Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist Part 2, Text (4 of 5)

Friendly Debate with Non-Conformist Part 2 · Text (4 of 5)

p. 146N.C.

How come you by more knowledg than other folk in this matter? Can you tell what the Donatiſts ſaid?

C.

Yes, without reading St. Auſtin. For I can believe an old Engliſh Divine who lived above half an Age ſince, that acquainted me with this; and ſhewed withall that thoſe proud people had the ſame anſwer to this place from that Father,Mr. G. Gyffard. plain Declaration that our Browniſts are full Donatiſts. p. 19. An. 1590. which I have now given you. Theſe words, ſaith he, They underſtanding carnally, have cut themſelves into ſo many diviſions, into little bits; in this Africa alone. For they do not underſtand that no man is joyned with Infidels, but he that commits the ſins of Pagans, or elſe doth favour thoſe that do ſuch things, &c. And who hath fellowſhip with darkneſs, but he that by the darkneſs of his conſent, forſaking Chriſt, doth follow Belial? Who puts his part with Inſidels, but he which is partaker of that Infidelity? For that way he▪ ceaſeth to be the Temple of God; neither otherways doth he joyn himſelf to Idols.

N. C.

I am convinced of this. But may we not gather by proportion, that we ought to ſeparate from the wicked ſort of Chriſtians though it be not here intended?

p. 147C.

Hear what Mr. John Geree anſwers to this. No. Reſolution of 10 Caſes 1644.All that can be inferred is, that we ſhould avoid needleſs familiarity with the wicked, and all ſ ciety in ſin: To keep them from the Sacrament if we can. But if it be not in our Power; not to omit the Sacrament, becauſe they partake of it. In which he followed the reſolution of St. Auſtin who immediately after the words before mentioned, adds theſe as my Author tells me;B. 2. againſt Parmen. cap. 18. And they which are the Temples of the living God, and in the midſt of a crooked and perverſe Generation appear as lights in the world, having the word of life; nothing doth infect them, which they tolerate for Ʋnities ſake; nor are they pent up in any ſtraight, becauſe God doth dwell in them and walk in them. And they depart in the mean time out of the evil, and are ſeparate, at leaſt, in heart; leſt haply while they would ſeparate by the ſedition of Schiſm, they ſhould rather be ſpiritually ſeparated from the good, than carporally from the bad. This old Divine alſo admoniſhes us very well out of the ſame. Father, that when the multitude of the Aſſemblies of the Church are free from that crime to which Excommunication is denounced, it is very healthful; and becauſe ſo many avoid him▪ he will be ſtricken with fear, and healed through ſhame. But when the ſame ſickneſs hath taken hold of very many, there remains nothing elſe to the good, but ſorrow and be wailing; that ſo they may eſcape that deſtruction which is like to come on the multitude of the wicked. And in very deed, ſaith he, if the contagion of ſinning hath invaded the multitude, the ſevere mercy of Divine diſcipline is neceſſary: but the counſel or enterpriſes of ſeparation are both vain and pernicious, yea ſacrilegious; becauſe then they become both impious p. 148and proud; and give more trouble to the good which are weak, than they correct the ſturdy ones who are evil. And concluding this point, he gives this Advice; Let a man therefore with Mercy correct what he can; and that which he cannot, let him bear with patience: And with love let him mourn and lament, until He from above do either redreſs and amend; or elſe differr until the harveſt to root out the tares, and to winnow out the chaff. And here he alledges the example of St. Cyprian, that holy Martyr, who had been Biſhop of Carthage, and deſcribes the multitude as full of groſs ſins, yea many of his fellow Biſhops as ſpotted with very foul crimes; but yet he communicated with them (though not in their ſins which he evermore reprehended, yet) in the Sacraments and holy Worſhip of God. Nay, he ſhews that our Saviour himſelf did not ſeparate in Body from the Phariſees and Saduces and multitude of common people, but met with them at the Temple: And it is alſo plain, that the African Church in St. Auſtin's dayes beſides their evil manners, had ſome other blemiſhes which cannot be charged on ours; for by his own complaint it appears, there were ſuch a multitude of Rites and Ceremonies then in uſe, that they were a very great burden, and the Church was oppreſſed and groaned under them. And therefore I think your preciſeneſs in ſeparating from us is more like the diſdainful and proud Religion of the Scribes and Phariſees; than the humble and charitable purity of our bleſſed Saviour.

N. C.

If you take theſe old Fathers for your Guides, they will lead you I now not whither. They held many ſtrange Opinions.

C.

I ſuppoſe you would ſeparate from them too, if they were alive. But what think you of Mr. Calvin? p. 149He is a more modern Father, and you may think perhaps more inlightned; will you ſtand to his judgment?

N. C.

Why? What ſays he?

C.

He tells you, that, Whereſoever the Goſpel is purely preached and the Sacraments adminiſtred according to the inſtitution of Chriſt, there is the Church of God.Inſtit. Book 4. Cap. 1. Sect. 9. And if the very multitude hath and doth honour theſe; it deſerves without doubt to be eſteemed and judged a Church; becauſe it is certain that theſe things are not without fruit. And if you look a litle further to the next Section he repeats it again with much earneſtneſs.Sect. 10. There appears (in ſuch a multitude as he mentioned before) neither a deceitful nor doubtful face of a Church: Of which no man may either deſpiſe the Authority, or refuſe the Admonitions, or reſiſt the Counſels, or mock at the Corrections; much leſs depart from it, break in ſunder the Unity of it, and go unpuniſhed. For the Lord ſo highly eſteems the Communion of the Church that he counts him for a Traiterous Runaway, and forſaken of Religion, whoſoever ſhall ſtubbornly eſtrange himſelf from any Chriſtian fellowſhip; So that it be ſuch a one as hath a true Miniſtry of the word and Sacraments. He ſo commends the Churches Authority, That when it is violated, he judges his own diminiſhed. Do you hear this?

N. C.

Yes. But—

C.

To prevent all your exceptions, look further into the 12. Sect. and there he will tell you that the fellowſhip of ſuch a Church is never to be caſt off, though it ſwarm full of many faults. Yea, and there may be ſome faultineſs crept into it in the Adminiſtration, p. 150either of Doctrine or of the Sacraments, yet it ought not to eſtrange us from the Communion of it. For all the Articles be not of one ſort: And therefore we ought not raſhly for every light diſſention forſake the Church, &c. But then, in the next he tells you, that in bearing with the imperfections of life, our gentle tenderneſs ought to go much further. And in the next but one, that it is one thing to ſhun the private company of a wicked man; and another for hatred of ſuch to forſake the Communion of the whole Church: Which is to be more rigorous than St. Paul. And although this temptation to forſake the Church may by an indiſcreet zeal of righteouſneſs, Sect. 16.enter into the thought of a good man; yet we ſhall find that too much preciſeneſs grows rather out of Pride, Diſdainfulneſs, and falſe Opinion of holineſs; than of true holineſs and true zeal thereof. They that are bolder than others, and as it were the Standart-bearers to make any departing from the Church, for the moſt part do it upon no other cauſe, but their deſpiſing of all men, to boaſt themſelves to be better than others. But I think I had beſt let the reſt alone; leſt you ſay I rail upon godlineſs (of which this Separation is now grown a great note) though in Mr. Calvins words.

N. C.

We are not to mind what men ſay? Nor to have their perſons in admiration.

C.

No? Not what your own Miniſters ſay? Sure their words are another Goſpel with you, or elſe how come you ſo to miſunderſtand the old?

N. C.

They are good men, and ſo we value what they ſay.

C.

I'le ſhew you then that they have ſaid the very ſame in behalf of our Form of Divine Service, that I p. 151did the laſt time we talkt together: And that they condemn this withdrawing from us, which Mr. Bridge makes the mark of a Saint.

N. C.

Pray let it alone: It will be too long.

C.

Let me tell you thus much: That they told their Brethren of New-England heretofore, that if we deny communion with ſuch a Church as ours, there hath been no Church theſe 1400. years with which a Chriſtian might lawfully joyn. Nay,Letter of many Miniſters in Old England requeſting the judgment of their Brethren in New Engl, concerning 9. Poſitions 1637. with their Anſwer 1639. And the Reply 1640: Publiſhed afterward by Mr. Simeon Aſh, and Mr. W. Rathband, 1643. that if ſuch ſcruples as are now in your heads may take place, it will be unlawful to hold communion with any Society under Heaven: And that as for making an Idol of the Common Prayer (which by the way was a phraſe they themſelves made uſe of afterward) it might be as well ſaid, that they made an Idol of their conceived Prayers. And therefore what evil ſpirit is it that now poſſeſſes ſo many of your Presbyterian Miniſters, and hath driven them, as if they were out of their wits, from our Church, and their own Principles, and from all the Churches of Chriſt, that now are or ever were?

N. C.

Pray do not ſay ſo.

C.

They have granted me that for 1400. years there never was any Church, with which we might hold Communion if not with ours: And I will prove that there hath been none for theſe 1668. years.

N. C.

You are ſtrangely bold.

C.

No bolder than Mr. Calvin; who will give you good ſatisfaction, if you read the Chapter to which I referred you, that the Church of the Jewes in our p. 152Saviour's time, and the Apoſtolical Churches afterward, tolerated greater Vices in manners, and fouler Errors in Doctrine, than were in any Church from which in his days a ſeparation was made. And I will ſhew you diſtinctly, either now or when you will require it, that thoſe Churches planted and watered by the Apoſtles, had thoſe Corruptions in Doctrine, Worſhip, Manners, Diſcipline, and Government, which cannot be pretended to be in ours: And yet there was no ſeparation of ſome Members from the reſt: Nay, the Apoſtles, notwithſtanding all theſe, ſpeak very well in general of ſome They call them all Believers and Saints: And none knew then any other Men of the World, and Ʋnbelievers, but Pagans; ſuch as did not acknowledg Jeſus to be the Lord.

N. C.

I am loth to give you ſo great a trouble. But I pray anſwer me one Scripture which ſeems to be againſt this; when it ſaith, The Apoſtles ſeparated the Diſciples, Act. 19.9.

C.

Admirably argued! The Apoſtles, ſeparated the Diſciples from thoſe that were not Diſciples; and therefore we may ſeparate Diſciples from Diſciples.

N. C.

How ſay you?

C.

The Apoſtles, I ſay, were ſent to preach the Goſpel and make Diſciples to Chriſt, baptizing them into his Name who believed on him. Thoſe who would make profeſſion of Chriſt they gathered into a new Church from among the Jewes and Pagans who diſown'd him. And accordingly here in this City having won ſome to believe, and made them Chriſts Diſciples, they ſeparated them from the reſt of the Jewiſh Synagogue, who blaſphemed Chriſt and would acknowledg no other Religion but that of Moſes; to be a diſtinct Society by p. 153themſelves, and no longer Members of the unbelieving Synagogue. From whence you would inferr, that one Chriſtian is to be ſeparated from another Chriſtian, and believers gathered from believers; if one part appear to us Pious, and the other Vicious: Which is juſt as if the Apoſtles, out of thoſe few Diſciples ſeparated from the Jews, had made another leſſer Church, ſeparated from the reſt of the Diſciples.

N. C.

I ſee my Error plainly: And ſhall remember hereafter if I can, not merely to nibble at the Scripture, as you called it, but take it altogether. But Mr. Bridge affrights us horribly with one place, which propheſies he ſayes of the greateſt ſeparation in the latter dayes, that ever was. It is in the Revelation, where the Spirit cryes, Come out of her my people, that you be not partaker of her ſins. There ſhall be the greateſt ſeparation, and that provokes the Antichriſtian party; as his words are, p. 179. of the Book before mention'd.

C.

I remember them very well, Rev. 18.4. But do you ſtill take Mr. Bridge for a Prophet? Have I not ſhown you what a rare Seer he is in the Revelation?

N. C.

I have heard others beſide him mention this place. Mr. Caſe I remember gave us this reaſon to hope that God would be gracious to England, Englands Incouragement to wait on God, p. 69.and that Babylon ſhould ſhortly fall; becauſe he had begun with ſuch a diſtinct and audible voice from Heaven, to call his people out of Babylon, ſaying, Come out of her my people, &c. Rev. 18.4. her Idolatrous bowings, cringings, Altars, Croſſes, and curſed Ceremonies, falſe Worſhip, falſe Doctrine.

C.

You need ſay no more; I have it perfectly in p. 154mind as well as you. And you were wont I know, in thoſe days to believe that they knew the deſigns of Heaven, as well as if they had been Counſellors of State in that kingdom: And conceived the News they told you of what was coming, as ſure and certain, as if they had layn in the Boſom of St. John as he did in our Saviour's. But I hope by this time you are convinced they were only drowſy dreamers, that knew nothing of his Mind: And ſee that they are but like a poor Mouſe which having but one hole, is eaſily caught. Babylon, Babylon was all they had to ſay then, and thither they run now. Theſe are the Magical ſounds, whereby they would aſtoniſh you: The Myſtical words whereby they practiſe all their Sorceries upon you. Stop but your ears againſt theſe, and you are free from their Enchantments; for they can never prove that the Church of England is this Babylon from whence his people are call'd, or that ſhe hath taken ſo much as one ſip, or kiſs'd the Cup of her Fornications.

N. C.

I never askt them, indeed, to prove this.

C.

No, You took it very lovingly upon their word: And ran after thoſe whom you fancied and were inamoured of, with an implicit Faith; as if you had taſted too deep of the Cup your ſelves. If you did but hear them ſay, Myſtery, Myſtery, (the very word you know in the forehead of the whore) preſently you bowed to them, and thought you were under the teachings of an infallible Spirit. And you remember I ſuppoſe very well, that thoſe two and all the reſt of the Miniſters that were wont to preach before the Parliament, and in the greateſt Congregations, generally choſe their texts out of the Old-Teſtament, ſeldom out of the New, unleſs it were the Revelation.

N. C.

What of that?

C.

By which means they furniſhed themſelves in p. 155an abundant meaſure with ſuch Compariſons, as did them admirable ſervice. They could eaſily contrive it ſo, that they might ſeem ſuch a ſelect number as the Jewes, the peculiar people of God; and we like the Aegyptians, and Babylonians, or what other accurſed Nation they pleaſed. And ſo applying all thoſe places which ſpoke of them, to us and our times; they excited in you the ſame hatred againſt us that was in the Jews againſt thoſe Nations; and made you think it as neceſſary to ſeparate from us, as for the Jews to come out of Babylon. Nay by a wonderful Art, or prodigious Inchantment rather (which argues your great dulneſs) they firſt raiſed your fancies, put words into your mouths, and taught you to expect all that they had a mind ſhould ſhortly come to paſs; and then they made the expectation they had wrought in you an argument that it ſhould come to paſs. Thus I remember one of your Divines incouraged the Parliament to expect the overthrow of Babylon, becauſe ſaid he, the General talk throughout the Houſhold among the Domeſticks is, Mr. H. Wilkinſon. Sermon upon Zach. 18.19. pag. 21.that Chriſt their King is coming to take poſſeſſion of his Throne. This they not only whiſper, but ſpeak publickly. Now you know before Kings go to a place, their purpoſe is firſt known among the Domeſtick Servants, and talk't of within doors firſt, and then abroad, and Harbingers prepare the way. This hath been the news throughout the houſhold, and Harbingers have been ſent abroad: It is a ſign that he is not far off; it will not be long before be come.

N. C.

Cannot you repeat a ſentence without laughing?

C.

If you had not been very groſs you would have either laught or been angry at thoſe that did not ſee or would not take notice of the cheat. How came you, I p. 156beſeech you, to whiſper this and afterward talk it abroad, that Chriſt was coming to ſit upon his Throne? Had you any Revelation of it? Did you that are his Domeſticks hear Chriſt the King ſay ſo? Or were you not told ſo by theſe pretended Favourites of his, and believed them without asking whence they had the News?

N. C.

Undoubtedly we never thought of it, till we heard it preach't and proclaimed by them.

C.

And then when your heads were fill'd with this conceit, and they had ſet your tongues a going, and made this the general Talk; they ask't you (if you were apt to deſpond) Why do you doubt of it? Be of good chear; without queſtion he is not far off; for otherwiſe you would never have talk't ſo much of his coming. Which was no more in plain Engliſh than this; you would never have believed us, if it were not ſo. Were not theſe rare devices to ſupport the people's confidence? And were not the people very blind that could not diſcern this foul Impoſture? Never talk now of the Sottiſhneſs of the multitude in the Romiſh Church; for they are couſened by neater Legerdemains than this. Which is juſt as if I ſhould entertain a Child a long time with hopes of Plums and fine Toys coming from ſome Fair: and when he began to doubt of it, ſhould tell him; thou haſt talk't of them ſo long my Child, that without queſtion they will be here by and by; How is it poſſible that thou ſhouldeſt be in ſuch expectation of them, if they were not at hand?

N. C.

No more words: You have ſaid enough to make a Child underſtand the deluſion.

C.

And yet you ſuffered your ſelves to be wheedled and cheated thus over and over again: as if you would croſs the Apoſtles rule, and be Men in Malice, but Children p. 157in underſtanding: You heard your Miniſters pray, for inſtance, that Babylon might fall, and the walls of Jeruſalem be built. And then you heard them ſtirring you up with the greateſt vehemence to give God no reſt till Jeruſalem was made a praiſe in the Earth. And when they had ſet you all on fire with theſe deſires, then you were very well contented to be made believe, it was a certain ſign God would do the buſineſs, becauſe he had put it into your hearts to be ſo earneſt for it. How is it poſſible ſaid they, that there ſhould be ſuch a ſpirit of grace and ſupplication poured ſuddenly on the Nation, if Chriſt were not coming down after it? Since God hath knit the hearts of his people in ſuch a Holy Conſpiracy as it were to beſiege Heaven with their Prayers, all is not to be given for loſt. God aaMr. Caſe, Engl. Incouragement to wait on God, p. 77.hath taken off the bridle of reſtraint from the lips of his people. Pag. 78.The Prayers of Gods people are gone up to Heaven in great Aſſemblies, and have ſurrounded the Throne of Grace: God was never ſo tempted to bow the Heavens and come down to the reſcue of his People. ccPag. 79.God will bow down his ears to them: if they cannot come to God, he will cauſe his ear to come down to them; He will make hard ſhift (as it were) to hear, rather than their prayers be loſt. ddPag. 80..

N. C.

You make me bluſh to think how we have been gull'd.

C.

So you will be ſtill. And it is no wonder they make ſo bold with you; ſince they were ſo bold with God and with his holy Word; which they drew to be inſtrumental in the Cheat. They ſanctified every deſign with ſome text of Scripture or other, p. 158and with many prayers: tili they had defaced the certainty of Holy Writ; and made no other thing of it than a Noſe of Wax, which may be turned any way as will ſerve our purpoſes **Mr. Knew stubs againſt the Herefie of N. N. pag. 61.You need not be angry: they are the words of one eſteemed here tofore; though I know not what thoughts you would have of him, or he of you, if he lived now. If I may paſs my conjecture, I think he would take you to be the very ſpawn of thoſe Browniſts, which were ſo juſtly deteſted in thoſe days, For he would hear the ſame words and phraſes out of your mouths now, which he heard in thoſe days from theirs, who cryed out upon an Idol Church, and Idol Miniſtry, an Idol Government: And, as if they were ſure to carry the cauſe by theſe out-cryes, they never ceaſed to pour out theſe Accuſations, wherewith the people were terribly affrighted. For they poor ſouls never conſidered that if all were granted that ſuch words import, it would not prove a ſeparation ſhould be made from our Aſſemblies. For in what ſenſe can a Miniſter be ſaid to be an Idol, but in ſuch an one as the people of England were called ſo, by one of you?

N. C.

What ſenſe ſhould that be?

C.

I'le repeat his words if you pleaſe; which you may find in a Book put forth on purpoſe to prevent a Peace between the King and Parliament,Plain Engliſh, pag. 27. 1643. upon any terms than ſuch, as ſhould make the King yeild to all their deſires. We have long pretended zeal (ſaith that Author) againſt Idolatry, when in the mean time we are all become one Idol. We have eyes and fee not an Army of Papiſts, not only with permiſſion allowed to uſe their own Religion, but with p. 159Commiſſion appointed (in event) to deſtroy ours. We have Ears and hear not the continual Blaſphemies againſt our God, the reproaches and ſtanders againſt our Parliament. It cannot indeed be ſaid we have mouths and ſpeak not; for they that do leaſt, commonly ſpeak moſt: But I am ſure I may ſay we have Feet and march not; hands have we, and handle not the Sword and Shield.

N. C.

You love ſtill to be rubbing theſe old ſores, as I told you once.

C.

Not I. But I love to rub up your memory, that you may reflect how your beloved phraſes are applied to all purpoſes; and ſee that an Idol Miniſter can ſignifie nothing, but one that doth no more of the work of a Miniſter, than the people, it ſeems, did of your work of fighting againſt the King; till they were alarm'd by ſuch clamours as theſe, and affraid to be thought Idolaters, or an Idol-people. In ſhort, he is ſuch a perſon as the Shepherds of Iſrael were, when they neglected their Office, and took no care of the flock committed to their truſt: From whom notwithſtanding the People of Iſrael were not to withdraw, nor to renounce all communion with them, and obedience to them. But beſides this I would have you know, that if there be any Miniſters among us that are but like Idols and Images of men: there are thoſe (and thanks be to God good ſtore) who hear and ſee and ſpeak, and do the will of God, in the places where they are ſet.

N. C.

I am convinced of all this.

C.

But I pray once more obſerve whether all ſuch Writers and Preachers as Mr. Bridge and the reſt of the ſeparation in which you are ingaged, do not take more pains to prove the danger of Idolatry and the hainouſneſs of the ſin; than to tell you what Idolatry is, and to prove that it is Idolatry to joyn p. 160with us. Their way alwayes was to prove little and to accuſe ſtoutly; to declaim loudly, and not to reaſon; to terrifie the people by a dreadful ſound of words and raiſe great paſſions in them; not to inform their judgments what they are to do and what to avoid. And for that purpoſe nothing hath ever done them better ſervice than Babylon, and Aegypt, and the Golden Calves, and Idol Miniſters, Idol Service and ſuch like words of no certain and determinate meaning. And to ſay the truth, in this, (as Mr. Can himſelf could not but obſerve a great while ago) conſiſts a great difference between Chriſts inſtitutions, and mens inventions: Whatſoever God will have us do or not do, he layes down the ſame openly, preciſely, manifeſtly, but when Satan ſpeaks by his Inſtruments, he ſpeaks ſo ambiguouſly and cloakedly, that one knows not how to take it, nor which way to apply it **So I find his words cited in Mr. J. Balls book againſt him, pag. 88.Which if you will but apply (as Mr. Ball told him) to your own manner of diſputing and alledging teſtimonies, It will diſcover your-ſelves to be the deceivers; who affect ambiguous and equivocal ſpeeches, and ſeek by miſts and foggs of ſtrange and unuſual arguments, and ſentences wreſt to a contrary ſenſe, to blind the eyes and puzzle the underſtandings of the ſimple. For you hide your ſelves under the terms of falſe Church, falſe ☞ Miniſtry, falſe Prophets, falſe Worſhip, flying from Idolatry, taking heed of Idols, &c. which you have taken up in a peculiar ſenſe, and running along in that ſtrain you pervert the Scriptures, wrong Authors, confound things to be diſtinguiſhed, diſpute ſophiſtically; and while you boaſt of clear proofs, divine precepts, examples and practiſes of Forefathers, &c. you only raiſe a duſt p. 161to dazzle the eye. For let the matter be lookt into, and you have neither divine Precept, nor Example of godly Forefathers to juſtifie your ſeparation. What you teach hath been condemned in Schools, cryed down in Sermons, diſallow'd in all the Churches of the Saints from the very beginning to this day.

N. C.

You are heated now to ſome purpoſe.

C.

It is better you ſhould blame my zeal, than I blame my own chilneſs; and I had rather a great deal be condemned of ſome violence, than of a lazy indifference in theſe matters. For who is there that values his Religion, and reverences the Sacred Scriptures, that can hear them thus abuſed, and not have his ſpirit ſtirred in him?

N. C.

There are thoſe who think they ſmell ſomething elſe that ſtirs the ſpirits of your Miniſters.

C.

What ſhould that be?

N.C.

Envy and Anger that any men ſhould be liked better than themſelves. It troubles them to ſee any body leave their Churches and follow our Miniſters; becauſe they would not be thought leſs able than they. And it's poſſible their congregations may be thin, when ſo many have withdrawn themſelves from them.

C.

There is an old ſaying, that No man ever ſought another in the Oven, who had not been there before himſelf. Had not your Preachers been heretofore tickled with the ſight of full Congregations and the fancy of having many followers; they could never think Multitudes and throng'd Aſſemblies (which many do not want) ſo neceſſary to the contentment of any man of worth among us. And were not you intollerably proud and conceited of your ſelves, this imagination could never have entred into your heads, p. 162that it dejects our Miniſters to want your company. What are you that they ſhould tremble to hear you ſay in a threatning manner, We will never hear him more? Are you the only men of Wiſdom; the ſole Beauty of Chriſtian Aſſemblies? Is all their labour loſt, if you be not there to commend it? Are the reſt of the people no better than the walls and the ſeats? Speak man: Is it a great courteſie to a Miniſter that you will be pleaſed to hear him? Muſt he think himſelf beholden to you that you vouchſafe him your preſence? Nay take it for an honour that you come and help to make a numerous Auditory; in which you ſhine, as the precious ſtones in a Ring? O prodigious Vanity! I have heard indeed that ſome of your Miniſters made low reverences to you and ſtudied to humour you, as if they thought you deſerved much of them for honouring their Aſſemblies; but I know none of that mind: If you will not come to hear them; you may ſtay away, and I wonder who will have the worſe of it, you or they?

N. C.

If they are not concern'd in this, why do they keep ſuch a ſtir about Separation? Cannot they let the people do as they will, and ſay nothing? To what purpoſe is it to make ſo great a noiſe about ſuch little things?

C.

How ſay you, little things? Hear Mr. J. Ball I beſeech you (a perſon whom you reverence, I ſuppoſe) who tells you in another Book of his;Trial of the grounds of ſeparation Epiſtle to the Reader. that how ſmall ſoever the things in themſelves may ſeem to be, the evil conſequences that follow thereupon be both many and great. It is no ſmall matter to bury that under the condemnation of falſe worſhip (as Mr. Bridge doth) which the Lord the Author of all Truth, the Determiner p. 163of his true pleaſing and acceptable worſhip, doth allow in his ſervice. It is no ſmall offence to forſake the prayers of the Congregation, to depart from the Table of the Lord, when he calls to feaſt with himſelf; and to break off Society and communion with the Church of Chriſt, to fill the hearts of weak Chriſtians with doubts and diſtractions, as not knowing what to do, or what way to take; to ſpend time in reaſonings and diſputings of this kind which might much more profitably be imployed in the practice of Repentance and holy obedience; to expoſe Religion to contempt, and the truth of God to reproach among them that delight to ſpeak evil. Theſe are ſad effects of this Separation which I oppoſe: Which tends not (as he ſpeaks in his Anſwer to Can,) to the overthrow of Antichriſt, but to the renting of the Church, the diſgrace of Religion, the advancement of Pride, Schiſm, and contention, the offence of the weak, the grief of the Godly who are better ſetled, the hardning of the wicked, and the Recovery or riſing of Antichriſtianiſm. As for other evils (which he mentions not) ſuch as the alienation or abatement of affection even where there is the neareſt bond of Society; and the ſowring of mens minds towards their Governours, in whom they cannot ſo heartily rejoyce as they ought, while they take them to be the impoſers of Idolatrous Ceremonies, or ſinful worſhip; I will not diſcourſe of them neither: Not becauſe they are light matters; but becauſe I have many things to add and would not be too tedious.

N. C.

I remember ſomething in Mr. Ball to this purpoſe, and I confeſs it affected me then, and made me fearful to fall into the ſeparation: Eſpecially p. 164becauſe of another ſad effect which was uſually obſerved in thoſe days to follow theſe Diviſions, among the people of your Perſwaſion.

C.

What is that?

N. C.

I heard ſome ſay, that when men ſaw thoſe who were ſo well conceited of their own knowledg, ſincerity and piety above others; miſtake ſo groſsly, and be ſo rigidly preciſe, as to make that Sin, which God never made ſo; they fell into diſlike even of all the Good that was in them: And diſcerning how little reaſon they had for this ſtrictneſs, preſently imagined they had as little for the ſtrictneſs of their lives and converſation in all other matters.

C.

They told you the truth, and you ſhould conſider it now. There is nothing more difficult than to ſever good and evil when they are mixt together. The good is frequently rejected by ſome for the Evit's ſake; and the evil received by others for the ſake of the good. Men are wont either to like or diſlike all that they ſee in thoſe of whom they conceive a good or ill Opinion. They that love the Piety of ſome Miniſters, fall in love alſo with their Preciſeneſs; and they that hate their Preciſeneſs, may fall into hatred of their Piety.

N. C.

I am glad you will allow any thing that I ſay.

C.

Did you think me of ſo perverſe a humour, as to ſhut my eyes againſt the light of the Sun, becauſe an Enemy opens the Windows to let it in? I will ever embrace and juſtifie a truth, come it from whom it will: And I pray know once for all, that I do not approve of thoſe who out of hatred to the ſuperſtition of your people, brand all that are of ſtrict and Holy Lives, with the Name of Presbyterian, Phanatick or ſome ſuch like. But it would do p. 165well if you would conſider, that which was the occaſion of this diſcourſe; how much hurt you do by being ſo rigid where there is no need. This tempts inconſiderate people on the one ſide to think it is but needleſs ſcrupuloſity that makes you careful in other things which Chriſt indeed hath tyed us unto: at leaſt they will put off your reproofs for their Debaucheries, by accuſing you of more preciſeneſs than you have reaſon for. And on the other ſide; you obſerving the unexcuſeable looſeneſs of ſome that are enemies to your ſuperſtition; are tempted thereby to ſtrengthen your ſelves the more in it, and to ſtand the more ſtifly in your ſeparation from us. So that both ſides are the worſe for theſe differences, and increaſe their evil humours by theſe oppoſitions.

N. C.

I cannot contradict you in this.

C.

I muſt tell you one thing more. While men on both ſides have by their contentions and hatreds gone farther and farther one from the other; they have faln at laſt into moſt fearful Extremities. On your part, ſome have proceeded to that degree of deteſtation, as to condemn us of Idolatry and Antichriſtianiſm, and have faln not only into all the dregs of Browniſm and Anabaptiſm, but into the dotages of the Quakers, and the men of the fifth Kingdom. And on our part, ſome have drawn ſo far from you, as to fall back into Popery, perhaps into Atheiſm, at leaſt indifference about Religion; which are diſeaſes too frequent alſo among your ſelves. If therefore the credit of Religion (as Mr. Ball again ſpeaks) the Glory of God, the Souls of our Brethren be dear to us, What can we do leſs than by a juſt defence of the Truth, ſeek the reclaiming of ſuch as are gone aſtray, the eſtabliſhing of them that are weak in judgment, p. 166but zealouſly affected to the ways of God; ſtop the ſtream of ſeducing, free the Godly from unjuſt imputations, ſettle peace and unity in the Truth among Brethren; I may add, to keep the whole Nation, if it be poſſible, from ſuch dangerous precipies as they are drawing towards.

N. C.

I hope you have a good meaning: But you ſhould conſider that I and the Presbyterians are not withdrawn to ſuch a diſtance from you, as you ſay ſome are. We do not ſeparate from the Congregations as Antichriſtian, nor think that you are not the Churches of Jeſus Chriſt; which was the error of the Browniſts and ſuch like Schiſntaticks.

C.

You ſhould have added, of Mr. Bridge and the reſt of his partakers as I have plainly ſhown you: and I wiſh I could not ſay of ſome Presbyterians too, who once abhorr'd ſuch rents as they have now made. For what did they mean to call us Babylon ſo oft, if they would not have the people think (whatſoever they thought themſelves) that we were Antichriſtian? Expound to me all the paſſages already mentioned; particularly that of Mr. Caſe juſt now cited: Tell me what you think of the diſtinct and audible voice from beaven which they heard to call you to come out of Babylon. Why did he make the war between the King and You,Engl. Incouragements. Pag. 106.126. to be the battle between Michael and his Angels, and the Dragon and his? and the peace which ſome wiſht and was ſometime hoped; a combounding of the buſineſs between Chriſt and Antichriſt? Tell me, if you ſay true, why they took the liberty to tell you, That when Epiſcopacy and Liturgy were reſtored in Scotland, Preface to the Book of Diſcipline.then Willworſhip and damnable Idolatry was ſet up? And to paſs by the ſpeeches of your p. 167railing Vicars, why did Mr. Fr. Woodcock (in his Lectures at St. Lawrence before named) call the Biſhops and their Partakers I cannot tell how oft, the Popiſh faction, the Antichriſtian faction, the Antichriſtian party who ſlew the witneſſes, i. e. ſuſpended and ſilenced ſome Miniſters for not conforming to the Laws? Laſtly, why were theſe Lectures Ordered to be printed; and every Pulpit ſuffered to ſound with ſuch like language? If all theſe things were ſaid in heat, the better to ſtir up the people's paſſions; ſay ſo, and we have done. You ſhall never hear a ſyllable of the late times from me; if you do but ingenuouſly confeſs your raſhneſs, and humble your ſelves for theſe and ſuch like faults. Or if any of you were then of the mind that Epiſcopacy was Antichriſtian (as it is affirm'd in the view of the Covenant, p. 34.) a Limb or Claw of the Beaſt, as the Browniſts-phraſe was, but now are of another opinion; let us know it, that we may rejoyce in the change. Wiſe men ſometimes change Opinions and Counſels, though Fools do not. And they will change for the better as Mr. Bridge hath done for the worſe. For there was a time when he and his Brethren made this Declaration before God and all the world concerning the Engliſh Churches, In which, ſay they, through the grace of God we were converted; that all that Conſcience of the Defilements we conceived to cleave to the True Worſhip of God in them, Apologet. Narration 1643. pag. 6.or of the unwarrantable power in Church-Governours exerciſed therein, did neper work in any of us any other Thought, much leſs Opinion; but that multitudes of the Aſſemblies and Parechial Congregations thereof were the true Churches and Body of Chriſt, and the Miniſtry thereof a true Miniſtry; much leſs did it ever enter into our hearts to p. 168judg them Antichriſtian. Why they ſhould ſay Multitude, and not all ſince they had the ſame form of Divine ſervice and were under the ſame Government, I know not; for it cannot be meant of ſuch. Churches where the Miniſters were choſen by the People, which were but few. Nor am I concern'd to know the ſenſe of thoſe words; but I would gladly know if they pleaſe, why they cannot now ſee multitudes of ſuch Churches; and by what new light or Revelation Mr Bridge hath diſcoverd our Worſhip and Churches to be Antichriſtian, from which the Saints muſt come forth and ſeparate themſelves. Or rather (for now you would have me ſpeak to you alone) why ſo many Prosbyterians withdraw themſelves from our Prayers and Sacraments and hold ſeparate Aſſemblies in oppoſition to ours? You do not make your cauſe the better but the worſe by this acknowledgment, that you do not depart from us as no true Churches of Jeſus Chriſt: and ſtand condemned by your own declared Principles, and all the writings of your Forefathers. To forſake the true Churches of Chriſt ſaith Mr J. Goodwin himſelf) and the Miniſtry thereof, where men have been converted and built up, Letter to Mr. Thomas Good. win from Mr. Jo. Goodwin before he turn'd Independent.and have converted and built up ſo many, with the ſetting up of new Churches, againſt the leave and will of the Civil Magiſtrate, without the conſent of thoſe Churches departed from, and to the ſeandal and grief of ſo many godly Maniſters and Chriſtians, nay the ſcandal of all reformed Churches; and this under the pretence of ſpiritual power and liberty purchaſed for them by Chriſt, had need have a clear and full proof, and not be built only upon ſuch weak & ſlight grounds, as flattering ſimilitudes, witty alluſions, remote conſequences, 0 ſtrain'd and forced interpretations from hard and much controverted Scriptures. What clear proofs he afterward p. 169ſound I cannot tell, but when he had rent himſelf even from the Presbyterian Churches, he could not but give this Honorable Teſtimony to ours;**Sion Coll. viſited. That Travellers from all parts confirm'd, that there was more of the Truth and power of Religion in England under the late Prelatical Government, than in all the Reformed Churches beſides. Therefore I muſt beſeech you again to conſider what ſolid grounds you have for forſaking ſuch a Church as this; which hath been the Mother of ſo many pious ſouls, and extorted ſuch praiſes even from thoſe undutiful children, who out of I know not what humor, lift up their heel againſt her. What ſpot do you ſpy in her now, which you could not diſcern heretofore? Or if there be any, what ſoul Monſter ſhould it be that thus affrights you, if indeed we be not the Beaſt, nor any limb of him? You that profeſs ſo much tenderneſs of Conſcience, ſhould rather methinks, be horribly afraid, ſince you think we are a Church ſtill united to Chriſt, leſt by ſeparating from us, you cut your ſelves off from him, and run in time to the greateſt extremities, and utterly renounce and diſown us. For as Mr. Ball hath well obſerved, They that have once broken off from us, have run from one error into another, after the fond imagination of their heart, till they have daſht themſelves againſt the Rocks. And indeed how can you expect it ſhould be other wiſe. There is but one Body, the Church; but one Lord or Head of the Body, Chriſt: Whoſoever ſeparates from the Body therefore, ſeparates from Chriſt in that reſpect. And if we withdraw our ſelves from him where he graciouſly invites us to feaſt with him may we not juſtly fear he will withdraw himſelf from us, and make us ſeek when we ſhall not find him? This voluntary ſeparation from the Lords, Table and the Prayers of the Congregation, is a p. 170willing excommunication of our ſelves from the Viſible tokens of the Lords preſence and Love. And if it be a grievous ſin in Church Governors to deprive any Member of the Church of all Communion with the Viſible Church upon light and unneceſſarv occaſions, is it not a greater ſin in the Members to deprive themſelves of the ſame Communion upon the like or leſs occaſions? Without all doubt, this ſin will be puniſhed with blindneſs of mind if you perſiſt in it. Such offenders having run (as I am able to prove) from one thing to another with the greateſt confidence, till they came to think themſelves inſpired and full of the Holy-Ghoſt, even when they rail'd and reviled all other Churches: And when thoſe heats ſailed, to think that all Religion was a mere Hypocondriacal Deluſion. This Mr. Calvin aſſured you long ago would be the fate of Separatiſts from ſuch a Church as Ours; Becauſe they diſſolve (ſaith he) the ſacred Bond of Ʋnity; no man ſhall eſcape this juſt puniſhment of his divorce, that he ſhall intoxicate himſelf with the moſt peſtilent errors, and moſt foul dotages. Nay, your own Miniſters could admoniſh you heretofore; that when Religion either by choice or force is propagated in Corners, Advertiſement upon Phil. 1.1. before the Annot on the Bible 1645.Phil 1:1many Heretical Doctrines are hatched and preached, and afterward, it may be, printed too; which had not been conceived nor divulged, if the Authors of them had continued in the ſociety of publique Aſſemblies. And therefore you; me-thinks, above all other men ſhould dread the ſad effects of this new ſeparatition; as much as thoſe men do the Sea, who feel themſelves yet wet, and come forth dropping from a wreck. Remember your own ſad complaints and Lamentations, the Shrieks and the Cries, which p. 171are yet freſh in our ears; Remember what Rocks you daſh't againſt when you had once forſaken our Company and broken the Bond of Ʋnity. Call to mind how many periſhed; and in what danger all were to be loſt. Did you not pray the five Brethren to conſider in the beginning of the Storm, that in their Church-way into, which many were running, there would be no end of Schiſms: But every two or three members if they pleaſed might ſet up a Church by themſelves? Witneſs the rent in that Church where Mr. Bridge and Mr. Sympſon were teachers at Rotterdam. Where Mr. Sympſon, Antapologia. p. 29. p. 117.as Mr. Edwards informs us, having only a Merchant and his Wife, joyning with him at the firſt, ſeparated from Mr. Bridge and ſet up a new Church of their own: Of which a Woman (Mrs. White) was the ſoundreſs as Mr. Bridge himſelf hath ſaid. And when they were thus torn in ſunder, both parts of the Diviſion fell together by the cars among themſelves. There was a new rent in Mr. Sympſons company, and Mr. Ward, colleague to Mr. Bridge, was depoſed from his Miniſtry and office by Mr. Bridge his Church, for ſome frivolous differences. And ſuch was the bitterneſs, revilings and reproaches expreſſed in the letters that paſſed between them, that the Readers ears would tingle ſhould he hear them. In ſhort, the Jews and the Samaritans were not greater Enemies, than theſe were one to another; as my Author affirms.

N. C.

Mr. Edwards you mean.

C.

Yes and I hope you think him a good one now, as you did heretofore. If not, I can juſtifie what he ſayes out of a learned Dutch writer if you pleaſe.

N. C.

I am not much concern'd about this.

p. 172C.

But you are concern'd to keep in mind theſe ſcandals in ſeparate Congregations. And it will do you no hurt, I am ſure, to reflect a great deal farther back; and conſider what work the ancient Separatiſts of our Nation made in the ſame Country: Johnſon and Ainſworth fell out at Amſterdam, and their Congregation was divided into two, one of which excommunicated the other. The two Johnſons alſo, though Brethren in nature as well as Religion, fell into ſuch a fiery contention upon a ſmall occaſion, that George the younger, became a Libeller and loaded his Brother and others, with many reproaches, and that in Print; to remain for ever. The Elder broke fellowſhip with him and with his own Father (who took part with George and curfed the other with all the curſes in Gods Book) and this breach was confirm'd by the heavy ſentence of Excommunication, and both Father and Brother delivered up to the Devil. But then at Leiden, J. Smith condemned them all, and accuſed them of Idolatry; telling them that their Conſtitution was as very a Harlot as either her Mother England, or Grandmother Rome; and that the Separation was the youngeſt and faireſt daughter of Rome the Harlot. The reaſon was, becauſe they look't into their Bibles when they preach't, and into the Pſalter when they ſung; For the Holy Scriptures, he ſaid, were not to be retained as helps before the eyes in time of worſhip, and particularly that it was unlawful to have a Book before them in ſinging of Pſalms. Beſides, their Government he thought was Antichriſtian; becauſe they joyned to Paſtors, other Doctors and Rectors, which was an human invention. And ſo he fell to the Anabaptiſts; where he made alſo a new ſect, by baptizing himſelf if you pleaſe to have ſome of his words, perhaps they may be uſeful to you; When Popiſh prelacy, ſaith he, was ſuppreſſed, and the Triformed p. 173Prebytery (viz. Paſtors, Teachers, and Elders) ſubſtituted;In his Book called, the Differences of the Churches of the Sepation. one Antichriſt was put down, and another ſet up in his place: or the Beaſt was ſuppreſſed and his Image advanced. And therefore, as they that ſubmit to the Prelacy are ſubject to that wo of Worſhipping the Beaſt; ſo they that ſubmit to the Triform'd Presbytery, are in like manner liable to that wo, denounced againſt them that worſhip the Image of the Beaſt.

N. C.

I perceive what you are going to ſay: you would have me mark again, how every Party paint their Oppoſites in the ſhape of this ugly Beaſt; to terrifie ſimple people with it, as we do children with Bug-bears.

C.

And whoſoever reads and conſiders theſe things will be, I think, of old Mr. Bernards mind who told this Nation threeſcore years ago, that * it is better to endure Corruptions in a Church, Mr. R. Bern. Plain Evidences, Ann. 1610. p. 6.than be turmoiled with ſuch Diſtractions, and to be brought into ſuch Confuſions: even a Babel of Languages, of Opinions, of Aſſemblies, of Governing; of Government and what not. It is a bleſſing to be Well; but a greater bleſſing to know it, and ſo to abide. For beſides other Separations which I could tell you of, the iſſue and reſult of all was this; the decay of all true piety, and a turning all Religion into wrangling, cenſuring, and condemning one another. For, as all that have declined to that Schiſm (mark it I beſeech you, if the character do not concern ſome of you) are found to be exceeding proud, Conſutation of the ſeparatiſt agreed upon long ſince by the joynt conſent of many Non-conformiſts Miniſters, publiſhed by Mr. W. Rathband, 1644. part. 4. p. 62and diſdainful towards p. 174all that are contrary-minded; Yea, even ſuch as (before they were infected with that leven) were patterns of all love, modeſty and humility to others: So will they not acknowledg nor reverence any of the moſt excellent graces that God hath given to any of his ſervants among us, nor ſo much reſpect them, as the very Papiſts will do. No, they profeſs greater deteſtation and deſpight to the moſt godly and moſt ſincere men among us, than they do to ſuch as are moſt notorious in Prophaneneſs and Malice to the Truth. And a Divine, more ancient than theſe, gave this remarkable Deſcription of the fruits produced by ſeparate Congregations. Look upon the people, ſaith he, and you ſhall ſee very many who not regarding the chief Chriſtian Virtues and Godly Duties; as namely to be meek, to be patient, to be lowly, to be full of love and mercy, to deal uprightly and juſtly, to guide their families in the fear of God with wholeſome Inſtructions, Mr. G. Gyfford's plain Declaration in which he undertakes not to vindicate every thing in our Church, but that there was no ſufficient cauſe of ſeparation, An. 1590.and to ſtand faſt in the calling in which God hath ſet them; give themſelves wholly to this, even as if it were, the Sum and Pith of Religion, namely, to argue and talk continually againſt matters in the Church, againſt Biſhops and Miniſters, and one againſt another on both ſides. Some are proceeded to this that they will come to the Aſſemblies to hear Sermons and Prayers of the Preacher, but not to the Prayers of the Book: which I take to be a more grievous ſin than many do ſuppoſe. But yet this is not the worſt; For ſundry are gone further and faln into a damnable Schiſm; and the ſame, ſo much the more fearful and dangerous, in that many do not ſee the Foulneſs of it: but rather hold them as godly Chriſtians; and but a little over-ſhot in ſome matters. Which words I have the rather recited, that you may ſee what thoughts the p. 175moſt moderate men heretofore had concerning the 0 way into which you are falling.

N. C.

Truly, I can ſcarce ſee for what end you have told me all theſe old ſtories.

C.

That's ſtrange! I was admoniſhing you of the care that you ſhould take above all others, not to run into theſe dangerous paths: Who have not only heard all theſe things from thoſe before us, but alſo ſeen with your eyes, and felt by dear experience, the great ſwarms of Sects and Hereſies that have come out of ſeparate Congregations; and the miſerable havock they have made of all true Religion and Godlineſs. Now what ſecurity I beſeech you, have any of you, that the Congregations you begin to draw from us, apart to your ſelves; ſhall not break in time into as many little fractions, and produce theſe bitter fruits which I have mentioned? What charm, what power have you to keep out this evil Spirit, which alwayes haunted the ſeparation? All the Authority which your Miniſters may think they have, hath no foundation but the Paſſions of the common people. It depends for the moſt part on the fancies of rude Artiſans, and Ignorant Mechanicks. Theſe will make their Divinity for them; and they muſt ſtill be inventing new conceits to entertain their Imaginations. They are ſervants to ſuch a world of Maſters, that it is evident they have reaſon to fear their own ſide, as much as ours. And when they have done all they can, they are liable to be thought Impoſtors, as oft as any man thinks he is taught of God, and hath a new light ſhining into his mind. Then ſhall you ſee again all thoſe wild fancies fly about which are now in great meaſure fall'n to the ground. Old England may become as mad as the New: And ſuch a woman as Mrs. Hutchinſon, that ſhall take upon her to repeat p. 176your Sermons as ſhe did thoſe of Mr. Cottons; may be more cryed up than all the Miniſters you have.

N. C.

It is impoſſible.

C.

That which hath been done more than once, may be done again. For the Wine of Separation (as two New-England Miniſters call it) hath ſuch a ſpirit in it, as flyes up furiouſly into mens heads, and works with a reſtleſs violence there. It burries them head-long, Mr. Allin and Mr. Shepherds Defence of nine Poſitions. p 27.as they ſpeak, to ſtrange diſtances; that in ſeparating from publick, they ſeparate from private; in ſeparating from corrupt Churches (as no Churches) they ſeparate from the pureſt even thoſe of their own; in ſeparating from pollutions in Gods Ordinances, at laſt they fall to the ſtorming of ſome, if not the utter renouncing of all the Ordinances themſelves. For when raſh and ſudden men, are grown Maſters of their Conſciences; it troubles not them from whom they divide, nor whither they run in ſeparate wayes. At the very next ſtep they are under the Miniſtration of the Spirit, as the Phraſe was in the late times. They live upon Pure and Naked God in themſelves, unclothed of Fleſh and Form. They are riſen and caught up out of the Fleſh into Spirit, out of Form into Power, out of Type into Truth, out of Shadow into Subſtance, out of the Sign into the thing Signified. And ſo they drink wine new in the Kingdom, even new in the Kingdom; not in the Oldneſs of the Letter, but in the Newneſs of the Spirit.

N. C.

I remember how this Wine, as you call it, wrought in the late times, and there are none figh more than we to think of the ſpiritual madneſs that then raged. And I aſſure you we bewail and lament with many tears our preſent Diviſions; and have p. 177kept as many dayes as there are weeks in the year to ſeek the Lord for the healing of our ſad breaches.

C.

To what purpoſe is that, as long as you keep them wide open, by withdrawing your ſelves from the publick Aſſemblies of Gods people? You had better ſpare all that breath; for it is as ridiculous, as if a man ſhould cry and roar under the ſmart of a wound, and yet would not keep himſelf from raking in it continually with his nailes. Why do you not uſe the means of Union if you truly deſire it? What is the cauſe you follow not ſuch Chriſtian Counſel as I made bold the laſt time to leave with you? That would be more effectual than all thoſe Faſts and Prayers, which in truth ſerve only to continue the Diviſion and keep our Wounds gaping. For they are the very things, as you uſe them, which make the Schiſm and yet they perſwade the people, that you are not too blame, but the Biſhops only.

N. C.

O Sir, that you would but lay the Saddle upon the right Horſe. You load us with many accuſations, but the Biſhops are in fault who will not remove the ſubject of theſe contentions. If you were not partial you would admoniſh them, as well as us: And tell them they ought not to ſtand ſo preciſely upon indifferent things, and alter nothing. This would be a ſhort way to remedy all our evils, to take away the things which are offenſive to the weak, and ſo become inconvenient, if not unlawful. And you know who ſaid, that Contentious retaining of Cuſtoms is a turbulent thing as Innovations. Why do you not put them in mind of theſe things, but ſpend your time only in telling us our Duty?

p. 178C.

I am not ſo well conceited of my ſelf as to think I am alike able to judg, what is convenient, and what is lawful. For it requires not only great underſtanding in the nature of things, but alſo in the nature and temper of men, in the ſtate of affairs at home and abroad; together with diligent and long obſervation, and indeed all the perfections of a prudent Governor; to be able to determine what is moſt expedient for a Church or State: But every Chriſtian may ſoon reſolve or receive ſatisfaction about what is ſinful, or permitted to him. Beſides, were I never ſo skilful, I ſhould not have the confidence (to which it ſeems you are arrived) to inſtruct my ſuperiours: It is enough for me to deal with my equals. Though modeſt propoſals and humble deſires without any noiſe and ſtir, I preſume, would never be diſliked from any of us: And had you always taken that courſe from the beginning, it had been better for you: But you were ever for aſſertions and poſitions (as my Lord Bacon long ago obſerved) and filled all the Nation, as much as you could, with diſpleaſure againſt their Governors; and taught them to eſteem the compounding of controverſies to ſavour of mans Wiſdom and human Policy.

N. C.

No, we are now for an Accommodation.

C.

You do well to put in that word now, for it was ever other ways heretofore, and Books were written againſt it (as I will ſhew you if you deſire it) when you hoped to carry all before you. And it is a great argument of your headineſs and paſſion (to ſay no more) that when you had power to accommodate Differences you would not; and now you cry out for it, when it is neither in your power nor ours. For why do you ſay the Biſhops ſhould remove out of the way the things that trouble you? Have they power to alter laws and p. 179change them at their pleaſure? Are not they bound up and tied to obedience as well as your ſelves? All that they can do is but to joyn their Votes together with many other, to ſettle that Religion which is ſound and good, it being the foundation of all Laws and the common bond of human Society: And when it is eſtabliſht to take the ſame care that it be preſerved from ſudden and unneceſſary alterations in any thing belonging to it; which are alwayes dangerous not only to Religion, but to the Civil Peace. Now ſince it is plain they judg it not fit to promote a change becauſe of ſome mens diſlike, and none ought to be deſired, in my poor judgment, againſt the Opinion and without the conſent of our Spiritual Governours; who have more Wiſdom, and not leſs Piety ſure than we, what have you and I to do but to ſeek peace and unity ſome other way without alterations? A Schiſm you ſee is moſt pernicious, and like to prove moſt deadly to all Religion —

N. C.

Let me interpoſe one thing which I forgot before. We are not formed into Churches, and ſo do not make a ſtrict ſeparation from you as others do.

C.

So much the greater danger of all the miſchiefs before mentioned: That men ſhould grow wild and mad when they are at ſuch liberty, and under no government but their own fancies. This your Miniſters cannot but underſtand well enough: And therefore muſt either come to us, or caſt you into a great many little bodies by your ſelves.

N C.

I wiſh heartily we were united to the main Body of your Church.

C.

I am glad to hear you ſay ſo. But if you would have your wiſhes accompliſhed, you muſt contribute with all your power to the ending our quarrels, p. 180by ſtudying thoſe things that make for peace. Do not talk of the Duty of your Governours, but think ſeriouſly of your own. And ſince it is manifeſt, as I told you, that they judg it not meet to promote any alteration of that which hath been ſo long ſettled; and ſince it is granted by ſo many of you, that the things enjoyned by Law are not unlawful, and by ſo many of us they are thought not to be convenient; leave theſe earneſt indeavours to alter the Laws, and alter your ſelves.

N. C.

What would you have us do?

C.

I would have you ſettle your ſelves (and not be thus wavering) in this perſwaſion, that it is lawful to joyn with us in the Worſhip of God, as now eſtabliſhed: And then reſolve that it belongs only to thoſe, to determine of the Conveniency of things, who have power to do what they beſt like, and wiſdom and judgment to weigh all circumſtances and make choice of the beſt courſe: And that if they miſtake, their error ſhall not be imputed to you, who have nothing to do in ſuch matters. After this, weigh ſeriouſly and often, the great miſchiefs of Separation, which far exceed all the Inconveniences which can be fancied in all our Ceremonies. And then your Miniſters muſt indeavour to make their acquaintance and followers of this belief; and confirm them in it by coming to the Common-Prayer, and informing them that all the ancient Puritans (as they were called) did not hold it unlawful to joyn with with us, but the contrary; to ſeparate from us. Nay, let them teach them that it is a great deal better to do ſomethings which poſſibly they had rather let alone, than quarrel and break the peace of the Church of God. They have the Example of Mr. Calvin for p. 181it, who finding, that during his exile from Geneva, they had brought back the uſe of the Wafer-Cake of unleavened bread, would not contend about it, though he did not like it. He knew as well as you, it was not commanded by God, and that there was no neceſſity of it; nay, that this ſort of bread had been the invention of the Papiſts, and abuſed by them to Superſtition and Idolatry; and that they made unleavened bread neceſſary to the Sacrament, and urged it as of Divine Inſtitution, for which cauſes he diſlik'd it; but yet he would not ſtrive, though it would not have been to break a cuſtom, but only to go back where he left them; becauſe he ſaw it would make a rent. Would you would but imitate his Diſcretion, and we ſhould ſee an end of our Diſputes; Eſpecially if you would not be ſo peremptory; for there can be no peace while you affirm with ſo much confidence, that this and that doubtful thing, is the Mind of the Lord. St. Paul was content (as my Lord Bacon, I think, ſomewhere obſerves) to ſpeak in this manner in ſome caſes, Thus ſay I, not the Lord: and according to my counſel. But now men do ſo lightly ſay, Not I, but the Lord, yea, and bind it with ſuch heavy denunciations of his judgments; that they diſtract poor ſouls that would willingly do all that God would have them, and make Differences ſo wide, that we can never come together. Be modeſt therefore in your affections, deſires, and all your carriage and behaviour. Speak well alſo of the preſent Miniſters that conform in every thing to the Law, who approve themſelves to God and men by their diligence and piety. Be not ready to proclaim the negligence or perhaps evil manners of any. Hear all their Inſtructions with Reverence, and if your be otherwiſe minded in any thing, keep it to your ſelves, and make no ſtir about it. In ſhort, Do all that ever you can without ſinning; p. 182and if you do not condemn nor ſeparate from thoſe who do more than you; then your Omiſſions may be pardoned, and you may more reaſonably expect indulgence or accommodation, when you do your Duty as well as you are able, than now that you are diſobedient, and obſtinately refuſe to obey Authority in things you acknowledg not unlawful.

N. C.

But there ſhould be ſome yeilding on both ſides.

C.

Would you have us yeild to thoſe, who will not bend to their own Reaſon and Conſcience? Firſt do what you can; otherwiſe we cannot ſo much as yeild that you are throughly ſincere and honeſt hearted. And let me admoniſh you of this alſo; that unleſs you reform your ſelves in ſuch things as I have mentioned, all that can be fairly yeilded will not do the buſineſs. For when you have any hope of obtaining all you wiſh, nothing will ſerve leſs than that. It will not content you to have your conſciences ſatisfied, but we muſt ſatisfie your Fancy too: For I have been informed that there was ſome inclination even in Queen Elizabeths Days, to remove the Ceremonies of the Croſs,This Sir Fran. Walſingham told Mr. Knewſtubs who related it to Dr. John Burges. Surpliſs, and Kneeling, if that would give content. But thoſe of your perſwaſion who were conſulted with, returned this Anſwer; That they muſt not leave a Hoof behind, which Anſwer, ſaith my Author, made them all the faſter.

N. C.

It was their Conſcience therefore that was unſatiſfied.

C.

And there is no hopes of ſatisfying ſuch Conſciences, as ſtill ſay like Moſes to Pharoah, Thus ſaith the Lord; in every little point. Nothing will pleaſe p. 183them, but pulling down all, and rearing another building after a new model of their own; or, in their phraſe, according to the pattern in the Mount.

N. C.

I muſt talk with you about that anon, if I can; but I hope there are few of theſe rigid men, now among our Miniſters.

C.

Then I have told them the way to peace.

N. C.

But it is ſuch away I perceive as would make them only hearers of Sermons, not preachers, unleſs they conform in all things. It would tye up their Tongues, and reſtrain them from the exerciſe of their Miniſtry: a thing they can never conſent unto.

C.

The ancient ſilenced Miniſters before the War quietly ſuffered this reſtraint: and thought they might, nay, ought to ceaſe preaching when they were deprived.

N C.

I cannot believe it.

C.

It is ſo notorious, that the Browniſts obſerved this to them as a Crime, that they did acquieſce in the ſuſpenſion or deprivation of the Biſhops. But they were ſo far from thinking it a fault; that they juſtified it to be a Vertue. For ſo long, ſaid they, as the Biſhops ſuſpend and deprive according to the Laws of the land, we account of the Action herein, as of the act of the Church; which we may and ought to reverence and yeild unto: if they do other wiſe; we have liberty given us by the Law to appeal from them. A moſt Grave and modeſt Confutation of the Errors of the Sect called Browniſts or Separatiſts; agreed upon long ſince by the joint conſent of many Miniſters then ſtanding out in the cauſe of Inconformity. Publiſhed by Mr. Rath. 1644. part. 2. p. 41.If it be ſaid, that the Church is not to be obeyed when it ſuſpends and deprives us, for ſuch cauſes as we in our Conſciences think to be inſufficient; we anſwer: That it lies in p. 184them to depoſe that may ordain; and they may ſhut, that may open. And that as he may with a good conſcience execute a Miniſtry by the ordination and calling of the Church, who is privy to himſelf of ſome unfitneſs (if the Church will preſs him to it:) ſo may be who is privy to himſelf of no fault that deſerves deprivation, ceaſe from the execution of his Miniſtry; when he is preſſed thereunto by the Church. And indeed, if a guiltleſs perſon, put out of his charge by the Churches Authority, may yet continue in it, what proceedings can there be againſt guilty perſons, who in their own conceits are always guiltleſs, or will at leaſt pretend ſo to be; ſeeing they alſo will be ready alway to object againſt the Churches Judgment, that they are called of God, and may not therefore giuegive over the execution of their Miniſtry at the will of man?

N. C.

It is notably obſerved I muſt confeſs: I did not think they had been of this mind.

C.

Your Miniſters that are or any learning know this well enough: But either are a new brood ſprung from a mixture of ſeveral Sects, or elſe act directly contrary to their Principles. Say which you pleaſe, it is indifferent to me: Whether do you think their principles are pure derived from the ancient Non-comformiſts; or that they have only ſome of their Principles, mingled with others of the old Separatiſts.

N. C.

I am ſure they cannot endure the name of thoſe Separatiſts.

C.

Why do they countenance their objections then againſt their forefathers; and act more like them than the Non-conformiſts?

N. C.

It is forgetfulneſs, I believe. And yet, if they thought they might keep ſilence, why do they ſay ſo oft, We be to me if I preach not the Goſpel? 1 Cor. 9.16. and, whether it be right to hearken p. 185to you, more than to God, judg ye, Act. 4.19, 20.

C.

That's a queſtion to be askt them, rather than me. And their Forefathers in Non-conformity, thought ſuch places unskilfully alledged againſt them by the Browniſts, and that they were nothing to the purpoſe: Their Caſe (and ſo yours) being ſo different from the Apoſtles. For firſt, They that inhibited the Apoſtles (they are the words of thoſe Miniſters concerning the laſt place) were known and profeſſed enemies to the Goſpel.Ib. part. 2. pag. 42. Secondly, the Apoſtles were charged not to teach in the name of Chriſt, nor to publiſh any part of the doctrine of the Goſpel; which commandment might more hardly be yielded unto than this of our Biſhops, who are not only content that the Goſpel ſhould be preached, but are alſo Preachers of it themſelves. Laſtly, the Apoſtles received not their calling and Authority from men, nor by the hands of men, but immediately from God himſelf, and therefore might not be reſtrained or depoſed by men: whereas we, though we exerciſe a function whereof God is the Author, and are alſo called of God to it, yet are we called and ordained by the hand and miniſtry of men, and therefore may by men be alſo depoſed, and reſtrained from the exerciſe of our Miniſtry.

N. C.

They ſeem to ſpeak with great judgment.

C.

Would we could but hear you Diſcourſe now thus wiſely and ſolidly: It would gain you great reſpect and make every body in love with you, whatſoever differences there were between us. But to hear men only babble in Scripture-language; ſo ignorantly as if they were mere Novices in Chriſtian Religion, and yet ſo confidently as if they were Apoſtles; it cannot p. 186but diſguſt all rational perſons. Beſides, would not any man think that many of your Miniſters were carried more by Humour than Piety, and regarded more their own intereſt, than that of Religion, when he hears them crying out, neceſſity is laid upon us; and wo be to us, if we preach not the Goſpel; and yet they preach it only where there is no need, and that with a greater breach of the Laws, than if they preached in other places? Why do they not inſtruct the country people (if they muſt preach,) where they ſay the Cures are worſt ſerved? I doubt they ſee their condition would be Woful indeed, if they preach'd the Goſpel there; and therefore they ſhould have added two words to the Apoſtles ſpeech and ſaid, Wo be to us, if we preach not the Goſpel, in LONDON. There is little to be got by preaching it to the poor Countrey folk. Thoſe are barren places to ſow the ſeed in, and will bring forth ſmall profit to themſelves. And ſo they would do well to ſay in plain Engliſh (and I ſhould think them honeſter men if they did) Neceſſity is laid upon us: to tell you the truth, We muſt preach to get a living.

N. C.

I have heard them ſay, that they have ſearch't their hearts often —

C.

So did the Army as I told you, and were never the better for that.

N. C.

And they find that they mean uprightly: And that it doth not condemn them of conſulting with fleſh and blood.

C.

I find that they apiſhly imitate the Apoſtles without their ſpirit: And run about with their words in their mouths, when they leave the ſenſe behind. As if when they want the things the Apoſtles had, it were ſome comfort to them that they can keep their glorious Phraſe and Stile. Did they never p. 187conſult think you one with another, what to do?

N. C.

Yes without doubt.

C.

And what are they, I beſeech you? Are they turned on a ſudden into Spirits? Have they left the Body, ſince they left our Churches; and become ſeparated Subſtances, ſince they became Separatiſts.

N. C.

What do you mean?

C.

Nay, what do you mean, thus vainly to affect the Apoſtles phraſe? Who intended nothing elſe, when he ſaid, (1 Gal. 16.) that he did not conſult with fleſh and blood after God was pleaſed to give him an immediate commiſſion to preach Chriſt, but that he did not conferr and deliberate with any mortal men, like himſelf, whether he ſhould go about that work or no. And truly in this ſenſe I doubt your Miniſters conſulted too much with fleſh and blood, when they conſidered whether they ſhould conform to the Orders of the Church or no. They applied themſelves to your humour, and thought whether you would not be diſpleaſed to ſee them do that which they had raſhly condemned or ſlighted; and hear them preach up that, which they had deſtroyed. Saint Paul indeed ſtood not upon this, and would not hearken to what men ſaid: But they I doubt had more of his words than of his mind; and ſate liſtning a great while to the voice of fleſh and blood about this matter. And I wiſh they did not conſult too much with it about other things: And did not baulk diſpleaſing Doctrines. Otherwiſe, why do they not teach you in an honeſt manner as the Old Non-Conformiſts did: That the Ancient Church of God uſed a Form of Prayer and Praiſes, as every body p. 188knows**There being, ſay they, confeſſions, prayers, pſalms, reading of the Scriptures, exhortations, ſolemn bleſſing uſed in their Synagogues.? And that our Saviour bad his Diſciples when they prayed to ſay, Our Father, &c. which he would never have done, if it had not been lawful for us in making our Prayers to God, to uſe the very ſame Words? And that is an abſurd and frivolous Exception to ſay, We never read that the Apoſtles did uſe a Preſcript Form of Words; For if this be ſufficient to excuſe us from doing what Godexpreſly commands or manifeſtly permits, that we never read the Apoſtles or Saints did it; then we muſt not, or need not Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghoſt, becauſe we never find they uſed thoſe words; or that they Baptiſed Infants; or that they prayed, or rendred acknowledgments to the Holy Ghoſt. And farther, why do they not teach you that even upon extraordinary occaſions, which require great and ſpecial fervency of Spirit, it is lawful to uſe a Form of Words, as our Bleſſed Saviour did in his Agony Matth. 26.42.45.**And ſo the Prophets had appointed as they gather from 14. Hoſ. 1. & 2. Joel 17.Hos 1? And again, not only thoſe Forms which we frame our ſelves, but which have been compoſed by others? as Solomon, they obſerved, Jehoſophat, Hezekiah, all uſed the very words that David had done before. Nay, further yet, that the people of God have uſed a ſet Form of Words in extraordinary occaſions, which were appointed long before thoſe occaſions fell out. Daniel for inſtance uſed the words that Solomon had commended in caſe of CaptivityaaDan. 9.5. compared with 1 King 8 47.Dan 9:51 Kgs 8:47: and Ezra uſes the p. 189Form of Thankſgiving, which Jeremiah had appointed, ſay they; to be uſed after their return from CaptivitybbVid. Pſal. 136. comp. with 33. Jer. 11. and 3. Ezra. 11.Ps 136Jer 11. And more than this, that it is lawful to uſe not only thoſe forms which are in the Scripture, but ſuch as in the compiling and collecting them, the Invention and ſuch other Gifts of men are uſed. There being a liberty (as the Separatiſts themſelves heretofore confeſſed) left in the Church to do many things, that tend only to the ſetting forth Gods Ordinances. As in preaching of the Word, and in thoſe Prayers, which they call conceived Prayers; the Wit, Memory, judgment, and ſuch other human gifts are lawfully and neceſſarily uſed. Eſpecially conſidering, that the peoples Underſtanding and Memory may be better helped by that they are well acquainted withal, than by the other. And then, if forms thus deviſed by men be found to be lawful and profitable; what ſin can it be, for the Governors of the Church to command that ſuch Forms be uſed, or for us to uſe them (being perſwaded of their lawfulneſe) when they are impoſed? Unleſs any body will ſay, that therefore it is unlawful for us to hear the Word, receive the Sacraments, believe the Trinity and all other Articles of the Faith, becauſe we are commanded by the Magiſtrate ſo to do: Whereas indeed we ought the rather to do good things that are agreeable to the Word, when we know them to be alſo commanded by the Chriſtian Magiſtrate. Theſe are the very words of your ancient Writers againſt the Browniſts or Separatiſts ccIn the Book publiſhed by Mr. W. Rathband. part 1. but taken, I find; out of a more ancient writer, Mr. Rich. Bernard's confutation of the errors of Barrow and Greenwood, Ann. 1608. pag. 191. 192. &c..

p. 190Let but your Miniſters, not conſulting the People's Fancies and deſires, faithfully inculcate theſe Truths, and indeavour to ingraft them in their minds; it will give a great Teſtimony of their Sincerity, and I am ſure it will go a great way to make up our ſad Diviſions. If they will not preſs theſe things more than any thing elſe, for the preſent; (there being ſuch great neceſſity of it) we can give no other reaſon of their ſilence, but that they conſult their own intereſt, and are loth to leave their Private Meetings. And then conſidering their known & declared Principles, I ſhall be forced to uſed a word of one of their great Enemies (though I proteſt I am ſincerely their friend) and ſay, they are of the moſt ancient Sect of the Auto-catacrites **J. Good-wins obſtruction of Juſtice. p. 68.[the Self-condemn'd] the worſt of all Sectaries.

N. C.

I have heard our Miniſters acknowledg all this; and therefore, what needs thus many words?

C.

Acknowledg it, man? I would not only have them ſay ſo when they are ask't, (as it were a ſorrowful Confeſſion whiſpered in the Ear) but publiſh it aloud on all occaſions; that ſo they may call back thoſe ſheep that are gone aſtray by their means. Let every one of them, the next time you meet, ſpeak to the people in their own language and ſay, Come, let us go up out of this Babel, and confuſion; Let us return to Sion; though it be with weeping and Supplication. There the Lord dwelleth, and there he is truly worſhipped. For whatſoever they may acknowledg ſometime, the poor people (whom I pity with all my ſoul) are ſtrangely and paſſionately poſſeſſed with an opinion of the ſinfulneſs of being preſent at our Divine Service. Many of them eſteem one of our Miniſters, how well ſoever qualified and diligent in his p. 191calling, however blameleſs and exemplary in his converſation; no better than a Corrupt man, a Time-ſerver, a Formaliſt, Popiſhly affected, or at leaſt, a man blinded and deceived through Ignorance. Nay, there are thoſe who call them the Sons of Perdition and make them men of no Conſcience. Some have queſtioned whether they may marry a Conformiſt; as if they were the people of a ſtrange God. To hear ſuch a Miniſter they look upon as a great crime: At leaſt they think, if any other be to be found, they muſt go to the Non-Conformiſt, though far the weaker man. And as if they thought that to be godlineſs in themſelves which they call tyranny in other men; there are ſome that impoſe this upon their Children, never to hear the Common-Prayer: And charge them, as I have heard, upon their bleſſing, to obey them in this Command. And when for very ſhame they 01 cannot but acknowledg the gifts of ſome Miniſters; then they limit the uſe of them only to the information of mens Minds in the letter of the Scripture and diſcovering groſs ſins: But that they may convert Souls, and work Faith and Repentance in them, they very much doubt, if not flatly deny. Nay, ſo far doth this conceit carry ſome of them, that they will ſcarce give a friendly countenance or ſalutation to us: And they commonly call any ſmall company of their own party; the Church, the people of God, the Chriſtians of ſuch a town: As if we had no portion in Chriſt, but they had got him wholly to themſelves. Theſe Humours were obſerved in the old Separatiſts; and ſince they abound in you alſo, there is great need to warn you to purge out the old leven leſt it be tranſmitted from generation to generation.

p. 192N. C.

But though a ſet Forum be lawful, yet it is uſeleſs; becauſe there is no able Miniſter that needs one: and we ought not to provide Crutches for thoſe that are not able, but rather remove them.

C.

You would fain be Governors I ſee, not ſubjects; and we ſhould have fine doings, if you were in the Throne: Unleſs you were as wiſe and honeſt as ſome of your Predeceſſors have been, who made this diſcreet anſwer to your Exception. There may be good Miniſters, who want the gift of extemporary conceptions of Prayer; and by conſequence need a Form. For St. Paul ſetting down the requiſites to a Biſhop (ſaith Mr. Geree **Reſolution of 10. Caſes Licenſed by Mr. Cranford and dedicated to Mr. Rith. Capel An. 1644.) 1 Tim. 3. 1 Tit. Neither names nor intimates this for one of them. And where the Scripture ſpeaks of Miniſterial gifts given to the edification of the Church; this gift of prayer is never mentioned.**1 Corinth. 1. to the 11. Rom. 12.6.7.8. Epheſ. 4.11.12.1 Cor 1Rom 12:6Rom 12:7Rom 12:8Eph 4:11Eph 4:12 Tell me then, if a man have all that St. Paul requires in a Biſhop, and yet wants this gift, is he a lawful Miniſter of the Goſpel or not? No doubt there are ſuch, who cannot expreſs themſelves without confuſion, or to the edification of others without the help of a Form: And experience tells us, very excellent men have conſtantly tyed themſelves to it. As, Dr. Taylor, a couragious witneſs to the Truth, uſed the Communion-Book even in private when he was in Priſon, and bequeath'd it as a Legacy to his Wife. He inſtances alſo in Dr. Sibs and Mr. Hilderſham who uſed conſtantly one form of Prayer before their Sermons. And I find indeed the two laſt Sermons of the Doctor ſent abroad by p. 193two eminent men with that Prayer before them**Upon 14. John, 1. publiſhed by Mr. Tho. Goodwin, and Mr. Philip Nye, and dedicated to my Lord of Warwick. By which you may ſee the Aſſembly were much out of the way, when they told you, the Lord Jeſus furniſhes all thoſe whom he calls to the Miniſtry with this gift of Prayer. Or elſe theſe men were among the idle and unedifying Miniſtry, who did not put forth themſelves to exerciſe their gift. Preface to the Directory.

N.C.

I have many things to ſay about Forms of Prayer, and yours in particular; eſpecially about the impoſing them; if you have the patience to hear me.

C.

With all my heart: Only contract what you have to ſay, becauſe I have ſome buſineſs ſtayes for me.

N.C.

You have ſeen a Book I perceive which hinders ſeveral perſons, I am told, from joyning with you; and they think it unanſwerable.

C.

What Goliah ſhould that be?

N. C.

It is called, Common Prayer-Book-Devotions, Epiſcopal Deluſions. Or the Second Death of the Service-Book.

C.

A terrible, Giant-like Title.

N.C.

The Preface to which ſeems to call your Miniſters the Sons of Perdition, as you juſt now noted.

C.

O, I remember now; it is ſaid by his Friends to be writ by Mr, J. Goodwin; and printed in the wonderful year 1666, when they thought to ſee us tumble down with a powder.

N.C.

It is full of his peculiar phraſes, and therefore—

C.

I am not concern'd at all who was the Author: Let's conſider what he ſays. I took it to be a piece ſo ſoul and ſcurrilous; nay ſo prophane and blaſphemous p. 194againſt thoſe Devotions wherein ſo many thouſand Souls offer up themſelves to God; that I never expected to hear you name it without abhorrence.

N.C.

You paſs a very hard ſentence on it.

C.

If you had read the two firſt leaves ſeriouſly, you would not ſay ſo. Where, as if he imagin'd himſelf in a Tennis-Court when he chanc't to peep into a Church, he rudely calls the Miniſter's and People's anſwering one another, Bandying and toſſing of Devotions to and again (a witty expreſſion you think, but borrowed alas, as the reſt of his Book, from the Railers that were before him**It is as old as the Admonition in Qu. Elizabeths time.). Nay, his fancy ſtept immediately from thence into an Ale-houſe; and he tells us that theſe Devotions much reſemble the jolly Scent of a ſet of Ale-inſpired Companions, chanting their drunken Catches upon a Bench. Which is ſuch a leud and impious Scoff at the Devotions inſpired by the Holy-Ghoſt (which directed the Antient Saints thus to anſwer one another**15 Exo. 1.21.15. Rev. 3.Exod 1:21Exod 1:15Rev 3) that, to ſpeak in Mr. J. Goodwins phraſe, he muſt be the firſt-born of prophanneſs, who can deliberately commend ſuch writings.

N.C.

But what do you ſay to the reſt of the Book.

C.

I ſay he was in ſuch a Cholerick fit, and laid ſo furiouſly about him when he writ it, that neither the admirable Song of St. Ambroſe, nor the Creed it ſelf, (which bears the name of the Apoſtles) could eſcape with fair quarter.

N C.

Not the Creed?

C.

No: For he blames the Liturgy; for injoyning us to make Confeſſion of our Faith in that form of words: becauſe ſaith he, it contains that, which I believe no man underſtands upon any good grounds what it means; viz. the deſcent of Chriſt into Hell.

p. 195N.C.

Read his words again, Doth no man underſtand—

C.

Not one; if his belief be right, which is exceeding large in this point, though very ſtrait in other things.

N.C.

High Preſumption, you ſhould ſay, not belief. Have not our Writers given a very good account of this Article?

C.

I know not ſo well what yours have done, I am ſure ours, both Biſhops and Prieſts, have explained it; witneſs the late Primate of Ireland, Biſhop Bilſon, and Dr. Pierſon in his excellent Book upon the Creed.

N. C.

And when the Aſſembly debated this, among other exceptions brought in againſt the three Creeds; a learned Doctor told them (in a Speech of his) that all the Chriſtians in the World acknowledged Chriſt's deſcent into Hell ſome way or other: either Locally, as many of the ancient Fathers, Latimer the Martyr, Bilſon, Andrews, Nowel in his Catechiſm; or Vertually, as Durandus; or Metaphorically, as Mr. Calvin; or Metonymically, as Tilenus, Perkins, and the Aſſembly. And therefore ſince there are ſo many ways to explain the words, he deſired that (after the example of the Harmony of Confeſſions) the Aſſembly would content themſelves with branding only the Popiſh Expoſition of the Article, which takes Hell for a part of Purgatory, where they ſuppoſe the Souls of the Fathers to have lay'd.

C.

I remember well the words**Sacra Nemeſis p. 18.; it was Doctor Feately who made this Speech: But alas! all theſe men that we have named underſtood nothing. They knew not (poor Souls!) what they ſaid when they made Confeſſion of their Faith; or they had no reaſon worth a ruſh for what they believed. Nay all the Chriſtian World p. 196do but babble in their Devotions, if you will take the word of this triumphant Writer; excepting alway ſuch as himſelf, who have no Creed at all, that ever I heard of; I mean make no confeſſion of their Faith when they meet together.

N.C.

They are offended perhaps with thoſe words; elſe they would uſe the Apoſtles Creed, as it is commonly called.

C.

That is not the buſineſs; for he ſcoffs, as I told you, at the Song of St. Ambroſe, though it contain an incomparable acknowledgment of Almighty God, and the principal points of Chriſtian Faith, and hath none of thoſe words in it. This is no more fit, in his conceit, to be uſed in Divine-Service, together with the Pſalms of David, than an Aſſe was to be yoked with an Oxe in the ſame Plough, under the Law of Moſes. Had he the ſame opinion think you of one of his own Hymnes (or Rimes rather) though never ſo flat and inſipid? No, I warrant you. They were divinely inſpired; heaven-born Songs; no leſs Canonical than the Pſalms of David.