The Life and Death of Vavasor Powell, Account 2
A Brief and true Relation of a third Convention of Mr. Vavaſor Powell, and the tranſactions between ſome of the Juſtices of the Peace of the County of Glamorgan, and him at the Town hall in Cardieffe, the 13 of Jan. 1668.
THe 13. of January, 1668. in the afternoon the Jaylor was commanded to bring the aforeſaid Priſoner to the Bar, before Sir John A. Kt. H. H. and Dr. W. B. Eſqs. Sir Iohn A. ſpake to the Priſoner as followeth, or to this purpoſe.
Sir Iohn A.
Mr. Powel you have by Order of the Council had the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy already tendered unto you, and now we tender them again unto you, will you take them?
Mr. P.
Sir I deſire leave of you and the reſt of the Bench, as neceſſarily previous, and antecedaneous to my anſwer, that I may be ſatisfied firſt in two queſtions.
1. Que. In what capacity doth the Law and you look upon one, whether as a publick or private perſon? If as a private perſon (as I ſuppoſe it and you do) then one of theſe Oaths by Law cannot be tendered to me.
2. Queſt. What tender do you count this, whether a firſt or ſecond? I have juſt cauſe to propound this Queſtion: for one of you that ſits upon that Bench, as I am credibly informed from one that hath ſeen his Letter, hath informed the Council or ſome of them, that the Oaths have been tendred twice before now to me, and that I refuſed them: with other things as falſe; ſo that my taking of them now would be but as the Poet ſaid Clipeum post vulnera ſumo. To take the Buckler after I am wounded. Hereupon the Dr. knowing himſelf to be guilty, did in great fury break out into ſeveral haſty expreſſions, all tending to ſilence the priſoner, and commanding that the Oaths be ſhew'd him, and if he would not take them, let the Jaylor take him.
P.
Sir, it do h not become a man of your learning or place to be ſo angry, and the wrath of man doth not eff ct the righteouſneſs of God; and Sir, if you will be Dr. Saul to perſecute the truth and people of G d as you do I hope I ſhall be as Deacon Stephen to ſt…nd up for them: and Dr. if you pleaſe, let you and I, either according to Law or Reaſon diſcourſe this point; and let the Bench and Court judge thereof.
Hereupon Dr. B. went away in a great fury (to fetch a Lawyer as they ſaid, to anſwer him) in omuch that ſome of the people called him D…ctor Fury which was afterwards fathered upon Mr. Powel, though he did not ſay ſo.
Sir Iohn A.
and the other two Juſtices moved Mr. Powel to take the Oaths again.
P.
I beſeech you Gentlemen, give me leave to ſpeak a few words firſt, and then I ſhall directly anſwer you, whether I can and will take them, yea or no, (there being a little ſilence he went on) and ſaid Theſe two Oath, were framed and impoſed (as I ſuppoſe you well know) the firſt of them, viz. the Oath of Supremacy, in the firſt year of Queen Elizabeth, immediately after that hot perſecution of the Papiſts in Queen Marys days, and it was no doubt intended chiefly againſt Papiſts, and to be a teſt and tryal of all perſons that were admitted into, or continued in any publick Offices, either Temporal or Eccleſiaſtical. The other Oath of Allegiance or Obedience, was impoſed upon that notorious act, the Gunpowder Treaſon, and the ſubſtance of both of them is to acknowledge the Queen or King of England to be the Supream Magiſtrates of theſe Kingdoms, and that no Prince or Forraign power had any right thereto: nor the Pope nor any other had power to diſſolve or diſcharge any ſubject from their Obedience to the Queen or King, and this power I do freely and heartily acknowledge, and ſo far I do here declare, if it gives you ſatisfaction.
Iuſtices ſaid no, you muſt take the Oaths as they are tendred.
P.
Why may not that ſatisfie you which ſatisfied the King and his Council, for in my Caſe ſtated and preſented to them the laſt day before my diſcharge, I did ſignifie that I was not free in Conſcience to take thoſe Oaths in the way they are now tender'd, and yet they were pleaſed to grant me their Order for my diſcharge.
Sir I. A.
But they did not know you refuſed the Oaths.
P.
Yes Sir, but they did, as you may ſee, if you pleaſe look upon this Copy of my Caſe which I preſented to them, which I deſire you to read, and their Order for my diſcharge, and ſo Mr. Powel render'd them the Copy, which they refus'd to receive.
Iuſtices,
But we have an Order from the King and his Council, requiring you to take the Oaths.
P.
Sir That Order was procured by falſe information againſt me to the Council (which is puniſhable by the Law) but I pray you let me ſee the Order, that I may know what it requires, and comport my ſelf with their command as far as I can.
Sir I. A.
No, we will not ſhew it.
P.
Sir Iohn, the laſt time I was before you, you would have had the Dr. to ſhew it, and why ſhould you now be againſt it?
I. B.
Tender them unto him, the Oath of Allegiance firſt, or words to that purpoſe.
P.
Do you require no more then the taking of that, and ſhall the taking thereof be (as the Apoſtle ſaith of an Oath) an end of the ſtrife?
Iuſtices,
Do you take that firſt, and you ſhall know that afterwards.
P.
Doth my liberty depend upon taking or not taking it.
Iuſt.
Do you take it.
P.
Gentlemen, you deal very ſtrictly and ſeverely, and this is ſummum jus, which is ſumma injuria; for as our learned Caſuiſts and Divines, as Dr. Saunderſon, Mr. Perkins, and others ſay, that in taking of an Oath men muſt take them with reſpect to the Glory of God, a mans own advantage, or the good of another, but as you tender this, I cannot ſee how I do either if I take them, for this Ordinance of God is made a ſnare to me, for I am as a Martyr ſaid, impriſoned without cauſe, and now this is made as a cauſe of detaining me there. Be pleaſed Gentlemen to give me leave without offence to put you in mind of ſome words in your own Commiſſion, ſeveral times reiterated, Thas you are to execute Juſtice, ſecundum legem, & conſuetudinem Regni noſtri Angliae, according to the Law & Cuſtom of England. The Law of England doth not require that men ſhould take the Oaths as often as every Magiſtrate pleaſes to tender them, for as the L. Cook that was the glory of the Law, ſhews in the 7th. book of his Reports in the Caſe of Poſtnati, Calvins Caſe, a man is bound to take the Oath of Allegiance but once in his life time. And for the cuſtom of England it is not uſual to impriſon a man without cauſe (as I have been) or to impoſe upon men Oaths, when and whilſt they are priſoners, unleſs they deſire their liberty upon the account of taking them.
Dr. B. Upon this Dr. B. came in again in a great rage, and ſaid (as ſome report) why do you ſuffer him to bark at the Bench, but that neither Mr. P. nor ſeveral others preſent did hear) why do you ſuffer him to ſpeak, and ſhew contempt to his Majeſty, he hath ſaid that neither the King, nor his Council had power to tender him the Oath.
P.
Sir, I wonder how you dare ſpeak ſo and wrong me publickly before the Bench and the Court, I appeal to them, or either of them, or any here preſent whether I ſpake any ſuch thing, or any word tending thereto, at which all were ſilent, knowing it was a falſe accuſation, as one of the Officers of the Court, (no friend to Mr. P.) afterwards confeſſed, but wiſhed he had ſpoken it, that they might have had ſuch an advantage againſt him. But hereupon the Dr. again went out in a fume, and came in no more.
Iuſtices.
The three Juſtices remaining, prayed Mr. Powel again to take them, and would ſuffer him no longer to ſpeak, but bid one of the …fficers of the Court ſhew him the Oaths, and give him the Bible, bidding him lay his hand on the Bible.
P.
To what end do you tender me the Bible? I am not to ſwear by the Bible, but by God himſelf, and in that manner which his word directs.
Iuſtices,
The Law requires you ſhould do it in this manner.
P.
What Law?
Iuſtice H.
The Law of the Land.
P.
Which Law of the Land? there is the Common Law, the Statute Law, and the Civil Law, I have not read that by any of theſe the laying of the hand on a Book is abſolutely required, or eſſential to an Oath.
Iuſt. H.
Yea, the Law doth require it.
P.
I pray you Sir what Law? be pleaſed to inſtance in theſe acts, by which the Oaths are enjoyned, there is no ſuch ceremony required, nor I ſuppoſe by another law; to this neither he nor any other replyed, only another Mr. H. ſaid, but
Another Justice H. It is the common practice, and why ſhould you differ from it?
P.
Sir Common practice is not my Rule, but what is grounded upon Gods word, or good Reaſon, I ſhall obſerve.
Sir I. A. Come, let us trouble our ſelves no further he refuſes to take them, or words to that purpoſe.
P.
I deſire all the Court to take notice that I have not refus'd to take the Oaths, but I having taken them already, am not bound to take them again, and that they are not tendered me according to Law.
Iuſt.
Then the Juſtices commanded the Jaylor to take the Priſoner away.
P.
Gentlemen, ſince I may not be further heard about the Oaths, I deſire to be heard in ſomewhat elſe, (with much adoe they granted ſo much leave) will you be pleaſed to take ſufficient Bail till the next Seſſions?
Juſt.
The Juſtices were ſilent, the Jaylor made anſwer publickly, no.
P.
Sir, Are you one of the Judges of the Court that your No ſhould ſtand? But the Juſtice did not give him the leaſt check for his ſawcineſs. Then P. ſaid further, Gentlemen, I have been near eight years a Priſoner, and in 13 Priſons, and yet in all theſe I have not received ſo much incivility as from this man Mr. Jaylor, and therefore I deſire liberty to take a private Chamber in the Town, giving ſecurity for my true Impryſonment, but to this the Juſtices returned no anſwer, but commanded the Jaylor to take the Priſoner away, which was done accordingly, and returned to Priſon again.
About three moneths after this, a friend in London got a Habeas Corpus to remove him to the Common-Pleas Bar, which the Sheriff refuſed to obey, then came an Alias under Penalty of a 100 l. upon which they ſent him up: but would not let him know of his journey before hand. But about 8 a clock one night the Under Sheriff came to give him notice to be gone in half an hour, and ſo took him with a Guard 8 miles that night, being the 16 of the 8 monethmonth, 1669. and brought him to Weſtminſter to the Common-Pleas Bar the 22 of the ſame. Where upon the Examination of the Return, it was found illegal, but S. M. their Council pleaded he had nor had time to view it, and deſired time till next day, which the Judges granted. Thereupon Mr. P. moved the Court to take bail then, and diſcharge his guard which had been granted, but that S. M. ſaid, No my Lord, then he will go preach, to which the Priſoner replyed, that it was as lawful for him to preach as for him to talk there at the Bar. The next day he was brought into the Court again, and the return was again argued, the Priſoner having the liberty to open his Caſe himſelf, and though the return was by all the Judges judged falſe and illegal, yet was Mr. Powel committed to the Fleet Priſon by the Court, where he remained a Priſoner from the 24 of the 3 mon. 1669. till he was diſcharged by death the 27 of the 8 mon. 1670.