Full Answer to Apologetical Narration, Text (2 of 8)

Full Answer to Apologetical Narration · Text (2 of 8)

p. 40The third part of your praise, rises so high, as 'tis hardly to be paralel'd: The sinceritie of them of New-England in their way restisi'd before all the world, and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking (but that of our father Abraham out of his owne Country, and his seed after him) a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance, and that by sea into a wildernesse, &c. Certainly some Independents then must write their Chronicle, or else their sincerity will not be so testified to all the world, neither will they be so famous to all succeeding generations: It is well, that in this high praise of them who went to New-England, there was some exception, and that Abraham their father was excepted: (how ever in the instance you presently give of their undertaking) you secretly preferre the men of New-England before Abraham: for Abraham went by land, and not by sea; and not many thousand miles distance, nor into a wildernesse: But I am not satisfied in the truth of this undertaking for New-England, but am of the mind, there both have been and are, p. 41greater undertakings, (besides Abraham and his seed after him,) namely, that of Moses and Aaron, carrying the people out of Egypt, and leading them through the wildernesse to Canaan; of Nehemiah and Zerubbabel in building of the Temple: besides, the present undertaking of the Parliament for Reformation in Church-government and worship, against the Papists, Prelates and Malignants, (which you had seen when you writ this Apologie) was farre greater, and is testified before the world, and will be to all generations to come, farre beyond that of New-England: 'Tis strange to me, you should thus forget your selves to make the undertaking of New-England to be the greatest that ever was in the world but that of Abrahams: But thus partiall, we see, good men are apt to be for their own party; and even starke blind in their own cause. And as I am no whit satisfied in this third particular of your praise of New-England; so nor in the truth of the thing that you affirme they went to New-England for, namely, meerely to worship God more purely, whether to allure them there could be no other invitement. For that which was first held out and most spoken of in the beginning of that Plantation in New-England, was the hopes of converting the poore Indians; There were some Ministers of note and others who dealt first in that businesse and were prime actors in it, that propounded that, and really intended it, as M^r White of Dorchester, M^r Humphreys, (and I am forgetfull, if I have not read some things printed to that purpose,) As for the worshipping God more purely, (if your words could bare that sense, or you understood them of being freed of the Ceremonies, and of Episcopall government,) that was some part of the designe and ayme, (though not meerely that,) but if by worshipping God more purely be meant, the worshipping God in the Church-way, and the Church-government pleaded for in this Apology, it was not in the thoughts of them who were the first movers in it, or of the Ministers who were sent over in the beginning, (as is apparent by a Letter of M^r Cottons sent to M^r Skelton a Minister) upon his falling into the Church-way after he came over, wherein M^r Cotton writes to him, that he went from England of another judgement, and tells him how this came about, namely from them of New-Plymouth, who were p. 42M^r Robinsons people; and further unto many who went over to New-England, after the first and second yeare, there were other invitements, then meerely worshipping God more purely, some of them concluding peremptorily this Kingdome would be destroyed, and there would be a hiding place, as also the great commendations of the Countrey and Land for subsistence, (many being low in their estates here,) led many into a fooles parad…ce, who finding all things so contrary to the high reports given out, and their expectations, have had leisure enough to repent since; And some of you, (who to my knowledge intended for New-England) yet when you came to understand better, what a hard Countrey it was, would not be of the number of them, whose sincerity should be testified before all the world, and unto all generations to come, by going to New-England to worship God more purely, when to allure you thither, there was no other invitement. And now after all this large narration of your falling off from the dark part, and of your inquiring into the light part, and the story of your impartial looking upon the word of Christ, and of your consulting with reformed Churches, and looking upon the old Non-conformists, and observing the Separatists, together with the examples of New-England, you plainely come in the close of this Section, to declare that, for which all this was written, namely, to possesse the Reader of your freedome and un-ingagement, notwithstanding all this, to take that way, or every thing in each way, that was truth, whereas you would insinuate, that other men who differ from you, were not so free, nor un-engaged; But how likely this is, and how un-ingaged and free you were, I desire the Reader to remember what presumption (if not proofes,) I have already brought to proove the contrary.

As for those two Parenthesis brought in of the way of New-England, namely, those improved to a better Edition, and greater refinement by all the fore-montioned helps, and that, all which we looke upon as reformed Churches: To the first of these, I say, 1. It is a high confidence, and presumption, to judge the wayes and practises of a few in New-England, to be better, and more refined, then of all the reformed Churches in Christendome. 2. What ever the Edition, and refinement of New-England is, they made little use of all the forementioned helps, named by you, to attaine p. 43unto it, few of them consulted with reverence the reformed Churches, &c. But the maine ground of their improvement, to this new Edition and great refinement, (as you terme it,) was their consultation with them of New-Plymouth, as appeares both by M^r Cottons Letter, and by other relations. To the second, I can Mr Ra…b. Narration of Ch. courses, p. 1. The rest of the Churches in New-England came at first to them in Plimouth to crave their direction in Ch. courses and made them their patterne.judge no other reason of inserting it here, nor of calling the way of New-England, in that first Parenthesis, a better Edition, and greater refinement, then of any of the reformed Churches, but onelyonly, that we may understand, in what sense you took that part of the Covenant, to be brought to agreement with the best reformed Churches, that you meant and accounted New-England, the best reformed Churches, and so satisfie your consciences in taking that branch of the Covenant; whereas we looke upon the reformed Churches, those of France, Scotland, Holland &c. who are known to us, by their confessions, and I never knew till this Apologie came forth, that ever, the Churches of New-England were stiled the reformed Churches, as the Brownists and Separatists never yet were, unto whom yet the Parenthesis relates as well as to any of the other Churches.

And for our own Congregations, we meane of England (in Apolog.which through the grace of Christ we were converted, and exercised our Ministeries long, to the conversion of many others) we have this sincere profession to make before God and all the world, that all that conscience of the defilements, we conceived to cleave to the true worship of God in them, or of the unwarranted power in Church Governours exercised therein, did never work in any of us any other thought, much lesse opinion, but that multitudes of the Assemblies and Parochiall Congregations thereof were the true Churches and body of Christ, and the Ministery thereof a true Ministery. Much lesse did it ever enter into our hearts to judge them Antichristian; we saw and cannot but see that by the same reason the Churches abroad in Scotland, Holland, &c. (though more reformed) yet for their mixture must be in like manner judged no Churches also, which to imagine or conceive, is and hath ever been an horrour to our thoughts. Yea we alwayes have professed, and that in these times when the Church of England were the most, either actually over spread with defilements, p. 44or in the greatest danger thereof, and when our selves had least, yea no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own Land againe in peace and safety to our persons; that we both d…d and would hold a Communion with them as the Churches of Christ. And besides this profession, as a reall testimony thereof, some of us after we, actually, were in this way of communion, baptized our children in Parishionall Congregations, and (as we had occasion) did offer to receive into the Communion of the Lords Supper with us, some (whom we knew godly that came to visit us when we were in our exile) upon that relation, fellowship and commembership they held in their Parish Churches in England, they professing themselves to be members thereof, and belonging thereunto. What we have since our returne publikely and avowedly mad… declarations of to this purpose, many hundreds can witnesse, and some of our brethren in their printed bookes candidly doe testifie for us.]

In this Section you come to declare your judgements concerning the Congregations of England and the Ministery of them, wherein you apologize for your selves in regard of misapprehensions you might lye under, in respect of your judgements concerning them: For what good you speake of them now, and for owning them as your own, in which you were converted, and in which you converted many others, I thanke you; But for the sincere profession you make before God and all the world, that all that conscience of the defilements you conceive to cleave to the true worship of God in them, or of the unwarranted power in Church Governours exercised therein, did never work in any of you, any other thought much lesse opinion, but that multitudes of the Assemblies and Parochiall Congregations thereof were the true Churches and body of Christ, and the Ministery thereof a true Ministery: much lesse did it ever enter into your hearts to judge them Antichristian. You must pardon me, if I believe not this profession, Nay, I must tell some of you, that if Letters and other Manuscripts which goe out under some of your names, and are in my hands be yours, (as I have great reason to believe they are,) I shall prove this sincere profession of yours, to be insincere, and shall evidence the contrary to what you professe before God and the world, namely, that the corruptions, which did cleave to our p. 45worship, and the unwarranted power, did not only work thoughts and opinions in you, that our Churches and Ministers were not true, but that you exprest so much and acted in the vertue of it, nay even to judge them Antichristian; There are some passages in one Letter (more especially amongst others,) written by M^r Bridge to his loving friends in Norwich, M^r Henry King, M^r Toft, M^r Smith, M^r Rayner, Mr. Mapp, the substance of which Letter to Letter.them is, Not to be content with the ordinance of hearing, but to looke out after the plat-forme of Government, left by Christ and his Apostles, by Elders, Pastours, Teachers, Deacons and Widdowes, and to consider, that every Church hath the power within it selfe, and is not subject to one Officer, or to another Congregation, but to the whole body, and to that, whereof the member is a part, (And then M^r Bridge falls upon Episcopall government, under which these friends of his lived, as Antichristian,) and that their Episcopall government under which they lived, was Papall and Romish, and then brings in these words; And will you then submit unto it, what becomes of them, that doe worship the beast, and what of them, that receive his marke, Rev, 13. 8. Rev. 149, 10. It is a worshipping, it is a receiving a marke to practise any Canon, constitution or order that is framed or injoyned by that government: What? you have no Elders, Pastors, &c. What? you sit, stand, kneele at the command of that government; and in the Postscript of this Letter, he adds these words; paying a Pepper-corne may acknowledge a Land-lord, and the standing up at the Creed may acknowledge the government. Now I demand of M^r Bridge and the other Apologists, what multitudes of the Assemblies and parochiall Congregations were there in England, that were wholly exempt from that Government? or whether there was any that did refuse wholy, all the Orders, injoyned by that Government? and if so, whether then in M^r Bridges opinion, and in his letters all our Congregations and M…nisters, were not Antichristian, in worshipping the Beast, and receiving his marke, let all the world, and his owne conscience judge? And for further proofe, unto one of M^r Bridges letters were seven Questions annexed and propounded, concerning the Ministerie, worship, and constitution p. 46of the Church Assemblies in England, the usuall questions the Brownists make: I have also the copie of a letter written from Mr Simpson to a man of note in London (whose name out of respect to him, I conceale) the substance of which letter is, to have him consider, Whether he may live without all the Ordinances, if they be any where to be had, or live in danger of daily defilement, and there is one thing, which together with these, he desires him to thinke upon, namely, what that state and condition is, wherein we should injoy the Ordinances, we should call nothing the meanes of salvation or Ordinances, but what God hath appointed to his Church. A Church is Christs bodie, it consists of holy members, in show at least, joyned together to Christ, as to a Head, and as there is a bond whereby we are invisibly joyned, so is there a bond to him visibly. Ceremonies are nothing in regard of this, they make things accidentally evill, according as this is, things are, or are not ordinances, and meanes of salvation. Baptisme is no baptisme, unlesse it be administered by a Minister: A Minister is no Minister, unlesse cal'd by the Church, and so I might speake of other things. By all which it will appeare that M^r Simpson had thoughts, and doubts, and would have others have such thoughts too, that we have neither Churches, nor Ordinances, nor Ministers, according to his definition of a Church, and to the matter contained in his letter, and in the close of his letter though he writes,

I meddle not with judging of these things with you, but propound you a rule, or way to judge of things by; I dare not say, your Congregations are not Churches, but desire you to looke that they be so, for your owne peace, yet it is evident by what he sayes in his letter, that he accounts, neither our Churches, nor our Ministers true, and would stumble him in these things to whom he wrote. I have a manuscript entituled, a Treatise of the Church, going under the name of one of these Apologists, and a godly Minister from whose hands I had it, assured it me it was his. In which Treatise there is an answer to this question; But suppose Saints live in a Nation, wherein there is some kind of a Church constituted already, may they gather themselves into a Church? The Answer is as followes. 1. If you suppose that there are p. 47Churches in England, yet such as never were truly members of any of them, are free to begin, and gather themselves into a Church, and to be of the best Institution they can, this libertie we under the Gospel have, which the Jewes had not. 2. Although they are Churches, yet we …re not to continue in them, and not remaine from them. 1. In that they are Churches defective in some Ordinances, as namely, Prophecying, mutuall admonition, excommunication. 2. They are Churches defiled in our judgements, in which communicating, we cannot but be defiled now though they be Churches, as a leprous man was a man, yet being defiled, we cannot communi…ate with them, and so in regard of our use, now no Churches; and in the same page it is added, we may be kept from joyning with the true Church, and yet not withdraw from these, as no Churches, but as no Churches of use to us. Now I appeale to the Reader, what he can judge of your profession in the sixt page, and of these passages in your letters and manuscripts; and as some of your hands are contrary to this profession, so your workes are contrary to it; in forsaking the communion of our Churches and ministerie, and in drawing others away, and in writing to many to come to you, and in setting up Churches: and pray deale ingeniously once in your Reply; seeing you ever held, and doe now much more; that our Assemblies are true Churches, and our Ministers true Ministers; how you can satisfie your owne consciences and us, from any Scripture ground, either of precept or example to separate from us? I am assured you cannot produce any ground, and that all Scripture instances, whether in examples or precepts will never come up to your practise and case: But (Brethren) why will you in a Narration that should be plaine (that all who …unne may reade it) deale thus fallaciously, amuse the Reader with your profession of our Churches and Ministerie, in such generals, and never declare what you hold particularly of them? Few Readers, unlesse some, who have throughly studied your principles and distinctions, being never the wiser for your profession: I must therefore of necessity English your words, and tell the meaning of all this: That is, neither the Church or Churches of England; nor the Ministery thereof, as they are in their frame and constitution, according to p. 48the Lawes; and as they are in their visible order, are true Churches or true Ministerie: But now, so farre, as in many of our Parochiall Congregations, there is something common with what you hold about a Church and Ministerie: so farre true, and not Antichristian. As for example, you hold, that in some Congregations, we have many visible Saints, and in some Parishes, Ministers chosen by the people, which Ministers preach and pray according to your way; but for what we else practise in our making of Ministers, in our formes of prescribed prayers, &c. So no true Churches nor Ministerie. And that this is your meaning will appeare by what followes. 1. Letters and speeches of some of your way, who write not so warily (as you) show so much. M^r Batchelour a member of your Church-way, in printed letters of his, dated from Rotterdam, September the 4^th 1641. both to Ministers here in London, and to Citizens, speakes thus in reference to you; And whereas it is beleeved, they are friends to separation, this I can assure you, that they denie not the Churches in England, such as M. Calamies and M. Goodwins in Coleman-street, to be true Churches. And why M. Goodwins, and M. Calamies; but because they were chosen by the Congregations, and there are many visible Saints in those Congregations; and so others of your way, having been reasoned with, how according to your principles, That there is no Nationall visible Church under the new Testament, no visible Church but a particular Congregation, and that the Essence of Ministers calling is Election by the people, and that the forme of a Church is a particular Covenant, with other things of this Nature: And therefore considering the Church of England is Nationall, and hath no such Covenant, nor such a way of Ministerie, how they could hold we had true Churches and true Ministers: Their Answer hath been, You have Implicite Churches, and Implicite Ministers. But if you will say, you understand your words in this Section (not as M. Batchelour nor as others of your way) but plainly, as Divines usually take Churches and Ministerie; then I desire you to reconcile together all your definitions and descriptions of true visible Churches, and true Ministers, with our Church and Ministery of England: And for further satisfaction in this point, I desire you in your reply to this Answer, p. 49candidly, and clearely to expresse your selves, when you fell to your Church-way, and were to be taken for Ministers in those Churches; whether you held your selves, or were look'd upon by your Churches, as true Ministers by vertue of your calling in England? Or whether (rather) you were not lookt upon only as gifted men, and did not some of you (at least) renounce and disclaime your calling in England, and were made Ministers a new by the Church consisting only of people, or lay-Elders at the best, without Ministers? M. Williams in his Answer to M. Cottons letter, M^r Cottons letter examined and answered, pag. 44. Mr Cotton himselfe and other most eminent Ministers in N…w-England had freely confessed that notwithstanding their former profession of Ministerie in old England, yet in New-England till they received a particular calling from a particular Church, that they were but private Christians. Apolog. Robin. p. 10, 11. &c. 12. de Eccl. Angl.openly justifies, they held and practised so in New-England: Now your principles agreeing so with theirs, and some Stories related to me of some of you, makes me doubt the same of you. As for that reason you give why you never held our Churches no true Churches, namely, your seeing, that if you had accounted our Churches no true Churches; that by the same reason, the Churches abroad in Scotland, Holland, &c. yet for their mixture must in like manner be judged no Churches also; I answer, 'tis no concluding Argument: M. Robinson (who was quick-sighted, and lived in Holland long) and seeing their mixture, yet acknowledges those Churches true, but denies ours to be true upon other grounds besides the mixture, and 'tis evident, your reason is insufficient, for if your description of a visible Church were only upon difference in the point of mixture, and your grounds of separation only upon mixt communion, then your Reason had some weight in it; but you know your exceptions were many against our Churches, which lay not against the Reformed Churches: but it is strange to me, if you were so good at consequences, that you saw and could not but see when there was no necessitie of seeing; you could not see the necessarie consequences of your principles about a Church and Ministerie; nay not see, even your contradictions. For let a man but take your owne Positions and Assertions concerning a true visible Church, and the true calling of Ministers, and lay together your quarrelling with us, and leaving us upon those grounds, because we have no such Churches and Ministers; and ye… to affirme, that multitudes of our Parochiall Churches are true Churches. And certainly, however you (who are Schollars) might be such good Logicians to make such distinctions to salve all (as you p. 50conceited) yet your people could not, but they from your principles and positions about Church, Ministerie, Worship and Government, have judged us no true Churches, nor true Ministers; but have wondred at this sincere profession of yours before God and the world concerning our Churches and Ministers, saying, they understood you otherwise, and they were much deceived if you held not otherwise at first (though now you expresse your selves after this manner) And I can hardly beleeve had you made alwaies and frequently such professions of our Churches and Ministers, and of keeping communion with them, as the Churches of Christ, that ever so many had fallen off to your way. But thus 'tis in all the way of errours, men by sits will expresse things as other men do who are Orthodox (but yet in a sence of their own) to avoid exceptions, and that they may be thought to hold as others do, therby the more to draw and work some men off to their way, when yet in the common sense and understanding of the points they hold otherwise. As the Socinians say they hold Christ God, and call him so, but in a sence of their own, and yet denie it in the Orthodox sense: So Pelagians and Arminians will extoll the grace of God, and that a man can doe nothing without it, and yet in that sence wherein the controversie is, they set up free-will, above the grace of God; And so Antinomians will say, they doe not denie the law of God; and yet in the sense controverted, are flat against it. And so the Papists will say, they hold and looke to be saved by Christ, as well as any Protestant (though it's well knowne there is a great difference betweene them, in the point of Justification:) So you and many of your way, in a sense of your owne, give us good words, and say, we have true Churches and true Ministerie; and yet in the sense of the controversie, you teach flat contrary; (as doth appeare both by printed Tract…tes, and by manuscripts and many practises.) As to that Profession in this Section, That in the times, when the Churches of England, were most either actually overspread with defilements; or in the greatest danger therof, that we both did, and would bold a communion with them as the Churches of Christ: I answer, what doe I heare words, when I see deeds so contrary? How can I beleeve this profession, that ye would hold communion with the Churches of England, as the Churches of p. 51Christ, under their greatest defilements, when as, you have never held communion with any of them in the time of their greatest reformation and puritie? In this three yeares last, since your comming over, wherein we have been so free from pollution in worship, and since that in so many Churches in London, there hath bin the totall laying aside of prescribed formes of prayer; and that great care, to keepe away both ignorant and prophane persons: Which of you five have received the Lords Supper in any of these true Churches and bodies of Christ? I never could learne, that any of you five nor any of the members of your Churches have communicated with us. I can tell you of the adding to your Church Assemblies, great numbers since and of your receiving the Lords Supper at night in private houses, and how some of you, who have not Churches here in London, goe to separated Churches to partake in the Lords Supper. But (Brethren) why doe you deale thus and write thus, to make men beleeve as if you held great communion with our Churches now, who would have held it with them in such bad times? I desire you to speake plaine English, and not to speake after this manner (as you doe too often in this Apologie) and to interpret to us in your Reply to this Answer, what you meane by both Did and Would hold communion with the Churches of England as the Churches of Christ? I know no communion you did hold, or doe with us now (though so reformed.) And if you do and will, what means that wall of partition between us your new constituted Churches? As for th… …aring of Sermons sometimes in our Churches, and preachi…g in our Congregations, I doubt whether you hold that a keeping communion with our Churches and Ministers; but rather, preach as gifted men; and heare ours as gifted men, and how ever (**Robins. Apol. cap. 12. p 78. Propria, inqu…, & peculiaria in quibus verbi auditionem simpliciter no… annumero: …pote inqua non intercedit inter docentem & discentem communio spirituali…, sive Eccl. sive personalis, nisi ex unione prae via Ecclesiastica aut personall. if M. Robinson and some of your way may be beleeved) they hold hearing of the Word no Act of Communion, nor no proper nor peculiar thing of the Church: And that you are of the same judgement, I have great reason both from your principles and practise to thinke so. As for that reall testimonie (besides your profession) That some of us after we actually were in this way of communion, baptized our children in Parishionall Congregations; whereby you would inferre, you held a communion with our Congations p. 52as the Churches of Christ: I answer, this is no reall testimony thereof, because it cannot be understood but in the sense before opened, of Churches and Ministery: And besides, if M^r Sympson were one of this Some, who baptized his children in Parishionall Congregations, 'tis so inconsistent with what he writ in the Letter before quoted of the Church and baptisme; that I know not how to reconcile these together: And the truth is, many of your practises are oft times so in-coherent with some of your principles of Church-fellowship, (as for instance) Pastors are necessary Officers in your Churches, and yet according to your practises your Churches are many yeares without them, that a man cannot tell when he hath a reall testimony what you hold, or how long you have held it. And as for that other reall testimony, as you had occasion, offering to receive, some of ours whom ye knew godly that came to visit you when you were in exile, upon that relation, fellowship and com-membership they held in their Parishchurches in England. 1. 'Tis no reall testimony, because you o…red it, but doe not say you performed it. 2. If you had actually performed it, it is no such reall testimony of the truth of our Churches and ministery, but of your own rather; into the communion whereof they were received. 3. Still, their admission was founded upon that distinction of Implicit Churches, as appeares by your following words. For you would admit them upon such termes, as you would gaine a principle of your own by them; get more by it, then communion with you was worth, namely, that such who were known to be godly, might not come to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, unlesse they were members of some particular Congregation, and so, in their partaking Robins Catechis. Quest. May all the faithfull partake in the Sacraments? Ans. No, except they be also added to some particular Congregation.with you, they must yeeld, that grand Brownisticall principle, the foundation of other errors among the Separatists, namely, that Sacraments belong not to visible believers but as they are members of some particular Congregation. As also you put them upon a practice and order, never required, by example or precept in the Scriptures. And let me intreat you, in your reply you give to this answer, to give me a Scripture, to prove that all men who come to the Lords Supper must professe their member-ship, and their retaining to such a particular Congregation: I professe p. 53my selfe of another judgement, and cast the glove to any of you five, or to you all; That it is lawfull for the Ministers of Christ to receive such whom they know to be godly, to the Lords Supper, though they be not members of a particular Church, and to receive those who are members without any professing themselves to be so: Suppose, some godly Merchants or Marriners, who all their dayes travell, and never stay long in any one place, yet in all places where they come, desire to joyne in the ordinances, ought not such to be received? The standing rule of comming to the Lords Supper will be found to be faith and godlinesse shown forth, rather then the formality of membership: But deale ingeniously, doe you tell us here, all that you required of the godly, that came to visit you, or doe you tell us only a part? which question, I the rather propound, because, as you doe relate in other parts of this Narration, (as in the eighth page,) so I find M^r Batchelour (one of you,) writing from Rotterdam of your Churches, that they will not keepe back the Sacrament from any of the godly of such Churches in England, as M^r Goodwins and M^r Calamyes are, (alwayes provided that their own Pastours doe consent unto it.) Now the godly who are gone into Holland, and especially to New-England, not finding any such word in Scripture, of bringing a ticket from their Ministers, and so comming into those Countreyes without it, may be long kept from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, till they either goe into England, and fetch it, or till they send for it over, and have a returne back of the consent of their own Pastors, (which may be, was the reason, that though you offered to receive into the Communion of the Lords Supper some godly that came to visit you in your exile, yet for want of bringing their Pastors consent unto it, returned into England without partaking in the Lords Supper with you,) Which (by the way) will be a good warning for all that henceforth goe over into Holland or New-England, to carry their Ministers consents over with them, least otherwise they be not admitted to the Lords Supper; and that you doe not deale plainely with us, in this relation of admitting the godly in the Parish Churches of England, into the Communion of the Lords Supper with you, but there is some reservation and evasion; I much doubt, because the known p. 54godly in the Parish-church of Coleman-street (which amongst Parish-churches, is one of your true Churches in England) cannot be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper by vertue of their relation of membership they hold in the Parish-church never since their Pastor fell into your Church-way; As for your publike and avowed declarations to this purpose, which many hundreds can witnesse, I never heard of any of them in any publike meetings; though I have been in many, nor in any Sermons you have preacht, though I have heard of many things you preacht (which you are like to heare of in this Answer,) But if I may speake what I have heard, there hath been a Narrative promised from you, of what you hold, (which many Ministers also can witnesse,) but was never performed by you till this day; As to that, in the close of this Section, that some of your brethren, in their printed books doe candidly testifie for you, It is but one of them, not some unlesse you take in M^r Herles Imprimatur to your Apologie, who I doubt not before this time, by what he hath heard from some of his bretheren of the Assembly, and seen in that book intituled Reformation of Church-government in Scotland, with the contents of the Letters from some Churches beyond the seas, besides the light this Answer will give, will see easily, how by your courting of him, he was surprized: And it is no wonder that M^r Herle, M^r Channell, with some other men of worth (having lived somewhat remote, and having not been much conversant with you and your distinctions,) might be at first mistaken with such good words, and solemne professions.

And as we alwayes held this respect unto our own Churches in this Kingdome, so we received and were entertained with the Apolog.like from those reformed Churches abroad, among whom we were cast to live, wee both mutually gave and received the right hand of fellowship, which they on their parts abundantly manifested by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches, and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects (which they tollerate but not owne) and all the assemblies of them (which yet now we are here some would needs ranke us with) granting to some of us their own Churches, or publike places for worship, to assemble in, where p. 55themselves met, for the worship of God, at differing houres the same day. As likewise the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto our meetings: Which we mention, because it is amongst them made the great signall of difference between their own allowed Churches, and all other assemblies, unto whom it is strictly prohibited and forbidden, as Guiciardine hath long since observed: And others of us found such acceptance with them, that in testimony thereof they allowed a full and liberall maintenance annually for our Ministers, yea and constantly also wine for our Communions. And then we againe on our parts, not only held all brotherly correspondencie with their Divines, but received also some of the members of their Churches (who desired to communicate with us) unto communion in the Sacraments and other ordinances, by vertue of their relation of membership retained in those Churches.

In the last Section, I prooved, both by Letters and many other presumptions, you alwayes held not that respect to the Church of England you seeme to professe in that Section▪ if now at last, you be growne more sober and wise, upon reviewing your principles, I am glad of it, non est pudor ad meliora transire; For this Section, your being received and entertained with the like respect from those Reformed Churches abroad, and your mutually giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship. If I may beleeve reports and Letters (and those not light, but from Ministers and good people;) I have been by word of mouth told, and I have in writing from thence, grounds to question the truth of this Narration. A godly Minister out of Holland in answer to some questions sent about the truth of your Apologie, writes thus to this present Section: And here I cannot but adde this; that whereas the Apologeticall Narration mentions these things as an argument Letter out of Holland.of the incouragements they had in these parts, and their good concurrence with the Churches here, it hath been affirmed to me from very good testimony, that however the Magistrates at Rotterdam for politick ends, as to gather company to them which is for the profit of the place; yet the Churches there (I meane the Dutch) never approoved of the course held there by these Brethren and their people. It hath been affirmed to me p. 56that many of the Dutch Ministers were much offended at M^r Bridges being ordained Minister by the Lay-elders without any preaching Presbyters: And what ever right-hand fellowship, and brotherly correspondency you might hold with the Dutch Divines; some of the English Ministers of the Reformed Churches there, have complained of your great strangenesse and distance towards them; and, instance hath been given me particularly, (by a great friend of yours now in London) that when some of you have come to Amsterdam, you never would goe to M^r Herrings, (a good old non-conformist) but have gone to M^r Canne's (the Separatist) and to his Church. And besides, this report, told me some yeares agoe, from a friend of your owne, that I might not only beleeve reports, I sent over into Holland some questions about the truth of some things related by you in this Apologie, the contrary whereunto, I had been informed of before: and among other questions, upon this Section, I propounded, what communion and converse, passed between the godly English Ministers and their Congregations, and you? or whether, when you came to Amsterdam, you went not rather to the Brownists meetings, and conversed with M^r Canne more then the Reformed Ministers: Unto which question, I had this answer in so many words sent: To this I can say, that since my comming hither, we have had no such communion with them, as that we have prevailed with any of them to preach in our Congregation, though I am sure, some of them have beene earnestly importuned thereunto, indeed Mr Bridge seemed once to be willing, but did not. And for their going to the Brownists, and conversing with Mr Canne more then us; that is undeniable, What you may of this reade, in Epistle to the Rejoinder indefence of Mr Bradshaw, against Mr Canne, is most true and certaine.

But suffer me a little to examine the particulars wherein you would proove, the mutuall giving and receiving the right-hand of fellowship: For the first; That you were received and entertained with the like respect that you gave to our Churches in England, I easily beleeve (which was but little.) And if the Reformed Churches look't upon you, and you on them, as you did upon our Churches in this Kingdome; you have no cause to boast here, of p. 57mutuall giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship, remembring what I answered to your last Section concerning your profession of our Churches. As to that proofe you bring, of their giving you the right hand of fellowship, in their abundantly manifesting it by the very same characters and testimonies of difference, which are proper to their own orthodox Churches, and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects, &c, I answer, this was not to all of your Churches, for M^r Simpson (which yet is your way, and is here owned by you all in this Apologie) had not a Church, or publike place for worship granted to him, nor the priviledge of ringing a Bell to call to meetings, but was looked upon as a Sect, (as M^r Bridge told me.) And in a Letter out of Holland from a good hand to that question: Whether M^r Simpsons Church had the allowance of ringing a publike Bell to call to their meeting, and whether any maintenance allowed by the States: 'Tis answered: To this, I shall say, I never yet heard by any, that his Church had any such allowance of Bell, or maintenance by the States. Now if M^r Simpsons Church was lookt upon as a Sect, (tollerated but not owned) wanting that great signall of difference between allowed Churches and all other assemblies, namely, the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto their meetings: and the rest of your Churches being just of the same way and constitution with his, (as appeares by this Apologie) then, the ranking of you, now you are here, with Sects, is no great injury to you: Neither will the granting to your two other Churches, publike places to worship, with maintenance for some of your Ministers, &c. free you from being lookt upon as Sects by the Churches and Ministers there: but I must tell you, these priviledges came from other grounds, as namely, one of your Churches consisting of many persons of great quality, and going at first to a priviledged place; the other Church having formerly been a Church in the way of the Reformed Churches there, and so had then the allowance of a publike place. (The first sensible declining of that Church to the new-way, being by M^r Peters, (before he went to New-England,) Now M^r Bridge comming to that Church, and bringing with him and after him wealthy Citizens and Clothiers, by which the Magistrates at Rotterdam knowing well their advantage; p. 58No wonder though they permitted that Church, their publike place, and gave to their Ministers a full and liberall maintenance, yea and Wine for their Communions, and yet should gaine well by it. As for your holding all brotherly correspondency with their Divines (which I suppose you meane the Dutch) not knowing any of them, I can say nothing against it; but only 'tis a great presumption that holding so little brotherly correspondencie with our own English Divines there, you held not much with the Dutch: But grant that which you say to be true, that you held all De Ecclesijs reformatis quid aliud dicam? eas pro veris & genuinis, &c. Ecclesijs bahemus: cum eisdem in sacris Dei communionem prositemur, & quantum in nobis est colimus: conciones publicas ab illarum pastoribus habitas ex nostris, qui norant linguam Eelgicam frequentant. Sacrā coenam earum membris, siqua forte nostro coetui intersint nobis cognita participamus, Robin. Apolog. Apolog.faire correspondencie with them that might be upon other grounds, for your own advantage and benefit many wayes, you being strangers and they in their own countrey, as also to see if you could gaine any of their Ministers to your Church-way. And as for your receiving some of their members unto communion in the Sacraments, that might be but to strengthen your own way and to advance that Church-principle of receiving them by vertue of their relation of membership. And here I desire to put two questions to you. 1. Whether in receiving some members of the Dutch Churches (who desired to communicate with you) you put them upon professing themselves to be members of their Churches, and belonging thereunto (as you did the English who came to you.) 2. Though you received some of them unto communion in your Churches, whether any of you ever received the Lords Supper in any of their Churches? or in any of the English Churches in Holland who were not of your way and communion? But grant all you say in all your profession of your respect and holding communion with the Dutch Churches, whereby you would free your selves from the imputation of Separation, and make the Reader beleeve the Brownists and you had no affinity: I answer, You say no more, nor hardly so much as M^r Robinson writ in his Apologie 25 yeares since of those Reformed Churches, page 10, 11.

Now for the way and practise of our Churches we give this briefe and generall account. Our publike worship was made up of no other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches doth consist of. As publike and solemne prayers for Kings and all in authority, &c. the reading the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament; Exposition of them as occasion was; and constant p. 59preaching of the word; the administration of the two Sacraments, Baptisme to Infants, and the Lords Supper; singing of Psalmes; collections for the poore, &c. every Lords day. For Officers and publike Rulers in the Church, we set up no other but the very same which the reformed Churches judge necessary and sufficient, and as Instituted by Christ and his Apostles for the perpetuall government of his Church, that is, Pastors, Teachers, Ruling-Elders, (with us not lay but Ecclesiastique persons separated to that service) and Deacons. And for the matter of government and censures of the Church, we had nor executed any other but what all acknowledge, namely, Admonition, and Excommunication upon obstinacie and impenitency, (which we blesse God we never exercised.) This latter we judged should be put in execution, for no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties known light; as whether it be a sin in manners and conversation, such as is committed against the light of nature, or the common received practises of Christianity, professed in all the Churches of Christ; or if in opinions, then such, as are likewise contrary to the received principles of Christianity, and the power of godlinesse, professed by the party himselfe, and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches, and no other sins to be the subject of that dreadfull sentence.]

In this Section you give us a Narration of the way and practises of your Churches. Wherein, in the beginning you tell the Reader, We give this briefe and generall account; But how much better had it been, and more proper to have given a full, and particular account here, then in your other parts, about New-England, and the Reformed Churches in Holland; A full and particular account of the way and practises of your Churches, had answered more the nature of such a Narration, and would have satisfied all men: but why did you in the most materiall part give such a briefe and generall account? knowing that under brevities and generalities, there lies much mistake and deceit. And let me tell you, this briefe and generall account, falls short of your way and practises: and either you had bad memories in your writing this Apologie, about the parts of your worship, Officers and censures, to forget p. 60some of them; or else you have on purpose conceal'd them; holding out the bright side of the cloud (namely, what the Reformed Churches practise) but hiding the back: which is so much the more justly to be excepted against, because as you set down the words, and give the account, they are not true; but I can say, (and make it good too) your publike worship was made up of other parts then the worship of all other Reformed Churches, namely, of Prophesying in your Congregations: and for Officers and publike Rulers in the Church, you set up others then the reformed Churches, namely Widdowes: And for the matter of government and censures of the Church; you have executed others, besides Admonition and Excommunication, namely, deposition of a Minister, and confession of offences publikely, and orderings of solemne Fasting for Humiliation upon confession of sins, as your selves relate the story in the 16th page, and one and twentieth: besides, you hold other censures of the Church: the Sentence of of Non-communion with Declaration, and Protestation to all other Churches; as appeares by your own relation, page 17, 18, 19. For publike worship that you exercised prophecying, I could name unto you, who of the members have prophecied at Arnheim, and upon what subject, but I spare them; I could tell you, how M^r Bridge and M^r Sympson fell out upon the point of Prophecie, (as M^r Bridge informed me) and of the exercising of Prophesie in M^r Sympsons Church at Rotterdam, as well as at Arnheim, I could out of manuscripts produce how arguments are framed to draw away people from our Churches upon this ground, as being defective in some ordinances, namely prophesying. And besides prophesying, I propound it to you, whether some of you have not held out some other publike worship, then the reformed Churches hold, namely Hymns and annointing the sick members of the Church with oyle; As also, whether a little before your comming over into England, some members of the Church of Arnheim, did not propound the holy kisse, or the kisse of love, to be practised by Church-members; Nay whether by some persons in that Church, was it not begun to be used and practised; And in this enumeration of the parts of publike worship, I desire to know why you put in &c. and what is meant by &c. for that implies more p. 61parts then you enumerate. And we know, &c. is a dangerous and suspicious phrase ever since the late Canons and Oath, for under that &c. may be meant Prophesying, and Hymnes, and Annointing with oyle, and the Kisse of love, and many other parts which the reformed Churches practise not, and so your publike worship may be made up of many other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches, and that there is great cause to speake thus, and doubt, appeares, because I know not, nor cannot reckon up any other part of publike worship used every Lords day in the reformed Churches then the particulars mentionad by you without an &c. and therefore what you meane by under &c. unlesse Prophesying, Hymnes and such like, I cannot imagine. For Officers and publike Rulers in the Church, whether you actually had made any Church-Widdowes in any of your Churches, (they being matter of charge, which also, as for admitting of poore members, some of you are very carefull of,) I cannot affirme, but that you hold Widdowes to be Officers of the Church, and part of the Church government, that I can prove by these following instances. 1. By a passage in a Letter from M^r Bridge to some at Norwitch, by M^r Davenports profession of faith printed, and Letter to Mr King, Mr Tost, &c.by M^r Cottons Catechisme. And how much you have of late reasoned, for such a Church Officer in the Assembly, you know; And let the Reader observe that by the way, that we must judge of your wayes rather by what you hold, then alwayes by your practise, for one of your Churches hath been some yeares without a Pastour the first and chiefe Officer, and yet you set up such, moch more may you be without Widdowes for some yeares, and yet hold them, and as you have Widdowes a Church Officer, which the reformed Churches hold not, so in one of your Churches you have had Teaching Elders, besides a Pastor, and Teacher; And what ever the reformed Churches hold of their Officers as necessary and sufficient for the perpetuall government of the Church, Yet your practise is not, as if you held them necessary and perpetuall; for one of your Churches, hath been many yeares without a Pastour, the prime Officer and Ruler in the Church, and other of your Churches without other officers, which if they were so necessary, and as instituted by Christ and his Apostles, for the perpetuall p. 62Governement of the Church; how you can be without these officers, and namely the most necessarie and principall, for many yeares together, I cannot see: And I desire you in your Reply, to satisfie us; and to shew Reason, how you can depart from that which is confest by all Churches, and your selves to, for the maintaining an opinion of the essentiall difference, betweene Pastours and Teachers in each Congregation, so much denied by many learned and godly Divines. As for that Parenthesis about ruling Elders (with us not Lay but Ecclesiastick persons separated to that service) I desire to know, wherein and how, your ruling Elders, are more Ecclesiasticke persons, and separated to that service, then the ruling Elders of the Reformed Churches: The Reformed Churches, account their ruling-Elders Ecclesiasticall persons, and they are separated to that worke, by election and ordination; and whereas you make a distinction in the manner of your expressions, between ruling Elders separated to that service and Deacons. I aske you, whether Deacons are not Ecclesiasticall persons, and separated to that service by Election and ordination, as well as Elders? what, are your more, and in what further degree, are they Ecclesiasticall then the ruling Elders of the Reformed Churches, or your owne Deacons; doe you meane them so Ecclesiasticall and separated to that service of ruling, so as the Pastours and Teachers are to their office, that is, separated from all civill Imployments and callings to the worke of wholly attending the flocke, and of being as Ministers and preachers of the word; now if you understand it in this sense that all your ruling-Elders doe give over their civill callings and worldly imployments, and are so separated, as Pastours and Teachers are, it being the duty of the ruling-Elder to teach publikely as well as governe, then I have nothing to say against your ruling-Elders. And this puts an end to all that controversie about Lay-Elders, onelyonly let me aske you two questions. 1. What specificall difference you will give me, betweene those officers the Ministers of the word, and ruling-Elders. Seeing both rule and preach, and what becomes then of those texts, 1 Cor. 12. Rom. 12. Which are held out to prove Church Government by, and amongst other particulars are brought to prove, that besides those who teach and preach the word, the Scripture reckons up p. 63Governours and Rulers. 2. Whether did your Gentlemen and Merchants, who were made ruling-Elders among you, upon their office give over their merchandizing, and their way of living, as Gentlemen, wholly applying themselves to their studies, and to all gravitie in apparell, haire, &c. But now, if your ruling-Elders, doe follow, their merchandizing and trade, and are not as Pastours and Teachers, how can you affirme of them, to be more Ecclesiastick persons then your Deacons, or then the Elders of other Reformed Churches. And as for the matter of Governement, and censures of the Church, you did forget here, what you were to write in the 16^th page, and in the 21^th. How one of your Churches unhappily deposed one of their Ministers, which censure was neither admonition nor excommunication upon obstinacie and impenitence. But the particulars under this head, I have spoken to, upon this Section alreadie. But as I have clearly and unanswerably shewed your publique worship was made up of other parts, then the worship of all other Reformed Churches, and have instanced wherein you practised and held over and above, so let me from this Narration of your wayes and practises here, question, whether you practised all parts of worship, and censures, which other Churches practise. For I feare, your Narration, as it is all a long subtilly carried (for though you say, your worship was made of no other parts, nor you executed no other censures, but what all acknowledge) so it may be here, and you may conceale, what you have omitted, was your worship then, and is it still made up of all these: Doe all of you hold, or did you practise, in Holland, the reading the Scriptures of the old and new Testament, as an Ordinance without any exposition, and doe you practise the singing of Psalmes, according to the way of Reformed Churches. I have been told that at Roterdam, the Scriptures were never read barely without Exposition, and there are many of your Church way and communion, that will neither joyne in hearing the Scriptures read, nor in singing of Psalmes in our Congregations. Which makes me doubt some of you may be of the same opinion and practise. And did all of you whilest you were in Holland, and doe you now administer Baptisme to all the Infants of your Churches, or are there not some Infants p. 64unbaptized amongst you; and for the matter of censures, though you say you had, nor executed no other, but what all acknowledge, yet you doe not affirme, you executed all censures which other Reformed Churches acknowledge, and so you conceale your judgement of things. Yet in this Narration of your way and practises, you carry your discourse so in this Section, as if your practise and way were all the same with the Reformed Churches, but had you dealt ingeniously, in the Narration of the way, and practises of your Churches, you should have laid downe particularly as wherein, and how farre you agreed with the Reformed Churches, so also wherein you departed from them: namely you should have shewed in what you practised more then they doe, and wherein you practise short of them, and in the things you practised with them, yet how you differ'd in the manner of them; but to returne to that of censures Reformed Churches practise, besides admonition, and before they come to excommunication, that which is called by Divines, Abstentio à sacracaena, but you doe not so, but conceale this; but brethren, why should you not practise this, especially considering how according to your principles; the Church is to receive the Lords Supper, every Lords day: Now suppose some members commit a great sinne on the Saturday, which though comming it be known to the Ministers or Elders, and some of the people, either there may be no time to call the Church to admonish the parties, or if there be for admonition, yet not time sufficient for the parties to testifie Repentance, and yet, the persons may not be judged obstinate and impenitent as to be excommunicated; but the persons offending will come now to the Lords table; in the interim, what will you doe in this case? And further the Reformed Churches enjoyne the censure of open confession of sinnes, and practise deposition of officers from their places, which may justly arise upon some cases, and yet not thinke it fit to proceed unto excommunication. (as your selves practised in M. Wards case) never proceeding to give him up to Satan; but how lame and defective is this your Narration, about the governement of the Church; onelyonly relating two things, you practised in common with the Reformed Churches, and as concealing other things you practised not with p. 65them, so wholly passing over in silence here all your different way of practising from all Churches, in the way of ordination, in the way of constituting Churches, and admission into them, and in the way of governing by the votes and suffrages of the whole bodie, in the way of celebration the Lords Supper, receiving it at night, &c. in the Sacrament of Baptisme, with many other particulars; which whether it be fairly done, I appeale to the Reader, who is by this much deceived, thinking upon the reading of: this Narration, that you had agreed in all things, of Worship, Officers, Censures with the Reformed Churches: But to returne to that censure of Excommunication, which you insist upon, laying downe your judgement about the subject of that censure: As for your blessing God, you never exercised it. There may be but little ground for such a blessing, but cause rather to be humbled for not using it seasonably: I judge had you practised it, some revilings, evill speakings between many members of your Churches, with some other offences might have been prevented: But there is no such great cause to set out your selves, by the non-exercise of Excommunication, if what you hold for the matter of it be considered, wherein I suppose you differ from all Orthodox Reformed Churches, and doe open a wide gappe to much licentiousnesse both in doctrine and practise: What doe you judge? Is it not to be put in Execution for no other kind of sinnes, then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light, &c. What if men practise Polygamie, prophane the Lords day, by using it as they doe any other daie, what if they doe hold, and accordingly will have practised communitie of goods amongst beleevers, what if they maintaine that Christians ought not to be Magistrates, all which are not condemned in all the Churches of Christ (especially if some Churches may be taken for Churches of Christ, and we have reason to beleeve by your manner of expressions you include such) neither are perpetrated against the parties knowne light, but rather are practised upon new light, and as new truthes; and let me intreate you in your Replie to explain your meaning, what you meane by all the Churches of Christ, and by the common received practises of Christianitie; and what by the principles of Christianitie universally acknowledged in all the p. 66rest of the Churches, whether by Churches you understand the Churches onelyonly of your owne communion and waie, or the Churches which are commonly called the Reformed: Or else all Churches whatsoever that are so called, as, besides your owne and the Reformed, the Churches of the Anabaptists, Antinomians, and such like: And I have reason to propound this question, your words being so doubtfull: Now if your words and phrases be taken in the first sence, of your Churches only, that those sinnes and no other are to be the subject of Excommunication, then great sins and errours according to the Scripture, and judged so by Orthodox Churches, may escape Excommunication; and on the contrarie, many matters, which according to Scripture are neither sinnes nor errours, but only your Churches hold them so, may have that dreadfull sentenee passe upon them: but if you meane it in the largest sence, for all kind of Churches, and for the received principles and practises of Christianitie professed and acknowledged in all the Churches, then more sinnes and errours so judged by the word, by most Churches, and by your owne Churches too, will not be acknowledged for such in all the rest of the Churches, and so shall escape that censure: But if you should say, you meane onelyonly the Reformed-churches commonly so called, and the common received practises professed by them, it cannot be so understood (as is evident) by your own expressions in this passage about Excommunication.

So that here are strange unsafe rules to goe by in the censure of Excommunication, and I judge it is a part of the new light, and now truths of these times, never yet given by any learned Classicall Authour. How much better were it for Churches to make the subject of Excommunication, such sins and errours which the Scripture hath made so, and those sinnes to be agreed upon, by common consent in Assemblies, and Synods so drawne up for all to know them. But if it be objected that this may hinder further light, and an after discoverie. I answer, when any thing more shall come to be found out, this need be no hinderance unto any light; but by the publike Government, and common consent, upon good grounds may be added: But this your judgement about the censure of Excommunication I feare is calculated for the p. 67Meridian of pretended liberty of conscience. Now this position of holding the subject of Excommunication, to be onelyonly such sins and errours as are against the parties knowne light, and the common received practises of Christianity professed in all Churches, and no other to be the subject of it, tends much to the tolerating of Sects and Heresies, which in this impure age is by many men, and by too many of the Church way so studiously promoted against the nature of Reformation and true zeale. But if one of the great ends of Excommunication be to preserve others from infection, and to keepe the Church of God pure, (as Divines teach;) then thuogh the party offending shall pretend such sins or errours are not against his knowne light, neither contrary to the received principles of Christianity universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches, yet Excommunication ought to be exercised by them who have power in the Church.

And for our direction in these or whatsoever else requisite to the manage of them. We had these three principles more especially Apolog.in our eye, to guide and steere our practise by.

1. First, The supreame rule without us, was the Primitive patterne, and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles. Our consciences were possessed with that reverence and adoration of the fulnesse of the Scriptures, that there is therein a compleate sufficiencie, as to make the man of God perfect so also to make the Churches of God perfect; (meere circumstances we except, or what rules the law of nature doth in common dictate) if the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed. And although we cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein, which may meet with all cases and emergencies, that may or sometimes did fall out amongst us, or that may give satisfaction unto all Queries possible to be put unto us; yet we found principles enough, not only fundamentall and essentiall to the being of a Church, but superstructorie also for the well-being of it, and those to us cleare and certain, and such as might well serve to preserve our Churches in peace and from offence, and would comfortably guide us to heaven in a safe way: And the observation of so many of those particulars to be laid forth in the word, became to us a more certaine evidence p. 68and cleare confirmation that there were the like rules and ruled cases for all occasions whatsoever, if we were able to discerne them. And for all such cases wherein we saw not a cleare resolution from Scripture, example or direction, we still professedly suspended, untill God should give us further light, not daring to seeke out what was defective in our light in matters divine with human… prudence (th… fatall errour to Reformation) lest by sowing any peece of the old garment unto the new, we should make the rent worse, we having this promise of grace for our encouragement in this, which in our publike Assemblies was often for our comfort mentioned, that in thus doing the will of God we should know more.

From the Narration of your way and practises of your Churches, you come now to shew the three great principles above all others by which you guided your selves in your practise; which I come now to examine, and doubt not but as you have exprest them to discover to the Readers their weaknesse and defectivenesse, and easily to take off, all the seeming strength of the reasons hinted in them for your selves, and against us.

To the first Principle, the supreame rule without you, the primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles (which also is exprest by you in the third page) as that sacredpillar of fire to guide you by in all the positive part of Church worship and Government. I answer, why is the old Testament forgotten by you, and in both these places, not so much as mentioned. What, is the old Testament no patterne, nor example to you in Church-worship and governement, nor is there nothing recorded there any part of the sacred pillar of fire to guide you by: Consider whether in this, you follow not too much the example of some Heretiques and erroneous spirits, who will have nothing to doe with the old Testament, in the points they hold: This is the way of the Anabaptists, and of the Antinomians, both of old and at this day, and I am sorry such men as you, in such a formall Apologie and Narration of your way (as you hold out this to be) should so farre forget your selves, as to countenance such persons so farre. And I must tell you, that your search was insufficient and your rule too short, if you looked only on the first Apostolike p. 69directions, patterne and examples of those Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles: For in the old Testament there are many rules, directions and examples, as a pillar of fire to guide the Churches now by (as that Rom. 15. 4. showes) namely those examples and rules of morall and common equitie, else the Church of God should loose now many a good ground, for many practises, and you and your partie have been ill advised to fetch grounds out of the old Testament for many things you hold and practise. There are some things you practise that you have no proofe for at all out of the new Testament, either in example or precept: As for instance in the point of Ordination by the people without Officers you alleadge the 8. Numb. 20. but can bring none out of the new Testament, so for the Church-covenant you multiply places out of the old, as Ier. 50. 5. &c. But none out of the new, and so for that power which you allow Christian Magistrates in the Church, you fetch from the old Testament. So in the point of idolatrie against the naming the names used by Idolaters, you bring all out of the old Testament (as M^r Burroughs in his Exposition on Hosea 2.) And without the taking in the old Testament (which you so wholly forget in this your first principle) you would loose much strength in severall points you hold and practise, against some who differ from you. As in the Baptisme of Infants from the Covenant made with Abraham and his seed, and the Circumcision of Infants, as in keeping the Christian Sabbath from the fourth Commandement, as in speaking against humane inventions in the worship of God from the second Commandement, with other particulars of the same kind. Now if you will use the old Testament in some examples and commands, as you doe, (though here you forget to mention it,) Then grounds out of the old Testament, (in matters not ceremoniall and judiciall proper to the Jewes policie, Nation and times,) but in things of morall and common equitie will justifie other practises. And how then you can escape in the way of Church government, the lawfullnesse of appeales from lower Judicatories to higher, and the lawfullnesse of Formes of publike prayer composed and prescribed, with other particulars, I see not: But because you foresaw these, and such like, (as that of a Nationall p. 70Church) you here decline the old Testament and speake only of the New, and but of a part only of that too, namely that of the Acts of the Apostles, and the Epistles, as your words in both pages, third and ninth, intimate, The Churches erected by the Apostles, and the first Apostolike directions, patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches recorded in the new Testament, which reaches no farther then the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles: But though you doe not deale fairely in abridging the Scriptures, and making your supreme rule so narrow, as the Acts and Epistles; and I might justly stand upon it, to make you inlarge your rule to the books both of Old and new Testament: yet well knowing the Acts of Apostles and Epistles will cast you; I am well contented, and most ready at that weapon alone to try it with you, and care not in the present controversie of the Church-way, as to let all other Authours, so for the old Testament, and that part of the New too, the Gospells, to stand by; And if you can make good out of the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles by any Apostolike direction, patterne or example of those Primitive Churches, directed by the Apostles, many things you practise and maintaine, as Ordination of Ministers by the people alone, as your Church-covenant, as a few private Christians to gather and constitute a Church, as persons to be members of such Congregations where they live constantly many miles distant from their Ministers and the meeting places, with other such, I will yeeld the cause, and if I make not good from the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles, things mainly opposed by you, but affirmed by us; As that of particular Churches to consist of more then can meet in one place to be edified in all parts of worship, with other such, then blame me: So that I may say of your Church-way, and the questions between us, (as Tertullian answered long since some hereticks,) That if they were to be determined by the Scriptures they would not subsist; Tertul. de Resur. carn…, …. 3.Now as to the ground of this principle within you, yeur consciences were possest with that reverence and adoration of the fullnesse of the Scriptures, that there is therein a compleate sufficiency, as to make the man of God perfect, so also to make the Churches of God perfect, &c. First, I answer, Your ground here alledged, doth not prove your supreame rule without you, (namely p. 71the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles) to be compleatly sufficient to make the Churches of God perfect, because that speakes as of the whole Scriptures, that there is in them a compleat sufficiencie and not as of a part, now though the Scriptures may be and are so full and perfect, yet every part may not: you can in reason conceive that the whole may be compleatly sufficient to all ends and uses for which it was intended, when a part or parts may not suffice. And that Scripture which you allude unto for proofe, 2 Tim. 3. v. 16, 17. speakes of the whole Scripture, and not of a part only, the Papists would have foreign in that text, to signifie non totam, sed omnem Scripturam, and so would give that praise, not to the whole body of the Scriptures, but to particular parts of it: Learned aaChamier. Panstrat. Cathol. lib. 8. de Canone, cap. 3.Chamier snewes the contrary, how that the whole Scripture is here rather to be understood, and he proves it by a threefold argument, and in this great question between us and the Papists, An Scriptura Christianum perf…ctum reddat, resolves the question to be understood of the whole canon in the Old and new Testament: And so doth bbWhitak. de Script. perfect. quae. 6. cap. 14.D^r Whitakers, by which you may judge how unsufficient and short your first principle was, being only a part of the Scriptures, but not the whole, and you may observe the fallaciousnesse of your reason propounded to argue from the whole to a part, because the whole Scriptures have a compleat sufficiencie to make the Churches of God perfect, therefore the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles have too. Secondly, I doe also adore the fullnesse of the Scriptures, and God forbid that I should take from the Scriptures any thing God gives unto them, or that which in the Scripture is attributed unto it; but we must not give unto the Scriptures more then what God intended them for, or what the Scripture affirmes of it selfe, for that is to be wise above what is written, and to adde unto the word, and may be and hath been a ground of dangerous consequence in the Church of God, and to cleare it from your own instances of exception: (Meere circumstances we except, &c.) Now suppose some to speake as you doe, and to be really acted also upon the same ground of the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures, should yet affirme of the Scriptures p. 72without all exception of me … circumstances, and of the rules which the law of nature doth in common dictate, and should say nothing must be practised, no not in meere circumstances, but by some direction from the word; and as for the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate, in them also the Scripture gives light how to doe them, and thereupon should speake as you doe all along in this Section; would not this prove inconvenient and trouble you in your Churches; Nay suppose some should so extoll the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that they should hold them so perfect and sufficient for all Christians as to be a perfect rule for all civill government, and that Chrstian common-wealths ought to be governed by lawes only there recorded and by no other (which opinion in substance Carolostadius held; That in Courts of justice Judges should not proceed according to In soro non ex jure humano sed ex lege Mosis pronunciandum esse contendit, Melch, Adam. vit. Carolost.humane laws, but according to the law of Moses; and so for Military practises should hold all the way of Warre must be founded upon the Scriptures, and thereupon should clamour against any other art and way of Warre, then what was practised there. What would you reply to these men, or what strength were there in such principles, would not you answer them, in what sense the Scriptures were perfect, and how they must understand it. Men have often by giving more to the most excellent creatures and things then the Scriptures allow, fallen into great errors and mistakes. The Papists and Ubiquitaries speake highly of the body of Christ, and 'tis all in the way of magnifying it, and Schuvenckfeldius did boast himselfe to be the Assertor of the glory of the flesh of Christ in Heaven, (which other Preachers neglected Schlusselburg. de Secta Schuvenck…ld.or else opposed,) and yet all these held great errors about the body, and humane nature of Christ, under the notion of advancing it. So in the present controversie, by giving to the Scriptures that which God hath not given to them, both is, and may be a ground of error. And therefore I referre you for the true sense of that question concerning the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to make the Churches of God perfect, unto the answers our Protestant Divines give the Papists in that controversie about the perfection of the Scriptures. (And by the way, let me commend to you, and all the Ministers of the Church-way, to study our Protestant p. 73writers, as Whitakers, Chamier, &c. against the Papists upon the Church, and of the notes of the visible Church, upon the controversie concerning the Scriptures, the authority of Councels and Synods; and you shall find satisfaction to most of the materiall grounds which have misled you in your Church-way.) In which answers you shall find, that the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scripture is principally meant in matters of doctrine, and in points necessary to salvation: And for policie and externall order wherein the Scriptures doe reach to them, it is to be understood of the Essentials, Substantials and Fundamentals of Government and Discipline, and not of the accidentals, accessaries and circumstantials, as I could abundantly out of Calvin, Beza, Zanchius, Iunius, Daneus shew you: But I intend a whole Tractate upon that question of the Scriptures, how farre they are a rule for all matters of externall government and order in the visible Church, with an answer to this objection particularly, and will not enlarge further, saving only that I will adde the resolution of this question and case out of Whitaker, Chamier and Cameron, who are full and cleare, that 'tis not against the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures, that all matter of externall order and policie are not laid down in the word: Learned Chamier shewes the judgement of the Churches of France, Holland, nay he shews, 'tis the perpetuall opinion of all the Protestants, and he adds, Yea truly to speake (as the matter is:) The Church cannot be altogether without unwritten traditions, and he instances in certain Rites according to places, times, and persons, changeable and various: So Cameron, For since the Scripture hath Cameron. S… ver. Iudge in controvers. c. 11.been ordained of God to make one wise unto salvation, and perfect unto every good work, it must without doubt containe all doctrine necessary to salvation, otherwise it could not attaine its end: Let us then adore (as Tertullian speakes) the fulnesse of the Scriptures, and let us not heare (as Athanasius speaketh) neither receive any thing besides or above them in that which concernes the doctrine of faith. For touching the policie and ceremonies used in the Church; it is another matter, we avouch that the Fathers did not thinke, themselves bound to give an account of them by the Scripture. So D^r Whitakers speaks also the same in that p. 74question and controversie of the perfection of the Scriptures against humane traditions.

Catholici in hoc toto negotio distinguendum putant inter r…s quae traduntur in Ecclesia & rationem earum tradendarum: & Chamier. Panstrat. Cathol. de Canone. l. 8. c. 1. de persectione Scripturae. Stat… controversiae. Sect. 16.res ipsas esse duorum generum, scilicot alias in quibus substantia est, & quasi conpus religionis Christianae; non tantum ad fidem, sed etiam ad mores formandos, politiam que Ecclesiae continendam: proinde necessarias ex vi institutionis divinae: alias eju… essentiae velut appondices, ejus que corporis ornamenta; ne que ex s…, ne que ex institutiono divina necessarias, sed potiu… foreign, & politi… tantum causa in usum receptas: ut sunt disciplinae partos varijs caeno…ibus sancitae.

Imo vero ut fateamur quod res est, omnino non potest Ecclesia carere Traditionibus non scrip…is; sive intelligas quotidianam tradendae Cham. de Canone. l. 8. c. 2. Sect. 20.fid…libus ojus veritatis, quae non aliunde hauritur quam è libris sacris rationem: sive ritus quosdampro locis, temp…ribus, & pers…nis varios: aptos tamen exercendae pietati, charitati que conservandae: qui etsi non extent in canone totidem literis, tamen a nemine contemni debent, eo ipso quod ab Ecclesia, id est pastoribus instituti sunt: dum tamen nihil officiant aut sinceritati doctrinae aut libertati conscientiae: cui propriè leges prescribit, non nisi Deus.

Non dicimus, omnes liberas ceremonias esse nominatim in Scripturis traditas, ut quemadmodum se gerere debeant homines Whitak. de Script Perfect. contra Hum. Tradit. quae. 6. c. 10.in sacris caetibus & hujusmodi, quas esse varias & … pro temporum & personarum ratione minime ignoramus: de caeremonijs (inquam) liberis quae ad externam tantum politiam & decorum pertinent non contendimus, sed de necessaria doctrina. Haec perpetua; illae vero non perpetuae, sed ad tempora accommodatae.

Deinde fatemur Apostolos in singulis Ecclesiis ritus aliquos at que consuetudines ordinis & decoris causa sanxisse, non autem Whitak. de Script. perfect. quaest. 6. c. 6. Status quaestionis proponitur. 6 Article of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures for salvation. Vide 39 Articles of Relig. of Ch. of Engl.scripsisse; quia hi ritus non fuerunt perpetui futuri, sed liberi, qui pro commodo & temporum ratione mu…ri possunt. Praescriptos autem ab illis esse ejusmodi ritus aliquos ad honestam Ecclesiae foreign accommodatos, pater ex 1 Cor. 11. & 14. cap. Tantum generalis regula habetur in Scripturis, omnes istosritus ad adificationem p. 75ac decorum esse dirigendos; sed ipsi particulares ritus non proponuntur. At dicimus omnia, quae necessaria sunt, sive ad fidem sive ad vitam spectent, apertè & abundè in Scripturis explicari.

Now as for the exception made by you of this rule of meere circumstances, and the rules of the law of nature, where what you affirme, seems to amount to this, that you practised all the examples of the Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles, (excepting those.) Suffer me to aske you these few questions upon your exceptions made of this first rule.

First, What you meane by meere circumstances, and what by the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate? because the Reader may be much deceived in these generall and doubtfull expressions: you should have done well to have particularized what you judge circumstances, and what meere circumstances, and what be the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate, as also have laid downe before the Reader, how you in your Church-way keepe unto these; and I aske the rather, because I find a Sermon of M^r Bridge, (one of the Authors of this Apologie) preacht before the House of Commons not Serm. at publike Fast, Novemb. 29, 1643. pag. 26.long before this Apologie came forth, that makes none of these exceptions, but excepts and excludes them, shewing that in the visible Church Gods word is our line able to reach unto all particular affaires of the Churches: and in particular he labours to answer that of circumstances, and perverts two sayings of Luther and Bishop Iewel.

Secondly, Whether you doe practise and observe your own rule here given with the exceptions made by you? or whether you doe not much depart from it in your Church-way, not yeelding to meere circumstances nor the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate? as for instance, receiving the Lords Supper at night, contrary to the practise of the reformed Churches, standing upon that circumstance of time; denying appeales from the particular Congregations, whereas appeales are a rule the law of nature doth in common dictate.

Thirdly, I demand of you, how you could so nakedly propound the Apostolicall directions, patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches to walke by, (excepting meere circumstances and p. 76the rules of the law of nature,) and not except withall extraordinary and miraculous, personall and particular, occasionall and accidentall, temporary and locall patterns and examples. I owne the Scripture for the rule, rightly understanding it, and in matters of Discipline and Church-order professe to walke by it, desiring to be tied to the Scripture patterns, particularly to the patterns of examples and precepts recorded in the new Testament, (provided this be understood in essentials and fundamentals of order, in matters of perpetuall use, and of a common reason to all times and places;) only I adde that in some things, where in matter of order and externall government there may be no such cleare directions either by precept or example, there generall rules of the word, with deductions out of Scripture examples, and from precepts by way of Analogie, with rules of common prudence be taken in too. Now the interpretation of this rule (as I have laid it downe) being rejected, and the rule simply taken up without such limitations, will produce a wilde and strange discipline and Church-order, to practise all things recorded in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles, without distinction and difference of those times, persons, places, and ours: and on the other hand to practise nothing but what hath a cleare example, or precept is strange too, and in so doing, reasonable men cannot become a Church society, nor exercise Church communion. And however in matters of externall government and administration of holy things in the visible Church some pretend to this, to practise whatever they find recorded in the Scriptures, and to practise nothing whatsoever they find not there, yet none of the Independents, no not the highest forme of them, the Anabaptists, nor the highest sort of Anabaptists (who were called Apostolici from their pretending to imitate the Apostles in all things) ever yet have or doe practise all patternes and examples recorded in the new Testament, or are contented with them alone, but practise somewhat over and above not particularly recorded in Scripture. I could lay downe a catalogue of many particulars specified in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles, not practised in your Churches, nor in any Churches of the independent way, as also of many things practised by you (which we never read of in the Scriptures,) so that all the Independents p. 77are in many things according to the first patterne both defective and excessive. But I referre the full handling of this to a Tractate I intend concerning the Scriptures, How farre the Scriptures are a rule for all matters of Church government and order in the visible Church; I adde only one thing for the Readers sake, that they be carefull to understand this first principle of yours, not so nakedly as you lay it downe in page 8, 9, 10, 11. because it hath been, is, and may be a rock to split many on, and an Ignis fatuus to lead many into waters, instead of a sacred pillar of fire to guide to Heaven in a safe way. This foolish imitation of the Apostles in all things in matters of externall order, hath been and is the great foundation of evils on all hands, both in many practises and points of Popery, and amongst the Anabaptists, (as I could demonstrate in particulars.) Learned aaDanaei Comment in 1 Tim. 5. v. 13. & v. 17. Cum foreign quadam homines omnia quae Apostolorum temporibus observata suerant sibi putarent imitanda, ne que locorum, ne que temporum, ne que rerum diss…nilium rationem baberent, e…am & ipsi suas Dioconissas retinere praec…è voluerunt. Sed cum posterioribus temporibus, &c. Et certe …is impudentes sunt Catabaptistae qui Pauli facti & exempli praetex… omnes verbi Dei ministros ad manualia o…era cogendos esse contendunt, ut victum comparent.1 Tim 5:13Danaeus in his Commentaries upon 1. Tim. cap. 5. speakes of it. bbApostolici inter Anabaptist as cognominati sunt, quia Apostolos aemulari in omnibus decreverunt. Hi nudam Scripturae literam tenere se jactabant. Abs que ba…ulo, calceis, pera, pecunia hinc inde vigabantur, juxta Christi verba. Ascende…ant in tecta domorum, ex quibus habebant conciones, quia Christus dixisset, quae in aurem accepist is; annunciate in t…ctis. Pedes sibi invicem lavabant; cum puer is rep…erascebant, hoc est pueriliter se gerebant; uxores, liberos, domu…, opificia deserebant, quia Christus dixisset: nisi quis reliquerit do…um, uxorem, &c. propter me, non potest esse meus discipulus, Schlu…leb, de Secta Anabaptist.Schlusselburgius writes also, that there is a sort of Anabaptists cal'd Apostolici, so named because they professed to imitate the Apostles in all things, they washed one anothers feet, they held all things ought to be common, they travailed up and downe without staffe, shooes, cloake, money, because of Christs words, they went up to the tops of houses to preach, because Christ had said, what you have heard in the eare, preach upon the house top. Now how farre the want of these limitations and distinctions in this your first rule hath led some of you into errors and strange practises and may leade you further, as into annoynting the sick with oyle, baptising in rivers, &c. I leave you to consider of.

But yet this first and great principle upon which you went and reared up your new Church way, how difficult and abstruse a rule, p. 78and how doubtfull a ground-worke doe you make it, before you passe from it, by making that supposition upon it, If the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed. And that you cannot professe that sufficiency of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules, &c. Now then brethren consider with your selves according to your owne grant, how for all this principle of the Primitive patterne to guide you by, yet it being so hard to know and find out the way, and you not having that sufficiencie of knowledge to lay forth the rules, how easily might you be out of the way then for all this principle, and how can we indeed thinke otherwise of you, being a few men and going by your selves: So that supposing the Apostolicall directions and Primitive examples of the Churches (not excluding the Old Testament and Gospels) to be the only rule of the outward administration and government of the visible Church, and granting these were more especially in your eye to guide and steere your practise by, (considering by your own confession there is so much difficulty to make these out, and to lay downe what is a binding and standing direction, and what not, what is meerly circumstantiall and what not, and how to apply many things which fall out to such rules and such examples recorded;) Yet wee may see, how unsafe and dangerous it was for you, and for a few persons to set up Churches and Church-government, and we may hence learne, what great use and need there is of Synods and Assemblies to draw out Church-government and discipline, and still in all difficult cases to meet for the debating and determining of things. And by the way let me admonish many of your followers of their boldnesse and rashnesle of determining in matters of Church-government, and order, holding all things about discipline and Church-government to be so manifestly and clearely laid downe in the Scriptures, as the light of the Sunne, and thereupon censuring many for not holding with them, imputing it to their want of self-deniall and spirituall knowledge: By this they may see their great Leaders judge otherwise, who speaking upon the Scriptures being a compleate rule to make the Churches perfect, put in a caution, and declare, They cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge, as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein, p. 79which may meet with all cases and emergencies that may or sometimes did fall out amongst them. Now if the Apologists, men so able cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge, &c. who yet according to their owne Narration tell us, how they saw the darke part before many others, and how they had all that light of the Non-conformists, Reformed-churches, New-England, &c. What shall we thinke of a few private illiterate Christians setting up of Churches, and framing a government, will this assure them (though the Scriptures be a perfect rule for Church-government, and this is the supreme rule they goe by) that therefore they are in the right, certainly the great difficultie in knowing and finding out the directions and examples, and in applying them aright, and their weake knowledge will give ground sufficient to all reasonable men to suspect the contrary. And for your selves Brethren, the Reader hath greater reason to judge from what you here grant about the difficultie of the Scriptures in the Church-way, and your insufficiencie and ignorance in many cases and to many queries, that you might be out of the way, then from the sufficiency of the Scriptures to make Churches perfect, and your making the Scriptures your supreame rule, that you only should be in the right; and withall taking-in this, that the Reformed Churches you depart from, (and all along reflect upon in this Apologeticall Narration,) holding the Scriptures (in a true sense) to have a perfection for Church-government, and setting them up as the supreame rule to eye continually, and having the great advantage of you knowing the directions and examples in Scripture better then you by reason of their great learning, numbers, long studying these points, all you speake here of this principle as a ground to take men with and possesse the Readers of the truthof your way rather then theirs, hath no strength in it, but the scale of sufficiencie of knowledg and ability of finding out the rules and applying, being heavier on the Reformed Churches side, and the other scale of making the Scriptures the rule, equall to yours also; you must needs be found light compared with them. But after your supposition of the great difficulty of understanding this rule, and profession of the non-sufficiencie of your knowledge, by which you weaken so much what you would gaine by the narration of setting up this first principle, as the supreame p. 80rule without you, yet, before you leave it, in the following words you seeme to affirme it, Indeed interfeering and hovering about, not knowing well where to light and to settle between the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to all Church matters, and the difficultie of finding out the rules and directions (As the precedent words and subsequent put together doe shew) For you found principles enough not only fundamentall and essentiall, but superstructorie also, and those to you cleare and certaine, and such as might well serve, &c. Now let the Reader judge, if these words doe not not declare a sufficiencie of your knowledge without either Ifs or Ands: But you must pardon me, if I doe not beleeve, you found principles enough superstructorie and that upon these two following grounds.