Survey of the Survey of that Sum of Church Discipline by Hooker, Book 2 · Chapter 1
LIB. II. CHAP. I.
Whether or not a company of Believers destitute as yet of Officers, and combined together by this new Covenant, be truely called, and be in truth and indeed a Church?
MR. Hooker moves the question, whether such a Mr. H. par. 1. c. 8. pag. 89. Mr. H. is dubious what is the instituted Church in the New Testament. Way of the Church of N. E. c. 1. sect. 1. pro. 1. pag. 1, 2.company be a Church indeed? by which he insinuates, that it is a certain kind of a visible Church, but not the only visible Church instituted by Christ in the New Testament. Therefore Mr. H. stands obliged either to form the question in other terms, or to shew which is the only instituted visible Church in the New Testament: for the Discipline-book of N. E. saith, that Church which Christ in his Gospel hath instituted, to which he hath committed the Keyes—the Officers, Censures—is coetus fidelium, a combination of the godly—called a particular visible Church. And Mr. H. comes to our hand, and (so with a trumpet giving an uncertain sound) he tells he speaks of the Congregational Church, as it goes before Officers; which is a Man in the Moon, and proved by no Scripture at all.
Mr. H. The trumpet here gives an incertain sound. M. R. expressions are so full of variety.
Ans. It is a groundless charge, except you bring expressions of Mr. R. ambiguities, which is not legible to the Reader: I blow the trumpet alwayes against such a visible Church as Mr. H. forgeth by arguments from the word, which are not answered.
Mr. H. A Church ministerial is taken two wayes. 1. Generally, Pa. 8. par. 1. p. 90, 91.as implying any delegate power in the exercise of any Church-acts, under Christ. So a company of visible Saints hath power of admission of members, and election of officers; and in case they prove heretical, to reject the officer, and make him no officer. All these are granted by Mr. R. Ministerial power is taken strictly, as it includes an office power, so it is not ministerial.
Ans. Mr. H. dictates, but neither teaches nor brings one word of Scripture to prove a distinction that hath neither head nor feet.
2. The members of the distinction are coincident; for to ordain officers, and excommunicate them is governing strictly and most properly; as is in the second member. And yet in the first Mr. H. makes a Church without Rulers, to be a Ruling Church to ordain officers, and excommunicate. Mr. Cotton Keys c. 4. par. 2 as the Presbytery cannot excommunicate the whole church (though Apostates) for they must tell the church—so neither can the church excommunicate the whole Presbytery, because they have not received from Christ an office of rule, without their officers. M. Cot. contradicts M. H.member, to excommunicate makes a ministerial Church largely so called. The distinction is a begging of the question, and destroyes it self; for it is to ask whether visible Saints, wanting such as are the only Governours and Rulers, who are called in the word foreign, 1 Cor. 12. 28. foreign, 1 Tim. 5. 17. foreign, Heb. 13. 17. Rulers, be a ruling and a governing Church, for a Society that doth ordain Elders, and which censures them, if heretical, with excommunication, must be a Ruling, and so a Ministerial Church, if there be any Ruling and Ecclesiastick Church on Earth. If any say that a Society that appoints Stewards and Officers over the house, and excommunicateth them, is not a politick governing Society; they may deny that the man which maketh use of reason is a reasonable creature. And to frame a distinction, and say a man is a reasonable There is no warrant in the word for a male Church-ruling and admitting members, ordaining & excommunicating officers, and yet that is void of rule and officecreature in that sense, is poor Logick. We can give instances where the Presbytery ordains, and layes on hands, 1 Cor. 4. 14. and where Titus and other Elders are to ordain Elders in every City, Tit. 1. 5. and Timothy, and in him others are charged to lay on hands, and ordain no man suddenly, while he be proved to be a fit Officer, 1 Tim. 5. 22. 1 Tim. 3. 10. and where Timothy and others with him are commanded, 2 Tim. 2. 2. to commit the ministry to faithful men, who are able to teach others. Would Mr. H. shew so much for the power of Rule in a company of Believers, void of Officers, or give us a shadow of reason in the word from precepts, practices, promises, for this new Church, that ordains and excommunicates without Officers, they should have something to say to this, who upon good groun… say, they coyn a new Church of their own, unknown to word.
Mr. H. indeed elswhere saith, Such places shall prove Ti… thy and Titus to be Prelats.
I answer, 1. Mr. H. and our Brethrens way shall be straited with this groundless Argument, as well as we.
2. We say, these Epistles in point of governing, as trying The Ep… to Timot… Titus are ne… ther written to them as to Prelats, & Pastors of Pastors, nor to unoffic'd christians, nor to them as Evangelists, but especially as representing Elders, to be a copy to officers, to the appearing of Christ.of Pastors, 1 Tim. 3. 1, 2, 3. of Deacons, ver. 10. of Elders, 1 Tim. 1. 17. ordaining or laying on of hands, ver. 22. receiving of accusation by witnesses, 19, 20. the ordaining of Elders thus and thus qualified, Tit. 1. 5, 6, 7, 8. 2 Tim. 2. 2. preaching the Gospel in season and out of season 2 Tim 4. 1, 2. with gentleness, 1 Tim. 5. 15. ruling in the house of God, 1 Tim. 3. 16. charging of men to preach sound doctrine. 1 Tim. 1. 3. dividing the word aright, 2 Tim. 2. 14, 15. These Epistles (I say) are written to Timothy and to Titus, not as little Monarchs, with preeminence above other Elders, but to them as representing all faithful Officers in the Colledge of that Presbytery, 1 Tim. 4. 14. who are to keep that command unviolable, to the second appearing of Christ, 1 Tim 6. 13. and they are not written to Elders as having dominion over the faith of the people.
2. If these Epistles were written to Timothy and Titus not as representing Officers, but as the Church representing the people, yet wanting Officers, and so in a Church-capacity, then it should be Pauls minde that the people in that case destitute of Elders, should preach the word in season and out of season; as Timothy, 2 Tim. 4. 1, 2. and that the people, in that capacity, should, as the approved workmen of God, divide the word of truth rightly, 2 Tim. 2. 15. as well as they ordain Elders, and make and unmake Officers, by the places, 1 Tim. 5. 22, 2 Tim. 2. 2. Tit. 1. 5. yea, and the Apostle should not have ordained Titus to appoint Elders in every city, for he should have appointed the Cities and Churches of onelyonly believers to ordain their own Elders.
Yea 3. the Church void of Elders, by our Brethrens way, are the onelyonly society and visible Church on earth, who make and unmake, call and excommunicate Officers, and Officers have no hand in it, but accidentally: for, Elders are made, and if heretical, rejected (saith Mr. H.) by the people, having no Elders at all. Ergo, these Epistles must be written to the believers of Ephesus and Crete that yet want Officers, that they may be instructed how to behave them…elves in the house of God, how to lay on hands, how to receive accusations, and how to prove and try officers. Yea, Paul should not have written Rules to Timothy and Titus the publick Officers, who by their office ought to have no hand in calling or rejecting of Officers by this way.
Lastly, saith Mr. H. All these are granted by Mr. R.
Whereas in many pages I dispute against this new visible Church, and grant no such thing, but suppose all the Officers should turn heretical in this, in that case the people in tutelâ inculpata salutis, when they turn Wolves, may withdraw. But Pauls Presbyt. cap. 4. ans. to ar. 6. p. 45.I say not they can authoritatively excommunicate, and make and unmake Officers; and the Officers, when the people turn Familists, may withdraw and remove the Tabernacle.
Mr. H. God hath set officers in the Church, 1 Cor. 12. 28. Therefore the Church is before officers.Page 90, 91.
The setting of the candle in the candlestick presupposeth the candlestick; the Church is the candlestick, Revel. 1. 20. the officers are the candles. Mr. R. answered, It was not good Logick.
Ans. I yet maintain this to be naughty Logick, and a naughty Grammatication: and if this be the best Argument for this The Logick of Mr. H. God set officers in the Church; Ergo, the Church without officers is a ruling Church before they have Rulers, is naughty. So Mr. Robinson, Justif. of Separat. Pref. p. 9. Bishops and Elders are the onelyonly ordinary Governors in the Church—But not essential to the Church. Sure they must be essential to the governed Church. Mr. Robinson ib. p. 295.new conceit, it cannot stand.
God (saith Moses, Gen. 2. 7.) formed man of the dust, and God breathed in his (that is) in the nostrils of the man, the breath of life.
Ergo, He is a living man before the soul be breathed in him. Its naughty Logick like this.
Mr. H. God made man of earth, i. e. the body of man of the earth, and he breathed into the nostrils of that body so made by that mean, the breath of life: to affirm the body was made before the soul was infused; and that the body, which is the subject, to receive the soul, must be in nature before the soul, is very good Logick.
Ans. The Logick is yet naughty: for Moses saith, God breathed in man a living soul, therefore Adam is a living man before his soul be infused. By this Logick
Mr. H. will but change my consequence, parallel and large as good as his. And have it thus:
God breathed in mans body as the matter, a living soul as the form.
Ergo, the body is in nature before the soul.
I shall not deny that consequence: but 1. The antecedent is not the Grammatical phrase, and the figurative speech of Moses, as my antecedent is. God breathed a living soul in the nostrils of man: Ergo, he was man before God breathed in him a living soul. So I desire Mr. H. to answer the like quirk of Grammar, Zech. 12. 1.
God createth the spirit in the midst of man.
Ergo, he was a man before God created a spirit in the midst of him.
So Isa. 42. 5.
God gives breath and spirit to the people, and to those that walk on the earth.
By this Argument,
Therefore the people are a living people, moving and walking upon the earth, before God gave them breath and spirit. What more absurd?
So Mr. H. God hath set officers in the Church:
Therefore the Church is before the officers.
So God hath set the members, pastor and people, eye, ear, hands and feet, &c. every one of them in the body, as pleaseth him, 1 Cor. 12. 18. this is as much as, God hath placed single believers also (for believers are not members visible without Gods setting) not yet clothed with adjuncts (as they call them) of officers in the Church, ver. 18. or in the body visible.
Therefore by the consequence and grammatication every way alike,
The body or Church visible of combined believers, shall be before the body or Church visible of combined believers. But the Conclusion is absurd. What then hath Mr. H. gained by this Argument? Of necessity then, when the Apostle saith, God hath placed in the Church Apostles, Prophets;
The word Church, must be the visible Catholick organick Church, which is made organick by such organs as Apostles, Prophets, so seated.
Like this, God hath created a soul in man, and yet he is a man by the soul that is created in him, and is not a man before it be created in him.
Mr. H. Beside there's advantage to the cause, that not onelyonly the Page 92.subject in which these officers are, is totum essentiale, but by vertue of her choise which is causal of the officers, they are there, saith Mr. H. and therefore in reason must be before them.
Ans. Its a great disadvantage, and an untruth, to call the By Mr. H. the adjuncts beget the subject, the sons the fathers.Elders and Rulers of a politick ruling visible Church, which is an organical body, the adjuncts thereof: for the members and organs of an organical body, are the integral parts, and so in a physical consideration, the essential parts of the whole integral are not adjuncts by any Logick I know: and if you take away the integral parts wholly, you destroy the integral whole; but if you remove the adjuncts or accidents, you destroy not the subject.
2. What Logick is this, to make the Fathers, Apostles and Pastors who beget, and the Ministers by whom we believe, and visibly believe, Rom. 10. 14, 15. Eph. 4. 11, 12. 1 Cor. 3. 5. the separable adjuncts of begotten children? This is strange Logick, Whiteness begot Snow! And this is as strange, that this Church of believers is the cause, and the officers the effect; that is, the adjunct is the cause, and the children, the Church of believers, or the subject is the effect, and the effect begets the cause, and is before the cause, and the fruit hath being before the tree, and the children before the father: for if we speak of a constant Rule, as now we must do, when Apostles are removed, if the Church of believers be a visible Church, having the Keyes and using them, even to admit officers, and to excommunicate them, they
1. Dispense censures and govern, who have no call to carry on censures and government, by preaching the Word, or exhorting and praying, for there are no officers as yet, &c. If these be visible believers, who are their fathers who begat them? for there are no officers yet to beget them.
3. Who begot them by the preaching of the Word? and if they were heathens, and are now converted, who either did convert them or baptize them? for there are no officers as yet: Did every one baptize another? or did unbaptized members baptize their own Ministers who are yet unbaptized? and this argument must be strongly retorted: The officers cannot be the effect of this Church, for they are the onelyonly causes of the very materials of this Church; for officers must convert, gather a flock to God, and baptize them, if it be true, that faith comes (in the Lords ordinary and instituted way) by hearing of sent Pastors, Rom. 10. 14.
Mr. H. The Church (saith Mr. R.) is the candlestick, not The Churches Rev. 1. 2. are not a number of unofficed believers, but the believers with Doctors and Teachers as shining Lamps.simply without candles and lamps; the Church Ministerial is the candlesticks, and the Ministers the shining torches and candles. Its cross to all mens apprehensions, saith Mr. H. that the candlestick should be no longer a candlestick than the candle is in it: They are bought and sold for candlesticks. Is not a subject a subject, though the adjunct be not there? What kinde of Logick is this?
Ans. Its indeed unknown Logick, that officers the fathers should be adjuncts, and the Church of believers begotten by them, as is said, the children should be the subject.
2. Mr. H. will have a figurative speech against all Logick and Grammar, to be a proper speech, and the candlestick, Rev. 1. 20. to be like the candlesticks of brass or other metal, or wood, which are bought or sold. So when its said, Christ walketh in the midst of the golden candlesticks, the sense must be, Christ walkesh in the midst of Churohes destitute of Angels and Officers: Whereas he hath promised his presence to the officers, Matth. 28. 20. especially, L… I am with you—and by this Christ must promise his presence to blinde candlesticks, and to Churches wanting officers and Angels. Then the meaning of this, Rev. 2. 5. I will remove the candlestick, must be, O Ephesus, I will remove believers, and that homogeneal body of Saints, as destitute of Angels. Never man dreamed of any such sense as this since the world was. But the true sense is, I will remove a shining Ministery, and the Ordinances, and the eight of the p…ed Gospel, and the Word of the Kingdom; as Zech. 9. 8. Three shepherds also I cut off in one monethmonth—Then said I, I will not feed you. Amos 8. 12. They shall seek the word of the Lord, and shall not finde it. Mat. 21. 43. The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, Acts 13. 46, 47. Let Mr. H. shew how the Church without the Minister is called the golden candlestick? And where the Church of believers, without the stars and torches, is called The light of the world? Godly and found Interpreters, Pareus, Pignetus, Marlorat, Piscater, Di…ati, English Divines, The Church are candlesticks, Pareus Com. in Apocalyp. in loc. Candelabris assimilantur—quia Ecclesia gestat facem coelest is doctrinae. Pignet. Apoc. 1. Quia in ea v…rum lumen lucet. Marlor. Quia in ea sunt Prophetae, Apostoli, Evang…listae—quia lucent per saluberrimam vitae doctrinam. Piscat. Apoc. 1… observ. 39. Candelabra illa quae vidisti—in vera Ecclesia instar auri splendet & lucet pura doctrina. So Diodati, English Annotations, Beza.because they bear (saith Pareus) the torch of heavenly Doctrine. So Pignetus, Marlorat, Piscator.
Mr. H. A Corporation of Aldermen, before they choose a Major, is a free Corporation: Ergo, the Church of believers is a visible Mr. H. Survey, p. 92.Church before it have officers. A man cannot be a husband before he have a wife, yet he may be a man wooing woman before he can make her his wise.
Ans. 1. The comparison is most unlike. For,
1. A Corporation of Aldermen is a Corporation of free It is not a like in a Church wanting officers, as in a civil corporation wanting Rulers. Papists so argue. See Jac. Gualter. in Tabula Chronographic. Secul. 1. ad an. 100. verita. sect. 1. p. 150.Citizens and Magistrates, such as Aldermen are, though they yet want a Magistrate supreme, or a Major. The Church void of all officers … not a body capable of governing in a formal way.
2. Say they want Aldermen, they had by nature an intrinsacal power to choose to themselves private men to be their Rulers, whereas before they were no Rulers: But the making and laying on of hands upon men, to make them Elders, agrees not to believers, because visible believers, by the Law of Nature, but by a positive Law of God is given to a certain number of Presbyters or Elders, 1 Tim 4. 14. as is above proved.
3. Say that fourty Pagans, not baptized, were made by the travels of some private Christian, man or woman, visible Saints, fourty unbaptized could not make unbaptized Pag… their Rulers and Pastors, as they could make some of their members their Civil Magistrates.
4. That Corporation doe… he get and create their Rulers, and their Rulers, who are posteriour to them, did not beget them, and make them free Citizen…. But officers …cording to the fixed Rule of the Gospel, now when Apostles cease to be, are the onelyonly fathers who baget visible professor.
Mr. H. If the Church …net a Church without officers, then Page 92.as often as the officers die, the Church di… also.
2. When the Church for gross heresias rejecteth the officers, the Church must destroy her self, while she laboureth her own preservation. Doth a Corporation, when they put out a wicked Magistrate out of his place, therefore destroy their own Liberties, and nullifie their Corporation? Such Arguments may seem …n…ugh to cast a cause, and yet Mr. R. by them can turn all aside.
Ans. Its unfit that a man should so reflect upon his Brethren, It is not absurd that a politick body destroy its own politick being, when they rem…ve Lions & Leopards which destroyed h…m.when there is so little strength.
1. The Pastors being the husband, and the Church the wife, sure, if the wife destroy the husband to save her self, she destroys her own wife ship, while she labours the preservation of her self as a woman: and if the Church destroy all the heretical officers, is there any absundity to say, She destroyeth her own Ministerial feeding, her own sacramental communion, by which she is one body with all the Saints on earth, as the Brethren grant; and its sure from 1 Cor. 10. 16, 17. & 12. 13. as touching any spiritual well-being and feeding by these wretched feeders: but they have no authority to do it. I see no inconvenience, why a Corporation may not out, and lay aside all their Aldermen and Major, if they turn Lions and Leopards, and so destroy the present individual Government, while they labour their own safety, and the safety of their priviledges. But the case is not alike, except Mr. H. prove, That the Church of believers hath the same positive power of Government intrinsecal without their officers, and onelyonly fathers who begat them to Christ, to use the Keyes, and formally to excommunicate them, as a free City hath over their Magistrates.
2. If the officers die, sure the organical Church dies, and the organical, and the ministerial and politick essence of that visible Church, as it is totum integrale, dies.
2. I retort the Argument. When the Church of the Jews, Acts 13. & 18. turns heretical, and blasphemes, and refuses to be the married wife (I speak in our Brethrens language) if the Church of officers reject them, and turn to others, it shall not follow.
1. That the officers destroy their own husbandly power, while they labour their own preservation: which is the great absurdity that Mr. H. puts upon Mr. R. as enough to cast the cause.
2. Shall it follow, That the officers without the people, or governing without, yea contrary to their consent, is a true visible Church? in no sort.
Mr. H. When the tents are removed, they are not the shepherds tents: to remove the candlestick is to remove the Ministery, and Page 92, 93.remove all the Officers, the Church is not a body visible eating one bread, 1 Cor. 10. 16, 17. So Mr. R. But Mr. H. answers, Yet they are called tents fit to receive shepherds, and are the same they were before the shepherds were chosen, and remain the same: To remove the candlestick is to remove the Ministery, because Ministery and Ministers have their dependence on the Church; destroy the man the whole, you destroy the parts; but it holds not contrariwise: its true in a Ministerial Church, i. e. an organicum totum, when you take away any part, you lame the integrity of it; but you dedestroy not the essence of it, as it is totum essentiale.
Ans. It is enough to me, if ye remove all Officers and Shepherds, it is no ruling Church, though the fitness of choice (which is no act of government) do still remain; yet the fitness to ordain and to excommunicate remains not, for they never had it; Luke distinguishes the one from the other, Acts 6. 3, 5. the multitude foreign, chused not the Apostles; but the twelve Apostles, To remove the candlestick is to remove the Ministry, and so the church is not a politick church any more.not the multitude, ordained them by praying and laying on of hands, v 6. as the Elders do, and they only, in the New Testament, 1 Tim. 4. 14. 1 Tim. 5. 22.
2. It is good that Mr. H. grants that to remove the Candlestick, is to remove the minist…y; I hope he means the shining, burning, and guiding Ministers and Watchmen, 1 Tim. 3. 1, 2. Mat. 5. 14. Ioh. 5. 35. But in the other page 91, 32. It is cross to all mens apprehensions (saith he) that the Candlestick should include Candles and Lamps.
3. Nor is it true in Mr. H. his way, that to remove the candlestick, is to remove the Ministry; for there remaineth a preaching and a praying Church (which is at the ordaining of Officers, and sending them, Act. 1…15. & 6. 24. Act. 13. 1, 2, 3. Act. 6. 6.) which doth only make and unmake officers, saith Mr. H.
4. Destroy the whole (saith he) and you destroy the parts; but it holds not, contrariwise: why not contrariwise? if you destroy all the parts (otherwise the Logick is naught) take away eyes, and ears, and hands, and feet, and all the integral parts, or all the essential parts, and you destroy the whole, in any sense; too much of this Logick Mr. H. gives us.
5. Take away (saith he) in an Organick or Ministerial body a member, you lame the integrity. Now the ministry and officers are removed by the people, because they are heretical, as Mr. H. teacheth page 90. I pray you, remains there a ministerial or organick body? no, saith M. H. there remains a homogeneous body.
4. Take away any part, you lame the integrity; take then away the ministry, you lame the body. O Logick! the ministry is a separable adjunct to Mr. H. page 92. Here it is an integral part; is an integral part an adjunct? is the eye an adjunct of the organical body? is the integrity hurt, because a separable adjunct is removed?
5. Nor is this true, take away any part in an organical body, and you lame the integrity; it is only true of an organical part, not of any part; take away ten members, believers only, the Church remaineth an entire, and unlamed integral body: let ten free members of a City be removed by death, yet the City remains an unmaimed entire body of Citizens, ruled by Major and Aldermen.
6. Remove the ministry, the essence and organical body remaineth not.
Mr. H. That which is added, is more beside the cause; It is granted Pag. 93.where Officers are not, there is no communion of the Sacraments, is there therefore no Church-communion?
Ans. If this communion be removed, there is no communion of the Church, which being many members, is one body, 1 Cor. 10. 16, 17. & 12. 12, 13. And what reason but a Church, and the only instituted visible Church in the new Testament, as the book of Discipline of N. E. makes it, should be a complete Church The way of the Churches of Christ in N. E. c. 1. sect. 1. prop. 1. p. 1, 2.in being and operation, and partake of all Church-communion, though it want the officers, which are to Mr. H. but poor harmless separable adjuncts? page 92. and this is somewhat for the cause.
M. H. We have done now with the first Quere, and made it clear, That this Church is before all Officers, and may be without them.
Ans. So Mr. H. hath done, and made it as clear as midnight darkness, with whole two Arguments, the one whereof is a poor Grammatication, and scarce that, and the other a begging of the question; that there is a ruling Church before, and without officers, which may make and unmake officers.