Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist, Discourse (4 of 4)

Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist · Discourse (4 of 4)

p. 175N. C.

Yes, I feel that he and the reſt of the Apoſtles ſpeak the very truth.

C.

They ſay all theſe things; and do you know them by your feeling? The Apoſtles indeed, felt, or ſaw, or heard them; but we cannot do ſo, nor know them by any other means than their Teſtimony.

p. 176N. C.

I feel that their Teſtimony is true.

C.

What? Do you feel that they ſay true, for inſtance, when they tell you that our Saviour turn'd Water into Wine, and that he raiſed Lazarus from the dead?

N. C.

No, I know theſe things otherways.

C.

Then you muſt know the reſt by the ſame means that you know theſe, viz. by believing Eye-witneſſes of theſe things, who you find are perſons worthy to be credited.

N. C.

But I feel the Commands of Chriſt are exceeding good, and agreeable to humane Nature, which the Apoſtles have delivered to us.

C.

That is, you find it good to live ſoberly, and peaceably; to be charitable to others, and to take up your own Croſs with Contentedneſs and Patience—

N. C.

Yes.

C.

But may not theſe things be felt by Heathens as well as you? And may not they by Experience commend the practice of theſe Vertues to us?

N. C.

I think they have done it.

C.

Then this Experience of the goodneſs of Chriſt's Commands is no proof of our Creed, by which we are diſtinguiſhed from Heathens. No, nor will your Experience prove to any man that Chriſt's Commands are excellent, any farther than he believes that you ſay true, p. 177when you tell him what trial you have made of the beſt kind of Life, and that you are a perſon fit to judge of the Difference of things.

N. C.

Methinks I feel that Jeſus Chriſt is in the Heavens, and in great Power and Glory there.

C.

Whatſoever you feel in this matter, it is the Effect of your belief, not the Cauſe of it. I mean, you firſt believe, that he is in Glory; before you can feel any good hopes in your Soul of immortal Life. And you believe his being in Glory upon good Reaſons; elſe you do not know but entertain your ſelf with a pleaſant Dream, both of his Glory and yours. And laſtly, whatever you feel it is no proof of the truth of the thing, but only of the truth of your Belief. It is to be proved otherwiſe that Chriſt reigns gloriouſly in the Heavens, and is able to bring us into his everlaſting Kingdom: only your being ſo mightily affected with it, proves that indeed you believe it. But you had beſt look you have good Reaſons for your Faith. For all the Severities of the Religious men among the Turks, prove likewiſe that they believe ſtrongly in Mahomet: though I hope, if they quote their Experiences never ſo much, you will not be a Diſciple to their Prophet, and hope he will take you by the hair of the head, and pull you up to Heaven.

p. 178N. C.

I find that you are able to talk more rationally than I can in theſe matters. But yet I find likewiſe, there is another kind of Spirit in our people than in yours. For they delight more in Heavenly Diſcourſe, and are alwayes talking of Religion when they are together: which argues they are not of ſo ſlight a Spirit as others, who love to diſcourſe of unprofitable things.

C.

Do you and I talk frothily, (as your phraſe is) and ſpend our time in unprofitable Chat? Is this Diſcourſe earthly, and not at all pertaining to Religion? And, deal ſincerely with me, do not you ſometime, when you are together, paſs the time away in ſpeaking againſt Biſhops and Common-Prayer, and the Government? Do you not know ſome that are ever complaining of the Times in which we live, and ſaying the former Dayes were better than theſe? And are the Reaſons of this murmuring ſo Heavenly as you ſuppoſe? Do they not ſay the Nation was in more Credit; and had a better Reputation abroad, and they a better Trade at home, and ſuch like things?

N. C.

I cannot deny but I have heard ſome Profeſſors talk thus. But there are a great number that you ſhall ſcarce ever hear talking of any thing elſe but Heaven, and Jeſus Chriſt, and the buſineſs of their Souls.

C.

And ſuch people there are in all Parties and Sects in the Chriſtian World; who p. 179perhaps are never awhit the better for that.

N. C.

How irreligiouſly you talk?

C.

Not at all. For unleſs they take a true delight in God, and in that Heavenly Diſcourſe above all other things, and unleſs they underſtand what they ſay, and delight alſo to do God's will in all things: I think they had as good be talking of, or doing ſomething elſe.

N. C.

Can they poſſibly be better imploy'd?

C.

Yes, that they may. For if they only tumble out a great many words and Phraſes which they have learn'd, they had better be Studying what the Religion of Jeſus Chriſt is. And if they talk of thoſe matters meerly as it is a Duty, and be not ſo heavenly-minded as that, whenſoever they have leiſure, it is the greateſt joy that can be to be thinking or diſcourſing of them; they will do this after a very bad faſhion, when ſome other good thing they might have done better; as, viſited the Sick, inquired after the Wants of the Poor, or ordered ſome Pariſh-buſineſs. And again, unleſs they be very prudent, and do not think they muſt needs draw the Company wherein they are (who are ingag'd, perhaps, in other neceſſary Buſineſs) to hear their diſcourſe; I think their room, as we ſay, would be better than their company, or, that it were better p. 180that they would hold their peace. For if a man take himſelf to be bound in Conſcience to be always ſpeaking of theſe things, (as I doubt many do) it is the effect of Superſtition, which makes Religion a great burthen to a man's ſelf and others. For whether he and the Company be diſpoſed or no, this he thinks is his Buſineſs which he often manages very dully, and without any Taſte: thereby rendring Chriſtianity Contemptible, and making himſelf alſo ſtill more flat and indiſpoſed for all honeſt imployments. All which conſidered, I leave you to judge, whether that man had not better have beſtow'd his time otherways; for then he might at the end of it have been good for ſomething, whereas now he is good for nothing at all; but mopiſhly ſits bewailing himſelf, and complaining of the deadneſs of his heart.

N. C.

Ought not a man to be always thinking of Heaven?

C.

No: He may and ought ſometime to think of other things. And he ſhould do it without any Scruple, not fearing that he is ill imploy'd, when he doth not break God's Commands.

N. C.

He may be meanly imploy'd.

C.

That is, he is but a Man, and not yet come to the degree of an Angel.

N. C.

But when others are recreating themſelves, p. 181(as you call it) ours are talking of Heaven.

C.

If it be their choice, and if they do not neglect any neceſſary Buſineſs, nor cenſure others that do not as they do; I have nothing to ſay againſt them. But, as I told you, there are ſo many ſuch like people in all Religions, that you muſt not imagine this is a thing peculiar to yours. And if they think they offend God, if they do otherwiſe, and if they condemn thoſe that now and then innocently recreate themſelves, and ſigh over them as if they were loſt; they trouble the World and themſelves, to ſay no worſe, a great deal too much with their Superſtition.

N. C.

You give liberty to your people even to go to ſee Plays.

C.

Did you ever hear any of our Miniſters commend Plays for a good Divertiſement to their people?

N. C.

No, But they do not diſcommend them, and ſhew how unlawful it is to uſe ſuch paſtimes.

C.

How ſhould they, when they never yet ſaw it prov'd that they may not be lawfully uſed? But they preach againſt all undue and in ordinate uſe of lawful pleaſures, among which they number this for one. And in this buſineſs, they are as faithful as your Miniſters could be, were they in their places, and perhaps a great deal more diſcreet.

p. 182N. C.

Theſe diſcreet men have ſpoil'd Religion.

C.

You ſhould have ſaid indiſcreet men, for that is the truth; who declaim ſo violently againſt innocent things, that they are not at all regarded when they ſpeak againſt things Sinful. Their Zeal is equal againſt things indifferent and things unlawful; and ſo the people eaſily imagine; there is no more reaſon againſt the one than againſt the other. Beſides, they lay Burthens upon men which are not neceſſary, and make Chriſt's Yoak heavier than indeed it is, which is a great Diſcouragement and Hindrance to ſome, making them unwilling to ſubmit themſelves to him. And again, they intangle Religious People in a world of Scruples, which make their lives very uncomfortable.

N. C.

Then your Miniſters, belike, allow your Religious people to go to a Play.

C.

You have put a good word in my mouth; they do I believe, allow it in due meaſure; Incourage them to it they do not; but yet cannot ſay, if they be ask'd the queſtion, that they ſin, if they do.

N. C.

They might tell them, they may be better imploy'd.

C.

What Authority have they to pronounce that in general terms? Sometimes they may, p. 183and ſometime, perhaps, they may not. And beſide this, if we be always bound to do that which is beſt, (which you ſuppoſe) we can never tell whether we pleaſe God or no; but ſhall be ingag'd in endleſs Doubts. For it is an hard matter ſometime to diſcern which is beſt: and one thing may appear beſt, when I conſider ſuch and ſuch things; and another will ſeem beſt, when I reflect upon other matters. And I may verily be perſwaded, looking but at a few things, that this thing is beſt for me to do, which indeed is rather bad, and ſhould not be done. As, I may conceive it beſt to wear no Lace, no Ribbans, no fine Cloth or ſilk, but give all the money I ſpend in ſuch things to the Poor: whereas this may prove very pernicious, though it have a ſhew of great piety; and maintain many poor in idleneſs, that love not Work; and ſpoil the Labors and Trade of many others, who would not live idlely. Farther, how much time muſt we paſs in reſolving which is beſt in every action we do? as whether it be beſt to eat now, or ſtay a while longer; to drink this Cup of Wine which is offered me, or refuſe it; to talk with a Friend or to part with him: to viſit a Neighbour, or to ſtay at home? And while we are deliberating in this faſhion, the thing might be done which we had a mind unto; and we might be return'd to that which p. 184poſſibly we thought would be beſt. It is ſufficient, therefore, that we be well imploy'd; and we ought not to torment our ſelves, and miſpend our time in fears, leſt we have not done the beſt. Let us but conſider, whether no neceſſary Duty toward God or Man, that we are capable of, will be neglected, when we go to divert our ſelves; and then we ſhould not ſpoil our innocent Delights with needleſs Jealouſies.

N. C.

But ſurely this liberty you give, will do people hurt, for they are apt to take too much of it.

C.

Many will take it, whether we give it them or no. But I can aſſure you there are many excellent perſons of extraordinary piety (whom I know) who will not take it, though we give it. Not that they think it an unlawful thing, as you do; but they have no uſe for that Liberty. They are above ſuch pleaſures, and can find imployment or ingenious Divertiſement that is far more ſweet to them. I know others that ſcruple not the thing at all, and yet judge it not ſo expedient for them in their place and relation; and ſo wholly forbear it: which is a far greater Vertue than that which you boaſt of; as much as it is more noble to abſtain from thoſe pleaſures we think lawful, than to be reſtrained only from thoſe which we think are ſinful, I am acquainted with others alſo that p. 185go to Plays, but very rarely, only for a harmleſs Recreation when they are dull, or to accompany a Friend, that earneſtly importunes their company. And theſe, methinks, are as much above thoſe, whoſe Piety you ſo much admire; as it is an harder thing to abſtain from the pleaſures of which we have taſted, and find to be very agreeable to us, than to forbear thoſe, to which we are ſtrangers, and know nothing of. Beſides theſe, I know others that go oftner; and yet I dare not ſay, they are not pious, becauſe I ſee by all their actions that they love God and Man. And I have heard them ſay, that the time they ſpend on that faſhion, doth not hinder them in any Chriſtian Duty that they know of, (and yet they are not negligent to inform themſelves) and is a great deal better ſpent than in talking againſt ones Neighbours, or hearing others rail upon the ill management of Affairs, and find fault with the times, or ſuch like things.

N. C.

None of thoſe things need be done neither.

C.

It is true. But they want company, & they can find little of any fort, where thoſe things are not their entertainment. And it is very conſiderable, that ſuch people paſs for Godly among you, who ſpend many hours in talk of that nature now mention'd, and therefore we would fain know why we may not with better reaſon p. 186call thoſe Godly that go to Plays, and otherways are unreproveable. I ſay with better Reaſon; both becauſe this is at leaſt more innocent (if it be not perfectly blameleſs) than backbiting ones Neighbours; and our Godly do nothing but what they allow, whereas yours do that which they cannot but condemn. I am alſo of the opinion, that our Miniſters ſpeak as often (if not more frequently) againſt the exceſſive uſe of that Recreation; as yours do againſt all Bitterneſs, Wrath, Anger, Backbiting, and Evil-ſpeaking, which are altogether unlawful.

N.C.

I did not think you would have juſtified theſe things ſo far as you do.

C.

You need not have a worſe opinion of me for that, becauſe I do it not to juſtifie my ſelf. For I am one of thoſe that never ſaw a Play in my life, nor ever intend to ſee one. I could wiſh alſo there were not ſo many acted, becauſe they invite men, perhaps, too often to them. But tell me, I pray you, why one may not as well look upon a Picture, as upon the man himſelf whom it repreſents? or, why a Painter ſhould be commended, and a Player condemned?

N.C.

I underſtand you not.

C.

A Play doth but preſent mens Actions before you, as a Picture doth their Faces. And ſince you ſee ſuch things done every day as they p. 187there repreſent, why may you not ſee both the things and the Repreſentation of them, if you have a mind? Nay, tell me why they that do, ſhould not be thought to ſpend their time as well as you, that can hear long Stories of the Biſhops, or of ſuch and ſuch a Parſon, (as you in ſcorn, though very fooliſhly, call our Miniſters; for ſome of them are but Vicars, and you your ſelvs would be glad to hold a good Parſonage, as many Lay-men do) or of ſome of your Neighbors; whoſe Life and (perhaps) domeſtick and private Affairs, you having pry'd into, can be talking of half a day together? This is, in truth, no better than hearing of a Play; only you do not ſee it. That is, you hear the ſame things, that others both hear and ſee acted in a Play; and there is a great deal of Art, and Wit, and Fancie, and you have none.

N.C.

I think our time ought not to be ſpent in either of theſe, as I told you before.

C.

I am well content it ſhould be ſo. But let our people be as Godly as yours, (if this be all you have to ſay againſt them) ſince you confeſs they do both alike, or are not much different. Do not caſt them out of the Houſe of God meerly becauſe they go to a Play-houſe; But hope, that though you are gilt more gloriouſly, yet they may be as good Metal as you. And therefore let them ſtand upon God's Cupboard no leſs than your ſelves.

p. 188N.C.

How come you to talk thus Metaphorically, and indeed obſcurely? For though I gueſs at your meaning, yet it is not ſo plain as you pretend to ſpeak.

C.

A great deal plainer than W. B. ſpeaks; who, in one of the Ten Sermons I told you of, informs us, that God is departed from the Nation, but will return again, becauſe he hath left a great Cup-board of plate behind him. Believe it Chriſtians, ſays he, God hath a very great Cup board of plate in this Nation, Chriſt hath much plate in England, as much as in any Nation in the World; and he will not loſe his plate. But he will not tell us how he is gone, nor when he went, nor what drove him away, nor what his Return will be, no nor what mark there is upon the plate, whereby we may know it. And I doubt you would not be well pleaſed, if I ſhould go about to gueſs what he means by all this.

N.C.

Nothing but what is good, you may be ſure.

C.

Let the King look to that, and get it expounded; for I believe he is concern'd to know, whether the time when God went away was not when he came into England laſt, and ſo whether he muſt not be gone and pack't away, when God returns again to you.

N.C.

I do not like this Diſcourſe.

C.

Do you mean of mine, or of his?

N.C.

Of neither.

p. 189C.

It's well you do not approve of his; but why you ſhould diſlike mine, I know not. For if you your ſelf was a King, you would look upon them as dangerous people, who ſhould ſuppoſe God had forſaken your Kingdom ſince you came to it.

N.C.

He means, perhaps, no more but that God hath deſerted them, who are his people, and once enjoy'd more liberty than now they do.

C.

You cannot excuſe him ſo; for the Title of his Sermon tells you that it relates either to a Soul, or to a Nation. And in the body of the Diſcourſe (if it deſerve that name) he often applies it to this Nation, ſaying, What ſhall we do that God may return to this Nation?

N.C.

He would not have you think that he is quite gone, for he only ſaith, God is much departed, and gone in great meaſure.

C.

True: But his meaning is plainly this; that he would be quite gone, but that he and ſuch like are here. Were but they removed, God would have no dwelling among us. It's they that lay hold on him, and will not let him totally depart. They are his Plate, and as long as that remains, he hath ſomething to ingage his affections, and ſo will not perfectly abandon the Nation. But for all that, he complains ſometimes, as if the Lord had abhorred and caſt us off; telling us, that Chriſt is offended, his Goſpel p. 190Inſtitutions trampled on, and that it is not an eaſie thing to bring him back. And it is very likely, if he had thought of it, he would have told you, That the Plate upon the Cup-board is thrown down, the Plate is batter'd and bruiſed, the Plate is abuſed and ſoil'd. For he tells his Congregation, You are in a ſuffering day, p. 478.

N.C.

What if he had ſaid ſo?

C.

Then, to make the Play compleat, one need only have added this, that the Plate muſt be at leaſt well ſcoured, if not a little beaten.

N.C.

That is, you would have us perſecuted.

C.

Not I; but ſince you fanſie you are perſecuted, when you are not, it would not be amiſs if your Folly were a little chaſtiſed, in order to make you thankful for the Liberty which, even by Law, you enjoy.

N.C.

To me your words are as bad as a Perſecution, which compare good Sermons to a Play.

C.

Why! that Sermon hath more of Fiction in it than many of the Plays. For they are ſometimes grounded upon an Hiſtorical truth: but he entertain'd the people in his Theatre with a pleaſant piece of his own pure Invention; telling a Story of God's Departure, and of his coming back again, & their excelling other men as much as a Cup-board of Plate doth common Furniture and of their remaining here as a pledge of his p. 191Return; when as there is no ſuch thing, but only in his and their Fancy. Only one thing, I obſerve, he very wiſely conceals, leſt it ſhould happen to prove in their conceit a plain Tragedy. For having ſaid, in order to aſſure them of God's Return, that if a man have left Plate and Jewels in his Houſe, he will either come back to them, or ſend for them away to him; this pleaſant Gentleman, ſuppoſing his Hearers (together with his Truth and Worſhip, i. e. their Opinions and way of ſerving God) to be the Plate; would not diſturb their Fancies by telling them that, according to the ſtate of that Reſemblance, God will either return to them, or ſend for them to him, but tells them abſolutely, he will return again to them. Read his words, (p 477.) Such Plate the Lord hath much of here, and he will not loſe his Plate; therefore he will return again, though he may afflict, and afflict ſorely, yet he will return again. And a little after (p. 482.) As ſure as the Morning is after the Night, ſo ſure will God return. His going forth is prepared as the Morning: as certain he will return as the Morning doth. This I muſt needs ſay, was kindly ſaid, and like a Poet; who can invent what he pleaſes, and leave out what makes not for his turn.

N.C.

Methinks you invent what you pleaſe. And ſince you are ſo good at it, I pray let me know what invention you have to excuſe your p. 192Playes, which have ſo much Obſcenity in them.

C.

It's more than I know if they have any at all. And ſhould there be any, aſſure your ſelf, the Ears of thoſe whom we eſteem Godly, are no leſs chaſt than yours, and would not endure it. But did you ever hear that any of our Miniſters ſpoke things ſo nearly approaching to immodeſty as W. B. doth?

N. C.

I ſhall ſtop my ears, if you offer to rake into ſuch matters.

C.

I did not intend it, were you never ſo willing to hear it. I would only have you know, that if I ſhould preſent you with all the filthy Expreſſions and Alluſions that I have met withal in ſuch Books as his, I ſhould make you repent that ever you led me to this Diſcourſe.

N.C.

I cannot conceive that they ſhould fall into ſuch Errors, ſince they are the ſtricteſt ſort of men, as you very well know, and love to preach very plainly.

C.

Now I underſtand what you mean by plain preaching, (which you ſo much talk of) viz. to uſe rude and broad expreſſions. As when W. B. ſaith, a little Eſtate is but a Meſs of Pottage, and a great Eſtate, a great Bowl of Pottage. Have I not hit your meaning?

N.C.

No.

p. 193C.

Then it is very hard to know what it is. And, indeed, the Aſſembly of Divines, when they direct men how to perform their Miniſtry, and among other things, tell them they muſt preach plainly, do not ſpeak plainly themſelves in their Directory, i. e. not ſo as to be underſtood. For theſe are their words, pag. 17. The Servant of Chriſt is to perform his whole Miniſtry, &c. Plainly, that the meaneſt may underſtand, delivering the Truth, not in the enticing words of man's wiſdom; but in Demonſtration of the Spirit and of Power, leſt the Croſs of Chriſt ſhould be made of none effect. Now ſince you acknowledge they cannot propheſy, nor ſpeak with Tongues, nor Demonſtrate their Doctrine by Miracles, as the Apoſtles did; I would gladly know what they mean by the Demonſtration of the Spirit, and of Power. I am apt to think it would puzzle a new Aſſembly, to tell us in plain words, what they intended by that Phraſe.

N.C.

If you were taught of God, as they are, you would eaſily know.

C.

We are all taught of God by the Apoſtles, who have revealed his Mind to us, and that in a Divine manner. And therefore by pretending you are taught of God more than we, when you cannot prove it, you only ſhew that you are taught to Cant in Scripture-phraſe. Pray let's ſee if you underſtand any better, another Direction of theirs, which is, p. 194to preach painfully, not doing the work of the Lord negligently. Whom do you account a painful Preacher.

N. C.

One that takes a great deal of pains.

C.

It is juſt as plain as it was before; and you give me a very good demonſtration how well you are bred to a clear and plain underſtanding of things. But that which you mean, I believe, is, one who preaches often.

N.C.

Yes.

C.

That's the way to do the work of the Lord negligently, as common experience hath taught us.

N. C.

Not, if they take pains to conſider what they ſay.

C.

But you would ſee them ſo often in the Pulpit, that you do not allow them time for that, and other Miniſterial Duties. Hence it is, that upon all occaſions they apply the Holy Scriptures, very impertinently, and interpret them negligently, and alledge that for a Proof, which is nothing to the purpoſe, nay, quite contrary to that which they maintain. Witneſs W. B. who from that place in Hoſea 6.3. (his going forth is prepared as the Morning) would have his people believe, that God will as certainly return to them, as the morning is after night. Whereas that is only ſpoken to the Ten Tribes, and the Prophet doth p. 195not give them an abſolute aſſurance that they ſhall return to their own Land; but only invites them to Repentance, and on that condition promiſes; God in a little time will revive them. Nay, he requires not only that they ſhould begin to know God whom they had forſaken; but that they ſhould continue and perſevere to know him: and then, ſaith he, his going forth is prepared as the Morning, i. e. he was ready to comfort them, as the Morning-light doth thoſe that wait for it; and would come upon them as the Rain, which quickens and calls back the Corn to life, which otherwiſe would have lain dead in the Earth. It is true, W. B. ſaith a little before, if you deſire God ſhould return to you, return you to him; as if there were ſome condition in the buſineſs. But this is only his uſual way of ſaying, and unſaying; of granting promiſes to be Conditional, which he would have his people believe ſhall be performed abſolutely. And, indeed, ſo much he had told them before this, that they might not be diſcomforted, though they did not return to God. Friends, ſaith he (pag. 478.) there is a time when God will deliver his people for his Names ſake, and with a notwithſtanding, i. e. notwithſtanding all their Sins, and notwithſtanding all his Diſpleaſures, as he explains himſelf. Now if you would know when that time is, he tells us, When a people ſuffer for God's p. 196Name's ſake, then God will deliver for his Name's ſake, then God will deliver with a notwithſtanding, And this he would have them believe is their preſent ſtate and condition. How is it with you now? (they are his words) you are in a ſuffering day; but are not all your ſufferings for the Name of Chriſt? Be of good comfort then; though God may be departed, and your City deſtroyed, yet he is not quite gone, but will return again: that is, notwithſtanding all their Sins, he would not leave them. Do you not ſee how confident he is? This it is, for men to fanſy themſelves at the Fathers knee, and to be in his arms, and held in his Embraces, held in his Smiles, (as he ſpeaks, p. 469.) They ſay even what they pleaſe, when they are full of this conceit; and think it is the Oracles of God. They tell you their own mind, and believe it is the mind of the Lord. And when they tell it you in ſuch delicate Expreſſions as theſe, or ſuch rude and groſs ones as thoſe before mentioned; you call it plain Preaching, and powerful Preaching.

N.C.

The Aſſembly told you (if you would have obſerv'd) what plain Preaching is, in that very place which you quoted; where they require Miniſters to forbear unprofitable uſe of unknown Tongues, ſtrange Phraſes, Cadences of Sounds and Words, and to cite Sentences out of Writers ſparingly, though never ſo Elegant.

p. 197C.

By your favour, this is only one part of that which they call plain preaching. For firſt, they ſay a Miniſter muſt preach in the Demonſtration of the Spirit, and of Power: and then it follows, Abſtaining alſo from an unprofitable uſe, &c. So that ſtill we are to ſeek what that Preaching with Power means. And as for this ſort of plain preaching now mention'd, either your Miniſters do not underſtand it, or do not mind it. For who hath more ſtrange Phraſes than W. B.? Or, (to paſs by him, who it's like regards not the Directory) who is there that ſtuffs his Sermons with more Shreds of Authors, and more affects little Sayings and Cadences of Sounds and Words, than T. W. As for his Power in preaching, I ſhewed you before how unable it is to Rouze and Shake an Hypocrite, and bring him to Repentance. For he ſtudies rather to pleaſe him with the enticing words of mans Wiſdom, (though after a poor faſhion) than to make a plain Repreſentation of his Wretched State and Condition to him. If many of thoſe, whom you deſpiſe, had had the handling of him, they would have turn'd his inſide outward, and ſet it before his eyes: They would have ript his very Heart, and diſcovered his Entralls; that he might have beheld how he ſtands divided between God and the World. He ſhould have ſeen how many ſecret Sins he p. 198ſuffers to lurk in his Breaſt: Nay, in what a deteſtable manner he reſerves a kindneſs for many of the vileſt Sins; ſuch as are Covetouſneſs, Oppreſſion, Hard dealing, Unmercifulneſs, Malice, Revenge, Bitterneſs, Wrath, Implacableneſs, and ſuch like; which are the Sins of too many Religious people, that is, of Hypocrites, that are not intire and uniform in their Religion. For an Hypocrite is not a meer Player in Religion, as T. W. fanſies▪ but one that concerns himſelf with a mighty Zeal for ſome good things, and, perhaps, would rather die, than not do them, but hath no Affection for the reſt of Chriſts Commands. He doth not only put on a Garb of piety to deceive others; but there are a number of men that love ſome part of piety, and by that means deceive their own Souls. And let you and I, my good Neighbour, look to it, that we be not of that number.

N. C.

Our Miniſters, you may well think, give us ſuch Cautions. For you muſt acknowledge, as I intimated before, (but you would paſs it by) that they are the ſtricteſt people in the World, and teach us ſo to be.

C.

So were the Phariſees: For that Sect was more curious and exact in many things than any of the reſt. But theſe two things among many others you ſhall obſerve of them. Firſt, that they were very deſirous of p. 199the peoples Favour and Eſteem: the deſire of pleaſing, whom I doubt ſometimes betrays your Preachers into ſuch rude and unhandſome ſpeeches, as I have heard and ſeen from them. And ſecondly, the beſt of them (as appears in S. Paul) were carried with a blind prepoſterous Zeal, even againſt the Truth of Chriſt; which aroſe from their high Eſteem of themſelves, and a Confidence they were very dear to God above all others. I wiſh the like Heat, and Conceit of your infallible ſpirit do not now make you violently oppoſe many things which have Chriſts Stamp upon them. And then you had beſt examine whether you are not ſtrict people, juſt as they are plain Preachers.

N.C.

Your meaning.

C.

I mean, not ſtrict. For as to me thoſe are very obſcure Speakers, and hard to be underſtood, whom you call plain: So it is poſſible thoſe may take too much Liberty, eſpecially in their Tongues, whom you call ſtrict.

N.C.

O, Sir, there are no people ſo ſerious as they.

C.

If you mean that they look ſolemnly, and will not laugh, nor be merry; it is like it's true of ſome of them. But whether this be the effect of their Religion, or their Natural Temper, it is no great matter, for it doth not much commend them. Otherwiſe, p. 200if you mean, that they long conſider things, and come not to a Reſolution till it be late; that they ponder all their words and actions, and weigh well what they are going about; I doubt you will find but few of theſe ſerious perſons. For to me, the Zeal of moſt of you ſeems to make you heady and raſh. I have obſerved, for inſtance, that they are apt preſently to condemn thoſe that are merry; or at leaſt to ſhake their Heads, and expreſs their fears as if they were too vain and light-Spirited. This, Cenſure hath a ſhew of Seriouſneſs, but in truth, proceeds from a want of it. But if you mean, that they are in good earneſt in their Religion: So are many of the Nuns and Friars, and other devout people among the Papiſts, who ſeriouſly ſay their Ave Maries and Pater Noſters, and would not omit them for all the World. And ſo were the Phariſees a very ſerious people, eſpecially upon a Sabbath, and would not neglect their Devotions, in which they were earneſt and long, for any good. And aſſure your ſelf, a man may be ſerious in Religion, and yet be an Hypocrite: That is, he may in good earneſt do many Duties, and love to Pray, and Hear, and Repeat Sermons, and the like; And all the while he may in as good earneſt love the World very much, and (to ſay no more) love the praiſe of men, and Deſire to be better thought of than his Neighbours. In ſhort, he may love Money and p. 201Eſteem, being Covetous and Cenſorious as the Phariſees were.

N.C.

You love to compare us with the Phariſees. Were they ſuch a tender-conſcienc'd people?

C.

Yes indeed were they, in many things. They would rather dy than break the Sabbath: They made a great Scruple of walking above ſo many Paces upon that day, and had infinite Ceremonies and Superſtitions about its Obſervation; of which they were ſo tender, that they could not endure any body elſe ſhould break them. The like Tenderneſs they had about Idolatry, and many other things. But yet they made no bones (as we ſay) of a Widdow's houſe, which they could devour at one bit as ſoon as the Sabbath was done: They were horribly Covetous and deſirous of Riches: They made no Conſcience of Oppreſſion and Extortion: They were monſtrouſly Uncharitable and Proud: They thought themſelves the wiſeſt and the beſt men in the world, and deſpiſed all others, as men that knew not what Religion meant. And leſt you ſhould think they wanted Zeal to increaſe their party, (which they called Love to pure Religion) they compaſſed Sea and Land (as Chriſt tells you) to make a Proſelyte, who, when he was gain'd, became twofold more the Child of Hell than themſelves. Which thing I would have you obſerve, p. 202becauſe it ſhews us that men may be converted from groſs Prophaneneſs to Sins of a more Spiritual and inviſible nature; to Diabolical Pride, and Malice, and rage againſt all that oppoſe their Sect. And therefore you would do well to conſider again, whether there be not many ſuch Converts now that hate us as much as they do Common-Prayer, and are zealous for little elſe but to make men Non-Conformiſts, and to diſgrace thoſe that are not.

N.C.

I did not think you would have pleaded ſo hard for all the Superſtitions and Superſtitious people of your Church. And, to tell you all my mind, I ſhould love your Miniſter better, if he did not ſeem to love the Common-Prayer ſo well. For he reads it with as much Devotion as he expreſſes in his own prayers; and beſides, he maintains the Uſe of it, and the things appointed by it, (as you do) in his private diſcourſes.

C.

In my mind, you ought to like him the better for this, becauſe he is not an Hypocrite, and doth not that to get a Living which he inwardly diſlikes, nor approves that by publick practice, which he diſallows or diſcommends in private talk. And methinks it argues too much inſincerity in your ſelves, that you could be content, nay glad, that another man ſhould do contrary to his Conſcience and Profeſſion; either in uſing thoſe Prayers p. 203which he inwardly diſaffects, or in ſpeaking againſt them (at leaſt ſilently hearing them reproached) when he is convinced of their goodneſs. Above all, I wonder how any honeſt-hearted man can endure him that mutters over the publick Prayers (which he pretends by his uſe of them to like) without any Spirit or life, on purpoſe to diſgrace them and bring them into contempt; at leaſt to make his own prayers better accepted, and preferr'd before them.

N.C.

Well, but what need he juſtifie and maintain the uſe of Common-Prayer, whereever he hears it diſputed of?

C.

He thereby doth but juſtifie himſelf and his own practice. It ſeems you would have him ſtand like a Fool with his Finger in his Mouth, Meerly to Humour you. And withal, you would fain have it thought, that all Conſciencious men are of your mind; if they had but Heart and courage to profeſs it.

N. C.

Well, Neighbour, I think we had beſt leave of this Trade of talking one againſt the other, and finding out one anothers faults; which I ſee is the buſineſs both of you and us.

C.

To ſay the truth, it would be more for the Intereſt of Chriſtianity, if we did. But though you ſeem very deſirous, in a good mood, that we ſhould ceaſe to undermine p. 204each the other, and both joyn together to promote ſound Religion and true piety; yet this Fit holds not long. For commonly you labour nothing more than to overthrow the Religion eſtabliſhed; nay, many of you glory in your hopes of this: as if it were a mighty matter to pull down a Building, and bring things to Ruine; which is the eaſieſt thing in the world; the work of Ignorance and Confidence, and, as one of our Miniſters ſaid, the Paſtime of the Devil, and the Imployment of his Children; of whom we may ſpeak in the Apoſtles words, Rom. 3.16. Deſtruction and miſery are in their wayes, and the way of Peace have they not known. In order to this, you diſgrace the Biſhops; undervalue, if not deſpiſe, all our Miniſters; revile the Common-Prayer; accuſe us of Superſtition, Popery, Anti-chriſtianiſm, and what not? You everywhere divulge and ſpread abroad the Faults of any of the Clergy; and rejoyce to hear or tell a Story of any drunken Parſon, as you are wont to call the beſt of them by way of deriſion. Nay, you have more Favour and kindneſs for wild and Phanatick people, who undermine the very Foundation of Religion, than for us.

N.C.

No more of this, I pray you.

p. 205C.

I ſhould rather ſay to you, Let us hear no more of this: and I ſhall rejoyce and be ready to correſpond with you in all offices of Love and Kindneſs.

N.C.

Belike, you can love one of our way.

C.

Yes, very heartily. And therefore I would not have you expound any thing I have ſaid, as if it were meant againſt the humble, the modeſt, the charitable, and ſuch as are afflicted and mourn for our preſent Differences: but as intended to check the pride and preſumption of many among you, who, though full of Folly, think they know the Mind of God more than all the Biſhops and Prieſts in the World; and by their Confidence and bold pretence of the Spirit would over-bear all ſober Reaſon, and impoſe all their fond Opinions on us; making the poor people believe that they are God's only Favourites, and fit to teach and rule the whole Nation. Theſe we cannot well ſuffer to ſtrut as they do, and not endeavour to diſplay their Vanity: Nor can we approve of thoſe who for the ſake of their party, are content to diſſemble it, if not favour their impudent pretences. For we know well enough how like they are in many things to S. Paul's formal Chriſtians; eſpecially in this one part of their Character, that they are Deſpiſers of thoſe that are good. A thing I would by no means p. 206be guilty of, and therefore hope you will not ſuſpect my eſteem of you.

N. C.

I am glad you are ſo charitably diſpoſed; and am the more pleaſed, becauſe I thought you had look'd upon us with the greateſt Deteſtation in the world.

C.

I have already told you, that we do not think you all of a kind, though now you flock together. There are ſome (of your Miniſters for inſtance) who I believe are of an humble Spirit, quiet and peaceable in the Land, deſiring Unity and Accord, grieving for the Breach of it; and are ſo far from condemning thoſe, that are ſatisfied to do what the Law requires, that they are ſorry they cannot contribute to the common Peace by doing the ſame. Upon which account they go as far as they can, and conform to publick Order in all things wherein they are ſatisfied, and are tender of breaking any Laws; and when they cannot obey them, do not rail upon them and their Makers, but ſilently and without any noiſe omit to do what they enjoyn. Theſe we cannot but love; and are ſorry that in ſo great a number we can find ſo few of this good temper. For there is a ſecond ſort (with which the Kingdom ſwarms) who are of an haughty Humour, of a furious and factious Diſpoſition, puft up with a conceit of their Gifts to ſuch a height, that they will ſcarce allow any man to know any thing of p. 207God, who is not of their Party. Sowr and crabbed they are above all other men, croſs and peeviſh beyond all expreſſion: they never ſpeak well of our Governors or Government; they are always reviling Biſhops and Common-Prayer; and talking like men inſpired: it is an eaſy matter for them to diſparage all our Miniſtery, and beget an ill opinion of them in the minds of their credulous Followers. Which we conceiving to be their Buſineſs, no wonder if our men ſeek to preſerve themſelves, not by diſgracing, but by rightly repreſenting them to the World. They ought not to betray the Church wherein they live, by a baſe and unworthy Silence. Even the meaneſt Child of us ought to ſpeak, when you are about to kill our Mother. Your long Nails wherewith you now ſcratch her Face muſt be ſhewn the people; who ſee them not, while they behold your hands lifted up to Heaven. But beſides theſe two, there is a third ſort between both, who are diſſatisfied only with a few things; allow our Miniſters to be good men, and wiſh for Peace, but yet for private reſpects hold fair correſpondence with the Furies now named; keep up the Separation; hold Conventicles; ſuffer the people, without reproof, to be fierce and violent againſt us; connive at a great many of their falſe and abſurd Opinions; let them alone in their rude and inſolent behaviour; p. 208take not ſufficient care to inſtruct them in the Truth, to bring them to a modeſt and peaceable temper; In ſhort, to qualifie them for Compliance with us. Do not ſmile at the word, for I can demonſtrate it might ſoon be brought about, if they pleaſed.

N. C.

How, I Pray? Can you do more than all the men in the Kingdom?

C.

Let them perſwade their people but to be of their mind, and the buſineſs is done.

N. C.

Do you think they do not?

C.

No, I warrant you. If they did, the people would conform, though they cannot. For that which keeps this ſort of Miniſters from Conforming, is not any thing to which the people are bound, but ſomething particularly required of them.

N. C.

You have revealed a Secret to me.

C.

It is eaſy for any body to find out, that hath a mind to it. There being nothing plainer than this, that they would have read thoſe prayers which I would have you hear, if ſomething elſe had not been in the way, which you are not concerned in; and that is, renouncing the Covenant. Let them then but perſwade you to do all that they can do themſelves, and in order to that give you Reaſons why it ſhould be done; and then I may hope to ſee you and I go to the ſame p. 209Church together: And for them that do not ſtand upon the Covenant, (for there are ſome ſuch) they ha… the greater reaſon to exhort you to come, nay, to come themſelves, and bring you along with them. But leſt they ſhould not do their duty, give me leave to ſpeak to you in thoſe very words which they have writ to others; and, if you think they have now any weight in them, (as I believe you once thought they had) we ſhall not be long ſeparated.

N. C.

What have they writ?

C.

In a Book call'd A Vindication of the Presbyterial Government, &c. You will find a ſpeech of your Miniſters and Elders in the Province of London, to thoſe that had left their Communion, and ſtood in divided Congregations from them: Which if it had any force then in your opinion, ought to prevail with you now to come and joyn your ſelf again to us, whom you have forſaken. I will cite you ſome Paſſages of it in their own words. And let me begin with thoſe which you find pag. 130. in a diſtinct Character, (as the ſtrength, I ſuppoſe, of what they had to ſay) If we be a Church of Chriſt, and Chriſt hold Communion with us; why do you ſeparate from us? If we be the Body of Chriſt, do not they that ſeparate from the Body, ſeparate from the Head alſo? We are loath to ſpeak any thing that may offend you; yet we intreat p. 210you to conſider, that if the Apoſtle call thoſe Diviſions of the Church of Corinth, (wherein Chriſtians did … ſeparate into divers formed Congregations of ſeveral Communion in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper) Schiſms, 1 Cor. 1.10. may not your Seceſſion from us, and profeſſing you cannot joyn with us as Members, and ſetting up Congregations of another Communion, be more properly called Schiſm? Thus they plead for Unity and Uniformity in thoſe dayes, (1649.) And we ſay the very ſame now. Be juſt, I beſeech you; and either pronounce that they had no reaſon on their ſide when they wrote thoſe words, or that we have reaſon too, who uſe the ſame to you. Hear alſo what they ſay a little after, and think one of us ſpeaks it to you. You gather Churches out of our Churches, and you ſet up Churches in an oppoſite way to our Churches; and all this you do voluntarily, and unwarrantably, not having any ſufficient cauſe for it. For you acknowledge us to be the true Churches of Jeſus Chriſt, and Churches with which Chriſt holds Communion. This, I dare ſay, is the Judgment of every true Fresbyterian, that the Church of England is a true Member of Chriſt's Body, and that Chriſt holds Communion with her, and hath not cut her off (becauſe of any Ceremonies ſhe uſes) from him the Head of the Church. If ſo, conſider, I beſeech you, as p. 211they intreat their Brethren of the Separation, How dare you refuſe to hold Communion with thoſe, whom Chriſt Jeſus holds Communion withall? How can you with a ſafe Conſcience thus ſeparate your ſelves from thoſe who are not ſeparated from Chriſt? Is it nothing to make a Schiſm in his Body? Do you not rend your ſelves from him, when you thus rend your ſelves from it? Think ſeriouſly on it, before you ſleep; that you may, at leaſt in purpoſe and reſolution, preſently unite your ſelf to us, from whom you have departed.

N. C.

But I am told that every Separation is not a Schiſm.

C.

To this they anſwer in that Book, and pray mind it: The godly Learned ſay, that every unjuſt and raſh Separation from a true Church (that is, when there is no juſt, or at leaſt no ſufficient cauſe of the Separation) is a Schiſm: And that there is a negative and a poſitive Schiſm. The former is, when men do peaceably and quietly draw from Communion with a Church, not making a head againſt that Church, from which they are departed: The other is, when perſons ſo withdrawing do conſociate and withdraw themſelves into a diſtinct and oppoſite Body, ſetting up a Church againſt a Church; (which let me tell you by the way, is your Caſe, my good Neighbour) which Camero calls a Schiſm by way of eminency; and p. 212farther tells us, there are four Cauſes, that make a ſeparation, from a Church, lawful. Firſt, when they that ſeparate are grievouſly and intolerably perſecuted: Secondly, when the Church they ſeparate from is Heretical: Thirdly, when it is Idolatrous: Fourthly, when it is the Seat of Antichriſt. And where none of theſe four are found, there the Separation is inſufficient, and Schiſm. Now we are fully aſſured, that none of theſe four Cauſes can be juſtly charged upon our Congregations; therefore you muſt not be diſpleaſed with us, but with your ſelves, if we blame you as guilty of poſitive Schiſm. What ſay you now, my Neighbour? Was this good Doctrine then, or no? If it was, it is ſo ſtill; and I beſeech you, make good uſe of it.

N. C.

Some think it is a ſufficient cauſe to ſeparate, in that there are ſuch ſinful mixtures tolerated among you; and that your Congregations are miſcellaneous Companies of all Gatherings, and all ſorts are admitted even to Sacramental Communion.

C.

That's the very Objection which your Miniſters and Elders ſaw framed againſt them by the Separatiſts. And what they anſwer to them; we return to you. Firſt, That this Charge is not true; the Rule of the Church of England being as full and ſtrict for Church-Members, that ſhall come to Communion, as that of the Aſſembly there cited, p. 123pag. 133. which is this: That they muſt be viſible Sainst, ſuch as, being of age, do profeſs Faith in Chriſt, and obedience to Chriſt, according to the Rules of Faith aud Life, taught by Chriſt and his appoſtles. Secondly, Suppoſe there were ſome ſinful Mixtures (ſay they) at our Sacraments; yet we conceive this is not a ſufficient ground of a Negative, much leſs of a Poſitive Separation. The Learned Author forementioned tells us, that Corruption in Manners crept into a Church, is not a ſufficient cauſe of Separation from it. This he proves from Math. 23.2, 3. and he adds alſo this Reaſon for it; Becauſe in what Church ſoever there is Purity of Doctrine, there God hath his Church, though overwhelm'd with Scandals. And therefore whoſoever ſeparates from ſuch an Aſſembly, ſeparates from the place where God hath his Church; which is raſh and unwarrantable. The Church of Corinth had ſuch a profane Mixture at their Sacrament, as we believe few (if any) of our Congregations can be charged withal; and yet the Apoſtle doth not perſwade the Godly party to ſeparate, much leſs to gather a Church out of a Church.

N. C.

What do you tell me of the Doctrine of a Forreign Divine?

C.

They have made it theirs, by approving what he ſays, in their Book. And beſides they tell you, there were many Godly and Learned Non-conformiſts of the laſt Age, that were perſwaded p. 214in their Conſcience they could not hold Communion with the Church of England in receiving the Sacrament kneeling, without Sin; yet did they not ſeparate from her. Indeed, in that particular act they withdrew, but yet ſo, as that they held Communion with her in the reſt; being far from a Negative, much more from a Poſitive Separation from her. Nay, ſome of them, (mind the words) even then, when our Churches were full of ſinful Mixtures, with great Zeal and Learning defended them ſo far, as to write againſt thoſe that did ſeparate from them. who theſe Good and Learned men were, they tell you in the Margin; Mr. Cartwright, Mr. Dod, Mr. Hilderſham, Mr. Bradſhaw, Mr. Ball.

N. C.

Then we ſhall communicate with men in their ſin…; and we muſt not be led to that by the greateſt Examples.

C.

To prevent that, they will adviſe you, that if any Brother offend you; you are not to ſeparate from him, (for this is not the way to gain, but to deſtroy his Soul;) but to tell him of it privately, and in an orderly way to bring it to the Church. And when you have done your Duty, you have freed your Soul, and may ſafely and comfortably communicate in that Church without Sin.

N. C.

I perceive you are read in our Writers. And, trely, you have now told me ſo much from them, that I ſhall not have ſo p. 215hard an opinion of you, as I had before. And I hope this will preſerve me from being guilty of the ſin of Schiſm, becauſe the Nature of that conſiſts in an open breach of Chriſtian Love.

C.

This will not ſerve your turn, but you muſt come and joyn in Communion with us again. For they tell you, that as he, who denies a Fundamental Article of the Faith, is guilty of Hereſie, though he add not Obſtinacy thereto, to make him an Heretick: So he that doth unwarrantably ſeparate from the true Church is truly guilty of Schiſm, though he add not Uncharitableneſs thereunto, to denominate him a compleat Schiſmatick. You may read the words, if you will, pag. 137. And afterward they tell you that to make a Rupture in the Body of Chriſt, and to divide Church from Church, and to ſet up Church againſt Church, and to gather Churches out of true Churches, and becauſe we differ in ſome things, therefore to hold Church-Communion in nothing; this, we think, hath no warrant out of the word of God, and will introduce all manner of confuſion in Churches and Families; and not onelyonly diſturb, but in a little time deſtroy the power of Godlineſs, Purity of Religion, Peace of Chriſtians, and ſet open a wide Gap to bring in Atheiſm, Popery, Hereſie, and all manner of wickedneſs. Thus they. And how faſt all this is a doing by your means, who now will have no Communion p. 216with us in any thing, becauſe we differ in ſome things, is apparent to all the world. For the love of God, and of the Church, nay, of your own Families, conſider of it in time, and repent; that ſo they may not be brought to utter Confuſion, but the Gap may be ſtopt, which you have opened too wide already, to Atheiſm, Irreligion, and all the reſt of the Wickedneſs which comes, powring in it ſelf upon us. Do not continue that Separation any longer, which you have raſhly begun; leſt you be found guilty of that very thing your ſelves, which you condemned ſo much in others, and profeſs is by all good men to be abhorred. Read what I have now ſaid over and over again, and ſeriouſly lay it to heart: leſt your own Books be opened at the day of Judgement, and Sentence be pronounced againſt you out of them. Nay, deſire your Miniſters to read it, and to expound the reaſon to you, why they ſhould ſsparate now more than Mr. Dod, Mr. Hilderſham, Mr. Ball, and ſuch like, did heretofore. Intreat them to let you know, how they excuſe thewſelves from the guilt, not only of withdrawing themſelves from our Communion, (which they call Negative Schiſm;) but alſo of making an head againſt us, and drawing themſelves into a diſtinct and oppoſite Body, and ſetting up a Church againſt a Church which they call Poſitive, and Schiſm by way of Eminency, Ask them which of the p. 217four Cauſes of Separation they alledge to make their Departures from us neceſſary: What we have done that ſhould make it unlawful for them to communicate with us; or rather, How we have ſeparated our ſelves from Jeſus Chriſt, and made him diſown us. If they be not able to give you very good ſatisfaction in this, and in all the reſt, I hope, you ſee what you are to do, according to their own Advice and Counſel.

N. C.

I ſuppoſe they will ſay that they are perſecuted, which will juſtifie their ſeparation.

C.

I cannot imagine what they ſhould pretend, unleſs it be this. But bid them ſhew you what hath befalen them, that ſhould deſerve that name. And likewiſe ſhew, that the Perſecution is grievous, nay, intolerable, (for elſe they have told you it will not warrant a Separation:) and one thing more deſire to learn of them, which is, whether thoſe things that any of them have ſuffered, be not the Effect and Puniſhment of their ſeparation, and not the Cauſe of it. As for any Reſtraints the Law hath laid upon their Liberty, they are nothing comparable to thoſe that were laid on us, when they were in Power: and yet they will take it ill if they ſhould be called Perſecutors. For if you look into an Ordinance of Parliament of 11. Auguſt 1645. for putting in execution the Directory, you will p. 218find theſe words: That if any perſon or perſons whatſoever, ſhall at any time or times, hereafter, uſe, or cauſe the aforeſaid Book of Common-Prayer to be uſed in any Church, Chappel, or publick place of Worſhip, or in any private place or Family, within the Kingdom of England, or the Dominion of Wales, or Port and …own of Berwick; every ſuch perſon ſo offending …herein, ſhall for the firſt offence, pay the ſum …f five pounds, of lawful Engliſh money; for the ſecond offence, ten pounds; and for the third, ſhall ſuffer one whole year Impriſonment, without Bail or Mainpriſe. Can you name me any Law now extant ſo ſevere and cruel, as this was? Do we abridge the pooreſt Tradeſman ſo much of his liberty, as then they would have abridg'd all the Nobles in the Land, nay (for any thing I ſee) the KING himſelf, at leaſt his Family, which were forbid the uſe of Common-Prayer under ſuch great Penalties? Are you not all allow'd to worſhip God, juſt as you pleaſe your ſelves in your own Families? Nay, may not ſome of your Neighbours joyn with you, if you and they be ſo minded? For ſhame do not complain of Perſecution, when you are ſo kindly uſed, who endeavoured in ſuch a manner to oppreſs others. And bluſh to think that you ſhould ſeparate upon this account; which yet is all that you can have the face to pretend, to excuſe the Schiſm you have made. The Common-Prayer p. 219you ſee was never impoſed with ſuch rigor, as your Directory was▪ And whereas you now take what liberty you liſt to preach, and Write, and print what you think good againſt the Common-Prayer; it was then ordain'd, that none ſhould do ſo againſt the Directory, or any thing contain'd therein, (which is a great deal more; and in caſe any man was ſo bold, he was to forfeit ſuch a ſum of money, as ſhould be thought fit to be impoſed on him, by thoſe before whom he had his Trial; provided it was not leſs than five pounds, nor more than fifty. Who ſhould try him no body knew; but he was ſure to meet with little favour, if the Directory-men met with him, and were to handle him; who would tolerate no Diſſenters from them. And their reaſon is given, (in the London Miniſters Letter to the Aſſembly) becauſe they were bound by the Covenant to extirpate all Sciſm; and to indeavour the Lord ſhould be one, and his Name one, in the Three Kingdoms, i. e. that all ſhould ſubſcribe to the Directory. And there is another thing which to me ſeems ſomething hard, (I am ſure you ought to judg it ſo,) viz. an Ordinance of 2. June 1646. requiring, that all people who were come to reſide in the Parliament-Quarters, ſhould take the National League and Covenant, and the Negative Oath, notwithſtanding any Articles that had been made by the Souldiery. Why ſhould p. 220you complain of the late Oxford Act (as it is commonly called) who could endure heretofore that men ſhould be uſed ſo ſeverely? Compare that and this Ordinance together, and tell me which of them is moſt moderate; that which baniſhed men out of many Counties, or that which only prohibits their near habitation to a Town or two? that which made void the promiſes which their own Officers had made, or that which was againſt no ingagements at all? I wiſh you would conſider theſe things, with a great many more of like nature; for, though your prejudices are ſtrong, I hope ſometime they may ſerve to convince you. And the mention of the Covenant, juſt now brings a conſiderable thing to my mind, which if it would not be tedious, I would willingly propound, and deſire you to enquire about it.

N. C.

I pray, ſay on; for your diſcourſe begins to be pleaſant to me.

C.

I wiſh you would ask your Miniſters, why they themſelves heretofore not onelyonly approved of certain Ceremonies in the Worſhip of God, but alſo were well pleaſed they ſhould be enjoyn'd; and yet now cry out upon our Ceremonies, or, at leaſt, would have them left at liberty.

N. C.

What Ceremonies and Worſhip do you mean?

p. 221C.

Was not the taking of the Solemn League and Covenant a piece of Religion?

N. C.

Yes; it was an Oath.

C.

Read then an Ordinance of 2. Febr. 1643. ☜and you will find it is ordain'd, among other things, that during the time that the Miniſter read the whole Covenant to the people, the whole Congregation ſhould be uncovered: There is one Ceremony, which now you will by no means indure ſhould be impoſed on you at the hearing of Sermons. Then, at the end of the Reading it, they appoint that all ſhall take it ſtanding: There is another Ceremony. And, laſtly, that they ſhould lift up their right hand bare: That's another, if not two Ceremonies more. For they enjoyn them to lift up the right Hand, not the left; and that it ſhould be bare, not covered with a Glove. And this very Ordinance touching the Manner of the taking the Covenant, they deſired might be confirm'd by Act of Parliament; as you may ſee in the Propoſitions ſent to his Majeſty at Newcaſtle, July 11. 1646. Pray tell me, if you can, or elſe make enquiry, why they did not leave men to their way and manner of doing this Religious Act; ſeeing they would have no body tied to a Poſture now in the Worſhip of God.

N. C.

I will enquire; For I know no reaſon of it.

p. 222C.

If you pleaſe, ask them another thing; which is, why they do not take their own Advice which they give about the Covenant? For if they would, the Covenant need not keep them from doing that, which otherwiſe many of them profeſs they could do.

N. C.

You muſt be at the pains to interpret your ſelf; for I know not what you intend.

C.

The Parliament, in the Ordinance now mentioned, deſire the Aſſembly of Divines to prepare an Exhortation for the better taking of the Covenant, which ſhould be read together with it. Now in that Exhortation (which was voted to be printed, Febr. 9. 1643.) the Aſſembly intreat the Epiſcopal Clergy, (who ſaid they could not take the Covenant, becauſe it was againſt their former Oaths) to conſider this, which is the thing I would have them conſider now; That if any Oath be found, into which any Miniſter or others have entred, not warranted by the Law of God and the Land, in this Caſe they muſt teach themſelves and others, that ſuch Oaths call for Repentance, not Pertinacy in them.

N. C.

I know what you are going to infer. But they will not yield that this Covenant was unwarrantable by the Laws of God and the Land, and therefore they will not repent of it.

p. 223C.

It was plainly againſt the Laws of the Land, and thoſe reaſonable and good Laws: from whence I conclude, it was againſt the Laws of God, which would have us obey humane Laws, (that do not contradict them) and not combine together to deſtroy them.

N. C.

They will never grant, it was againſt the Laws of the Land: and I think you cannot prove it.

C.

Did they not Covenant to endeavour to preſerve the Reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine, Worſhip, Diſcipline and Government?

N. C.

Yes, its the firſt Barnch of the Covenant.

C.

And did they not next of all Covenant to indeavour to reform Religion in theſe Kingdoms of England and Ireland, in all Points according to the Examples of the beſt Reformed Churches?

N. C.

Yes.

C.

Then they were bound to reform us according to the Pattern of Scotland: For that Church muſt needs be the beſt Reformed, which needs no Reformation; as it ſeems the Church of Scotland did not, being to be preſerved by them juſt as it was.

N. C.

What of all this?

C.

Then I will prove they bound themſelves in an Oath againſt the Laws of the Land. For our Laws make the King Supreme p. 224Governour over all perſons and in all cauſes: But the Presbyterial Government as it was in Scotland, (and was intended to be here) though it allow the King to be Supreme Governour over all perſons, (as they are his Subjects) yet will not ſubject all Cauſes to his Government; becauſe Chriſt according to the Diſcipline, is the only ſpiritual King and Governour over his Kirk. As much as to ſay, they are ſubject onelyonly to Chriſt in ſome things.

N. C.

This is onelyonly a Collection which you make from ſeveral things compared together, in which you may be deceived. Sure they never intended to ſet up ſuch a Government here.

C.

That you may not be left therefore to my uncertain Reaſonings (as you will eſteem them) in this particular; You may be ſatisfied about the Mind of the Aſſembly, if you be at all acquainted with the Hiſtory of the late Times. By that I am informed, they intended to bring the ſame Government among us that was in Scotland: And, Secondly, they thought the Parliament was obliged to ſet it up by vertue of the Covenant. When theſe two things are proved, I believe you will be of my mind, that they took an Oath againſt the Laws, and therefore ought not to perſiſt in it, but repent of it.

p. 225N. C.

I ſhall be glad to hear them proved.

C.

You muſt know then that the Parliament declared for Presbyterial Government, and paſſed moſt of the particulars brought them from the Aſſembly without any material alteration; ſaving the point of Commiſſioners; as they tell us in a Declaration of April 17. 1646.

N. C.

What's the reaſon it was not ſet up?

C.

Have patience, and I will tell you. Theſe ugly Commiſſioners ſtood in the way, which the Aſſembly would not admit of; as the Parliament would not admit of their Arbitrary Government.

N. C.

Why do you call it ſo.

C.

The title of the Declaration tells you, that the intention of it is, among other things, to ſecure the people againſt all Arbitrary Government, viz. in the Church, which they ſpoke of before. But that you may be ſure of it; they let you know, when they come to that part of it, which concerns Church-Government, that the Presbytery challeng'd an Arbitrary Power, which they could not grant. The reaſon was, becauſe they would have ſet up ten thouſand Judicatories within the Kingdom which ſhould have had a ſupreme Authority over us in many things. And this was demanded in ſuch a way (as they proceed to tell us) as is not conſiſtent with the Fundamental Laws and Government p. 226of the ſame, and by neceſſary conſequence excluding the Power of the Parliament of England in the exerciſe of that Juriſdiction. This was the very cauſe (as they farther inform us) why they had ſettled no Government ſince their ſitting, becauſe they could not ſubject themſelves and the People of the Land, to ſo vaſt a power as the Presbytery challeng'd; which, they tell us a little after, would have been for the Civil Magiſtrate to part with ſome of his Power out of his hands. Now before we go any farther, I pray tell me, who was the ſupreme Civil Magiſtrate then, but the KING? And how will you excuſe theſe men from going about to rob him of a part of his Power, and wreſt it out of his hands?

N. C.

Sure they did not Covenant to do this.

C.

We ſhall try that by and by. But that you may better know how they meant to go to work, and to over rule the Supreme Power in many Cauſes; you muſt underſtand theſe things. That it being reſolved by both Houſes, that all perſons guilty of notorious and ſcandalous Offences ſhould be ſuſpended from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper; the Aſſembly likewiſe reſolved, that theſe two Powers lay in the Elderſhip or Presbytery, and only in them. Firſt, the Power of judging and decluring what are ſuch notorious and ſcandalous offences, for which perſons guilty page missing p. 229Power out of his hands, which is contrary to the Law of God: And therefore they ought not any longer to hold themſelves bound by it; but rather ſhould repent, as they adviſe others to do in that caſe. To ſum up the whole buſineſs. An Oath that is not warranted by the Laws of God and the Land ought to be repented of. Your Miniſters took an Oath not warranted by the Laws of God and the Land, but contrary to them. Therefore they ought to repent of it. The former Propoſition, is their own. The latter is partly theirs, and partly the Commons of England. For your Miniſters expounded the Covenant as it obliged them to ſet up the Presbytery in an abſolute Power; and the Commons declared the exerciſe of ſuch a power to be againſt the Fundamental Laws of the Realm, and the Authority of the Supreme Magiſtrate. (I might add, but that you little regard, that His MAJESTY in his Proclamation declared it an unwarrantable Oath, October 9, 1643.) And therefore do you and they ſee, whether the Concluſion do not unavoidably follow, and make a good uſe of it, I beſeech you before it be too late.

N. C.

As Paul ſaid to Agrippa, that he almoſt perſwaded him to be a Chriſtian; ſo I muſt ſay to you, that you almoſt perſwade me to be a Conformiſt, and come to Church.

p. 230C.

I wiſh, as S. Paul ſaid then, that you were not almoſt, but altogether, ſuch as I am. I mean, that you would not only come thither, but with ſuch reverence and ſeriouſneſs as becomes the Service of God. But to come and ſit, or …oll, or look about, or whiſper and talk, as many do, methinks is as bad as ſtaying away. Nay, it ſeems to be far worſe, becauſe it is a more publick Affront to God, even while we are in his preſence; an open Scorn of his Worſhip, and a Contempt of all his people that devoutly joyn in it. Therefore, for the love of God, never involve your ſelf in this guilt, as I ſee too many, even of the Great ones do; who ſhew not half ſo much Reverence before God in the time of Divine Service, as the people do before the meaneſt Juſtice of Peace, Nay, in his abſence, before his Country-Clerk. Lord, lay not this Sin to their charge. And as I would deſire you to pray with Reverence, ſo to hear the Sermon alſo with due Attention, and without any Prejudice or Paſſion. Lay aſide all naughty and corrupt Affections, which blind the Underſtanding, and will not let it diſcern the cleareſt Truth. Witneſs the Phariſees, who could not ſee the moſt neceſſary things concerning everlaſting Salvation, though manifeſtly delivered in Holy Scripture, and plainly proved by many illuſtrious Miracles: and all becauſe they were Covetous, Proud, Self-conceited, p. 231and loved the praiſe of men more than the praiſe of God. For what was more clearly ſet down in their Books than the time of Chriſts Coming; together with the Characters or Marks of his Perſon, when he ſhould appear? And what was more neceſſary to be known than him when he came among them? In what were they ſo much concern'd every way, as to receive and acknowledge him? And yet, notwithſtanding, they could not ſee him, even when they ſaw him. They reſiſted the Holy Ghoſt it ſelf, in the Prophets both old and new. They could not endure ſuch a Chriſt as taught them to be humble, and pure in heart, and heavenly-minded, and meek, and merciful, and peaceable, and patient under all injuries, and obedient to Government; and that would not oppoſe Caeſar, and advance them to Power and Dominion. From whence you ſee how neceſſary it is to follow the Counſel of S. Peter, 1. Ep. 2.1, 2. and laying aſide all Malice, and all Guile, and all Hypocriſies, and Envies, and Evilſpeakings; as a new-born Babe deſire the ſincere Milk of the Word, that you may grow thereby. Do not think I take too much upon me thus to inſtruct you. I do but repeat what I have heard from ſome of my Inſtructers. And our Miniſter told us the other day, that ſome render the laſt words thus: Deſire the reaſonable (or rational) Milk, without p. 232mixture; it being the ſame expreſſion, which is in Rom. 21.1. where we read of reaſonable ſervice. But that I find is a thing few care for: As little reaſon as you pleaſe will ſuffice them. So their Fancies or their Affections be but tickled, they care not whether it be with Reaſon or without. Any little Toy takes them; and if the Expoſition of Scripture which is given them be but pretty, they never mind whether it be ſolid or no. Now this, I have been inſtructed, proceeds from a Vicious Affection; from a lazy, ſlothful, diſpoſition of mind; from a lothneſs to be at any pains to underſtand the Truth; nay, ſometimes from all evil Affections; from a love of the Fleſh and Senſual things, and a too great ſtrangeneſs and averſneſs to all the Concerns of a Soul. And aſſure your ſelf, there is no ignorance ſo black and dark as this which proceeds from corrupt affections. That which is the effect only of Weakneſs of Parts; want of Opportunity, ill Education, or bad Inſtruction, may find ſome help, and be in great meaſure cured. A man of very mean natural parts, that hath an honeſt. Heart, may come to underſtand much. But this that I am ſpeaking of, being choſen and affected, is in a manner incurable. Men love it and are concerned to maintain it; and will not underſtand the cleareſt Reaſons, but ſhut their eyes againſt them. And therefore p. 233if you would profit by any Sermon, come with a free and unprejudiced mind, with an upright and true heart; and ſo you may be convinced of your errors, or grow in wiſdom and underſtanding, and, finally, think your ſelf as happy in our Company, as any where elſe.

N. C.

You ſpeak very reaſonably and diſcreetly. But if I ſtill remain unſatisfied, I hope you will love me, as one Neighbour ſhould do another.

C.

Make no doubt of it. And the greateſt act of Charity I can expreſs to you is, to adviſe you how you ſhould behave your ſelves while you continue to diſſent from us. You were wont in the beginning of theſe Differences, to call your ſelves the weak Brethren, This was the Language of your Fore-fathers, who begg'd that they might be forborn, and treated gently, and, like the tender Children of Jacob, driven no faſter, than they were able to go. But now none drive ſo furiouſly, as you. Nothing will ſerve your turn but to be the foremoſt, I mean, the Leaders of all: You would be Maſters of the Law; you would Rule and Govern, as if you were the wiſeſt and ſtrongeſt Chriſtians, nay, illuminated with a more ſingular degree of Knowledge, than any body elſe. It doth not ſuffice you to let alone what is enjoyn'd you, but you arreign it before all your Neighbours; you p. 234judge and condemn it; nay, you thwart and oppoſe it; you would fain do Execution upon it, and having pull'd it down, ſet up your own Fancies in the room. And ſo far hath this Confidence carried you, that you would fain ſet up your Fancies in all the World, if you were able. For you know very well where you invited all Reformed Churches, and that in a way of Prayer, that they would aſſociate themſelves with you in your, or the like Covenant. I muſt deſire you therefore, as you love your own and the Kingdom's Peace, to have a lower opinion of your ſelves and Gifts; and ſo to abate of your Confidence, and your Forwardneſs and violence to impoſe upon others. Set not ſo high an eſteem upon your own Models and Draughts of Government. Be content to obey, rather than rule. Let nothing of Pride, Ambition, Vain-glory, and love of popular Eſteem, bear ſway in your hearts. And oh that we could ſee all theſe evil ſpirits caſt out by your Prayers and Faſtings! Approve your ſelves to be Tender-conſcienced, by your tender care in all your actions to be void of offence to God and Man. Shew that nothing in the world but your fear to diſpleaſe God keeps you from us, by your humble carriage; by your ſpeaking well of all, as near as you can; by ſaying nothing againſt the eſtabliſh'd Religion; by honouring your Superiours; by p. 235meeting very ſecretly, (if you muſt needs aſſemble in greater Companies, than the Law allows) that ſo you may not give a publick Offence. And I beſeech you never meet in time of Divine Service. Pray your Miniſters to ſearch and examine, as much as they can, whether none of their Auditors come to them only out of humor and love of Novelty; and that they would exhort all that can, to go to the publick Ordinances. For which end let them acknowledge in plain terms, that the Worſhip of God among us is lawful, and far from being Anti-chriſtian; that there are many godly men among us; that they themſelves have received benefit from their Labours. Let them expreſs their ſorrow, that they are not enlightned enough to ſee the lawfulneſs of uſing ſome Ceremonies; and deſire the people not to follow their Example without their Reaſons. Speak well of your Governours, and reprove thoſe that do not. Believe not Rumors and Reports, and take care you be not the ſpreaders of them. Keep a day of Humiliation for this Sin among others, that you have been the Authors or Abettors of ſo many falſe and ſcandalous Stories concerning the Biſhops and others. And do not excuſe your ſelves by ſaying that ſome Stories are true; for I can demonſtrate, if need be, that it is not the manner of your people to examine carefully whether things be true or no, p. 236before they divulge them, but preſently they run away when they have got a Tale by the end, and carry it about the Town. By which means, right Reverend perſons (which is a horrid ſhame) have been openly charg'd in publick Aſſemblies with things notoriouſly falſe, without any ground at all. All which proceeds from your unmortified Paſſions of Anger, Hatred, and Uncharitableneſs; which make you haſtily believe any thing that's bad of thoſe you do not like. Let theſe things therefore be bewailed and reformed: As alſo your wreſting of the Scripture, and bold, but vain, pretences to the Spirit; in which, I beſeech you, hereafter ſhew greater Modeſty. It would do well alſo, if you thought upon all the Contempt which hath been poured by you, or by your means, not only upon the Biſhops, but their Order and Function; and conſequently upon all the Antient Churches, who flouriſhed ſo happily under that Government: upon all the preſent Miniſtery alſo, for whom no name could be found bad enough: nay, and more than this, upon all Civil Governours, for whom there is ſcarce left any ſuch thing, as Honour and Reverence. And now I ſpeak of them, let me again intreat you not to oppoſe their Commands, if you cannot obey them; but only let them alone, and forbear to do them. And let this Forbearance, be with much Modeſty, Humility, page missing

End of the text · Simon Patrick, Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist (1668)