Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 4 · Chapter 5
CHAP. V.
Whether the Congregation as the Congregation doth excommunicate a delinquent? or is it the Catholick visible. Church which excommunicates?
MR. R. his meaning is, that the congregation excommunicateth The Catholick Church excommunicates antecedently, when a particular Church excommunicates: but the Catholick Church hath not, nor putteth forth a deliberate act of citing, accusing, condemning before the particular Church act any.not as a congregation, by a power which by order of nature is first in it self, but by a power which by nature is first in the whole Eldership; but yet not by an act coming from the privity, knowledge and conscience of all the whole Catholick Body of Officers all the world over. And so I grant, that the Catholick visible Church doth not anteced ntly excommunicate, leading witnesses, and summoning, and accusing, and sentencing the person before the congregation; as when Norwich puts a Traitor to death, the State of England by the Law common to all England, in and by Norwich putteth the man to death: Nor doth Norwich as a single Corporation (though neither simply as a Representative) but acting as a part of the Body of England. And the whole State doth this antecedently:
1. Because the City doth this by the same power of Law common to all England: quae sunt communi…ra sunt priora.
2. Norwich puts this Traitor to death, not as an enemy to that single Corporation onelyonly, but as a common enemy to the whole Kingdom.
3. The City doth this by an innate power, as an integral part of England, for the peace and safety of the whole Kingdom: yet doth not the whole Kingdom knowingly exercise an act of deliberate judicial authority in this; for the man is put to death without the privity and knowledge of the whole Kingdom.
I used the comparison (to cousen the inconsiderate Reader (saith Mr. H.) I hate cousening) The left hand cuts off the finger of the right hand lest it infect with a Gangrene the whole body, acted by the natural instinct, and innate desire of self. safety, which is in the whole man. But (saith Mr. H.) the chief officers are not at the mind and will, and the other Churches as the whole man: but the rest of the brethren are as the whole man, who have an intrinsical power for the safety of the whole congregation, to cut off an an infectious member.
Ans. Nor is the comparison to be strained; I shall onelyonly desire it to be taken as Mr. H. saith. Its true, the left hand doth not cut off the contagious finger, but the whole man, deliberate will and reason consenting thereunto; and the finger is cut off, not by the power of the left hand onelyonly, but the intrinsecal power of the body.
And it is so exactly in a particular congregation, the chief officers, as the mind and will, and the rest of the Brethren as the whole, have an intrinsecal power from Christ to remove an infectious member.
Ans. They have a power to remove him (saith Mr. R. in his The comparisō of cutting off an infectious member from the whole Catholick visible Church, is strained by M. H.comparison) not from that congregation onelyonly, but from the whole Catholick Body: As the left hand cuts off the contagious finger, not from the right hand onelyonly, but from the whole body. It wrongeth Christ to say, he hath given so selfie and narrow a power, to liberate onelyonly a body of 10 or 20 Independent members from the contagion of scandal, but not to free five thousand, and the associate bodies round about: Let them perish, Christ hath given no Organick or Church-care to the congregation toward them all (saith Mr. H.)
2. The comparison is not exact. When the fraternity excommunicates all their officers, where is the mind and will then? for they excommunicate their own minde and will.
3. Mr. R. never meant the comparison should hold in this, That the Catholick Church, as mind and will, should put forth acts of deliberate reason—antecedently to cite, accuse, sentence every delinquent in an Oecumenick Councel, or some Catholick Judicature, and to excommunicate all Delinquents, before ever the congregation cite them. With divers arguments he refutes an antecedent excommunication, as if I held any such thing. So Mr. H. loves to prove strongly what Mr. R. never denied.
But Mr. H. speaks nothing to my Argument, if the m…n be cast out, and bound on earth, he must be bound only on that tract of earth where twenty Independents are.
But 1. Church binding in heaven, and the guiltiness of the scandal is alike in all places, and often more infectious to others, if it be a taking heresie, then to their own congregation.
2. Who shall perswade that our Saviours sense is so hampered? Let him be to thee as an heathen, Mat. 18. 17. as thee only, who art a member of the congregation whereof he is a member; yea, as touching Church binding, neither is he a known guiltless visible Saint to all Churches on earth. It is nothing but a naked evasion to say he is consequently cut off from right to ordinances in all other congregations, for because one species of corporations hath condemned a man (saith Mr. H. page 236.) it follows not, that therefore all have condemned him to imprisonment perpetual, or the like.
Ans. Yea, what one City doth in punishing a Malefactor by Law power, common to all England, that same all England He who is excommunicate in one Church is antecedently excommunicate in all.doth in law: for twenty Sons have by the same Law and Authority of the Fathers right of twenty Tables of twenty Families of the Father. One is for sedition against his Father cast out of one Family, whereof he is a fixed member; the other nineteen, though they know nothing of the fact, and doe never actually cite him, yet do legally, and by the Law, and the same very wil of the Father, that ruleth them all, cast him antecedently out, or concomitanter; or then another Law must appoint the other nineteen Families to cast him out. So the same right idem numero, that Peter hath to Christ and Ordinances in one Church, he hath it in all; and that same act of the Keyes administred according to the rule of the Word, in one Church removing that right, removes it from him all the World over.
3. Visible Saints by this shall not be the same spiritually politick body, visible, being of divers congregations: contrary to Scripture, expounded by Mr. H. and Mr. Cotton, we being many are one body visible, and visible of twenty congregations, partaking 1 Cor. 10. 17. foreign. Excommunication by consequence is no excommunication at all.of one bread and body of Christ. Now by this, as a finger cut off Paul, is not a finger cut off Iohn, for Iohn hath all his ten fingers entire, and Paul hath his nine fingers only: So also if Thomas disobedient he cast out of only his own congregation, he is never cast out of Church-right to Christ, and ordinances in the rest of the congregations; for excommunication by consequence, is only a declaring by witnesses (as Mr. H. saith pag. 242.) that the man is cast out of his own congregation. Now the declaring that Paul's finger is cut off, is not a cutting off of his finger, that is impossible. Far less is it possible, that the declaring that Paul's finger is cut off, can be either a declaring that Peters finger is cut off, or that that declaring is a cutting off of Paul's finger, or a cutting off of Peters finger. Therefore Peters being cast one of his own Church-right, and Church only, is no casting of him out of other Churches, or real removing of his Church-right to ordinances in other Churches. For that which was never really removed, and Peter once had, it must remain with Peter yet: now Peter was never a member of any congregation but of one; then membership to another congregation cannot be taken from him.
4. A member is cast out as really scandalous; his adultery obstinately continued in makes him be deprived of Christian fellowship with Brethren as Brethren: Ergo, he is deprived of the Christian fellowship of all Brethren. For foreign followeth upon foreign.
And 5. It is thus confirmed; his visible scandal is a Church-offence to one of a Sister-congregation, and is apt to bring a Church-contagion to these of another congregation, who are foreign, one body with him at the Lords Table; and therefore are they now to look on him as an Heathen. But who put him in that state, if he be not really and formally cast out A strange exposition of that, he that heareth you heareth me; which follows from Mr. H. his way.of that body, when his own Church excommunicates him?
6. He that hears not the Church, heares not Christ, and he that despiseth any Pastor sent in the name of Christ, despiseth Christ, Mat. 10. 4. Luke 10. 16. Iohn 13. 20. Now if this stand good, one that despiseth his own Pastor only, and his own congregation only, though he despise all the godly Prophets, Pastors, and soundest Churches on earth, despiseth not Christ nor his Father that sent him; nor is he first in foro Dei, bound in Heaven, and guilty before God, nor deserves he to be excommunicate, for he hath not failed against that, He that despiseth you despiseth me. For that is true only when any despiseth their own Pastor, or their own congregation. And if so, then when one is cast out, and judgeth an heathen for not hearing of his own Church, he is not heathen in Heaven, and in foro Dei, as touching his communion with other Pastors and other congregations.
7. Peter before he was excommunicated, had a real right to the Lords Table in all Churches on earth, and so a sort of membership and visible communion with all these Churches. Now if by the act of excommunication in his own Church, this right be not taken from him, then must it be taken from him by all the Churches: and so all the Churches must excommunicate when one excommunicates: and by the like, all must admit one into membership, when one admits into membership.
Mr. H. The Sister Churches (Mr. R.) receive members of other Churches to communion, by an intrinsecal Church power.
Ans. By an authoritative Church power we can enjoyn our own members to come to the seals, or else censure them; but we cannot so deal with others, if it shall seem good to them to refuse.
Ans. This only follows, that the congregation hath a larger Church power over their own members, both to censure them, if they come not, and positively to admit them, if they come: but Mr. H. must confess that the congregation admits strangers of other congregations, by a meer private p…wer, and by no Church power, which is gross Erastianisme, and makes it arbitrary to one single Pastor to admit some to the communion, as he pleaseth, and some not.
2. By no Church power is the Sacrament tendered to strangers of another congregation; so may the Minister give this Mr. H. allows of private Communions.seal to a stranger in his chamber, which is a private communion, for there is no authoritative Church power required to give it to some. Whereas Paul saith, it is a priviledge of the Church, coming together to eat the Lords Body, 1 Cor. 11. 17, 18, 21. 1 Cor. 10. 17.
3. This Supper must be given to our own Church members by Church authority; to strangers by no Church authority.
4. It is by accident that the congregation cannot compel strangers to come to this seal, for in Collegio the Elders of the congregation may joyntly with the rest of the Presbytery censure these of another flock, who altogether refuse the seals.
5. Mr. H. grants that a congregation excommunicates in the Page 240.general nature of a congregation. Well then, the general nature discourseth in man; and so doth a Church in an Island excommunicate; Ergo, that Church proceeding according to the rule of Christ, casts the man formally out of all the congregations on earth.
Mr. H. addeth, yea the neighbour Churches are (saith Mr. R.) to Page 241, 242.exercise the punishment of avoiding the excommunicate person as an heathen, which follows from a power which is no wayes in them; what conscience is here?
Ans. A good conscience, if we may carry our selves to a scandalous m…n so d…clared by two or three witnesses, as we avoid his company; far more upon the testimony of a whole Church, are we to avoid his company.
Ans. Then nothing is left to the neighbour Churches, but is he excommunicate or not, by one onelyonly congregation, they had no hand in it, onelyonly they must believe the man is rightly cast out, upon the word of five or six of the male-Church, who are both Judge and Party. This is what I said. A declararation of Excommunication is no Excommunication. And then must the congregations about with the meer judgment of discretion, which women have, eschew the man as a Pagan.
Obj. By Mr. R. his way, you have the testimony of the Church only which did excommunicate?
Ans. Yea, place is left to many Churches and Synods to judg: this is another matter, then four of the male-Church that are both Judge and Party, who declare he is cast out.
Mr. H. One classical Church excommunicates not antecedenter. But a man in the confines of two Presbyteries is excommunicated by the Presbytery only of which he is a member, saith Mr. R.
Ans. What ropes can tie the consequent with the antecedent? What Mr. R. hath said of the antecedent excommunication of the Catholick Church, is plain by the former discussion.