Full Answer to Apologetical Narration, Text (6 of 8)

Full Answer to Apologetical Narration · Text (6 of 8)

p. 196We found also (which was as great an affliction to us as our former Apolog.troubles and banishment) our opinions and wayes (wherein we might seeme to differ) environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions, and our persons with reproaches; Besides other calumnies as of schisme, &c. (which yet must either relate to a differi…g from the former Ecclesiasticall government of this Church established, and then who is not involved in it as well as we, or to that constitution and government that is yet to come; and untill that be agreed on, established and declared, and actually exist, there can be no guilt or imputation of schisme from it,) That proud and insolent title of independencie was affixed unto us, as our claime; the very sound of which conveyes to all mens apprehensions the challenge of an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependence, or rather a trumpet of defiance against what ever power, spirituall or civill, which we doe abhorre and detest, or else the odious name of Brownisme together with all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them, must needs be owned by us: Although upon the very first declaring our judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline, and likewise since it hath been acknowledged that we differ much from them. And we did then, and doe here publikely professe, we beleeve the truth to lye and consist in a midle way betwixt that which is falsely charged on us, Brownisme; and that which is the contention of these times, the Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it.

I desire you to resolve me, and the Reader, how the first sentence in this Section, Your opinions and wayes environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions and your persons with reproaches can stand with those words in the 24 page: We found many of those mists that had gathered about us, or were rather cast upon our persons in our absence, begun by our presence againe, and the blessing of God upon us, in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves and cause. And now if upon your presence only and that without speaking a word they vanished and were scattered, how did they then vanish upon speaking for your selves and way, and then how could p. 197this cloud of mistakes, &c. so easily blowne away by your breath, nay without your breath be so great an affliction to you, (certainely you are men very tender of any mistake, misapprehension or reproach upon you,) but I thinke it may be salved by your comparison as great to us as our former troubles and banishment; both much alike great, that is, neither of them: But what meane you by that parenthesis (wherein we might seeme to differ) did but your opinions seeme to differ from ours, and doe they not really? why then have you, and doe you make all this adoe in our Church? as for your opinions and wayes environed with mistakes and misapprehensions, I know nothing for my part hath been fasten'd upon your wayes, but what hath been found in letters, manuscripts, your known practises, and in printed books of New-England, and in the discourses of your own members and familiars: But if some men who have not studied the points, nor given themselves to understand your way, did mistake and misapprehend you, that was your own fault, that walking so in the darke, and having been so often desired to give a Narrative of what you hold in difference, never yet would; As for the calumnies east upon you of Schismes, Independencie and Brownisme, with the reasons inserted to vindicate your selves from them. I shall first give a generall answer to them together, and then to each of them apart.

1. In generall, how ever you doe in words wash your hands of these imputations, and wipe your mouthes, confidently denying them, yet all the water in the Thames will not wash you from all just imputation of these: It is no new thing for men who goe in bye wayes and maintaine errors whether more fundamentall, or superstructory, to abominate the names and titles given to those opinions, whether from the Authors who first broacht them, or from the matter of them, and to deny the opinions and points charged upon them, by finding out some distinctions, or doubtfull words and expressions to cloud them with, in which sense they wrap up themselves, and deceive many, and so give other names: I might fill up a book in giving Instances out of antient and moderne writers of this Artifice: Those who are commonly called Saracens, their name is Haggarens, (as comming of Hagak) but they would not be so called, but name themselves Saracens, p. 198sons of the free-woman: The Schwenefeldians, cal'd by Luther, Philip Melancton and other famous Divines, Stenckfeldians, from Catal Haeretic. Schlusselb. lib. decimus de Sect a Stenck …elp.the ill savour of their opinions, yet Schuvenckfeldius entituled them with that glorious name, the confessors of the glory of Christ. The Antinomians will not endure to be called by that name, but stile themselves the Hearers of the Gospell, and of Free-grace; the old Separatists could not endure to be called Brownists, or Barrowists, (as appeares by the title of M^r Robinsons Apologie,) so, you will not endure the titles of Schisme, Separation, Independencie, but you call it the Congregationall government, and the Church way, and an entire, full, compleate power, but by no meanes Independent government, that will not be indured; As no sin will be called willingly by its own name, but takes other names; drunkennesse will be cal'd good fellowship, covetousnesse good husbandry and providence; so few errors will be called after the name of the first father, or the matter simply they hold; and I could give you many reasons of this, amongst others take these: 1. Many are possessed by books and arguments against such and such errours under such names and titles; now that erroneous men may avoid all the dint of the arguments and the impressions such names and termes have left upon many, they disclaime the ould and invent new words and phrases against which the people have not been possest, the better to take them. 2. Erroneous spirits would have nothing fixt or certaine to be fastned on them, upon which able men might bring arguments and reasons against them: But the reader shall see all this will not help you, but that the just charge of these must lye upon you. 2. To answer particularly, You are justly charged of Schisme and Separation, and if you consult with the Scriptures and Authors both antient and moderne: Austin, Calvin, Zanchius, Morneus, Peter Martyr, Iunius, Perkins, Parker, and see what they write of schisme and separation, you will be found guilty of it, and as for the argument brought by you by which you would cleare your selves from schisme, that it must either relate to your differing from the former Ecclesiasticall government of Bishops, or to that constitution and government that is yet to come, &c. I answer, though it relate to neither of them, yet it may arise from other causes, your disjunctive proposition p. 199doth not containe a full enumeration of all the causes, or reasons of schisme, for the non-conformists did of old differ from that former Ecclesiasticall government, and yet were never justly accused of separation and schisme, but writ most vehemently against it, neither is schisme to be judged of upon some difference in judgement which may be from that constitution and government, that is yet to come, for though some men should differ from it, as not holding it the best government, yet so long as they separate not from the publike worship and ordinances, neither doe draw people into separated Assemblies, they cannot be charged with separation; The ground therefore of schisme imputed to you, comes as from your forsaking our publike Assemblies, and separating from Gods ordinances and his servants, because of mixt communion, and setting up of Churches against our Church, and going on still in that way, notwithstanding all the Reformation begun, and that which is likely to be perfected; so also from not joyning your selves with the other reformed Churches. But if you say, that you cannot be counted guilty of schisme and separation, because you doe not withdraw from us with condemnation of us, as no true Churches, nor true Ministers, (as the Brownists doe.) I answer, you doe the same thing they doe, though upon different grounds; Now suppose a woman should withdraw from her husband, and joyne to another ordinarily, yet not with condemnation of him as no husband, but would now and then keep communion with him; suppose a servant forsake his Master, and joyne to another, yet comes away without rayling against him, doth this justifie him? But why make you such a businesse of it (as you doe) to forsake the communion of all our Churches, and of all the reformed Churches, and of joyning to Churches only of such a constitution, if you condemned them not? what though you doe not leave them as Antichristian, Babilonish, as false and untrue, yet if you leave such Churches, because impure, defective, under bondage, not of so good a constitution? in this you condemne them, and so are guilty of schisme: I aske of you, if the members of some of your Churches should upon grounds, not because you are false Churches, and false Ministers, but because you are not to pure as some others, nor as they could set up a Church? (as for instance, p. 200because wicked men are admitted to prayer amongst you, or because the ordinance of Hymnes is not yet setled in all your Churches, &c.) forsake and leave your Assemblies, and yet should openly professe they doe not condemne your Churches as no Churches, but only joyne to Churches of a purer constitution, or set up a new Church (as M^r Simpson did) whether is this a schisme and separation? doe you not hold this unlawfull, (especially this being without your consents, nay against them (as not being satisfied in the reasons and causes of such a departure.) Now if it be schisme and separation in some of your members, pray free your selves, and in your Reply wash your Churches from this offence, in withdrawing from ours, and answer that axiome, that magis & minus non variant speciem, and what ever you can say for your departing from us to enjoy further degrees of purity, or because our Churches are defective in some ordinances, &c. that your members may for themselves, (for according to your own confession in Apologie, page 30. you differ little from us and the reformed Church, yea farre lesse then the Anabaptists or some sort of Brownists doe from you: Now then I put this Dilemma to you, whether is it schisme in your members or not? if it be schisme in them, and they may not leave your Churches, then it is schisme in you, and you may not forsake ours; but if it be no schisme in them, but they may doe so, members may still goe from one pure Church to a purer (according to their new light,) then satisfie me where you will stay, and make a stand? and what is schisme and separation? and whether a great gap and wide dore be not left open for schisme upon schisme, and separation upon separation, from your Churches to the Brownists, and from the Brownists to the Anabaptists, and so in infinitum? And let me tell you, though you who are Schollers have found out these distinctions about our Churches and Ministers, whereby you think you salve all, and so make account you are not guilty of schisme, (as the learned Papists having distinctions about Images, Worship, &c. say, they worship not the Images, but the persons in the Images, &c.) (though the people who doe not so well understand nor cannot always remember such distinctions) worship the very Images, and that with the same worship as they doe God,) so the p. 201people who by your counsell and example, had forsaken our Churches, they leave our Churches and Ministers as not true, they condemne our Churches and Ministers, and wonder at those passages in your Apologie, page 6. and say they took you otherwise, and so they become guilty of schisme and separation without such distinctions, (though you with distinctions.)

For that title of Independencie affixed unto you as your claime, it is well you call it a proud and insolent title, had I stiled it so in my Reasons against Independent governement, it would have been counted by your side a reviling of the way of God, and a casting great reproach upon Christs government; but I shall give you and the reader a good account for that title affixed unto the Church-way and communion that you are of, (and if it be offensive you must blame your selves, and your own party, and not me:) This Independencie and Independent government, was a name of your own giving, and sure, I, and others might lawfully call the child by the name the father and friends gave it; To speak nothing of the name of Independent government given to particular Congregations in many books of the totall Separatists maintaining it formally in those words, it will be found in many printed books and manuscripts written by many men of your way and communion, (namely of the middle way as you call it) who owne and call the government of particular Congregations Independant, and reason for it under that name. Amongst others you shall find it in these books, Protestation Protested, M^r Davenports Profession of his Faith, Sions Prerogative royall, **Independēce of particular Congregations pleaded for, pag. 100, 101, 102, 103A Discourse opening the nature of Episcopacie, The Answer from New-England to M^r Herles book against Independencie, in aaEvery particular Congregation is an absolute Church, having no jurisdiction over it but Christs alone, and that immediately, page 52, 59.Christ upon his Throne; and in manuscripts not a few, particularly in a manuscript intituled, a Treatise about a Church, (going under one of your names) speakes often of Independent power and Independent government. Besides Independent government hath been preached for at Margrets Church in Westminster, and the City of London in those words, so that I wonder how you dare make such a flourish; for my part I should never have invented the name, neither would it have ever entred into my mind, but that it was common in the books, manuscripts and mouthes of men of p. 202your way: And this hath been taken so for granted, that not I alone (who might more easily have mistaken) writ against the government of your Congregations under that name, but the learned and reverend Divines of Scotland writ against it under that name, (using those tearms and phrases often) and the learned Divines of Holland, (particularly Voctius) aaMr. Herle The Independency on Scriptures, of the Independencie of Churches. ^hRise, growth and danger of Socinianisme, page 65, 66.and a learned and ingenious Divine of our own too, writ against your government under the title of Independencie, (whose book containes many passages particularly referring to you the Apologists:) And so ^• M^r Channell who candidly testifies for you, (even when he would free you from being called Brownists) yet saith you be commonly cal'd the Independent Ministers, and doth by way of distinction from the reformed Churches, call your Congregations Independent. But yet further to fasten on you (as you are pleased to stile it, that proud and insolent title of Independencie) however that you disclaime the title here and in other pages 14, 21, yet you acknowledge the thing abundantly in the book, namely a full and entire power, compleat within your selves, untill you be challenged to erre grossely, and then when you are challenged to erre grossely, and upon examination and deposition it is fully proved, yet you will not subject to any Authoritative, Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation, this is the only thing in your Apology largely, and with any seeming strength insisted upon, and for the exemption from that, you have found out the device of submission and non-communion, and tell us your solemne practise upon it, with the successe of it: Now what else hath been fastned on you as your claime by them who have writ against your way, but this, did any of the Divines commended by you? or did I in my reasons against your governement, write in any other sense but in the point of Ecclesiasticall government and power? did we lay to your charge in our writing against Independencie, that you challenged an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependance, or rather, that you should blow a trumpet of desiance against what ever power, spirituall or civill? did I, or any others charge you with refusing all subjection to the civill Magistrate? And for that other dependance of consultation and non-communion upon other Churches, the power you give p. 203in that kind to Synods, &c. I acknowledged it in my eight reason, Reasons against Independent government, pag. 19.and argued from thence to the power of excommunication; why then doe you deale thus deceitfully and doubly, pretending to abhorre and detest Independencie as it was objected and pleaded against you, when as besides the very words and phrases found in so many printed books and notes, you hold all that in the question, which is the difference betwixt you and the Presbyterians, as also in some of your books, Independent and entire power are termini convertibiles, (as in the title of Sions Prerogative Royall) (which entire, full, compleate power, in terminis, and in so many sillables you owne more then once in this Apologie,) so that all your great words of abhorring and detesting the exemption of your Churches from all power spirituall, or civill, will not save you from Independencie justly affixed unto you: As for civill power, it is not the question in controversie, neither was it affixt unto you, and for spirituall power properly cal'd you deny it all along, in many pages speaking against authoritative power often, page 15, 18, 19. And to put you this Dilemma, either you give authoritative power to other Churches, or you doe not, if you doe give it, why doe you speake so against it in your Apologie, but if you doe not give it, why would you make your Reader beleeve you doe give spirituall power, and are not against it, is not this doubling and shuffling, and troubling the waters that the Reader cannot tell where to find you, nor what you hold, (too great an evidence of a weake and bad cause, becomming not such men as you would be taken for) truth is open and naked, and doth not seeke out holes and subterfugies. But brethren doe not deceive your selves, nor your Reader any longer, if you be not against spirituall power properly so called of any Classes or Synods in reference to particular Congregations, what meane you by all you say from page 12, to the end of the 19? and of all that controversie and Tragedies made by you against the reformed Churches, for giving a power to Classes and Synods; and let me intreate you, (that the controversie may be brought to some end between you and us) in your Reply set down particularly what you will allow to Classes Synods, generall Assemblies and Councels, in matter of government? and whether that you will allow and give Authority p. 204and power yea or no, and what you will not give nor allow them, and then state the question so, and I doe promise you in my Rejoynder to apply my selfe to give you satisfaction (as if you except Excommunication, Ordination, or what else) to show you the grounds for them, and if we love truth and peace, either you shall win me, or I you.

3. For the odious name of Brownisme, together with all their opinions, as they have stated and maintained them, must needs be owned by us. I answer, Brownisme (as you in these words expresse it) hath not been fastned on you by any that I know, but on the contrary, you have been commonly contra-distinguish'd from them, being called Independents, Semi-separatists; and in my reasons against Independent government, I doe in many passages difference you from them; and for all their opinions, as they have stated and maintained them, namely drawing such consequences, and conclusions, and going so farre as they, I have often vindicated you, but yet, for all that you cannot justly free your selves from the odious name of Brownisme in most of the fundamentall principles and practises of your Churches, no not with all your Artifices and specious pretences: As the Brownists growing up, and out of the Anabaptists, did refine and qualifie Anabaptisine in many things, in government, prophecying, &c. So have you refined and qualified Brownisme from the grossenesse and rigidnesse of it, as it was held by the first Fathers and Authours of it; (as I could show in many particulars) you doe not goe so farre as they, neither are you against some practises of other Churches upon those high termes; but yet for substance, from the first stone to the last, in departing from our Assemblies and constituting new, you agree with them (as by a **A briefe Narration of some Church courses held in opinion and practise in New-England, by W. R.paralell betweene the way of your Communion and the Separatists lately printed doth appeare:) And in a word it is evident thus: You agree with the way of New-England (as is confest by some of yourselves) and we may judge so by your high praise of them. Now the Churches of New-England agree with them of M. Robinsons Church, who are moderate and qualified Brownists: Now that the Church-way of New-England is the same with them of M. Robinsons Church is proved thus: The Church at p. 205New-Plymouth was the first companie that planted in those parts, who comming from Leiden where they were members of M. Robinsons Church a moderate Brownist in his latter time, practised the Church-opinions and wayes they formerly, had in Holland, and when they of New-England went over first (through their conversing with them and nearenesse of scituation) they tooke up and learned their way, (as appeares by these particulars.)

First, M. W. an eminent man of the Church of New-Plymouth, told W. R. that the rest of the Churches of New-England at first came to them of Plymouth to crave their direction in Churchcourses and made them their patterne.

Secondly, M. Cotton in a letter to M. Skelton one of the first Ministers that went over thither, writes thus to him, in way of M. Cottons letter from out of England to M. Skelton in New-England.answer to this Position, that M. Skelton held: That our Congregations in England are none of them particular Reformed Churches, but M. Lathrops and such as his. This errour requires rather a Booke then a letter to answer it, you went hence of another judgement, and I am afraid your change hath sprung from New-Plymouth men, whom though I much esteeme as godly, loving Christians, yet their grounds which for this Tenet they received from M. Robinson, doe not satisfie me.

Thirdly, There is great commendations given to the Church of Plymouth by M. Cotton after comming to New-England, in his letter to M. Williams, pag. 13.

Fourthly, All the Ministers and Elders of New-England doe affirme, that all the Churches in New-England, viz. in the Bay, in the jurisdiction of Plymouth and at Connet…acute, are one and the same way in Church constitution, government and discipline without any materiall difference. Now what can be said more plaine? Adde to all these, that I had it from the mouth of a godly Ans. to 32 questions. p. 82.Minister of the City, conferring with one of your precious Ministers about these points, before he went into Holland, and telling him, This is Brownisme and Browne held thus; what are you a Brownist? Your companion and fellow-labourer answered him thus: The way was of God, but the man was nought, namely Browne. As for those words whereby you would evade the p. 206naine of Brownisme, That upon the very first declaring your judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline; and likewise since, it hath been acknowledged, you differ much from them: 'Tis not your saying so will cleare you, unlesse you had named what that chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-discipline is, and how, and in what words you declared your judgements; and to whom: for you might so expresse your selves (as you doe in this Apologie too often) whereby you might deceive the most of them to whom you declared your judgements: yea many able Ministers and Scholars (who are not versed in your distinctions and reservations) and yet for all the declaring of your judgements, differ very little from the Brownists, except in different phrases, and in not deducing such consequences. Let me intreate you therefore to lie no longer hid under such generals, but in your Reply, declare particularly what you hold the chiefe point of all Church-discipline, and wherein in that you differ from them: But may I guesse at the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-government and discipline, wherein you declared your judgements, by which you would distinguish your selves from the Brownists: Is it not, that you give the power and authoritie to the officers, and not to the people onelyonly? I have heard that of late you have declared your selves thus, and the late Epistle before M. Cottons booke written by two of you implies so much? But be it so (though I can out of a letter of M. Bridges, and from notes and manuscripts show, that seven yeares agoe the expressions of some of you were otherwise) yet this will not free yo…, for M. Iohnson fell to this, and yet was guiltie of Brownisme for all that. But in this also your principles and your practises are incoherent, and however in fine words, and flattering similitudes, you dilate upon it in your Epistle to M. Cottons late booke, yet it comes much to one, the substance of which Epistle I will answer in my Rejoynder to your Reply, or in some thing by it selfe, and will wipe off the paint and guilt, and then the naked counter and rotten post will appeare. As for your publick profession, that you beleeve the truth to lie and consist in a middle way betwixt Brownisme, and that which is the contention of these times, the Authoritative Presbyteriall p. 207Government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it. I answer, then Actum est de Presbyterio, & de Synodo. You have determined the cause alreadie, the Assembly may rise when they please, and need sit no longer, for the truth lies and consists in Independencie, but I suppose, though heretofore, and when you wrote this Apologie, you did so publickly prefesso, and beleeve the truth to lie in your way (the middle way as you terme it) yet by what hath past since, your height and courage is somewhat abated, and you are not now so peremptory, and I find now, you write in another stile (which becomes you much better) We humbly suppose, we humbly conceive, again in all humilitie: But if you be high still, I must tell you your confidence hath deceived you, and your middle way (as you fancie it) (though I Keyes of the kingdome of Heaven. Epist. to the Reader.must still charge upon you refined Brownisme) will prove like other pretended truthes lying in middle wayes, just as the Catholicke and Arminian moderatours, Cassander, the booke called **Schlusselb. de Adiapho. lib. 13Interim, and that booke of late times cal'd media via, betweene the Papists and Protestants, and betweene the Calvinists and Arminians: And as for the way of your expression of Presbyteriall government, I cannot but except at it, observing that all along obliquely, and as farre as you may, you still asperse that. You can here expresse Brownisme simply, without any additions to it, but you cannot passe by Presbyteriall government without a lash at it, which is the contention of these times, as if you would insinuate the blame of all the contentions and stirre of these times to be Presbyteriall Government, whereas the truth is, the contention of these times is Episcopall, and your Independent Government, which have caused, and doe continue all the contention and stirres in Church and Common-wealth, they mutually strengthning each other against Presbyteriall government; and …o 'tis still to be observed, that all along in this Apologie, where you speake of Presbyteriall Government; you state the questions about that, in the highest and utmost latitude, but of your owne Church and way in the lowest, yea lower then you hold (as for instance in 11, 12. pag. about the qualification of Church-members) to deceive the Reader with your pretended moderation, and the more to possesse the Reader against the jus divinum of the Presbyteriall p. 208way, as for example in this place, Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it: Now the substance and summe of Presbyteriall governement may be according to Apostolicall Primitive patternes, and yet all the subordinations and proceedings of it, as it is practised in the Church of Scotland, fitted to that Nation and Kingdome, may have no Scripture examples: Presbyteriall government in some Reformed Churches, as at Geneva, hath not all the subordinations and proceedings as Scotland, being no Kingdome nor Nation; and Presbyteriall government in England, might have one subordination more then Scotland, and some different proceedings in the manner and forme of carrying matters according to particular circumstances and occasions of time and place. The Ministers of the Church of Scotland, who hold their Church Government to be laid downe in the word of God for the substance and essentials of it, doe not (as I suppose) hold that all the subordinations and proceedings, as practised in their kingdome, have a particular rule, either of precept or example: I doubt not but they well understand, no whole Nation was converted to the faith in the time that the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles were written; nor the supreame Magistrate in any Kingdome or Nation; and therefore in no one Church or Nation where Christians were converted, and Churches planted, there could not be that formall combination into Classes, setled Synods or generall Assemblies; neither could the supreame Magistrate, or a Commissioner for him be a prime member in their chiefe Assemblies; and so I might instance in other particulars; but the Church of Scotland find Presbyteriall Government in subordinations and appeales; that is Government exercised in Churches and Assemblies which consisted of more members then could meet in one place, and they find Assemblies, where upon cases of difference there were more members and officers then of one Church (as the Acts of the Apostles showes fully) and this serves for Scripture grounds to them: Now then for the manner of ordering of this, according to different Kingdomes, Nations or Cities, in fewer or more subordinations; and in the way and manner of proceedings by severall p. 209Churches, according to locall, temporall and personall circumstances, they know well they must goe according to generall rules of the word, to the common lawes of nature and prudence, and so they leave other Churches to doe the like.

And had we been led in our former wayes, and our removall Apolog.out of this Kingdome by any such spirit of faction and division, or of pride and singularity (which are the usuall grounds of all schisme) we had since our returnes againe, during this intermisticall season, tentations, yea provocations enough to have drawne forth such a spirit; having manifold advantages to make and increase a partie, which we have not in the least attempted. We found the spirits of the people of this Kingdome that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse (they finding themselves to be so much at libertie, and new come out of bondage) readie to take any impressions, and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way. And we found that many of those mists that had gathered about us, or were rather cast upon our persons in our absence, began by our presence againe, and the blessing of God upon us, in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves or cause.

Whether all of you, or only some of you, were led in your former wayes, and in your removall out of this Kingdome, by any such spirit of faction, &c. I will not enter into your bosomes, nor judge of secret things, I leave you to search your selves, and to give account of your spirits to the Father of spirits; and whether you were led in your former wayes, and in your removall out of the Kingdome by any such spirit, or no, 'tis too evident by what I have fore-mentioned, that a spirit of faction and division, or of pride and singularity, wrought too much amongst some of you abroad: But though no such spirit led you, there are to me and many others, sufficient visible grounds of your removall out of this Kingdome after you once were off your setled places, as your feare of personall violence, your selfe-love and worldly wisdome to provide for your selves and yours (what ever became of the publicke) your horrible dispaire of comming in againe here, or things ever turning in this Land (as you twice expresse it) your great and excessive admiration of the persons of some who were p. 210in the Church-way (accounting there were no such men in the world as they) your discontent and anger at the course and harsh usage in casting some of you out of your places (which often times are grounds of heresies and schismes) as I could shew out of Ecclesiasticall histories in Tertullian, &c. And besides these grounds, if I may judge of your being led in your former wayes, and of your removall out of the Kingdome (as your selves make the argument) by your spirit being drawne forth since your returne in making and encreasing a partie, if that will evince your being led formerly by a spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularitie, I know not how you will free your selves, for since your returnes againe during this intermysticall season, you have not been idle, nor lost time, but have laid hold on the temptations, provocations and the manifold advantages to make and increase a partie, nay you have not only laid hold on what you found readie to your hands, namely, the intermysticall season (through so many great businesses comming in upon the Parliament one upon another) & the spirits of the people of the kingdom that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse, finding themselves to be so much at libertie and new come out of bondage readie to take any impressions, &c. but you have made and encreased new for the making of a partie. And I much wonder how you dare speake thus, much lesse publiquely in print to publish, that you have not in the least attempted to make and encrease a partie; the contrarie whereunto is written in such great letters; that he who runnes may reade it, and I shall presently make evident in answering this passage, with others of the like nature in the 25. and 26. pages. For the spirits of the people of this Kingdome, that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse, and especially of the Citie and the adjacent parts, you give a true character, together with the ground of it, finding themselves to be so much at liberty, and new come out of bonduge; and it is amongst all the passages in your booke one of the best; and if the people would well mind, and consider of it, that they are readie to take any impressions, and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way; This might doe them as much good, as all the Sermons you have preacht among them since your returnes, p. 211and might prove an antidote both against the golden sweet poyson in this booke, and the principles of your Church-way: But thus we see (by your owne confession) how easily and readily errours are entertained by the good people of this Kingdome, when as truth may stand without doores and knocke long before opened unto, even as good Phisitians and good right phisicke hath a great deale a doe to find acceptance and admittance among the common-people, when Mountabancks and Empricks are sought unto. As to those words the finding that many of those mists that had gathered about you, or were rather cast upon your persons in your absence, began by your presence againe in a great measure to scatter and vanish, without speaking a word for your selves and cause. I answer, O happie rare men, powerfull and gracious with the people, whose very presence without speaking a word for themselves or cause, could doe thus much after a long absence, what will not your speaking and writing for your selves then doe? 'Tis well for you, the most eminent servants of God in all ages have not found mists that had gathered about them, or cast upon their persons to scatter and vanish away so easily, but after all Apologies and Defence for themselves and cause have found them to sticke close; and we find it harder to wipe off the aspersions and mistakes cast on us from your side (though for nothing else but for discharging our consciences, and labouring to keepe good people from errours:) But Brethren if it were so with you (as here you write.) what need had you then to write this Apologie to cleare your selves from mistakes (especially having been now so long present in the Kingdome, and resident in the chiefe Citie, having the libertie of the Pulpits, and being members of the Assemblie) would not the sudden confused noise of exclamations restecting upon you interpretatively, without the writing of this Apologie have been suddenly blowne over and presently have died by the continued presence of your persons, and by your preaching, &c. as the many mists that had gathered about you in your absence, by your bare presence, without sp…aking a word were scattered? It is much, your former experience did not teach you to expect the latter, and to have reasoned from that to this, so as to have caused you to have forborne p. 212making such an Apologie at such a time (as this) upon such an occasion, as a sudden unexpected noise of confused exclamations. But how ever you hold out this in the beginning of your Apologie, as the ground of it, yet something else moved you to that work, and you have learned like the lap-wing to cry furthest off the nest.

But through the grace of Christ, our spirits are and have been so remote from such dispositions and aimes, that on the contrary Apolog.we call God and men to witnesse our constant forbearance either to publish our opinions by preaching (although we had the Pulpits free) or to print any thing of our owne or others for the vindication of our selves (although the presses were more free then the Pulpits) or to act for our selves or way; although we have been from the first provoked unto all these all sorts of wayes, both by the common mis-understandings and mis-representations of our opinions and practises, together with encitements to this state not to allow us the peaceable practises of our consciences, which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed us, and these edged with calumnies and reproaches cast upon our persons in print; and all these heightned with this further prejudice and provocation, that this our silence was interpreted, that we were either ashamed of our opinions, ex able to say little for them; when as on the other side (besides all other advantages) Bookes have bin written by men of much worth, learning and authoritie, with moderation and strength, to pre-possesse the peoples minds against what are supposed our Tenets. But we knew and considered that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell, and that the beginning of strife would have been as the breaking in of waters, and the sad and conscientious apprehension of the danger of rending and dividing the godly Protestant party in this Kingdome that were desirous of Reformation, and of making severall interests among them in a time when there was an absolute necessitie of their nearest union and conjunction, and all little enough to effect that Reformation intended, and so long contended for; against a common adversarie that had both present possession to pleade for it selfe, power to support it, and had enjoyed a long continued settlement which had rooted it in the hearts of men; And this seconded by the instant and continuall advices and conjurements p. 213of many honourable, wise and godly personages of both Houses of Parliament, to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference; They having also by their Declarations to his Majesty professed their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdom, that agree in fundamentall truths against Popery and other heresies, and to have that respect… to tender consciences as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences, which had formerly been; Together with that strict engagement willingly entred into by us for these common ends, with the rest of our brethren of the Ministery, (which though made to continue but ad placitum, yet hath bin sacred to us.) And above all, the due respect we have had to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State; the hopefull expectation we have been entertained with of an happy latitude and agreement by meanes of this Assembly, and the wisedome of this Parliament: The conscience and consideration of all these, and the weight of each, have hitherto had more power with us to this deep silence and forbearance, then all our own interest… have any way prevailed with us to occasion the least disturbance amongst the poople. We have and are yet resolved to beare all this with a quiet and strong patience; (in the strength of which we now speake, or rather sigh forth this little) referring the vindication of our persons to God, and a further experience of us by men; and the declaration of our judgements, and what we conceive to be his truth therein, to the due and orderly agitation of this Assembly, wherof both Houses were pleased to make us members.

In this Section are three maine things; 1. Your way and carriage of your selves since your returne into England, as not in the least attempting to make and encrease a party, but on the contrary, constantly forbearing either by preaching, &c. to doe any thing for you selves and way. 2. The provocations you have had from the first, all sorts of wayes to have done otherwise, whereby you the more set out and commend your patience and forbearance. 3. The grounds and reasons laid downe of your deep silence and forbearance: now all, and every one of these I will examine, and give the Reader and your selves this account following:

p. 214For the first of these three, and your expressions in it, above all other passages in your Narration, I cannot but admire and wonder what you meant by them, and where your consciences, memories and wisedomes were when you writ them? many passages in other Sections of this Apologie are strange for their doubtfull double meaning, and for their untruth, but some passages in this Section were beyond my imagination of you, not only thus publikely to write manifest untruths, and to subscribe to them with your own hands, but to father them on the grace of Christ, and to invocate the Name of God to make him owne them, calling God to witnesse, yea, and men too, to witnesse such untruths, (when as God and men know the contrary to what you here assert,) I marvaile, none of you, (one at least) had not relented, and startled at these passages in the first part of this Section, But through the grace of Christ, our spirits are, and have been so remote from such dispositions and aymes, that on the contrary we call God and men to witnesse our constant forbearance either to publish our opinions by preaching, &c. Now the first part of this Section, instead of what you write here, may be thus truly written (and I shall presently make it good:) We since our returnes into the Kingdome, having had manifold advantages to make and increase a party, have made use of them, and in a great measure attempted it, for through the want of the grace of Christ, our spirits have had such dispositions and aimes, that God and men can witnesse, our dealing ☞and trading for our opinions and way, both by preaching, and some of us by printing; and many other wayes acting for our selves and way; so that the conscience and consideration of all the reasons, as the sad apprehension of the danger of rending and dividing the godly Protestant party in this Kingdome, &c. …or the weight of each, have not had power with us to a deep silence and forbearance, but our own interests have much provailed with us to occasion much disturbance among the people. Brethren what is this you write in this Section? how can you write it? Have not some of you, nor any of you, no not in the least attempted to make a party? What have your spirits been so remote from such dispositions and aimes, that on the contrary you call God and …on to witnesse your constant forbearance either to publish your opinions by preaching, p. 215o… to print any thing of your own or others, for the vindication of your selves, or to all for your selves or way? What have you kept a deep silence and forbearance? What have not all your own interests prevailed with you, to occasion the least disturbance amongst the people? As for God, who is called to witnesse by you, without great repentance for these words, he will be a swift witnesse against you; Mal. 3. 5. And as for men, whom you call also to witnesse, I being one, and therefore being called out by your selves to witnesse, I must speake being called unto it; and I entreate you blame not me for witnessing and speaking the truth, declaring what I know of your preaching, &c, but thanke your selves who have called me to it: And being thus called, I should sin against God, and the truth, If I should not speake the truth, and the whole truth, (so farre as I know and have been from good hands informed;) and yet I will speake nothing but what I beleeve to be truth: I doe therefore contrary (to what you call God and men to witnesse unto) charge you with these following particulars.

First, All of you have not constantly forborne to publish your opinions by preaching, but you have vented your principles and opinions, by preaching, sometimes more generally and covertly, (yet so as your followers understand you,) and sometimes particularly and plainly: In a more generall and covert way, you have done it often, under preaching for purity of Ordinances, the standing for the Kingly office of Christ, the being in a Church-way, the performing of all ordinances in the due and right order, &c. wherein you doe for your way just as the Malignant Ministers preach against the Parliament and for the Cavaliers, under generalities, by preaching against Rebellion, and fighting against the King, and rising up against him, and for peace, &c. (which the Malignants understand well enough, and flock to them upon it;) And so more particularly, fully and plainly, you have preached for your way, for instance, M^r Simpson, (one of the Apologists,) hath frequently, and did constantly (for one space) in many Lectures at Black-friers, (more especially on that Text, Psal. 119. 6. Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy Commandements:) preach for his opinions and way, and did answer many objectious against their Church-way, pleading strongly p. 216for it; and for pretended liberty of conscience and toleration: So on Fishstreet-hill, on that Text of Rom. 12. 2. That ye may prove what is that good, that acceptable and perfect will of God: he preached largely for his Church-way, and propounded and resolved nine Questions about it: And at **Mr. Simpsons Sermon on Pro. 8. 15, 16. pag. 26, 27, 28, 29, 32, 33. Sermon cal'd Reformations Preservation, pag. 25, 26, 27.Prov 8:15Prov 8:16Westminster also, in Sermons preached there, he had many passages for the Church-way, as for Toleration, as for the matter of their Church, visible Saints, &c. M^r Burroughs another of the Apologists, hath published his opinions by preaching, and hath preached for his way, at Mildreds-Breadstreet, on that Text, Gal. 5. 1. preaching against Nationall Churches under the new Testament, and for the way of their particular Churches. M^r Burroughs, before the Lord Major and Aldermen in his publike Sermon at Easter, preached for toleration of all Sects and opinions, (so they were not against fundamentals in doctrine, and the fundamentals of civill government:) and he hath frequently in his Lectures at Michael Cornhill, (some of which are since printed) preached for their way; besides what he may have preached at Stepny and elsewhere, (of which I have not yet sufficiently informed my selfe as to be able to prove it.) M^r Bridge, another of these Apologists, in a Sermon at Westminster in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting, before many Parliament men, had up that Mat. 18. Goe tell the Church; but Christ does not send them from that Church to another Church, &c. So in his Sermon before the Honorable House of Commons, Fast Sermon, pag. 20, 21, 24. 25, 26, 28, 31.(preached about a monethmonth before this Apologie came forth) there are severall passages for the Church-way. And in his Sermon called Babylons downfall, preached before sundry of the House of Commons, there are passages for the Church-way, page 13, 15. In London also at the Bridge-foote, he hath preached severall things tending that way; particularly, about the people, being Gods porters to let the Ministers into the Church, and how no men come in truly called but they. In the Countrey too, he hath preached for his way (as I have been enformed by a good hand,) both at Norwich, and at Ipswich: But if it be asked what he hath done at Yarmouth, I shall in my Rejoynder give you a full account of him there, (being not yet so well prepared for that.) M^r Goodwin, another of the Apologists, hath preached and published p. 217his opinions (on that Text, Ephes. 1. 22, 23.) at large, for no other visible Ministeriall Church, but a particular Congregation, with his reasons for it; (though that Text speakes of the Church, in statu mistico, and not of an instituted particular Church:) and so at Westminster, in his first Sermon, preached before many of the House of Commons, he had passages of Christs Kingly office, and the government of the Church, clearely for this way, and against the Presbyterians. So in his Sermon preached before the House of Commons, cal'd Zer…bbabels Encouragement, there are many things for the Church-way, pag. 18. and from page 29. to page 44. (which though they be but generals) yet in the Epistle before the sermon it is confessed they be for that way. As for M^r Nye, he having lived a great part of his time since his returne into England in Noblemens families, and in Yorkeshire, and having preached little in the Parishes here in London, I cannot proove that he hath published his opinions by preaching particularly for them: But whether M^r Nye hath not acted the State-parasite and played the polititian the more, and dealing in private, under hand, and hand to hand with some men of note for the Church-way, and against the government of the Church of Scotland, and particularly at Hull, (as I have some ground for what I write,) so I appeale to his conscience, and intreate him to rub up his memory whom he hath conferred with about these points: but though I cannot prove M^r Nye hath published his opinions by preaching, yet M^r Nye affirming this not only for himselfe, but for all the rest, speaking not only in his own name, but in the name of the other Apologists too, we call God and men to witnesse our constant forbearance either to publish our opinions by preaching, &c. whether according to that second question in page 14, of this Antapologie, is not he guilty also, and may here be justly charged with writing of an untruth. But let me aske you, though you say you have not published your opinions by preaching, doe you not understand it by preaching in pulpits? (for I find it in the parenthesis referred to pulpits) but whether all of you, or some of you have not published your opinions by preaching out of pulpits, at Tables, and in chambers in your Church meetings, and in houses where some of you have exercised before supper, when friends and p. 218company have been invited, (which is an acting for your selves and way,) I referre to your consciences to consider of: only I must tell you, that I have it from a sure hand, of no worse ranke of men, then of the Ministery, and of no flighter sort of witnesse then an care witnesse, that things about the Church-way, have been often so preached in houses; and in particular, I aske M^r Bridge, whether it be not so? but if it be answer'd by you, (for the avoiding this imputation fastned on you) of calling God and men to witnesse an untruth, that your words doe not import a totall forbearance of preaching your opinions, neither doe you meane, that you never preached them; but a constant forbearance, that is, you did for the greater part forbeare in the constant course of your Ministery to preach of these points: I reply, your words cannot bare that sense, neither doth, nor can such a meaning agree with your words going before and following after, nor with the scope and intent of this Section: For the words which goe before, of our spirits remote from such dispositions and aimes, are in reference to these words in the former Section, not in the least attempting to make and encrease a party: and for the words following (towards the end of this present Section) namely, this deepe silence and forbearance, so as not to occasion the least disturbance amongst the people, and bearing all with a quiet and strong patience, they referre to this passage of calling God and men to witnesse our constant forbearance, either to publish our opinions by preaching, &c. Now how can it be a deepe silence and forbearance not to occasion the least disturbance amongst the people, and a quiet and strong patience to beare all, whenas you did preach often of those points, though you might oftner forbeare? and I aske you, whether Sermons now and then preached of the opinions, was not an attempting to make and encrease a party, and that more then in the least? as also, whether some Sermons (though but now and then) would not occasion the least disturbance among the people? But besides the scope and intent of this whole Section, being to shew that you did not take advantage to make and increase a party, with the laying downe the Reasons and grounds of your forbearance, which are all against such a glosse and sense, your words of a constant forbearance to publish your opinions by preaching, cannot p. 219be understood of publishing your opinions now and then by preaching, though you did oftner preach upon other subjects, for preaching now and then would be in the least an attempting to make and encrease a party, and preaching now and then could not be a deepe silence and forbearance, and some Sermons would be the beginning of strife, and would be a meanes of rending and dividing the godly Protestant party in this Kingdome; Besides, the instant and continuall advices of Parliament men to you, were not that you would not for the most part preach of your opinions, but not at all, namely, to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference and your ingagement to the Ministers of silence, was not partiall or for the most part not to preach of those points, but it was totall, not to preach of them at all: And further, Constant forbearance to publish your opinions by preaching, must have the same construction as it hath in those words, printing any thing of your owne or others, for the vindication of your selves, or acting for your selves and way: both which, (especially that of printing) must necessarily be understood of a totall forbearance; for I suppose you doe not understand by those words, printing any thing, that you did not print so many books of your own, or others, as you could, and might have done, only a few books were now and then printed by you for your way, you would not have us put such an interpretation upon that part which concernes printing; so neither can it be upon that of preaching; and in a word, Constant, is not a Diminutive, (as such a glosse would make it,) but an Augmentative, (as we use to say,) a constant friend, and a constant preacher; and yet according to this sense, (which yet is against all Grammer, and against the Analysis and scope of this Section) some of you cannot evade, as M^r Simpson, M^r Burroughs, M^r Bridge, who in severall Churches, and upon severall texts, have frequently, sometimes in generall and more darkely, and sometimes more plainely and particularly, published their opinions by preaching: And if any of these Apologists shall in their Reply either deny or put off any of the particulars I have charged them with in point of preaching, (as being not a publishing their opinions, nor points of the Church-way,) I will in my Rejoinder p. 220(God sparing me life and health) print at large the particulars preached by them, and then the Reader shall judge (which now I omit least my booke should be too great.)

2. All of you have not forborne to print any thing of your own, for your opinions and wayes: For M^r Bridge, M^r Simpson and M^r Burroughs, have printed Sermons and Expositions of their own, wherein are severall things about the Church-way; as is to be seen in M^r Burroughs Exposition on the three first Chapters of Hosea, 1. Lecture on Hos. 2. 1, 2. pag. 224, 225. 7. Lect. on Hos. 1. 11. pag. 173. 5. Lect. on Hos. 1. 10. pag. 134, 141. 3. Lect. on Hos. 2. pag. 288. 13. Lect. on Hos. 2. 15. and in many other places of those expositions, passages are sprinckled for the Church-way. And in M^r Simpsons Sermons, called Reformations Preservatiō, on Isa. 4. the latter part of the fifth verse, and on Prov. 8. 15, 16. and in M^r Bridges Sermons, called Babylons Downfall, and that on Zech. chap. 1. ver. 18, 19, 20, 21. But supposing you had wholly forborne printing any thing of your own, you might well have done it out of policie, and yet your way not have suffered by it; so many books, and little Pamphlets having been printed, and reprinted since this Parliament for the Church-way, as amounts to the number (I thinke) of almost one hundred: And I aske of you, whether one or more of you, have not had a hand in perusing and examining some books of others, or in counselling and consenting to the printing of them, (especially some books from out of New-England, and particularly of M^r Cottons.)

3. Neither I, nor many other Ministers, are not satisfied of the truth of those words, That you have not acted for your selves and way: which words, as here brought in by you, must be understood, of acting, as distinct from preaching and printing, that is, as you have not published your opinions by preaching, so you have not by other wayes and meanes acted for your selves or way: as in making friends, or in mooving any Parliament men, or in consulting together what to doe about your way; no, alas good men, you have kept your houses close, and followed your studies hard, and seldome gone to Westminster, but have left the businesse of Independencie and the Church-way▪ to God wholly, leaving him to take care of his own way and cause. Brethren, how dare you p. 221write thus? if you have not acted for your selves and way since your returnes into England, and improoved your time well too, most who know you, are much deceived in you, and strangely mistaken: And suffer me to deale plainely with you, I am perswaded, (that setting aside the Jesuites acting for themselves and way) you Five have acted for your selves and way, both by your selves, and by your instruments, both upon the stage, and behind the curtaine, (considering circumstances, and laying all things together) more then any five men have done in so short a time this 60 yeares: and if it be not so, whence have come all the swarmes and troopes of Independents in Ministery, Armies, City, Countrey, Gentry, and amongst the common people of all sorts, men, women, servants, children: have not you five had the greatest influence to cause this? who have wrought so many Ministers, Gentlemen and people to your way? can it be in Reason thought all this is come about without your acting for your selves and way? is the peoples golden Calfe of Independencie and Democracie come out of it selfe, without Aarons making it? And whether you five have Exod. 32. 24.Exod 32:24not acted for your selves & way since this Parliament? I desire you to answer these questions, and then according to the truth of those questions let your consciences judge of the truth of these words.

1. Whether came not you over into England, and left your Churches in Holland with their leave, or rather being sent as Messengers to negotiate for your way, and for a Toleration of some Churches to enjoy Independent government, that is, a full, entire, compleate power within your selves.

2. When you were come over, did you not in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting, consult together, and debate about a Petition, and was there not one drawne to be presented to the House of Commons for a Toleration of some Congregations to enjoy a Congregationall government.

3. Have you not beene all along from your first comming over into England, to the writing of this present Apologie, intent and watchfull upon every thing in agitation, or about to passe in matters of Religion, that might make though but remotely for Presbyteriall government, and might (though but by a remote consequence and at a distance) touch upon or p. 222prejudice your Church way: As for instance, about the time of passing a Bill in the House of Commons against Episcopacy, and of consultation and debate what should be in the interim, till another Government could be setled, were not you zealous and active against that advice and counsell of a certaine number of grave Ministers in each County to be substituted for the time, (out of your feare of having but a shadow of Presbyterian governement, though but pro tempore) and how much you worked in that, with some of place, and what the issue of that was, you may remember: So upon thoughts and consultations (since this warre, of entring into a Covenant) and some Ministers being advised with, whether did not some of you stand for a clause to be inserted in the Covenant for liberty to tender consciences, and for want of such a clause, (that being opposed by some,) how long it was layed aside, &c. I desire you to remember. Againe, about the beginning of the Assembly, in the review and examination of of some of the Articles of Religion, and in the propounding but some orders to have been agreed on about the way of managing the Disputes and Debates in the Assembly, how tender have you been of any thing tending but to Presbytery, and that might (though but indirectly) reflect upon any of your Principles.

4. Have not some of you, (though may be not all) acted for your selves and way by constant Church meetings on the Lords day, in private houses preaching the word and administring the Sacraments even in the times of the publike Assemblies, where besides your own Church members, have resorted to your meetings many other persons, some members of Churches in New-England, and others belonging to the Church of England, and whereas M^r Simpson was a Minister of a Church at Rotterdam (which Church is still there) hath not M^r Simpson since his returne well acted for himselfe and his way, in getting such a rich and numerous Church, consisting of so many Gentlemen and Gentlewomen, rich Citizens, rich Virgins, &c. and hath not M^r Goodwin acted for himself and way, and at least in the least attempted to encrease a party, when besides those of his Church at Arnheim, that came over from thence, there are others here in London have gone to his Church p. 223meetings, and there are some, if not actually members (the ceremony may be being forborne that it may be said he hath added none to his Church) yet are Competentes Candidati Probationers, members in fieri, with their faces to Zion, and reputed members actually by them of nearest Relations and Co-habitations, (as I am credibly enformed) but must name none to prevent differences in neere Relations.

5. Have not some of you, if not all of you acted for your selves and way, in actually speaking, and moving some Parliament men to stand for you and for a Toleration of your Church way, and have you not been answered, shew us your grounds, let us know what you hold, and what you would have, and then you shall see that shall be done which is sitting; and out of zeale of acting for your selves and way, have not some of you suggested in private to Parliament men, the prejudice of their Parliamentary power, if they should admit of the Government of the Church of Scotland; pleading also for a necessity of a Toleration, and in particular I aske M^r Nye if he remember no such discourses, and that at Hull too.

6. Whether have not some of you, if not all, out of acting for your selves and way, hindred all that …lay in you, the sending for our brethren of Scotland to come to our help? and whether have not some of you much pleaded against sending for them in? and objected (as the Malignants doe) of the danger of their comming in, &c? and whether in as much as lay in you, did not you so act for your owne opinions and Church way that you would have hazarded the Kingdome, Religion, and all, rather then the losse of your Independencie, which you knew the Scots were so averse unto?

7. Whether have not some of you in Conferences with many good people, and by discourses in private, ac…ed for your selves and way, by stumbling them in the point of a particular Church, and in the point of coming to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, and by pleading for a Toleration of all opinions (that may stand with saving Grace) and doth none of you remember what was answered you? that Polig…mie might stand with saving Grace; and must that be tolerated?

p. 2248. Whether have not some of you tampered with some Parliament men about delaying the meeting of the Assembly, and suggesting to them doubts and feares about it? and whether in the Assembly have you not by all possible wayes both in opposing some orders of speaking but so many times to one point (the sooner to bring things to an end) and by other wayes all that you could delaied the proceedings of the Assembly, and all this out of acting for your selves and way, that so your party might increase, and your opinions spread before the Government might be setled.

9. Have not some of you out of acting for your selves and way endeavoured the bringing into the Assembly (since the sitting of it) some Independents to be members of it, and upon their being stopped, have not some of you earnestly dealt with some members of the House of Commons that they might passe their House? and what could this be but out of acting for your selves and way?

10. Whether have not you out of acting for your selves and way, had many meetings and consultations both of writing letters into New-England for their help and furtherance, and about what you should doe, and how to order matters since the Scots must be sent for, and since the Assembly could not be hindred, how things might be managed and carried for the best advantage of your cause and way? and whether was not this Apologeticall Narration one of the Products of your consultations? Now unto these ten I might adde other Quaeres, but shall reserve them to my Rejoynder, these being sufficient to satisfie you and the Reader: So that laying all these things together, what did you meane or thinke with your selves when you writ… these passages? could you imagine you danced in a net all this time, and that men tooke no notice of you, or that all had been forgotten that you had done and preacht? or did you imagine your power was so great with the people (having such a name) that all would be taken for truth you writ, or that your greatnesse was such that no man durst question what you had done, or appeare against your Apologie, (or if they did they should but blast themselves among the people, and the people would believe nothing against you,) what strange spirit possessed you to write thus? For my part, I feare not my name (I have learned to trust God with it,) and I dare (by the Grace p. 225and helpe of Gods Spirit) deale with you, and all of you in these Controversies: But supposing all you affirme of your selves had been true, eujus contrarium verum est (as is too evident by what I have proved) that you had neither preached, printed, nor acted personally for your selves, and way, yet all this forbearance might have been not from the grounds and reasons brought by you in this Section, but from other principles of wisdome and policie, as the more to ingratiate your selves with the Houses of Parliament, and to insinuate into their favour, and that you might the better make such an Apologie as this, and make use of it to your advantage at such a time as this, and I judge such considerations have restrained some of you, and prevailed with you, not to act so much as your fellowes, and not so openly (as otherwise you would) especially knowing whilest you were in the Tyring-house unseene, the Scene was full, and the Tragedie went on, there being no want of Actors on the open Stage to carry on your Church way: As for instance M^r W. M^r P. M^r K. M^r B. D^r H. M^r L. M^r G. M^r C. M^r B. M^r P. M^r G. M^r W. M^r W. S. M^r C. M^r E. M^r C. M^r A. M^r L. cum multis aliis, of whose preachings, and acting for themselves and way in gathering of Churches, &c. and of books made by some of them, and printed by others of them; it would fill a book to enumerate particulars, and to declare what hath been done in Citie, Countrey, Armies, and in all places to make and increase parties, and to occasion so great disturbance amongst all sorts, as that it will be found a hard worke to settle the Government of the Church, and to reduce the people. And I confesse you having such choice of Instruments and under-wor…men to work by, and to build your Babel, I marvell you contented not your selves with onelyonly casting the Modell, and giving the pattern and aime to others, but that you should appeare upon the workes your selves (as often-times you did.)

To your second main part in this Section, the Provocations you have had all sorts of wayes to have preached, printed, and acted for your selves both by the Common misunderstandings and misrepresentations of your opinions and practises, &c. I must tell you, I judge, and that upon good grounds, never men laying all things together, consideratis considerandis, had fewer provocations, for p. 226considering you were but a few in comparison, and going in a new different way from all the Reformed Churches, and the destructivenesse of your principles to Reformation, with the danger of them in drawing away and stealing our sheep from us, and the contempt of our Ministerie (occasioned by your principles) among all the people generally of your way, as also your leaving the land in the greatest need; notwithstanding all these and many more that all the godly Ministers of City, and Countrey should carry themselves towards you with that love, respect, fairnesse, brotherly kindnesse, as they did, might have provoked you indeed, but in another way then you expresse it: And for the truth of this I appeale to your owne breasts, and to the knowledge of my brethren, and to these following demonstrations. 1. There was a great deale of loving respects, and faire carriage towards you, both in admitting you into their Pulpits, and in forbearing all things offensive to you, and your party before the Sermons, to gratifie you. 2. There was a great deale of faire respects to you in admitting you into their Societie, and publique meetings about the matters of Reformation. 3. There was a generall silence by the Godly Ministers, (I feare unto sinfull) in forbearing preaching against your points, and that when some of you preached for your way and many Pamphlets were printed for it. 4. The Ministers suffered some of you, and no wayes interposed to hinder you from being the universall Lecturers of the Citie, who if they had appeared against you might have crossed it. 5. The Ministers courted you by all wayes of respect, and of high entertainment of you in loving speech, friendly countenance, familiar conversing with you, giving you the right hand of fellowship, and in a brotherly intreating you, not to appeare for your way, that so our differences might not hinder the worke of Reformation, withall promising you when they had obtained the Reformation desired, they should be ready to gratifie you all they could, and to consider you as godly Brethren. 6. Upon the Proposition and motion of silence about the points in difference, the Ministers were most ready and willing to enter into a strict engagement with you, and that though some of your way had been before hand with them in venting your principles amongst the people. p. 2277. There hath been much tendernesse expressed towards you, and readinesse of yeelding to you all along (the more to win you, to prevent an open breach, and to stop peoples mouthes) and particularly in the Assembly of Divines, where that patience, longsuffering, forbearing hath been exercised towards you, in your often and long speaking upon points, in speaking the same things over and over againe, &c. as would hardly have been towards any others, and I may truly speake it, many of our Ministers have not carried themselves towards one another with that love and respect as they have done to you. 8. The Ministers have in honour preferred you before themselves, and have been contented (in a good sense) to let you increase and they to decrease, and could be so contented still for Gods glory and the good of the Church. But I will particularly answer to your Provocations here alleaged, and shew you, that they were no Provocations to have caused you, to make and increase a party by preaching, &c.

For the 1. the common misunderstandings and mis-representations of your opinions and practises was not a sufficient provocation to preaching, &c. 1. because many of those mists were scattered by your presence againe without speaking a word for your selves or cause, and therefore needed not neither preaching, printing, nor acting for your selves and way. 2. You may justly thanke your selves for the misunderstandings of your opinions, and practises, carrying them so in the dark, and putting off from time to time a Narrative of your opinions and wayes (thoug… so earnestly desired by the Godly Ministers, and you sent unto so solemnly for it, as also promised by you often,) so that it was no fault at all in the standers by to misunderstand or mistake some things in your opinions and practises (especially being new, strange, and hidden too.) 3. Although you speake thus, that your opinions and wayes were misunderstood, and misrepresented (that being one of your usuall Artifices to delude with, and to keep off arguments brought against you) yet I doe not know any opinion or practise of yours misunderstood and misrepresented, I know none that was written against, or father'd on you, but what was either to be found in some of your Manuscripts, &c. (but of this I have spoken before.)

p. 228For the second Provocation, the Incitements to this State not to allow you the peaceable practises of your Consciences, which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed you, and these edged with Calumnies and reproaches cast upon your persons in print. I suppose in this you meane that booke written by me, entituled Reasons against Independent Government and against the Toleration of it, presented to the House of Commons; for as for any other book of that nature I remember none, besides you commend the other bookes written against your way and Tenets, page 15. Now that booke gives Reasons and Grounds for what it writes against, and you should have done well (either any one of you, or all of you) to have answered it, and had you shewed those Reasons to have been weake and unjust, then there had been some colour for you to have made that a Provocation to have acted for your selves and way, but by your silence you seeme to give consent to what was written against you. But how ever (though I writ both against your Government, and the Toleration of it in this kingdome,) yet not against the peaceable practises of your Consciences, but the unpeaceable practise of them (as you would order matters in England:) For I spent some leaves in that book to allow you the peaceable practise of your consciences, and chaulked Reasons against …oleration, pag. 43, 44, 45.you out a way, even with the saving of your principles (for which you have cause to thanke me.) As for my incitement to the State, it was not to persecution against you, for **Page 42.I laid downe a clear medium betweene persecution and a Toleration: As for that passage, which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed us; I have already answered that at large in my former booke, and I Reasons against Toleration, page 37, 38.will here adde another Answer to those I gave then; the reformed Churches abroad might safelier allow you the liberty of your consciences there, then this State can; for there being strangers, you and your Churches looked for nothing else, you looked not to enjoy the priviledges of offices, places in Church and Common-wealth, not to be in the ranke of States, Burgomasters, &c. but here in England you Independents will look for the like priviledges that others enjoy, as to be Majors of Townes, chosen Burgesses and Knights for Parliament, &c. whereby you will have a mighty influence and advantages to countenance and promote your way, and make parties p. 229every where (which must needs be of dangerous consequence to this State.) Now for those words, and these edged with calumnies and reproaches cast upon our persons in print. I answer, let the whole booke be perused, and let the Reader judge if the first part of the book consisting of the Reasons against Independent government be not wholly argumentative, (containing nothing personall, but rationall,) and for the second part, the Reasons against the Toleration, let it be examined whether that be not rationall also, and in many pages as full of yealding and sweetnesse as can well be with the keeping of peace and truth, and could be expected in such a difference of judgement; And whether also I give not in severall passages of that book to Ministers of that way, due respects, and fitting termes, only in one page of the book, in answering a popular Reason of yours for a Toleration (which I Reason against Toleration, page 49.had from one of your own mouthes) I gave a popular answer suitable to the Argument, (but so as without either foule or rayling language.) 2. I named you not, but spake as of many of your Ministers, why doe you then appropriate it to your selves? and I can truly speake it, that for one of you five to whom application is made more especially of some thing there written, I did not so much as meane or intend him, but doe openly acquit him, and disclaime it. I deny that any words or phrases in that book, spoken of those persons I intended them to, are calumnies, there is not a word but is true, and many can and doe witnesse so much, (who yet wish the passage had been left out, because▪ then all pretence of exceptions and cavill against the book had been taken away,) and for the reproaches you speake of, (which are a matter of truth) they are rather upon the opinions and principles, then the persons, comming to the persons from the opinions and principles received; And for my own part, I never wished that passage had been left out, for I know no reason, but when people fall into a way, because of the pretence of the great holinesse and grace of the men of that way, when those be the Arguments that take and deceive the people, but it is the duty of him who would preserve from the errour of that way, to shew the contrary effects (if he can,) and what did I doe more?

For the third provocation, all these heightned with this further p. 228prejudice and provocation that our silence was interpreted that we were either ashamed of our opinions or able to say little for them. I conceive that in this you may aime at me (as in the former) and I ingenuously confesse that your silence in not answering bookes, and particularly mine was interpreted so by me, and I have spoken to some, and spake it (even while it was given out by some of you it should be answered,) that you would not answer it for two Reasons. 1. Because you were not yet willing to make known your opinions, what you held, and what not, (the answer to which booke would necessarily have drawn out what you were not then willing to speake, nor yet doe in this Apologie.) 2. Because being accounted Schollars, if you did not answer it fully, and to purpose, you would rather loose then gaine, in a word, I thought you could not answer it satisfyingly, neither were you willing to impart your opinions publikely, so as they might be fastned on, that these are your opinions, so that considering how ready you have been in pulpits, and with the people (whom you might probably gaine) to vent your opinions, speaking where you should have been silent, and being silent when you have been desired by the Ministers (who understand controversies as well as your selves) and never answering any books written against your way, nor laying down neither in writing, nor by printing what you held with your grounds in a Scholasticall way, did give me and many others cause to interpret that kind of silence and reservednesse, to spring either from your being ashamed of your opinions, or from being able to say little for them: And if you answer not this Antapologie, I shall be like enough to interpret your silence, that either you are ashamed of some of your opinions, or able to say little for them.

For the fourth provocation, Whenas on the other side (besides all other advantages▪) books have been written by men of much worth, learning and authority, with moderation and strength, to prepossesse the peoples minds against what are supposed our Tenets. I answer, 1. You should have done well to have named what all other advantages our side had of you which might have provoked you to preach, print and act for your selves and way: You confesse in the last Section, page 24. You had manifold p. 229advantages to make and increase a party: but I know not what advantages were on our side, or if we had, that they were taken by us against you, wherby you have any just ground to set out your patience in not being provoked. 2. You should have done well to have answered the books, written by men of much worth, learning and authority, with moderation and strength; (though you answered not mine) and no man would have blamed you for that, but all men expected it, and blame you rather, for declining all those wayes of disputes, and of stating the points in difference between you and the Ministers, and dealing in popular wayes, and under-board with the people, who were ready to take any impression, and to be cast into any mould that had but the appearance of a stricter way. 3. If the bookes written by men of much worth, learning and authority, with moderation and strength, were but against your supposed Tenets, (as you say) and not your Tenets indeed, you not being named, nor personated in them, this was no such provocation to you to publish your opinions by preaching, printing, and to act for your selves or way: A cleare conscience might have sleighted them, and ingenuous men might in a few leaves, have clearely disclaimed all those points as not holding them, and there had been an end of all controversie. 4. I cannot let passe under this fourth provocation, that expression of yours, against what are supposed our Tenets, a usuall artifice of you and yourfollowers, that when any thing is written strongly against your way, which you know not how, nor never meane to awswer, you put it off with this, The question is mistaken, we hold not so, we hold otherwise: the answer you have given to all our books written by men of much worth, &c. the way the Arminians used to put off the learned answers made to their books, and the Tractates written by our Divines against their opinions, a very Jesuiticall device, and most unworthy of men professing conscience and piety, (in which expression of Jesuiticall, I intreat the Reader not to mistake me, as if I cal'd the Apologists so, or would ranke them in the forme of Jesuits, no I intend not that at all, but meerely to shew this way is not faire, as being the practise of Arminians and Jesuits, and so becomes not good men, as I judge the Apologists are.) But let the Reader judge, can it be thought, that all the p. 232bookes written since this Parliament by men of much worth, learning and authority; with moderation and strength, should be against you, upon supposed Tenets? that they should all fight with their own shadowes, and set up a man of cloutes, and beate him with strength, to suppose you to hold such Tenets which you doe not; what an imputation is this upon all who have written on these points? how does this imply a contradiction in the words and expressions used by your selves? that they should be men of much worth, learning, &c. and yet write against what are supposed your Tenets: this argued not much worth, nor strength in them; and suffer me here to vindicate those worthy men who have written of late against Independency and for combined Presbytery and Synods, that they write not against what are supposed your Tenets, but what are your Tenets really: Can it be thought that the learned Divines of Holland, as M^r Paget, who being exercised with M^r Davenport, M^r Hooker and others of your way upon the points, in many Conferences, and afterwards writ a book on purpose upon those points, should write against supposed Tenets, and that the most learned Voetius living in Holland, and having spoken with many of your way, yea with some of you (if I mistake not,) and writing so lately upon these points, upon the occasion of the newnesse of the controversie, should so mistake; or that the two reverend and learned Divines of Scotland, setting forth bookes chiefely upon the occasion of your dissents; (the first Divine having been in England so long in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting, and having had discourse with some of you upon the points, and the later M^r Rutherford, being so able a man and so well versed in the controversie) should conspire to prepossesse the peoples minds against what are supposed your Tenets: But if all these should have mistaken, that yet one of your owne Divines who writ more lately with much learning and ingenuity (as your selves confesse,) and your Licenser too, should fasten upon you supposed Tenets, seemes strange: But the best is, we have your selves confessing in the 15. page of your Apologie, that these Divines of Holland, Scotland and England, have written against your Tenets and government, directly, setly and with strength: and how could M^r Herles booke against Independency p. 233be written with much ingenuity, if he had prepossessed the peoples minds against what are supposed your Tenets, but are not so indeed: And however, though neither my selfe, nor my book against Independent governement are not in the number of the men and books of much worth and learning, written with moderation and strength; yet it is probable those Reasons against Independent governement and Toleration, troubles you as much as any other booke written, and may be more aimed at by you in this passage then other books, and therefore, to free my selfe, I have not ass…rted any thing in that book as your Tenet, but what I have good reason to beleeve you have held: and I can produce it, either as your known practise, or out of some Manuscripts that goe under some of your names; or from your own mouthes, or some intimate familiars of yours: so that unlesse according to your second great principle in the 10^th page, you have altered and retracted within these few yeares what six or seven yeares ago you held, the peoples minds have not been propossest by me with what are your supposed Tenets, but with your reall Tenets: & I desire you in your Reply, to give any instances to the contrary: And that neither I nor others may not write against your supposed Tenets any longer, I doe beleech you for the glory of God & the peace of the Church, to set downe positively and plainely all your Tenets, wherein you differ from the reformed Churches and the Reformation likely to be setled, and that with the grounds of them, or without the grounds, (if your other occasions will not allow you time) and I do promise you by the help of God, in a short convenient time (without any thing personall or matter of fact) to give you a direct answer from Scripture and reasons grounded thereupon, whereby we may understand one another the better, and bring this sad controversie between bretheren to an end the sooner. 5. We, who have written any thing against your way, have not so much prepossessed the peoples minds against your Tenets, as laboured to dispossesse them: we have all played the after-game too much, you the fore-game; you and your party have prepossessed the peoples minds with your principles, and have fil'd the City and Kingdome with your Tenets, and you have been on the prepossessing hand, filling many Parliament mens ear…s, and the peoples minds against Presbyteriall p. 232duplicate page p. 233duplicate page p. 234government, and instilling into them, things but supposed against that government, (as not giving enough to the power of the civill Magistrate:) It would grieve an ingenious and conscientious man, to see where ever one comes, how many good people of the Kingdome are prepossessed by being prejudiced against Presbyteriall government, that it will be worse then the Hierarchy, and more tiranicall to the consciences and liberties of the people, with such like: There was therefore, and is much need to cast out these Devils, and to unpossesse the people possessed, and by preaching, conference and writing, to preserve such who are not yet possest, and to prepossesse them with truth, because such is the nature of your errours, that hither to few who take hold of them ever returne; like Goodwin sands, that if a ship once strike upon them, there is no fetching her off: or as poison, which is hardly expelled, if once it be diffused through the body.