and all that partake with Rome, shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God, &c. Rev. 14 9▪ 10. What the Scripture hath spoken of Romes fall, would fill a Volume. And is not this the best end, that God is pleased to preserve her for, when he shalbe glorified in executing his justice and judgements upon her for all her abominations, and for all the blood of his Saints which she hath shed? And in her confusion God will magnifie and exalt the Honour, and Kingdome of Iesus Christ, which tha… Woman and her Crew had oppressed, and the Saints shall tryumph over her. Yea, p. 390saith the Lord, **Rev. 18.20.Rev 18:20Rejoyce over her thou heaven, and the holy Apostles and Prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And Chap. 19.1, 2. I heard (saith Iohn) a great voyce of much people in heaven (that is, in the true Church of Christ) saying, Alleluja, salvation, and Glory, and Honour, and Power unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his Iudgements, for he hath judged the great Whore, which did corrupt the Earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. Behold here for what a glorious end, the Lord hath preserved that Great Whore. But it seemeth you do not mean to make one of that Company, either to sing Alleluja, or to say Amen, when the Lord shalbe magnified in that day. For you hope doubtlesse for better, then all this. And so I am perswaded you have the like hopes, that God hath preserved and prospered you thus long for no lesse, then to be after scores of yeares in a flourishing estate here, Canonized for a Saint in heaven, for all the blood of the Saints, both of their soules and bodies, which you have shed. Wherein you may have as much hope for your selfe, as for old Mother Rome, and all one. But I leave you to the Righteous Judge, who knows how and when to glorify himselfe, as well upon the wicked his enemies, by destruction, as in his own Saints and servants by deliverance. ‡‡Rev. 14.12.Rev 14:12Here is the Patience of the Saints.

L. p. 375. Truly I say the same thing with him. Neither may a Protestant, that is resolved in Conscience that the profession of the true faith is in the Church of England goe to the Romish Church, there and in that manner to serve and worship God.

P. Thus you jumpe with the Jesuite in this, that, as he saith, 'Tis not lawfull for one affected, as the Lady was, that is, for one that is resolved of the truth of the Roman Church, to goe to the Church of England, there and in that manner to serve and worship God: so, &c. Why, will you let the Jesuite run away with it so? Do you not know that the Law of England injoynes all Papists under penalty to come to your Church? Now doth the Law injoyne that, which in it selfe is unlawfull for a man to doe, that is otherwise resolved in Conscience? Nor is this Law repeald, though (as before) it be a …leep, and grown justly in the sheath. Now reconcile these two. And what say you then in the Case of Conscience touching your Ceremonies? There be some Ceremonies ▪ which the Law prescribes to be observed in your Church. Now a poore soule is not in Conscience perswaded, that he ought to conforme to such Ceremonies of necessity imposed, as being ag…inst Christian …erty, and Christs Prerogative royall, in being p. 193sole King over his Church, ruling in the Conscience of his People. Well you say, in this case such a man is bound against his Conscience to observe such Ceremonies? And if he be not bound, why doe you so severely and terribly punish him, for not daring to doe that, which is against his Conscience? Wheras the Papist, otherwise resolved in Conscience, you hold not bound to come to your English Church. And so of your Protestant, for going to the Romish Church, being against his Conscience. Will you not allow to the Conscience of the first as good Law, as you doe to the two last? Againe, you allow a greater and larger liberty of Conscience to your Protestant to go to the Romish Church, then the Jesuite doth to his Romanist, to come to your English Church. For he allows not his Romanist to come to your English Church, that is resolved in Conscience of the truth of the Roman Church, that it is a true Church, and that the truth is there: whereas you doe not allow your Protestant to goe to the Romish Church, that is onelyonly resolved in Conscience, that the profession of the truth is in the Church of England Now there is great difference between the truth, and the profession of the truth. So as he that is resoled in Conscience, that the truth is onelyonly professed in the Church of England, and is not withall resolved, that the truth it selfe is in the Church of England, may with more liberty goe to the Romish Church, then the Romanist may come to yours, that is resolved of the truth of and in the Romish Church. So as herein also the Jesuite hath the advantage of you. Againe, if the Jesuite did meane, by the truth of the Roman Church the profession of the truth in that Church, he therein comes no whit behind you. For the Church of Rome as well makes a false profession of the truth, as your Prelaticall Church of England doth. Againe, you make it no great matter of difference in this case between your Protestant and the Romanist, whither this or that goe to each others Church, so his Conscience put not a barre. As you tell us a little after, That the Church of Rome, and the Protestants, do not set up a different Religion ▪ Of which in its place. And here also you put no difference, but that the Romanist doth as well serve and worship God, after his Roman manner in his Idolatrous Masse, as your Protestant doth after your English manner. And perhaps the difference will not be found so great between you, but that you will well enough agree, when you have cast up your reckoning. But now, what if one of your simple Protestants, be not resolved in Conscience of the profession of the truth in the Church of England, more then of that in the Church of Rome? Is p. 392it not then lawfull for him to goe to the Romish Masse? With …ou it seems so, so his Conscience hinder him not. And what Conscience hath your ignorant Protestant to hinder him in this case? Nay, I will say more: What knowing Protestant have you at this day in the present Church of England, since the publishing of your Declaration before the 39▪ Articles (which makes some of the principall of them to beare a double and contrary sense) that is, or can be resolved in his Conscience, that either the true faith, or so much as the Profession of the true faith, is in the Church of England? For those Articles, which containe the Doctrine of your Church, you confesse to be ambiguous, and doubtfull, and doe not resolve either way, but leave your Church in suspense: how then can any Protestant of the Church of England be resolved in Conscience, that the Profession of the true faith is in the Church of England, when neither your selfe seems to be resolved, or at least you doe not resolve your Church concerning your Articles what to beleeve? Which being so, may you not fairely hence conclude, that it is lawfull for any Protestant of the Church of Engdaud to goe to the Romish Church, there and in that manner to serve and worship God untill he shalbe resolved in his Conscience, that the profession of the true faith is in the Church of England: which resolution is not like to be, till your Lordship hath resolved them, which is the true and orthodox sense of your Articles, and that by a publicke ed…ct athenticke, and every way equall to the former; as in the case of Generall Councels, when the errours of one must be obeyed, till another, equall to that, shall reverse it. As before. But in the meane time, unlesse you make the more hast with your Edict for Resolution, your whole Church of England is now at liberty to goe to Masse and so to turne Romanist, as having nothing to restrain them (were there but Masses enough to intertaine them, as no doubt there be Priests enough for the purpose, had they but Churches (so long as their Conscience is not resolved of the profession of the true faith in the Church of England. And so the Broad Gates are set upon for the Consummation of your so much wished and plotted Reconcliation with the Church of Rome. And you adde:

L. p 376. Nor do the Church of Rome, and the Protestants set u… a different Religion (f…r th… Christian Religion is the same to both) but they differ in the same Religion: and the difference is in certaine gr…ss… corruptions, to the very indangering of salvation, which each side s…y…s the other is guilty of.

P. By Protestants here, 'tis plain enough you mean those of p. 393the Church of England, not those of the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas, I am sure of it. For they utterly renounce the Romish Religion and Faith as Antichristian, which you avow for Christian, the same with yours. But they differ (say you) in the same Religion. How? They do not set up a different Religion, and yet they differ in the same Religion? I understand not this Babylonish language. But wherein then doe they differ in the same, and undiffering Religion? In some certaine grosse corruptions, say you. But in some, not in all grosse corruptions, which are indifferent, and common to you both. And what grosse corruptions are common to both, those shall not be put in the reckoning of corruptions at all, each covering other with the mantle of Charity. Yea such as you both agree in, are the very substance of your Religion. And the whole substance of the Romish, yea of all Christian Religion (saith Bellarmine) is the Masse. This then must be That same undiffering Christian Religion, which you both set up. And herein how much doe you dister? Have you not both your Altars, the main substance, on the service whereof all the rest attend, as your Priests, Sacrifice, Images, Crucifixes, Adorations, Organs, curious musicke, and many other devises for your pompous service, your Liturgie differing more in the language, then in the matter and forme? But you will say you differ in Transustantiation. Yet you are willing to have a reall Presence confessed▪ and professed with you, as is noted before. But you say, the difference is in certaine grosse corruptions indangering salvation. On which side? Each side (say you) charges other. I have heard two butter women scold, and each layd to other grievous things, and the one said, Thou playdst the whore, and the other sayd, Thou playdst the whore. Which of these (trow you) was the honester Woman? She haply that had lesse playd the whore, then the other, which perhaps was not for want of will, but opportunity. You and Rome charge each other with grosse corruptions, which yet, are one and the same in both. Doth not thus the shame of both the more appeare? Your grosse corruptions on both sides can agree well enough, if you can be quiet. Yea and that to the indangering of Salvation too. For have you not (to be silent in the rest) both your Altars, which are alone sufficient to sacrifice upon all your faith and salvation, and so to leave you neither faith nor salvation in Christ, as whom also you sacrifice thereon, together with your faith and salvation? For we shewed before, that your Altars doe overthrow and deny Iesus Christ the onelyonly Altar of true beleevers ▪ If then you both doe agree in the grossest p. 394corruptions, as those whereby your salvation is not onelyonly indangered, but destroyed, which is the maine of your Religion wherin you differ not: what need there be any oddes between you for the rest? Both sides complain of each other, both have their corruptions, and grosse ones too, such as overthrow salvation. Then let your conscious ingenuity confesse to each other, and your conscientious Charity **Det veniam ille facile, cui ven…a opus. Senec.pardon each other. And so let the world be troubled no more with your Differences, but be good friends, and agree as sisters.

L. p. ibid. It may appeare by all the former Discourses, to any Indifferent Reader, that Religion, as it is professed in the Church of England, is nearest of any Church now in Beeing to the Primitive Church. Therfore not a Religion known to be false. And thus I both doe, and can prove, were not the deafnesse of the Aspe upon the eares of seduced Christians in all humane and divided Parties whatsoever.

P. You doe wisely to put it to the judgement of the indifferent Reader, who unlesse he be a most indifferent man between your Church of England, and that of Rome, and so undifferent from you both in judgement and affection, to whom this which you say shall appeare to be true. For no such thing can appeare to any Reader, that is not so affected, as to beleeve your bare word, so soon as ever it sounds in his eare, or whose eyes doe not looke through the false glasse of your Perspective. Indeed you have proved to all men sufficiently both by this your Discourse, and by your Practises, that you and Rome do not set up a different Religion. We all beleeve it. And consequently we beleeve, that herein you come full as neare to the Primitive Church as Rome doth, alwayes excepted Romes lineall Pedegree from Peter; and you know you are a Degree once removed. And how neare you both come to the Primitive Church of the Apostles especially, the primest and purest, we have before shewed sufficiently. And if you come nearest, who (I pray you) are furthest off? Surely the most pious, the most religious, the most zealous, the most painfull and faithfull preachers of the Gospel, the greatest contemners of the world, the most humble and meeke, the most patient in suffering persecution for the truth, the most pure and precise in their life and conversation, the most exact conformist to the onelyonly Rule of Faith and true Religion, the word of God; such as are not ambitious, covetous, carnall, and worldly minded, envious, malicious, cruel, haters and persecuters of Gods word, of his Ministers and people: Such, such (I say) must be furthest off from the Doctrine and practise p. 395of the Apostles, and of the most pure and Primitive Church in their time, if you the Prelates and Churches of England and Rome come the nearest unto them.

L. p. 377. But is there no superstition in Adoration of Images? None, in Invocation of Saints? Se Pag. 27….None in Adoration of the Sacrament?

P. Yes: and grosse Heathenish Idolatry too, yea and infidelity to boote; though you would mince it never so small into a matter of superstition onelyonly. And may not I say to you: But is there no superstition, yea no Idol…try, in your Adoration of Altars? (yea and worse then that of the Papis…s: for they worship their God, you the Altar.) None, in your Adoration of the Name IESVS? None, in bowing before your Crucifixes over your Altars? No inducement at least to Idolatry in your goodly Images erected in your Churches? No … smell of Popish superstition and Idolatry in y…ur Adorations in the presence of such Im…ge…? The **Sinag…g… ….Iewes would not …o much as stoop to tye the latchet of their shooe in the place, where an Image was, least their bowing might seem to be to the Image. And who knoweth, with what mind you do your humble and lowly D…votion before such sacred Reliques? And (to summe up all together) is there no superstion, yea no Idolatry in all that will-worship of yours, and of the Church of Rome, attended with so many Rites and Ceremonies of mans invention? For what is all Will-worship, but Idolatry, yea and the highest kind of Idolatry? As Vincentius saith: ‡‡V…ncent. … Haer.What are strange Gods, but strange errours, for that Hereticks reverence their Opinions no lesse, then the Gentiles doe their Gods? And ‡‡Aug. De …. C. 83.Augustine saith: It is the vilest and … kind of Idolatry, when m…n worship their own fancies, observing that for a Religion, which their erronious and swelling minds imagine. Thus we see (§§Dr Bilst…n. as a learned Divine of the Church of England, and of great Eminencie said) that a corrupt and vicious Religion (such as Popery is, and such as you have made yours of the Church of England, Will worship … of ….not a different Religion▪ … an inward and ghostly worship of Idols, which (saith he) Prince ought not to … at, or tolerate, seeing no man, and therfore no Prince can … two Masters. For (saith he) if God be truth, they which presume to worship him with lyes (as in contrary faith must needs come to passe) serve now not God, but the Devil, a lyer himselfe, and the fa…her of …, whose service no Christian Prince may so much as … ▪ so he▪ Thus our Divines of the Church of England in former ages shall … up as witnesses to condemn you in the day of Judgement, who teach and maintain things contrary to that truth, which they delivered.

p. 396L. p. 378. What not prove any superstition, any errour at Rome, but by pride, and that intolerable. Truly I would to God A.C. saw my heart, and all the pride that lodgeth in it.

P. This you speake to A.C. as to a Jesuite, or some Frier, or some Priest. All is one: such a one being a Ghostly Father, you may safely sub sigillo Conf…ssionis, or sub stola, under the seale of Confession, or under the Friers frocke, under the Rose (as we say) open the windows of your Brest, and let him look in, and view all the Roomes, and corners of your heart, to see what pride hath taken up her lodging there; and so the world shalbe never a whi… the wiser for it. But you need not to wish any such thing. The pride of your heart cannot so easily be hid, as that you need wish, with Momus, if there were a glasse window in your Brest, for men to look in and see it, much lesse a subtile prying Jesuite. Alas, though the glaring light of it blind your own eyes, that you cannot see it your selfe: yet any other, that is but purblind, may through the Glasse, or spectacles of this your Book see the monstrous multiformious shape of it, had they not seen it before expressed in the Capitall Characters of your most insolent, and all daring practises. And that you yet see it not, there is not a more infallible argument or signe of a more monstrous proud heart, which is ever selfe blinded But look to it. What saith **Ier. 17.10.11.Jer 17:10Jer 17:11Ieremie? The heart is deceitfull above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, and try the reynes, even to give every man according to his wayes, and according to the fruit of his doing…s

L. p. 379. I hope God hath given the Lady mercy.

P. Namely, that same Lady, who formerly had been either brought unto, or confirmed in that Romish Religion, by that which you resolved her in, namely, That she might be saved, living and dying in the Roman faith and Religion; wherein it seems, as she lived, so she dyed. Now truly my Lord, If God did give her mercy, it is little God hamercy to you. But what ground have you for this your hope? Even as much, as for giving her hope, that she might be saved, living and dying in the Roman faith. Is it so easie trow you to send such a Lady to heaven securely wrapped in the Mantle-lap of her silly ignorance? But what if she be now in hell? Are not you guilty of her damnation, by muzzling her in her blind ignorance, as wherein onelyonly you taught her to place the hope of her salvation? But you told her of some danger But you did not possesse her with such a feare of the danger (as both there was cause, and you should have done) p. 397as you puffed her up with the hope of safety, and that in the onelyonly confidence of her silly ignorance; so as her vain hope overcame just feare. And if now by this meanes she be in hell (as you set her in the ready high way) look you to it; Paries cum proximus ard…t, Tunc tua res …gitur: if she by your leading be fallen into the pit, what is like to befall you the leader when, the blind, leading the blind, both fall into the pit? But if God hath had mercy on her, it was not since her death, by delivering her out of Purgatory, i… she dyed a Papist: but before her death, by delivering her from her Popery, worse then any Purgatory, causing her to renounce and repent of that, and to beleeve in his mercy, and Christs merit onelyonly for salv…tion, without which faith of Christ …here is no hope of mercy And we shewed before, that this faith of Christ is not the Roman faith, but quite opposit unto it.

L. p. …88. But 'tis time to end, especially for me, that have so many things of weight lying upon me, and disabling me from these Polem…ck …isccurses; besides the burthen of sixty five yeares compleat, which draw on a pace to the period set by the Prophet David, Psal. …0. and to the Time, that I must goe, and give God and Christ an account of the Talent committed to my Charge; in which God, for Christ Iesus sake, be mercifull to me, who knows, that however in many weaknesses, yet I have with a faithfull and single heart (bound to … free Grace for it) laboured the meeting the blessed meeting of Truth and Peace in his Church, and which God in his own good time, will (I hope) effect. To him be all Honour and Prayse for ever. Amen.

P. How fitly doth this your Conclusion suit with, and succeed that, which was last mentioned, as matter for your more serious and sad meditation, and which I cannot but tremble …! And well weighing also the words of this your Conclusion with all that you have written in this your Booke, and with all your Practises in your life (all so uniforme, and sutable) I am surprized with great astonishment. The reasons hereof will further appeare in the more particular animadversions upon your words asunder. And because we use to take most speciall notice of a mans last words: give me l…ave to take a full and particular view of yours here, as being, though not the last words of a dying man, yet the finall Conclusion of this your Booke, which so soon as I have read over, it passeth away tanquam Fabula as the Prophet speaks of a mans life **…al. 90▪9.as a ta… th… is told. And as we looke, tha… however you have dealt in your Book, yet in the close of all you should deale candidly, ingeniously, and cordially, and not dubble with God, and the world, and p. 398with your own Conscience: yet for my part, as the Spirit of sincerity and truth (without flattery, or respect of Persons, where the truth is wronged) hath rnd doth run through all the veines of this my Reply to your Relation: so I shall by Gods grace close all with the same spirit, not sparing you to the last, where still you give just cause. And the truth cannot better, nor more seasonably be spoken home, then as to a dying man, who though he have been never so notorious an hypocrite ▪ and desperate man in the Course of his life, yet when he lyes upon his death-bed, and utters some words, which seem to savour of some sensiblenesse of his Condition, then, if ever, there may be some hope of working upon him (as when the yron is hot) by putting home unto him, and laying before him his former life, that so at the last, though late (as the Thiefe on the Crosse) he may through Gods mercy be brought to repentance, and so to salvation. Although examples of such penitents indeed and in truth, be very rare. For as one observeth, **August.One Thiefe was saved on the Crosse, that none should d…spaire: and but one, that none should presume. …or the saying too ordinarily proves true, Qualis vita, finis it…: As a man lives, so he dyes. And Paenitentia sera, rarò vera: Late Repentance is seldome true. And the Prophet gives the reason of it: ‡‡Ier. 13.23.Jer 13:23Can the Ethiopian change his hew or skin? Or the Leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good: that are accustomed to doe evil. For as one …aith, Consuetudo peccandi, tollit sensum pecca…i: Custome of sinning, takes away the sense of sin And where there is no… sense of sin, there can be no Repentance for sin. And therfore commonly, when a man that hath lived wickedly, and hath been used to lying and dissembling all his life, comes to …ay on his death bed, or at the last gaspe, Lord have mercy upon me: however we may not judge him, leaving him to his Judge, yet this is no sufficient argument to perswade us, that this is … Repentance. For lightly when such men, promising and vowing, it God restore them, to reforme their life, do recover: they ‡‡2 Pet 2 22.2 Pet 2:22…turn …s the Scripture speaks) with the dog to his vomit, and with … that is washed, to her wallowing in the mire. According to that … or Apologie:

… Daemon, Monachus tunc esse volebat:

… Daemon: nec tamen est Monachus.

Which … thus:

… was …, the De…il a Monke would be:

… was well: the …evil a Monke was he.

But I must not doe you wrong in applying of these things to p. 193you: or that I have any hope of doing good upon you even now at last, in the close of all: seeing you give me no incouragement of hope at all this way. For in all this your Closse, not a word expressing the least sorrow for your most enormious iniquites, but on the contrary you justifie them, and glory in them. Wherein you shew the pride of your heart to be out of measure desperate, and not to be named with the pride of that Pharisee. For though he gloryed in himselfe, yet he gloryed not in his evil, but in those things that were in themselves good and commendable, and for which he gave God thanks, as the Author of them: but here I find a proud Prelate vaunting in his impiety, and in all his wicked practises, the ayme whereof is, to reconcile the Church of England, and that of the Whore of Babylon together, and all under a faire pretence of the meeting of Truth and Peace. And not content herwith, he must needs make God, and his free Grace the Author of all this Mystery of Iniquity, and deep hypocrisie, which here he veileth under the name of a single heart.

But stay before I begin, is there no hope of doing good upon you? It is not impossible, but that the greatnesse of your zeale for this Peace, hath been so strong in you, as whereby you have been perswaded, whatsoever you either have done, or yet can further doe, for the effecting thereof (be it by throwing down of Gods word, casting out his Ministers, chasing away G…ds people, howting out all power of holynesse out of the Land, and so removing all such impediments, as you thought stood in your way, and that per …as, aut nefas, by right or wrong all wa…, and is well, yea very well done. Haply the lovely and amiable name of an Imaginary Truth, and deceitfull Peace, and counter…et C…urch: and the strength of your beliefe, that Rome was yet a true Church, and so true, that England and she were and are one and the same Church, no doubt of that, did so wholly possesse you, that …o bring England and Rome together againe, you thought even … of the Truth it selfe to be true piety, and the … of the peace of all to be an establishment of unity, and confusion of light with darknesse to a perfect Reconciliation. Yet this I must say wi…hall, as Christ said, **M…t. 23.If the light that is in thee be darknesse, how great is that darknesse! And if in all that you have done for the advancing of this your maine Project, you have not wilfully … against the …ight of your Conscience, and so gone on in that … course with a high hand: certainly it seems to me a … highest admiration, and so much the more, … have long lived in the midst of such a cleare … ▪ p. 400as no Age since the Apostles hath seen a greater; though now of late it hath suffered (and that since your elevation especially) no smal Eclipse. But if my words shall have no better effect with you, then onelyonly to convince you, and discover your damnable Hypocrisie, jam liberaui animam meam, I have now freed mine own soule. And now to your words.

'Tis time for me (say you) to end. And I say (as I sayd before) it had been (in my judgement) much better for you, if you had never begun this worke. But 'tis well, that at length (as Iob speaks) **Iob. 16.3.Job 16:3vaine words have an end. Though it be not for this reason, that you make an end. But you alledge those many things of weight lying upon you. What, what weighty things hath this mighty Apostolicall Man lying upon him? Such as the Apostle had, ‡‡2 Cor. 11.28.2 Cor 11:28The care of all the Churches? That you pretend too, while you would so faine have Altars up in all the Churches in England. But the Apostle addes there: Who is weake, and I not weake? Who is offended and I burn not? Can you say so? You can say, Who is offended at my Cerimonies, and I burn not with zeale against that man, till I have consumed? But why do I name the Apostle? Your many things of weight lying upon your shoulders: are State-matters, high and deep State-mysteries, the burthen of a vast Iland, heavier then Etna it selfe. What, such, so weighty, so many things lye upon your weake shoulders? Enough to presse you down as low as hell. What doe not you professe to be a Priest? a Clergy man? And is not the Charge of that one Profession, being rightly executed (had you ever felt the weight of it) a burthen heavy enough to breake your backe, (which as one said) the shoulders of Angels would tremble under? And the Apostle speaking of a Ministers office, saith, ‡‡Onus Aetnâ …. Proverbu…m.No man that warreth, intangleth himselfe with the affaires of this life, that he may please him, §§2 T…m. 2 4.who hath chosen him to be a souldier. But it seemeth you are none of those, whom Christ hath chosen to be his souldier, except he chose you for such a purpose, as he did but one man of the twelve. For you are one that warreth, and as Iudas, the Captain of the rout against Christ in his Ministers and members. But you intangle your selfe with the affaires of this life. And by this means you have the more power to warre against Christs Kingdome. So as Ieromes speech may take place here: Negotia…orem Clericum, & ex inope divitem, ex ignobile gloriosum, tanquam quandam pestem …uge: Hier…n. ad ….A negotiating or Polypragmaticall Clerke, or Clergy man, and who of poore bcomes rich, of base vain-glorious, fly from him, as from a kind of Plague. p. 401But who hath compelled you to take the burthen of so many and great things upon you? What did the Pillars of the State shake and tremble, and threaten a fall, and therupon … in, and put under your shoulder to stay it up? As the Pope at the Councel of Lateran dreamed, that the Lateran shooke and was ready to fall, but that Dominicus came in the nicke, and upheld it; wherupon the next day the Pope made Domi…i…us the Father of his Order. And so well may you prove a supporter of the Popes Lateran, but how a supporter of Civil States, I know not, nor meddle with, but negatively, shewing a disparity and incongruity between your Profession, and that, sa…ing that you are rather a Civilian, then a Divine, as having proceeded Doctor, not in Divinity, but of the Civil Law. But suppose you had been compell'd to it. **Io… 6.15▪John 6:15Christ would not be made King, when they would have forced him. For ‡‡Ioh. 18.36.John 18:36his Kingdome was not of this world. But yours is. And your shoulders are able to beare two such intolerable burthens, as never any man in the world could beare one of them well, and as he should doe Well, I will say no more but this, ‡‡Luk 12.48▪Luke 12:48To whom much is committed, of him shall much be required.

But you adde also another reason, why 'tis time for you to end: as bearing now the burthen of 65. yeares compleat. A great age, and yet I suppose you feele it not to be a burthen. If you doe, then as the Poet saith,

§§Ho…at▪Solve senescentem maturè sanus equum, ne

Peccet ad erremum ridendus, & ilia ducat.

And you say, it draws on apace to the Period set by the Ppophet David, Psal 90. You mistake the Pen-man: for it was Moses. But to let that passe, as a common mistake: and as a Law, which it seems you have imposed your selfe, and observed throughout your Book, not to cite any Scripture without perverting of it. Doth your Lordship hope to reach the period of three-score and ten? Alas, should you live out but one Lustrum of five yea…es more, what would become of (I say not, the Civil state, but) the poore Church of God yet in England? But our comfort is, The Lord Iesus Christ is both against you, and above you. In the meane time were it not safer for you, to think of a shorter period of your life least promising to yourselfe, and sleeping in the security of so many yeares more, you should be suddainly taken napping, as that rich man in the Gospell, to whom it was said, ††Luk 12 20▪Luke 12:20Thou foole this night shall they take away … soule from thee. And besides, you are ‡̶‡̶Psal. 73.1….Ps 73:1…et in a slippery place, … p. 402you may fall into suddain destruction, as in a moment; as the Prophet saith. So as there is lesse confidence to be put in that, then in your Age. And therfore bethinke your selfe how suddain the time may be, that you must goe, and give account (as you say) to God and Christ of the Talent committed to your Charge, which you cannot so easily answere before that Judge, as you could doe in the Starre-Chamber. And remember what you said to the Jesuite (pag. 316.) Our reckoning wilbe heavier, if we thus mislead on either side, then theirs that follow us? But I see I must looke to my selfe, for you are secure? And are not you full out as secure, as the Jesuite? But in that, you pray that God for Christs sake would be mercifull to yo u. But is that enough to wipe off all old scores, to say, God be mercifull to me? When the Course of a mans life hath been a very Enmity and Rebellion against Christ: when he hath spent the Talent of his Strength and Wit, Meanes, and Friends to the dishonour of God, in oppressing Christs word, persecuting his Ministers and People, profaning and polluting the service of God with humane Ordinances, and will-worship, forcing mens Consciences to conformity, and the like: doe you think to salve all with a Lord have mercy upon me? Nay, you seem to be in good earnest, when you say, and pray, if God for Christs sake would be mercifull unto you. But wherein, or for what, should God for Christs sake be mercifull unto you? Which of your sins, your scarlet sins, your Episcopall sins, doe you confesse to God, and (because publick) unto the world, that truly repenting of them, God for Christs sake may be mercifull to you? Doe you confesse and repent of your persecuting of Gods Ministers and People, for their Conscience sake? Nay you are so farre from this, that you say, God forbid (not, God forgive) that I should perswade to persecution in any kind, or practise it in the least. So as you in all this persecute none; no, not you; nor yet perswade others to it; nor disswade, neither. And yet you still continue a persecutor, as accounting it not a sin, but a vertue, not vicious, but rather meritorious, to root out the Puritans. And what say you to your more then Barbarous shedding of the Innocent Blood of Gods servants, and Christs witnesses, mangling their Bodies, and breaking them in pieces, causelesly separating Man and Wife, to satisfie your wicked malice, and so to murther them with your intollerable oppressions? Doe you crave mercy of God for this? Or is your guilty Conscience still seared, and stupified? Is your heart still hardened? Do you need no mercy for such cruell shedding of Innocent blood? David p. 403**Psalm. 51.Ps 51confessed his blood-shed, and found mercy. But you continue your cruelty still in cold blood. What? Do you think, that because Gods people are as sheep appointed for the slaughter, and you the chiefe Butcher, therfore you sin not, in devouring and spoyling so many good Ministers with their Families and Flocks? O stupid Conscience! O desperate soule! And so still desperately you goe on, in justifying your selfe in all that you have done, and calling God to be witnesse too: saying, Who knows, that however in many weaknesses, yet I have with a faithfull and single heart (‡‡Blaspemy of the Prelate against Gods … Grace, as if that had been the Author of all his wicked Pract… ses. bound to his free Grace for it) laboured the meeting, the blessed meeting of Truth and Peace in his Church. O shamelesse hypocrisie! O blasphemous wretch! Doth God know? Is God the Author of all thy impiety, iniquity, cruelty▪ craft, hypocrisie and dissimulation, of thy faithlesse and false heart, in thy plotting to bring thy false Truth, and thy turbulent Peace with the Whore of Babylon, that notorious enemy of Christ and his true Spouse his Church, to a meeting, to a blessed, yea to a cursed meeting?

O GOD, thou searcher of all hearts, behold this blaspemous Wretch, calling thee for a witnesse of his notorious and perfidious false heart, and ascribing it to thy free Grace, as the moving and helping cause of all his impious practises. O Lord, Be not mercifull to any wicked Transgressor, that dare thus desperately take thy sacred Name in vaine, and make thy Grace, the father of his gracelesse actions Seest thou not, ô thou All-seeing, and All-revenging GOD, how this man hath been a prime Instrument of oppressing thy Word? of forbidding it to be preached (therein denying and destroying the Doctrine of thy free Grace, which here he hypocritically nameth) of persecuting thy faithfull Ministers and People even to root them out? Of proclaming Libertinisme in the publicke profanation of thy Sabbaths, and violation of thy holy Commandement? Of setting up Idolatrous Altars, to the denying of the Lord Iesus Christ, our onelyonly Altar, whereon our Persons and sacrifices offered up unto thee, are accepted of Thee? Of bringing into thy worship sundry supers…tious Idolatrous Rites and Ceremonies, in Adoration of Altars, Names, praying towards the East? Of setting up Images and Crucifixes those Idols in the publick place of Worship? Of putting down preaching of thy holy Word upon thy holy Sabbaths especially in the Afternoones, when there is most need, and people should be aptest, and best at leasure generally to heare? Of inlarging and making heavier the yoake of Bondage and Tyranny upon the necks of thy People, in increasing of more Ceremonies, to the intollerable vexation of thy Children, and p. 404incrochment and usurpation upon Christs Kingdome, and royall soverainty, as sole King over his Church, and Lord of the Consciences of his people? Yea **Psal. 10.Ps 10surely thou hast▪ seen all these things; for thou beholdest mischiefe and spight, even to requite it with thy hand: and therfore the poore committeth himselfe unto thee: For thou art the helper of the fatherlesse. Therfore, arise ô Lord; ô God, Lift up thine hand, forget not the humble. Wherfore doth the wicked contemn thee, ô God: He hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it. But Lord, break thou the arme of the wicked, and the evil man; seek out his wickednesse, till thou find none. For wherfore should the Heathen say, where is their God?Psal. 79.10.Ps 79:10 O let our God be known among the Heathen in our fight, by the revenging of the blood of th… servants, which is shed And let the sighing of the Prisoners come before thee: according to the greateesse of thy power preserve thou those, that are appointed to dye. And render unto our Neighbours sevenfold into their bosome their reproach, wherewith they have reproched thee ô Lord. So we thy People and Sheep of thy pastture will give thee thanks for ever: we will shew forth thy praise to all Generations.

Now, to return to you againe and so ridde my hands of you. All that you have done, is (you say) for the blessed meeting of Truth and Peace. This is the upshot of all, Englands Reconciliation with Rome. So as when these two are reconciled (as I doubt they are already, while you hold us in expectation, untill you expect but time (the Contract being already made) for Confirmation) when this is come to passe, then wilbe a blessed meeting, a mercy meeting For it is a meeting of Truth and Peace. Indeed when Truth and Peace, in the true sense, do meet, 'tis a blessed meeting indeed. But what Truth? What Peace? The Truth is, When this Peace is once Consummate, that it comes to be openly avowed and professed (for which we must not looke for a Generall Councel, that's but a flourish, and a Blind, while you are undermining the Bulwarke of our Truth, and the beauty of our Peace) then (as when Herod and Pilate were made friends) you shall see (which is already in execution) open persecution of all true Piety, and Purity, and perturbation of all true Peace, and that not onelyonly in the Churches of God, but in Civil states and Kingdomes, when for the maintenance of this Peace, Princes shalbe set against their People, and People are forced to stand for the liberty of their Consciences against Prelaticall Antichristian Tyranny. For what is Romes Truth, but Trechery? And what is Romes Peace, but Perturbation, perplexity, p. 405confusion, Babylon, even to all those, that confederate with her? Ye… your hope is, that God in … good time … meeting. God will certainly effect, and bring to … Councel and Purpose, in his good time for the good of all his People, and the confusion of all his enemies, and theirs. And one of his Councels and Purposes he hath declared to be (which shall certainly, and I trust very shortly come to passe, and in due …) the destruction of the Whore of Babylon, together withall …, that are linkt in a league with her, and that under a pretence …f the blessed meeting of your Truth and Peace. And then **Rev 19.1, 2 ve…s. ….Rev 19:1Rev 19:2sha…b… … that great voy…a of much People in heaven (to wit, in the Chu…ches of Christ) saying, Alleluja: salvation, and Glory, and … Power unto the Lord our God; for true and righteous are his …udgements, for he hath judged the Great W…ore, which did corrup… the Eearth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. Amen. ALLELUJA.

Pántote Dóxa Theo. June, 26. 1639.

FINIS.

End of the text · Henry Burton, A Reply to a Relation (1640)