The Life and Death of Vavasor Powell, Dialogue
Ʋpon the 8th day of November 1668. Sir John A. Kt. and Dr. W.B. Eſq. came to the Angel in C. and ſent for Mr. Vavaſor Powel to come to them which he did accordingly.
Dr. B.
VVE have received an Order from the Council to tender you the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy.
Mr. P.
Gentlemen, if that be your buſineſs, I pray you let me return to my Priſon again, for I am committed already, and I think it is neither regular nor uſual to tender them to a Priſoner; you ſhould either before my commitment, eſpecially before preſentment or indictment againſt me have done it, or upon examination, or have convicted and indicted me firſt; and then tendred them, and ſo the Priſoner went towards the door, intending to return to the Priſon.
B.
Thereupon Dr. B. went between him and the door, and ſaid, nay ſtay Sir, you ſhall not be gone, and ſo called for ſome of the under Officers, or Deputies.
P.
Sir, though I might have continued in my Priſon and not have come hither, and may yet chooſe whetheir I ſtay or no, yet as I was willing to ſhew that reſpect to you in coming, ſo to expreſs my readineſs to anſwer any thing that may be objected againſt me, I do not mean to depart without leave.
B.
Come Mr. Powel, Will you take the Oaths, for we have an Order from ſome of the Council, and my Lord Keeper to tender them to you.
P.
Sir, I deſire to ſee your Order.
Sir J. A.
Let him ſee it.
B.
No he ſhall not ſee it.
P.
Sir, you may chuſe, but if you have ſuch an Order, it would be civility in you, and ſome ſatisfaction to me to let me ſee it.
B.
We might have tendred the Oaths to you at the laſt meeting.
P.
For it had been more proper for you to have, done it before you had committed me then either [which was after my firſt commitment ſeveral days,] then or now: But Dr. you have at firſt dealt very illegally by committing me without cauſe or colour of cauſe, and ſo run your ſelf into a Praemunire, and ever ſince your work hath been to ſeek to ſet things aright, but all the while you do wrong me and the truth, the Lord forgive you.
B.
If I have wronged you I have an eſtate to anſwer, queſtion me for it.
P.
Though that I might do ſo, yet I bleſs God I am a Chriſtian, and my principle, as well as my practiſe, is rather to forgive wrongs, then otherwiſe: leaving and committing my cauſe to God who will plead it, but D…ctor you are ſo tranſported with zeal againſt thoſe people called Phanaticks, that you forget Law and Reaſon.
B.
Wherein?
P.
You forget Law when you commit a man before any examination either of him, or againſt him: And it is againſt reaſon to commit a man to Priſon by vertue of Letters from the Lord Lieutenant, which were dated four or five years ago, when I was elſewhere a Priſoner, and diſcharged within the year by an Order from the King and his Council, to which Order the Lord Lieutenant own hand is,
B.
The Letters were not of ſo long a date, for they were dated in the year 1665.
P.
Mark that Gentlemen (ſaid Powel) to them that ſtood by, he himſelf confeſſed thoſe Letters were written in the year 1665. which is at leaſt two years ago, and my order doth plainly ſhew (bearing date Dec. 1667) that I was ſet at liberty long after the date of thoſe Letters.
B.
Well, will you take the Oaths, yea, or no, for we muſt return your anſwer.
P.
I pray you let me know whether my liberty doth depend upon the taking or refuſing of them.
Sir John A.
and the Town Clark would perſwade Mr. P. to take the Oaths, and then he ſhould know.
P.
If I may not know that, I may as well forbear declaring whither I will take them or no, ſince I am a Priſoner already.
B.
But you muſt give a poſitive anſwer whether you will or will not take them, therefore let us know what your anſwer is?
P.
Since you do preſs me ſo much to give my anſwer, my anſwer then is this, That I have taken them already, and I conceive I am not bound by the Law to take them again, that is my anſwer.
Then Sir John A.
made ſome ſign to the Doctor to ſhew Mr. Powel the Oaths in the Statute Book: and ſo the Doctor ſought them but could not readily find them, then the Town Clerk went to help him, and one of them ſaid the Oath of Allegiance was in decimo ſexto Jacobi, the other Doctor ſaid it was in another place, but neither of them knew where.
P.
Gentlemen, Are you ſo unacquainted with the Law? the Oath of Allegiance which you looke for is in Tertio Jacobi, and there you find the occaſion of it, which was the Gunpowder Treaſon: and that Oath was never intended ſo much againſt Proteſtants (though Non conformiſts) as againſt Popiſh Recuſants, and yet which of them have it impoſed upon them, or are impriſoned for want of taking it.
B.
Well, will you take them, here they are, and we tender them to you?
P.
I have anſwered you already and need give you no other: Yet I will ſay more. That if you can prove that you have power to tender both the Oaths to me, and that I am in either of thoſe capacities, that the Statutes primo or quinto Eliz. mentions, I will take them, but I know you cannot.
A. and B.
Well, will you put that anſwer under your hand, and ſo tender Mr. P. paper.
P.
I am free to put it under my hand, but you may if you pleaſe return my anſwer, if you muſt return any at all. But Sir John A. and the Doctor could not agree in that particular how Mr. P. ſhould do it.
B.
But we have power to give that Oath to you.
P.
Sir, if you have, I ſay again, I will take it, therefore peruſe that Statute; ſo Sir Iohn A. looked into the Statute, and ſpake ſomewhat to the Doctor privately, which ſeems by the Drs. anſwer to him was, that they could not. For the Drs. anſwer was, but we can.
B.
But why are not you bound as well as others.
P.
Becauſe that the Statute directs the Oath to be taken by Officers Eccleſiaſtical and Civil, and ſuch as were to receive publick profits, and other perſons mentioned both in that and the other Statute of the Fifth of Elizabeth, and though I may be looked upon as an Eccleſiaſtical perſon, yet it appertains to the Biſhop to give it me.
B.
Are you a Miniſter Ordained?
P.
I have heretofore told you I was.
B
But by whom?
P.
Did not I tell you by God and Men.
B.
I, you mean the man Chriſt.
P.
If I did ſo, my meaning is right, but I mean by ſuch men as he hath appointed.
B.
Come, come, your Conſcience tells you, that you care for a Biſhop no more then another man.
P.
Thats true enough, I care for him and you alike, yet of the two I reſpect you more being a Civil Magiſtrate.
B.
But will you take them, anſwer yea or no, and veral other words the Doctor urged Mr. Powel again.
P.
If you muſt have yet a more poſitive anſwer, ſince you will neither let me ſee the order requiring me to take them, nor ſhew me that the Law which ought to be your rule, doth impoſe them upon me: though I do not abſolutely and peremptorily refuſe them, yet I will not take them now.
B.
Here Dr. B. interrupted Mr. P. in his ſpeech, and cry'd out to ſome preſent to bear witneſs that he ſaid he would not take them: thereupon one in the room ſaid I do bear witneſs.
P.
Sir, (ſaid he to the Dr.) you deal very diſ-ingeniouſly to catch at advantages, when none are given, and to abſtract and ſeparate my words: and Sir, ſaid he, to the other man you are alſo very uncivil to bear witneſs before you hear me out: and ſo Mr. Powel turn'd him to Sir John A. and ſaid, I deſire you would both hear, and obſerve what I ſay, and intended to ſay, but that I was interrupted▪ That ſince I have taken the Oaths already, and that I ſhall not know upon what terms I am to take them again, and the Law requires it not from me, I will not take them at this time, but will take further time to conſider thereof.
B.
Thereupon the Dr. went down ſtairs, and ſo Mr. Powel departed, and as he was going with the Deputy Keeper, the Doctor bid the Keeper keep him ſafe, &c.
Mr. Powel
(turning to the Doctor,) I would have you know, that neither my principles, nor cauſe, put any neceſſity upon me to make an eſcape, but I hope I ſhall be able to ſtand when you fall, meaning in the great judgement, when and where the wicked ſhall not ſtand. Pſal. 1.6. and ſo went to his priſon again.