Counterpoison Considerations, Arguments 1
ARGVMENTS. That the best assemblies of the present church of ENGLAND, are true visible CHVRCHES.
1. IN what churches soeuer are found in publick practise, the things that essentially constitute a true visible church; they are true visible churches of Christ.
But in the best of our assemblies are found in publick practise the things that essentially constitute a true visible church:
Therefore the best of our assemblies, are true visible Churches.
Proof of the assumption
A visible church is the house of God, 1 Tim. 3.15. Now the meanes or things that constitute it, are 1 Foundation Iesus Christ to build vponupon; 1 Cor 3.11 Mat 16.18. 2 Builders; that is, such preaching ministers of the word, as doe build in godlynes, convert and confirme. 1 Cor 3 10. 3 Instrument of building the word of God. Eph. 2.20. 4 Matter to be built; people ioyned togither in the profesion of the Gospel. 1 Cor 3.9 Eph. 2, 20.
But all these are found in publick practise in the best of our assemblies. Therfore in the best of our assemblies, are found in publick practise, the things that constitute a true visible church.
Answer.
THE title of your arguments conteyneth 1 an error or absurditie; 2 & argueth some check in your own consciences for defence of your Church. 1 The error is, that you divide the church of England into many Churches; making the first (as I conjecture) a national Church; the other, parishionall. This is an error, because it is an aEx, 20,humane inuention and differeth from the scripture, which sheweth many churches to be in a nation or country; as in Iudea, Asia, Galatia &c, Gal, 1, 2, 21. Reu. 1.4. but sheweth not any natiōal church. Now that yours is a national church not onelyonly the name and title, but also the constitution sheweth; for it hath a Pastor over it, the Archbishop of Canterbury Primate and Metropolitan, your most reverend father in God; who maketh and consecrateth the Diocesan Bishops. (wherevpon there are Diocesan churches or Sees; (and they agayn make the Parish Priests. To him and bform of cō secrat. Bishops and Priests &cto his successors, the inferior Bishops hauehave sworn (so help them god through Iesus Christ.) all due reverence and obedience. If the mould of this Church were not fetched from Rome; shew where you learned it.
2. The check which the title argueth to be in your conscience, app…areth ap…eareth it that you plead but for the best assemblies of the present church of England; for doe you not hereby intimate, that there is a worser sort which you will not plead for? yet both b…st, and worst are all one body, one church and communion: If your Church of England be Christs why maynteyn you not the whole? is not every …art and parcell of Christs church to be defended? Thinke you that the priests and people of Israell, would hauehave mainteyned the Most holy place of their Temple onelyonly, & hauehave suffred the rest of the howse to be ruinate and troden vnderunder foot. or if they did thus, should they hauehave done well? How persidiously then doe you deal with your church, (if it be the true church of Christ,) that you seek to vphold your Sanctum sanct…rum, your best assemblies; and neglect the rest▪ Or, if you would make one peece of your church Christ and another peece Antichrists, where both be in brotherhood and vnitie togither: it is as absurd as if you would make one part of your bodie humane, an other bestiall one peece Gods another Diuils. It is contrarie also to the playn scriptures which say; a2 Cor. 6.14.15,what communion hath light with darknese …hat concerd hath Christ with belial meaning. none at all. Eyther therefore you must iustify your whol Church; or you must with vsus make a separation. How long will you halt between two opinions.
To your Argument I answer; the proofs of your assumption fayl you.
A visible church (you say) is b1 Tim ….15.the house of God. True; but your Bethell, will be found Betha…en. the hou…e of Idolatrie.
You make the things constituting your howse to be fowr 1 Foundation 2 Builders, 3 Instruments, 4 Matter, But the forme or fashion of the building, you leaue quite out: perhaps you saw that it would not endure the trial▪ Heb. 8.5.when it should be compared with the patterne that God shewed in the Mount.
The Prophet Haggai cHag. 1.4 &c.reproued the Iewes for that Gods house was not builded amōg them. If you had beē ther. you would have disproued the Prophet by this sophistrie. We hauehave the 1 Foundation laid. Hag. 2.9, 2 Builders we hauehave many both priests and people 3 Instruments also for to hew and square the timber and stone as axes &c. 4 and matter wherewith to build, as wood from the mountain, and stone from the qarrie. Therefore (though the stones be neither laid nor squared. nor the timber hewen, fitted or framed: because with vsus are found the things that essentially constitute a visible house,) we hauehave the true house of God, But if your own material houses were no otherwise builded, then your church is, by this your argument. you would hauehave but an vncouth dwelling. If you read Gen. 11. you shall find the towr of Babel, to be as wel builded as your church; for there was the 1 Foundation laid; 2 Builders many, 3 instruments also; & 4 matter both brick and slime.
Now let vsus examine the things which you say you hauehave; and doe bu… barelie say for you proue it not.
1. The Foundation is Iesus Christ to build vponupon. 1 Cor. 3.11 Mat. 16.18. But this Foundation is not yet rightlie laid in your assemblies you hauehave it onelie in name and shew: Christ is neer in your mouthes, but farr from your actions. If you had shewed by the scriptures how Christ is laid for the foundation of the church: it would soon hauehave bene seen that your house is set vponupon the sands. For you hauehave not him for the mediator, prophet, priest, or king of your church, as it is now established. Many truthes I acknowledge are taught among you but many vntruthes are also mixed with them, and the power of godlines is denied; for the truthes that are taught cannot be practised. Your church hath also other spirituall Lords and lawes then Christ and his testament; as your Prelates, with their cannons, articles, and decrees imposed vponupon you to be obserued on paine of excommunication and, further penalties So Christ alone, is not your foundation, but his seruants also aRō 6.16you ar to whom you obey.
2. Your builders are your preaching ministers, but I deny them to be Gods builders, let them shew when God designed them as he did bExod. 31Bezaleel & Aholia'…, to make his sanctuary. let them shew by the word their office and calling as the Apostle Paul, of whome mention is made in the place you allege, 1 Cor 3:10.) did …n all his Epistles. Otherwise, not all that offer themselues to build may be admitted; for you know how it is written; It is not for you, and for vsus, to build the howse vntounto our God. Ezra. 4.3.
In most of your parish assemblies, you hauehave but one preaching minister; and so but one builder, and he will be a good while in building the house; and if he be taken away (as many are) then your church wanteth one of the 4 essent all things In many parishes there be vnpreaching ministers; your church maketh them builders also, (though you doe not,) and vntounto such if we were among you, should we be constreyned to submit our soules.
The Bishops are master builders in all your churches, they command and control you their inferior Priests: if you build not by their line they throw down quicklie all your building, and thrust the builders out of dores. These are like the hornes that Zacharie saw cZac 1.20 21.which scattered Iudah, so that a man darst not lift vp his head; but your preaching ministers are not like the carpenters that came to fray them away. How great a jarr there is between your builders. we all doe know; and long it wil be ere they agree togither to build Gods house; or the work be finished for Christ to dwel in, when the master workmen work all awry and when (as you dSupplication. pag 67complained to the Parliament) the walls of Sion, lie euen with the ground.
3. The instrument of building is the word of God. (as you allege Eph. 2.20. deliuered by the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himselfe. But your builders vse not this instrument aright, in doctrine or practise, they new not here with the rough stone, and knotty timber they reform not the profain & rebellious people, neither hauehave they power in their armes to cut off any one wicked man; for the axe of excommunication is in the Bishops hand alone, and his commissaries; he hath the keyes to open & shut the dores of your Church; the parish priest hath perhaps a weeding hook, and may suspend from the sacrament a while, by vertue of his service-book: but the greatest wound that he can make herewith, the Bishop or his substitute will quickly heal. Again you hauehave besides the Bible, Apocripha bookes, commanded by law to be read in your church: also that other instrument called the seruice book: and with this tool your best min…sters build vp your church, and the reading hereof doth now much edifie, in al your parishes: though the dayes hauee been when you could say, that a1 admo. p. 24.in all the order of your seruice, there was no edification but confusion. And who put this instrument into your ministers hands? Christ in his testament appoynted none such. Your church hath also Homily books to build withall, and many edifying canons and ceremonies, such tools the Prel…es hauehave allowed for your building. even the instruments of the foolish she…heard, Za. 11, 15.16. & if you will not beleeu me beleeu your selus which heretofore hauehave complayned and written thus, b2 admon to the. Parl pag. 6.7.No preacher may without great danger of the law vtter all the truth comprised in the book of God It is so circumscribed and wrapt within the compasse of such statutes, such penalties, such iniunctions, such advertisements, such articles, such canons, such sober caueats and such manifold pamphlets that in manner it doth but peep out from behind the skreen. The lawes of the land. the book of common prayer, the Queens iniunctions, the Commissioners aduertisements, the Bishops canons, Linwoods provincials, eueryevery Bishops articles in his dioces, my Lord of Canterburies sober …aueats, his licences to preachers, and his high court of prerogatiue or graue fatherly faculties. these to-gither or the worst of them, (as some of them be too bad) may not be broken or offended against, but with more danger then to offend against the bible. To the subscribing & subscribing agayn, & th… third subscribing are requ…red: for these preachers & others are indited▪ are fined, ar prisoned, are excommunicated, are banished, and hauehave worse things threatned them. And the Bible that must hauehave no further scope, then by these it is assigned. Is this to professe Gods word Is this a reformation? &c. Thus hauehave we your own confessiō what manner of instruments your church is builded with, and all men may, see, what small cause you hauehave to boast of the word of God, amongst you.
The matter of the building, is people ioyned togither in the profession of the Gospell. And what manner of people are ioyned togither in your church? are there not all sorts of profane, wicked and irreligious persons, as wel as religious and men of better life? and where find you in the scriptures such matter for Gods howse? The texts c1 Cor, 3, 9 Eph. 2.20.by you alleged teach farr otherweise: for the Church of Corinth, were saincts by calling, even called of God unto the fellowship of his sonne Iesus Christ. 1 Cor 1, 2, 9, and the Apostle neuer sayd to any profane or confused people ye are Gods husbandry. Gods building, So for the other text if you had minded eyther that which is before or after, it might hauehave stayed you from applying it to your church. For the Apostle writing to the aEph 1.1.Saincts, (not to the profane) which were at Ephesus, sayth, Now y… are no more strangers and forreners. but citizens with the saincts and of the how should of God;bEph 2.19 and after, he sheweth how in Christ cverse, 21.all the bulding coupled togither, groweth vntounto an holy temple in the Lord. But neyther are your people saints by calling. neyther can you say of your church of England, that all the bulding (of all the parishes) coupled togither, groweth to an holy Temple in the Lord; for your self here defend not all, but the best on…ly. And we know well, that the m…ltitudes of profane wicked persons and miscreants, meer strangers and forreners, are of the matter of your church; and are bu…lded in and with the same (if the word and sacraments doe bu…ld among you) even the vilest of the… when they goe to the gibbet, as pleasantly as d1 Sam 15.32.Agag did to his death Now mind with your sel…es, if God hauehave commanded to build his house with the fine Ceder and eEx. 26 15Sittim trees: & you take the thornes and briars of the wildernes, or wild figtrees of the playn: whether Christ (who fHeb. 3.2.is faithfull to him that hath appoynted him, even as Moses was in all his house,) when he shall take a view of all your work, will allow of your labours, and blesse you for them, as Moses blessed the builders of the tabernacle. Exod. 39.43. Your first argument therefore is to weak to vphold your church or best assemblies, and the assumption of your profyllogisme is denyed.
The 2 argument,
2. THose Churches whose true members are onelyonly espowsed to Christ, a true visible Churches; Ephe. 5.30.32 2. Cor. 11.2.
But the true members of our best assemblies. are espowsed onelyonly to Christ. Therefore &c.
Proof of the assumption,
They are espowsed onelyonly to Chrisi. which are indued with true sauing faith. Eph. 5 30.31.32. with Iohn. 15.3 4.5.7. &. 17, 20.21.
But the true members of our best assemblies, are indued with a true sauing faith confessed by Mr. Iohnson in Iakob. pag. 7· Look also in the confirmation of the 5. argument folowing here.
Therefore &c.
Answer.
HEre agayn you hauehave gott an other starting hole, whiles you plead but for the true members of your best assemblies; yet neither tel you vsus which are your best assemblies, nor who be the true members of them; that how to follow or where to finde you we cannot tel. As is aProv. 30.18, 19, 20.the way of an eagle in the aire, such is the way of an adultrous woman, it is hid and cannot be known. But I will see if I can discouer your falsehood though I cannot find your footing.
First I deny that the true members of your best assemblies are espowsed onelyonly to Christ. for (as the prophet sayd of Israel,) bIe, 3.2,lift vp your eyes ūto the high placs & behold wher you hauehave not plaied the harlot. Now whils a church doth play the harlot, Christ willeth vsus to plead with her, cHos 2.2.that she is not his wife, ney…her is he her husband. Idolatrie is spirituall whordome, as the Prophets testifie, Psa. 106 39. Ier. 3.9. Deut. 31.16. but the true members of your best assemblies, commit idolatrie in their daylie worship according to their Romish leiturgy or book of commō prayer, an idol of your own inuentiō. How are they thē espowsed to Christ alone? Yes they are (say you,) because they ar indued with true sauing faith I answer; Faith is in the hart, as it is writen, with the hart man beleeueth, Rom. 10.10. The hart no man knoweth but God alone; as agayn it is written, thou (Lord) onelyonly knowest the harts of all the children of men 1 King, 8, 39, So then I ask you how you know that your members hauehave true faith; your answer must needs be, (vnlesse you w…ll make your selfe a God,) you know it not but by their words and works. Wel thē let vsus bring these to th' trial; their confession and the…r practise; leauing their faith to God that knowes it The conf…ssion of the…r faith is set downe in their service book, the 12. articles of the Creed. But this Creed the Papists also confesse and read in their church; and if it will proue your people to hauehave true faith it will proue theirs to hauehave likewise; & you say no more for England, then for Rome. Agayn the Apostle sayth, there are some which dTit. 1.16professe that they know God but in works doe deny him, and are abominable and disobedient and to eueryevery good work reprobate. So then words are not yenough, to proue true faith But we must come to the Apostle Iames his triall, shew me thy fayth out of thy works; for faith without works is dead. Iam. 2.18.26.Now the works of your people are apparant to be evil; they standing in communion or confusion rather with the vnclean, profane and, wicked whereby al Gods holy things are defiled; as it is written, Num. 19.22. Hag. 2.14. submitting their soules to Antichristian prelates and priests, and hearing their voyce, contrari… to Iohn,) 10, 5. worshiping God in vayn, after their own invented seruice book, which is a high transgression of the second commandement; Exo 20 And these things are general and publick; the particular and more priuate in…q…ities, will not easily be numbred. Whereas therefore you would perswade vsus your church is espowsed onelyonly to Christ, (although her fornicat…ons are so manifest between her brests, because she sayth. she beleeveth only in Christ; it is with no more colour, then as if eGē 35.29Bilhah (whē she was known to lie with Reuben,) should hauehave pleaded; yet am I an honest woman, and espowsed to Iaacob onelyonly, for my louelove and harty affection is towards him alone. But the wise man teacheth vsus, these be but the tricks of an adultrous woman, she eateth and wipeth her mouth & sayth I hauehave done no iniquity. Pro, 30, 20.
The scriptures which your selfe allege; doe also make against your chvrch. Eph 5 30. We are members of (Christs) body. of his flesh and of his bones. F…rst your church can shew no covenant that was made between Christ and her, at any time: the gathering and planting of your church having been by the Magistrates authority: not by the word of Christ, winning mens soules unto his faith, separating them from the vnbeleevers, and taking them to communion with himselfe. Secondly, in saying his body, the Apostle excludeth al other bodies; as more plainlie appeareth in the other scripture, 2 Cor. 11.2. where he prepared the church as a pure virgin for Christ, which cannot be whiles she defileth her self with others; as doth your church with the abominations of the Papists; compāying also in the bed of louelove, with the Prelates, (whom the better son of you hauehave confessed to be Antichristian) and their infer…our priests, who work vponupon mens consciences by their jurisdiction, ministery, doctrines, canons &c. being as the bridegrooms of your church, not aIohn 3.29the friends of the bridegroom which stand and heare and reioyce for the bridegrooms voyce; for, that Christ should speak and rule, vnlesse it be according to their own canons; they cannot endure.
The other places in Iohn. 15. & 17. will confirme also that the true members of your best assemblies are not espowsed onelyonly to Christ For Christ sheweth,bIohn 15, 1 that his Father is the husbandman, who caleth and bringeth vntounto and planteth in him the true vine; all the branches, that is the particular persons of the Church. But the true members of your best assemblies: are as yet the branches of that false Antichristian vine. your confused church of England: not separated from, but liuing and growing in one stock, body and communion with the idolatrous and profain. So that you cannot say, as did the Israel of God. cPsa, 80, 8.Thou hast brought a vine out of Aegypt, thou hast cast out the heathens & plāted it. Christ sheweth that his branches were dver 2.3.purged of the Father, by the word spoken vntounto thē; your members ar not yet purged or clensed by the word of Christ, from their idolatries, and profane communion with the ympes of Satan,. The word of life the word of separatiō from the serpēt & his seed; hath not yet sounded in the eares, or at least, not sunk into the harts of your people. Christ branches ever. 5,bring forth much fruit, through their abiding in him, being able without him to doe nothing: your branches bear little fruit but vntounto themselues; and (as Moses foretold) fDeu 32·23their grapes are grapes of gal their clusters bitter, for the publick idolatries vsed in your assemblies, after the maner of the mother of Rome. shew that your vine is of the vine of gReu, 11, 8Sodom. Christ prayed onelyonly hIoh 17, 20 21.for them that should beleeu in him through the word, that they all might be one in the Father and the Son, as the Father in him, and he in the Father; but the true members of your best assemblies, are one with the world, for whome Christ would iver, 9,not pray; being on spiritual body, & ioyned in communiō with the whol multitude of profane and wicked of the land; That strange it is you should read the scriptures and not discerne, how farr you are from being vnited with Christ, who as himselfe was not of the world, ave 14, 16,so neyther are his people, but chosen and separated out of the same.
Whereas you bring no proof that your people hauehave true faith, but by Mr, Iohnsons confession; it sheweth how distressed and helplesse your estate is. Yet doe you great wrong to Mr. Io, (as the reader may see in the place that you cite;) For although considering them apart from the constitution of your Church he thinketh by the appearance of the knowledge faith and fruits of diuers. that they may well be thought in regard of Gods election in Christ, to be heirs of saluation, and in that respect true Christians: yet in respect of the constitution of your Church, he sayth, they can not be iudged true Christian. Now we deal against your church in regard of the constitution thereof; not doubting but God hath many elect heyres of sal…ation among you, which we leaue vntounto him that knowes them. Your argument then from Mr Iohnsons confession, is faultie, and agreeth not with the rules of right reasoning; for whereas he limiteth his iudgment of them, shewing in what respect it is & plainelie excepteth their church-constitution: you bear your reader in hand as if he granted it without l…mitation? and that too, according to the Scriptures in your first proposition, which evidently do concern the churches constitution. You may much abuse any mans words, if what he speaketh respectively you will take and allege as spoken absol…telie. So your proofe fayleth you.
In the end you referr vsus, to the confirmation of your 5, Argument following to the Answer wh…reof I also refer the reader
Now though I hauehave answered first to the assumption or second part of your argument on proof whereof you doe insist: yet the first part also shalbe better examined, ere I let it passe: Those churches (you say) whose true members are onelyonly espowsed to Christ. are true visible churches. By true members I conceiue you doe meane. (not as the truth is, all baptised and so reteyned in your church, but) some few choise persons, or forward professors, among whom there is an imaginary brotherhood, and separation from the other profane in your parishes; though invery deed they stand all one bodie. If thus you intend (as the proof of your assumption plainelie intimateth you do,) then offer you violence to the similitud of mariage or espowsall which al mē know is not with some few members of a womans body, as her fingers, or hands &c, but with the whole woman, who giueth her selfe by covenant vntounto her spowse or husband. And as in civill mariage so it is in spirituall; for Israel of old. when the Lord became a bIer 31.32husband vntounto them, did not some of them, but cExo, 19. Deut, 5.3.22. &. 29.10.11.12,all the multitude generally make covenant with their God: the scriptures also which you alleg, Eph, 5.2 Cor 11 speak of the whole body of the church, not of a few select members of the same. For though it be true of every visible church, that some onelyonly are elect howsoeuer all be called; yet the discerning of this belongeth to God alone, and not to vsus; who esteem of persons according to their outward covenant profession, and walking. Your reason then seemes to be like this; That womans …hose true members,) as namely. her eye, and eare. and some of her fingers) are espowsed on…ly to such a man. She is his true and lawfull wife. But the true members of N, (howsoeuer her whole bodie in generall is coupled with an adulterer; and the most of her members ar affected and wholly giuen ouer to that adulterer, and her pretended husband they hate, & never made couenāt with,) ar espowsed only to such a man Threfore. &c. If this reason be not absurd. let him that readeth iudge; and if such absurdity be not implyed in your argument, shew if you can in your next writing; for if you striue to avoyd this, you will fall into another evill as shall then be manifested.
The 3. argument
IN what churches soever, is such an ordinance of God in publick vse and for… by which there is ordinarily made an vndoubted resurrection or quickning frō the death of sinne vntounto the life of grace, and a new birth: they are true visible churches of Christ. Iam, 1, 18, 1 Pet, 1 23.
But in the best of our assemblies is such an ordinance of God &c. Theref…e &c.
The assumption is manifest. because by that ordinance of preaching which is in publick vse and force. there is ordinarily made an vndoubted new birth; seing there doe ordinarily appear in many. the vndoubted fruites and testimonies of Gods spirit, after the publick and ordinary preaching of the word. in our best assemblies.
Answer.
THE first part of this your argument seemeth to imply an error; as that a church is first gathered & constituted of an vnregenerate profane and worldly people; over which are set Pastors and Teachers, who by preaching the Gospel doe beget them or some of them vntounto th… faith and quicken them from the death of sinn &c which quickning or new birth, is a proof that they are a true visible church. This course I finde to be contrary vntounto the scriptures; which I would thus manifest. When the Lord Iesus would shew mercy to the world, and call his elect out of the same, he sent aMar 16.25 Ep 4, 11Apostles Prophets and Evangelists to preach his saluation to all peoples. The people to whom they preached, wer… not (for the most part) churches of God. but assemblies of heathens and idolaters; as for example, the men bAct. 14 8 11.14. &cof Lystra of cAct. 18, 6 10.1… i 1 Co 12.2.Corinth; of Athens where Paul preached dAct. 17.2….32.34in Mars street; and other like places. By meane… of this manner preaching many …eople were regenerate or be…ne a new quickned from the death of s…e. a…d tu…ed from idols to the liuing God. And being thus begotten vntounto God, they were aA…t, 19.9separated from others that bel…eued not. and ioyned togither into a holy com…union, not hauing other officers over them for a while till men were fitted for such a worke. Therefore oft times the Apostles departed to other places and left the Evangel…sts to bTit, 1, 5,redresse things that remayned, and to ordein them Elders in every citie, as the Apostles appoynted them These Elders, called generally cPhil. 1.1Bishops or Ouerseers, had charge dAct. 20.17.28 1 Pe …, 1.2.of their particular flocks, and might not goe from them as did the Apostles. but attend and feed them: These now could not properly be sayd to beget their peo…le to the faith, (as the Apostle noteth e1 Cor 4.15to the Corinthians) but to feed and instruct them; and therefore are not called Fathers, but fforeignFeeders, or Pasters. and Pedagogues. Child-leaders or Instructeurs. From which I gather, that people must regenerate and borne again, before they may be admitted into any particular church, or hauehave officers ouer them; and that ordinary ministers, which feed their flocks, cannot be sayd to beget them, as is the common vawnt of you Ministers in England. which me thinks even reason it selfe might shew you: For you that are now over your parishes, how found you your people at first, a church or no church? If you say a church then you begat them not, but entred vponupon other mens labours that were before you if you say they were not a church, then you condemn the state of your parishes as they were planted, before you were their Ministers. Now then to come to your …roposition; In whats…ever churches (that is assemblies. for so I vnderstand you to vse the werd generallie,hAct. 19.32.39 as the gforeign,Scripture sometime vseth Ecclesia, (is such an ordinance of God in publick vse and force, by which there is ordinarily made an vndoubted new birth &c. they are true visible churches of Christ: This I denie; for in the assemblies of the heathens in the Apostles daies (as before is proued) there was such an ordinance of God sometimes in publick vse and force, as by it ordinarilie there was made an vndoubted new birth; as th' fruit of th' Apostles preaching sheweth· yet were not those assemblies of heathens, true visible churches of Christ. but such onelie as were converted to God and separated from the rest that beleeved not; and joyned in a holy communion togither were true visible churches.
Whereas you assume, that in the best of your assemblies is such an ordinanc… of God &c this also I denie for your ministers are not Gods ordinance, he hath not called or sent them, they execute no lawfull office in your assemblies. But your assumption (you say) is manifest, because by that ordinance …f preaching which is in publick vse and force. there is ordinarily made an vndoubted new birth. I answer, first in verie many of your assemblies there is no such ordinance of preaching in publick use, as you here b…ast of; but bare reading onelyonly: yet those assemblies are by the Constitutions of your church, to be reputed as true visible churches as the other. Secōdly in those other other where preaching is, I deny that there is ordinarily mad… an vndoubed new birth; Your proof is, because th…re do ordinarily appear in many, the undoubted fruites and testimonis of Gods spirit &c. I answer, first if this be so, yet what will these many, help the mo…t and greatest …umber, in whom such fruits appear not? When many of the hethens beleeued the Apostles word, did their beleef bring the other that beleeued not, into the church did not the Apostles separate the beleeuers from the rest. and a2 Cor. 6, 14.7.teach them to come from among them? Yet you for the faith of some, will vnite all the assemblie vntounto Christ and his church, contrary to the Apostles practise, and to all the scriptures. Secondly, I deny that there doth ordinarily appear in many such vndoubted fruits of Gods spirit after your ordinary preaching as for which we may esteem them true visible churches. Some fruites I kn…w there doe appear; so doe there among the Papists: yea they take occasion for such things to bPap. supto the K. reason of relig. 22.20.reproch you. that there follow not so many good works after your preaching as after their doctrine; but among neyther of you: are those fruits seen, wh…ch by the testimonie of scriptures will proue you true visible churches. So we hauehave here but your bare affirmation to rest vponupon: and though I might thus end with as bare a deniall: t…l you bring further proof, yet for to help the reader. I wil shew that ordinarily there appeareth not a new birth after your preaching. Because of your publick idolatrous estate, where…n you stand subiect to Antichristian Prelat…s and canons whiles you hauehave your publick worship after the Romish idolatrous manner, and are stil comming led in one bodie with the profane, and ser…ents seed, with many other evils among you: which plainly shew you want the new birth and are stil in your old mothers womb. This the scriptures which you allege in your proposition will confirme; for the Apostles shew, Iam, 1, 18 1 Pet 1, 23. that Christs church is a people begotten of God with the word of truth; that is the cCol, 1, 5,Gospell: but your church was first begotten. gathered, constituted, ordered, and is still continued, by the Magistrates word and authority; which if it did not inforce the people. the estate wherein you now stand, would soon be changed; your church dissolved, and eyther be better or Worse. And where you learned so to inforce f…th, and constrein men to be members of your church I can not tel; vnlesse you follow Mahomets doctrine who dAlcoran, …hap 18 & 19.taught that men should be compelled to the faith, by warr and sword.
Againe, the Apostle addeth this for a testimony and end of our new birth, that we should be as the first fruit… of Gods creatures This men are not, till they be as was Israel, hallowed to the Lord; Ier, 2, 3, which was by separation from the world Levit, 20.26, and a willing covenant with the Lord Exod. 19.5, 6.8; D…ut, 26, 17, 18, 19, And that the like must be of vsus Christians, an other scr…pture confirmeth, saying, eRui… …These are they w…i…h are not defil…d with women, for th…y are virgins; (this implyeth a se…ar…t…on from the world; …h…s… f…llow the Lamb whith…rsoeuer he goeth, (this argueth a couenant and communion with Chri…t: and in the next words. both poynts are repeted.) these are 1 bought from men. being the first fruits 2 …nto G…d and to the Lamb: after this followeth the fruit, *uer, 5.and in their mouth … found no guile, for they are without spot before the throne of God. Whereas therefore you hauehave stood so long against vsus for separation and would mainteyn a meer confusion of all sorts of people in a C…rch, vponupon an imaginary separation made in the clowdes of your own fansies whiles outwardly and indeed, you are one body with the wicked: you are vndoubtedly …ot yet borne a new; your Church hath not strength to bring forth: your ministers are vnskilfull midwiues; and the saying of the Prophet cōcerning the people of Ephraim, is verified also v…ō your people be is an vnwise son. els would be not stand still such a time. even in the breaking forth of the child…en. Hos 13, 13.
The 4. Argument.
IN what churches soeuer all things needfull to saluation by publick authory…y and g…n…rall approbation, are ordinarily and publickly taught they are true visible Churches.
But in the best of our assemblies are &c.
Therefore true visible churches.
Proof of the assumption,
In what churches soeuer ar ordinarily and publickly taught. the doctrines wh… by the people of God were conuerted and saued in the time of Christ and his Apostles. in those churches are all things needfull to saluation taught. But in th… b…st of our assemblies are &c, Ergo &c. Proof of this assumtion appeareth out of Luk. 1.77, 78. with Mar. 1, 4.15. Luk. 24, 47. Act. 2.37, 38, 41. Act, 11, 17 18. Act 16.30.31, and 20.21.
If it be o…i…cted that the poynts in question betwen vsus. be needfull to saluation: it is thus disproued.
Al things needfull to saluation are cleerly set downe in the scriptures to the vnderstanding of the spiritual 1 Cor 2.15. Dan 12.10. Pro. 8 9. …nd the things that are not open to the spirituall, are not needfull to saluation.
But the p…ynts in question between us, are not cleerly s…t down in scripture to the vnderstanding of the spirituall; as appeareth both by thowsands of …inist…rs and peo…le of the church of England and o…her forr…yn churches among …h…me are the cheefest lights of this age as Caluin, Beza, Iunius, Fiscat…r. Gualter. Zanchius with others, which were vndoubtedly spirituall; are of c…ntrary iudgement to the Separatists as also in that it is not agreed vp…n among themselues. what is the discipline and order required by the word in …ue…y p…ynt, nor in …any other poynts of difference among them. namely touching the diff…rences of the office of Doctor and Past…r &c.
Answer.
FIrst wishing the reader to remember what is answered to the fi…st part of your former Syllogisme; I wil with out further re…etition, proceed p…oceed in answer of this; where the gro…nd and proposition of your first argument is vnperfect, so that which you build thereon is vnsound. For whereas you speake of all things n…full to s…lauation &c. to be publickly taught: you should hauehave added also, are obser…ed or done; according to Christs saying Iob. 15, 14ye are my freinds if ye doe whatsoever I commaund you. If men hear truth taught and obey it not, it avayles them nothing Ther… fore as the Apostle saith, ‡… ….22be ye doers of the word, and not hearers onelyonly. d… ceiuing your selues.
Your assumption also is denyed: for in your best assemblies all things needfull to saluation be not taught, much lesse done or practised. To giuegive an instance; to be separated from the vnbeleevers, and to be ioyned togither vntounto a holy com…union and church; is needfull to sal…ation; 2 Cor, 6, 17.18. Act, 1 47, Isa 65.9, Reu 21, 24. This is neither taught not practised in your a…semblies but oppugned by all the cauils you can. Your proof of the a…s…m…tion is, a comp…rison of your church with those in Christs time and th' Apostles. I answer you agayne, your church is not like those in d…trine or in practise of things needfull to saluation.
Then you say, the proof of this assumption appeareth out of Luk. 1.77. &c. This is a strange proof of your assumption, which is this, But in the best of our ass…mblies are taught &c. Doth Luk 1, 77. shew what is taught in your a…semblies? and why doth not Mat, 15, 9. and 23, 16 17, &c. shew what is taught there also? The places that you allege shew what doctrine was taught in the Iewish and Apostolick churche…; not what is taught in yours. It must be therefore your own writings, sermons, doctrine, practise and estate. that must proue your a…sumption. But you will say (perha…s) your doctrines and practises. agree with those mentioned in these scriptures. That I deny; and would therfore that you should hauehave made application of the particulars: Which because you hauehave not done, I will doe for you.
You allege Luk, 1, 77.78. with Mar, 1.4.15 where knowledge of saluation is giu…n unto (Gods) people. by remission of their sinns, through the tender mercy of our God &c. & this was done, by preaching the baptisime of amendement of life, for r…mission of sinns. and beleef in the Gospel. So in Luk. 24, 47 repentance and remission of sinns should be preached in Christs name among all nations. The same things are also taught in all the other places which you cite, as the reader may see in the texts. Now these things (you will say) are taught and obserued among you. I shew the contrary thus.
First you giuegive knowledge of saluation, (though faslly) vntounto other then to his, that is to Gods people; in as much as you giuegive the sacraments, which are the seales of our saluation vntounto the profane and wicked and their seed thus prostituting the most holy things. even Christ h…mselfe, vntounto hat…rs a…d bl…sphemers of God, (a… you cann …r deny but a number of yo…r church are) and such as make a mock of religion; and herein you ar…u… ty of high sacrilege agai…st God.
Secondly, the doctrine of repentance. is not truly taught nor obeyed in y…ur Ch…rch. For vntounto true repentance is required, 1 a knowledge or notice giuen and taken of sinns; Isa 58, 1, Lam, 2, 14 & 3 39, 40. 2 an acknowledgment or confession made of sinns, (as a testimony of true sorrow of hart,) with asking mercy Leu 4, 13, 14. &c, & 5, 5.6, Psal. 32, 3, 5, 3 and a for…aking of sinns, or amendement of life. Prou. 28, 13, Psal, 28.21.2 Cor. 7, 11. Eze. 18, 21.
N…w the sinns of your church hauehave not by your Ministers been signifie… to yo…r people; as namely their confuse estate and commixture with the wicked; though it be a sinne every where reproued in the scriptures. as before is shewed.
The great transgressions which your people dayly commit in Gods publ…ck worship, whiles, you hauehave your own wilworship, and stinted prayers with…t warrant from Chr…sts testament, read in place of Gods true spirituall service; these are not preached against, reproued or cast out by your ministers doctrine; but contrariwise, they hauehave by word & writing so…ght to m…inteyn the same. The seru…le subiection that both ministers and people, are in, vnderunder your Lords the Bishops and their courts; is not disco…ere… by your min…sters to be a sinne and bondage which you must depart from, if you wil be subiect to that onelyonly Lord & maister Chr…st though secretly they hauehave sought to vndermine that jurisdict…on of B…shops wh…ch how ca… they doe, if it be of Christ; or how may a…y sta…d vnderunder it, if it be of Antichrist?
This being the sinfull state of your church, as we wel know. (and you ar neuer able to iust…fy your selues;) your ministers not teaching repentāc for these things, nor being suffred by your Church to speak against them, teach not repentance truely. For, It is not yenough to cry out of Idolatry, or to preach repentance from sinns in generall; for so they doe among the Papists, but the perticuler sinns of eueryevery people and pers…n mu…t be reproued; yea every sinne that is seen and discerned, or els your preachers doe not their dutie. Gods word teacheth u… t…at …f a man walke in any one sinne though he doe not all he shal n…t liue. but die the de…th Ezek. 18, 11, 13. W…en Gibeah was giuen ove… *Iudg. 19 …2, & ▪to the Sinne of Sodom, if the Priests and prophets should hauehave preached against idolatrie, swearing, breaking of the Sabbath, and such like evils. and not against that particular filthynes which the people followed should they hauehave preached repentance truly? When Israel followed ‡1 Kin: 12 28, 29.30.Iereboams calues at Dan and Bethel, if the ministers then had preached against Sodo…ie, whordome, drunkennes, and the like, and not cried out a…ainst that present idol worship, but pleaded rather for it: sh…uld they hauehave t…u…ht repenatnce truly? Even thus it is with your best min…ster…, they will th…de… out in their pulpits, against Popery, and idol…try in …e…er…ll a…ainst theft, whordome, pr…de, coueteousnes, and m…y o…her i…q…ie…, but the sinne which cleaueth so fast to the bones of …o…r Church, t…e heynous enormities in Gods worship amongst you▪ these they meddle not with, neither vponupon payn of excommunicati… draw the people to repentance for them; as after I will further shew. Perhaps now and then they will glance at the Bps. or some other corruptions, but bring the people from vnderunder these iniquities, they doe not, nay they plead for them rather, and cry o…t vponupon vsus, which hauehave forsaken so grosse ab…minations.
Now there being no notice giuen by the ministers, or taken by the people of the si…ns wherein they liue: the other two parts of true re…entance doe also fail among you: for farr you be from confessing your sins, which though you offer the sacrifice of fools,Eccl. 4, 17, yet will you not know that you doe evill, and most farr from amending them, when with so high a hand you doe maintain them: although the testimonie and s…ffrings of vsus your dis…ised and persecuted brethren, against them, hauehave sounded in your eares now man…e a day. Thus teach they not repentance aright.
As for faith it cannot be sound, and true, where it hath not ground o… the couenant and promise of God: Gods couenant and …romise of saluation, you hauehave not without repentance, as Christ sayd, *Luk. 13, 3 5,Except ye repent. you shall all likewise p…rish for surely God will wound the ‡Psa, 68, 21,hairie …ate of him that walketh in his sinnes. To preach faith therefore. and a…ply iustification by faith, to an vnrepentant people, is to …rofane that holy doctrine, and turne the grace of God into licent…ousnes. But to giuegive the seales of the righteousnes of faith, (baptisme, and the Lords supper) to the wicked blasphemers, irreligious, and to their seed, it is a sinne of sin… for which your ministers shall giuegive an heauy account to Christ at his appearing. as hauehave counted the …recious blood of his testament an vnholi… thing. and washed and fed therewith e…en doggs and swine, as the scripture ”Ma…, 7.6calleth such vngodly …ersons. And thus you hauehave not truly taught among you eyther rep…ntance from dead works or faith towards God, which are the doctrine of the beginning of Christ and the very foundation, as the †Heb. 6, 1Apostle saith.
I will now also compare the practise of the Apostles (in the plac… which you cite) with yours, that the reader may see how your right eye is blinded, to bring scripture so playn against your selues. In Act. 2, 37, &c, the manner of gathering and planting that church‘ is thus described. There was first the word preached. by the Apostles, verse 14 &c which being heard, pricked the harts of the …eople, verse, 37. there was repentance taught (not for adultery, theft, worshiping of Idols o… the like, whereof it may be that people was not knowen to be guilty. but) for their particular trespasse in *so after more plainly Act 1, 13 14.19, 26,refusing of Iesus Christ, into whose name they must be baptised, if they would be saued, verse 38, then followed a playn separation from such as frowardly resisted the truth. vers. 40, and none were baptised or ioyned to the church but such as gladly receiued the word verse· 41. After this followed a cont…newing (notwithstanding the imminent peril of trouble and persecution for the truth sake,) in the Apostles doctr…ne, and fellowship, and breaking of bread, and prayer…; verse 42, If you had walked in this primitiue churches steps you should before the constituting of your Church, hauehave preached vntounto the poor ignorant and idolatrous Papists, (which was the generall face of the land at Q Maries death,) repentance for their sinns in all their idolatries. w…ll worships, and superstitions, subiection to Antichrist, his prelacie, priesthood, and gouernment. &c. To such as had their harts pricked with your doctrine, you should hauehave shewed the true way of the Gospel faith, and holy walking therein You should hauehave taugh… them a separation from the profane and obstinate; and hauehave gathered into the Church, such onelyonly as gladly receiued the word; and with them you should hauehave walked in a holy communion and practise of Christs ordinances, th…ugh Princes and Parl…aments, tho…gh men and Angels, should hauehave forbidden, & threatned you for it. Thus had your church beē the daughter of th…t mother church in Ier…salem, whereas now by neglecting this patterne, and reteyning the Popish confuse multitude, and a great part of their ministery and worship; you hauehave imitated B…bylon …e mother of fornications, a…d …re as vnlike Sion, as you are like your selues.
The objection which you feared, and therefore would prevent with answer.: is yet of more weight then will be eased by your syllogisme; the a…sumption whereof I deny For the true constituting of a Church by the word perached, call…ng men to a willing holy covenant with God sep…ratin… them from the wayes of Satan & Antichrist. his false & idoatr…s worship, priesthood and government. vniting them togither in the com…union of the true faith, and bond of louelove and peace, (which ar the controuersies between you and vsus,) these poynts are cleerly set down in scriptures to the vnderstand…ng of the spirituall, as the history of all the Bible, and the pract…se of the Apostles, and primitiue churhes already alleged doe plainely shew and I am sure you will not deny, but they were spirituall.
Whereas you would …roue, they are not clearely set downe to the vnderstand of the spirituall, because thowsands of ministers and people of the chur…h of Engl…nd, are of contrary iudgment to vsus: first we hauehave many testimonies of your own min…sters for the things that we defend against you as in *pag. 2.3. answer, to Mr Hild Mr, Iak.this and other books we hauehave manifested. Secondly, if we had no such testimony, yet what doe you but make your selues iudges in your own cause, that though we bring never so playn evidence against you from the word, yet if you see it not, or wil not see. it must not be needful for saluation. More vnsound and popish doctrine hath seldome been taught But I leaue vpō you the saying of Christ vntounto the Pharisees, If you …ere blinde ye should not hauehave sinne. but now ye say, WE SEE therefore your sin remayneth, Iohn, 9, 11.
And whereas you further bring aginst vsus, forreyn churches, and speciall persons the chiefest lights of this age, first mind whither this be not …lso … ground of Popery, so to presse humane authority: and whether the Papists cannot for many of the…r heresies, allege the ancient fathers, (the chiefests lights of their ages) whome your selues I suppose will not deny but to be spirituall, seing their test…monies are often alleged by your church in pulpits and in print.
Secondly, this your dealing is such, as both the better sort of the late Fathers (as Augustine for example, *August cē tra Maxim l. 3 c. 14 Nec ego nicenā Sinodū tibi, nec tu mihi Arimi nemsē debes …bijcere scriptuarum authoritatibus res &c.who was of m…nde that counsels, Bishops &c. ought not to be obiected, for triall of controuersies, but the holy scriptures onelyonly,) and the very superstitious Popelings themselues hauehave condemned: saying that ‡Panormitā de electio et elect Potest. …. signis:we are rather to beleeu …ne priuat… faithfull man then a whol Councel. and the Pope (himselfe) if a man hauehave better a…thorety & reason on his side.
Thirdly your obiection and pleading against vsus, is much like as if the Iewes should hauehave obiected against Christianity. thus: It is not needfull to saluation to beleeu that Iesus who was cruc…fied is the Christ: for then it would be cleerly set down in scripture to the vnderstanding of the spirituall Dan 12, 10, Prou, 8, 9, but that it is not for the thousands of priests and people of Israel, Gods own people, among whom are the chiefest lights of this age, the Rabbines, expounders of the law &c. which are vndoubtedly spiritu…ll; are of contrary judgment to you his disciples, Iob 7 47, 48, 49.52.
Fourthly, (as I hauehave before answered) forreyn churches, and the lights in them, hauehave cleerly seen the things we stand for, and doe asse…t with vsus, touching separation from Antichristianisme, gathering into and walking in a holy communion of Saincts, and other poynts of greatest moment between you and vsus. as their Harmony of Confessions, besides other particular books many. doe testify. If you obiect their particular judgment of your churches estate, I answer, that is not needfull to saluation therefore they may misse in it; and yet be spirituall: for if men i… their own churches profes…e and walke in the truth so farr as God giues them to see; and thinke better of other churches then they doe deserue, such errors even the most spirituall are subiect vntounto.
It was cleerly revealed in scriptures that the Gentiles should be called vnderunder the Gospell, Deut 32.43 Gen. 12, 3 Psal. 67. &, 117 Isa. 11.10 Chr…st …imself plainly confirmed and commanded it, Mat, 28.19, Iohn, 10, 16, Act 1, 8. Yet the Apostle Peter himselfe and many other spirituall men, perceiued it not till in more speciall and particular weise it was to them reuealed Act. 10.14, 28, 34, 3…, &, 11, 2, …, 18. As Peter and many other godly then, fayled in esteeming worse of the Gentiles then they should: so learned and godly men now may fayl, in esteeming better of your est…t… then it doth deseru….
The 5. Argument.
WHatsoeuer church is the mother of the faithfull, is a true visible church, but the best of our assemblies are &c. Ergo true visible churches.
The preposition is true. because that regeneration and new birth, is onelyonly ordirarily wrought by the word preached, Rom, 10.8.17. Iam. 1.18. 1, Pet. 1, 23. which is onelyonly and ordinarily found in the visible Church. Gal, 5, 26. 1 Iohn. …. 5.
The assumption is true, because many are ordinarily new borne in our best assemblies, by the ordinance of preaching in publick vse and force; as appeareth by Mr Iohnsons foresayd confession, as also by the meanes of the causes and meanes ordeyned by God to beget faith in the hearers, and efficacie, thereof, Esa. 55, 11, Rom. 10.17, and lastly, …y the infallible effects of faith, and fruits of the spirit, appearing in the true members of our best assemblies, Gal. 5, 6, 22.
Answer.
HEre you seem to bring a new argument, though it be but the old in a new coat: for take away this mantel wherewith your Major is clothed, The mother of the faithfull; and all the rest wilbe but regeneration and new birth. wrought as (you say) by the preaching in your best assemblies. Which things we heard in your third argument, and there refuted. As you here vrge them agayn, I further answer, first to your proposition. Whatsoever church (say you) is the mother of the faithfull, is a true visible church But Israel (say I) in her idolatrous estate, was the mother of the faithfull; yet was she not in that estate a true visible church: therfore your proposition is not true
That Israel then was the mother of the faithfull, appeareth by the words of the Lord Plead with your mother Hos, 2, 2, That they which were willed thus to plead,*ver 1 were the faithfull appereth by the…r names Ammi & Ruhamah, that is, My people and she that hath obteyned mercy. That yet notwithstanding this mother was not a true visible church, appeareth by the Plea to be made against her, ‡ver, 2.She is not my wife, neyther am I her husbād: her estate being (as elsewhere is sayd) ”2 Chr, 15 3,without the true God; and her children that continewed in her idolatrie, should †Hos. 2, 4.obteyn no mercy, Thus you see a church may be sayd to be the mother of the faithfull, and yet not be a true Church of God.
You would confirme the proposition to be true. because regeneration and new birth is ordinarily wrought by the word preached, which is one lie and ordinarily, found in the visible church. I answer, the word preached is to be found also in the false church; as among Papists, Anabaptists, Anabaptists &c. as ordinarie if not more ordinarie then …n many of you… assemblies: and although there be not such or so many truthes …aught among them as are among you, yet the word that is taught, hath effect for sanct…fication of life, in as great measure, as ordinar…ly appeareth in your Church of Engl.; where so much profannes reigneth, as all men see and know.
The church of Rome. is as your selues pr…fe…e, a fal…e church: yet doubt I not, neyther doe I thinke you doubt but sundrie children hauehave been borne vntounto God by that harlot. The church of En…land, it as we professe; a false church, your Ministery also fal…e: yet God which brought light out of darknesse, hath brought forth, (I do…bt not,) and saued many of his dear ch…ldren among you. But let not thi… embolden the rest to continew with you in your false est…te: least they finde no mercy with the Lord, because they be children of fornications.
To your assumption then I answer, as you first set it down. I graunt it; yet will not your conclusion follow for it may be a mother of the faithfull and yet no true visible church; for the reason foreshewed, But as you afterward explain your selfe saying; the assumption is true because many a…e ordinarily new borne, &c. I deny it thus to be true, because neyther is a new birth ordinarily to be had among you neither hauehave you Gods ordinance of preaching in publick vse and force. If your people were truel…e regenerate they would not sinne; m…stike me not, I know the remainders of sinne dwell in the best men, and draw them to that they neyther *Rom 7 15would not ought, but as th… Apostle sayth, ‡1 Ioh 3.9.He that is borne of God sinneth not. And seing so many and great sinns reign in your best assemblies. how can you say you are regenerate? for I hauehave before manifested, that ordinarilie people are kept and continued among you, in an vnholy communion with the wicked and irreligious, and nourished with s…perstition and idolatr…: these and the like things are no tokens of true regeneration.
Mr Iohnsons confession, is ”pag. 39,before treated of: and will not import that which you would infer.
The causes and meanes ordeyned by God to beget faith, are not by Esa, 55 11, R…m, 10.17. proued to be among you For there is spoken of the word going out of the Lords mouth: but your min…sters are not the Lords mouth, because they ha…e not from him their calling;†Rom. 10.15. sending and authoritie to preach, b…t hauehave it from his enemie Antichrist, and (as the Apostle saith) how shal th…y preach except they be sent? Neither are they as the Lords mouth: because they separate not the precious from the vile. Ier. 15 19.
Neyther are the infallible effects of faith &c. proued by G…l. 5, 6, …2. to be in the true members of y…ur best assemblies: For seing faith is there *ver, 6.sayd to work by louelove, and there is no louelove of Christ, vnlesse men ‡Ioh 14.1…· & 15.10keep his commandements, and his command…ments are not kept in your idolatrou… assemblies: it cannot be affirmed that you louelove the Lord, if so you contine… continew in sinne: or that you hauehave true faith. But rather, seing the contrary works of the flesh; which the Apostle there mentioneth. *Ga, 5, …9 20.…1.adultery. fornication, &c, idolatrie, witchcraft, hatred &c. contentions. seditions heresies, &c. are found in the true members of your church, (for all among you are baptised, and all baptised are true members;) you are more rightly to be reputed vnregenerate and vnsanct…fied, in that your sinnfull and confused estate. Neyther hauehave you Christs ‡1 Cor. 5,power in your best assemblies to cast out the wicked from among you: but they are fostered. f…d, and blessed. with your word, prayers, sacraments, &c. and such as absteyn from your idolatrie and from communion with the wicked; you hate, reproach, excommunicate and persecute: that your church, is indeed, a mother to the profane. But a stepmother to the faithfull.
The 6, argument,
THose Churches for whome the Churches of God rei…yce. are true Churche… 2. Thes. 1.4.
But our best assemblies are such, for whome the churches of God reioyce.
Ergo.
The reason of the proposition is, because the churches of God hauehave the spirit of discerning; a true church and ministery from a false; as Ioh 10.27, 5. Ma… 24, 24 1 Cor. 14 32. and 10.15· 1 Ioh. 4 1·
The assumption is true; because all the churches of God, reioyce, in our best assemblies; and hauehave giuen vsus the right hand of fellowship and testimony of a tru… …hurch; hauing ioyned our publick confession with their Harmony.
Answer.
THIS argument is one and the same, with the third of your first Constlerations, saue that it hath gotten the fashion of a syllogisme. The in s…fficiencie of this reason, I hauehave there shewed, and thether doe referr the reader. Further here I answer, that you turne the testimony of the reformed churches, to your best advantage, yet neyther with equitie, nor good successe For they joy not for your best assemblies, more then for your worst. but for your Church in generall, and the confe…sion of the same. They rejoyce for every Bishop, Priest and Deacon, and for every Parish that maketh such confession. as Bishop Iewel in his Apologie hath set down: Part of which Apologie they hauehave vnited with their Harm…nie. And why bring you them as approuing your best assemblies onelyonly. Your Lords the Prelates may truely say you doe them wrong: to apply vntounto your selues the applause which other churches giuegive to their Apologie. They wil tel you in your own words, the churches of God hauehave the spirit of discerning a true church and Ministery from a false. But the reformed …hurches hauehave discerned the nationall church of England, (whereof the Archb…shop of Cant· is Pastor… to be a true church; they hauehave discerned the Di…cesan Bish…ps in England as well as the Parish Priests, to be true Ministers; and reioyce as well for their Sees, as for yo…r Parishes, hauing joyned these all alike in their Harmony And what will you (that suff…r s… many things for sep…rating in y…ur ch…rch. as yo… s…yd) answer to your right reverend Fathers, against whome like vnnaturall children, yo… hau… striven so long, and would have them with their j…risd…ct…on …ut out of your church th…t the P…r…sh priest or Deacon m…ght Lord it alone.
More particularly I answer: yo…r first propostion is vnsound, & cannot be pro…ed from the scripture you allege 2 Th…s. 1.4. from which text yo… must conclude on this fa…h…on. P…ul and Siluanus and Timotheu… reioyced of the Thesalonians in other churches of G…d, because of their pacience and faith in all persecutions &c. Therefore the reformed churche… reioycing for the church of England. it must needs be a true church. The conseq…ence is denied. True churches may err in their judgment of an other church, especialy if the… be not rightly informed of the stat… thereof? as the reformed churches are not by that your Apologie. Moreover he that mindeth the things recorded of that church, 1 Thes. 1, 3, 6, 7, 9 &c. and the different estate to be seen in your church: may soon percei…e their is no l…ke cause of joy for you …s for them; that if there be a l…ke effe…t, it is in error.
The reason of the proposition, is no better confirmed by the scriptures you allege: For when Chr…t sayth Iohn. 10, 27, 5. M… sheep h…ar my voyce and they will not follow a stranger; doeth he send his sheep to other flocks, to try their shepheards by; or if I see my shepheard to be a th…ef, a hireling, a wolf? m…st I commit my sowl vntounto h…m, because other shepherds w…ll giuegive him the right hand o… fellowship? In the other scriptures, say n…t the Apostles to the particular churches. and persons, *1 Cor, 10, 15.iudge ye what I sa… ? ‡1 Ioh 4 1.try ye th… sp…rit and beleeue not eueryevery spirit; But you would not hauehave our selues to iud…e or try, but to send over sea, and hear what other churches iudge; if they ap…roue we must not disalow. You may as wel bid vsus. put out our own eyes. that other men may lead vsus; and as soon will we foll…w you in that, as in this your popish counsell. We have learned to liue by ”Hab, 2.5our own faith. and know that †Gal. 6.5.every man shall beare h…s own b…rden, and answer for himself to God.
But you will tell vsus, if we can iudge and discerne the true church: others can doe it also and better. I answer, I may err iudgment, & so may others, even whole churches, therefore let eueryevery man look how he iudgeth, and how he de…endeth on other men: and let evey mans …udgment be tried by the scriptures. For this cause we say vntounto you; seing we hauehave fought for the judgement of other churches, but can get no answer. procure you some reasons from them, in defence of your church, ministerie, worship, and ecclesiasticall gouer…ment: and if by Gods word they can just…fy those things, and evince that we hauehave done evil to depart from you: we will returne vntounto you. Otherwise if they reioyce neu…r so m…ch for your estate: we are ver…ly perswaded, that both they and you hauehave more caus… to mourne, for the many abominations that are am…ng …
To conclude, consider in an example, the weight of your argument; for by the like re…son the envious ministers in Pauls time, mought thus ha…e just…fied themselues
That m…nisterie and ministration for which the Apostles of Christ reioyce, is true to be obeyed, and continued in. But our ministery and min…stration is such as for it the Apostle Paul reioyceth, yea and will r… ioyce Philip … 16.18.
If you Answer the Apostle reioyced for the preaching of Christ, not forthe envious affection of the preachers, who might be damned themselues, notwithstanding their true doctrine: it is true. And so minde I for the reformed churches. They reioyce for the many truthes you profes…e against Popery, (as we also doe the like,) yet may you neverthelesse perish for your false constitution, idolatrous worship, popish hierarchie and other transgressions that are among you. Amend your liues therefore, and turne your feet into the wayes of peace, for if you rely vponupon man, an… make …lesh yo…r arme; and will not he…r the word of the Lord that condemneth your iniquities. you sh…ll perish in your sinns, & other ch…rches shall not be able to excuse of s…ue you