Acts and Monuments Volume 2 Part 2, Book 11 · Account 18 · Examination 4
¶The fourth examination of M. Philpot in the Archdeacons house of London, the sayd monethmonth of October, before the Bishops of London, Bath, Worcester, and Glocester.
BOner.
Mayster Philpot, it hath pleased my Lordes to take paines here to day,An other examination of Iohn Philpot, before the Byshops. to dine with my poore archdeacon, and in the diner time it chaunced vsus to hauehave communication of you, & you were pitied here of many that knew you in the new Colledge in Oxforde: and I also doe pitty your case, because you seeme vntounto me by the talke I hadde with you the other night, to be learned, & therefore now I hauehave sent for you to come before them, that it might not be sayd hereafter, that I had so many learned Bishops at my house, and yet would not vouchsafe them to talk with you, and at my request (I thanke them) they are content so to do. Now therfore vtter your mind freely, & you shal with all fauour be satisfied. I am sory to see you lye in so euill a case as you doe, and would fayne you should do better, as you may, if you list.
Bath.
My Lordes here hauehave not sent for you to fawn vpō you, but for charities sake to exhorte you to come into the right catholicke way of the church.
Worc.
Before he beginneth to speake,And why do not you Bishops your selues pray also for them▪ that are … of the … The pray… of Iohn Philpot before the Byshop… ▪ B. Boner agaynst prayer. it is best that he call to God for grace, and to praye that it might please God to open his hart, that he may conceiue the truth.
Phil.
With that I fell downe vponupon my knees before them, and made my prayer on this maner.
Almighty God, which art the geuer of all wisedome, and vnderstanding, I beseech thee of thine infinite goodnes and mercye in Iesus Christ, to geue me most vile sinner in thy sight, the spirite of wisedome to speake and make answere in thy cause, that it may be to the contentation of the hearers before whom I stand & also to my better vnderstanding, if I be deceiued in any thing.
Boner.
Nay, my Lorde of Worcester, you did not well to exhort him to make any prayer. For this is the thing they hauehave a singular pride in, that they can oftē make their vain prayers in the which they glory much. For in this poynt they are much like to certayne errant heretickes,B. Boner here seemeth … skilfull … his law … in Church storye…. of whom Pliny maketh mention, that didde dayly sing antelucanos Hymnos: Prayse vntounto God before the dawning of the day.
Phil.
My Lord, God make me & all you here present suche hereticks as those were yt soong those morning himnes: for they were right christians, with whom the tyrantes of the world were offendeh for their well doing.
Bath.
Proceede to that he hath to saye. He hath prayed I can not tell for what.
Boner.
Say on, M. Philpot: my Lordes will gladly heare you.
Phil.
I hauehave, my Lordes, bene this tweluemoneth and an halfe in Prison without any iust cause, that I knowe,M. Philpot complayneth of his wrongfull imprisonment. and my liuing taken from me without any lawfull order, and now I am brought (contrary to righte, from myne owne Territory and Ordinary, into another mans iurisdiction, I know not why. Wherfore, if your Lordships cā burden me with any euill done, I stand here before you to purge me of the same. And if no suche thing may bee iustly layd to my charge, I desire to be released of this wrongful trouble.
Boner.
There is none here goeth about to trouble you, but to do you good, if we can. For I promise you, ye were sent hither to mee without my knowledge. Therefore speake your conscience without any feare.
Phil.
My Lord, I hauehave learned to aunswere in matters of Religion, In Ecclesia legitimè vocatus: In the Congregation being thereto lawfully called: M. Philpot called in no sufficient assembly and therefore not bound to aunswere▪ whereby to put himself in danger.but nowe I am not lawfullye called, neither is here a iust congregation where I oughte to answere.
Boner.
In deede this man tolde mee the last time I spake with him, that he was a Lawyer, and woulde not vtter his conscience in matters of fayth, vnlesse it were in the hearing of the people, where hee mighte speake to vayne glory.
Phil.
My Lord, I sayd not I was a Lawyer, neither do I arrogate to my selfe that name although I was once a nouice in ye same, where I learned something for mine owne defence, whē I am called in iudgement to answere to any cause, & whereby I hauehave bene taught, not to put my selfe further in daūger then I neede, and so farre am I a Lawyer, and no further.
Bath.
If you will not answere to my Lordes request, you seme to be a *Wilfull because … wil not put himselfe wilfully into the Wolues mouth.wilfull man in your opinion.
Phil.
My Lorde of London is not mine Ordinarye before whom I am bound to answere in this behalfe, as maister D. Cole (which is a Lawyer) can well tell you by ye lawe. And I hauehave not offended my Lord of Londō wherfore he should call me.
Boner.
Yes, I hauehave to laye to your charge, that you hauehave offended in my dioces by speaking agaynst the blessed sacrament of the aultar, and therefore I may call you & proceed agaynst you to punish you by the law.
Phil.
I hauehave not offended in your Dioces. For that whiche I spake of the Sacrament was in Paules Churche in the Conuocation house,This … was for … the … with … in … Parla… B. Bo… not … Ordinary to Iohn Philpot. which (as I vnderstand) is a peculiar iurisdiction belonging to the Deane of Paules, and therefore is counted of your Lordships Dioces, but not in your Dioces.
Boner.
Is not Paules Churche in my Dioces? Well I wote, it costeth me a good deale of money by the yeare, the leading thereof.
Phil.
That may be, & yet be exempted from your lordships iurisdiction. And albeit I had so offended in your Dioces, yet I ought by the law, to be sent to mine Ordinarye, if I require it, & not to bee punished by you that are not mine Ordinary. And already (as I hauehave told you) I hauehave bene conuented of mine Ordinary for this cause, which you goe about to enquire of me.
Boner.
How say you, M. D. Cole, may not I proceed against him by the law, for that he hath done in my dioces?
Cole.
Me thinketh M. Philpot needeth not to stande so muche with your Lordship in that point as he doth, sithen you seeke not to hinder him, but to further him: therfore I thinke it best that he go to the matter that is layde agaynst him of the Conuocation, and make to longer delay.
Phil.
I would willingly shew my mind of the matter, but I am sure it will be layd agaynst me to my preiudice whē I come to iudgement.
Cole.
Why, then you may speake by protestation.
Phil.
Note how … men … for ….But what shall my protestation auayle in a cause of heresy (as you call it) if I speake otherwise then you wyll hauehave me, since that which I spake in the conuocatiō house, being a place priuiledged, can not now helpe me?
Boner.
But M. Doct. Cole, may I not proceede agaynst him for that offence he hath done in my dioces?
Cole.
You may call him before you, my Lord, if he be foūd in your dioces?
Phil.
M. Philpot agayne appealeth frō …. Boner to … Ordinary.But I hauehave by force bene brought out of mine owne Dioces to my Lordes, and required to be iudged of myne owne Ordinary: and therefore I know mayster Doctour will not say of his knowledge, that your Lordship oughte to proceed agaynst me. And here Mayster Doctour would say nothing.
Worcest.
Doe you not thinke to finde before my Lord here as good equity in your cause, as before your owne Ordinary?
Phil.
I canne not blame my Lorde of Londons equitye, with whom (I thanke his Lordship) I hauehave found more gentlenes since I came, then of mine owne Ordinary (I speak it for no flattery) this twelue monethmonth and this halfe before, who neuer woulde call me to aunswere, as his Lordship hath done now twise. Sed nemo prohibetur vti iure suo: No man is … to … own …ight due … him.but I ought not to bee forestalled of my right, and therefore I challenge the same for diuers other considerations.
Boner.
Nowe you can not saye hereafter, but that ye hauehave bene gently cōmuned withal of my Lordes here, & yet you be wilfull & obstinate in your error, and in your owne opinions, & will not shewe any cause why you will not come into the vnity of the Church with vsus.
Phil.
My Lordes, in that I doe not declare my minde according to your expectation, is (as I hauehave sayd) because I can not speak without present daunger of my life. But rather then you shoulde report me by this, either ostinate or selfe willed without any iust ground, wherupon I stand: I will open vntounto you somewhat of my minde, or rather ye whole, desiring your lordships which seme to be pillers of the Church of Englande, to satisfye me in the same: and I will referre all other causes in the which I dissēt from you vntounto one or two articles, or rather to one, which includeth them both: in the which if I can by the scriptures be satisfied at your mouthes, I shall as willingly agree to you as any other in all poyntes.
Boner.
These heretickes come alwayes with their ifs, as this man doth now,Nay rather … Catholicke …. saying: if he can be satisfied by the scriptures: so that he will alwayes hauehave this exception, I am not satisfied, although the matter be neuer so playnly proued agaynst him. But wil you promise to be satisfied, if my Lordes take some paynes about you?
Phil.
I say (my Lord) I will be satisfied by the Scriptures in that wherein I stand. And I protest here before God & his eternall sonne Iesus Christ my Sauiour, and the holy ghost and his Angels, and you here present that be iudges of that I speak, that I do not stand in any opiniō of wylfulnes, or singularity, but onelyonly vponupon my conscience, certainly informed by gods word, from the which I dare not go for feare of damnatiō: and this is the cause of mine earnestnes in this behalfe.
Boner.
I will trouble my Lords no longer, seing that you will not declare your minde.
Phil.
I am about so to doe, if it please your Lordshippe to heare me speake.
Bathe.
Geue him leaue (my Lord) to speake that he hath to say.…
Phil.
My Lordes, it is not vnknowne to you, that the chiefe cause why you do count me and such as I am for hereticks, is because we be not at vnity with your Churche. You say, you are of the true Church: and we say, we are of the true Church. You say, that who is out of your church, is damned: and we thinke verily on the other side, that if we depart from the true church, wheron we are graffed in Gods word, we should stand in the state of dānatiō. Wherfore if your Lordship can bring any better authorityes for your church, then we can do for ours, & proue by the scriptures that the Churche of Rome nowe (of the which you are) is the true Catholick Church, as in al your sermons▪ writinges, and argumentes you doe vpholde, and that all christen persons ought to be ruled by the same vnderunder pain of damnation (as you say) and that the same Churche (as you pretend) hath authority to interprete the scriptures, as it semeth her good, and that all men are bound to folow such interpretations onelyonly: I shalbe as conformable to the same Church as you may desire me, the whiche otherwise I dare not: therfore I require you for Gods sake to satisfy me in this.
Cole.
If you stand vponupon this poynt onelyonly, you may soone be satisfied if you list.
Phil.
It is the thing that I require, & to this I hauehave sayd, I will stand, and refer all other controuersies wherein I stand now agaynst you, and will put my hād therto, if you mistrust my word.
Boner.
I pray you, mayster Philpot, what faith were you of twenty yeares ago? This man will hauehave eueryevery yeare a new fayth.S. Paule. 20. yeares before his conuersion, & S. Peter before his calling, was of an other fa…th then they were afterward: and yet it followeth not that they would hauehave eueryevery yeare a new fayth. The determination of the primitiue Church, and of the Church of Rome as it is now, is not all one. Athanasius misalledged.
Phil.
My Lorde, to tell you playne, I thinke I was of no fayth: for I was then a wicked liuer, and knewe not God then, as I ought to do, God forgeue me.
Boner.
No were? that is not so. I am sure you were of some fayth.
Phil.
My lord, I hauehave declared to you on my cōsciēce what I then was and iudge of my selfe. And what is that to the purpose of the thing I desire to be satisfied of you?
Boner.
Mayster Doctour Cole, I pray you say your mind to him.
Cole.
What will you say, if I can proue that it was decreed by an vniuersall coūcell in Athanasius time? that all the christen church should folow the determinatiō of ye church of Rome? but I do not now remember were.
Phil.
If you Mayster Doctour canne shewe me the same, graunted to the Sea of Rome, by the authority of the scripture, I will gladly harken thereto. But I thinke you be not able to shewe any suche thinge: for Athanasius was President of Nicene councell, and there was no such thing decreed, I am sure.
Cole.
Though it were not then, it might bee at an other time.
Phil.
I desire to see the proofe thereof. And vponupon this M. Harpsfield Chauncellor to the Bishop of Londō, brought in a booke of Ireneus, with certaine leaues turned in, and layd it before the Bishops to helpe them in theyr perplexity, if it might be: the which after the Bishops of Bath and Glocester had read together, the Bishop of Glocester gaue me the booke.
Gloc.
Take the booke, M. Philpot, and looke vppon that place, and there may you see how the church of Rome is to be folowed of all men.
Phil.
I tooke the Booke, and read the place, the which after I had read, I sayd it made nothing agaynst me,A place of Irenaeus alledged. but agaynst the Arians and other Heretickes, agaynst whome Ireneus wrote, prouing that they were not to be credited, because they did teach and folowe after straunge doctrine in Europa, and that the chiefe Churche of the same was founded by Peter and Paule, and had to this time continued by faythfull succession of the faythfull Bishoppes in preaching the true Gospell, as they had receiued of the Apostles, and nothing like to the late sprong Heretickes. &c. Whereby hee concludeth agaynste them, that they were not to be heard, neither to bee credited, the whiche thing if you my Lordes be able to prooue nowe of the Churche of Rome, then had you as good authoritye agaynst me in my cause now, as Ireneus had agaynst those heretickes. But the church of Rome hath swarued from the truth and simplicitye of the Gospell,The Church of Rome not now as it was then. whiche it mainteined in Ireneus time, and was vncorrupted from that whiche it is nowe: wherefore your Lordships can not iustly apply the authority of Ireneus to the Church of Rome now, which is so manifestly corrupted from the Primitiue Church.
Boner.
So will you saye still, it maketh nothinge for the purpose, whatsoeuer authority wee bring, and will neuer be satisfied.
Phil.
My Lorde, when I doe by iust reason, proue that the authorities which be brought agaynst me doe not make to the purpose (as I hauehave alredy proued) I trust you will receiue mine aunswere.
Worc.
It is to be prooued most manifestly by all auncient writers,The Church of Rome neuer deceaued. that the Sea of Rome hath alwayes folowed the truth, and neuer was deceiued, vntill of late certayne heretickes had defaced the same.
Phil.
Let that be proued, and I hauehave done.
Worcest.
Nay, you are of suche arrogancy, singularitye, and vayne glory, that you will not see it, be it neuer so wel proued.
Phil.
Ha, my Lordes, is it nowe time (thinke you) for me to folow singularity or vayne glory, since it is now vponupon daunger of my life and death, not onelyonly presently, but also before God to come? and I know, if I dye not in the true fayth, I shall dye euerlastingly, and agayne I knowe, if I do not as you would hauehave me, you will kill me and many thousandes moe: yet had I leuer perish at your handes, then to perishe eternally. And at this time I hauehave lost all my cōmodities of this worlde, and now lye in a colehouse, where a man would not lay a dog, with the whiche I am well contented.
Cole.
Where are you able to prooue, that the Churche of Rome hath erred at any time? and by what Historye? certayne it is by Eusebius, that the Church was stablished at Rome by Peter and Paul, and that Peter was bishop 25. yeares at Rome.
Phil.
I know well that Eusebius so writeth: but if we cō pare that which saynt Paul writeth to the Galathians the first it will manifestlye appeare the contrarye,I find not in Eusebius that Peter should be Bishop of Rome. 25. yeares, but this is in Linus, Hierom. lib. de viris illustr. and in Abdias. lib. 1. de vita Petri. that he was not halfe so long there. He liued not past 35. yeres after he was called to be an Apostle: and Paul maketh mention of his abiding at Hierusalem after Christes death more then 18. yeares.
Cole.
What did Peter write to the Galathians.
Phil.
No, I say Paule maketh mention of Peter writing to the Galathians, and of his abiding at Hierusalem. And further, I am able to proue, both by Eusebius & other Historiographers, that ye church of Rome hath manifestly erred, and at this present doth erre, because shee agreeth not with that which they wrote. The primitiue Church didde vse according to the Gospell, and there needeth none other proofe but compare the one with the other.
Bon.
I may compare this man to a certayne man I reade of,Harke my Lordes wise parable. which fell into a desperation, & wēt into a wood to hang himselfe, and whē he came there, he went vewing of eueryevery tree, and could find none on the which he might vouchsafe to hange himselfe. But I will not apply it as I mighte. I pray you (M. Doctor) go forth with him.
Cole.
My Lord, there be on eueryevery side on me that be better able to answere him, and I louelove not to fall in disputation, for that now a daies a man shal not but susteine shame and obloquy thereby of the people. I had leuer shewe my mind in writing.
Phil.
And I had leuer that you should do so then otherwise, for then a man may better iudge of your words then by argument, and I beseeche you so to do. But if I were a rich man, I durst wager an hundred poūdes, that you shal not be able to shew that you hauehave sayde,Neyther you nor they are able in this case. Reason why it is not lyke that in Athanasius tyme all men were bound to abide the determination of Rome. to be decreed by a generall Counsell in Athanasius time. For this I am sure of, that it was concluded by a generall Councell in Africa many yeares after, that none of Africa (vnderunder payne of excommunication) should appeale to Rome: the which Decree I am sure they woulde not hauehave made, if by the scriptures & by an vniuersall Councell it had bene decreed, that al mē should abide & folow the determination of the churche at Rome.
Cole.
But I can shew that they reuoked that error again.
Phil.
So you say, M. Doctour, but I pray you shewe me where. I hauehave hitherto heard nothing of you for my contē tation, but bare wordes without any authority.
Boner.
What, I pray you, ought we to dispute with you of our fayth? Iustinian in the law hath a title, De fide Catholica, to the contrary.
Phil.
I am certayne the Ciuill lawe hath such a constitution: but our fayth must not depend vponupon the ciuil law. For as saynt Ambrose sayth:Not the law, but the Gospell gathered the Church together. Ambrose. Non lex sed fides congregauit Ecclesiam: Not the lawe but the Gospell (sayth hee) hath gathered the church together.
Worcest.
M. Philpot, you hauehave the spirit of pride wherewith ye be led, which will not let you to yelde to the truth: leaue it for shame.
Phil.
Syr, I am sure I hauehave the spirite of fayth, by the which I speake at this present: neyther am I ashamed to stand in my fayth.
Glocest.
What do you thinke your selfe better learned then so many notable learned men as be here?
Phil.
Elias alone had the truth, when they were foure hū dreth priestes agaynst him.400. Priestes agaynst one Helias.
Worcest.
Oh, you would be counted now for Helias. And yet I tel thee he was deceiued: for he thoght there had bene none good but himselfe, and yet he was deceiued, for there were seuen hundred besides him.
Phil.
Yea but he was not deceiued in doctrine, as the other seuen hundred were.
Worcest.
By my fayth you are greatly to blame: that you can not be contēt to be of the Church which euer hath …en of that faythfull antiquity.
Phil.
My Lord I know Rome, and hauehave bene there, wher I saw your Lordship.
Worcest.
In deede I did flee from hence thither, and I remember not that I saw you there.A good … for Ro… by a Romanist. But I am sory that you hauehave bene there: for the wickednesse which you hauehave seene there, peraduenture causeth you to do as you do.
Phil.
No, my Lord, I doe not as I do, for that cause: for I am taught otherwise by the Gospell, not altogether to refuse the minister for his euill liuing, so that he bring sound doctrine out of Gods booke.
Worc.
Doe you thinke that the vniuersall Church may be deceiued?Whether the vniuersall Church may be …ceaued 2. Thess. ….
Phil.
S. Paul to the Thessalonians prophesieth that there should come an vniuersall departing from the faith in the latter dayes before the cōming of Christ, saying: Non veniet Christus nisi venerit defectio prius: that is: Christ shal not come, till there come a departing fyrst.
Cole.
Yea, I pray you, how take you the departyng there in S. Paule? It is not meant of fayth,A defection prophesied of in the Church. foreign but of the departing from the Empyre: For it is in Greeke, foreign.
Phil.
Mary in deed you (M. Doctour) put me in good remēbraunce of the meaning of S. Paule in that place, for Apotasia is properly a departing from the fayth, and thereof commeth Apostata, whiche properly signifieth one that departeth from his fayth: and S. Paule in the same place after speaketh of the decay of the Empyre.
Cole.
Apostasia doth not onelyonly signify a departing frō the fayth, but also from the Empyre, as I am able to shew.
Phil.
I neuer read it so taken, and when you shalbe able to shew it (as you say in woordes) I will beleue it, and not before.
Worcest.
I am sory that you shoulde be agaynst the Christen world.
Phil.
The world commonly and such as be called Christians (for the multitude) hath hated the truth, and bene enemies to the same.
Gloc.
Why, M. Philpot, doe you thinke that the vniuersall church hath erred, and you onelyonly to be in the truth?
Phil.
The church that you are of, was neuer vniuersall,The Pope… Church which now is, was neuer vniuersall. Of this Florentin… Councell▪ which was about the yeare .143… ▪ read before. The word or the Church iudge in controu… sies. for two parts of the world, which is, Asia & Africa neuer consented to the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, as at this day they do not, neither do folow his decrees.
Gloc.
Yes, in Florentines Councell they did agree.
Phil.
It was sayde so by false report, after they of Asia and Africa were gone home: but it was not so in deed, as the sequele of them all hitherto doth proue the contrary.
Gloc.
I pray you by whom will you be iudged in matters of controuersy which happen dayly?
Phil.
By the word of God. For Christ sayth in S. Iohn: The word that he spake, shall be Iudge in the latter day.
Gloc.
What if you take the word one way, and I an other way: who shall be iudge then?
Phil.
The Primitiue Church.
Gloc.
I know you meane the Doctors that wrote thereof.
Phil
I meane verely so.
Gloc.
What if you take the Doctors in one sense, and I in an other, who shalbe iudge then?
Phil.
Then let that be taken whiche is moste agreeable to Gods word.
Cole.
My Lordes, why do you trouble your selues to answere him in this matter? It is not the thing which is laid to his charge, but his error of the sacrament, and he to shift himselfe of that, brought in another matter.
Phil.
This is the matter, M. Cole, to the which I hauehave referred all other questions, and desire to be satisfied.
Worc.
It is wonder to see how he standeth with a few agaynst a great multitude.
Phil.
We hauehave almost as many as you. For we hauehave Asia, Africa, Germany, Denmarke, and a great part of France, and dayly the number of the Gospel doth encrease: so that I am credibly informed,Iohn Philpots Prophesie of the increase of the Gospell. that for this Religion in the whiche I stande, and for the whiche I am like to dye, a greate multitude doth dayly come out of Fraunce through persecution, that the Cityes of Germany bee scarse able to receiue them: and therefore your Lordship may be sure, the word of God will one day take place, doe what you can to the contrary.
Worc.
They were wel occupied to bring you such newes, and you hauehave bene well kept to hauehave such resort vntounto you. Thou art the arrogantest felow & stoutest fond felow that euer I knew.
Phil.
I pray your Lordship to beare with my hasty speech: for it is part of my corrupt nature to speake somewhat hastily: but for all that I meane with humility to do my duty to your Lordship.
Boner.
M. Philpot, my Lordes will troule you no further at this time, but you shall goe from whence you came, and hauehave such fauor as in the mean while I can shew you: and vponupon wednesday next you shalbe called agayn to be heard what you can say for mainteinaunce of your error.
Phil.
Iohn Philpot put of to an other day.My Lorde, my desire is to be satisfied of you in that I hauehave required: and your Lordship shall finde me, as I hauehave sayd.
Worc.
We wish you as well as our selues.
Phil.
I thinke the same (my Lordes) but I feare you are deceiued, and hauehave a zeale of your selues, not according to knowledge.
Worc.
God send you more grace.
Phil.
And also God encrease the same in you, and opē your eyes that you may see to mayneteyne his trueth and hys true Church.
Then the bishops rose vp & consulted together, & caused a writing to be made, in ye which I think my bloud by thē was bought & sold, & thereto they put to theyr handes, and after this I was caried to my Colehouse agayne.
¶Thus endeth the fourth part of this tragedy. God hasten the end therof to his glory. Amen.
Iohn Philpot to certaine that required him to wryte hys e…mination…. The … and …learned p…cedings … the…e Cat…licks … the … of Christ.BEcause I hauehave begon to write vntounto you of mine examinations before the Bishop & other, more to satisfy your desire then it is any thing woorthy to be written: I hauehave thought it good to write vntounto you also that whiche hath bene done of late, that the same might come to light which they do in darcknes and priuy corners, and that the world now and the posterity hereafter might knowe how vnorderly, vniustly, & vnlearnedly these rauening wolues doe proceed agaynst the seely and faythfull flocke of Christ, and condemne & persecute the sincere doctrine of Christ in vsus, which they are not able by honest meanes to resist, but only by tyranny and violence.