Full Answer to Apologetical Narration, Text (5 of 8)

Full Answer to Apologetical Narration · Text (5 of 8)

p. 154Secondly, In the civill Magistrates power you granting that ought to back and assist the sentence of non-communion against p. 155Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime, and you giving more (as you think) to the Magistrates power in matters Ecclesiasticall then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to ye…ld, your way of Church proceeding will be every way as effectuall as the Presbyterians. I answer, supposing all that you say of giving so much power to the Magistrate, &c, were true, yet that makes not your submission and non-communion so effectuall a meanes as excommunication, for the question is about Ecclesiasticall authority and spirituall power, and about spirituall meanes and remedies for the conscience and soule, and not about civill power, and civill externall meanes▪ and I would aske you this question upon this passage of the civill Magistrate, either you give him an Ecclesiasticall spirituall power of applying spirituall remedies and meanes to Churches miscarrying, or you doe not, if you give him not this first (as I judge your principles will not allow you) he being no Church-officer of Christs …hurch, but only Christ gave Pastors, teachers, &c. as necessary and sufficient for the government of his Church, then all you say of the Magistrate helps you not, 'tis nothing to the question in hand; but before I speake any more to that point, that the Magistrates power backing your sentence of non-communion is not comparable to the Presbyterian way, I must animadvert upon the passage it selfe both in the comparative of your saying, you thinke you give more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterians, and upon the positive what you give them.

1. For the comparison, 'tis an odious and dangerous insinuation to prepare King and Parliament to reject the Presbyterie, as not giving so much to Magistrates in matters of Religion and Church government as is their due, and 'tis scandalous against Scotland and all the reformed Churches: but what's the maine …nd of it, or what may be conceived the reason of your saying you give so much to the Magistrates power, and more then the Presbyterians, (seeing men of your Church principles were never guilty yet of giving too much Ecclesiasticall power to Magistrates: you are the first Independents, and this is the first time that ever publikely you have exprest your selves thus,) I judge you being Politicians (Politici Theologi) to flatter the Parliament at this time the better to work p. 156your ends for a toleration, and to promote your Church-way you write thus: 'Tis observed by Learned men, that amongst the principall attempts and policies of the Remonstrants whereby they laboured to bring the Churches of the Netherlands into commotion, and to obtaine their own ends, this was a great one, the crying up the power of the civil Magistrate, both by writing of Bookes of their great power in Ecclesiasticals, and in their Sermons every where, and their aspersing the orthodox Ministers and their lawfull meetings and Ecclesiasticall actions with the contrary, and amongst many other particulars of the great power they gave the Magistrates in Ecclesiasticals this was one, that they did ascribe to the Magistrate the ultimate and highest jurisdiction and power of giving judgement in Ecclesiasticall matters, reasoning, that unto the Magistrate alone immediately under Christ did belong the judgement when controversies of faith did arise in the Church; And therefore after the Arminians despaired of prevailing by the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies, they brought and removed their cause from the Ecclesiasticall cognizance to another Court, by their policie and artifices, making use of the Authoritie of one or two chiefe men in place to worke for them: And that this new-way might have some colour and that so much the more easily the favour of many Politicians, or at least a toleration might be procured for these Arminian novelties, there was a booke set forth by Uttenbogardus, de Iure Supremi Magistratus in Ecclesiasticis; Many other of the Arminians also sung the same song, as Episcopius printed a Disputation de Iure Magistratus circa sacra, Barlaeus, Grotius, &c. And besides all these, there was a great number of books put forth in the vulgar and mother tongue of the power and authority of the Magistrates: And thus whilst the Magistrates let the Arminians alon…, and did nothing against them, even till the Synod of Dort in the yeare 1618. they slattered them thus: But after the Synod of Dort had determined against their opinions, and that the Magistrates were agai…t them, then they lifted up the heele and then they write books in a farre other stile, and in their Apologie, that power which before they had so liberally measured out for them, they did not a little limit, and contract, and p. 157offended as much in the defect, giving Magistrates too little, as before they had in the excesse, giving them too much: For the full proofe of this I referre the Reader to learned aaVoetius select. Disput. de quaestione pe…es quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica, Thes 1. Thes. 4 Thes. 5. Ut autē n ovu… hic agendi modus colorem aliquem haberet. & tanto facilius mult…rum politicorum savor, aut saltem Tolerantia Remonstranticis novi…atibus conciaretur, editu… est ab Iohanne Vttenbogardo Ecclesialiste tunc Hag… cometano tractatus de jure supremi Magistratus in Ecclesiasticis. E…ita fuerunt Grotij piet as ordinum, Episcopij disputatio de jure magistratus circa sacra, Barlei declamatio seu Philippica quaedam in ministros qui orthodoxam & receptam religionem tuebantur, &c. Praeter quae, vulgares & vernaculi libelli, quorum numerus innumerus, & consiones Remonstrantium nihil aliud quam authoritatem & potestatem magistratuum perstrepebant: & nescio qua invidia orthodoxos pastores, …orum que legitimos co…ventus & actiones Ecclesiasticas gravabant. Et hac quidem inprimis in dictis duabus provincij… ▪ nam in Geldria aliter canebant, aut Mussitabant: quod Ill. Curja conatibus ipsorum minimè faveret. Idem fere accidebat in Frisia Amstelredami, at que alibi, ubi magistratus omnia contra Presbyteria & pastores non statuebat ex …, aut in favorem Remonstrantium. Post habitam synodum Dordracenam, libelli ipsorum vernaculi longè alio stilo conscripti sunt, quin & in ipsa Apologia (quam tamen magistratibus probari volebant) cap. 25. potestatem hanc non parum limitant ac contrahunt, quam tamen tam liberaliter ante hac ad mens… erant.1 Thess 4Voetius select disputations concerning that question, penes quos sit potestas ecclesiastica (where he doth at large relate this and their opinions about the Magistrates power, after the Synod of Dort:) and unto bbVedelius de Episcop. Constant. magni. pag. 3, 4, 5, 6. Arminiani è contrario in excessu peccant, Etenim ante Synodum Dordracenam contendebant, sub magistratu orthodoxo Ecclesiam per se nullam babere potestatem spiritualem: ministros Ecclesiae officio suo defungi nomine magistratus, ita ut magistratus, quia ipse per alia negotia concionari, &c. non possit, per ministros doceat qui vices ipsius gerant in docendo, quem admndum vicarius Trajani Imperatoris vices gerebat sui Imperatoris. Et sic ministros non habere suam potes…atem à Christo, sed à Magistratu, qui & quidem solus eam potestatem immediatè à Christo acceperit: Gubernationem Ecclesiae assignabant soli magistratui, ab ea excludentes ministros, nisi in quantum essent vicarij & instrumenta, seu servi magistratus: Speciatim electionem ministrorum seu vocationem, item dopositionem tribuebant soli magistra…, &c. Contendebant etiamad solum magistratum immediatè sub Christo pertine… judicium quando controversiae sidei …rtae sunt in Ecclesia, Post Synodum in Confess. & Apol. cap. 25. negant eju… jus aut officium esse, ad decreta Synodica, ut ut verbo Dei conformia sint, observanda obligare …omines sua auctoritate & potestate ulla coactiva uti in ea parte, negant etiam magistratum ju… habere in privatos conventus, sed tantum in exercitia quae in templis seu locis publicis ad magistratum pertinentibu… instituuntur. Nam cum rebus sua ita consultum putarent, aliter statueba…t & contrarium, quam admodum alibi a nobis est ostensum.Vedelius de Episcopatu Constantini magni (who as all men know gives in that booke power enough to Magistrates in Ecclesiasticals) yet he layes down at large, that as the Anabaptists and Socinians following the Donatists, give too little to the Magistrate, so the Arminians did offend in the excesse. For before p. 158the Synod of Dort they contended, that under the Orthodox Magistrate the Church had of it selfe no spirituall power. The Ministers of the Church did performe their office in the name of the Magistrate, so that the Magistrate, because he for other businesses could not preach, &c. he did preach by the Ministers; they gave the government of the Church to the Magistrates alone, they gave the calling of Ministers and their deposing to the Magistrate alone, with many other such, but af…er the Synod they denie 'tis their right and office to oblige men by their authoritie to the decrees of Synods however agreeable to the word, or to use any coactive power in that case, &c. in which they take away as much from the Magistrate, as in other things they seemed to give: And it may be feared however these Apologists now to ingratiate themselves, and being left alone in their Church-way, say, they give more to the Magistrates then the Presbyteriall, and that they professe to submit, and to be most willing to have recourse to the Magistrates judgement and cognizance, and examination of Ecclesiasticall causes, yet when they shall come once to be crossed, and the Parliament by the advise of the Assembly to settle the government of the Church, and by their authoritie to bind them to the things agreeable to the word, we shall see then what they will say of the Magistrates power; there are too many speeches alreadie since the meeting of the Assembly (out of their feare how things may goe) which have fallen from many Independents, that prognosticate they will doe by the Parliament as the Remonstrants did after the Synod of Dort by the States. 2. But whatever you say here, that you think you give more to the Magistrates then the principles Robinson Apolog. cap. 11. de magistratu polit. Idem prorsus sentimus de magistratu et illius munere quod ecclesiae Belgicae & earum consession… hac in re, ex animo suffragamur.of the Presbyterian Government will suffer them to yeeld, I doe much doubt it, and doe judge that in many things you give no more in Ecclesiasticals then the Presbyterians, and in others you give lesse, and they give more. M. Robinson in his Apologie saith of himselfe and his Church, that in the point of the civill Magistrate and his office, they hold altogether the same thing which the Belgicke Churches doe, and that to their Confession in this point, they do ex animo agree. Now the Belgick Churches are Presbyterians, and your Church-way, & M. Robinsons differ not much, …o that till you know what you give more to the civill Magistrate, then p. 159M. Robinson and his Church doe, I cannot beleeve you, especially considering that M. Burroughes one of you in his Lectures upon Hosea, speaking of the power of Magistrates in Church affaires, Burroughs o… Hosea, sixt Lect. pag. 164, 165, 166. ^• Ju…us lib. 1. de Pontif. cap. 7 not. 2. Nos ita distinguamus, m…gistratus qua magistratu… est humanae societatis caput, humana ordinatione, qua Christianus vero est divinae societatis in Ecclesia membrum, divina ordinatione, & in eadem custos & vindex ordinis, ut membrum electum ipsius, & not. 4. se Christiani, s…t praestantia Ecclesiae membra. ^b Voetius Disp. de quaest, penes quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica. part. prim. Thes. 4. Thes. 5. Rejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstranti… cap. 25. Apolog quorum prius; non posse magistra…ii a… decreta Synodica ve…gives no more to them then the rigidest Presbyterians, namely, That the King is supreame governour to governe in a civill way by civill Lawes, so as to s… Christ not dishonoured, so as to keepe out Idolatry, to protect the Church, to punish enormitios that are there, to defind it from enemies: In that sense he is said to be the head, but that title of supreame Governour being understood in a civill way is more proper. Now it were easie out of Beza, Calvin, Zanchius, and many Presbyterians to show more power given to Kings by them in matters of Religion, then by M. Burroughes there, so that I have more reason to judge of your principles by what M. Burroughes writes particularly, and by way of answering doubts of conscience, then from a Narrration in generall, and from we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld. In other things you give not so much to the Magistrates, as the Presbyterians.

First, whereas the ^a Presbyterians doe acknowledge the Protestant Prince and Magistrate, an eminent member of the Church, and in their greatest Assemblies and Councels give him an eminent place and power, you according to your principles doe not owne him for a member of the Church, neither shall his children be admitted to Baptisme, nor he to the ordinances, though a Protestant and Orthodoxe, unlesse you account him a visible Saint, &c. neither doe you give him so much power or vote, no not in a particular Church in any Church matters of censures, admissions, election of officers, &c. as you doe give to one of your serving men, and the supreme Magistrate and his children though brought up, and professing the true Religion, may be and will be kept from the Sacraments all their dayes.

2. The Presbyterians give to the Magistrate a coercive and coactive power, to suppresse heresies, schisme, to correct troublers and unruly persons in the Church, to tie and bind men by their authoritie to the decrees of Synods made according to the word of God, which power as ^b Voetius showes, only the Remonstrants with the Libertines did not admit, but all the Presbyterians p. 160doe reject such opinions, that the Magistrate could not by his Dei consor…ia observandum sua authoritate obligare & con. stringere.authoritie bind and compell men to observe the decrees of Synods, conformable to the word of God ccApollo…. ju… majest. circa. sacra par. post: cap 3 exam. qu. 12. statuimus quo… magistratus potestatem habeat coactivam, qua res Ecclesiasticas ex praescripto verbi Dei constitut as, legitima via urget, & subdit is imponit ad disciplinam Ecclesiae stabiliendā, & Ecclesiasticum tuendum ordinem., now doe you allow the Magistrates such a power? By your pleading for tolerations of Religion, and for liberty of conscience, and that conscience is not to be tied, and by your speaking against impositions of things lawfull and agreeable to the word, as set formes of prayer, decreed by Synods and such like, 'tis very suspitious you allow not such a power to Magistrates, and your good friend ddM. S to A. S. p. 55, 5…, 57, 58, 59, …0.M. S. in his answer to the observations and considerations upon your Apologeticall Narration pleading your cause denies, and pleads against this coercive power of the Magistrate.

3. The Presbyterians give a great deale of power to the supreme Christian Magistrate in the Reformation of Religion, and in repairing and building the house of God, as might be showne out of Calvin, Zanchius, Peter Martyr, &c. but whether the Independents give as much, when they allow private men to gather and make Churches and Ministers, to do such publike workes, and that without leave, nay against the mind and laws of the supreame Magistrate, I question: There is a Tractate in my hands about a Church, that goes under the name of one of you, wherein civill Magistrates are cut off, and Ministers too from having any power to make Churches, and the immediate Independent power from Christ is given to the Saints onelyonly, to gather and combine themselves in such an Assembly without expecting warrant from any Governours what soever upon earth: Saints as Saints have a right and full power to cast themselves into the fellowship without asking the consent of Governours and civill Magistrates, who have no power in the marriage of their people, nor should have, it being an act of naturall civill right, and as Magistrates have no power over Family-government to appoint whom I shall admit into my Family, &c. much lesse have they power over Christs Family; this union of a Church is a spirituall right which is transcendently out of the sphere of the Magistrates authoritie, and the Apostles taught the Saints to doe it without asking leave of the Magistrates, yea not to for sake it though the Magistrates forbad it, Heb. 10. 25. Now p. 161I beleeve you cannot show me any principle in Presbyteriall Government, nor quote me the judgement of any Presbyterian that cuts short the power of the Orthodox Protestant Magistrate about Congregations and Assemblies as this doth.

4. The Presbyterians doe grant the Magistrate a power about the publick exercise of the Ministerie, that 'tis so farre subject to the direction of the Magistrate, that without his approbative authoritie or confirming authoritie, or his toleration of it, it ought not by the Church to be publikely begun in his territories nor practised. **Concedendum publicum ministerij … …um omnibus sui… circ…mstantijs politicis & foreign consideratum, eate. nus magistratus directioni subjectum esse. quod abs que authoritate ejus approbativa, seu confirmativa, seu to…erantiae jurisdictione, ab Ecclesia publicè in ejus ditioneinstitui, & cum a…paratu politico executioni mā dari non possit; nisi leges Reipublic… junda. mentales subditis id concedant & tribuant. Apollon. jus majestatis circa sacra. par. post. cap. 3. Exam. quaest. d… decimae.Apollonius of Zeland who writ an answer to Vedellius by the command of the Wa…achrian Classis, was a great Presbyterian; and in that answer must needs show it, upon occasion of Vedelius giving so much to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things, yet he grants the Magistrate this power about the exercise of the Ministerie. Now whether your principles allow this to the Magistrate, let your practises speake about your making Ministers and exercising of it as you doe.

5. The Presbyterians grant to the Magistrates a power in private meetings as well as in publicke Churches, over exercises there, as well as those in the publick places: So aaRejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstrantiam: Magistratus nullam esse potestate… in priva…s conven…us, sed … tum in publica tempta. Voet. disput penes quos sit potest as Eccl. Thes. 4.Voetius, We reject that noveltie of the Remonstrants that the Magistrate hath no power in private meetings, but onelyonly in publike Temples: Now whether you allow the Magistrates a power concerning your private meetings, or onelyonly over the publike meetings, or whether you doe not with the Arminians make the ground of this power in the Magistrate, the granting of a publike meeting-place, I desire to be satisfied from you. But by all this the Reader may see in these particulars you doe not give more power to the Magistrate; for the Presbyterians give what you give, and not onelyonly so, but they give that which you denie, and so give more then you: But Brethren wherein and in what doe you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians? Had you exprest, wherein the Presbyterians give too little to the Magistrates power, and in what their principles are defective, and wherein you give more, you had dealt fairely and ingeniously, and a man might have knowne where to have had you, and how to have answered you, but to accuse thus in the generall, and not to signifie p. 162the crime is not just; but as you do throughout your Apologie under the figge-leaves of darke, doubtfull, generall speeches, cover your opinions, least your nakednesse should appeare, so in this place: but not to let you goe away thus, but that I may drive you out of your holes and thickets and divest you of your coverings, and that I may a little take off the Odium and suspition that Presbyteriall Government may lie under amongst many who know not their principles by reason of this passage of yours, (The Magistrates power to which we give as much, and (as we thinke) more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld) I will propound some questions to you to draw out what you hold about the power of the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things, and to give some further light for the present of the Presbyterian principles concerning the power of Magistrates (referving the particular laying downe what the Presbyterians give to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things and what not, till my Rejoynder shall come out to your Replie.)

1. Whether the power of the Magistrate about Ecclesiasticall things be a power extrinsecall, objective, coercive, indirect, mediate, accidentall and consequent, or spirituall intrinsecall, formall, proper and antecedent: Now concerning the first, the Presbyterians give as much to the Magistrate as you, nay more, as hath been partly shewed alreadie: but for the other the spirituall, intrinsecall, formall, &c. If you ascribe that to the Magistrate, as I thinke you doe not, nor your principles do not yeeld it; unlesse according to your second great principle laid downe in the 10. and 11. page, you are since the Assembly to please the Parliament the more (as you may imagine come off from your former judgement and practise.) I doe referre you for satisfaction to the three most learned, select Disputations of aaDe quest. Penes quos sit potest as Ecclesiastica.Voetius and unto bbWale. Tractde officio ministrorum, & authoritate at que inspectione qua magistratus super ministros haber… debet.Wa…us excellent answer to the tractate of Uttengobardus (so strong that the Authour could never reply againe, though in a booke published he promised to doe it,) and unto ccApollon. sus majestat… circasacra.Apollonius learned answer to Vedelius Dissertation.

2. I aske of you whether the civill power doth containe the Ecclesiasticall formally and eminently, so as that power can give and produce the other? or whether there is an intrinsecall dependance p. 163of the Ecclesiasticall upon the Politicall in their nature, forme, and exercise of them? or whether there doth not reside in the Church all Ecclesiasticall power absolutely necessarie to the building up of the Kingdome of Christ, and salvation of men, even when the Magistrate is not of the Church?

3. I aske of you whether in writing this passage of your Apologie you considered and remembred all those differences and distinctions given by so many excellent Divines, as Iunius, Zanchius, Amesius, &c. concerning those two powers, Civill and Ecclesiasticall, and their Administration, and in particular amongst the rest, that difference taken from their ddAltera differentia d wateria sumitur, subjecto que administrationum. Politicae administrationis sub. jectum esse res humanas in des…tione nostra posuimus, ecclesiasticae divin… esse & sacras docuimus. Iunius Eccles. l. 3. c. 4.Sir 50:3matter, and the subject, wherein they make the subject of politicall administration to be humane things and matters, but of Ecclesiasticall to be divine and sacred, and if so, whether doe not Presbyterians according to those differences and distinctions (which distinctions are acknowledged also by your selves, as by M. Robinson and by some of you in your printed bookes (as I remember) give the Magistrate that power in Ecclesiasticals which is given him in the word of God.

4. Considering all Ecclesiasticall power and right is commonly by Divines reduced to a three-fold head, namely potestas foreign, which of these powers doe you give more to the Magistrates then the Presbyterians, or in all of them doe you give more, or doe you not? For the present that power you seem to give the Magistrate, and intimate it that you give more then the Pres…eriall principles allow (as may be gathered from the following words in p. 19. & from those words in p. 17. The Magistrates interposing a power of an other nature, unto which we upon his particular coguizance and examination of such causes profes ever to submit, and also to be most willing to have recourse unto) must fall under the last head of the power of judging and determining in matters Ecclesiastical, and that upon complaints and appeals; now the Presbyterians in that give the Magistrate a power about the use and abuse of Ecclesiasticall discipline and Ecclesiasticall Causes and businesses, yea and definitive to, namely, a politicall, objective, consequent power, which may be diversly exercised, both ordinarily and extraordinarily in a Church constituted and in p. 164a good estate, and in a Church fallen and corrupted; Voetius in his disputations upon that question: In whose hands the Ecclesiasticall Habere magistratum qua talem publicam potestatem judicialem seu judicandi, judicio cognitionis non tantum, sed & decinitivo de negot ijs & caufis Ecclesiasticis. Quod judici… consequens …st, non antecedens (ne que enim sunt foreign in Ecclesia) adhaec praesuppositive est Theologicum, sed formaliter politicum; quia disquisitio ultimata in eo non est, an hoc sit verum, sed an velint illud publica authoritate tueri & exequi. Voet de quaest penes quos sit potest as Eccl. par. 1. Thes 4. Apoll …us majest. circa sacra. cap. a par. post. pag. 63, 64, 65, 6…, 67, 68.1 Thess 4power is (a great Presbyterian in that question) grants and gives to the Magistrate a publick judiciall power of judging, not onelyonly with the judgement of knowledge, but definitive in causes and matters Ecclesiasticall, which judgement is consequent, not antecedent, because the ultimate disquisition is not in that, whether that be true, but whether they will by publicke Authoritie maintaine and execute that. So * Apollonius in his Answer to Vedelius where he strongly pleads for the Presbyterians in that point of Ecclesiasticall power, yet gives much to the Magistrate ordinarily in a Church constituted and well reformed in the point of this part of power, and extraordinarily in the state of a Church corrupted, and greatly disordered, when the doctrine is corrupted, and the Sacraments contaminated with idolatrous rites, and discipline turned into tyrannie, and when the Ministerie and all Ecclesiasticall meetings both inferiour and superiour conspire to oppresse the truth of God, and to establish tyrannie in the Church, in such cases the Magistrate may do many things besides the ordinary way: now let me entreate you to consult the books of the Presbyterians, and especially Apollonius answer to Vedelius of the severall particulars of the power of Magistrates about the use and abuse of discipline in a constituted Church, besides the power given them in extraordinarie cases, and in your Reply to this Answer satisfie me what you give more. But let me tell you whatever power you five may have found out for the Magistrate, which the principles of Presbyteriall government will not suffer them to yeeld (some new power may be like that devise of Non-communion of Churches, and Protestation to all Churches that they may doe the like) yet your Churches may not grant it, and so the Magistrates shall be never the nearer; the power you give the Magistrate in the 17. and 19. pag. is not yeelded by many of your own Churches whereof you are Ministers; A Gentleman, a prime member of one of your Churches immediately after the comming forth of your Apologeticall Narration disclaimed and renounced that power of the Magistrate exprest by you, in the hearing of a Minister, a member of the Assembly, who related it to me. But p. 165what is it wherein you give more to the Magistrates, sure there is something you meane and aime at in it, if we could find it out; suffer me to guesse at it, and you shall see though you doe not formally expresse so much, yet I have some reason to judge so: First, Doe you not meane in this phrase, the Magistrates power, to which we give as much, and as we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld, that your Churchway consisting all of particular Congregations, and not growing into great bodies by combinations and Synods, the Magistrates power is greater over you, in that he may easily deale with you, and dissolve you at pleasure; but for a power to grow into so great a body, an Ecclesiasticall power as large as the civill, so combined, this may be formidable and dangerous to the State, and too great for the Magistrate hereafter to rectifie; this hath been by an active Independent upon discourse of these points suggested to me, and how farre one of you hath reasoned thus in the hearing of many, against Presbyteriall government, and for Congregationall, you can remember: Or secondly, Doe you understand by this phrase, that when heresies, schismes or strange opinions are broacht in your Churches, and you cannot tell what to doe with them, nor how to suppresse them, nor how to have the persons censured, being so powerfull in particular Congregations whereof they are members, in such a case you give the civill Magistrate a power to question them for these heresies, schismes, and to imprison, banish, &c. if they doe not revoke them; New-England practising the way of Independencie, and not having Classes, Synods, that have authoritative power to call to account and censure such persons, were necessitated to make use of the Magistrates, and to give the more to them, a power of questioning for doctrines, and judging of errors; and punishing with imprisonment, banishment, and they found out a prety fine destinction to deceive themselves with, and to salve the contrariety of this practise to some other principles, that the Magistrate questioned and punished for these opinions and errors (which now for want of Ecclesiasticall discipline and censure they knew not what to doe with) not as heresies and such opinions, but as breaches of the civill peace, and disturbances to the Common-wealth, (which distinction if the Parliament would p. 166have learned from you, and proceeded upon, they might long agoe have put downe all your Churches and Congregations, and justly have dealt with you, as the Magistrates in New-England did with M^r Williams and the Antinomians, Familists and Anabaptists there, and yet have said they punished you not for your consciences, nor because of such opinions, but because your opinions, ways and practises were an occasion of much hurt to the Common-wealth, a breach of civill peace, a great cause of many people sitting so loose from the Parliament, a great hinderance to the Reformation, and a ground of much distraction to the publike, and of strengthening the enemy,) whereas the Presbyterians give the power in cases of heresies, errors, &c. that are not remedied in the particular Congregation, to Classes, Synods, Assemblies, to question, convince, judge of, censure and to apply spirituall remedies proper to spirituall diseases, which I am confident of, had such been in New-England in the Presbyteriall way, there had never beene so many imprisoned, banished for errors, nor the Magistrates put upon that distinction. Or thirdly, Is it that you doe give a power to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things of the ultimate determination of matters purely Ecclesiasticall (which the Presbyterians principles doe not) as now in matters of doctrine, and in matters of scandall, and in matters of censures, excommunication, deposition, &c. which are brought before and have past in Ecclesiasticall Assemblies, to appeale from them to the civill Magistrate, and to carry causes from thence to civill Courts, to repeale and revoke them; Your words and passages about the Magistrates power imply this, and I find that many quick sighted men as the Walachrian classis, nay a whole Synod after them in their late Letters to the Assembly apprehend you so, and therefore I may upon good grounds judge, besides the two former, that you aime at this third, in saying you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians: Concerning which question, it being a point that I have not much studied, I shall not declare my judgement in it; But in the Church of Israel it seemes that in the things of Jehovah the last judgement did belong to the chiefe Ecclesiasticall Assembly which sate at Ierusalem, Deut. 17. 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 verses, as Iunius in his Analisis illustrates that p. 167place, and the arguments brought by Apollonius in this point, Apollon. …s majest. circa sacra, cap. 2. examen quaestionis septimae.with his answers to Vedelius arguments have a great deale of strength in them, and I entreate you in your Reply, if you will formally owne the giving of this power to the Magistrate, that you will answer that second chapter of Apollonius.

But to draw toward a conclusion of the comparison of the effectualnesse between the two wayes, supposing all you say of Submission, Non-communion, Protestation were true, as also that you did give more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterian, and that in spirituall matters, in cases of difference, injuries, &c. you would from the Church have recourse to the Magistrate and submit to his judgement, and that you did allow and would stand to the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime, as they judge meet; (notwithstanding you have determined it, that without all controversie your way of Church proceeding will be every way as effectuall as the other can be supposed to be,) yet I must tell you, it falls farre short of the Presbyterian way, both in preventing and remedying sins, errors, offences, and in promoting knowledge, godlinesse and peace in the Churches; For suppose non-communion of Churches were a way of Christ and a remedie (the contrary to which I have at large showne,) yet you must confesse 'tis but a lower remedy, not an authoritative, powererfull, dreadfull remedie and meanes like that of excommunication, which is the highest and greatest censure in the Church, the Churches thunderbolt, and Anathema, a remedy and last meanes, which recovers a sinner when all others will not, as admonition, suspension, deposition, and so when non-communion and Protestation will not: In the Scriptures are laid downe many eminent fruits and effects of excommunication in the people of God, which are not of any censure else, and I might fill a book with the ends, benefits and fruits of this censure laid down by Divines in their Tractates and common places of Ecclesiasticall discipline and excommunication, but I will name only that of the Professors of Leyden: **Nam & remedium extre…um at que acer…mum est ad carnem in homine domandā, ac spiritum vivisicandum, & exemplum efficacissimum, ne pars sincera …rabatur, adversus ver… eas qui in contunacia & imp…itentia perseverant medium unicum ad Dei domum fermento & Ecclesia Christi scandalia liberandam, at que adeo verbum & sacramenta a pro pbanatione & nomen Dei ab externorum blasphematione vindicandum, Synops: Punor. Theol. Disput. 48. de Eccl. discipl. thes. 59.Excommunication is the last remedie and the sharpest for the subduing of the flesh in a man, and for the quickning of the spirit: and the most efficacious example least the sound p. 168part should be corrupted: But against them, who persevere in their contumacie and impenitencie 'tis the only meanes to free the house of God of leaven, and the Church of Christ from scandals; and so to vindicate the Word and Sacraments from prophanation, and the Name of God from the blaspheming of them without. Now pray shew us in the Scripture any where, the excellent fruits, benefits, ends of non-communion of Churches and Protestation against them, as we can of excommunication in 1 Cor. 5. 5. 2 Cor. 2. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. 2 Thess. 3. 14. 1 Tim. 1. 20. And then for that other remedie of the Magistrates power added to non-communion, to eeke out wherein non-communion may be defective to excommunication, and for that purpose you say you give more to the Magistrates power, that so what you faile and come short in Ecclesiasticall power, you may make it up in giving more civill power in Ecclesiasticall causes, the result of which must needs be this, that though in your Church-way, you have not so much Ecclesiasticall authoritative power for miscarriages, and for reducing Churches that fall into heresie and schisme, yet you give more civill power, and allow the Magistrate more to interpose for helping and reducing, so that lesse Ecclesiasticall power and authority with a large civill power to back it, will be every way as effectuall as much Ecclesiasticall authority, with a small civill power: But of this I shall shew you your mistake, because the question is of Church matters, and matters of conscience and the inward man, and of the Kingdom of Christ: Now the remedies and meanes appointed for these are spirituall and Ecclesiasticall; namely spirituall punishments: Christ saith my Kingdom is not of this world; and the Apostle, 2 Cor. 10. 3, 4, 5. The weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mighty through God to the pulling downe of strong holds, by which the spirit and the inward man, even every thought is subjected to the obedience of Christ, spirituall remedies and meanes must be used in the Kingdome of Christ, and by them Christ doth his worke, and hence in Ecclesiasticall discipline, and those scandalls in the Church (which is the point in hand) punishments in the body or in the purse, &c. which can be by the power of the Magistrate, have no place at all; **Illa vero quae a spirituall Christi regno aliena sunt, effectus, qui ad hoc coeleste Christi regnil pertinent producere nequeunt, proinde quod institutione divina ad eos producendos non sunt sanctificata.neither can such meanes which are of a different kind from the p. 169spirituall Kingdome of Christ, produce those effects which belong Disciplina … c. clesiastica nihil statuit in hominum bona, jura, dignitates, fortunas, &c. Sed paena quae clavium potestate in…gitur spiritualis & qu… hominem internum est spiritualem, ejus slatum concernit. At veroextra speram activitatis politici Magistratus est internum hominem subigers, spiritutiem poenam conscient ijs inferre, vel hominii animas ab ijs liberare. Apoll. …us Majes… ▪ circa sacra. cap. a. exam. quest. 7. pag. 10….to that heavenly Kingdome: 'Tis out of the sphere of the activity of the politicall Magistrate to subdue the inward man, or to inflict spirituall punishment upon the consciences: And there is nothing more common in the writings of the most learned and orthodox Divines, then to shew that the civill power and government of the Magistrate, and the Ecclesiasticall government of the Church are toto genere disjoyned, and thereupon the power of the Magistrate by which he deales with the corrupt manners and disorders of his people, is in the nature and specificall reason distinct from Ecclesiasticall discipline. For the power of the Magistrate, by which he punishes sin, doth not subserve to the Kingdome of Christ the Mediator, that he may apply efficaciously to the elect foreign of the Propheticall and Priestly office of Christ; he doth not affect the inward man and conscience with spirituall punishment, neither is this instituted of God and sanctified as the meanes for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ. Hence also by Divines, the manifold difference between the censure of excommunication and the punishment of the Magistrate is observed, **Zanch. de Discipl. Eccl.Zanchius doth accurately shew the difference between them, The cause of excommunication is not the punishment of sinne, but the salvation of the sinner, and the edification of the Church, and the glory of God: but the scope of the civill Magistrate and his office, is that he should punish the sinne it selfe, neither d…th it looke to the salvation or damnation of the offender: whereupon although the sinner repent, yet he doth not spare, but punisheth according to his office: But the Church according to Christs doctrine doth not strike with the spirituall sword, unlesse he be impenitent, neither is this done for death but for salvation, therefore where any one rep…nts, the Church receives him: so that in substituting the Magistrates power in defect of excommunication, and giving a great deale more civill power for want of spirituall to make it as availeable for those spirituall ends of the Church, is to leave the proper remedies and meanes, and to take up others; and I would desire you to answer me, whether the proper remedies and meanes appointed for such ends and uses, or the improper remedies, nay remedies p. 170appointed and intended mainly for other ends, be most effectuall and powerfull to accomplish those ends? as also whether a part of a proper remedy being assisted and backt with a great proportion of a remedy of another nature and kind, can be as effectuall as the whole remedy and meanes? as for instance, whether a little grace assisted by civility and fairenesse of nature, will doe as much to overcome lusts and destroy the flesh, as the highest degrees of grace that Saints may attaine unto? and whether a little spirituall knowledge, seconded with a great deale of common and outward Ad b…c multa etiam sunt scelera. in quae ne Magistratus quidem Christianus animadvertere so let aut tenetur ex legibus suis, v…uti sunt privatae in … tiae, simultaies, participatio …um idalolatris in aliquo impio cultu, dissimulatio verae religionis: deni… multi ma… mores, tum domestick, tum publick, qui non turbant aut pac…m publicam, aut honestatē, & commodum publicum… Ec…lesia vero ne …sta quidem ferre debet sed corrigere juxta Christi iusti… tum, Zanch. de Discip Ecclesiast.knowledge, is as availeable for a Christian conversation as great measures of spirituall knowledge, though a man have but a little knowledge in Philosophy, Physick, Law? &c. But more particularly to let you see, that your recourse unto the Magistrate and the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion is not comparable to that of excommunication and Presbyteriall government; I shall commend to your consideration these eight following particulars;

First, There may be many sins and errors which the Christian Magistrate meddles not with, are not matters of his cognisance, if you would have recourse to him, or if the sentence of non-communion be pronounced against a Church because of impenitencie in them, he hath nothing to doe to assist and back it; there are no laws for such things, which yet being spirituall evills and prejudiciall to the souls of men, should be dealt with to recover men out of them: Learned Zanchius in his differences that he gives between the censure of excommunication and the Magistrates censure, observes this for a speciall one: There are many wickednesses against which the Magistrate truly Christian doth not use to proceed; neither is bound by his Laws; as for instance, private fallings out, hatreds, &c, as also many evill manners both domesticall and publike, which doe not disturbe the publike peace or the publike good, but the Church ought not to bare these, but to correct them according to Christs institution; Now what will you doe in this case, here your recourse of submission to the Magistrate, with the Magistrates backing non-communion faile you and conduce nothing at all.

Secondly; In case the Magistrates be of those Churches and p. 171chiefe in those sins, and miscarriages for which non-communion is denounced against those Churches (as may easily fall out) how will you have the sentence of non-communion now backed and assisted? both those Churches and the Magistrates members of them, shall have nothing to back non-communion, to make it equivalent to excommunication; nay I aske of you, who bring in more of the Magistrates power to supply the want of excommunication, where the particular Church will not, and the Classes may not, what shall be done with the Magistrates offending, what meanes hath God left for the recovery of them? you cannot imagine they will make use of their power against themselves, now if they may not have spirituall remedies and censure, as of excommunication, this principle of the Magistrates power falls short here, whereas in Presbyteriall government ther's a remedie and redresse for all, and certainly Gods ways of governing his Church provides for all, whereas yours falls short.

3. What if upon the sentence of non-communion denounced against a Church or Churches, the Magistrate judge otherwise, and hold the sentence of non-communion unjust and will not assist it, (which may ordinarily fall out) what effectuall meanes hath the offending Church of being reduced now by vertue of the Magistrates power? and what must be done in this case? May the Magistrate revoke that sentence of the Church, or Churches offended, and declare it null, and cause the Churches who passed the sentence to recall it, and to continue their communion? and suppose those Churches will not revoke it but stand to their act, what shall be done in this case? who must judge now between these Churches and the Magistrate? may the Magistrate now by his power which you give him in Ecclesiasticals, instead of backing the sentence of non-communion against a Church miscarrying (as the Church supposed) now turne his power against the Church for denouncing the sentence of non-communion uojustly (as the Magistrate judgeth) and not only declare it void, but punish this Church or Churches for denouncing such a sentence of non-communion, and declaring and protesting to all other Churches that they may doe the like? and what if all the Churches protested to, will continue to renounce communion with the Church censured with the sentence p. 172of non-communion, notwithstanding the Magistrates refusing to assist that sentence, nay though he declare it void? or what if upon the Magistrates declaration, some of the Churches give the righ-hand of fellowship againe, but others will not, what must the Magistrate, or the Churches doe in these cases, and the like? consider well of it, whether this effectuall way of yours, the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion, instead of a powerfull meanes to relieve injured persons, or reduce Churches, will not prove a meanes of great differences and divisions, as well between the Churches and the Magistrate, as between the Churches themselves.

4. Must the Magistrate assist and back the sentence of non-communion against the Church or Churches offending and persisting therein, upon the comming of it to him? and so punish it according to the nature of the crime as he judges meet, without first hearing what the Church can say for it selfe, or must he first heare them both? and in case more Churches mutually renounce communion with one another, and protest against each other, with other particulars instanced in about the remedie of non-communion under the fourth generall head, what shall he doe in these cases, must he heare all?

5. What Magistrate or Magistrates doe you meane, to whom in Ecclesiasticall causes you will have recourse unto, and that must assist and back the sentence of non-communion? Doe you meane the supreame and chiefe Magistrate, the highest powers only, or all inferiour Magistrates in their severall stations and divisions where these things fall out, as Majors of Cities and Townes, Justices of Peace and such Magistrates? or doe you meane the Christian Protestant Magistrate, or Magistrates, though Heathens, Popish, Arrians? or doe you meane by the Magistrates power that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature erected in every division of the Counties, to heare the differences that fall out between Churches offended one with another? &c. or what doe you meane? If you understand the supreame Magistrate only and the highest powers, can they alwayes heare or attend unto, through the many great businesses of State affaires, all the differences, scandals, schismes, that both in particular Churches, and betweene p. 173Churches will fall out in a Kingdome or Nation in this way of non-communion and protestation against one another? (especially in Independent Churches, where people make Churches and Ministers in that way they doe, and have no fixed rules nor certaine way) I warrant the supreame Magistrate, and higher Powers, Kings and Parliaments shall have something to doe to back the sentence of non-communion, and to heare all causes and differences: But if you understand the inferiors also, Majors, Bailiffs, &c. I represent it to you, what fit judges most of them are to judge and determine of such difficult Ecclesiasticall causes in heresies, schismes, scandals, &c. which fall out amongst the Ministers of Churches, and between Churches themselves: Againe, If you understand the Magistrate indefinitely and obsolutely, any Magistrate, though Heathen, Popish, Arrian, as M^r Robinson doth in his Apologie; and I find it in your manuscripts and principles, that you take it so; judge then in your selves if the Church hath not remedies among themselves; how fit are they who understand not Christian religion, nor the doctrines according to godlinesse, to judge of the great differences between Churches, and to assist the sentence of non-communion against Churches? if the Apostle Paul reproved the Corinthians so in 1 Cor. 6, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. for cariying matters from the Church (even the smallest matters, the things that pertained to this life) unto unbeleevers, how would he blame the carrying of things spirituall and Ecclesiasticall unto Heathen from the Ministers of the Church: or doe you understand, that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature to appeale unto, &c. then there must be certaine Laws and rules agreed upon, as for particular Churches, so between the Churches, according to which they must proceed to back the sentence of non-communion and protestation, &c. (which yet you practise not.) Now the many inconveniences that would come of such Courts you may easily fore-see, so that this is not like to be an effectuall remedy.

6. What shall be done in case there be no Magistrates at all, to take any notice, in matters of Religion and Church government, but leave Churches to themselves in that; as it was with you in Holland, there were no Magistrates medled with the government and order of your Churches, nor none to have recourse unto, or to p. 174backe the sentence of Non-communion, you being in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authoritie, either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced you, what shall in this case supply the defect of Excommunication, and of an Ecclesiasticall authoritative power? Hath not the wisdome of Christ provided remedies in the Church for all the internall necessities of the Church, and constituted it a perfect bodie within it selfe?

7. Whether can it be rationally and probably thought that in an ordinary way the having recourse unto the Magistrate though orthodox, and the submitting to his particular cognizance and examination of such causes, with his backing the sentence of Noncommunion in Ecclesiasticall causes, in cases of sinnes, errours, differences that arise in Churches, should be as effectuall and sufficient a remedie as the way of Classes and Synods? and that the Magistrates interposing their authoritie and power of another nature will be as good as the Authoritative Presbyteriall Governement in all the subordinations and proceedings of it: Now that 'tis not probable it should be, or that it should serve in stead of Synods and Classes, take these probable and rationall grounds. 1. All wanton wits and erroneous spirits, all your Sectaries and Novelists are rather for this way then for Synods and Classes, (though most of them would have neither to meddle at all in matters of Religion, as the Socinians, Anabaptists, &c.) Thus the Arminians were against Classes and Synods, and all for the power of Magistrates, and it was their chiefe Engine by which in those sad daies of the Netherlands, they encreased their partie, and came to such a height. Sectaries hope that if they can decline the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies, they sha'l what by flatterie, and what by delay (through other great businesses of State) and what by sophismes and fallacies, and what from principles of policie in many States-men, and what by friends, &c. effect that which they have no hopes at all by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies, they know the Presbyteries and Synods are able to discover their fallacies, answer their arguments, will mind those businesses wholly, are not to be wrought upon by State principles, &c. Now if in experience and reason, this way were as powerfull to reduce a p. 175Church or Churches from schisme and heresie, they would never be so much for this way rather then Presbyterie. 2. Naturall reason dictates that they are best able and fittest to judge and resolve of things, who doe above others give themselves to the studie and profession of those things, as Physitians can best judge of wholesome meats, and diseases, and Lawyers of the lawes and differences arising in them, a Counsell of Warre of difficult cases and points in warre; And therefore in things that belong to the spirituall good of the soule and the Church, the Ministers of the Church are most likely to resolve and to remedie things: Can it ordinarily be expected that the Magistrate should in matter of doctrine and opinion, in matters of schisme, and in matters of worthinesse and abilities of Ministers, and in many cases that arise, be able to judge and determine matters, as the Ministers and Pastours of the Church? 3. Those who have most time and leisure to attend a worke and businesse, to sift into it, to heare all that can be said, and can mind it, they being able and understanding are likeliest to determine best, and bring things to a good end: we see in experience that able and honest men through multitudes of businesse, delay long, slubber over businesses, and cannot doe things so effectually as they ought, and seldome prove good Arbitratours in difficult, intricate cases: Now Magistrates through many great and necessarie businesses of State, having large dominions, cannot so well attend as the Classes and Synods to heare and examine all the differences, scandals, schismes, &c. that doe and may arise both in Churches, and betweene Churches (especially as would fall out in the Independent way, and particularly in this way of submission, Non-communion and mutuall Protestation) but matters would be delayed and neglected, or escape wholly, or be hudled up. 4. To these I might adde as followes, that the Magistrate through his just greatnesse would not know the spirits and dispositions of Ministers & people, nor of other matters so well, as the Ministers who live among them, and converse with one another frequently, neither would there be that easinesse of accesse to the Magistrates and great persons, as to their Ministers and Pastours, with other such like.

8. But in Ecclesiasticall matters and differences, upon the p. 176Magistrates interposing his power, what is it you will submit unto? and what will you allow him to doe? And what is that power you will give him in backing the sentence of Noncommunion upon his judgement of the cause; and how farre and in what will you obey him, that so we may understand how this Civill power is intended by you for a remedie and helpe in Churches and betweene Churches? For instance will you submit not to gather Churches, nor set up Assemblies witho… …is leave, and upon complaints of the many mischiefes and differences occasioned thereupon, will you upon his hearing both sides, and judging that those who are gathered shall be dissolved, dissolve them and not meet in those wayes any more? Will you upon some members complaining to the Magistrate of some Minister or Ministers in their Church, for preaching erroneous and unprofitable doctrine, meere novelties, subtilties, and the Magistrate upon particular cognizance and examination of such causes, judging that he shall preach no more, will the Minister forbeare upon it? or the Church to heare him in case the Minister would not yeeld? will the Church now goe chuse a new and Orthodox Minister upon it? or in case a member or more be unjustly excommunicated, and they complaine to the Magistrate, who calling the Church to account, and hearing both sides, shall judge on the Complaiants side, and now order the Church to absolve him, and order them to confesse their sinne publikely, and appoint them to keepe a day of humiliation for it, and order them to give him such a summe of mony for the wrong, trouble, and losse of his time in following the businesse against them, will the Church now submit to doe all this yea or no? What say you to these and the like cases? Now I aske you this in the close, because you pretend a great deale of submission to the Magistrate, and to give him much power (which though you did grant, yet for the many reasons and grounds alreadie specified, this would not countervaile the way of the Presbyterians in their spirituall censures by Presbyters and Synods) whether you clearely and plainly allow this to the Magistrate? because I finde in Manuscripts, and heare that in Sermons by men of your Church-way, the contrarie is publikely preacht and held, as for example in that Treatise about a Church, p. 177which goes under one of your names, there is this passage, with more to that purpose. The Saints need not expect their power or leave for to gather together, so as without it such a combination is unlawfull, nor should they forbeare it out of conscience of the Magistrates prohibition, indeed if the Magistrate should force or compell them to forbeare or persecute them, they may forbeare actuall assembling, (Act. 8. 1.) not because the Magistrate forbids it, but in merciemercy to themselves: And indeed about a Church Christian Magistrates have no more power then Heathen Magistrates had: So that this is spoken by you where Magistrates are Christian, and where Churches are already setled: And adde to this that M. S. in his Reply in defence of your Apologie is against coercive and coactive power in matters of Religion, and that you all hold a toleration, and that the Magistrates ought not to hinder men, or punish them for the matter of their consciences, how then notwithstanding all your discourse of the power of the Magistrate, which added to Non-communion will be an effectuall meanes to releeve persons injured, to reduce Churches and persons going in schisme and errours, shall persons injured be remedied or Churches and persons reduced? For suppose the persons or Churches that now fall into such errours and schismes will pretend, nay 'tis so really, that they in their conscience hold errours for truths, and thereupon with-draw from such Churches to others, nay suppose those who now receive these new truths should cast out of their fellowship, and excommunicate some for holding otherwise, as for instance a Church falling into Antinomianisme should censure some of their members that remain orthodox for legal Christians, and for being enemies to free-grace, and should judge themselves bound to doe so in these and such like cases, what remedie is there for miscarrying Churches by all the power of the Magistrate you pretend to give to him? But this is brought in here by you, and given to him, to put of that strong argument against your way, and that you may have something for present to blind the eyes, and stop the mouths of many that looke no further, that it may serve your turne at such a straight, whereas upon other principles you denie the Magistrate this when it shall come to be a matter of conscience: And p. 178now by all the severall particulars under this fifth head, the understanding Reader may observe that not only in many respects your non-Communion and Magistrates power are not a remedie comparable to the Presbyterian way, not proper, nor to the nature of the offences and things in question, a way in stead of bringing things to an end, redressing and mending matters amisse, that will be but the beginning of more strife and making more differences and evils then either it sindes, or can heale, the mother and nurse of Confusions, Disorders, and endlesse contentions; but also that all the power here pretended to be given to the Magistrate upon examination is no such matter nor will not amount to make good the ends propounded; whereas the Presbyteriall Government here scandalized, as either wholly inconsistent with this forme of Civill Government, or else not giving it its due, will be found by its principles not only to have powerfull spirituall remedies for all spirituall evils of the Church, but will be found in many respects to make use of, and to give honour and power to the Civill Magistrate as a nursing Father from first to last, even in the ordinary way of the Order and Government of the Church beyond you, besides what they give more in extraordinary cases, in a Church miserably corrupted, disordered, &c. Of which the Reader may read at large in Apollonius (who was a great Presbyterian, cap. 2.) And so learned **Illi certè nullo modosinendi sunt vivere, cii illorum temporali… vita alijs … aeterna mors. Za…ch. de magistr. 168. Beza. Epist. 83.Zanchius in his Tractate de Magistratis, shewes 'tis in the power of the Magistrate not to suffer Heretickes nor erroneous persons to preach, and he gives him coactive punitive power to cut them off. Beza a great Presbyterian, in his Epistles and other writings, in matters of Religion doth not exclude the Magistrate, but gives him that power in some things which you deny: but besides that power they give the Magistrate, they stand for, as needfull in the Church, Classes and Synods for the Government of it: Zanchy shewes that discipline cannot Zanch de Eccl. …. gubern. p 552. … quar. praecept 713.take place, where the Ministers never meet together, the me… ting of Ministers and Ecclesiasticall Synods we judge most necessary; As no Politie, Common-wealth or Kingdome can consist without their meetings, Senates and Councels; so there is need of Synods for the governing of the Church and for the preventing of her…fies: In a word all things are loose in independent p. 179Government, every one is left, and may take liberty without controule, to doe what is good in their owne eyes, if they like not any Church whereof they are members, they may goe to another, nay, a few in a Church disliking that Church may goe make a Church themselves, and make Ministers, and hold what they will, as M^r Sympson did with some few more, and since some have rent from M^r Sympsons Church as he from M^r Bridge. The rules they goe by are loose, nothing being fixed nor certaine among them, and there can be no setlednesse of mind, nor consistence of Principles, in that way simple and well meaning people according to their Principles must be drawn till they come to that, to hold that there are no true Churches, nor Ministers at all yet upon the earth (which principle begins to take, and spread already amongst many Independents.) In a word, that Liberty and loosenesse, which is from first to last in Independent Government, holding no authoritative Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation to remedie or prevent any matter, and that which is in the particular Congregation, being on many Grounds and Principles of theirs so slight and weake, as the only subject of Excommunication being no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light, &c. as that two or three Saints, or now of late six or seven may with-draw from Churches defective and impure, and make Churches and chuse all officers &c. with other like; (so that what need they care then for that Church of which they are members though cast out, seeing they can make new, and have all to their owne minde, be chiefe there) is a dangerous temptation even to sober men, to make them presume to broach that, practise that which else they would never have done. But in the Order and Government of the Reformed Churches there is consistence, unitie and strength (as is evident by a hundred yeares visible experience of Gods blessing from heaven upon them) there is also a certainty and fixednesse of rules agreed on, both for particular congregations, for Classes and Synods; there is an awing and preserving of officers and people in their bounds, and keeping them from running out to errours, &c. there being no man, be he never so able or subtill that can escape calling to account and censure. Magistrates and Ministers have p. 180their power in the Church without usurpation and confusion, and to conclude in the words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland; were Magistrates and civill power acquainted with this order and government of the Church, they would finde their authoritie increased, their worke more easie, and their places more comfortable thereby.

And now having given an answer to that part of your Apologie under that instance of the government and discipline of the Churches, by speaking fully of those five heads unto which I referre all your discourse about the government and discipline of the Churches, (beginning in pag. 12. and ending in the 21.) I will for a close speake something to some of your passages contained in this part of your Narration, which could not so well be taken in, nor so properly animadverted upon under those five heads without the Readers being much confounded and entangled.

1. To that passage, p. 14. We had for the most part of the time we were abroad three Elders at least in each congregation whom we were subject to: I aske if the Churches were subject to the Elders, you many times having but three, and sometimes but two, nay one Elder, the government of your Churches then was either Monarchicall Government, or Oligarchicall at best? And if the Churches were subject to the Elders, who were the Elders subject to, the Elders then were under no subjection, but if the Churches were subject to the Elders, and not the Elders to the Churches, riddle me what is the meaning of all those phrases, the Church still did so and so, not the Elders, the Church at Roterdam deposed M. Ward, and not M. Bridge and an Elder or two, and so M. Nye and M. Goodwin the Ministers, were sent by the Church, and that Church which had offended, confessed their sin, and restored their Minister to his place againe, which sure was not M. Bridge and a lay-Elder or two.

2. To those passages of Churches offended, calling to an account Churches offending, proceeding to full and open tryals, and examinations, to Iudiciarie charges, and deposition of witnesses openly before all commers of all sorts, as can be expected in any Court where Authority about them enjoyns it, and of a particular Church being censurable by neighbour Churches about them. I desire p. 181to put this disjunctive proposition, Either this power of calling to an account, examining, deposing witnesses, censuring them, &c. are acts of ruling and government, and in the Churches challenged acts of subjection, or they are not; if you grant they be acts of rule and government, then there is an authoritative power which Churches have out of their Churches, and you grant it in such acts at least, though not in that of excommunication: But whether if it be so in these, that of excommunication will not follow, let it be considered, for either the censure of excommunication is not founded upon the common grounds, on which callings to account, and some censures are, or else there is some proper peculiar grounds in the nature of that ordinance, or in the Scripture forbidding that, (though allowing others,) neither of which will be found to have a foundation in Scripture, and if so, why then doe you make all this adoe of entire, full, compleate power within your selves, and are against the combination of Churches in Classes, and Presbyteries, to doe that constantly, certainely and presently upon scandals that fall out in a Church, which you doe at best but at uncertainties, and after a long time, when the remedy may come too late, a yeare or two afterwards; But if you answer these are no acts of government and rule in this Church or Churches, but meerely acts of consultation, advice, perswasion, and that when the Churches offended have heard all, they only give their counsell and advice, and commend it to them, but it is in their liberty to doe or not to doe; for though they submit to a hearing, and open triall by vertue of the principle of submission, yet they submitted not to stand to the determination and agreement of that Church, or Churches: I answer, if you meane no more then the bare power of counsell and advice in all this, and no power of Authoritative determination and decision, this is no more, nor you give no more to the Churches offended then to particular Christians who may counsell them in such cases; And why then doe you hold out such words, and your practise of a full and open triall, and what speake you of roome for complaints, and of subjecting to an open triall, and review of what can be brought, and of being censurable by neighbour Churches, &c. Whether be not all these the usuall phrases and expressions of acts of power and p. 182government? can there be so much as triall, and examination, and judiciary charges, and deposition of witnesses without authority, much lesse censure? can you ever shew it either in civill government in Common-wealth, or in Ecclesiasticall in Churches, out of Scripture, or stories, where all these acts were exercised and practised by persons who only had power of counsell and advice? and if you cannot, how can you make it good, but that this must be more then advice and counsell, namely authoritative power. It is given as a rule by your selves, that in matters of a common nature, 'tis in Ecclesiasticall government as in civill; Now if in all civill Assemblies, all these acts and practises be acts of authority and government, why holds it not so in Ecclesiasticall? And further to reason though Churches be sisters, and equall each considered by it selfe, yet in cases of offence and difference between Churches, the Churches complained and appealed unto, to whom the rest submit, should now be greater, and have more power in this thing, then the Churches submitting, and their acts should be authoritative, as in reason, 6, or 8, men falling out, and choosing and submitting to others to heare the businesse and make an end of it, these are now greater, and have a power and authority over these quo ad hoc, and in these acts and what they doe are acts of power, which they must stand unto or suffer the penalty.

Thirdly, You speake more then once upon occasion of this scandall committed in that Church at Rotterdam, of Churches as in the plurall number, sister Churches to be consulted with before hand, and of your Churches mutually and universally acknowledging that principle of submission, and how that Church …hich with others was most scandalized, did by Letters declare their offence, and of requiring a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation: Now what, and where were those other Churches of whom all this is spoke? I grant, that at Arnheim was one Church that M^r Bridges Church should have consulted with, or have submitted to, but where were any other Churches? I will yeeld the Church at Arnheim might by letters declare their offence, but I know not what other Churches did by letters doe the like; I grant the Church at Arnheim was a Church of our Nation, before whom the offending Church did yeeld a publike p. 183hearing, but I know of no other, I will not question but that the Church at Arnheim, and M^r Bridges Church, did upon the offence of deposing M^r Ward, acknowledge that principle of submission, and submit to one another, but I doubt no other did then mutually submit, for besides the Church at Arnheim offended, and M^r Bridges Church offending, there was no other Church of your way and communion for the offending Church to consult with, or that did write letters, or before whom the businesse was heard, &c. for I suppose and judge M^r Simpsons new Church being at that difference with M^r Bridges Church, and M^r Bridge with him, M^r Bridges Church should not have consulted with M^r Simpsons before hand, and that M^r Bridges Church would not have yeelded the principle of submission, to have submitted to a full triall and examination of all proceedings before M^r Simpsons, and in case M^r Simpsons Church had sent letters declaring their offence, they would have declined it as partiall, and as accounting them the parties offending; and I never heard that M^r Simpson with some messengers of his Church joyned with the messengers of Arnheim in the triall of that businesse of M^r Ward, or sate as Judges, &c. so that I cannot tell why you use Churches in the plurall number thus all along in that businesse, but that the Reader might conceive for your greater authority and esteeme, and for the greater solemnity of the action, there were more Churches besides that at Arnheim.

Fourthly, For those two Gentlemen who were sent with the Ministers of the Church offended, to require an account, whether were those Gentlemen Elders of the Church of Arnheim, or private members only? If they were not Elders, why were private members sent before Elders, shew us a rule for that? and satisfie us how private persons and no officers of the Church should represent the Church? but if they were Elders, why doe you name them Gentlemen only and not speake of them as officers?

5. Whether though you make so sure of it, yet it be not to be doubted upon the grounds of reason and light of nature, that it is not more brotherly and more suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with, but a point of greater authority, inequality and usurpation for foure men (grant them p. 184to be a Church representative) to take upon them what those foure members of Arnheim did to a whole Church for so many dayes, so fully and judiciarily to proceed (as you write in the 21 page) then for a whole Presbyterie of Ministers and Elders, or a grave Synod to call to an account, and heare the offences of two or three in a particular Church, and together with that Church representative to decree such censures, as publike acknowledgement of their offences, or excommunication, &c.

Sixtly, I much wonder how you can call the meeting of M^r Goodwin and M^r Nye, with two Gentlemen more, calling M^r Bridge with the rest of that Church, supposed to be delinquents, such a sol…mne Assembly, the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an impr…ssion upon your hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever you have bee… present at: Certainely you have either been but at few solemne Assemblies where Christs dreadfull presence hath been, or else your phancie was mighty high at that time, as to make such a deepe impression upon you of a dreadfull presence as ever you have been at: Let me aske M^r Nye, what was this Assembly, beyond the solemne generall Assembly of Scotland, where you were present when the great solemne Covenant of the Kingdomes passed, of which you write so highly into England? or was it beyond the Assembly of Divines, wherein not only two of you are for consultation, but all you …ive, (with so many other godly Divines, where instead of two Gentlemen assisting then, here the Worthies of both Houses, Lords and Commons assist,) nay a Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe, where much of the piety, learning and wisedome of two Kingdomes are met in one (as your selves confesse afterwards in the 27 page,) I am of the mind there are ordinarily many Assemblies, and where you may have been, that have a more dreadfull presence of Christ then that had. The Church meeting to partake in the Lords Supper, cal'd the dreadfull and terrible houre by some of the Fathers, the Church meeting to excommunicate an impenitent sinner, (where there is a promise of binding in Heaven what is bound on earth) which you cannot shew in your principle of submission and non-communion: But this parenthesis is drawne in, in the relation of your practise (like many other particulars in this book) p. 185to take with the simple people, and to possesse them with the excellencie and majesty of your Congregationall way, beyond the Presbyteriall and Synodicall, and this passage here with many others in your Apologeticall Narration, are paralell to passages in M^r Bachelours letters, (who after his suddaine conversion to the Church-way,) for want of better arguments to winne the people, and to evince the truth of the Church-way, writes thus. For mine Rotterdam, Septemb. 4^t•. 1641. New; stile.own part, though but a few weeks agone when I was in England, I found some objection in my spirit, against the way of the Holland Churches, and conceived wrongfully (as M^r Edwards now doth) through misunderstanding cast abroad by them, whose sore eyes cannot endure the light of truth, yet since by a good hand of providence I have been at Rotterdam and beheld the beautifull face of holinesse, the lively representations of Iesus Christ in his ordinances, the sweet and blessed communion of the Saints in all love and dearenesse, mine objections are removed, mine heart is convinced, and I thinke many thousands in England as well as my selfe would soone be overcome at the very sight thereof. A soule of gratious ingenuity needs no other Rhetorick to winne it then the presence of these heavenly administrations? But what Anabaptist or Antinomian cannot say all this for their way, and more too, crying out the ravishments of the spirit, free and glorious grace, &c.

7. You speake of consulting with sister Churches before that you proceed to matters of great moment, and that you professed publikely in cases of concernment you ought so to doe, pag. 16. and yet in page 15. you claime a full and entire power compleat within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely, now how doe these agree? for if you must consult before hand, then 'tis not an entire, full, compleate power before miscarrying, and 'tis but a power of consulting and advising after miscarriages and erring grossely, and not an authoritative power.

8. Whereas you call Presbyteriall excommunication, excommunication pretended; how much more truly may we call non-communion pretended, and Protestation pretended? for besides that in the Scripture, excommunication is to be found, there is such a censure there, but no such sentence at all as non-communion; there is also ground in Scriptures, that Churches may be excommunicated p. 186as well as particular persons, and of this in the Observations and Annotations upon your Apologeticall Narration, page 43, 44. you may reade strong proofes, which your good friend M. S. thought best to take no notice of, as not knowing how to answer them, and I turne them over from M. S. to you five, to give a satisfying answer.

9. For that learned Speech made at the introduction and entrance into that solemne Assembly, as the preface to it, that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any Religion hath ever made profession of, &c. I say 'tis but a meere flourish, and according to the Proverbe, her's a great deale of cry, but a little wool, and notwithstanding all these swelling words, you are guilty indeed, what in words and phrases you deny, and in the more proper place when I shall speake to it in page 23, of your Apologie, I will evince you are guilty of Independent liberty.

Thus we have rendred some small account of those, the saddest Apolog.dayes of our pilgrimage on earth, wherein although we enjoyed God, yet besides many other miseries (the companions of banishment) we lost some friends and companions, our f…llow labourers in the Gospell, as precious men as this earth beares any, through the distemper of the place, and our selves came hardly off that service with our healths, yea lives.

To this Section which containes the close and winding up of that part of your Narration, during the time of your exile. I answer, It is a small account indeed you have rendred to what you seeme to hold out, and to what such a Narration should have amounted, concealing …nd reserving so much of your practise and wayes, (as I have before observed;) And as for those words, the saddest dayes of our pilgrimage on earth, &c. I wonder at them, sure you have been very happy men, and have enjoyed many very good dayes, that in your whole pilgrimage on earth of forty yeares and upwards, those three or foure yeares in Holland, where you enjoyed so many outward comforts and blessings, should be your saddest dayes; for my part I cannot say so; Neither am I satisfied in those words, besides many other miseries the companions of banishment: For though in some banishments there are many other miseries the companions of them, as deprivation of wife, p. 187children, friends, maintenance, with nakednesse, hunger, wandring up and downe in strange and desolate places, harsh usage in a strange land, yet you felt none of these: But on the contrary, you enjoyed wives, children, estates, suitable friends, good houses, full fare, I cannot imagine fewer miseries, (had you been in England) could have waited upon you, then did there, (unlesse that of bitter divisions, and deadly differences, the constant companions of your Church-way:) I could name many more miseries did abide some of us that stayed behind, and might have done you to, had you stayed in England: As for those two instanced in, particularly the losse of some friends and companions, your fellow-labourers in the Gospell, and your selves comming off hardly with your healths, yea lives, I must tell you, those cannot properly and truly be called the companions of your banishment; for those two Ministers (namely M^r Archer and M^r Harris) according to all reason and humane probability might not have lived longer in England, both of them (as it is well knowne) having been long weake men in consumptions, and sometimes nigh unto death before they went, and for one of these Ministers M^r Archer, he was so farre from being worse that he grew better and stronger in stomack, sleepe, strength and spirits after he went over into Holland, (as besides the many letters writ into England to friends of all sorts of the healthfulnesse of that place where he was with some of you, and of the encrease of his strength,) I have letters written to me under his own hand, to shew the contrary to what you affirme both of the distemper of the place, and of the many other miseries the companions of that banishment: In one letter he writes thus; For Holland, it is much better then I expected, for pleasantnesse, health, plenty of flesh and foule: we alter not o…r English diet in any thing: Utrich is a brave City, a University with godly professors, full of English; a man may live as pleasantly there as at Hartford. And in another, My stomack, sleepe, strength and vigour, are sensibly increased, the Lord be praised: And besides these letters the thing it selfe speakes, for whereas in England he was not able to preach, nor had not hardly three times in three yeares, after he came into Holland he was Pastor of the Church at Arnheim, and preached constantly, and had that p. 188strength to beget a sonne, whereas he being married many yeares in England never had any child. And not only from him but from others also there have been many letters sent to commend the places where you lost your fellow labourers, to be so healthfull and pleasant as to resemble them to Bury in Suffolke and Hart ford. As for that high praise of those two worthy Ministers, as precious men as this earth beares any: I thinke it becomes you not, they being yours, and of your way, and cannot be interpreted by the understanding Reader, but that you take occasion here, as in all other places of your Apologeticall Narration, to magnifie and cry up your own party, the more to make people to be in love with your way, which had as precious men as this earth beares any, but I judge it is too high and hyperbolicall; for though I dearely loved the men, and doe acknowledge they were precious, and beleeve they are gone (as that great Divine said in his sicknesse he was going) where Luther and Zuinglius doe well agree; yet I must needs correct that phrase, as this earth beares any: For I am of opinion that both in learning and piety they were inferiour to some, not only in the earth which is wide and spatious, containing Churches and Ministers more pretious then you know of, but in this earth of England and Scotland, and your Encomium of them (if you remember what you writ before of some pretious men alive now in New-England as ever this Kingdome bred) and granting that New-England is the earth, doth amount to this, that these two Ministers M^r Archer and M^r Harris, were as pretious men as ever were in England, which you must pardon me if I doubt it, (for I beleeve Whitakers, Reynolds, Baynes, Greeneham, Dod, Brightman, with many more were more pretious:) As for that other instance, Your selves comming hardly off that service with your healths, yea lives; I have not heard of any great sicknesses any of you five had there, (excepting M^r Bridge who came hardly off with his health,) Some of you indeed had Agues there, which you might have had in England, in Suffolk, or in Oxfordshire, and for M^r Bridges sicknesse, I judge it was as well occasioned, and strengthened upon the unhappy differences and bitter divisions between him and M^r Simpson, and M^r Ward and their Churches, and the wicked reports raised upon him, which discontented and troubled p. 189his spirit, as by the distemper of the place or change of the aire; and for others of you, how fat and well liking you came backe into England, and how all of you returned well clad and shining beyond most of us, who lived alwaies in England, many can witnesse, and have spoken of it (all which were no great signes either of the many other miseries the companions of your banishment, nor of the comming off so hardly with your healths and lives.)

When it pleased God to bring us his poore Exiles backe againe Apolog,in these revolutions of the times, as also of the condition of this Kingdome, into our own Land (the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie whereof, had been no small part of that publike worship we offered up to God in a strange Land;) we found the judgement of many of our godly, learned bretheren in the Ministerie (that desired a generall Reformation) to differ from ours in some things, wherein we doe professedly judge the Calvinian Reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie, to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves; And it may without prejudice to them, or the imputation of schisme in us from them, be thought that they comming new out of Popery (as well as England) and the founders of that Reformation not having Apostolique infallibilitie, might not be fully perfect the first day, yea and it may hopefully be conceived, that God in his secret, yet wise and sacred dispensation, had left England more unreformed, as touching the outward forme, both of worship and Church-government, then the neighbour Churches were, having yet powerfully continued a constant conflict and contention for a further Reformation for these foure score yeares, during which time he had likewise in stead thereof, blessed them with the spirituall light (and that encreasing) of the power of Religion in the practique part of it, shining brighter and clearer then in the neighbour Churches, as having in his infinite merciemercy on purpose reserved and provided some better thing for this Nation when it should come to be reformed, that the other Churches might not be made perfect without it, as the Apostle speaks.

Having Apologized for your selves and way in your principles, p. 190opinions, practises and carriage towards all sorts both before your exile and in your exile, here in this section you come to Apologize for your selves, and for what you have done since your comming back into England, both before the Assemblie and since the Assemblie, untill the time of putting forth this present Apologeticall Narration, which beginning in this section is continued by you in the following sections to the 30^th page: But brethren why doe you in the beginning of this part of your Apologie give your selves that name of Gods poore Exiles, was it not enough to have said, when it pleased God to bring us backe againe into our owne Land; but you must call your selves Gods Exiles and poore Exiles; I wonder you tearmed not your selves poore pilgrims: But the reason why you name your selves so here, and in this Apologie take occasion so often to speake of exile and banishment, may easily be guest at, namely to commend your persons and way the more to the people, and for want of better, to take them with such popular arguments, as suffering a grievous exile: Thus in many other passages of your Apologie, you bring in and insert many such kind of phrases to worke with the people the more, but doe insinuate many things against the Presbyteriall way, as of engagements, publike interest, &c. But let me a little examine whether you five can fitly be stiled Gods poore Exiles, I thinke to speake properly, you neither were Exiles, nor poore, for you were not banished, nor forced out of your owne Laud, neither by being brought into the High-Commission Court, or by Letters missive, and Attachments out against you, (as ever I heard) but (excepting M. Burroughes who fled in haste, as being in dangers for words spoken) you went at your own times over into Holland with all conveniences of your Families and other companie. **Peter. Martyr. loc. commun. Class 4 cap. 14. de exilio. Groe… etiam foreign a fugiendo exilium vocarent.Among the Greekes Fuga was called exilium, and so you flying out of the kingdome, in that sense may be cal'd exiles, but how ever in some sense you may call it exile, because you did flie out of your owne Country (though none persecuted you) to shun persecution before it came, as foreseeing possibility of danger, yet you can in no sence be called poore Exiles, for you were rich Exiles, who in Holland enjoyed many conveniences and such abundance, as to be able (some of you) to spend 200 p. 191or 300. lb. per annum, and to doe other expensive acts (which for present I forbeare to name) And I can produce letters of many conveniencies which you enjoyed there; Letters before quoted by me of M. Archers speake so much. Poore exiles are such who have no certaine dwelling-place, maintenance, friends, but how they can be called poore Exiles, that enioy wives, children, friends full and liberall maintenance annually, liberty of callings, with all pleasures and delights as much, or rather more then in their owne countrey I see not: Suppose some merchants and tradesmen who could not so well nor so much to their advantage follow their callings, and drive their trade in their owne countrey should for their better advantage, and accomodatons in these kinds, goe with their families into another Countrey, can these be called Exiles? Suppose a Minister, who disliking some things here in the present Government to be established; or wanting a liberall maintenance, or fearing the warre, should goe over to Roterdam, Hambrough to preach to the company of Merchants there, where he shall have better meanes, can this Minister be stiled a poore exile: Now I leave you and the Readers to make application. As for those words: Gods bringing you backe againe in these revolutions of the times into your owne land. I know God permitted it, and ordered it, but I well know Satan hastened and furthered it, for the dividing of the godly party here, and for the obstructing the worke of Reformation and hindering the setling the government of the Church, that so in the meane time he might increase his kingdome, and bring in a floud of all errours and licentiousnesse upon us; and Brethren let me speake sadly to you (not out of passion, but out of long and serious deliberation) it had been good for you, and for us that you had continued exiles still, and that neither you five, nor they of New-England had heard of the revolution of our times and Gods visiting us in merciemercy, till the Church and government had been setled; I am confident that things had not then been at that passe now as they are: As for that Parenthesis, the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie of the Kingdome in a strange Land: I will not gaine-say it, onelyonly let me mind you of two passages in your Apologie, Our selves had no hopes of ever so much as visiting p. 192our own land again in peace and safety to our persons, and the other, when we had least dependencie on this kingdome, or so much as hopes ever to abide therin in peace. Now take away faith & hope, & endeavors will much cease, & this I judge should much hinder your praiers and teares for the prosperitie of the land (for my part I had much hope of the kingdom, when things were at worst, and I exprest it both in preaching and conference to many, and some can witnesse what I have said to them of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and the rest of that faction, and of the revolution of the times) God was pleased so to support my spirit, that I expected and waited (as men doe for the light of the morning) when that every day God would arise, and doe some great worke and change the times and seasons. As for your finding the judgement of many of your godly, learned brethren in the Ministerie (that desired a generall Reformation) to differ from yours in some things, that was no marvell, I wonder you could expect it otherwise, being but a few young men of yesterday, and going a way by your selves so different from all Reformed Churches: But I must tell you, you found not onelyonly the judgement of many godly Ministers that desired a generall Reformation, but the judgement of them all, who were in publike imployment, and of any great account to differ from yours, not onelyonly in some things, but even in your whole Church way; how ever that since by your presence, and your politick way of working, and the strong streame of popular applause running that way, some few Ministers, uncertaine, heady, inconstant, wanton-witted men are since come off to your way; but as for your confidence and open profession that in the things wherein you differed from many of your godly brethren, that you professedly judge the Calvinian reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves. I answer they may doe so, and I know no Church yet so perfect but may stand in need of some further Reformation, and the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland grant you so much, pag. 7. That they are most willing to heare Reformat. of Church-government.and learne from the word of God what needeth further to be reformed in the Church of Scotland: Now whether your Churches and those of new England be so perfect, (though not of the first p. 193Reformation) as to stand in no need of a further Reformation in government I much doubt, especially considering that letter lately come from New-England written by M. Parker, as also a nother Letter from M. Wilson of Boston, and a terrible Lette from a reverend godly Minister there, whose name I have been entreated to conceale (least it might much prejudice him there,) but for answer I must tell you I doe professedly judge, that in your sence in the things excepted against by you, the Reformed Churches (particularly that of Scotland) need not a further Reformation, namely to come to your principles of Democracie, Independencie, Libertinisme, and to keepe all those and their children from admission into the visible Church whom you keepe out, and to condemne as unlawfull all set formes of prayer composed by Synods and Assemblies (though never so holy and heavenly for matter and frame:) And as to that, that it may without prejudice to them, or the imputation of Schisme in you be thought that comming new out of Poperie, they might not be fully perfect the first day. I answer, they never thought so, neither were they so fully perfect in Church government the first day, but the reformed Churches (particularly the French-Churches) had many Synods, Assemblies and Colloquies, where points of government and order have been further debated, cleared, and Canons added, and in the Church of Scotland after doctrine was established, they were exercised in conferences and Assemblies about matters of Discipline and Government (which is the perfection spoken of here by you) above twenty yeares. Reformat. of Church gover. pag. 14.Besides considering that the Reformed Churches both in France, Scotland and Holland, have heretofore been troubled with the maine of your principles, and have heard all the Arguments and reasons for them, and against their owne way, and that both of old, and now of later yeares, Scotland of old having been troubled with the Separatists, and the Churches of France by Morellius, against whom Sadeel did write, and **Bez. Epist. …8Beza in his Epistles writes against that principle of the power of the people, that nothing is ratified except the people present by their expresse suffrages doe decree it, and against **Bez. Epist. 83private mens prophecying in the Church: and of late (though the controversie be growne so high) p. 194yet Divines both in Holland and Scotland (as your selves confesse) have writ against your way, and can see no light I…m it, and in a generall Assembly of Scotland since our Parliament, the point being moved and debated there, it was concluded against by the whole Assembly, nemine contradiconte, as a Letter written from that Assembly to many Ministers in the City (which I heard read at a meeting) testifies, neither are any of the Reformed Churches yet satisfied, by all that hath been written about your Independent government, nor our present Assembly by all they have heard from you, after so many dayes speaking for your way: So that what the Reformed Churches stand for now, is not as comming new out of Poperie, and so wanting light (as you assert) and therefore though they had not Apostolicke Infallibilitie, yet they might well be in the right for Church-government, and therefore the Reformed Churches, and the Church of England too judging of government now after above 80. years comming out of Poperie, and after hearing all that hath been said, and that you can say (now after almost a yeares sitting in the Assembly.) They yet judge Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be the true forme of Church-government, against your Independencie, so that now the ground you going upon, being taken away, you cannot without great prejudice to the Reformed Churches so peremptorily judge them (as you doe in this place of your Apologie:) And as your practise cannot be without prejudice to them, and the imputation of Schisme in you from them, to set up new Churches and divide from them upon these grounds, so this passage of yours here against all the Reformed Churches, cannot avoyd the suspition of great arrogancie and pride, to proclaime your selves to see more then all the Churches in worship and government, and to judge them so: 'Tis a high presumption that five such young men as you are, and no deeplier studied, should thus proudly, and tanquam ex tripode, so magisterially conclude against all the Reformed Churches. Certainly, had you had the humilitie of many of Gods servants you would rather have feared, and questioned whether you might not have been mistaken in your grounds, and therefore modestly have propounded your doubts to the Assembly to have resolved p. 195them, rather then before the points ever came to be debated in the Assembly (in such matters where you goe against the common streame of all Reformed Churches) to have thus professedly, peremptorily and resolvedly; both in this Section, and in the next pag. 24. determined the questions. And brethren let me friendly mind you who are you five? of what standing, reading, graces to take so much to your selves; and to be so peremptory, that you should see that, which all the Reformed Churches doe not, nor are not able by any of your Arguments, nor what else is extant to see or be convinced of; But as for the close to this part of the Section concerning the Calvinian Reformed Churches, that it may hopefully be conceived that God left England more unreformed as touching Government and Worship then the neighbour Churches were, &c. It is a strange speech, and savours of a strange high conceit of your owne way of Independencie, and of your great light and abilitie in this Assembly, (where the Church of England is to be reformed) and to speake plainly, the English and sence of all these lines is this, That it may be hopefully conceived that God in his secret, yet wise and gracious dispensation hath all this long time for above 80. years left England more unreformed, and of his infinite mercy on purpose reserved it for this present Assembly, that M. Goodwin, M. Nye, &c. might bring a new light in Church government and order, and so Scotland and the Neighbour-Churches might be new-moulded into their way: But how ever some of you are men of strong fancies, and all of high confidences of your owne opinions and wayes, yet I beleeve you will be deceived at this time, (how ever you may comfort your selves and Churches with the hopes of prevailing at another time, saying that Presbyterie shall fall as Episcopacie hath done after it's time) (one of that way for want of arguments having used such words to me) and that M. Goodwin, M. Nye, &c. will not be able to effect what they desire and hope for, but it may be rather hopefully conceived, that in stead of the reformed Churches comming to them, these five members of the Assembly at last, with others to, upon this glorious Reformation will be brought to joyn with other reformed Churches, according to the solemn Covenant and oath themselves have entred into.