Full Answer to Apologetical Narration, Text (1 of 8)

Full Answer to Apologetical Narration · Text (1 of 8)

p. 1ANTAPOLOGIA, OR, A full Answer to a Booke Entituled, An Apologeticall Narration, &c.

AS the Assertors of truth, through the subtilty and malice of Satan and his instruments, causing prejudices and mistakes in the minds of many, have beene necessitated to write Apologies and make defences (as **Mat. 1. v. 18, 19. Acts 7. from v. 2. to v. 57. Acts 22. v. 1. to v 2…. Acts cap 24. Acts cap. 26.Matt 1:18Matt 1:19Acts 7Acts 22:1Acts 24Acts 26the Scriptures, and many Authours both aaJustin. Mart. 2. Apolog. pro Christianis. Tertul. Apol. Athenag. Apol. vel legatio pro Christianis. Athanas. Apol. Arnobij Apol. Eulog. Apolog…t. Sanctorum Martyr.Antient and bbZuinglij Apol. qua ad crimina respondet. Apologet. contra Episcop. Constant. Bucer. Apolog. contra Brentium. Dannaei Apolog. pro Helvet. Ecclesijs. Apolog Dan. pro adoratione. Melancthonis Apol. August. consess. Apolog. pro Luthero: Gualtb. Apol pro Zuinglio. Beza Apolog. Jevelli Apolog. Eccl. Anglicanae. Mort. Apol. Cathol.Moderne doe abundantly testifie,) ccSc…venfeld. Apol. contra Fabium, Apol ad Rege…. Hung. de mediatione. Stancari. Apolog. Vorstij. Theses Apolog. Exeg. Apol. Oratio Apolog. Bertij Apolog. Apolog. Remonstrantium. Apolog. Schast. Francae. D. P. Dirick P…ps Apol Apolog. Episcop. Francisc. de S^t• Cl.So many who have maintained errours, have purposely chosen the way of making Apologies, and justifications both of themselves and their opinions, that so by good words, and faire speeches, they might deceive the hearts of the simple. Amongst other erroneous spirits who have used this Artifice, the ddApologie of the Brownists. Robins. Apolog. Justif. of Separat.Brownists, and Separatists have not been least: (as is to be seen in some of their Books,) eeApolog. for Ch. Cove. Apol. Reply Davenport.The Independents and Semiseparatists have also taken up this way, as heretofore, so now in this present Apologeticall Narration, which I shall examine, and returne an Answer to, with all candor, fairenesse and respect, both to the Authours, and to the Booke, so farre forth as the truth and cause of God may suffer no prejudice. And I shall speake; first to the Title of the Booke, and then to the Booke it selfe.

p. 2As for the Title; An Apologeticall Narration of some Ministers formerly in Exile, now Members of the Assembly of Divines. It might have been fitlier styl'd, A Panegyricall Oration of some Ministers: Or, An Encomiastick: For all along the discourse, Encomiums and Praises are interwoven, and the Authours take all occasions to extoll, and magnifie both themselves, and their party; as many severall passages testifie.

Narration.] 1. An Accusation rather: for both openly, and more closely there are many dangerous insinuations, (and those oftentimes nothing to the matter in hand) by way of derogation, and depression of all Reformed Churches differing from them: as the Reader may observe in these pages. 2. A Narration should be plaine*, cleare, particular, true, perfect; or else it answers not the * Page, 4. 11, 19, 12, 24.nature and end of a Narrative: But this Narration will be found darke, doubtfull, generall, untrue, imperfect both in matter of fact and opinion; relating only part, and having a Reserve.

Of some Ministers formerly in Exile.] As this is part of the Title in the Frontispiece to invite the Reader, and take the people; so 'tis often mention'd in the body of the Book, some ten times, Us que ad Nauseam. But into what remote, and farre Countrey were you banish't? and what were the Companions of your Exile? Certainely the Reader, into whose hands your Apologeticall Narration comes, and finds, both in the Title and Booke so often mention, and such a matter made of Exile and banishment; will thinke, Alas! good men, into what Patmos, Indies, or remote wildernesse were they banish't and for…'t to flye? and will never imagine, that these were the exiled Ministers, and this their exile, who in a time of common danger, and suffering in their own land, went with their wives, children, estates, friends, Knights, Gentlemen and Citizens over into Holland, where they lived in safety, plenty, pompe and ease, enjoying their own wayes and freedome: and when the coasts were cleered, came over into England, were entertain'd and receiv'd with all respects and applause, and are now Members of the Assembly of Divines.

For the Booke it selfe: It consists of three maine parts. 1. The occasion of putting forth this Apologeticall Narration at this time. 2. The Narration it selfe. 3. The end and aime of it, exprest in p. 3the last page of the booke. To each of which parts, and all the particulars, I shall give a direct and positive Answer, by subjoyning the Answer to every passage of the Narration; whereby both being in the Readers eye, he may compare them together; and so judge the better both of the Apologeticall Narration, and the Antapologie. And I shall follow from page to page, and line to line, not omitting any materiall passage, either in matter or manner of expression, and in the matter no particular either of fact or opinion. And the Reader may observe, that I have tied my selfe to follow close where they lead me, not taking liberty to range or digresse. And this Answer, though it be not written in such strong lines, and inticing words as the Narration, yet (by the grace of God) it shall excell it in plainenesse and evidence; and in the words of truth and sobernesse.

As for this Apologeticall Narration, though at the first view and reading of it, it carries a face of fairenesse, candidnesse, modesty, ingenuity, especially to such who know not the Authours, neither the History, nor all the opinions, so that the learned Licenser, having lived remote (till of late) was strangly deceiv'd to give such a testimony to it; much more may the people. Yet many learned and godly Ministers who understand their way, and them; and have observ'd, their rise, progresse and proceedings in their Church way; even such who are their good friends, and tender enough of them, have quite another opinion of their booke; and judge they were much overseen in the framing of it: and that they have much lost themselves by it, and in due time, may heare more of it, as weli for the unseasonables of it, as for some things contained in it. My judgement of it is this: That 'tis indeed cunningly, and advantagiously drawne up, for to take, and deceive good people; to gather, increase and confirme their party by it; being full of specious and glorious pretences, and all plausible seeming compliance and correspondency with the Churches they d…rt from. And therefore my scope in this Answer, is the i…avouring to undeceive the people, and to wipe off the paint, and to shew the snake under the greene grasse, and the foule hand under the white glove: and upon the through and full examination of the booke, I can bring in this just charge against it: That there is p. 4not only fraud in relating part of the story and opinions, and not the whole, holding out the bright-side of the cloud, but hiding the blacke, but there are many manifest untruths in some of their Relations; and that even where God and men are called to witnesse: And I could in most passages of the Apologie, which are matters of fact, write the quite contrary to what they affirme. Besides, that some passages in the booke, crosse and enterfeere with others. As also there i… a dealing in generalls, and in the clouds, with many doubtfull and double expressions like Apollo's Oracles: There being few passages of moment either in matter of fact, or opinion, but they are so framed that they may receive a double construction: and that sense which according to Grammar, and ordinary acception they carry, cannot be meant.

[Now this charge and every particular of it, I shall make good in this following discourse. And because they have now by Name in so open a manner appear'd in print, as to present this Apologie to both Hous…s of Parliament; I must be forc't (though against my mind, and contrary to my purposes and resolutions) to name persons, times, places, occasions, with other circumstances which may evidence the truth of what I write to the Reader, calling God to witnesse (whom I desire to feare, and to whom I know I must give an accompt) that I faine nothing, nor wittingly mis-report any thing, no, not in the least circumstance: neither have I taken up reports lightly, but what ever I affirme or assert in this Answer, I either had it from their own mouthes, or can shew it in their own letters, or in other manuscripts, or in some printed books of men of their way and communion: or else have received it from credible persons, many of them eare witnesses, and eyewitnesses upon the places; All which witnesses are either learned, godly, judicious Ministers; or else godly Christians, some their friends and familiars who have beene amongst them, and converst with them, both in Holland and England. And I appeale to many of my Reverend Brethren in the Ministery, and to many godly Christians, and to the consciences of the Authours of this Apologie, upon second thoughts; and to their own followers, and Churchmembers, whether, all along I speake not the truth.

Our eares have been of late so filled with a sudden unexpected p. 5Apolog.noise of confused Exclamations (though not so expressely directed against us in particular, yet in the interpretation of the most reflecting on us) that awakened thereby, we are enforced to anticipate a little that discovery of our selves which otherwise we resolv'd to have left to time and experience of our wayes and spirits, the truest discoverers, and surest judges of all men and their actions.]

You make the ground and occasion of setting forth this Apologeticall Narration now, to be your eares of late so filled with a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations, interpretatively reflecting on you. It will hardly be believed by wise men, that such men as you should make such an Apologie, and that in such a juncture of time, (the Assembly sitting, and being upon Discipline, and you members of it) upon so weake and sleight grounds as a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations comming to your eares; which, as they are soone raised, so are they as soon gone and often die of themselves, and by wise men nothing more slighted, especially being sudden and confused. If other of your brethren who swimme not with the streame of the times, and are not the darlings of the people, should upon every occasion of their eares fild with a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations; (even when they are expressely directed against them, and not only in interpretation reflecting on them) write Apologies and make defences, they should judge they had little to doe, and might have filled City and Countrey with Apologies before now. There are who will not be perswaded, but are induced rather to think, there were other motives and grounds of your writing that Apologie at that time: and the rather, because there have been heretofore, such noises of confused exclamations (at least interpretatively reflecting on you) and you pass'd them by. Shall I tell you what is judg'd to have rather enforced you unto this worke: Many of the Ministers in the City, not long before drew up a letter to the Assembly concerning some Church grievances, and in particular, that of gathering of Churches, and drawing away their people: which letter, as it was not directed in particular against you, so, it reflected in the words and sense upon many others rather then your selves: which letter how it was accepted p. 6of by the Assembly, and what speeches and motions were upon it, how to remedy, and prevent the evills represented, and especially, that of gathering Churches, you better know then I. But soon after, some considerations were put forth, by many members of the Assembly, to disswade from gathering Churches: to which considerations your hands were subscribed. (Upon what reasons you complied in that, and whether you could not well avoide it, without greater prejudice to your cause, you know best.) And now whether this Apologeticall Narration was not first hastned to follow upon these considerations to counter-ballance that act of yours against further gathering of Churches, that your cause and way might receive no losse and prejudice, and to satisfie your own party (many of them greatly exclaiming against you for your hands to those considerations,) and so thinking by this after game to recover all, I leave to the reader to judge? 2. Whether also, you well knowing that the Assembly was upon the borders of the maine points in difference and upon comming to debate Presbytery, Ordination, Excommunication, you put not forth this book to tast and try the spirits of the Assembly and others before hand? 3. Whether also, this was not intended to pre-possesse the peoples minds to lay in prejudice against what the Assembly might determine: and by discovering your selves so before hand, and so publikely ingaging your selves, your party might appeare, and stand the more by you, and with you for a toleration, the great designe of the men of this way in these times? 4. Lastly, Whether (as much as you durst) this Apologie was not set out just upon the commingin of our brethren of Scotland to our helpe, to asperse the Governement and Reformation of the Church of Scotland, and to lessen the esteeme of that Kingdome and Church, so much and so deservedly valued by this Kingdome, but looked upon by all the men of the new Church way, as the great let of their Independent government? These reasons with some other may well be thought to be the ground of your Apologie, but that alledged by you (the sudden and unexpected noyse of confused exclamations) seemes so farre from a Reason, that upon good grounds is doubted whether it can be true that a noyse of confused exclamations reflecting on you and your wayes could be sudden and unexpected to you: p. 7'Tis strange to me that exclamations should be to you at that time unexpected, that a few men going in a new by way different from all the Reformed Churches of Christendome, and that with so high a hand as you, and your party have done, should not expect speaking against, and to have their eares filled with outcryes and exclamations (not only confused and interpretative) but distinct, particular and personall. Now as the pretended ground of making this Apologie is taken from you, so what you affirme in the following words (that you were awakened thereby) is denied, for you have never been asleepe since your comming over into England, but have been alwayes watchfull, and intent to the uttermost upon all things which might either further your way, or might hinder it, 'tis we who need something to awaken us, as having been too much asleepe in respect of you, for whilst the husbandmen have slept, you have both sowed tares, and reaped a harvest: But I am in hope that your Apologeticall Narration and this Antapologia together, will awaken both Parliament, Ministers and people, more and more, and open mens eyes to judge of things aright between you and us.

As for the being enforced to anticipate a little that discovery of your selves which otherwise you resolved to have left to time and experience of your wayes and spirits.

It appeares manifestly by what I have answered already, both of the weakenesse of that ground (a sudden and unexpected noyse of confused exclamations) and that in all reason you could not but expect exclamations that you were not enforced by that to make this Apologie, and to anticipate the discovery of your selves; Being schollers and understanding men, you may blush to write that such poore things should inforce you against your resolutions, but you were willing and desirous to make such an Anticipation, and so you would make and find some ground for it, judging a sorry excuse better then none at all, but however, you were not inforced to anticipate, yet I must tell you this Aoplogie is an Anticipation with a witnesse, such an Anticipation, both for the unseasonablenesse of it, and for the manner and way of it, as I judge no story nor age can paralell it: That you could not stay a little longer, but in such a time when we need so much the assistance of our p. 8brethren of Scotland, and the help of all other Reformed Churches, in the face of the Parliament, Assembly and Kingdome, to put out such a peece, and to doe such an act as this is beyond all example, and I will but represent to your selves and the reader in a third person, what you have done in making this Apologeticall Narration, and then leave you to give sentence. Suppose any other five Members of the Assembly, men, as considerable as your selves every way, both for piety and learning; nay, any twenty Members of the Assembly, had at the same time when you put forth this Apologeticall Narration, only presented a bare Narration of a Government, different, both from the Government by Arch-bishops, Bishops, &c. and from the Presbyteriall, to both Houses of Parliament; and that without reciting their doings, and sufferings, or pleading their great merits; or without casting any aspertions on Presbyteriall government, and the Reformed Churches: and should have peremptorily concluded, as you doe in two severall pages, viz. 22, and 24. That we doe here publikely▪ professe, the true Government to stand, and consist in the middle way, betwixt that which is called Episcopall and Presbyteriall: What would you five have thought of this? and how (think you) would this have been taken by the Houses of Parliament, and by the Assembly? Whether would not you five, and some others of you, have cry'd out of this, as a most strange fact, and have strongly moov'd, and aggravated it with all your might, that this affront, both to the Parliament, and the Assembly, so contrary to the nature and end of this meeting, to pre-judge, and pre-determine a Governement, might be censured with a suspension from the Assembly, at least, if not an utter expulsion. [As for the discovering of your selves by this Apologeticall Narration, which otherwise you should have left to time and experience: This booke, is not only a little discovery of your selves; but a mighty discoverer of your wayes and spirits; and shewes us what we may judge of you, who will put out in publike a piece so fallacious, and untrue as this will appeare to be. But how ever this is the first discovery of your selves in this way, with all your hands subscribed: yet, we have had a discovery of you for some yeeres past, both in your practises of withdrawing from our Publike Assemblies; and p. 9in gathering and constituting separated Churches; preaching (also) often on the points concerning your Church-way: as also, writing Letters and other Manuscripts, about …ose matters; with other wayes, wherein time, and experi…ce of 7, or 8, yeares last past, hath been sufficient discoverers, and sure judges of you and your actions.

And now we shall begin to make some appearance into publike Apolog.light, unto whose view and judgements should we (that have hitherto laine under so dark… a cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions) at first present our selves, but to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome, which is and hath beene in all times the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse to appeare before, much more to dare to appeale unto; and yet withall, the most sacred refuge ánd Asylum for mistaken, and mis-judged innocence.

'Tis strange, that having kept out of publike light, (as you say) all this three yeares space, you could not forbeare a little longer from telling fine stories of your selves, and publishing your particular private opinions in print: Especially, considering there was an Assembly of Learned Divines (of which you are Members) to declare unto, and with whom you might debate the points in difference: where (also) you know you have all freedome, and just respect. And I must tell you, 'tis the judgement, of some of your good friends, that you were much mistaken in the time now, and that you had been farre more excusable, if you had put out this Apologeticall Narration a yeare or two agoe: they interpreting it a violation of the Or…nce, by which you are Members, a high affront, and contempt to the Assembly in pre-judging of it: and such a preingaging of your selves, and party; as you cannot retreat so easily, and with that honour as you might before: As also, a ground of much disturbance and prejudice with the people against what shall be determined by the Assembly. As to that, you say, we now begin to make some appearance into publike light: In a sense'tis true, for all the time, that you have beene in your Church way, both in Holland and England, you have carried things closely; and conceal'd all that you could possibly, your opinions, and practises, with the grounds of them, from your brethren the Ministers, who studied and understood the points: But for tender conscienced, p. 10and weake Christians (especially such whom you had any interest in, any wayes, and you had any probability to gaine to you) you have not been wanting, either in letters of Invitation, or cominending some books of the Church-way to them: as also by preaching, and conference to draw them to you. As for that quere, Unto whose view, and judgement, should we at first present our selves, but to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome? I answer, 1. To any, rather then to the two Houses of Parliament, to present before them such a darke, covert, doubtfull, un-true Relation. 2. In these points of difference about Church-government and worship, you should have presented your selves rather to the Assembly than the Parliament, and if you consult the Ordinance (by vertue of which you are Members) you will find it more conformable to have first propounded your doubts to the Assembly; and if the Assembly could not have satisfied you, then, afterwards you had an allowance of giving in your Dissents, with the grounds of them to both Houses. As to that passage, Your having hitherto laine under so darke a cloud of manifold misapprehensions: which you make the ground of first presenting your selves to the Parliament by this Apologie: How does this agree with what you write in page 24? And we found many of those mists, that had gathered about us, or were rather cast upon our persons, in our absence, began by our presence againe, (and the blessing of God upon us) in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves or cause. And if at your first appearing, so many of those mists, and in so great a measure were vanisht; then surely, by that time your writ this Apologie, all might have been vanisht and scattered: But let me aske you: Whose mis-apprehensions, doe you understand, you lay under, that you present this Apologie to the Parliament, and appeale to them? Doe you meane, you have laine under the darke cloud of the manifold mis-apprehensions of the Parliament … or, of the people of the Kingdome? Certainely, not under the darke cloud of the mis-apprehensions of the Parliament, They are too great, and wise a Body, to be guilty of manifold misapprehensions of you: Besides, what Ministers have had the sunne of their favour shining upon them, more then your selves▪ You all have been made Members p. 11of the Assembly by them, called to preach before them, upon their publike solemne occasions: and some of you employed in extraordinary services: But if you understand the mis-apprehensions of the body of the people: why doe you present this Apologie to the Parliament? what would you have them doe for you? or how shall they free you from the darke cloud of manifold misapprehensions? I suppose, you doe not expect, that the Houses should set forth a Declaration to cleere you five: neither make an Ordinance, that whosoever mis-apprehends you and your wayes, shall be reputed ill affected to the publike (though M. S. your new great friend sets the brand of malignancie on them who are against M S. to A. S. cap. 5. pag. 83.you:) Why doe you then appeale to them, in respect of the misapprehensions of the people? or trouble them with so triviall a matter? Doe you not know, the people will mis-apprehend persons, and opinions, though plainely and fully laid downe? which yours never yet were. And indeed, for any cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions you have hitherto laine under, you may thanke your selves, and never appeale to the Parliament, to be a refuge, and Asylum, for your mistaken, and mis-judged innocence; whenas according to your owne confessions in this Apologie, going in a new, and different way from all the Reformed Churches, you have never yet declared what you hold, and what not: neither have answered the Bookes written against your way, but have reserved your selves: And yet, whereas you pretend a cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions as the ground in this way, first to present your selves, and to appeale to the Parliament: And 'tis a usuall phrase in the mouthes of your party to put off arguments with, that you are mistaken. I know not for mine own part, and some others of my bretheren, wherein any of you have been mis-apprehended by us; but we have so farre judged of you, as to goe by no other rules but your known practises, and your letters, and other manuscripts given, and sent out to your followers; and from what some who are of your own Churches, and your familiar friends have held out, and pleaded for, as your Principles: together with what we find in the printed Treatises of them of New-England, the New-England way being generally taken to be your way: and I heard M^r Bridge since this Parliament openly affirme it, for himselfe p. 12and others, we agree with them of New-England, and are of their Church-way: And M^r Burroughs hath said so too.

As for the first presenting your selves to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome: had it not been, for the reasons given you above, I should not have spoken against it: but seeing you have appeal'd unto them, unto them ye shall goe … unto the Parliament; as the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse, and withall, the most sacred Refuge and Asylum for innocence, I appeale too: humbly desiring them (if their great affaires can spare any time) to read this Antapologie, with the Reasons I, above two yeare… since, presented to the House of Commons, against your Helena of Independencie, and your Diana of toleration. Meane time I cannot but stand and wonder, that you knowing and acknowledging the Houses to be the Supreame Judicatory of the Kingdome, &c. how you had the face to presen… an appeale to them in things untrue: wherein many people can point to and say, passages in the 25, and 26 pages, are not so: I heard (saith one) at such a Church one of the five preach of their Church-way; and I heard (saith another) another of them, at such a Church, preach the like. But why doe I wonder? when it will appeare in the following discourse, you have so much in your own cause at this time lost your selves, and forgot your principles; as that ye doe ascribe to the grace of God, and call God to witnesse your constant forbearance of publishing your opinions by preaching, &c. which how untrue 'tis, I shall evince when I come to the 25, and 26 pages, or else let me suffer. And thus much for the occasion, or Preface of this Apologeticall Narration.

The most, if not all of us, had ten yeares since (some more, some lesse) severall setled stations in the Ministery, in places of publike Apolog.use in the Church, not unknown to many of your selves; but the sinfull evill of those corruptions in the publike worship and government of this Church, which all doe now so generally acknowledge and decrie, tooke hold upon our consciences long before some others of our brethren; And then how impossible it was to continue in those times our service and standings, all mens apprehensions will readily acquit us.]

Here begins the Narration, wherein we may consider, the Matter p. 13of it; and the Manner and way of the carriage and contrivance of it.

The Matter consists, partly of Fact and Practise: And partly of Opinions and Tenents: both which all along in their Narration are interwoven within each other: Their opinions and Tenents in their practises, and their practises in their opinions. The matter of the Narration consists of three maine parts: First, of their Opinion and fact before their Exile: The second of their Opinions and Practises in their Exile: The third of their carriage and behaviour since their returne into England, from their first comming over to the time of putting forth this Apologie. The Manner of carrying it all along, is clothing the Narration in such words, phrases and in such a way (though the Church principles are laid downe and maintained in it) as to make the Parliament and Kingdome believe they differ little or nothing from the Reformed Churches, and from our Church now: And in the things wherein there is some difference, of which they give but three instances (though the differences be many, and so great in their account as to constitute new Churches and to forsake communion upon them) yet they render them so to the Parliament and Reader, as if the Reformed Churches in the differences between them could not but allow their way and practises, though there may be some just question about their own. Now this Apologeticall Narration in all the parts of it both for matter and manner hath many flawes, both of untruths, and of doubtfull, darke expressions, consisting of generals, &c. The particulars I shall observe all along, and give animadversions upon them in their proper place.

Now before I answer to all the particulars contained in this Narration, I propound these two Questions to the Apologists to consider of.

Quest. 1. Considering that all of you fell not off from the dark part together, nor upon enquiring into the light part at the same time, that you went not over into Holland together, neither lived in Holland nor England neere each other, neither communicated principles at first to one another, yea were not some of you for a good time so much as acquainted together, besides that you p. 14were not all in the same condition, with other different circumstances; nay yet more that some of you, as M^r Bridge and M^r Sympson, for some yeares in Holland so opposite to one another: How you five could in this Apologie all along, both concerning matters of Fact and Opinion in England, Holland, and since your returne, make such narrations and solemne professions both positively and negatively (not only every man for himselfe) but each in the Name of all and for all: Amongst many instances I will name these; 1. How you can in the third page, every man for the other, speake what is there expressed, for suppose M^r Goodwin might looke upon the word of Christ as impartially and unprejudicedly, &c. yet how can M^r Goodwin speake this for M^r Sympson and M^r Bridge (the condition they were in being different from his) and I wonder how M^r Sympson and M^r Bridge can write this as agreeing to them both, knowing so well the contrary, and having in many words and letters to their friends, charged each other with great partiality and self-seeking. 2. How could you in the 6^th page, make that profession for one another, that all that conscience of the defilements, &c. did never work in any of us any other thought, much lesse opinion, when as you knew not one anothers thoughts and opinions. 3. How you can in the 24, and 25, pages write for one another, which we had not attempted in the least, we call God and men to witnesse our constant forbearance either to publish our opinions by preaching, &c. whenas you doe not know all that others of you may have done or preached.

Quest. 2. Seeing you doe in this Apologie write so often we have so and so, and we have not, we had not, nor any of us, supposing now some of you to have done, or not to have done, yet if it be found that any of you have done contrary, whether are not the others guilty in this case, and is not the proving such facts against any one or more of you, a proving against you all, and a direct confutation of your Apologie in those particulars: For instance, suppose M^r Ny and M^r Goodwin have not for their particulars published their opinions by preaching, nor attempted in the least to make a partie, but yet M^r Bridge, M^r Sympson, M^r Burroughs, have; and againe, suppose M^r Goodwin, M^r Ny, M^r Bridge, M^r Burroughs have not gathered nor added to their Churches p. 15multitudes, but M^r Sympson only, whither now M^r Goodwin and M^r Ny, having made professions, protestations in the Name of all, are not faulty and guilty too, and may not be justly charged in the Answer, of untruths in such particulars (though M^r Bridge and M^r Sympson should only be formally guilty.)

The foure first lines of this Section, containing the relation of your stations in the Ministery, is granted you: But as to that part of this Section, The sinfull evill of those corruptions in the publike worship and government of this Church, &c. I desire to propound this question to you: Whether by the sinfull evill of those corruptions, in the publike worship and government of this Church, you understand the things reputed to be established by law, as the Book of Common Prayer: The Entrance into our Ministery by Ordination of Bishops, and living under the Episcopall government? Or whether, by the sinfull evill, the Innovations in the government and worship, as bowing to Altars, &c. which came in of later dayes? Now if you meane the first, that which usually was called, Old conformity, in opposition to the New: So I deny that all doe now generally acknowledge and decrie that as sinfully evill; which appeares thus: Because that Remonstrance presented to the House of Commons in the beginning of the Parliament, subscribed by many hundred godly Ministers, conformists, and non-conformists for Reformation in Worship, Doctrine, Government and Discipline: The Government, Worship and Ceremonies were impleaded, in respect of many inconveniences, and evill consequents; but Petitioning against them, as sinfully evill, and absolutely unlawfull was declined: And there are many Parliament men and Ministers, who have a great zeale to the present Reformation in casting out the Hierarchy and Ceremonies, who are not yet convinced that all their former practise in the way of old conformity, was sinfull: But as those times were, doe judge they did lawfully continue their standing in their places and in this Church: much lesse are they satisfied that either Episcopall government, or the Lyturgy were sufficient grounds of forsaking our Publike Assemblies, and erecting new: Amongst a cloud of Learned and godly men, take the testimony of Gerson Bucerus in his learned answer to Doctor Downham, who for the point of p. 16Dissert. de Guber. Eccl. pag. 620.Episcopacie allowes not of schisme in the Church, but vindicates Quinam buju… criminis rei judicentur me quidem latet, ne que in qirere ad nos attinet. Hoc scio, no… convenire in eos, qui intra sententiae nostrae terminos se continent.himselfe and others who keepe within the bounds of his opinion from being guilty in that kind. Which Answer to the first part of this Section is not here given by me, in the least to plead for the Hierarchy, Ceremonies or present Liturgy (for I heartily desire their removall) but only to shew the Apologists mistake in asserting that all doe now so generally acknowledge and decrie them as sinfully evill. And besides, if you understand these, you cannot be ignorant that Episcopacy, and the old Ceremonies took hold upon the consciences of many others before you: even upon the good old non-conformists you speake of afterwards, Yea, and upon many of your Brethren (of the same time) long before you, as M^r R. M^r H. M^r Sl. M^r R. M^r A. M^r P. cum alijs: who yet never ran into your principles of forsaking the publike Assemblies, and gathering Churches: so that many non-conformists leaving the Ceremonies before you, and yet being farre from your Church-way, may counter-ballance what you would gaine with the people by your Insinuations, and Narrations of leaving the Ceremonies long before some of us: But if by sinfull evill, you meane, the Innovations, of bowing to Altars, &c. then those of us who stand for a generall Reformation, did then acknowledge and decrie them, and they took hold upon our consciences assoone as any of yours: We as much abhorring bowing to Altars, publishing the Declaration for Sports, &c. as you: and witnessing more frequently against them in our Ministery then some of you.

As to those lines in the close of this Section, The impossibility of continuing your stanaings in those times, I confesse there was a great improbability of continuing your publike ministery in those places of London, Cambridge, &c. But whether in some other parts of the Kingdome more remote and obscure you might not have injoyed your Ministery without an impossibility, I question.

Neither at the first did we see or looke farther then the darke part, the evill of those superstitions adjoyned to the worship of Apolog.God, which have been the common stumbling block and offence of many thousand tender consciences, both in our own and our neighbour Churches, ever since the first Reformation of Religion: p. 17which yet was enough to deprive us of the publike exercise of our Ministeries, and together therewith (as the watchfulnesse of those times grew) of our personall participation in some ordinances; and further exposed us either to personall violence and persecution, or an exile to avoide it: which latter we did the rather choose, that so the use and exercise of our Ministeries (for which we were borne and live) might not be wholly lost, nor our selves remaine debarred from the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ, which we account our birth-right, and best portion in this life.]

For some of you, I judge this to be true, as of M^r Goodwin, and M^r Nye; knowing something of the story of M^r Goodwins first comming to fall off from the Ceremonies, (having seen and perused the Arguments and Reasons that past between him and M^r Cotton and some others:) and M^r Goodwin assured me, some Moneths after his going off, that he had nothing to say but against the Ceremonies: The Lyturgy offended him not; much lesse dreamed he of this Church-way he since fell into: So that is true, at first he saw but the darke part, and that but of the Ceremonies. But for others of you: as namely, M^r Bridge, and M^r Burroughs, whose hands are subscribed to this Apologeticall Narration (and this passage is spoken in the Name of you all, not some, or most of us, (as in some other passages) but Wee, as relating to all,) they did not at first see the darke part, nor the evill of those superstitions, (namely, the Ceremonies) but were men judged conformable, and practised conformity till the yeare of Bishop Wrens Visitation, and the sending down to Norwich his Injunctions: about which time, and upon which occasion, M^r Bridge, with other Ministers of the City of Norwich, being first suspended, and M^r Burroughs afterwards at the Visitation; and times growing so very bad, that there was small hopes of admittance againe into their places upon ould Conformity, M^r Bridge tooke his degree per saltum, from a reputed Conformitant in the Church of England, and might have continued so till this present Parliament, (for ought I know) to fall suddenly into the Church-way, without long seeing, or looking into the darke part or inquiring into the light part of Church-worship and government, as that p. 18short space between his suspension at Norwich, and his being received into a Church at Rotterdam, and thereupon his fierce Letters to some of his old friends in Norwich to come from the Church of England, will fully show, by which it is manifest, To his loving friends Mr Henry King, Mr Tost, Mr Smith, Mr Raner, Mr Mapp.the sinfull evils of those Ceremonies tooke not hold upon Mr Bridge, and Mr Burroughs consciences till suspensions for Bishop Wrens Innovations first took hold of them.

'Tis confest the refusing of the Ceremonies in the places you were setled in, was enough to deprive you of the publike exercise of your Ministeries in those places: Especially considering the using of the Ceremonies could not preserve some of you from suspensions; But the refusing of the Innovations, was matter enough to silence you there: But whether the simple forbearing of the Ceremonies (especially having left your places, and not taken others) was enough to deprive you of your personall participation in some Ordinances, and further exposed you, either to personall violence and persecution, or an exile to avoid it, that I much doubt, and am no way satisfied: Considering, notwithstanding the watchfulnesse of those times, that many non-conformists did injoy, not only some, but a personall participation in all the Ordinances of Worship, (as we use to speake:) namely, Word, Prayer, Sacraments, singing of Psalmes: and that in some good degree of peace (so as to be kept out of the High-commission Court, and prisons) and were not put upon a necessity of exile: And how ever, they resolved to venture some persecution, and violence to doe God some service in their own Countrey, rather then to leave the Land, and desert the cause of God here, and so give it up wholly, (as it were) to the enemy: If all others had done as you five, according to an ordinary way, what had become of this Kingdome? But besides this I remember some of you, as M^r Goodwin and M^r Nye, after ye fell off from the Ceremonies, did for some space so long as you saw no farther then the darke part, partake in the Ordinances here, and in that of the Lords Supper too, without kneeling: and M^r Nye's children were baptized without the signe of the Crosse: and in the sixt page of this Apologie you acknowledge, that some of you, even after you actually were in this way of communion, baptized your children in Parishonall p. 19Congregations; which I suppose you would not have done without liberty, from the evill of those superstitions annexed to the worship of God: And further, for some three yeares space after M^r Goodwin and M^r Nye, saw the darke part, (nay, after some good time they saw the light part,) they stayed in the Kingdome, and were both of them publike enough, and preached sometimes, yet free from personall violence and persecution, and needed not for any personall persecution or violence they were under to have left the Kingdome: And so M^r Burroughs, what ever his judgement was after his suspension about the darke part and the light part, was free and safe in the Kingdome till for some speeches spoken about the Scottish Warre in some company not to be trusted, he for feare thereof fled in all haste to Rotterdam. So that these things stumble me at the truth of these particulars, that you needed not have chosen for the bare refusing the Ceremonies, that which you so often terme Exile and Banishment to enjoy the Ordinances, and to avoide personall violence and persecution. But, how ever this is held out as a fine story to the Reader, yet to me, there are other Reasons seeme more probable (which you thought good in your wisedomes to conceale) which made you chuse that which you so affect to call Exile, namely, that you might enjoy all the Ordinances of Christ, (as you use to speake) whereof some of them the Reformed Churches have not, and that in your Church-way of separated Assemblies (which is imply'd by you in the close of this Section) as also, that you might have some maintenance by the people that went over with you, and still hoped upon the bad times in England to draw over more, which according to the good old non-conformists principles you could not doe: As also, that you might secure your selves from all possibility and feare of persecutions, be certainely safe upon the shore whilst your brethren were at sea sea in the storme.

This being our condition, we were cast upon a farther necessity Apolog.of enquiring into and viewing the light part, the positive partof Church-worship and government; And to that end to search out what were the first Apostolique directions, patterne and examples of those Primitive Churches recorded in the New Testament, as that sacred pillar of fire to guide us. And in this enquire we p. 20lookt upon the word of Christ as impartially, and unprejudicedly, as men made of flesh and blood are like to doe in any juncture of time that may fall out; the places we went to, the condition we were in, the company we went forth with, affording no temptations to byas us any way, but leaving us as freely to be guided by that light and touch Gods Spirit should by the word vouchsafe our consciences, as the Needle toucht with the Load-stone is in the Compasse: And we had (of all men) the greatest reason to be true to our own consciences in what we should embrace, seeing it was for our consciences that we were deprived at once of what ever was deare to us. We had no new Common-wealths to reare, to frame Church-government unto, whereof any one piece might stand in the others light, to cause the least variation by us from the Primitive pattern; we had no State-ends or Politicall interests to comply with; No Kingdoms in our …ye to subdue unto our mould; (which yet will be coexsistent with the peace of any forme of Civill Government on earth:) No prefenment or worldly respects to shape our opinions for: we had nothing else to doe but simply and singly to consider how to worship God acceptably, and so most according to his word.

This being our condition, must relate to what goes before, which I judge from the literall and gramaticall sense can be no other but this: That falling from the Ceremonies, which was enough to deprive you of your Ministeries, and the participation of some Ordinances, and further exposed you to violence or exile to avoide it, which latter of exile you chusing rather for the ends specified, that put you upon a necessity of enquiring into and viewing the light part, the positive part of Church-worship and Government; Which words seeme to carry this sense that upon your chusing exile, you fell upon enquiring into the light part, and not before, and all the understanding Readers, whom I have spoken with about this passage, take them so: But because you doe not positively say so, and your words may have some evasion; and I would not fasten any thing on you, as said by you in this book that you affirme not; Let me put to you, for the understanding your minds, this question, Whether you take chusing an Exile, for, your resolution and purpose when you should see p. 21convenient time to leave the Land; (and not for your actuall leaving the Kingdome;) and so fell upon enquiring and viewing the positive part of Church-worship and Government; and to that end to search out what were the first Apostolique directions recorded in the New Testament, whilst you were in the Kingdome? Or else, Whether after you were come into Holland, and so actually were Exiles, then you were cast upon the enquiring into the light part? Now if you meane, these words, in the first sense, and that the Reader must understand them so; which I must tell you (as it is a very harsh sense, and for a Narration to speake so doubtfully, is not faire,) so all your discourse following upon it in the 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 page is vaine, and to no purpose to work that in the minds of the Reader which you drive at: Besides there are many passages in those pages cannot admit of such a sense, but plainely referre to your being in Holland; as, those words, The places we went to, the condition we were in, the company we went forth with; and we had of all men the greatest reason to be true to our own consciences in what we should embrace, seeing it was for our consciences that we were deprived at once of what ever was deare to us; with many other like passages: But if you meane the words in the second sense, as the coherence and scope of the discourse going before and following, carry it; namely, that when you were in Exile, then you began to search out the positive part of Church-worship and Government; let me propound my reasons, why I doe not beleeve it, but doe judge, that most of you (if not all) were upon the light part, and in the Church-way in your judgements before your leaving England, and so when you came over needed no great search into it. In the sixt page you speake expressely, that some of you were actually in this way of communion, and after that baptized your children in Parishonall Congregations; which words there exprest must of necessity referre to England before your going over, and cannot be understood whilst you were in Holland or since your returne into England, unlesse you meane things quite otherwise then you speake. And that you were beyond the darke part, the evill of those superstitions adjoyned to the worship of God, (which have been the common stumblingblock of many thousand tender consciences, which cannot be p. 22understood but of the Ceremonies and some corruptions in the Lyturgy) let me besides your own confession in the sixt page, put these questions to your consciences, and in your answer deny them if you can.

1. Whether some of you whilst you were in England, did not for a long time, wholly forbeare comming to the Lyturgy, and comming to the Lords Supper at all in our Congregations, because of the prescribed forme of Prayer, and mixt Communion?

2. Whether one of you five told not some friends that he had found out a forme of Church-government as farre beyond M Cartwrights, as his was beyond that of Bishops?

3. Whether another of you had not so much declared his judgement against the lawfulnesse of set formes of prayer prescribed, as thereupon, at the request of some great persons of worth, M^r Ball (now with God) had not a conference and dispute with him at Mr Knightlyes upon it? And whether the same person residing near Banbury did not both by preaching and otherways vent many things against prescribed formes of prayer, and Communicating in our assemblies, so that the Countrey thereabouts was much disturbed, and that painfull preacher M^r Wheateley (now with God) much grieved by the falling off and withdrawing of some?

4. Whether also, one of these Apologists, was not so farre gone in the principles of the new Church-way, as that he would not be Apol. Iusta & necessaria per Joh. Robins. cap. 6. De conjugio per pastores Ecclesiae celebrato.married by Ministers, but deferred marriage till he came into Holland, where presently after his comming he was married, (not in the way of the Reformed Churches there,) but by the Magistrates according to the way of the Brownists, as it is laid down in Robinsons Apologie?

5. I aske, What some of you, whose Names are to this Apologie, with other Ministers of your way (who are now with God) with some Gentlemen, did at Missendon in Buckingham-shiere, the winter and spring before you went into Holland, and whether that company which went over with you into Holland were not engaged in the Church-way, and principles before you left England? And I aske, how long it was, when once you came to Viana, where you setled for a time, before you practised your Church-way? Whether you tooke any long time of searchingout p. 23what were the first Apostolique directions, before you fell to the practise of it? I deny not but you might adde somethings to your Church-way after your comming over; and had you stayed there till this time you had added with a witnesse: of which I shall speake more afterwards.

6. If M^r Bridge carried not the positive part over with him, I aske, whether upon the change of the ayre presently after his comming over, without any great time of searching out what were the first Apostoilque directions, he were not admitted a member in the Church-way, and then chosen one of the Ministers of that Church at Rotterdam, And whether M^r Burroughs, flying over for words spoken, was not quickly admitted into the Church at Rotterdam? So that, if these instances be true, here was no great time of enquiring and viewing, after Exile, before you fell to practise; nor no great time allotted to search out what were the first Apostolique directions, patterne and examples of those Primitive Churches recorded in the New-Testament. And to put it past question that you were resolved of your Chu…-way before you left England, (at least M^r Goodwin and M^r Nye) I have a Letter by me under M^r Archers hand the Pastour of their Church, dated Septemb. 12, 1637. which was about six weekes after landing, (for in another Letter from him to me, he writes, I landed Iuly 27.) wherein he writes thus in way of an answer to a passage in a Letter of mine dated August 23. concerning his being in the Church-way; As for your judgement and the worke you are about, I heard of it before: and have not so long stood by afflicted, soberly and conscientiously ta search out the truth, but have throughly seene into the bottome of it, in such a measure, as I am confident that in the end you will all come to us, and not we to you: And in the same Letter he speakes of all with him to be of the same judgement, which fully shewes their engagement before they came to Holland.

But as to that Dilemma, whether before your going into Holland, or whether afterwards you fell upon the positive part of Church-worship and Government; it matters not much in reference to that which followes upon it: for even that which is granted by you without any question, namely, your stumbling at the p. 24Ceremonies; and thereupon chusing Exile to avoide the possible hazard of personall violence and persecution, which put you upon necessity of enquiring into the light part, hath much in it of selfe to byas, and to draw you to that way of Worship and Government in which you are in, that so you might be provided for, well and comfortably in your Exile with company and maintenance; (which only could be in these principles of your Church-way) for according to the non-conformists-principles you could not have drawne any over, nor set up your Church-way: and I should in reason have thought, that had you been free and not cast upon this necessity by chusing Exile, (as my selfe and others were) in the studying of these points, (though in as much danger from the Prelaticall faction as your-selves) you might more impartially and without preingagement have seen the truth: for it is too often seen, that necessity is ingens telum, and drawes aside often the judgement and practises of good and wise men: and so might doe yours: And therefore you must pardon me if I question whether in your enquiry into the first Apostolique directions, you lookt upon the word of Christ as impartially and unprejudicedly as men made of flesh and blood are like to doe in any juncture of time that may fall out: I judge, the Reformers in the Reformed Churches of Geneva, Scotland, &c. upon many reasons, (some Reformat. of Ch. Govern. in Scotland, pag. 4, 5, 18, 19.whereof are hinted by the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland) were like to looke more impartially, and without prejudice upon the word of Christ, then you; they were not forced to fall on their Church-government, by a necessity of Exile, but having learned it from the word, some of them suffered Exile for it: and others resolved to hazard the utmost for it, not upon every feare and imagination, forsaking their people and countrey; but resolving to doe the will of God, and to promote his cause in their own countrey what ever it cost them: And besides the first Reformers, I beleeve there be many in these times, who studying these points have looked more impartially upon Church-government and discipline, and been freer from engagements and worldly respects then your selves: and when I weigh the Reasons intimated of your impartiality, and free guidance by the Spirit, I am no way satisfied, but they serve all to afford temptations to byas you that way you are in.

p. 25As 1. For the Company you went forth with, both men and women were principled and ingaged in the Church-way, and the company some of you went to, being in the open practise of it: And 2. As for the Places you went to, namely, Holland, that gives liberty of conscience, and toleration to sundry Sects, which is an invitation to errours; So that you had certainty of enjoying your way there: 3. As for the Condition you were in, (which is before specified,) so besides one of you was not willing, for some reasons he knowes best, to live wholly upon his wives meanes, and so needed a Church to allow him maintenance: Another being in debt: A third forced to fly for feare of severe punishment for words spoken left you not as freely to be guided by that light and touch Gods Spirit should by the word vouch safe your consciences as the Needle toucht with the Loadstone is in the Compasse: So that if these circumstances be well considered; with some others of the like nature; the doore of hopes, being shut up here, of your publike Ministery, and the meanes of livelihood to most of you, and without holding and maintaining these principles, there being no way of having Churches, whether it is not more probable, you being men made of flesh and blood, (as that you confesse your selves) and having hearts deceitfull as well as other men, may be partiall in this relation of your selves, and the temptations of company, place, condition draw you strongly, though you thought it not. But before I passe to other Reasons exprest by you in this page, I cannot passe over the high and great words of your selves, namely, In this enquiry we lookt upon the word of Christ as impartially, and unprejudicedly, as men made of flesh and blood are like to doe in any juncture of time that may fall out: the places we went to, the condition we were in, the company we went forth with affording no temptation to by as us any way, but leaving us as freely to be guided by that light and touch Gods Spirit should by the word vouchsafe our consciences, as the Needle toucht with the Loadstone is in the compasse.

Brethren, it had been more humility and modesty to have suspected your selves, and to have prefer'd in honour, others before your selves, and it had been more agreeable to the counsell of the Holy Ghost, not to have thus extold your selves: Who are you? And p. 26what are you? that you should affirme all this of your selves: The Apostles S^t Paul, Peter, Iames and Iohn, would not have spoken these words of themselves: and indeed, some of the words doe more suite the condition of Angells, and the spirits of just men made perfect, then men on earth subject to like passions as other men: What! your condition, &c. afford no temptation, to by at you any way, but leaving you so freely, &c. 'Tis such: a piece of selfe-flattery and pride, that hardly the Popes-parasites have in the sense of these words exceeded: The great lights of the Church in the first Reformation, Luther, Calvin, Knox, &c. would have blusht to have had these lines affirmed of them, much more to have been spoken by themselves: but how meanely soever you may think of the Reformers before you, in comparison of your selves (as some passages in your Apologie imply) yet how know you who may come after you to excell you as much in light, as you judge you doe the Reformers that went before you, that you speake of the time that may fall out, and is yet to come: can you foresee what men are like to doe in aftertimes. As for that expresse reason: You had of all men the greatest reason to be true to your own consciences in what you should imbrace, seeing it was for your consciences that you were deprived at once of what ever was deare to you: In which passage, you intimate your great sufferings above other men, as if you above others had the greatest reason to be true to your consciences, they not suffering like you: I must tell you, I know some men, that for God and his truth suffered more in England then all you five, and all your Churches put together did in Holland; who yet were against your Church-way. And for this reason, there is little strength or truth in it: and the former part of it is as likely to be true as the latter: Let me sadly put the question to you: How dare you affirme, that for your consciences you were deprived at once of what ever was deare to you I Were not your wives, children, estates, friends and lives deare to you? Had you not all these with you … and did you not in the Netherlands live in the best places, in much plenty, ease and pompe? But what great deprivation at once is this, of what ever is deare? for men to take their own times, and to goe in Summer time with Knights, Ladyes and Gentlewomen with all necessaries p. 27into Holland, and there to take choice of all the Land where to reside, and with wives, children, in the midst of friends and acquaintance, free from the feares, and possibilities of vexations of the Spirituall Courts and Prisons, to injoy all plenty and freedome, as you did? There are many would have been glad, and still would be of such a deprivation at once, as to be so Exiled into Holland, to be able to spend, two, or three hundred pounds per annum there. And I must here mind one of you, in whose Name this reason is brought, that this cannot be affirmed of him, that for his conscience he was deprived at once of what ever was deare to him, seeing he fled into Holland for words about State matters. As for those other Reasons following: You had no now Common-wealths to neare, to frame Church-government unto, you had no State ends, or poloticall interests to comply with; no Kingdom… in your eye to subdue unto your mould; no preferment or worldly respects to shape your opinions for. Suppose all this to be true which you say, (which yet, I for my part, upon good reasons doubt) what will you build upon it; What followes, that therefore you must alone be in the right for Church-government? 'tis denied, it no way followes: for many of the poore Anabaptists and Brownists had no new Common-wealths to reare, not so many State ends, and politicall interests to comply with, as you (as upon good reason, and the experience of you here, all men will grant:) and yet you confesse the Anabaptists and rigid Brownists are out of the way. And besides, had not many of the first Reformers, Reformat. of Ch. Govern. in Scotland, pag. 10.(as the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland well observe) as few Common-wealths to reare, as few State-ends, or policicall interests to comply with, as you? Nay, are not some of you greater States-men, and polititians, and looke more to preferment and worldly respects, then ever they did? And are there not amongst us in these times, men differing from your Church-way, that eye Common-wealths, State-ends, and politicall interests as little as you doe? why then is all this brought in by you▪ quorsum haec? to what end is all this, with the preceding passage, but to insinuate with the people as if you alone were the men that lookt so impartially and …prejudicedly on the word; as if you alone had no State-ends, nor politicall interests, no… … preferments p. 28in your eye; and therefore in searching into the word have found out the right way: but other men, not having suffered as you, and having State-ends and worldly preferments to looke to, &c. they are out of the way. But, as I said, I doubt concerning all these grounds given by you: You had new Common-wealths to reare; to frame Church-goverment unto, when you first fell to these principles; namely, the new Common-wealth of New-England to frame your Church-government unto, where some of you were first bound in your thoughts and purposes (as you well know,) and I shall make more evident in a following page: And therefore the Church-government there might stand in your light when you first enquired into the Church-way; and might cause some variation by you from the Primitive patterne, namely, to looke too much to that where you thought to have Ministery and Subsistence: You had also, some ends, and interests, and worldly respects to comply with in your going into Holland, rather then New-England which you first intended: and these may fitly be termed State-ends, and politicall interests, namely …at when some great persons, Lords and others should be forced, through the badnesse of the times, (as was expected and feared) to seek for shelter in Providence, and Hispani…la, you might be there ready to remoove with them, and be taken along into those Countreyes, where you hoped to set up new Churches, and subdue those Countreyes and people which should come over, into your mould. Or if otherwise things in England should come to have a great turne, (as they had by this Parliament) then also by being in Holland rather then New-England, you were nigh hand, and your estates more at command, quickly to returne to England, having this Kingdome in your eye, hoping you might either subdue England into the way of your Church-gover…ent; or else gaine a great party to you … the Kingdome, (which we see is unhappily fallen out:) And …, all the State-ends and interests to come, which you might lo…ke upon in your remooving to Holland, there were worldly r…spects and interests for the present, to make you goe in the Chur…-way (as I have before observed.) And to all these, whereas yo… make the having no new-Common-wealths, no Kingdomes to eye, to frame Church-government p. 29unto; as the ground of falling upon the right way; Let it be considered by you and the Reader, that the framing of a Church-government according to the conjunction of a few godly persons, either in a Plantation, or as strangers in a Common-wealth; Reformat. of Ch. Govern. pag. 18. 'Tis laid for a common ground by the Divines in all the …eformed Churches, that where a whole Nation is converted to the Christian faith, every particular Church is not to be left to it selfe as if it were alone in a Nation, but that Christ hath provided a way and there is a necessity of a common Nationall government to preserve all the Church… in unitie and peace.and not considering of a Church-government for Nations and Kingdomes, that when Kingdomes and Nations doe receive the faith, and the Magistrates are Christians and Orthodox, that there must be a Church-government as for a Nation and Kingdome; is that very thing that deceives you: there being, alia ratio urbis ac orbis, and so a great difference of governing a family two or three, or of a Towne, and of governing a Nation and Kingdome. But as for that Parenthesis you make, before you end this Section; (That your Governement will b… coexistent with the peace of any forme of Civill Governme… on earth,) out of the great care you have, least your Church-g…nment should suffer in the thoughts of many; (that it is not consistent with the peace of Civill-government) 'tis so farre from truth, that your Government and Church-way cannot stand with the peace of any forme of Civill government; no not with Democraticall government, much lesse Aristocraticall; or Monarchicall: but should it be but tolerated, much more established, as the government in a Kingdome and Nation; we should quickly find the contrary with a witnesse. In this Intervall of Church-government we feele (without a formall toleration of it) woefull effects opposite to the peace and good of civill government: And I desire to know from you, how you will proove it, and we shall be assured of it, (for we dare not take your bare word; (seeing that never yet any Kingdome, or Nation entertained your Church-way and government, there being yet no experiment of it, which of the Presbyteriall goverment hath been in Kingdomes and Common-wealths this fourescore yeares. And I must tell you that in New-England (which yet was farre from being a Kingdome and Nation) when they began to multiply and encrease, this government had like to have ruined them, both in Church and Common-wealth: and had they not enterposed, (and since doe daily) the power of the Magistrate, and many suitable principles to the Presbyteriall way, they had been ruined before this: and what yet will p. 30be the issue (unlesse they fall off more and more from their Independency) a little time will shew, and there are Letters from thence complaining of the confusions of necessity depending on that government.

We were not engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of Apolog.the Reformed Churches; And although we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in their writings and practis…, yet we could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and Government, their intentions being most spent (as also of our first Reformers in England) upon the Reformation in Doctrine, in which they had a most happy hand: And … had with many others observed, that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace, yet the practicall part, the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof, with difference from carnall and formall Christians, had not bee… advanced and held forth among them, as in this our Island, as themselves have generally acknowledged. We had the advantage of all that light which the conflicts of our own Divines (the good old Non-conformists) had struck forth in their times; And the draughts of Discipline which they had drawn; which we found not in all things, the very same with the practises of the Reformed Churches; And …hat they had written came much more commended to us, not only because they were our own, but because sealed with their manifold and bitter sufferings. We had likewise the fat…ll miscarriages and ship-wracks of the Separation (whom ye call Brownists) as Land-marks to forewarne us of th…se rocks and shelves they ran upon; which also did put us upon an inquirie into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions. Last of all, We had the recent and later example of the wayes and practises (and those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement, by all the fore-mentioned helps) of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation, almost to the number of another Nation, and among them some as holy and judicio… Divines as this Kingdome hath bred; whose sincerity in the… way hath been testified before all the world, and will be to all generations to come, by the greatest undertaking (but that of our father Abraham out of his own Countrey, and his s…ed after him) p. 31a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance, and and that by sea, into a wildernesse, meerely to worship God more purely, whither to allure them there could be no other invitement. And yet we still stood as vnengaged spectators, free to examine and consider what truth is to be found in and amongst all these, (all which we looke upon as Reformed Churches) and this nakedly according to the word; We resolved not to take up our Religion by or from any party, and yet to approve and hold fast whatsoever is good in any, though never so much differing from us, yea orposite unto us.]

It may be if you had been engaged by Education, or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches, that you had seen the order, and peace in some of the Reformed Churches; and had you conversed with them before you drunke in these opinions; you had never been transported with them in opposition to so many most worthy Churches: but to what end is this brought in, with all those particulars newly mentioned in the foregoing page; (We had, we had,) with that passage in the close of the last Section: We had nothing else to doe but simply and singly to consider how to worship God acceptably and so most according to his word? unlesse to insin…ate, and to cast an aspersion upon all others, they had so and so; and they were engaged by Education and otherwise: (a fine R…hetoricall way of casting blemishes upon all others, and freeing your selves) as much as in plaine English to say, That State-ends, politicall interests, preferments and worldly respects, ingagements by Education, and such like; with the streame of publike interest, might beare all others down, that they should not find out the truth: but you, alas! good men, so f…e from having any thing to doe in this world, or regarding worldly preferments, or hanging upon great persons, that you must needs find out the truth. But as you would bring Education in, and conversing with the Reformed Churches, as the by as to draw many to the Presbyteriall way; So let me tell you, though you were no… engaged any way to the Reformed Churches of Europe, yet you were many wayes to the Reformed Churches of New-England▪ and to some prime m…n in New-England, by a high admiration of them. One of you (more especially) was so e…aged in his high p. 32thoughts of one of the Ministers of New-England, (by whom also, I am sure he was first taken off the darke part) that he hath said, there was not such another man in the world againe: Which Minister, after his going into New-England, and falling into the Church-way there, and sending over Letters into England, about the New-way; presently after these Letters, began the falling off, and questioning Communion in our Churches: and before these Letters were sent into England, and the coppies of them communicated to divers; I never by discourse with any of you, nor from others, heard, that you were fallen into the Church-way. As for your consulting with reverence what the Reformed Churches held forth, both in their writings and practice, that could be no long time, (as appeares by what I have before prooved,), and besides, the short time you tooke to consult of Church-government and worship after your landing in Holland, there are many passages in this Apologie shew no great reverence towards them: and if a man should guesse of your reverence to the Churches of Scotland and France by many of your way both Ministers and people, what they speake of Presbyteriall government, and of those Churches; he would conclude it were very little: But these good words of the Reformed Churches, are to make way for a back-blow to those Churches, and to get some advantage still to your own way, namely, that you could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and government, their intentions being most spent upon the Reformation in Doctrine, &c. And why may not I suppose the same thing of M^r Goodwin M^r Nye, and the rest of you? that you may not see into all things about worship and government; for if they might not, then much more not you, they excelling you in piety, learning, sufferings, yeares: But suppose the Reformed Churches at first might not, yet considering that it is now, above fourescore yeares, since government and worship was purged (as well as Reformation in Doctrine, which you say was so well setled at first) and since, so many questions and controversies having risen about Worship and Government in their Churches and ours; as about Morelius, and about the Anabaptists and Brownists; and of late the Independents: and these differences having been debated in Synods and p. 33Assemblies, having heard and seen all they could say against Presbyteriall government, and what could be said for themselves; if either they or you, had the truth on your sides; what reason can you give, why they should not see into it upon so much enquity, study and dispute, the Reformed Churches being more free to entertaine truths, and change somewhat in their Discipline then you were in your first entertaining this New-way? For example, The Churches of France, living under persecution for their Religion, and the truth of God, if your way had any truth in it, it were all one for matter of persecution to receive yours as their own. As to that passage in this Section, concerning the good old nonconformists, that you say, We had the advantage of all that light which their conflicts struck forth in their times, &c, I answer, a great part of their light, as in M^r Cartwright, M^r Hildersham, &c. was against the Separatists and their practises (as their writings testifie,) as well as against the Diocesan Bishops and Ceremonies: and it had been happy for you and this Kingdome, that you had made better use of their light, and of their draughts of Discipline; the Reformation had been more easie, and the godly party more united, and the common enemy had never conceived such hopes and taken such heart as he does from your opinions. And what ever you say, it seemes, that a great part of what the good old non-conformists writ, came not much commended to you, (though your own, and for all their sufferings) because you follow it no better.

As to that passage, about the Separation (following the passage of the Non-conformists) It is well, you (acknowledge that the Separation had fatall miscarriages, and ship-wracks in their way: and it was well you tooke such notice of them, that you counted them as Land-markes to fore war…e you of those rocks and shelves they ran upon: and that thereupon you did enquire into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions: this is one of the best passages in your book: (As there are foure passages (among so many bad) that are good and usefull: One of the Parliament: A second of the Assembly of Divines: The third, this of the Separatists: The fourth, a Description of many of the Pro…torus, and people of this Kingdome:) But it had been better, you had, p. 34made so good a use of this observation and enquirie in Gods visibly witnessing from Heaven against the Separation, in giving them up to fearfull sins, in inflicting fearfull judgements, and leaving them to strange divisions (which your selves allude to in this passage) and you know was in the stories of Browne, Bolton, Barrow, Smith, Iohnsons, &c. so as to have kept further from their principles; and thereupon to have feared forsaking communion with our Churches, and setting up Separated Assemblies, and agreeing so much with them in most of the fundamentall and essentiall principles and practises, and not to have come so nigh to them against whom God witnessed by so many fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks, as only to resine and qualifie Brownisme, and to spinne it of a finer thred then the old Separatists did. But let me here put this Dilemma to you: Seeing the Separatists fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks, did put you upon an enquiry into the principles and causes of their divisions; upon the enquiry either you found out and discovered those principles, or you did not: If you did not discover them, why doe you insert these words here, and carry it so to make the Reader beleeve as if you had: and that you declined the rocks and shelves they ran upon: But if you did discover those principles of the Brownists, which were the causes of their divisions; why doe you passe them over in silence? In this Apologeticall Narration you make many a parenthesis, and addition to what you are speaking of, nothing so materiall nor proper to the points in hand (for example, In that passage immediately following these words, you lanch out into the high praises of New-England in many lines) as the laying downe those principles, which are the causes of the Brownists divisions, would have been: So that I much wonder (if you found them out) that you past them over in silence, for these might have been of great use to the Separatists themselves for the time to come, and of great use to have preserved others from Brownisme who are inclining that way, besides the benefit to your own party by looking upon them to prevent the like fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks in their way: so that I know not how this omission of yours can be excused. Besides, how came it to passe, that you who are the Authours of this Apologie, and your Churches made no better an use p. 35of all your enquiry and discovery? but in the time you were abroad to fall into the same fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks, namely the same divisions and sins; nay, greater and worse then some of the Separatists Churches did; (as ever I heard.) For proofe whereof I have been informed both by word of mouth and Letters from good hands of these following particulars.

In Holland there were but two Churches of your way and communion, one of which was at Rotterdam where M^r Bridge and M^r Sympson were members, and afterwards M^r Burroughs: which Church of Rotterdam (like the old Separatists at Amsterdam) split into two; M^r Sympson at first, and some others after him renting themselves from M^r Bridges Church to the great offence thereof; M^r Sympson setting up a new-Church, M^r White the Merchant and his wife only at first joyning with him: M^r Sympsons Church being founded by a woman, (M^r Bridge himselfe heretofore telling me so, and calling M^rs White the Foundresse of that Church.) And after this great rent, and setting up a Church against a Church under M^r Bridges nose, M^r Ward, M^r Bridges colleague, and old friend at Norwich was deposed from his Ministery and office, for frivolous matters and some differences by M^r Bridges Church: And here if I should but relate all the maine passages that fell out between these Ministers and their Churches, after this Renting and Deposition within the space of a yeare following, namely the Letters sent into England, each for themselves, and against each other; all the stories told of one another; and all the bitternesses and revilings between the Churches of M^r Bridge and M^r Sympsons; with the desperate scandalls and reproaches cast out (especially upon M^r Bridge;) the Readers eares would tingle, and I should be too long; especially, because I must touch upon this string againe when I come to that story related in the Apologie, page 16. The other Church was first at Viana, then at Arnhim, of which M^r Goodwin and M^r Nye were Teachers, concerning which Church, if I should but relate all the strange conceits and opinions held, and practised in that Church, (besides some preach't) even before M^r Goodwins and M^r Nye's comming back to England, with all the differences and divisions that fell out; I should make this answer too large: I will for the p. 36present relate these few passages, reserving the rest till I put out a… Rejoinder upon their Reply to this Answer. Anointing the sick▪ with oyle was held in that Church of Arnhim, as a standing ordinance for Church members, (for others had no right to that ordinance) as laying on of hands was a standing ordinance for Church Officers: There was a writing amongst them in many hands, prooving it to be so, and there were some cases propounded, with what oyle the sicke members of the Church were to▪ be anointed, and there was a resolution of the case, namely with Olive oyle. A copy of this writing some Ministers of the Assembly have perused, and one of them hath it amongst his papers in the Countrey. M^r Goodwin▪ did anoint a Gentlewoman (whose name I conceale) when she was sick, and she recovered after it (they say.) A Gentleman of note in that Church, (one of those two so much commended in the twentieth page of this book, for wisedome and piety,) did propound in the Church, that singing of Hymnes was an ordinance, (which is that any person of the Congregation exercising their own gifts, should bring a… Hymne and sing it in the Congregation, all the rest being silent and giving audience;) now upon the propounding of this, another Gentleman did oppose it, (as not judging it an ordinance:) to whom the former Gentleman replied, that he destroyed in opposing this, what he had built up: whereupon words passing between them, a difference grew between these two Gentlemen; and this second Gentleman was complained of to the Church by the first: and upon hearing the whole businesse, and all words that past between them, this second Gentleman was censured by the Church, and M^r Nye charged sin upon him: (that was the phrase) in many particulars, and still at the end of every charge M^r Nye repeated, This wis your sin: After, this censure so solemnly done, the Gentleman censured, brings in Accusations against M^r Nye in severall Artiles, charging him with pride, want of charity, &c▪ in the manner of the censure; And this being brought before the Church, continued in debate about halfe a yeare, three, or foure dayes in a weeke, and sometimes more before all the Congregation: divers, of the members having callings to follow, they desired to have leave to be absent: M^r Goodwin of… profest publikely upon these p. 37differences, if this were their Church-fellowship he would lay downe his Eldership; and nothing was more commonly spoke among the members, then that certainely for matter of Discipline, they were not in the right way, for that there was no way of bringing things to an end: At last, after more then halfe a yeares debate, not being able to bring these differences to an end, and being to come into England, they had their last meeting about it, to agree not to publish it abroad when they came into England, hoping that God would give some opportunity when they came into England to make an end of it, which whether it be ended yet. I doubt much, because of some speeches reported to me spoken by one of these persons concerning the other two: Now if this Church of Arnhim, consisting of Ministers, moderate and wise, standing upon their credits and reputations, and of prime Gentlemen, and pick't Christians, being in exile, and leaving all for their consciences (as they say) doe yet run into such strange conceits, and breake among themselves thus, what can be expected of Independent Churches here, that may consist of raw and fiery spirited men, and of the vulgar and all kind of spirits?

But before I leave this passage of yours concerning the Separation, pray let me aske you the reason of this Parenthesis, and to whom you speake it, (whom ye call Brownists?) and why could you not have writ, who are commmonly called Brownists? Is it not to both the Houses of Parliament to whom this Apologie is presented, and to whom you appeale? your discourse being carried as spoken to them; and does not this phrase of speech carry with it a secret checke of the Houses for calling the Separatists Brownists, calling them so, as you would not call them? But who are you, that you may not speake (for so much as concernes this) in the language of both Houses? if both Houses call them Brownists, Why may not you Five terme them so? but, we may guesse the Reason, M^r Browne and your Principles are too nigh a kinde, and you feared, lest you might be called so: but let me tell you, though the Reformed Churches may not be called disgracefully Calvinians, (as the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland have well Page 9.observed in their late book) yet the Separatists, and all Sectaries, may fitly be termed from the Authours, and so the Separatists, p. 38justly called Brownists, because as he was one of the first Leaders in that way; so he was the first that digested that way into forme and method, and writ so for it: and the first that visibly and openly drew so many out of this Kingdome beyond the Seas: and therefore both Houses of Parliament, and others too, may truly terme those who goe in Brownes-way, Brownists.

As for that last passage in this Section, that last of all, We had the recent and la…er example of the wayes and practises of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation, &c. which (without so many words) you might have said New-England; but that on purpose you would take an occasion of extolling them to the Heavens, and so render both your selves and way in them more glorious both to the Parliament and people into whose hands your Apologie should come. Sure, you might more truly and ingeniously have put them in the first place, and have writ, First of all, We had the recent and later example of New-England; which wrought (to my knowledge) with some of you very much: and that the purposes and intentions of some of you, were first for New-England (as you may remember some of you told me.) One of you marrying a wife in reference to your going to New-England; and how farre he was hindered, or altered by her death, he knowes. Another of you, having sent over goods before, (and in particular) books, where he meant to follow after. (I have a very bad memory if these things be not so.) A third, (namely, M^r Simpson) when he desired his dismission from that Church at Rotterdam, he alleadged that as a cause, that he was intended for New-England: but I must examine the Encomium, made by you here, of New-England, and see whether to make it hold, the words must not have the allowance of that figure in Rhetorick called Hyperbole: the first part of the praise is, Multitudes of godly men of our own Nation, almost to the number of another Nation. Are the godly men in New-England so many in number, that they are almost the number of another Nation, that they doe almost make such another Nation as England? then New-England hath more godly persons in it then old England; for the multitudes of godly persons amongst us, are not almost so many here, as to make another Nation: but it will be found, that granting, all the men in p. 39New-England were godly (which yet you dare not affirme) seeing multitudes live there without the Church, who are not accounted visible Saints) yet what are they to so many people as are in England? reckon up all the persons in New-England, good and bad, and list them, and they will be found not to come almost to the number of the Nation that lives in London; nay, hardly to come to the twentieth part there: What are they then in New-England to this whole Kingdome? and then doe but substract all that are not of their Church, and it is evident your affection is better to New-England then your Arithmeticke, and in this particular, that Proverbe of Almost must help you: But shall I give you the reason of this stretching here? 'Tis to possesse the Parliament and Kingdome what a great party you have for your Church-way, Almost another Nation in New-England, and Almost another Nation of your way in old England, which may serve to ballance your opposite party of Presbytery in England and Scotland; and therefore the Parliament shall doe well to take notice of your Numbers, to grant you a Toleration (at least) of your Church-way, lest you being such multitudes should, &c. I could tell stories, what some of your way have spoken, if they might not have their way; but I shall spare them now. The second part of your praise of New-England is, And among them some as holy and judicious Divines as this Kingdome hath bred: That there are holy and good Divines among them, whom I truly love and honour, I acknowledge: but I judge this too transcendent a phrase, and more then befits the words of sobernesse. Some as holy and judicious as this Kingdome hath bred: It had been an expression high enough to say, as holy and judicious Divines as any you now know in this Kingdome; but to say as this Kingdome hath bred; how know you that? and how can you affirm it? You were not acquainted with many who lived before (being all young men, to speake of) so that there might be (before your times) men more judicious and holy: and if we may judge by the works of some men, and by their lives written, and by the reports from good hands of the godly, ancient Ministers, there were men, more judicious and learned, then any now in New England, as Whitaker, Reynolds, Brightman, and others; and more holy, as M^r Greenham, M^r Banes, old p. 40M^r. Dod, &c. But for the holy and judicious Divines of New England there are not above three or foure at most were ever accounted so eminent, (I might say but two) and yet the present age hath Divines in England to compare with them, both for learning, judiciousnesse and piety: so as you needed not to have gone backe to the ages past. Take the prime man of them all in new England, and yet, he is not to be accounted as judicious and learned as ever any this kingdome bred: Doctor Whitakers never Me…ch. Adam. vita Whitak. pag. 177.held any opinion that was accounted erroneous; nor any private peculiar opinion, but what was commonly held in the Church of God (as it is reported in his life) but the most eminent Minister in New-England (though he be an excellent and worthy man) hath had his errours; and I referre you for proofe to his Discourse about clearing the Doctrine of Reprobation (which is in some of your hands) with his being deceived (for a time) in the businesse of M▪ Wheelwright, and Mistris Hutchinson, and some of those opinions about Sanctification evidencing Justification: and to some other manuscripts and printed things about the Church-way, where there are many things of wit and fancie more then of deep judgement.