Answer to Book by Romish Priests, Doctrine 32
XXXII. That the Saints pray not for us.
Anſwer.
THere is no ſuch aſſertion as this among us; but he again calumniates us. For though the Saints cannot know our particular wants, and therefore cannot make particular Prayers for us; yet that in general they pray for that part of God's Church, which is here on Earth, and perhaps (for this we cannot affirm certainly) for ſome particular perſons, who were well known, and dear to them, when on Earth, we do not deny: But if we did, he is ſo ill provided of Proofs, and of Scripture for it, that thoſe which he alledges will work no belief in us.
For in V. Rev. 8.V. Rev. 8. there is a plain repreſentation of the Church here on Earth, not in Heaven. So the latter end of their Song, v. 10. might have informed him, where they ſay, Thou haſt made us unto our God Kings and Prieſts, and we ſhall reign on the Earth. And thus many of the Fathers underſtood it; as he might have learnt from Viega, one of their own Doctors. So th…t he might have ſp red his lo, how, &c. and we may rather ſay, in imitation of it, Lo, how ſilly an Interpreter this is of ſuch Divine Myſteries!
What is recorded in a Book of no authority,2 Macc. XV. 14. 2 Maccab XV. 14. concerning Judas his Dreams, is not worth conſidering: and it proves no more if we ſhould allow it, but only a general recommendation of that Nation to God.
XV. Jer. 1.The next place out of XV. Jer. 1. doth not imply that Moſes and Samuel then prayed for them in Heaven, but that if they did, or rather if two ſuch powerful perſons were then alive to intercede for that People, they ſhould not prevail. And ſo St. Hierom (whom this man belies, as he doth us) plainly enough expounds it. Nay, his own Sixtus Senenſis ſaith, upon the like place (though Noah, Daniel and Job ſtood before me) that the Prophet ſpeaks upon a ſuppoſition, that if ſuch men as they were in this ſinful World, they ſhould deliver none, &c. God would not hear them, for ſuch a wicked People.
It is of no conſequence, what Baruch ſaith, being never reputed a Canonical Book, and, according to his own Rule in his Preface, ought to paſs for nothing; unleſs he had prov'd the ſame that Baruch ſaith, by places of Canonical Writ. Beſides,III. Baruc 4. dead Iſraelites may mean no more but thoſe now dead, who when they were alive, prayed as their Poſterity now did. And ſo Nich. Lyra underſtands by dead Iſraelies, the holy Patriarchs and Prophets, who when they were alive, prayed for the good Eſtate of their Poſterity. Or dead, may ſignify thoſe, whoſe condition was ſo low, that they could do nothing for themſelves, as he deſcribes all Iſrael, v. 10. that they were accounted with them that go down into the grave, that is, dead men. This, I will ſtand to it, is an Interpretation they cannot confute. Theodoret doth ſay, that theſe words clearly prove the immortality of the Soul: and that's all.
I ſee no reaſon why II. Rev. 26, 27. may not be interpreted of the preferment Chriſt promiſed, in this world, to thoſe who ſhould keep his words, i. e. fulfil his Commands, to the end of that preſent perſecution. But, if it relate to the other World, Menochius (a better Interpreter than he) expreſly ſaith, that Chriſt ſpeaks of the power which the Saints ſhall exerciſe in the day of judgment over all Nations, which did not obey Chriſt: judging them with Chriſt, and delivering them to the puniſhment of eternal death. Agreeable to what we read III. Wiſd. 8. They ſhall judge the Nations, and have dominion over the people. St. Auſtin hath not a word of this matter upon the ſecond Pſalm, but only ſays, theſe words, ruling with a Rod of iron, is as much, as with inflexible Juſtice. We ſee what th…ſe men would bring things to, it they be let alone. The Saints may be looked upon now as Rulers of this World, by a power imparted unto them from Chriſt, who hath thus eſtabliſhed them, this man ſaith, over the Nations. He ſhould have ſhewn us where he reads this, for we cannot find it here.
But this leads him into reaſoning again (finding ſo little help in his expreſs Scriptures) and that is as weak as all the reſt. For it is out of a Parabolical Scripture before-named; from which all acknowledge Arguments ought not to be drawn. And beſides, it is not a Prayer to Abraham, but ſuch a requeſt as we make one to another here, when we want relief.
What St. Auſtin ſaith on this place, is not worth the ſearching after; for it will prove no more than what he quotes out of his XVth. Sermon (de verb. Apoſtol.) he ſhould have ſaid the XVIIth. where he diſtinguiſheth between the Commemoration that was made of the Martyrs at the Altar, and of other Faithful perſons. For the l…tter they prayed; but this would have been an injury, he thinks, to the Martyrs, by whoſe Prayers we rather ſhould be recommended to God. But this ſignifies no more than a general recommendation of the Church to God's Mercy. His next Father, St. H…lary, ſpeaks only of what Angels do, not of Saints: And I gave an account of that before, but for want of company he brings him in again. He concludes with Damaſcen, a Father that lived almoſt Eight hundred years after Chriſt; and was ſo credulous as to vouch it for a Truth, That Trajan's Soul was delivered out of H ll by Gregory's Prayers; and ſaith, The whole world witneſſeth it. Which all the world now, even their own Church, believes to be a fable. And yet this Damaſcen ſ…ith no more, but that they are to be honoured as thoſe that make Interceſſion to God for us; that is, for the Church.