Romes Ruin(1), Answer · Paragraph 7 – Paragraph 8
PAR. VII. Concerning the visibility of the Roman church, and how the Papacie hath been opposed in former ages.
CHALLENGE.
We then affirm, and let …ur adversaries disprove it if they can, that the Roman church hath been always visible.
Answer.
That a Roman church hath been always in some degree visible, we yeeld you gratis; but that the Roman church you mean, hath been so, we peremptorily deny. When we grant that a Roman church hath been always visible, our meaning is, that since the christian faith was at first planted by the preaching of the prime apostles, and watered with the blood of many millions of martyrs, there hath been always in Rome and the territories thereof, and provinces belonging to it, a church professing christian doctrine: in the beginning most purely, in the middle more impurely; but in the end, and at this day most corruptly. And what gain you hereby? that the Roman church you mean, that is, that church, or rather that faction in the church, for (papatus est in ecclesia, papatus tamen non est ecclesia) which professeth the present Roman faith, and adhereth to the Pope as supreme head of the church, hath been always visible? It will no way follow: christianity may be and was many hundred yeers without popery; and a church in Rome also, but as far different from the present Roman church, as Sicily in Cic. Ver. Act. 5. ut in uberri…. is Siciliae partibus Siciliam quare….Verres time was from the more ancient Sicily; and therefore as the oratour sought for Sicily in the most fruitfull parts of Sicily; so we at this day are to seek for the Roman saith, and church, so much commended by the apostles in Rome it self, and find it any where in the christian world, rather than there. To instance in the controversie about the head, which is the head of all controversies between us and from whence you take your denomination of pa…ists and papalins, we deny that there was any christian church at Rome, or else-where for many hundred yeers after Christ which acknowledged the Popes supremacie, or built their faith upon his infallibility. 2 Cor. 12. 11. Ambros. in 2 Cor 12. 11. Ch…ys. in Gal. …. 8. foreign, &c. foreign. Oecum. in hunc locum. Leo ser. de Pet. & Paul. Hos gratia Dei in tantum apicem inter omnia ecclesiae membr… provexit, ut eo in corpore cui caput est Christus quasi geminum constituerit lumen oculorum, de qu…rum, &c.St. Paul, we know, accounted himself nothing inferiour to the chief apostles. If your eyes be so dazled with the brightnesse of the Popes triple crown, that you cannot see Pauls equality to Peter, and consequently the equality of other bishops to the pope, in the letter of the text; yet you cannot but see it in the fathers commentaries. Hoc dicit (saith S. Ambrose) quia non est minor, neque in praedicatione, neque in signis faciendis, nec dignitate, sed tempore; that is, this the apostle speaketh (to wit, I am nothing inferiour to the chief apostles) because he is not lesse or inferiour, neither …n the gift of preaching, nor in the gift of miracles, nor in dignity, but in time. What, not inferiour to S. Peter? no, not to S. Peter, if S. Chrysostome take him right. As the Apostle calleth the Gentiles u…circumcision, so he calleth the Iews circumcision. And he sheweth himself to be of equall honour with the rest; and he compares not hims…lf to others, but to the chief of them; shewing, that every of them held the same rank of dignity. foreign (saith Oecumenius) foreign: see how he matcheth or equallizeth himself to Peter. Nay, which is more remarkable, Pope Le…, who, when he took Peter alone, extolleth him above the skies, and admitteth him (after a sort) in consortium individuae Trinitatis, that is, into the fellowship or copartnership of the undivided Trinity; yet meeting with Peter and Paul together, he doth equall homage and reverence to them both, and forbiddeth us to put any difference between them, in this or any other respect. De quorum meritis & virtutibus, quae omnem superant dicendi facultatem, nihil diversum sentire debemus, nihil discretum, quos & electio pares, & labor similes, & mors fecit aequales: of whose worth and vertues, It… sanct. Ma…i…s. beatus Petrus et Paulus eminent inter univers…s: verum inter ipsos, quis cui praeponatur, incertum est. Greg. l. 1. di…t. c. ult Paulus Apostolus Petro Apostoler. primo in principat… Apostolico frater es….which surpasse all ability of speech, we ought to have no diverse or different opinion of them, whose calling to the apostleship made them equa…l, and their travels in their office alike, and their martyrdom parallel. Here he compareth them, not onelyonly in regard of their personall gifts and labours, but of their calling and function, electio pares. S. Paul then (in Pope Leo's judgement) may go every where hand in handwith S. Peter, & he hath the right hand of him in the Popes seal, as is confessed by Bellarmine, who much troubleth himself to yeeld a sufficient reason thereof. And as S. Paul stood upon even ground (as it were) with S. Peter, and wit…tood him to the face: so did Polycarpus contest with Anicotus, and Polycrates with Victor (against whom he wrote a synodicall epistle,) and S. Cyp…. ep. 188. & Praefat. conc. Carthag. Ep. ad Mart. Mayer. ante Nic…n. conc. …uisque sibi vixit, & ad Romanā ecclesiā parvu… respectus habeb…tur. Bellarm. lib. 2. de Rom. pont. c. 17 Non est verum adeo parvum respectū a… Romanā ecclesiā habitum fuisse, sententia AEneae Syluii partim est vera, partim non est vera. conc. Carthag. c. 28 & conc. Milevit. c. 22. Sipresbyteri … pellarent ad trās…arina judicia, a nullo int…a Africā in communionem suscipiantur. Synod. …al. cap 28. Oport…re archiep. Constantinop…t nov… Romae ii…dem primatibus …onoris dignū …sse. Synod. Constan. in Trull. cap. 36. foreign. Plat. in Bonif. 3. A Phoca imperatore octinuit, magna tamen contentione, ut sedes beati Petri omnium ecclesiarum caput & dic…etur & haber… ab omnibus, quem quidem locum eccles. Constantinop. sibi vendicare conabatur.Cyprian with Pope Stephen. And therefore AEneas Sylvius (afterwards Pope) had good reason to affirm (though Bellarmin gives him the lye for it) that before the councell of Nice, parvus respectus ad Romanam ecclesiam habebatur; that is, that there was little account made of the Roman church or bishop. At the councell of Nice (which was neither called nor ratified by his authoritie, but the Emperor Constantines) all the preeminence he had, amounted but to a primacy of order, and his authority and jurisdiction exceeded not Rome, & suburbicas ecclesias, as Ruffinus hath it. After the councell of Nice, he contented himself with the style of, Urbis Romae episcopus, the bishop of the city of Rome. The church of Carthage forbad (under pain of excommunication) any in Carthage to appeal from their courts, ad transmarina judicia, intending, to the see of Rome. In the synods held at Calcedon, and Constantinople, the patriarch of Constantinople is equally ranked with him: the decree of the councell is, that Constantinople should enjoy like priviledges to Rome, and the patriarch thereof to be extolled, or, as the words are, magnified, etiam in ecclesiasticis, even in ecclesiasticall matters. Which words are most shamefully corrupted in the canonlaw, and etiam in ecclesiasticis, is turned into, non tamen in ecclesiasticis: the councell saith, even an ecclesiasticall matters; your canon alledgeth it, yet not in ecclesisticall matters. Perhaps the compiler of your canon-law thought it a meritorious work to falsifie a record for the advantage of the see of Rome; but to let that passe, and n…t to cut you out too much work at once. I affirm, & disprove it if you can, that never any bishop of Rome obtained the title of universal bishop before Boniface the third his time, who got it with much difficultie, by the means of Phocas the murtherer of his master: and mark it, I pray you, and glory in it if you please, that popery (properly so called) and Mahumetanism were both bred in one age, within a few years one of another.
PARAG. VIII. Touching the second note, universalitie.
CHALLENGE.
We affirm, that the Roman church hath been always catholike, viz. universall.
Answer.
If you had rub'd up your memory, as (it seems) you have rub'd your forehead, you would never let such a catholike falsitie, touching the catholike universalitie of your Roman church, to have fallen from your pen. For it is well known, and in part confessed by Alfonsus Alfon. a Castro, …it. Indulg. …lla…m. lib. 3. de ecclesia militante, cap. 3. Ecclesia est coetus hominum ejusd… fidei professione & …runde… sacr…rum co…union… …igatus sub regimine ligitimorum past… rum, ac praecipuèunius Christi in terris vicarii, Romani pontificis. Apo…. 20 7. A…d when the 1000 years are expired, sa…an shall be loosed out of his prison, & shal go out to deceive the n… tion, which are in the …ur quaters of the earth.and others, that antiquitie makes little, if any mention, of sundry particular points which at this day are held amongst you. You are not able to produce any kingdom, no nor province, no nor village, no nor hamlet, no nor man of note for the space of diverse hundreds of years after Christ, which agreed with you in all points of your Tridentine faith, or subscribed to the twelve new articles annexed thereunto. With what colour or shew of probabilitie can you affirm, that the Roman church (as you define it to be a company professing the present Roman faith under one visible he…d, to wit, the Pope) hath bin always universall or spread over the whole world, when it is known to all, who know any thing of the church story, (especially since the division of the christian church into the eastern or Greek, & the western or Latin church,) that the eastern or Greek church (in circuit as large, is not larger than the western) never agnized, nor doth to this day, either your▪ Popes supremacie, or your Trent creed; and in the western church it self, though popery prevail much and spread like a gangren very far (especially after the one thousand years, when satan was let loose) yet was there not any main point of popery established in the western church it self, without strong opposition and concestation. Even at this day (Gods holy name be blessed for it) the protestar…s in England and Scotland, France and Ireland, Germany Poland, Denmark Swethland, the Netherlands and elsewhere, if they countervail not in number the popish partie, yet they come very neer; and now what is become of your brag of universalitie? let us now examin your succession.