Full Answer to Apologetical Narration, Text (7 of 8)

Full Answer to Apologetical Narration · Text (7 of 8)

p. 2343. For the grounds and reasons of your pretended deepe silence, and forbearance of venting your opinions to the multitude, I grant they are well summed up by you, and I wish they had wrought as well with you to a deepe silence and forbearance; but whatever you say of the conscience and consideration of all these, and the weight of each, to have had such a power with you hitherto, the contrary hath been prooved, and I am ready yet further to make it good; and will upon your Reply to this Answer say a great deale more. But now I must come to examine each of your grounds apart; which you say wrought upon you not to attempt in the least to make a party or to act for your selves or way.

1. But we knew and considered, that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell, and that the beginning of strife would have beene as the breaking in of waters, and the sad and conscientious apprehension of the danger of rending and dividing the godly Protestant party in this Kingdome, that were desirous of Reformation, and of making severall interests among them, when there was an absolute necessity of their neerest union and conjunction, &c.

I answer, It is spoken like an Oracle, and might indeed have wrought upon you to a burying of your opinions, to a totall forbearance of them for a time, and to have spent your time in a p. 235conjuring all the Ministers and people of your way, not to have spoken a word, not to have appeared in the least for those points till the Reformation intended had been effected; but brethren, was it practised by you as well as it is here spoken? I beseech you, let your consciences answer, and in coole blood, (laying aside all particular interests, passion, prejudice,) consider whether it be not by your meanes, or by some of you more especially who writ this, that the godly Protestant party of this Kingdome desirous of a reformation, is rent and divided, and have severall interests mong them in a time when there was an absolute necessity of their necrest union and conjunction, and all little enough to eff…ct that Reformation intended: Have not some of your Sermons? have not the practises of some of you in assembling in private houses, and in the gathering of many to your Churches? have not your discourses and conferences with some Ministers and well affect…d people upon your points? (with many other things that I could name) been a great cause of rending and dividing the godly Protestant party, and of much distracting them, and of making severall interests? Whence have come all the rents and divisions (to speake of) in the godly Protestant party, all the …ets, stopps and delayes in the intended Reformation, but from you and by occasion and meanes of you? The authority of your names holding these opinions (having the reputation of Schollars, and of excellent Preachers,) whereby you are cryed up of many, and so much followed; your interest, and favour in too many considerable persons have drawne so much; had it not been for your sakes, these rents and divisions had never come to this head, there had not been that connivance, nor such delayes of setling governement, &c. most of the rest of your way were in comparison contemptible both for name and gifts, and could not have done that hurt; and why then, in a time (by your own confession) of absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction, and all little enough to effect that Reformation intended, and so long contended for against a common adversary, that had both present possession to plead for it selfe, power to support it, and had injoyed a long continued settlement, which had rooted it in the hearts of men, have you done so much by preaching and acting to rend and divide the godly protestant party? p. 236there was no absolute necessity, just at that time when you did preach and stirre for your way, for you to have done so; affirmatives though they doe bind semper, yet not ad semper, there were greater truths in doctrine and in Reformation of government, which you might have preached on for that time, but there was an absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction: I heartily with, this first Reason and ground deepely layed to heart by you, and then I know you must greatly repent for what you have done in this particular, since your returne into England; and had not God been, and were he not the more gracious, and better to us then ordinary, your carriage, and what hath been by your meanes, would have spoiled our Reformation, and hath done much to keepe the common Adversary in his present possession, and long continued settlement: but I pray God humble you for it, and forgive you; and seeing you knew and considered, that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell, and that the beginning of strife would have been as the breaking in of waters, why were you not contented with the giving of the first blow, and the first occasion of the quarrell, both by your former preaching and practising, but to adde this second great blow, the writing of this Apologeticall Narration, which though it be not on your parts the beginning of strife, yet it will prove as the breaking in of waters, and as the kindling of a fire, not likely to be put out in hast.

2. And this seconded by the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable, wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament, to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference; They having also by their Declarations to his Majesty, professed their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths against Popery and other heresies, and to have that respect to tender consciences as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences which hath formerly been.

I judge this ground seconding the former, should have been powerfull with you to a deepe silence and forbearance, every particular branch of it speaks strongly to you, to forbeare what ever might any way be like to occasion; or augment this unhappy difference; Nay almost every word in it, …s an argument to command, p. 237The instant, and continuall advices, and conjurements of many honourable, wise, and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament, what might not all these have wrought? and then take in also, that they had by their Declarations to His Majestie, &c. and that they would have a respect to tender Consciences; Now what could you almost have wished more, or what better securitie for your selves and way: A man would thinke all these might have commanded you, not to have acted for your selves and way, and certainly your fault was the greater in doing contrary, and you are the more inexcusable, had not this seconded the former, yet your knowledge of the first was enough to have taken ingenuous spirits, but this seconding the first, it is too bad that you went contrary to the instant and continuall advices, and conjurement, of many Honourable, wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament. As for those passages inserted in this Reason, the Parliaments Declarations to his Majestie, professing their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths, and to have that respect to tender Consciences, wherein you would insinuate that the Parliament had put you in some hopes of a Toleration, and that grounded upon some passages in their Declarations, had you named what Declarations speake so, I could have perused and examined them, and have returned you an answere (I question it not) from the words and sense; but to put it out of doubt, that the Parliament intends no Toleration, in such words as having respect to tender consciences, &c. I referre you to the first and great Remonstrance and Declaration of the House of Commons, wherein they declare the contrary, and ingage themselves to the Kingdome against it, answering to that as a Calumnie cast upon them to traduce their proceedings: They infuse into A Remonstrance of the state of the Kingdome. Printed. 1641.the people that we meane to abolish all Church-Government, and leave every man to his owne fancy for the Service and Worship of God, absolving him of that obedience which he owes under God unto his Majestie, whom we know to be intrusted with the Ecclesiasticall Law as well as with the temporall, to regulate all the members of the Church of England by such rules of Order and Discipline as are established by Parliament, which is his great p. 238Councell in all affaires both in Church and State: And we doe here declare that it is farre from our purpose or desire to let loose the golden reynes of Discipline and Government in the Church, to leave private persons, or particular Congregations to take up what forme of Divine Service they please; for we hold it requisite that there should be throughout the whole Realme a Conformity to that Order which the Lawes enjoyne according to the Word of God: And we desire to unburthen the Consciences of men of needlesse and superstitious Ceremonies, suppresse innovations, and take away the monuments of idolatry. And the better to effect the intended Reformation, we desire there may be a generall Synod of the most grave, pious, learned and judicious Divines of this Island, assisted with some from forraine parts professing the same Religion with us, who may consider of all things necessary for the peace and good Government of the Church, and represent the results of their Consultations unto the Parliament, to be there allowed of and confirmed, and receive the stamp of authority, thereby to find passage and obedience throughout the Kingdome. Also I referre you to Declarations both of Lords and Commons about Uniformitie in Church-Government, Worship, &c. intended by them. And for the words as you expresse them here, respect to tender Consciences, as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences which had formerly been; they interpret themselves, implying a taking away the Ceremonies and other offensive things, and a not inforcing and injoyning Subscriptions to all points in matter of Order and Externall Government, as had formerly been: but as for Tolerating different Churches, and a different forme of Church-Government to be publikely exercised, besides the established, as I doe not beleeve that to be any part of their meaning in their Declarations, so their words are expresse against it in the first Remonstrance, and in some later Declarations; besides that the Parliament well knowes a Toleration would bring in greater inconveniences to tender Consciences then can at first be imagined, and would prove a farre greater mischiefe to the Church, and to Reformation both in Doctrine and Government, then the Episcopall.

3. Together with that strict ingagement willingly entred into p. 239by us for these common ends with the rest of our brethren of the Ministery (which though made to continue but ad placitum, yet hath been sa…red to us:) As for this third ground alleadged by you for silence, it prevailed no more with you then the former, for notwithstanding this strict ingagement, even since that time you have both preached, and printed for your way, namely M^r Borroughs▪ M^r Bridge, M^r Sympson, and M^r Goodwin, and many of the particulars formentioned have been preached since that agreement, so that it seemes it hath not beene so sacred to you as you would make the Reader beleeve. But if you answer, you understand that engagement entred into with the Ministers was sacred to you, and so observed as long as the agreement lasted, but the particulars instanced in preached by you were since that agreement ceased by mutuall content: I answer, your words, and the scope for which they are brought joyned to the precedent passages referre to a silence, and forbearance till the time of putting forth this Apologie, and that Parenthesis, which though made to continue but ad placitum, implies so much, that though you were at libertie, yet you tooke not that libertie. But secondly, I must mind you that the ground-worke laid by you, by which you would the more commend your owne silence, and moderation, namely the agreement to continue but ad placitum was not so, for it was agreed upon, it should continue till both sides in a full meeting did declare the contrary, and in case one side did transgresse by preaching, &c. none of the other side should take liberty to doe the like, till the company was acquainted with it, and the thing proved, and the matters of difference not being taken up, the agreement thereupon was declared to be null, whereupon, though some men included, and particularly named at the agreement were complained of in a full meeting to have transgressed the agreement, yet it was still continued notwithstanding some breach on the Independent side, in reference to the publike union against the common enemy, and for those common ends, which was the first ground of it. 3. I desire it may be considered of by M^r Borroughs M^r Sympson, and M. Bridge, whether some passages in some of their Sermons and Expositions about the Church way, will not by calculating the time when they were preached, and the p. 240time of the engagement for silence, (namely before the formall Declaration of the Companie in a publike meeting, that the agreement ceased, and that every man was left to his former libertie) be found to be preached within the compasse of the time, even before the mutuall strict engagement was declared null: And because you here give the occasion by making this mutuall strict engagement between you and us one great ground of your deep silence, I shall faithfully, and impartially (to my best remembrance) relate that whole businesse of the agreement of the Ministers for silence, the truth of which many Ministers then present upon the place can testifie also: The Ministers of both sides, both they and we desirous of Reformation in Church-Government, and Worship, being sensible how much our differences, and divisions might distract the Parliament, and hinder the taking away of Episcopall Government, and the Reformation intended, in a full and great meeting consulted together upon wayes to prevent it, and by vote agreed upon these: 1. That the Godly Ministers of the Citie and Countrey should continue the use of some part of the Liturgie (namely, what was best, and least offensive,) because they found that the Bishops fought under that Banner, and made use with the Gentrie and body of the common people to wrap up themselves in that, suggesting that the Parliament would take away the Common Prayer Booke, (which they made use of to save their owne standing, and to worke their owne ends the better.) And M. Goodwin ingenuously professed that he judged the moderate use of the Lyturgie in this juncture of things, and for a time, conduced much to the Reformation aimed at, and were his Principles as ours, that any prescribed Prayers might be used, he would use it, (and saving his Judgement about Lyturgies) his vote was to use it, whereupon there being such a generall concurrence of Judgement amongst the Ministers, some one or two Ministers in the Citie who were taken notice of wholly to disuse it, and to have laid it aside in all Administrations, were sent unto from the Company of Ministers (and one of them came presently) to whom the sence of the Company was represented, and he dealt with to take it up againe, and to use some part of the Prayers in the Lyturgie, especially in the Administration of the Sacraments. Secondly, p. 241the Ministers finding that the preaching of some Lay-men, Tradesmen, and Mechanicks in the publique Congregations was a great stone of offence in the building of the Temple, a way was agreed upon by the Ministers to deale with them, and to take them off that practise, and some of the Company (judged to be most gratious and powerfull with them) were chosen by the whole to deale with them, and to acquaint them with the sense of the Ministers, and some grounds against their practise, especially at that time (though the Company of Ministers who sent; declared formally their judgement against the practise of it at all times,) Thirdly, A mutuall silence was agreed upon for both sides, both in preaching, printing, and conferring with the people, (and especially Parliament men) of any of the points in difference betweene us, but yet so that both they and we should joyne together to preach against the Anabaptists and rigid Brownists, which these Apologists promised, only they desired first to bring in a Narrative to us; of all their opinions that they held in difference, (which also they promised with all convenient speed, in a short time should be brought in, and then they would preach against them;) Now for the better keeping of the agreement, and understanding one another, for preventing mistakes, and differences amongst us, a Committee was chosen out of the Company, some of them, and some of our side to draw up the particulars in writing, which was accordingly done, and the Agreement under the hands of both sides for our part was to be left with M. Calamie (at whose house we met,) that so if any difference did arise, or complaint come, we might recurre to the writing drawne up betweene us, and accordingly doe: Now this strict engagement entred into by you with the rest of your brethren in the Ministery for common ends, brought by you here as one great ground of not attempting to make a party, and of your deepe silence and forbearance, no one thing that ever was done by you was more advantageous to your side, and to the increasing of a party, (which indeed proved as it was feared it would, and was by my selfe and some others objected as a ground against any such agreement,) for looke what came of the Declarations set out by the King (by meanes of the Bishops) that in the Arminian points there should be on both p. 242sides a totall silence in preaching, and printing, (namely, a greater prevailing of the Arminian points, and spreading of them, but a suppressing of the Orthodox) so fell it out here, for by that meanes nothing was preached, nor printed against their way to hinder the growth of it, but in the meane time many things were preached and printed for it, our side made conscience of the promise, and forbore totally preaching and printing: For my owne part though for many Reasons I desired to have been excepted from the agreement, as being engaged by a former promise in print to set out speedily some Tractates against their way, and never did formally promise silence, yet because my brethren undertooke for me (for without my forbearing to print and preach, they would not have yeelded to the Agreement) that I might not be singular, and goe against the Judgement of all my brethren (though my Judgement was against the promise of silence upon what I evidently foresaw would follow upon it, the advantage they would make by it to encrease a party) and that I might not be guilty of hindering the common ends held out, I did totally both in preaching and printing decline all those points of difference, and notwithstanding I heard and knew that some of their side preached contrary to the agreement, yet all that time, untill it was openly declared in a full Assembly the agreement was broken, and I declared I would be at freedome, and some of them said the like, I preached not upon those points, whereas in this time many of their way preached for their way both in Citie and Countrey, and some who by name were spoken of at the agreement (as M^r P. and M. W.) besides bookes were printed too in that interim for their way, as M. Cottons answere to M. Ball about Formes of Prayer, and his Church Catechisme, &c. In a word in the whole carriage of that businesse they were too hard for us by their policie and subtilty, for whereas a mutuall silence was agreed upon both in preaching, &c. and that out of hand they should bring in a Narrative of their opinions wherein they differed from us, and then should joyne with us in preaching against the Brownists and Anabaptists, they never brought in their Narrative till this day, and though at full meetings of the Ministers they have been spoken unto, and some Ministers have been sent from p. 243the Company to some, or one of them, and the Narrative was promised at such a time, and then at such a time, yet it was never performed, and whereas the agreement in writing for our side was left in M. Calamies hand, M. Nye comes after some time to M. Calamy, and pretends some reasons for to borrow it for a while, but after he had it, he carries it away into Yorkshire, that so upon occasions of complaints of the breach of the agreement, when we would have consulted with that, that was gone, and M. Nye keepes it till this day, and having been moved to restore it, his answer is, it is at Hull amongst other papers.

4. And above all the due respect we have had to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State, the hopefull expectation we have been entertained with of an happy latitude and agreement by meanes of this Assembly, and the wisdome of this Parliament.

Strong motives indeed, peaceable and orderly Reformation with a hopefull expectation of an happy latitude and agreement, powerfull and effectuall to have commanded peaceable and orderly men, but though you make these grounds above all the rest to have carried weight, yet they could no more prevaile with you then the forenamed, (as I have fully proved) and whether you have had such due respect to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State, let what followes speake: Is it peaceable and orderly in a time when the Magistrate makes it his maine worke to reforme, and cals so many godly learned Ministers from all parts to consult with, to settle the Church and Government according to the Word of God, for particular private men to gather Churches, and to adde to them daily without and against the consent of the Magistrate; yea, against the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable, wise, and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament, to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference; now no one thing could hardly more occasion or augment the differences then this of gathering Churches, according to your way, one or two out of this godly Ministers Parish, one or two out of this Family, the wife from the husband against his consent, &c? Againe, is it peaceable and orderly for these gathered p. 244Churches to meet on the Sabbath day in private houses at the times of the publique Assemblies, whereby great tumults and combustions have been and may be occasioned in the streets? And is it a due respect to peaceable and orderly Reformation to preach publiquely upon points in difference, and for a Toleration of divers Sects and opinions? And lastly, is that a due respect to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and Si…te, to see in Churches (where you, and other Ministers of your way have preached) great tumults and disorders committed by your followers against the use of any part of the Lyturgie, and yet never to reprove them for it, nor to teach them to expect and wait till the Parliament would settle things▪ which of you have preached against the tumults in Churches, or the Lay-preaching, or the gathering of Churches by the people? We have had a sprinkling of a little Court holy-water for a colour in one or two Sermons against some who say we have had no Churches, no Ministers, &c. with which the eyes of many men who have not studied the controversies, neither understand them have been blinded; and by which you have the more readily drawn some either to your Church-way by your pretended moderation, or to plead for you against the aspersion of Brownisme. But what have you either done really; or forborne for the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State, have not all the notorious and visible disorders in our Churches (since this Parliament) both in Citie and Countrey (which have wrought such great disgusts in many (though unjustly) against the Reformation and the Parliament, that as old Iacob …aid to Simeon and L…vi, Ye have troubled me; to make me to stincke amongst the inhabitants of the land, and I being few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me; and …ay me, &c. so might Reformation and Parliament speake) been committed by your followers, and men of your way and …ommunion▪ yea many of them in your presence, when some of you have been to preach (for as for the rigid Brownists and A…baptists they come not to our Assemblies at all.) O the great advantage and gaine the common enemie hath made amongst many of these things, and the great losse and hinderance the Reformation and Parliament hath sustained by them. What that p. 245happy latitude and agreement is with which you have …een so hop… fully entertained by some, you should have done well to have spoken out, and have told us whether any men in place have given you promises of a Toleration for your way▪ (for I suppose by your phrase that is the happy latitude and agreement you meane,) B… if any have, I hope it is more then they can performe and mak… good, besides those persons are free from their promise, & you hav… justly forfeited that hopefull expectation, for whereas they entertained you with it (as your selves say) that you might keepe silence, and forbeare all acting for your selves or way▪ you have practised quite contrary (as is evident by the many instances give… in my Answer to this Section▪) Now as this deepe silence and forbearance of yours, is sufficiently disprooved (for what heare I words, when I see deeds so contrary) so neither the conscience non cōsideration of all these, nor the weight of each have had any great power with you hitherto, but your own interests: For your private particular Church way hath prevailed with you above all the publike, to occasion great disturbance amongst the people; and so great disturbance hath been, and is occasioned by your meanes; that the swarme is up and settles in so many places; as without Gods great mercy, they will never be got into one hive againe. The Lord only knowes, when these disturbances will be setled and qui…ted, it were easie to fill up such a booke as your Apologeticall Narration with the particulars of the disturbances occasioned amongst the people; by meanes of you, and other Ministers of your communion. In a word, at that time when some of you whose names are here subscribed, did keepe any silence, I think it was not so much these Reasons pretended by you, as the advantage of our silence in forbearing preaching and printing, (some bookes being then even ready to have come out) that was aymed at; and was a greater w…ght then the Reasons here mentioned by you, and besides you in your wisedomes knew well enough there we… many of your way (though you were silent) would be doing and driving on the trade, there would be preaching and printing that would serve to take with the people; and in the interim you should gaine time to ripen, shapen and bring forth your opinions the better with their grounds▪ As to those words in the close of this Section▪ w… p. 246have and … yet resolved to …re all this with a quiet and strong … in th… strength of which we now speake or rather sigh forth this little, &c▪ So it seemes, witnesse this Apologeticall Narration, that you have, and are resolved to beare all this with a quiet and strong patience, It is a wonder if your patience was so quiet and so strong, (in the strength of which you now speake, or rather sigh forth this little booke) you could not forbeare a little longer from putting forth this Popular and Rhetoricall Discourse to take the people with, and to vindicate your selves and way (especially having so many advantages.) 1. That many of the mists gathered about you were in a great measure scattered without speaking a word. 2. The good opinion both Houses had of you to make you members of the Assembly, with other favours conferred upon you. 3. Your swimming with the streame of popular applause, cried up, and followed so by the people, with your great interest and familiaritie in many men of place and power. 4. Eminent Lectures, and the most publique places to preach in. 5. Above all, your being members of the Assembly, as also the Assembly being upon the very borders of the points in difference: In consideration of all which (I judge) a very little patience might have served the turne to have left the vindi…ation of your persons to God, and to a further … of you by …en; so that it seemes not true to me, that in the strength of a quiet and strong patience you now speake or sigh forth this Apologie, but rather this Apologie was made for want of patience to wait, and out of that common designe of acting for your selves and way, and to lay in something before hand with the Parliament and the people, (what ever the Assembly might chance to conclude,) in a word, to prejudge the Assembly, to play the fore-game, and to prepossesse the mindes of men with a further high opinion of you and your way, but I beleeve, God hath turned all to the contrary, taking the wise in their owne craftinesse, and this Apologie hath, and will make more against you then any one thing you ever did. I have beene told by an intimate familiar friend of yours, that one of you five told him, it proved quite contrary to your expectation, and you admired at it, it should be so ill taken by the Assembly, &c. It is the worst evill that ever befell you since your returne p. 247from your exile, worse then all the misunderstandings and misrepresentations of your opinions, and the incitements to the S…te edged with calumnies and reproaches against Toleration of your Churches, and the suddaine and unexpected noyse of confus…d exclamations: So soone as ever I read it over with deliberation, I presently apprehended it the beginning of your fall, (in regard of your Church-way,) and could not but wonder at the Providence of God, in leaving you to pen such a strange piece, both for matter and manner, so justly liable to exceptions and offence, which would loose you among your friends, and draw pens of all sorts, and from all parts against you, and give occasion for drawing up such answers to it (and you can blame none but your selves) as would upon necessitie discover, and lay open both matter of fact and opinions more then ever else there would have been any pretence of ground to have done it. As for referring the vindication of your Persons to God and a further experience of you by men. I answere, that without great repentance for this Apologeticall Narration, and some other practises since your returne into England, in stead of Gods vindicating your Persons, you cannot but expect God will visit you; and whether hereafter men may have occasion to vindicate you upon further experience of you, I referre that to time, but for the experience they have had of you this Parliament, before the writing of this Apologie, and by the writing of it, and since till this very day, they can have no great cause of vindicating you, but rather (particularly by this Apologie) they have matter of great offence and scandall: And I judge this Apologie hath in one sence given a further experience of your wayes and spirits to men, then the experience of many yeares hereafter might have done. As for referring the Declaration of your judgements, and what you conceive to be Gods truth therein to the due and orderly agitation of this Assembly; why did you not as you speake, referre it to the agitation of the Assembly, but write this booke just before the agitation, wherein you had declared your judgements in the points controverted, and let me aske you, seeing you meant to referre the declaration of your judgements to the due and orderly agitation of this Assembly, why would you agitate the points before hand, as in this Apologie, in so undue and p. 248disorderly a way, why would you so publiquely engage your selves in print before hand, yea, and peremptorily conclude the points before ever disputed, (as in the 22, 24. pages you doe.) And let me tell you, you had ne… agitate what you conceive to be truth in this cause more duly and orderly in the Assembly, then you doe in the Apologie; for I beleeve this Apologie (considering all circumstances) was borne and brought forth the most out of due time and order of any booke put forth thi… forty yeares. As for that clause, of this Assembly wh…reof both Houses were pleased to make us members, it might have been here spared, because in the title of the book, and in other places you speake of your selves as member… of the Assembly, but if you added it here as by way of acknowledgement of the great favour and good pleasure of the Houses to make you so, (being members of other Churches then the Church of England, and having received another Ministery, and never purposing to be bound by the determinations of the Assembly,) then there may be some reason of this addition.

And whereas our silence upon all the forementioned grounds (for which we know we can never lose esteeme with good and Apolog.wise men) hath been by the ill interpretation of some, imputed either to our consciousnesse of the badnesse and weaknesse of our Cause, or to our unabilitie to maintain what we assert in diff… rence from others, or answer what hath been written by others, we shall (with all modesty) onelyonly present this to all mens apprehension… in confutation of it. That what ever the truth and justnesse of our Cause may prove to be, or how slend…r our abiliti…s to defend it, yet we pretend at least to so much wisedome, that we would never have reserved our selves for, but rather by all wayes have declined this Theatre, of all other, the most judicious and severe, an Assembly of so many able, learned, and grave Divines, where much of the Piety, wisedome, and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one, honoured and assisted with the presence of the Worthies of both Houses at all debates (as often as they please to vouchsafe their presence) as the stage whereon first we would bring forth into publique view our Tenets (if false and counterf…it) together with our owne folly and weaknesse: We would much rather …ave chos…n to have been v…nting them to the multitude▪ p. 249apt to be seduced, (which we have had these three yeares opportunity to have done.) But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths, and reforming the Churches of Christ, we have adventured our selves upon this way of God, wisely assumed by the providence of the State; And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages (which we could not but foresee) both of number, abilities of learning, Authority, the streame of publique interest; Trusting God both with our selves and his owne truth, as he shall be pleased to manage it by us.

I answer, whereas you speake of silence upon all the forementioned grounds, you have not been silent in the Pulpits, and among the people, but in many Sermons, and in divers Congregations, and at sundry times, most of you have both plainly, particularly, and at large, (besides more darkly and generally) preached your Church-way: so that, what you would inferre is denyed you, for had you indeed been silent amongst the people, and where you ought to have kept silence, you could not have lost esteeme with good and wise men, but it had beene your praise with God and Men: but this is that I charge you with, and for which you may well suffer in the thoughts of good and wise men, that you have been very silent and reserved where you should have spoken, and have been desired; and where the free and plaine declaring your judgements would not have prejudiced the forementioned grounds, but on the other hand where you should have been silent, and your speaking could tend to no other ends, but to di…union in dividing the godly party, and to the increasing of your owne party, there you have been free to speake out, but to your godly and learned brethren in the Ministery differing from you, you never brought in a Narrative of your Tenets, (as was desired, and you promised) nor ever laid downe clearly your positions with the grounds of them, (as who but you would in three yeares time have done, and have desired satisfaction) but you still declined disputes and reasonings upon the points in difference, as upon that about Formes of Prayer, (whereupon the meeting among Ministers was laid aside for a time.) You never answered any of the bookes written by men of much worth and learning, and with much strength and moderation, (as your selves p. 250confesse) but it was still given out by your followers upon the comming forth of the bookes, they should be answered, and that the Question was mistaken, and you held not so, with such like put off's: You have declined giving in your positions and grounds to some Parliament men that desired them, who promised to be ready to doe any thing for you, provided they might know what your way was, and see your grounds to consider of them, whether they were according to Scriptures: but now in Pulpits, and in houses among common people (and especially the female sex) apt to be seduced, strong in their affections, and loving too much Independency, but weake and easie in their understandings, not able to examine grounds and reasons, nor to answer you, there you have vented abundantly your conceits, setting fire upon the thatch of the house (as M^r Iohn Goodwin in former times used to expresse it.) Upon which grounds and considerations, no marvell though it were interpreted by some Ministers, and by my selfe too, (I freely confesse it) that you were somewhat conscious of a weake and bad Cause, or of unabilitie to maintain what you asserted in difference from others, or to answere the bookes written against your way: and I appeale to the Reader, whether this was an ill Interpretation, or whether we might not justly and rationally impute such a silence to the badnesse and weaknesse of the cause, &c. It was ever accounted an argument of a weake and bad cause to delay, and shift off the triall, and hearing of it; and of a bad commodity to be shy of the light; and I have read it somewhere as a speech quoted out of Tertullian, that opinion ought to be suspected, which would be hid, and you know that common saying, Veritas non quaerit angulos. But as for that which you present to all mens apprehensions for the confutation of that Interpretation and Construction of your silence; That what ever the truth and justness… of your cause may prove to be, or how slender your abilities to def…nd it, yet you pretend at least to so much wisedome, that you would never have reserved your selves for, but rather by all wayes have declined this Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe, an Assembly of so many able, learned, and grave Divines, &c. I answer, it is no concluding argument, it followes not, because there is an Assembly now sitting, whereof you are p. 251members, where you resolve to bring forth your grounds for your Tenets, that therefore your former silence then, could not be imputed to consciousnesse of a bad and weake Cause, or unabilitie to maintain it, and it will appeare thus: because of the different times, and that distance between then and now, you might not see such good grounds, nor be so well versed and studied in it then; besides, you might be in great hopes that it would be long before any such Assembly should meet, (as it was) and when they did meet, it should be long before those points should come to dispute and debate, (as we see hath fallen out) and in the meane time you should gaine time, which Polititians and wise men (as you are) make much account of, and set that against many things, whereby to worke out their ends; and then you should try the spirits of men in the Assembly, and see how things were like to goe; and if things did not cotten to your mind, you might returne back, and so never discover your weaknesse, but if things went on well, and affaires were likely to succeed on the Parliaments side, and matters must come to dispute and debate in the Assembly, then you would doe as you should finde occasion, and fall upon such consultations as the times would suffer, then reason and dispute it when brought to a necessity, and it could not be helped; but yet so long as no need kept it off, especially upon some hopes it might never come to that: many will adventure upon a thing with more disadvantages when they see there is no remedy for it, who yet so long as they can be at choise and at liberty will decline the thing out of diffidence of their strength, and feare of their ability to carry it. Many a man shuns fighting when he can avoid it, out of consciousnesse of his weaknesse, and want of skill, and hopes of doing so still, who yet when he must either fight or die, will fight and lay about him as well as he is able, and this was, and is your case: …d whereas you say, what ever your Cause may prove to be, &c. yet you pretend at least to so much wisedome that you would never have reserved your selves for the Assembly, &c. I must answer you, I beleeve upon good grounds, and so do many more, you never tooke any great content or joy in the thoughts of this Assembly, but have done your utmost to delay it, and to put it by: God knowes your hearts, and men some of your speeches about p. 252the meeting of this Assembly, but seeing it could not be helped, and that you could not keep it off by all your friends, you could neither will nor chuse, you have reserved your selves, and not by all wayes declined being members of it; and good reason why, for otherwise you must have lost all, and for ever have had your mouthes stopt for your way, if being chosen of the Assembly you had declined it; but by being members of the Assembly, you hoped at least to doe something for your way, hinder, and stumble the other way, keep it longer from being setled (by which you should gaine, and make an advantage) or get a Toleration for your Churches, or possibly might carry it at least in some things: For without doubt you reasoned after this manner, There are some ten for our way in the Assembly, and we hope to bring in more of our mind (as you have attempted since the sitting of the Assembly) some besides there are of the Assembly fairly inclining towards us, and ready to comply with us, some also but little studied in the points, and other more indifferent about Government: now we in policie, diligence, speech, and parts excelling many others too, may have some hopes to carry it, or at least to qualifie and moderate the Assembly to our way; (especially having observed the Ministers so desirous of peace, and loath to breake with us almost upon any termes:) but supposing the worst whatever the issue of things might prove to be in the Assembly, you had this Maxime to guide you by, when men can doe no otherwise, they must doe as well as they can: And as for the wisedome you pretend unto, not to bring forth your Tenets into publique view first on the stage of the Assembly, (if false and counterfeit) together with your own folly and weaknesse: I answer, the wisedome that many have pretended to, (as much as you can) hath deceived them; and instead of truth and strength have brought forth their folly and weaknesse; and whe…her none of you, who pretend to much wisedome, have not in the Assembly brought forth into publique view, upon occasion of your Tenets, their folly and weaknesse, I leave the Assembly to judge of that. OnelyOnly before I take off my hand from this brought by you in confutation of the ill interpretation of some, I cannot l…t passe this testimony given by you Five to the Assembly: That it is a Theatre of all other the most judicious p. 253and severe, an Assembly of so many able, learned, and grave Divines, where much of the piety, wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one, &c. which testimony given by you to this Assembly, and that Character given by you of the people and the Professours of this Kingdome in page 24. and 28. are worthy to be observed and are of great use in these times, when the Assembly and their proceedings are so much traduced and spoken against by your followers and Churches; and let me make this use of it to the people, and sadly put this question to their Consciences, Whether is more probable, that an Assembly so judicious, of so many able, learned, and grave Divines, where much of the pietie, wisedome, and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one, going in Gods way (as you say, page 28.) making it their worke and businesse to find out the Government and the truth about the order of the Church visible, and giving freedome of debates to men of different mindes and apprehensions, seeking God publiquely and privately daily (with so many prayers put up for them in all Churches at home, and abroad beyond the Seas,) should find out the truth; or M^r Lockyer, Mr Batchelor, M^r Carter, with a company of weake, ignorant men and women, youths and maids, apt to be seduced, and ready to take any impressions, and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way? As to those words: We would much rather have chosen to have been venting them to the multitude apt to be seduced: I answer, so you did, much rather chuse to vent your opinions and principles both in publique and private to the multitude, apt to be seduced, according to the opportunities you had these three yeares, then to communicate them to your godly brethren of the Ministerie, (as I have before fully shewed.) For this passage of yours, But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths, and reforming the Churches of Christ, wee have adventured our selves upon this way of God, wisely assumed by the prudence of the State; whether this be so or no, that you have had a conscientious regard to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truth, and reforming the Churches of Christ, let my last answer, and what is before proved witnesse, and if out of a conscientious regard to the orderly, &c. you adventured to be p. 254members of the Assembly, and upon this way by an Assembly of searching out truths, why did you not before the Assembly forbeare the disorderly and unpeaceable way of venting your selves to the multitude, and of gathering Churches, &c. as also since the Assembly the disorderly and unpeaceable way of searching out truths in writing this Apologie, in preaching some Sermons, with some other practises, which were no orderly nor peaceable wayes of searching out truths (especially the Assembly sitting;) But them beleeve you that will, I judge, and that upon grounds and hints already given, that other things made you adventure to be of the Assembly, and to come thither constantly, rather then the conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths; and I cannot let passe without some animadversions the phrase used by you here of your being members of the Assembly, We have adventured our selves, a very significant and true expression, for I beleeve you accounted this Assembly a great Adventure for your Church-way, and such a bottome as you would not have put it in, (at least not so soon) if all the wayes you could have devised under heaven would have hindred it, but it happened to you according to the Proverbe, Nothing venture, nothing have; for supposing there must be an Assembly, you might perhaps by being members of it doe your selves and way some good, but by declining and refusing it, you had been certainly lost. But brethren, what is the reason, that in this Section, wherein you give so full a testimonie to the Assembly, and of your great adventuring to be members of it, that you annex in the close these words following: And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages, both of number, abilities of learning, Authoritie, the streame of publique interest, trusting God both with our selves and his own truth, &c. Whether does not this somewhat reflect upon the Assembly? as if there were a great hazard that things would be carried there by number, abilities of learning, Authority, the streame of publique interest, rather then by truth? for if points were not likely to be carried so, by plurality of Votes, &c. but by the clearest proofes from Scripture, then these were no disadvantages to you, but all the advantage, would lie on that side whether many or few, whether greater Scholars, or lesse, that could bring the strongest Scripture p. 255grounds; and I must tell you, that in such an Assembly as you confesse this is and is well known to be, both for the persons and ends of its calling, that great liberty of speech and debate, with that solemne Protestation taken by every member at first sitting there, a man need not account those things specified by you for any disadvantages: for any two or three men, nay, one of a different judgement in Doctrine or discipline from that Assembly, having truth on his side, and but so much learning as to manage and make out his evidences (though a man of no authority) might easily cause the consciences of most there to owne and fall downe before that truth, and to change their mindes; yea, and to blesse God for the light, and imbrace the person or persons that brought it; much lesse need you, whose number is sufficient, about ten (besides some who are halfe Independents,) having parts and abilities enough, and Authority to manage your arguments, and even to command free and long audience, complaine of these things for disadvantages; but I am jealous this passage is here inserted and brought in to possesse the peoples minds (fearing by this time this Apologie was set out things might not goe on your side) and to give them something to confirme them in your way, to teach them what to say, namely, though you had the truth, and brought such strong arguments as were not answered, yet you could not be heard, but matters were carried against you by pieces, (the greater number of the Assembly by far being of another judgement, as also by the streame of publike interest, Authority, &c.) And many of the people of the Church way speake thus already, that the Assembly cannot answer your arguments, but beare you downe with numbers, the Parliament should have done well to have chosen as many of your way as on the other side, and then there would have been a faire and even triall: but I will examine all your disadvantages apart, and give you and the Reader a particular account of them.

First, For Number, though you have not so many of your judgement in the Assembly, yet you have a competent number to plead your cause, and to be the mouth for all of your way, to speake whatever any of your way can say for it. Secondly, When an Assembly was first agreed upon, there were not many more Ministers and Schollers of your way in the Kingdome, who were capeable of p. 256such a service, (how ever you may be encreased since) so that you had as much advantage as your condition was capeable of, yea and favour too. Thirdly, Considering the many hundred Ministers in this Kingdome that petitioned for Reformation, and subscribed the Remonstrance, (who also bore the heate of the day and never flinched for it,) and the small number of the Independent (who fled also to save their stake, and to keepe in a whole skin) having quitted to our Churches and Ministery, and making no account to be bound by the determinations of the Assembly, it is more in proportion, both Arithmeticall and Geometricall, to have Ten of you members in the Assembly, then some hundreds of our Ministers; and yet you know, the whole number of Divines who meet there, does not much exceed 80 persons. Fourthly, Number is little, where conscientious men having taken such a Protestation, come together to seeke out truth, being free also to receive and chuse any government laid downe in the word, and not over-awed by power or feare of crushing, nor byased by hopes of preferment: it is true in such an Assembly, as the Convocation house of Bishops and their Clarkes was, number was a great disadvantage.

Secondly, For abilities of Learning, I grant you there are many members of the Assembly goe farre beyond any of you in that, yet among you all, and in some particular men of you, there are abilities enough of learning, speech, and wit to bring out and enforce to the greatest advantage upon study, taking time (which you doe) and writing downe your grounds, any Scripture or Reasons for your way, so that you need not complaine for want of learning, but rather for want of truth in your cause, which will afford no better arguments for it.

Thirdly, For Authority, I know not well what you mean by that in this place (you having so many doubtfull passages in your Apologie) whether the Authority of Parliament, or whether the Ministers who are for Presbytery have greater Authority in the Assembly then you, or what else. Now if you meane the first, that the Presbyterian party hath the advantage of you, namely the Authority of Parliament: I answer, the Parliament interposes no authority to determine what government shall be, but calls the Assembly to advise with, and draw up for them what government p. 257is most agreeable to the word, giving also a liberty to the fewer number in matters of dissent to give in their Reasons (as you in the 30^th page grant, and imply you will doe;) And as for the Parliament who are Authority, there are but few Ministers of the Assembly, who have been able to doe more with them then you? or who have had a greater interest in their favour then your selves? witnesse all passages of Parliament from first to last, wherein the Parliament hath honoured any of the Ministers either in preaching before them upon solemne occasions, or in calling this Assembly; or in employing them about the Scottish affaires, either in Engla…d, or into Scotland, or in the setting up a Lecture at Westminster, or in appointing Licensers for printing of bookes, what ever it hath been, or how few the number that have been employed, though but two, or three, yet still an Independent hath beene one. But secondly, if you meane that the Ministers who differ in judgement from you have a greater Authority in the Assembly then you, I answer, you are all equall, having a brotherly equality there; the whole Assembly not having Authority, that is Jurisdiction and power of censure over the meanest, to cast him out, or to hinder him from speech, according to rule and order: And as for authoritie of speaking in the Assembly and of being heard, some of you have exercised as much of that as most there; and for authority with the people to lead them, whether you, or most of the Ministers in the Assembly have the greatest is no controversie; witnesse the deepe censures upon the Assembly, and the godly Ministers every where, by multitudes of the people, but the great applause and crying up of you and other independents: So that if authority with many well meaning people be an advantge it is on your side, and that hath done you heretofore some service, to make many men more shie of preaching against your way, because of your great authority with the people, that being ground enough to put many men out of the state of grace with some sorts of people; besides …f authority in the peoples hearts could sway any thing with the Assembly against the truth, yea but to suspend their judgements about the truth (as I am confident it doth not) then you would have the advantage of authority, to sway the Assembly rather to your side, then against you.

p. 2584. For the fourth disadvantage, the streame of publike interest, this is a dangerous insinuation against the Assembly, yea and the Parliament too, without whom nothing the Assemby doth can be of any validitie, as if they would be carried with the streame of publike interests rather then by the word of God, and would bend the word of God to the streame of publike interest; now let me put you this Dilemma, either the publike interest of this Kingdome at this time will stand and agree with the word of God, or it will not; if it will stand, then not only the Assembly, but you also should be for that interest, accounting the publike interest, so suiting to the word of God an advantage; but if it will not stand with the word, but that the streame of publike interest runnes one way, and Gods word another way, can you think the Assembly will be carried with publike interest, and leave the streame of the word? would not the Assembly rather follow the word of God, accounting walking according to that, the greatest and most publike interest? hath the Parliament, Kingdome and Ministers done and suffered so much for a Reformation according to the word of God, and now after all this, is there a streame of publike interest divided from the word, to carry away the Ministers called together, according to which a government must be framed, and the Church reformed, and this is the great disadvantage that some members of the Assembly who would goe according to the word of God meet withall, and must be put to swimme against: Bretheren what will the Prelates say of our Reformation and Church government when you speake thus? have not you put a sword into their hands this day against us? and shall we not heare of it? but I wish bretheren whilst you thus asperse the Assembly with the danger of being carried a way with the streame of publike interest, that the streame of your own particular private interest, and credit among the people did not too much carry you away, as many other waies, so in writing of this Apologie; But the Reader may aske, what is the plaine English of the streame of publike interest, according to which there was so great danger the Assembly would swimme? I answer, I conceive one of these two things, or else it is probable both are meant by the Apologists. 1. That the Ministers of the Assembly for themselves and their fellow Ministers, p. 259would stand for such a government as wherein the power should be in their own hands, and not in the peoples, to doe with them for maintenance and standing at their pleasure, and therefore they would establish Presbyteriall government rather then Independent. 2. The Parliament of England upon great Armies raised against them, needing help, calls in for the Kingdome of Scotland to assist them, now the Scots being for Presbyteriall government, and against Independent, and desirous of uniformity in government between the Kingdomes, therefore for gratifying the Scots, the Assembly is like to be swayed that way, is this the streame of publike interest meant by you? oh how unworthy an insinuation is this, and how prejudicall this will be to the Reformation in after times, I desire you to consider of in coole blood, and what the enemies will say of it, the government and Reformation of this Church was not free, not according to the word of God, but what Scotland would have, Englands need of Scotland made them at least swayed much to take up their government; but how ever this is insinuated for the holding up the credit of your cause against the time the Assembly shall come to reject it as Apocripha, yet I must tell you, you foresaw that, which is no such streame of publike interest, nor no cause of disadvantage to you: For the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were not sent hither to put their government upon us, but came as well to receive any light and help, as to give, and to come to us in what should be found upon debate more agreeable to the word, as we to come to them, and the Covenant of the Kingdomes doth not tye us to the Reformation of the Church of Scotland, but binds us to Reformation according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches; and then requires both of us and them an uniformity according to the word of God: And indeed the Assembly consisting of so many able, learned and grave Divines, where much of the wisdome, piety and learning of two Kingdomes are met, cannot well be thought to be carried away from the word by the streame of publike interest, especially most of the Assembly being men not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the reformed Churches, or by former declarations of their judgements, nor appointed by the Parliament to Presbyteriall p. 260government, but left freely to be guided by the light of the word in this way of God communicated to them, besides that the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland (however they be present in the Assembly to heare debates and to give their Reasons) yet never gave their voices in any point that hath passed the Assembly. As for the close of this Section, trusting God both with your selves and his own truth as he shall be pleased to manage it by us. Had you in adventuring your selves upon this Assembly, and therein really beleeving all the sorts of disadvantages (as you here speake) trusted God both with your selvs and that you call his own truth, some of you would never have brought such arguments for your way (as you have done.) And certainely if some of you did trust God as you ought with your selves, &c. you would not trust so much to your wits and policie, nor be so full of reservations, fetches, doubtfull expressions as you are. And brethren let me deale with you plainely (I hope it may doe you good,) many speake of your policie and subtiltie, some who are strangers to you (yet being members of the Assembly) and beholding your managing of your opinions and way there, wonder that good men should be so politick and subtill as you are, especially if the cause were good.

Moreover, if in all matters of Doctrine, we were not as orthodox Apolog.in our judgements as our bretheren themselves, we would never have exposed our selves to this triall and hazard of discovery in this Assembly, the mixture of whose spirits, the quick-sightednesse of whose judgements (intent enough upon us) and variety of debates about all sorts of controversies afoot in these times of contradiction, are such, as would be sure soone to find us out if we nourished any monsters or serpents of opinions lurking in our bosomes. And if we had carried it so, as that hitherto such errours were not afore-hand open to the view and judgement of all, yet sitting here (unlesse we would be silent, which we have not been) we could not long be hid. But it is sufficiently known that in all points of doctrine (which hitherto in the review and examination of the Articles of our Church, or upon other occasions have been gone through) our judgements have still concurred with the greatest part of our bretheren, neither doe we know wherein we have dissented. p. 261And in matters of discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre, or making the breaches greater or wider, that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld (as all may see and cannot but testifie for us) to the utmost latitude of our light and consciences; professing it to be as high a point of Religion and conscience, readily to own, yea fall down before whatsoever is truth in the hands of those that differ, yea though they should be enemies unto us, as much as earnestly to contend for and hold fast those truths wherein we should be found dissenting from them; and this is in relation to peace, so also as a just due to truth and goodnesse, even to approve it and acknowledge it to the uttermost graine of it, though mingled with what is opposite unto us. And further when matters by discussion are brought to the smallest dissent that may be, we have hitherto been found to be no backward urgers unto a temper (not only in things that have concerned our own consciences, but when of others also) such as may suite and tend to union as well as searching out of truth; judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods and Assemblies, as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determinations of truth one way.

Whether in all matters of Doctrine all of you be as Orthodox in your Judgements as your brethren themselves, I question it, (though in the most Doctrines and in the maine I grant it) I have been told of some odd things in matter of Doctrine preached by one of you five both in England and Holland, and of some points preached in the Church of Arnheim never questioned there, and since printed, not very Orthodox, as for instance (amongst others) that the soules of the Saints doe not goe to heaven to be with Christ, expresly contrary to the 2 Cor. 5. 6, 8. and to Philip. 1. 23. now whether some of you may not hold those opinions, seeing they were publiquely preached at Arnheim, and never condemned (as ever I heard,) I know not, but have reason rather to suspect you doe, how ever though you doe not nourish any Monsters or Serpents of opinions in your bosomes, yet I feare you have running wormes in your heads, and together with the gold, silver, and Ivory of Orthodox truths, you have store of Apes and Peacocks, conceits and toyes, as strange coined distinctions, new strained expositions p. 260duplicate page p. 261duplicate page p. 262of Scriptures, odd opinions about the personall raigne of Christ on earth, and I aske you what the annointing with oyle of sick persons as an Ordinance for Church-members, and what the bringing in of Hymnes composed by the gift of a Church-member, cum multis aliis, are? whether are not these strange conceits? and how ever you may be free of Monsters and Serpents of opinions lurking in your bosomes, yet there is much of a Monster and the Serpent lurking in this Apologie, and to be sure one Monster of opinions you all hold generally, and some of you have preacht for, A Toleration of divers sects and opinions, and let me tell you, granting you five be so Orthodox, and supposing your argument good to prove it, exposing your selves to the hazard of discovery in this Assembly (which is no concluding argument) yet there are many members of those Churches to which you belong, besides many other members of Churches of your way and communion, whom I suppose must be tolerated as well as your selves, that doe hold very odd and strange things. Some of Arnheim hold strange conceits, and some members of M^r Sympsons Church hold some of the points of the Anabaptists, and daily the Independent Churches like Africa doe breed and bring forth the Monsters of Anabaptisme, Antinomianisme, Familisme, nay that huge Monster and old flying serpent of the Mortality of the soul of man, and indeed there is no end of errours that the Independent principles and practises lead unto. As for those words, if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not aforehand open to the view and Iudgement of all yet sitting here, unlesse we would be silent we could not be long hid, &c. I answer, some one or two Heterodox opinions may be hid where men are Orthodox in the most, especially if all points of doctrine have not been discussed, nor reviewed, as in the Assembly they have not, (many Articles of our Church not having yet been gone through) so that your errours in doctrine may be behind, and your triall of being Orthodox will be when the Assembly comes to these Articles: Article 19, 22, 23. & 26. and when that doctrine concerning the Lawfulness of a Toleration of divers sects and opinions shall come to be discussed: But before I passe from this, I desire the Apologists to remember and the Reader to observe they call the Church of England Our p. 263Church, and so in the fift page of this Apologie Our own Congregations we meane of England. So that if you meane as you here write, then the Nationall Church of England is your Church and the Parochiall Congregations are yours, and so you establish a Nationall visible Church under the new Testament, and if so, why doe you erect other Churches, and withdraw from your own? but if you doe not meane so, nor beleeve there is a Nationall visible Church, nor account your selves members of this Nationall Church, why doe you speake so, and call the Church of England your own Church, and the Parochiall Churches your own Congregations? As for that part of this Section which concernes your good carriage in the Assembly in matters of Discipline, In matters of Discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre, or making the breaches greater or wider, that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld, &c. I not being present at the debates will say nothing against it, but whether since the writing of your Apologie, and the Assembly comming to the points of Discipline which are properly yours, (your free-hold) you have been so faire and moderate, endevouring upon all occasions to grant, and yeeld to the utmost latitude of your light and Consciences, that I doubt, and your best friends are not satisfied in it, but rather much offended, and you have much lost your selves with them, by your demeanour and way of managing matters of difference in the Assembly: But supposing all you say of your selves in this Section were fully so, both before, and since your Apologie, yet it were not much materiall, nor much to be trusted to, being upon the triall of your good behaviour: for it is probable all that may be done out of policie, in reference to the main designe of obtaining a Toleration, which at first cannot be imagined to have any probabilitie of being gained without all seeming fairenesse and compliance, and drawing neere to us, and therefore this Apologie is so framed in the words, phrases, and composure of it, that in it you have stretcht your selves to the utmost latitude, and highest compliance with the Church of England, and the Reformed Churches, even beyond what is meant by you in our sence, and in common acception, and beyond what many of your followers will own: As also you hide and reserve severall things you hold p. 264both in matter and manner, that so by all this you might court the Parliament, Assembly, Reformed Churches to beare with such conscientious men, who differ so little from them, and are so moderate and temperate also in and about the debate of those differences, but the Parliament and the Assembly are wise to see into and thorough these Artifices, and to consider that if once a Toleration were granted, there would quickly be discovered another face of things, which hitherto stands behind the curtain. As for this passage in the close of this Section, your not being backward urgers unto a temper not only in things concerning your own consciences, but others also, such as may suit and tend to union as well as searching out of truth, judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods, as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determintions of truth one way. I judge then you had but a weake ground to urge you to temper in matter of difference, and I question whether you were so forward to a temper in the things that might suit and tend to union, for I suppose you are so farie from holding that a great and usefull end of Synods, a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding Determinations of truth one way, as that you deny it: I have read a letter out of New-England from a Minister of note there, speaking of that Synod which met upon occasion of the Antinomians and Familists, formally denying this power of binding determinations to it: and in the Epistle before M^r Cottons late booke, M^r Goodwin and M^r Nye have many passages against Assemblies and Synods having power of binding Determinations (though a Ministeriall Doctrinall power they grant) and did you give to Synods and Assemblies in all sorts of lesser differences a binding Determination of truth one way, and not only of consultation, direction, and at utmost but of Doctrinall Decernment, the controversie would be at an end, and therefore in writing thus, judging that to be as great an end of Synods as this of binding Determinations, and not holding it, you hold neither, and then what tends all this to but to deceive the Reader.

And thus we have nakedly, and with all simplicitie rendred a Apolog.cleare and true account of our wayes and spirits hitherto; Which p. 265we made choice of now at first to make our selves known by, rather then by a more exact and Scolastique relation of our Iudgements in the points of difference about Church-Governement; reserving that unto the more proper season and opportunitie of this Assembly, and that libertïe given by both Honourable Houses in matters of dissent; or as necessity shall after require, to a more publique way of stating and asserting of them. In the meane time from this briefe historicall relation of our practises, there may a true estimate be taken of our opinions in difference, which being instanced in, and set out by practises, is the most reall and least collusive way, and carries its owne evidence with it. All which we have taken the boldnesse together with our selves humbly to lay at the feet of your wisedome and piety; Beseeching you to look upon us under no other Notion, or Character then as those, who if we cannot assume to have been no way furtherers of that Reformation you intend, yet who have been no way hinderers thereof, or disturbers of the publique peace; and who in our Iudgements about the present worke of this age, the Reformation of Worship and Discipline, doe differ as little from the Reformed Churches, and our brethren, yea farre lesse, then they doe from what themselves were three yeares past, or then the generality of this Kingdome from it selfe of late.

I wonder how you can say, We have nakedly and with all simplicity rendred a cleare and true account of our wayes and spirits hitherto, and for the truth of these lines I appeale to any indifferent Reader, and to your owne Consciences, upon the review and examination of your book, and I desire the Reader to remember what all along in my answer I have observed and made good against many passages both in matters of fact and opinion, and the result will be, that in truth the words may be inverted, in stead of Nakedly, covertly, in stead of all simplicitie, all subtilty, in stead of a cleare and true account of your wayes and spirits, a darke, conceal'd, and untrue account, so that your words might have been trulyer written, And thus we have covertly and with all subtilty rendred a dark, conceal'd and untrue account. of our wayes and spirits hitherto. As for those words, which we made choice of now at first to make our solves known by, rather then by a more p. 266exact and Scholastique relation of our Iudgements, &c. I answer it was the speciall hand of God against you and your way, (and I cannot but take speciall notice of it, and desire you would) that you should choose now at first to make your selves knowne by such an Apologie, and in such a way rather then by a Scholastique relation of your Judgements. A Scholastique relation would not have made you to knowne as this, neither have discovered your spirits, nor have given that just occasion and necessity of discovering you, it would not have drawne in so many against you, nor have drawne forth such answers as this: But let me aske you the reason, why chose you this way at first rather then a Scholasticall way, if you would now in the time of the Assembly have beene making your selves known in your tenets and opinions, and not have staied till the debating and discussing of them, it had been for many Reasons best to have printed an exact and Scholastique relation of your judgements in the points of difference, rather then such a popular and Rhetoricall discourse? Can there be any reasons given for it, but that this was writ to take the people with, to prepare their mindes for your way (for feare the Assembly should conclude against it,) and the more to engage your party to stand for you, (you having thus openly and confidently declared your selves,) as also, because you are best at this weapon, more able in a laxe discoursing way to expresse your selves, then in a close, presse, Syllogisticall, Argumentative way, and people are most taken with such kind of discourses, rather then with arguments. As for that you say of reserving that unto the more proper season, and opportunitie of this Assembly, and that liberty given by both Honourable Houses in matters of dissent, or as necessity sh…ll after require to a more publique way of stating and asserting of them. Why could you not as well reserve this Apologeticall, Narration a little longer as the Scholastique Relation of your Judgements, especially having reserved it so long, were you in such hast that the Assembly being upon the borders of the points in difference, nay they being brought in by the Committees to be discussed, you must send out such a discourse to prepare the way for you? did you hope the Assembly as well as the people would be taken with good words and such, flourishes? and since (as you pretend) the ground p. 267of your silence in page 27. (such a one as it was) was that you might reserve your selves for the Assembly, and let that be the stage whereon first you would bring your Tenets into publike view, why did you goe contrary, and first bring your opinions forth upon the stage of this Apologie to all the world, before you brought them to the Assemblie? and so frustrate your own resolutions, and crosse your own words in page 27. But before I leave this I cannot but observe that you expresse you will draw up your dissent from the Assemble in a Scholastique way to both Houses, and afterwards publikely print your grounds, belike you are beforehand resolved what to h…ld, and so are preparing your selves to draw up your grounds for both Houses, you meditate upon dissent and nonagreement, and I perceive the Assembly must expect to be dealt with by you, as the Synod of Dort was by the Arminians, you will be Remonstrants: well you may take your course, and begin when you please, the Assembly hath members enough able to deale with you at that weapon: As to those words, In the meane time from this briefe historicall relation of our practises, there may a true estimate be taken of our opinions in difference, which being instanced in and set out by practises, is the most reall and least collusive way and carries its own evidence with it. For answer, I propund to the Reader as followes this question of your words: In the meane time from this briefe, generall, partiall, conceal'd, untrue, historicall relation of your practises, there can be little true estimate taken of your opinions in difference; which being set out by practises but in part, and not the whole, in the bright side, and not the blacke, is the least reall, without any evidence in it, but the most collusive way, especially with the people, and with such who have not studied the controversies, nor know not the points in difference: But I will shew unto you a more reall way, if you will promise to answer positively, and plainely to such questions and positions as I shall draw up for you concerning your Church-way, then there may be an estimate of the opinions in difference, and for requitall of this, I will promise you to answer clearely and fully to any questions both of doctrine, discipline and worship that you can put unto me; As for those words, All which we have taken the boldnesse together p. 268with our selves, humbly to lay at the feet of your wisedome and piety, &c. I answer, it is a great boldnesse indeed to present such an Apologie to both Houses, the supreme Iudicatory of this Kingdome, which is and hath been in all times the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse to appeare before, wherein besides the questions and controversies so mistated, and so many doubtfull dark passages, there are many untrue relations, and I wonder how you durst presume to lay so much folly and indiscretion, with untruth, at the feet of so much wisedome and piety: had your Apologie been only adpopulum, who are weake, and apt to be deceived, it had been more excusable, but to appeale by such an Apologie to both Houses of Parliament is very strange, but we may see by this, how farre applause and favour with the people, and confidence of successe will carry men: You have need indeed to beseech the Parliament to looke upon you under no other notion or character then as those who if you cannot assume to have been no way furtherers of the Reformation, yet who have been no way hinderers thereof or disturbers of the publike peace. I think your consciences should tell you the Parliament hath reason to looke upon you under other notions and characters then you represent your selves by, which (I judge) is the ground of your deprecating the Houses, and indeed I wonder how you can make such a Petition to both Houses, for it is evident you have been no furtherers of that Reformation which the Parliament, or ever any wise State did in any age intend; but you may assume to have been furtherers of a Reformation for Independent government, and separation, which the Parliament never intended: But whether you have been no way hinderers of the Reformation intended, nor disturbers of the publike peace, let the things alledged in this answer speake, witnesse gathering of Churches, witnesse the tumults that have been in streets upon some of your private meetings, witnesse the disturbance of the publike peace in some Churches upon your preaching, and particularly if the delaying the work of Reformation, and setling Church government be some way an hinderance to it, and an occasion of disturbing the publike peace, then you five have not been the least nor last in some way hindering Reformation, and disturbing the publike peace. And bretheren what is the great p. 269thing that letteth, and will let but you five, I am confident had it not been for you five, and a few more, the Reformation intended, and the publike peace of the Church had been in a farre fairer way then now it is: Bretheren there are many complaints, and that by your deare friends of retarding the work of Reformation by your meanes, you are the Remora to the Ship under sailes, you are the spokes in the wheeles of the Chariot of Reformation; Parliament complaines, Assembly, City, Countrey, all complaine of the worke retarded, and all is resolved into you five principally: I could tell you many particular passages, but you know what I meane; In a word all the Prelates and the Papists cannot, nor doe not so much hinder the work of Reformation as you five members of the Assembly, and the Lord in merey worke so, that by occasion of you, and by meanes of your principles, and many persons of your Church-way, there doe not yet rise up another great mountaine before Zerubbabel, to hinder the laying the head stone of that building, the foundation whereof is layed. As for your differing so little in your judgements about the present worke of this ag…, Reformation of worship and discipline from the reformed Churches and your bretheren, &c. I answer, if so be that you differ so little from the reformed Churches, and your bretheren, yea farre lesse then they doe from what themselves were three yeares past, why doe you not then incorporate with us? why will you, or how can you answer it to God for that to make a rent? and to desire to have Churches of your own way, and to be an occasion of so much evill, as that would prove to this Church? the smaller the difference is the greater is the schisme and separation, for the lesse the cause of a separation is, the greater the fault is in those that make it. Are we come so farre to you so many miles, (as you imply in those words, from what themselves were three yeares past,) and will not you come a step or two to us for union and peace, and to heale that great schisme, with many other inconveniences: We have and are comming (blessed be God) a great way to Church reformation and worship, but the points that you would have us come to you in, besides that they are Apocripha not to be found in Scripture, we cannot being a Nation and Kingdome come to you in your way, your Independent government and particular gathered p. 270Churches cannot stand with a Nationall Reformation, as some of your way have confessed; and therefore would have but a toleration for themselves, but you may come to our Reformation easily; though a Nation cannot be contained in a few, yet a few may well in a Nation, besides if you by your confessions differ farre lesse from us then what we did from our selves three yeares past, why will you for all that great difference in us then, and now, and what need have you to goe make new separated Churches from whom you farre lesse differ, but what ever you say here of your small difference between you and the reformed Churches and us, the more to work with the Parliament for a toleration in some lesser differences, yet the differences, are held by you to be greater and more materiall, or else you would close with us so reforming; and among other particulars you differ more from your brethren then your brethren from themselves three yeares past, your brethren being of one Church both then and now, but you and your brethren being of two distinct Churches and communions, you setting up new because you cannot continue in the old with them, and certainely men of one and the same Church and communion differ lesse among themselves, then persons of a Church and communion set up against that Church, but least from this passage your followers should make use to tax the Ministers of our Church who have desired Reformation with inconstancie, and going according to the times, and your selves make use of it to defend your running so farre in your way, the Ministers differing farre more from themselves within this three yeares past then you doe from them, I must propound this to prevent those consequences, namely that most of your brethren both of the Assembly, and of other parts of the Kingdome differ little from themselves in judgement from what they held three yeares past, or many yeares past, namely might they have had their desire, and could their votes have carried it, they would have voted out Ceremonies, government by Arch-bishops, Bishops, &c. this Lyturgie and Service-book, and though they now practise not many things they did before, but forbare, yet some things are forborne as being matter of offence among the people, and other things as having been an occasion of much hurt in the Church, and now there being so open a dore for a full Reformation p. 271they doe labour after the best, and follow what they judge most for edification now, not condemning all their former practises (especially considering those times) unlawfull and sinfull.