Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist — Simon Patrick

Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist · Simon Patrick

N. C.

What then?

What then, do you ſay? I would have you behold your face in this Glaſs, and ſee how wretchedly and ſuperſtitiouſly you look. For you think you muſt not, for fear of God's Diſpleaſure, uſe a Form, nor ſign a Child with the Croſs in Baptiſm, nor Bow in the Houſe of God, nor go up to the Rails, nay, nor Kneel, nor hear Church Muſick, nor uncover your Heads when you enter into a Church, nor call the Lord's-day Sunday, nor keep an Holy-day. Nay, it was a long time before you thought it lawful to let your Hair grow below your Ears. All which things we may do, and not diſpleaſe God at all. On the other ſide. You imagine you are bound to propagate & ſpread all your little Opinions, though with the Ruin of Kingdoms: That you are tied to maintain your liberty in indifferent matters, againſt all the Authority of a King, and to the diſturbing a Church: That you have a Sermon or two on a Faſting day, or elſe you fear it is not kept; and two Sermons on the Lord's-day, or elſe you doubt it is not Sanctified. Nay, ſome of you (I remember) fanſied heretofore, that it was no Sermon, if it were not in the Pulpit. And to ſuch an height is your Superſtition grown, that you ſcarce think a Prayer is acceptable to God, unleſs it be long. And you are afraid he is not ſerved aright, unleſs we have a long Prayer before Sermon, after we have been praying a great while for all manner of things. And ſuch a Neceſſity you ſeem to lay upon extemporary Prayer, that many well-diſpoſed people, who have not that Gift, dare not pray at all, (at leaſt in their Families) for fear they ſhould not pray aright. And all theſe are things of ſuch a nature, as that they may not be done, or done otherwiſe than you think they muſt, and God be never the leſs pleaſed with us.

N. C.

Now you have diſcovered the Naughtineſs of your Heart, in ſpeaking againſt Sermons in the Afternoon.

If I ſhould do ſo, I ſhould ſpeak againſt my ſelf, and ran into your fault, I think they may be uſed, or they may be let alone, according as the Edification of the People ſhall require. But to make them ſo neceſſary as you do, ariſes from a Superſtitious Fanſie, that God is not well ſerved without them. Whereas in truth the Catechiſm expounded, or the Scriptures opened, would be as well, or rather better.

N. C.

I doubt there is ſomething that is naught lies at the bottom of ſuch Diſcourſes.

You ſhould rather ſuſpect there are naughty things at the bottom of ſuch Opinions as yours. For the Fruit of your Superſtition is this at the beſt; Raſh and unjuſt Cenſuring of your Brethren, that do not the things which you make ſo neceſſary to be done, or do the things which you make ſo neceſſary to be forborn; and at laſt downright Schiſm and Separation from them, becauſe you fanſie they are out of the way of God.

N. C.

I muſt confeſs I have ſome fear you are ſo; who can be content without a Sermon in the Afternoon, and ſatisfied with Common-Prayer; which I could never feel my ſelf ſo affected with, as I am with extemporary Devotions.

That's becauſe you had ſo low an eſteem of it, and therefore brought no deſires, nor uſed any Endeavours to be moved by it: but rather you ſet your ſelf in a dull and ſleepy Poſture, as one that had no liſt to hear it. I could tell you ſomething elſe beſides this, but it would only vex you.

N. C.

I am not afraid of any thing you can ſay. Pray ſpeak your mind.

I believe if you would examine your ſelf, you would find there is ſome part of your Miniſters extemporary Prayers, which do no more affect you than our Service.

N. C.

What part ſhould that be?

The Entrance or Beginning of his Prayer: When he ſpeaks very ſlow, as if he was ſtudying what to ſay, and draws out his words with a low Voice, and with a ſmall degree of Vehemence, and little or no Motion; then I ſay, I believe your Affections are low too, and you feel not your heart much moved. But when his Voice begins to riſe, (eſpecially, if he lift it up on a ſudden, and it break out like a Clap of Thunder) and when he ſpeaks more fluently, & his Zeal begins to kindle, and he lays about him, and is full of life (as you call it) that is, uſes a great deal of Action; then is the time, if the truth were known; that your Affections ſtir, and begin to riſe from the bottom of your Heart, where they lay heavy and dull before. Then you ſigh and groan, and perhaps weep, and are put into many Paſſions, which lay quiet enough till his Breath blew lowder. Is not this the plain truth?

N. C.

What then?

Then you are no more affected with the Prayers of your Miniſter, (as they are pious Petitions or Acknowledgments of God) than you are with our Common-Prayer; But only with the Voice, the Vehemency, the Action, the pretty Fancies and fine Phraſes, which perhaps he lights upon when he is a little heated; which were it my caſe, 'twould make me ſuſpect the Love of God was not in me. For why ſhould he think he loves God, who is not moved with Affection to him when he hears his Greatneſs, Goodneſs, Wiſdom, and Benefits to us, ſoberly and gravely expreſſed, but is in a great Commotion when he meets with a new Word that pleaſes him, or a kind Phraſe, or melting Tone, a ſweet Voice, or ſome ſuch thing?

N. C.

I hope it is ſomething elſe that affects me.

If it be, then pray tell me, why ſhould not the Common-Prayer affect you, whoſe ſenſe is good enough, only it is not varied and dreſſed up in new words every day? I beſeech you try your Heart, by examining the Book, & conſidering whether thoſe very things be not requeſted of God there, which you deſire in your Prayers: and if they be, then demand of your ſelf a Reaſon why they move you no more. I doubt you will find it is becauſe they are not new, but old Expreſſions.

N. C.

I will conſider of it at leiſure.

To help you a little take this along with you; which will go near to convince you, that if it be not the Voice and Tone, it is the Novelty which affects you. Suppoſe one of the Prayers of your own Miniſters, which you think is indicted by the Spirit, was taken in ſhorthand writing, and afterward uſed every day in the Service of God, as often as our Prayers are: Tell me ſeriouſly, do you not think it would ſeem very flat at laſt, fuller of nauceous Repetitions and faulty Expreſſions than you conceive to be in the Common-Prayer?

N. C.

You put a hard Queſtion to me.

I ſee you are inclined to be of my mind; and therefore pray conſider theſe two things. Firſt, That ſince even a Prayer which you think ſo heavenly would not affect you alway, if it were alway uſed; it is to be feared you are moved only while Prayers are new, and indeed becauſe they are new, not becauſe they are good & pious Petitions. And Secondly, that ſince it is convenient, if not neceſſary, to have a Form of Prayer in the Church, and the Common-Prayer hath no other Imperfection but what thoſe whom you ſo much admire would have, were they conſtantly uſed, as it is; why ſhould you not like it as well as any, eſpecially ſince it is eſtabliſhed by publick Authority?

N. C.

I will conſider of it, as I ſaid before. But I wiſh you had ſeen a Book (as I perceive you have many of ours) newly come out, which ſuppoſes your Service-Book hath been abuſed to Superſtition and Idolatry, and therefore muſt be aboliſh'd.

He doth well to ſuppoſe it, and not to undertake the proof of it. What is the name of the Book?

N. C.

Nehuſhtan.

I have had a ſhort ſight of it, as it creeps up and down privately.

N. C.

What do you think of it.

I will tell you firſt what I think of you.

N. C.

Why what is the matter.

You ſeem to be in a moſt dangerous condition; for you are infected, as I told you, already with the extravagant Fancies of a number of other Sects, with whom you are blended. And in all likelihood you will have ſuch new Inventions, or rather Frenzies, every year, as will at laſt deſtroy your ſelves as well as us. Some of your Miniſters, for inſtance, acknowledg that the Liturgy is lawful to be uſed, and can read it themſelves. Others there are that think it lawful, but not convenient for men of their Parts and Gifts, whoſe Miniſtry (which it ſeems is of great Neceſſity & Benefit) they conceive would be thereby rendred leſs uſeful. Then there is a third ſort who are gone farther and doubt of its Lawfulneſs: So that they dare not be preſent at it, though they are content others ſhould, who think it lawful. And now here is a man thinks no body ought to hear it, nor be ſuffered to uſe ſuch a Form of Worſhip; but though the Magiſtrate ought to tolerate you, yet he ought not to tolerate us. For he ſaith, It is his Duty utterly to extirpate the Liturgy, as well as the Ceremonies. And every one of you in your places ought to do your parts towards the aboliſhing of it; and not ſit ſtill in the midſt of ſuch Defilements and Snares, but diſcover your hatred of them, decline their uſe, and in ſuch ways as Prudence, Juſtice and Order do allow, Endeavour the rooting of them out. Whether you will go next, God only knows. And God help the poor Children of the Church of England, who when all ſo boldly challenge Liberty and Toleration, muſt be the only Perſons excluded from this Favour, and, according to this Gentleman, be denied the uſe of the Common-Prayer, when every body elſe may pray what he liſt.

N. C.

You muſt be content, if he have Evinced (as he tells us he hath, in his Title page) That the Liturgy, Ceremonies, and other things uſed at this day in the Church of England, ought neither to be impoſed, nor retained, but utterly extirpated and laid aſide. And he pretends in his Epiſtle to have ſaid more in this Argument than ever was ſaid before.

He doth ſo, and imagins he can weild an old rotten Engine, that hath been long laid aſide, better than former Workmen, who were but Bunglers in compare with this Artiſt. For he doubts not to manage it ſo as to throw down the whole Fabrick of the Engliſh Church.

N. C.

What Engine do you mean?

It is this Principle, That it is the will and pleaſure of God, that ſuch things as have been abuſed and polluted in Superſtitions and Idolatrous Services ſhould be aboliſhed and laid aſide (pag. 15.) Which I obſerve he contracts into theſe words, (pag. 21.) It is Gods will that things abuſed in corrupt and falſe Worſhip ſhould be laid aſide.

N. C.

And what have you to ſay to it?

I will firſt tell you what he ſays to it, After he had told us a great many things (which every body knows) concerning the will of God that the Iſraelites ſhould aboliſh the Images & Groves and Altars of the Cananites, &c. and thence concluded, that ſuch things as have been imployed to corrupt ends and purpoſes muſt be aboliſhed: at laſt he comes and tells us, that this principle muſt not be extended too far, nor made to ſerve againſt all things that have been ſo abuſed, and he excepts a great number. Nothing Commanded by God muſt be diſuſed upon this account; none of Gods Creatures are to be refuſed; nay, no neceſſary and profitable Devices of men need be ſent packing, though they have been ſo profan'd, & more than this, he ſays that things which are but in a competent degree uſeful, may be retain'd, if they have been abuſed to Idolatry only in a ſlight manner; that is, a little while. Nay, things that have been more groſly abuſed, in caſe there be no danger for the future of their being imploy'd, to Idolatry, he is content ſhould be ſpar'd, and uſed either to Civil or Religious purpoſes. Now let any man, that can be Maſter of coherent Thoughts but for one minute, tell me, if this be not as much as to ſay his Principle is not true; and that things are not to be rejected merely upon this account, that they have been imployed in falſe Worſhip, but there muſt be ſome other reaſon for it. For if there be ſo many things, as he confeſſes, that may be abuſed; and yet may, nay ſome ought to be ſtill uſed in God's Service, then the Abuſe is not a ſufficient reaſon for our throwing them away utterly, but there muſt be ſome other which makes it neceſſary. And if he had told us that reaſon plainly, and ſpent his Diſcourſe in making it good; he had done like a man. But he ſaw (it's like) that this would not have done his buſineſs, for it would not for inſtance, have reached to the taking away of Common-Prayer; becauſe it may be ſtill uſeful, as much (ſure) as his Pen, which, he tells us, muſt not be thrown away, if any man be ſo fooliſh as to bow down to it and worſhip it. (pag. 130.) And as neceſſary I ſhould think, as the Water-Pots in Cana of Galilee, which he confeſſes our Saviour uſed, though abuſed to Superſtition and unlawful Purifications, And it is in no danger to be imploy'd to Idolatry, for the Papiſts hate it; and I hope he hath no thoughts that we ever intend to ſay theſe Prayers to Saints or Angels, any more than to bow to a Saint or Angel ſtanding for a Sign at an Inn-keeper's door: And yet that is no ſuch Profanation of the Sign in his judgment, but that the owner may let it ſtand, unleſs it become cuſtomary to bow to it.

N. C.

Well. Is not the Gentleman to be commended for his Honeſty, in not concealing this from his Readers, that his Propoſition or Doctrine is not to be underſtood univerſally?

He durſt do no otherwiſe. For if by things abuſed which muſt be aboliſhed, he had underſtood all things abuſed, then he ſaw the Lord's-day would be antiquated, the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper laid aſide, nay, he himſelf put out of his Miniſtry: the Chriſtian Prieſts or Miniſters having ſo much ſerved Idols as he ſuppoſes. But ſince his Doctrine was to be limited, why was he not ſo honeſt as to do it at firſt; that ſo no Reader might be abuſed, who perhaps would not go ſo far as to come to his Limitations? Why did he not ſay, ſome things abuſed muſt be lay'd aſide, and in ſome Caſe; for that's the ſenſe of his Propoſition? To make it plainer what I mean, I ſay, (mark it I pray you) by things abuſed, he underſtands only ſome things; and when he ſays they muſt be lay'd aſide, he means in ſome Caſes they muſt be lay'd aſide; as appears by his Exceptions afterwards. And therefore he had done ſincerely, if he had drawn up his Propoſition thus, (and it had been agreeable to his Text, 2 Kings 18.4.) Some things abuſed, &c. are in ſome caſes to be lay'd aſide. But, I conceive he ſaw that this would not ſo well ſerve his purpoſe; which was, to put people out of conceit with the Common-Prayer and Ceremonies as much as ever he could. For the Doctrine would not have been ſo popular, nor ſo eaſie to declaim upon. It would have put him to a great deal of pains, to ſpecifie the things that muſt of neceſſity be deſtroy'd, and then he muſt have undertaken an harder Task, to name the Caſes wherein thoſe things, that might otherwiſe be ſpared, muſt needs be aboliſh'd; and another harder than that, to ſhew that, becauſe ſome particular things were aboliſh'd at one time, none of the like kind muſt ever be uſed. And then he muſt have proceeded to ſhew, which ought to have made the principal part of his Book, but now in a manner is taken for granted) that the Liturgy is in the number of thoſe things that have been ſo abuſed; and that the caſe is ſo, that it cannot be tolerated, but muſt be deſtroyed by the King, as the Brazen Serpent was by Hezekiah. Which would have proved the moſt difficult labour of all. For ſuppoſing it had been ever imploy'd to Idolatry, (which can never be proved;) yet ſince Hezekiah, in all likelyhood, would never have deſtroy'd ſuch a Monument of God's mercies as the Brazen Serpent, had the people of a long time ceaſed to burn Incenſe to it, and been in no danger to do ſo again; why ſhould we throw away the Liturgy, now that it is not abuſed to any Idolatrous purpoſe, nor in any likelihood ſo to be? Beſides, it cannot be ſo aboliſh'd as the Brazen Serpent was, but the very ſame Form may be brought forth again upon occaſion. And therefore any likelihood that may be fanſied of its being uſed to Idolatry in future times can be of no conſideration here, becauſe it may be ſo uſed whether we lay it aſide or no.

All theſe things conſidered, he very wiſely waved this Method; and only tells the people in general terms that things abuſed in falſe Worſhip muſt be laid aſide: Under which he knew the Liturgy and Ceremonies would be concluded by them, without any more adoe. For though his Inſtances or Proofs be all particular, and therefore he ſaw well enough his Propoſition ought to have been ſo; yet the people he knew might not ſee it, but preſently conclude the Liturgy muſt be packt away among the things abuſed. And though he makes limitations and reſtrictions of this Propoſition, to ſhew it is not Univerſal; yet they come a great way behind. And before there is any certainty what the abuſed things are, which muſt be laid aſide; the Magiſtrate is told his Duty, and earneſtly preſſed to remove them: the people alſo are inſtructed in theirs; who, he ſaith, are all concerned in one reſpect or other, as you may ſee Sect. 7. Then he ſpends another Section to ſhew the manner how it muſt be done; and another about the time; declaring, they muſt forthwith lay their hand to the work, even before they knew what they had to do, (for the time was not come to tell them that.) And then another follows, to give the Reaſons of the Point: wherein theſe things are Repreſented as ſo odious and loathſom to God, that you may well think the Liturgy might be condemned to the Flames by the Reader, before he came to conſider whether it was not an excepted thing; and he might be in ſuch a flame to ſee execution done forthwith; as not to have patience to deliberate whether he ought to ſave it or no. Nor is the matter much mended when he comes to his Cautions: for, leſt it ſhould happen to be acquitted or reprieved, he doth not ſo much as bring it to a trial, much leſs bid his Readers take heed of paſſing raſh judgment, without examining whether it were guilty of the aforeſaid Crime or no; but fairly leaves it to take its chance, and to ſtand or fall in their opinion as it ſhould happen. And therefore he did wiſely intimate in the beginning of that Section, that it muſt be left to the Reader to compare his Cautions with what he had ſaid; for there is not one in twenty that will take that pains, and fewer that are able to do it to any purpoſe, without ſome aſſiſtance. In ſhort, as far as I can judge, (for God only knows the Heart) he ſaw it was his beſt way to let his Reſtrictions alone till the laſt, and to propound his Doctrine in round and general words, becauſe he knew the people would more readily ſwallow it; whereas if it had been broken into parts, ſome of which were to be taken, and ſome left; they might prove more nice, when they ſaw there was a ſcrupulous difference to be made. But that we may ſee what force there is in his Principle to do ſuch feats as he imagins, I pray, if you can, reſolve me one thing.

N. C.

What's that?

Whether a Roman Prieſt being truly converted (as far as we can judge) may not be made an Engliſh Miniſter.

N. C.

Yes, ſurely: what ſhould hinder?

I will ſhew you clearly that it muſt not be according to his way of Reaſoning. He tells you (pag. 21.) that things abuſed in Falſe Worſhip muſt be laid aſide; Then (pag. 44.) he tells you, that under the word Things he comprehends Perſons, and laſtly, (pag. 49.) he affirms the Papiſts to be no better than Idolaters. Now ſhew me how any Popiſh Prieſt, who in his language is a thing abuſed (ſo notoriouſly) in Superſtitious and Idolatrous Worſhip, may ever be made uſe of more in the Service of God eſpecially when you conſider what a poſſibility there is, that he may be Serviceable in the falſe Worſhip again. For my part, I think, according to his Principles, that he ought not only to be laid aſide, but to be kill'd.

N. C.

God forbid.

Read his third Section at your leiſure, and tell me what you think of it. For it's like you have ſuch Books among you, though we ſee them but by chance.

N. C.

I have it not, nor know when I ſhall ſee it. Pray tell me briefly what he ſays.

He tells you that God is ſo Impatient of groſs and open Idolatry, and of ſuch as are guilty of it, that he every where breaths forth Death againſt them.

N. C.

You have told me enough.

Nay, ſince you have put me upon it, you ſhall have a little more. God peremptorily decrees he ſayes that whoſoever pleads for Idols, offers to them, or performs them any ſervice, ſhall not only be look'd on as unfit to approach him, but alſo loſe his life.

N. C.

Since you would not leave off when I would have had you, I will be even with you, and require his reaſon for this Aſſertion. Doth he bring any place of Scripture that contains ſo Univerſal a Decree, that Whoſoever he is that pleads, &c.

No: You know his way is to make his Propoſition Ʋniverſal, and his Proofs Particular. He brings you above half a ſcore Texts out of the Scripture, which ſpeaks of the execution that was to be done upon the ſeven Nations of Canaan, or the Apoſtate Iſraelites and the Prieſts of Baal; and leaves you to be ſo kind as to ſuppoſe, (though he go not about to prove it) that God hath decreed the like againſt all Idolaters whatſoever. And then at laſt he thus concludes; How far this concerns the Papiſts, the knowledg of their ways and practice will inform us. That they are Idolaters the beſt Proteſtant writers affirm. And it will not relieve them to alledg that they worſhip the true God; for ſo did the Iſraelites when they worſhipped the Calf, yet no body queſtions but they were guilty of Idolatry. I wonder he did not adde, from what went before, and you very well know Moſes ordere… them to be ſlain.

N. C.

I muſt confeſs his Diſcourſe ought to have ended ſo, if it be as you relate. And as I do not like it upon that account, ſo there's another thing that makes me think he is out of the way. There are many that ſcruple to call the place of your Aſſemblies a Church, and yet they would not have them pull'd down, (as they muſt be by theſe Principles) they being convenient Places to meet in for the Service of God. And for my part I would have the Cathedrals ſtand, if it were but to be an ornament to the Nation; though I plainly ſee his Engine, as you call it, will throw them all down, if we ſuffer it to go to work.

He ſaw this as well as you; and therein could not but diſcern his Principle was bad, becauſe it prov'd more than he would have it. And therefore perceiving how it undermin'd the Foundation of all our Churches, (except ſome few lately built) and being loth ſuch goodly Fabricks ſhould tumble down, nay all the ſtatelieſt Buildings in Europe be laid in the duſt; he, in great compaſſion quits his Principle, that he might ſupport them. For he tells you, that thoſe only are to be thrown down which in reſpect of their Situation and Figure or the like, are unfit for profitable Ʋſes; and ſuch as remain deck'd with their Idols Attire; and ſtand among ſuch people as are ſcandaliz'd with the uſe of them, and are in ſuch places where there is danger of their return to Idolatry; which a man half blind ſees is as much as to ſay, They are not to be laid aſide becauſe they have been imploy'd to Idolatry, but for other conſiderations. He himſelf confeſſes as much, when he ſaith, if they be in regard of their Situation and Figure, and the like; ſit for profitables Ʋſes, &c. they may lawfully be retain'd. That is, as if he had ſaid, there is no neceſſity of laying them aſide, becauſe they were abuſed in falſe Worſhip; and therefore my Principle is not true which I laid down at the beginning, that things abuſed in falſe worſhip muſt be aboliſhed. Are you not amazed that he ſhould be thus forced to forſake his Principle, and yet not mend it? Nay, as if he would demonſtrate that men are carried by Humour and Prejudice when they talk of theſe matters, after all this, he would have Cathedrals pull'd down, as the High places were.

N. C.

Why? What difference is there?

For any thing I can ſee there is none, but they have all the qualifications he mentioned to deſerve his Favour. Neither the Situation nor their Figure hinders but they may be fit for profitable Uſes. I never ſaw any Idols attire with which they are adorn'd; nor do they ſtand among thoſe who are ſcandaliz'd at them, unleſs it be ſuch as himſelf, (and ſome other humourſome people) who firſt take offence at them without any reaſon, and then make this ſerve for a Reaſon why they ſhould be pull'd down.

N. C.

No doubt he hath ſome Reaſon.

If he have, he concealed it, or it muſt ly in their Figure and Situation rendring them unfit for profitable Uſes, or in their remaining deck'd with their Idols Attire; from none of which can there be any thing alledged more againſt the Cothedrals than againſt other Churches; nor ſo much neither, in ſome regards. For they may be made to ſerve many more profitable uſes than a ſmall Church. But if his people's being offended at them, no body knows why, nor wherefore, muſt ſtand alone for a Reaſon; then mark unto what a fine paſs he hath brought his buſineſs. He hath quitted his ground in this particular to no purpoſe, and done the Churches, he thought to ſave, no ſervice at all; for he holds faſt one Fancy which will not let them ſtand.

N. C.

What is it?

I have told it you already; that if they ſtand among ſuch as are ſcandaliz'd at them, they ought not to be retain'd. Alas poor Churches! To what purpoſe was all this care to keep them from Ruine? The Quakers and many other people are extremely offended at them, and could be content with a Gothiſh Barbariſm to demoliſh them. Or if they were not, we know not when the Conceit will take men to be ſcandaliz'd; and then they muſt be converted into Stables or Cow-houſes, or what they pleaſe; or rather pull'd down, for fear they be converted to Churches again. And truly when I conſider all things, I wonder they were not long a goe deſtroy'd upon this very ſcore.

N. C.

When were they in danger: I pray you?

Upon a Petition of the Aſſembly of Divines, July 19. there was an Ordinance (I remember) of 28. Aug. 1643. requiring that all Monuments of Superſtition and Idolatry ſhould be demoliſh'd; which was repeated again, to make ſure work, May 9. 1644. Now why Churches were not mention'd is hard to tell, for they were dedicated to the honour of ſome Saint or other at the firſt: and to thoſe Saints there was then ſuch an Abhorrence, that as they would not let their Images or Pictures ſtand, ſo, it ſhould ſeem, their Coats of Arms, if they had any, were to be defaced. For thus a Proviſo at the latter end runs: This Ordinance ſhall not extend to the taking down the Image, or Picture, or Coat of Arms, ſet up for any dead man, who was not commonly reputed a Saint. It ſeems they concluded, that none of the reputed Saints in their days would be thought ſo hereafter, (for then no Picture or Image at all ſhould have been allow'd, for fear of being worſhipped) and their words ſuppoſe, that any of thoſe (either Image, Picture, or Coat of Arms) belonging to any ancient reputed Saints muſt not ſtand. The Churches therefore that bore their Names, and were better Monuments and remembrances of them than any Coat of Arms, had good fortune they were not beaten down.

N. C.

They had ſo: But they were fit ſtill for Uſe, and ſo were not Images and Pictures.

Yet thoſe in the Glaſs-windows were fit enough, and ſerved ſtill for the ſame uſe they had done before, where they had the wit to turn their Heels upward.

N. C.

It is like, ſome had no mind to take any notice of them, but were rather well pleaſed to paſs them by.

Perhaps ſo: For men can paſs things by, or take but little notice of them, when they liſt; though they concern them very much: Of which we have an inſtance in this very Writer. For being to treat of things abuſed, firſt he tells us of Perſons, then of Names, next of Times, and after that of Places which have been imploy'd to Superſtitious or Idolatrous Uſes. And of each of theſe he diſcourſes in a ſection by it ſelf. Would not any man have expected now to find one Section on purpoſe about Books that have been ſo abuſed? Eſpecially ſince his greateſt Spite is at the Liturgy, and it is the prime thing he undertook to overthrow? And yet he thruſts this thing into a Corner, as ſome did their Glaſs-windows heretofore, not being deſirous to meddle much with it, nor having much to ſay in this matter. I mean, he crouds it in among many other things, at the end of that Section about abuſed Places; and there you find it under the Name of ſuch Ʋtenſils as have been devoted to Superſtitious Uſes, which are Altars, Images, Books, Reliques, Veſſels and other Inſtruments that have been imployed in that manner. Now mark, I pray you, in what general terms he ſpeaks of all theſe together, (for you muſt not expect to have them diſtinctly handled:) Though in themſelves (ſaith he) they are never ſo innocent, rich and ſplendid; yet when once they have been Serviceable to ſuch Wickedneſs, He would have them caſt away, as things unfit to be retained by thoſe that profeſs his Name. Would you look now to find any limitation of this, and to hear that things fit for God's Service may be retain'd? And yet in this very Section he allows this favour to Places; and there is the ſame reaſon Books ſhould enjoy it. And would you not expect a clear proof of this, that even Innocent things muſt be deſtroy'd, (and particularly Books imploy'd in Idol-worſhip?) eſpecially ſince he pretends to juſtifie his Aſſertion by Scripture, and ſaith, This appears by divers expreſs Precepts which he gave the Iſraelites to this purpoſe?

N. C.

Yes, indeed, ſhould I; and I ſuppoſe he produces them.

Read but pag. 75. and try if you find a Syllable ſpoken to the Iſraelites about Books, or about innocent things either. I can ſee nothing but what concerns their Altars, Images and Pictures. He tells you, indeed, that whole Cities in Canaan and every thing in them were to be deſtroy'd. But he would not take notice, at the ſame time, that this was only commanded concerning that Countrey; and that there is no proof can be made, that there were any innocent Books there imploy'd in their Idolworſhip. No, we conclude rather all were Superſtitious and Idolatrous in themſelves, and ſuch as could never be imployed in Divine Service. It is true, at laſt he comes to remember us, that in the New Teſtament we read, the Chriſtian Converts burnt their Curious Books, Act. 19.19. But what is this to the Precepts he promiſed to ſhew us given to the Iſraelites? And what is this to the buſineſs of Prayer-Books? Nay, why did he not ſhew us the Innocence of theſe Books, and prove that Conjuring was a very harmleſs Art?—

N. C.

I wiſh you would have done with this Book of his, which I think in one ſenſe is innocent enough, and will do no harm among conſidering people.

I am content to make an end; for I fear I have been too tedious. But it was out of a deſire to examine ſeriouſly whether there were ſuch force as he conceives in this Engine, to batter down all the Fortifications that they who preſide in the Church, or their Aſſiſtants, can erect, in defence of the abuſed Scandalous things (as he calls them) which with ſo much zeal we contend for, viz. the Liturgy and Ceremonies. They are his words in his Epiſtle.

N. C.

He tells you a little after, that he will not offer to impoſe his belief on others. Let every body read, and then do as he finds cauſe.

I commend his Ingenuity and Modeſty, only I wiſh his Zeal was a little leſs in this matter, and that he would not think himſelf and others ingag'd to endeavour to the utmoſt of their power the Extirpation and aboliſhing of the Liturgy. For what is this but to impoſe his belief upon us, as much as he is able, in his place? Doth he only offer his Reaſons, who ſolicites and perſwades and intreats men to promote his Deſign? Doth he leave others to judge, who ingages their Affections, and ſtirs up their Paſſions, as if the Cauſe were already decided according to his mind? This it is to be zealous to advance a private Opinion, He meant, it's like, as he ſpoke, when he told us in his Epiſtle, that he expected and deſired … more but that we would candidly weigh th… caſe: but his zeal made him forget himſelf, and earneſtly beſeech us to be up and doing, as if judgment were already given on his ſide. This I make no doubt, was the thing that put him ſo much beſide the Cuſhion, as to make him magnifie the Purity of thoſe Doctrines, which in ſober thoughts he ſaw were of pernicious conſequence. And I would willingly think it was nothing elſe that made him only paſs his word, that the Liturgy is one of the things that God would have laid aſide, without any Proof of it: For whatſoever he or the Aſſembly have been pleaſed to ſay, no body ever made an Idol of it, or were guilty of adoring it. Theſe are but a kind of Conjuring Phraſes and Magical words, which make a great Sound, and aſtoniſh the ſilly people, but ſignifie nothing, ſave only this, that men care not what they ſay to ſerve their cauſe. And therefore I hope you will not be afrighted by ſuch Bug-bears, but come and do your Duty to God and man both together, in joyning with us in Common-Prayer.

N. C.

I will conſider it as I have told you more than once: But I have had the leſs mind to come to it, becauſe after it is done, your Miniſter prays ſo coldly himſelf.

That is, he doth not put himſelf into a Sweat. But are not his words lively, and apt to warm the Hearts of thoſe who attend to them?

N. C.

Methinks not. And beſide, his Sermons that follow are very dull, and nothing comparable to ours.

Now you are got again to the Hole from whence I did drive you a good while agoe: you run in a Circle of diſcourſe, and are returned thither where we firſt began. But ſince I have followed your motions thus far, I will ask you this queſtion; Why do you not rather think your ſelf dull than him?

N. C.

Becauſe I am not dull in other places, and yet was ſo at your Church.

You may be in the fault for all that. For perhaps you was diſaffected to his Perſon, or to his method of handling things; or you had a greater Kindneſs for ſome other; and then, though S. Paul himſelf ſhould preach, you would be apt to prefer that man before him.

N. C.

No; methinks his matter is dull and flat.

Why, what did you hear him treat of?

N. C.

I heard him preach about the neceſſity of Obedience to the Laws of Chriſt. And there he told us how we muſt do as we would be done unto, and love our Neighbours as our ſelves, and forgive Injuries, and make Reſtitution of ill-gotten Goods; with a great many other ſuch like things, which every body knows already. And yet he ſpent I know not well how many Sermons about theſe common matters.

Does every body know theſe things, ſay you? The greater ſhame then that they live not according to them. I am afraid they are not ſenſible of the neceſſity of theſe things, about which a man of any underſtanding and ſeriouſneſs cannot well ſpeak, and be flat and dull. I much ſuſpect that you even ſet your ſelf to ſleep, or ſuffered your thoughts to run to other matter, or fell a reading in your Bible, (as I have ſeen ſome do) when he begun to treat of ſuch Arguments as theſe, thinking that you was little concern'd in them.

N. C.

I muſt confeſs part of what you ſay. For when I come to Church, I look not for Moral, but Chriſtian Doctrines.

How now? Do you oppoſe Morality and Chriſtianity? Is not the former a part of the latter? I mean; doth not the Chriſtian Religion teach us the higheſt Morality?

N. C.

No I think it doth not meddle with it.

Then you talk of this as you do of many other things, without underſtanding. Pray what is Moral Doctrine?

N. C.

Do you tell me, if you pleaſe.

I always took it to be that Doctrine which teaches us how to regulate our manners, that is, to order and govern our actions, or our whole Behaviour in this World. Now I appeal to any man that reads the Goſpel, whether this be not the very deſign of it, to teach us to live ſoberly, righteouſly, and godlily.

N. C.

Is this morality?

Yes, that it is. And therefore I ſaid that Chriſtian Religion advances Morality to the greateſt height; becauſe it gives us the beſt and moſt excellent Motives to live ſoberly, righteouſly, charitably, and piouſly in this World.

N. C.

For all this, I think it were better if Jeſus Chriſt were more preached.

Still I ſee you deceive your ſelf, and trouble the world with Phraſes. Doth not he preach Jeſus Chriſt that preaches his Doctrine? If you doubt of it, you ſhall have Scripture enough to prove it.

N. C.

But I mean that the Love of Jeſus Chriſt to poor Souls ſhould be more preached.

I cannot ſay it ſhould be more preached; but it ought to be preached, and ſo it is; and perhaps better; than you would have it. For his Love is declared, to the end we may love him and keep his Commandments. This is that which the Grace of God teaches us, to live ſoberly, &c. The Loving-Kindneſs of God towards mankind, in Chriſt Jeſus was expreſſed for this very purpoſe. And therefore he that preaches both theſe together is the beſt and wiſeſt Guide with whom to entruſt our Souls; and that is the deſign of our Miniſter. He doth not tickle us merely with a ſoft Story of the great love of Jeſus Chriſt towards Sinners; But labours to beget in us an ardent love to him. And leſt we ſhould run away with a pleaſant Fanſie, he makes us underſtand wherein this love conſiſts, Viz. in Obedience to him to the very death; in Meekneſs, Humility, Patience, taking up the Croſs, and ſuch like Graces; which ſeem to be rough things, and have no amiableneſs in the eye of the World, but are as dear to all thoſe who love our Saviour, as their very Lives. And this makes me think him the moſt ſincere and honeſt, that he doth not ſeek ſo much to pleaſe us in his Preaching, as to profit us.

N. C.

Profit, Do you call it? I could never profit by him at all.

Whoſe fault was that? Yours, or his? You are loth to ſuſpect your ſelf, and inclin'd to lay all the load on others. I believe it will be found at the great Day that he hath done his duty better than you.

N. C.

That's a thing, which neither you nor I know. But this I am ſure of, that I can profit more by others, than by him.

Let me try the truth of that, if you pleaſe, for I very much doubt of it.

N. C.

I am ſure of it.

If you profit ſo much, then your Miniſters make you wiſer and better than you were before: For there are but theſe two things that argue Proficiency. Now do as much as anſwer me the firſt. Wherein are you wiſer than you were? What one thing do you know, that you did not underſtand before, or might have underſtood eaſily, when you pleaſed? What things do you now underſtand the Reaſon of better than formerly? Or what account can you give me of the grounds of Chriſtian Faith, and of the Hope that is in you? What Rules of Prudence have you met withal? What explication of Scripture? I was going to ask what Point in Divinity you are able to ſtate with Judgement and due Caution? But that's too hard a Queſtion.

N. C.

I am not able preſently to call things to mind. But this I am ſure of, that I get more good by them, than any men that ever I heard.

That is, you are grown better: wherein I beſeech you? Are your carnal Affections more mortified? Are your Paſſions more ſubdued to Reaſon? Are you more humble and lowly in heart? More meek, more merciful, more compaſſionate to all men, more affable, more courteous? I am afraid in this laſt Point you are grown better, as ſowr Ale doth in Summer; that is more ſharp and eager.

N. C.

Me-thinks I have much more Comfort.

That's ſtrange, when you are neither wiſer nor better, as far as I can diſcern. One would think you ſhould ſuſpect them to be fooliſh and deceitful Comforts, becauſe they have ſo little ground, except it be in your Imagination.

N. C.

VVhy? would you have me fetch my Comforts from my ſelf, and not from Jeſus Chriſt?

Now I ſee indeed how wiſe you are grown by this profound Queſtion.

N.C.

Muſt not all our Comfort be fetch'd from Jeſus Chriſt?

Yes: But every body cannot fetch it. They are the weary and heavy laden, and ſuch as take upon them his Yoke and Burthen, i. e. ſubmit to his Commands, whom he invites and promiſes eaſe and Refreſhment unto. By which you may ſee, if you will that we muſt feel ſomething that is good in our ſelves, (and more than good Deſires, and Affections and Purpoſes) before we can feel that ſolid Comfort and Satisfaction you ſpeak of.

N. C.

Then it ſeems we muſt fetch our comfort from our own ſelves.

No. But it ſeems you are grown ſo wiſe, and taken up in ſuch high Notions, that you cannot underſtand common Senſe. Is there any other Comfort you dare give to an ungodly man beſides this, that he may by the Grace of our Lord be made better, and ſo received into his Favour?

N. C.

I think not.

Then before you can take that full Comfort in him which you talk of, you muſt feel that you are truly changed and converted to a love of Godlineſs, and a Life according to thoſe good Affections. All the good, indeed, that is in us, and all that we hope for, we derive from our Saviour Chriſt: but till we become good, and be made like him, we do but put our ſelves into a Fool's Paradiſe, if we fanſie that we are in his Favour, and that he will carry us to Heaven. And on the contrary, when we are once made partakers of his bleſſed Nature and Spirit, how can we chooſe but be full of Joy, both in that Reſemblance we find in our ſelves to him, and much more in the hopes he hath given us, that he will perfect thoſe Beginings in eternal Life? But it is as plain, that though we cannot but rejoyce very much in that which we feel in our ſelves, (the Likeneſs of Chriſt and good Hopes) yet the Original of this Joy & Satisfaction is not from our ſelves, but him, who gave us that Participation of his nature and thoſe good Hopes.

N. C.

I do not well underſtand you. But this I know, that you all talk as if we were to bring ſomething to Chriſt, and not to take all from him.

Rather to talk thus is to be very ridiculous. For he invites us to come to him, i.e. to believe on him, and become his Diſciples and Followers. And this we muſt do, or elſe be diſown'd by him; though when we do it, we only obey his heavenly Call, and bring him nothing, but only all our Deſires and Affections to be govern'd by him. Is there any body ſo abſurd, as to imagine we muſt not give up our ſelves to be led and guided by him in his ways? and when we are in them, does any body think we came there without his Motion and gracious attraction? Would you have us without any more a do conclude, that all the promiſed bleſſings are our portion? or muſt we not firſt be perſwaded our Saviour tells us the truth of God, and then purpoſe to learn of him and obey him, and next ſet our ſelves with all our might to ſubdue every Thought and Paſſion to his obedience, and laſt of all, order all our actions (by the aſſiſtance of the ſame Grace whereby we do the reſt) according to the Rule of his Laws? And muſt we not have a ſenſe that we are ſincere in all this, before we can reaſonably expect that he ſhould give us all the good things he promiſes? In ſhort, muſt he not give us his Grace to will and to do, and muſt we not receive it, and effectually do thereby all that I have ſaid, before we conclude our Sins are pardoned, and take the confidence to hope our Saviour will give us eternal Life?

N. C.

I perceive you pretend to have profited very much by your Miniſter.

Yes indeed; I think, I am grown wiſer a great deal and much better.

N. C.

I wiſh you would tell me briefly wherein.

I know God and his Attributes better, and perceive how all Religion depends on that Knowledge: I think alſo, I underſtand the nature of Religion in General, and of Chriſtianity in particular more exactly, than I did. I know wherein Religion conſiſts; with the grounds of Faith, and the Reaſon why I am a Chriſtian rather, than of any other Profeſſion. And withal, I hope I underſtand many places of Holy Scripture, and am able to give a clearer & ſoberer account of them than heretofore; whenas I ingeniouſly confeſs, I was wont to expound the Word of God by fanſie, and not by ſerious & attentive Conſiderations. And as for growth in goodneſs, I may truly ſay, I have learnt many things to be my Duty, which I ſcarce ever heard you ſpeak of. As for example, to bridle my Tongue; eſpecially when I ſpeak of my Superiors; to reverence my Governors; to live in obedience to Laws, though they happen to hinder my private profit; & for that end to look upon humane Laws, as binding the Conſcience; to anſwer my Betters with great Modeſty and Humility: in particular, not to contend boldly and malepertly with the Prieſt, as if I were upon equal ground with him; not to be a Buſy-body, & a Gadder from houſe to houſe; not to pry into every bodie's Secrets: not to rejoyce in iniquity, or take a pleaſure in hearing of the Sins of the contrary party; to be very fearful of making a Schiſm in the Church; and to name no more, to take heed of itching Ears, and not to run from my own Church, out of a fanſie that I can profit more in other places.

N. C.

Well, talk as long as you pleaſe, all the Godly will follow thoſe men whom you would perſwade me to forſake.

I am heartily ſorry to ſee your Arrogance and Uncharitableneſs. But it gives me to underſtand how much you profit by your Miniſters; not in the Graces of Chriſt, but in the peculiar unheard of Vertues of your Sect, Pride, Boaſting, Good opinion of your ſelves, Contempt of others, and raſh judging even of mens Spiritual eſtates.

N. C.

I think you judge raſhly of me.

No ſuch matter. Your Cenſoriouſneſs & Raſhneſs is apparent; and I do not commit the ſame fault, when I take notice of it. And I muſt let you know, that you commit another like this, when you make an Out-cry through the Nation and tell the people that all Ʋngodlineſs hath over-flown it, only ſince Biſhops and Common-Prayer came home again. Which is an arrant Lie; as will be made good, if need be, againſt the beſt of you. For it began to break in upon us when the Biſhops & all good Order was thrown down, and the Kingdom put into Arms. Then men ran into exceſs of Riot, when their was no Reſtraint upon them. I will not ſay into ſo much Drunkenneſs, but into Whoring (I may add Atheiſm and Irreligion) and ſuch like Wickedneſs, which are ſaid now to be the reigning ſins. And though men were not preſently openly laſcivious and profane (for the older Wickedneſs grows, the bolder it is;) yet then they got looſe from their Chains, and theſe works of Darkneſs ſecretly lurk'd, and were privately practiſed.

N. C.

I do not believe you.

You will believe the Aſſembly, I am ſure, and they ſay ſo.

N. C.

Where?

In their Petition to the Parliament of July 19. 1644. where they deſire (in the ſeventh Branch of it) that ſome ſevere Courſe may be taken againſt Fornication, Adultery, and Inceſt; which do greatly abound, ſay they, ESPECIALLY OF LATE, BY REASON OF IMPUNITY.

N. C.

I am not concern'd about this. But I affirm the Generality of the Godly people now follow us.

Suppoſe they did; you will not allow it a good Argument in other caſes to ſay that al the Godly for many Ages did ſuch and ſuch things, for inſtance, uſe a Form of Prayer, and ſuch Ceremonies as ours; and therefore, why do you keep ſuch a ſtir with it now? but where did you get a Liſt of all the Godly, that you can tell ſo exactly the major part follow you? Were they ever brought to the Poll? And who were Judges, I pray you, in the Caſe? You do but ſtill perſiſt in your over-fond Love to your ſelves, and your own Party and way, whe… you talk in this manner: For there are many ways to ſhew, that they are far from being the Generality of the Godly that flock to you… Meetings.

N. C.

Then you allow that ſome Godly people follow us.

Did I ever diſpute it? Nay, does there any body doubt (except your ſelves and the Papiſts) but that there may be Godly people of every Sort and Party? But then it is an imperfect ſort of Godlineſs which we acknowledg in them; and we hope God will bear with their Defects, when they are ſincerely humble and modeſt, and do not fanſie themſelves the only or the moſt godly people in the World. And if you will have me ſpeak my mind plainly, and not be angry; I think I may ſay without any raſhneſs, that your godly people are generally of the loweſt Form in Chriſt's School, as I told you before. A great deal of their Religion is of their own making, (as I lately ſhew'd you) and they want a great deal of God's Religion.

N. C.

You are very envious.

No truly. I admire the Grace of God whereſoever I ſee it, for it is the moſt lovely ſight that can preſent it ſelf to me. But I cannot allow them to be ſuch excellent Chriſtians as you imagine: they rather appear to me with many Deformities. For they are ever wrangling about little Ceremonies. They break the Peace of the Church by this means, and ſeem to make no ſcruple about it. They are froward and peeviſh, greedy of Riches, ſtubborn in their Opinions, and by no means can bear with any man differing from them in matters of Doctrine. In ſhort, I ſee a ſtrang Ignorance mixt with Preſumption & Wilfulneſs, not without a high degree of Superſtition, in thoſe whom you admire for godlineſs. But then there is a ſort of people who injoy that name among you, in whom I can ſee nothing but an humour of Deſpiſing and Railing at all ancient received Cuſtoms, how good ſoever; Together with a ſullen Devotion, and ſuch a turbulent nature, as will give no reſt to themſelves or others. And they have one peculiar Quality, proper to themſelvs alone; which is to revile our Miniſters even as they go along the ſtreets: a thing which I could never obſerve our ungodly people to be guilty of towards your Miniſters, who may paſs peaceably enough: nay, I think is not committed in any Country in the World, where they are of different Religions. Perhaps you will ſay, that ours would do it, did not the power of the Lord over-awe them and ſhut up their Mouths, that they may not reproach his faithful Servants. But this is only a caſt of your skill in ſearching the Hearts of men, and gives us a taſte of the opinion you have of your dearneſs to God.

N.C.

I doubt not but they are very dear to God; and that God will reprove even Kings for their ſakes, ſaying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my Prophets no harm.

You have a ſtrong Faith. But methinks before you ſuffer it to grow to ſuch a Confidence, you ſhould ſoberly conſider whether ſome of thoſe precious ones may not be anointed—; that make godlineſs a pretence for their Diſobedience to Kings, and Saucineſs towards their betters; that flatter you into a conceit of your godlineſs, that you may flatter them with the title of the Prophets of the Lord, To me it is no mean argument of their want of Integrity, that they teach you no better, and connive at all this Wickedneſs, and never (that I could hear of) lay bare, and rebuke theſe Sins that reign ſo much among your Party. Tell me whence came all the ſcurrilous Pamphlets that are abroad? Out of what Shop do the venomous Libels fly about the Town? Who are they that not only deſpiſe our Clergy, but put open affronts on them as they quietly and ſoberly walk the Streets? That have the Poiſon of Aſps under their Lips, and ſpit it in good mens faces? That in a fearful manner, ſcorn and revile their Holy Calling, and ſalute them every where with the ordinary name of Baal's Prieſts? Are they not all bred up in your Churches? Do they not all frequent your Meetings? And do not by-ſtanders of your Perſwaſion laugh and rejoyce when they ſee this Contempt poured on them? Do they not ſeem to encourage thoſe by their Applauſes, who are ſo rude and inſolent in their behaviour toward good men? And yet theſe ſtile themſelves the godly, and take it ill if we do not think them ſo. Theſe you are content to wink at, that your Congregations may be full. Your Miniſters dare not preach down theſe Abuſes; leſt they ſhould be thought to be friends to Baal.

N.C.

There will be ſome bad people every where.

I am glad to hear you ſay ſo. By and by you will confeſs that there may be alſo goo… people every where, and that ſome of our Miniſters may be good; though your Revilers make no difference, but if they ſee a man in a Caſſock, preſently throw dirt in his face, and call him a Limb of Anti-Chriſt, or ſome ſuch thing. So bruitiſh and outragious are the Paſſions of this Heady people. So wonderfully do they profit in your School in thoſe new Vertues of Hatred to ancient Cuſtoms and Habits, though never ſo innocent, and Hatred or Anger to all that are not of their Way. For ſuch is the Fire, I have ſometimes ſeen in their Eyes, when they meet one of our Miniſters, that one would think they had a mind to burn them up. And I make no doubt they would call upon your Prophets, if they were but like Elijah, to call for Fire down from Heaven to conſume us. You may condemn their Folly perhaps; but whatſoever you are pleaſed to ſay, they are the moſt Zealous of your Party, and think themſelves the moſt godly. And for any thing I can hear, they may think ſo ſtill. It not being the manner of your Preaching, to meddle with ſuch things as theſe; nor the time, I doubt, to be named when you heard a Sermon to reprove the ſcurrilous and railing language of ſome among you againſt the Engliſh Clergy. No, the way hath been, and I doubt ſtill continues, to declaim only againſt Superſtition, and Formality, and Will-worſhip, and ſometimes againſt Morality; and then to exhort the people to prize Ordinances, and ſeek after pure Ordinances, and admit of no humane Mixtures. But whileſt the poor people are thus afrighted, and made exceeding timorous leſt they ſhould be righteous over-much, by following vain Traditions of men; they have little or no fear wrought in them of being wicked over-much, by Schiſm, and Diſobedience, and letting looſe their furious Paſſions and unruly Tongues; by reviling God's Miniſters, nay, by deſpiſing Governments, and ſpeaking evil of Dignities.

N.C.

I think they ſhould be taught to fear theſe things more than they do.

I, and they ſhould be taught not to think themſelves godly too ſoon. Whereas the manner hath been quite contrary, to breed in them an opinion of their Piety, if they be but a praying people, and follow Ordinances, and frequent private meetings. And when they are taught on ſuch eaſie terms to call themſelves gracious and godly, then your Miniſters make this an Argument againſt us, that all or moſt of the Godly are on their ſide. And now it comes into my mind, that this was the Pretence wherewith they countenanced the late Rebellion, as now I ſuppoſe, you will give us leave to call it. But to let you ſee how idle and frivolous ſuch Arguments were, and that they might ſerve any bodies purpoſe; it was not long before you were numbred among the ungodly: For the Army learnt to call themſelvs the only godly party, and in a manner excluded you. Though I believe You would have lik'd it well enough, if a Painter had drawn a man with his Eyes lifted up to Heaven and one hand on his Breaſt, with the other Hand in his Neighbors purſe, or cutting of his Throat; and writ over it this Inſcription, An Army-Saint. I mean, you thought them an ungodly & untoward generation. But whatſoever you thought, the Argument was as plauſible & ſuccesful for them as it had been & is for you: for the people were ſtrangely drawn away by it. This cut off the King's Head; that it was for the ſafety of the godly. This was in a fair way to keep our preſent Soveraign from returning to us; that thoſe that feared the Lord were againſt it, and would be undone by it. And I find that to this day this pretence of godlineſs hath left an impreſſion on ſome peoples minds, and excuſes all thoſe impieties. For not long ſince I heard one commending them for a very gracious people: and when it was ſoberly objected, that they were unjuſt, & even Cruel, and Falſe, and Turbulent, and Diſobedient to their own Governors, and Troublers of the Nation; it was anſwered, that notwithſtanding all theſe things, there was more Grace among them than there is to be found now-adays. Meaning, I ſuppoſe, by their Grace, that they were a praying people, and much in ſeeking God. As if S. Paul did not underſtand himſelf when he told us, that the Grace of God teaches us to deny ungodlineſs and all Worldly Luſts; and to live ſoberly, righteouſly, and godly in the World. And to deal Freely with you; I am much afraid there are many of this kind of Godly people whom you aſſociate your ſelves withal, I am ſure, ſome of thoſe who were Patrons to their wickedneſs, and allowed, if not juſtified, the killing of the KING, and were Army-Chaplains; and now private Preachers, and not a little adored.

N.C.

Well, no more of this. For I am ſatisfied we are not the only Godly. But yet I am ſtill inclined to think there is more of the Power of Godlineſs to be found among us, than any where elſe.

I alwayes thought the Power of Godlineſs did not conſiſt in words, but in a great deal of Humility, and a great meaſure of Charity; together with exact Juſtice and Meekneſs, and Peaceableneſs, and purity of Heart. Now, me-thinks, there is not ſuch ſtore of this among you as one would expect; at leaſt, not more than we ſee in other people.

N.C.

Do you call this the Power of Godlineſs?

Yes; and ſo doth the Apoſtle, as will appear, if you think good that we conſider ſeriouſly together the Character he gives of thoſe that deny the Power of Godlineſs, and content themſelves only with the ſhew or Image of it, which he calls the Form of Godlineſs.

N.C.

With all my heart. For that will be a better way of ſpending our time, and edifying one another, than the continuing Diſpute will be.

You ſay very well, and I love you for that ſenſe of Piety which you diſcover. Let's take the Book then, and read what S. Paul teaches us in 2 Tim. 3.2, 3.4, &c. concerning them that want the Power, and have only the Form of Godlineſs. Firſt, he tells us, they are lovers of themſelves, i. e. as I underſtand it, ſtudy above all things, their own Profit, Credit, Honour, and Pleaſure. From which (as the Root of wickedneſs) they grow to be Covetous, or Lovers of Money; and then Boaſters, that is, people who magnifie themſelves, arrogating to themſelves more, than is their due, and bragging they can do that, which they are not able to perform. From whence it follows that they are Proud, that is, Contemners and Deſpiſers of others; who perhaps are better, than themſelves: Blaſphemers, i.e. of Magiſtrates & Dignities, (upon a pretence, perhaps, that they have nothing of God in them, or are Antichriſtian: Diſobedient to their Natural Parents, (as ſome now are, becauſe they ſay, they are unſanctified and unregenerate people:) Ʋnthankful to their Benefactors: Ʋnholy and impure Wretches, or, as ſome have expounded it to me, ſuch as make no difference between things Sacred and Profane: without Natural Affection, viz. to their Children or Kindred, as well as Parents: Truce-breakers, or perfidious people, whom no Bond or Tie can hold to their Promiſes or Duty: Falſe-accuſers, or ſuch as calumniate, and tell falſe and deviſed Stories, to the prejudice of thoſe whom they do not love, or ſet themſelves to oppoſe: Incontinent, which I have been told, ſignifies ſuch as have no Power over themſelves and their Paſſions, and as are inconſiſtent with themſelves: Fierce, that is, Bloudy-minded men, and ſuch whom no Kindneſs, no Benefits can reconcile to Society, Friendſhip or Modeſty, Deſpiſers of thoſe who are good, (i. e. that have no Kindneſs for men who are ſolidly Good,) or, as our Tranſlation ſeems to take it, ſuch as contemn true Vertue, as a mean thing: Traitors, that is, ſuch as will betray their beſt Friends and Companions, for to ſerve their own Intereſt: Hea…y, that is, raſh, inconſiderate, impudent and bold people; ready for any bad Deſign: High-minded, or men puft up and ſwoln with an Opinion of themſelves, of their own Knowledg, ſuppoſe, or Piety: Lovers of Pleaſure more than lovers of God, or ſuch as pretend to God, only to have a better opportunity to ſatisfie their deſires of pleaſure. And in concluſion, he tells us that they were of this number who in thoſe days crept into folks houſes, and inſinuated themſelves into the Favour of ſilly Women; having a deſign either upon their Wealth, or their Chaſtity. And Women they were for their turn; being led away with divers Luſts, ever learning, and never coming to the knowledge of the truth; that is, always frequenting Chriſtian Aſſemblies, but getting no good by them: or elſe opening their Ears to every Wind of Doctrin, deſiring ſtill to hear ſome new thing, running from place to place where any novel Teachers were: but remaining juſt as wiſe as they were before, and not a whit the better for all the Sermons they heard.

N.C.

Me thinks you have made me a ſhort Sermon; at leaſt I have heard the Doctrinal part of it: would you would come to the Uſe and tell me what you gather from hence.

I gather two things, and leave you to gather the reſt.

N.C.

What are they?

Firſt, that all this Wickedneſs which I have deſcribed from the Apoſtle will conſiſt with a Form or ſhew of Godlineſs. For that's a part of the character of theſe very men, verſ. 5. Having a Form of Godlineſs, &c. Secondly, I collect from hence, that, thoſe men have the Power of godlineſs who are of a diſpoſition quite oppoſite to them now named: Such, I mean, as deny themſelvs for God's and their Neighbor's ſake; that ſet not their hearts upon getting Riches; that are humble and modeſt; that reverence their Governors, and ſtudy in word and deed to preſerve their Authority; that honour their Parents, though not of their Opinion, or perhaps ungodly; that are ſenſible of Benefits, and grateful to their Benefactors; that ſtudy Purity and Chaſtity; that are kind and tenderly-affected to their Relations; that keep their Faith, and perform their Promiſes, though to their own damage; that are eaſily reconciled, if they have been groſly injured; that ſpeak well if they can, of their Neighbours, and are not ready to believe every Story of them; that endeavor to preſerve an even Temper; that command their paſſions, are ſteady and uniform in their Actions; that are meek and ſubmiſſive; peaceable and ſociable; that love Vertue whereſoever they ſee it, and do not deſpiſe or reproach it under the name of meer Morality; that are faithful to their Truſt; ſober, adviſed and conſiderate in their Ʋndertakings; that have no high Opinion of themſelves, and love God above all things; that chooſe rather to keep at home, and mind their own Concerns, than to be prying into the Secrets of their Neighbors Houſes; that have no other Deſign upon any, either Man or Woman, than to make them good; and further their increaſe in true Wiſdom. Theſe, and ſuch like men in whatſoever place you find them, undoubtedly have the Power of Godlineſs, though they ſhould not talk of it ſo much, as others?

N. C.

I ſee you are able to preach, if you liſt.

If I ſhould think ſo, I ſhould run into the company of thoſe proud and high-minded men, whom I now ſpake of. I can only repeat a good Sermon to you, which I have heard.

N. C.

You would have me preach, or at leaſt make a piece of a Sermon; for you told me you would leave me to gather the reſt from your diſcourſe.

It's profitable to Preach to your ſelf ſuch things as you read and hear, and to preſs upon your Heart ſuch Truths, as you cannot but obſerve plainly follow from them, though they were not named.

N. C.

And what do you think I ſhould gather from what I have heard you ſay?

I told you it would be beſt to leave you to conſider what farther Uſe is to be made of this Character. But if you would have me direct you; then you may be pleaſed to conſider, when you are alone by your ſelf, whether any part of it belong to thoſe, whom you call Godly or to thoſe whom we eſteem ſo: or, which is all one, you may conſider whether thoſe oppoſite Qualities, wherein I told you the Power of godlineſs conſiſts, be to be found moſt among your, or our Godly. Always carrying this in your mind, that we do not call all them Godly who are of our Party, as you are wont to do. Our Miniſters, I aſſure you, will not allow them to enjoy this name, who are Lovers of themſelves, Covetous, Boaſters, Proud, Falſe, Fierce, Heady, &c. But whether many ſuch do not paſs with you for Godly men, and cry out againſt the Form of Godlineſs, while they have little elſe, I leave you to judg.

N. C.

Truly, I thought once that the Power of Godlineſs had conſiſted in keeping the Sabbath, in repeating Sermons, having a Gift of Prayer, and uſing it in our Families, treaſuring up and communicating Experiences, and meeting together to exerciſe our Gifts. And, now it comes into my mind on a ſudden, this is a thing which hath made me fear you want at leaſt a great deal of the power of Godlineſs, that you never keep a Day together.

Strange! I thought on the Contrary, that this had been one of our Accuſations; our keeping too many days.

N. C.

Really, I never heard that any of you kept one.

What did you never hear, that we have a Holy-day at leſt once a MonethMonth, and ſometimes more, which we always obſerve?

N. C.

Piſh! I perceive you underſtand not my Language. I mean, that we keep a private Day together, which we ſet apart for Prayer, and humbling our ſelves before God, and hearing the Word.

Alas! How ſhould I gueſs at your meaning! when as I thought you would have kept no Days but that of God's appointing.

N. C.

Yes, we can keep other Days, and think we ought, at leaſt that there is much Religion in it.

Why then will you not keep thoſe which your Governors appoint? Have you power to appoint Days, and not they? I am ſorry to ſee your partiality, and that you are ſo full of Humour, as not to do things when you are bidden, and yet to do the ſame when you are not bidden, nay, when you are forbidden.

N. C.

O, but we do not keep days, as you do.

What's that to the Purpoſe? Seeing what we do is good, why ſhould you not joyn with us in it? You pray, and ſo do we: You read the Scriptures and ſo do we: you give thanks to God, and that's part of our Buſineſs. Only we do it in publick, and you in private; we when our Governors would have us, and you when it pleaſes your ſelves.

N. C.

We not only pray, but hear a Sermon alſo, when we keep our Days.

So you may at ſome of our Churches, if you pleaſe, every Holy-day. But what a fooliſh Conceit is this, to think that this makes a Day not to be well obſerved, if we want a Sermon? This is a piece of the Superſtition I told you of. For was it not always the chief Deſign of thoſe Days we obſerve, to acknowledg God, to praiſe him in all his wonderful Works, to meditate on his admirable mercy in ſending his Son, in giving him to dy for us, in raiſing him from the dead, in ſending the Holy Ghoſt, and after that the bleſſed Apoſtles to preach the Goſpel? And is not this ſufficient work for one Day? Or cannot we meditate upon the holy Scriptures the read, or on the Sermon we heard the Lord's Day before; but we muſt needs have a new Sermon, or elſe think God is not glorified, nor well pleaſed? I am amazed at the groſs Abſurdity of ſuch Fancies.

N. C.

You may be ſo; but we ſhall never leave them, nor come to Church, till you have more than Common prayer on thoſe Days.

I cannot underſtand any Reaſon for that Reſolution. For if you be not ſatisfied with our Service, but yet muſt needs have ſomething elſe; why do you not come to the publick Prayers & Praiſes firſt and then make up their Defects (as you conceive) in your private Meetings? Or why do you not ſeek and endeavour that theſe dayes may be kept more Religiouſly, ſeeing publick Praiſing God is far better than private, and doth him more honour in the World? For my part, I verily think (and I ſpeak it ſincerely) that if you would come to Church, and there joyn in the publick Service of God, and then go home, and ſpend ſome other part of the Day in Catechiſing your Children, inſtructing your Servants, teaching them among other matters, how to uſe the Liberty You then allow them diſcreetly and ſoberly, and in viſiting, inviting or relieving your poor Neighbours; it would be a thing far more acceptable to God, and more for the honour of Chriſtian Religion, and the good of Souls, than a whole day of Prayer and hearing Sermons.

N. C.

I am not yet of that mind.

Why? look over all the Families you know, and ſee if many of them be not miſerably neglected, whilſt their Maſters and Miſtreſſes are keeping Dayes, as you call it. And then tell me, whether they ſpend their time to ſo much Profit and true Comfort as I would have them.

N. C.

I think ſome may be too negligent.

Why do not your Miniſters chide them, and exhort the good Women to keep more at home, & not, under a notion of Religion, neglect their neceſſary Duties? It were eaſy to tell you of ſome who are the worſt Wives, and Mothers, and Miſtreſſes, in the Pariſh, meerly upon this account, that moſt of their time hath been taken up in gadding about to thoſe private Exerciſes. Sometimes you are mightily offended at our Holydays upon this account, that they take up too much of mens times from their Buſineſs; & yet you can be content to ſee a Day ſet a-part every Week, if not oftner, by your ſelves, to the great Dammage of many Families. And ſo, when the Fit is upon you, we are told that Magiſtrates ought not to bind the people to obſerve Days, which is to make that neceſſary which God hath left free: But yet notwithſtanding you your ſelves ſtick not to lay ſuch a neceſſity upon men of obſerving Dayes, now and then, as if there were a Divine Commandment for it; for you think they have no Religion, or want the Power of it, that do not. And what a ſtir do you keep to have Lectures on the Week-days; as if we were dead, and had but a Name to live, unleſs we hear a Sermon or two, then? whereas very good Chriſtians, perhaps, have no more time to ſpare from their honeſt Imployments, than they ought to beſtow in private Prayer and Meditation; digeſting of what they heard the Sunday before; ſearching ſeriouſly into their Conſciences, and conſtant Examination of their Lives and Actions; in conferring with their Miniſters about their Doubts, or thoſe Indiſpoſitions, or, perhaps, ill Inclinations, which they find in their Souls; in Comforting the poor and the ſick; in Endeavouring to reconcile Differences among Neighbors; in conſulting how to advance the publick Good either of the City or Town where they live, and diſcharging the publick Office well, to which they may be called. If after all this done, they can find any leiſure to hear a Sermon, who is there that forbids it? We are only afraid, leſt whilſt the neceſſity of that is ſo much urged, things more neceſſary ſhould be neglected.

N. C.

You ſay a great many notable things; but yet to me you ſeem a man of a ſlight Spirit, which you betray when you ſpeak of theſe weighty matters.

If you mean that I ſlight many of thoſe things which you think matters of great weight and moment; I cannot contradict you. But why you ſhould thence conclude, I have a ſlight Spirit, I ſee no cauſe: For therefore I ſlight them, becauſe I have throughly conſider'd and examin'd them, and find there is nothing but Fanſie or Superſtition at the bottom of them. Miſtake me not; your honeſt Affections I do not ſlight, but the things to which you are ſo affected. As for inſtance, you abound in inſignificant Phraſes, and Scripture-Expreſſions miſapplied: You have a great many Superſtitious Conceits & Opinions, and oftimes alledg your Experiences very abſurdly—

N. C.

Nay, now you diſcover your ſelf. Doth not this argue a profane Spirit, to ſlight Experiences, when the Apoſtle mentions Chriſtian Experience as a part of our Rejoycing and Glory? Rom. 5.4.

I do not ſlight his Experiences, but yours; and not all of yours neither. For if by your Experience you meant, that you had made a proof of your Conſtancy and Faithfulneſs to Chriſt, by patient enduring of any Affliction for Righteouſneſs ſake; and made a Trial alſo of his Faithfulneſs, in performing his promiſes of giving us Strength, Support, and Comfort, (which I conceive is the Apoſtle's meaning:) I ſhould accuſe my ſelf of great Profaneneſs ſhould I ſlight it. But when you will needs give me this word for a proof of a thing of which I know you have no Experience, and perhaps can have none; and when you alledg your Experience in a matter of Reaſon, and in effect ſay no more than this, I pray believe me: you muſt not take it ill, if I make light of it. As for example, when you will tell us, you find by Experience that you are in the right way; it is a thing that may be entertain'd with a ſmile. It is in truth no better than to ſay, you may take my word for it. For whether you be in the right or no, is not to be known by Experience, but by Reaſon. In like manner, if you tell me you find by Experience your Miniſter is a good man becauſe he doth you good; it is a frivolous Argument, and I may be allow'd to ſlight it; for it cannot be known by your Experience, what he is. You can only know by your Experience, that you are made better; but he may be bad enough notwithſtanding. As the Quakers were reform'd of Cheating and Couſenage in ſome places by thoſe, who there is great reaſon to ſuſpect, were cheating knaves themſelves.

N. C.

But I may know by Experience whether the things he preaches be true or no.

It will deceive you, if you rely upon that Proof. For you may have ſome good done you by falſe Principles. Nay, thoſe very Principles may make you do ſome things well, which ſhall make you do other things ill.

N. C.

That's ſtrange.

Not ſo ſtrange, as true. For what Principle was it that led the Quakers to be juſt in their dealing?

N. C.

That they ought to follow the Light within them.

This led them alſo to be rude and clowniſh, and diſreſpectful to Governors. For all is not Reaſon, that is in us: there is a world of Fanſie alſo: and the Flaſhes of this now and then are very ſudden and amazing; juſt like Lightning out of a Cloud. By this they find they were miſ-led in many things, which they have now forſaken; being content to wear Hatbands and Ribbons too, which they ſo much at the firſt abominated.

N. C.

I take them to be a deluded people.

And yet they are led, they will tell you, by Experience. For they found themſelvs amended by entring into that Religion, whereas they cheated and couſened in all other Forms wherin they were before. And therefore do not tell me any more of the good you have got by your private meetings, nor make it an argument of their Lawfulneſs. For the ſame Argument will be uſed againſt your ſelvs by the Quakers; who will tell you, God is in no private Meetings but only theirs, for otherwhere they could never find him. Take your choice: and either let it alone your ſelves, or elſe allow it them. It will either ſerve both, or neither.

N. C.

But I have ſeen you ſmile, if one bring his Experience to prove the truth of Chriſtian Religion.

Yes, and very deſervedly: Becauſe the Ground upon which we believe it to be true, cannot be known by Experience; nor is your Experience of any thing in it a Ground for any other man to believe it. You cannot know, for inſtance, by your Experience, that our Saviour was born of a Virgin, that the Holy Ghoſt came upon him at his Baptiſm with a Voice from Heaven, ſaying, This is my well-beloved Son, in whom I am well pleaſed. You cannot know by that means that he dyed, that he roſe the third day, that he went to Heaven forty dayes after, and after ten dayes more gave the Holy Ghoſt; and that S. Paul was ſtruck blind with the Glory of our Saviour, whom … ſaw and heard, and was ſent by him to preach the Goſpel.

Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist, Discourse (3 of 4)