Counterpoison Considerations — Henry Ainsworth

Counterpoison Considerations · Henry Ainsworth

CONSIDERATIONS, Touching the poynts in difference, betvveen the godly … people of the Church of England; and the seduced brethren, of the separation.

A Separation we deny not, from the corruptions of the Church wherein we liue; 1 in iudgment, 2 profession, 3 practise: 1 of teaching eu…ry part of truth and righteousnes; 2 of performing the things we teach; 3 of reprouing every part of sin and error; 4 and absteyning from all corruptions of life and d…ctrine: for which particulars, so many of both parts hauehave suffred and doe suffer so many things. But the difference is, we suffer for separating in the Church: you, out of the Church. And this to be true, you know: vnlesse you will cauill, against your own conscience and knowledge.

Answer.

WHO so examineth these your Considerations, and weigheth them in the ballance of equitie: may finde them wanting in many poynts, touching the differences between your Church, and vsus that separate frō the same; and insufficient in the poynts that are handled to perswade any wise hart to returne vntounto you. You ouerpasse 1 the hierarchie of your spirituall Lords the prelates with their vnderunder officers which reign ouer you; 1 and the forme of Gods worship by your Leitourgie or seruice booke set vp and vsed in all your parishes. These are two mayn exceptions that we make against you, though you dissemble them in this your writing, and insist vponupon other two, 1 the people, and 2 inferior ministerie (as I conceiue you;) as if these onelyonly were the poynts of difference between vsus and you. Which whether you hauehave done of ignorance, or of fraud rather, to deceiue your reader; I leaue it vponupon your conscience to consider of.

Againe, the two things that you take vponupon you to handle, you for down in these termes, the godly Ministers and people of the Church of England; whereas our separation is from your Church in generall. wherein many vngodly ministers and people are to be found, standing in commixture, or confusion rather, as one body with those which are estemed more godly and religeous: and therefore you deale not syncerely, to make our separation to seem but from apart and those the godly.

Agayn, whereas there is a scisme in your Church, by two contrary factions at warr with your selues, Conformitans and Puritans, (as you stile one another.) you deale not plainely, to tell vsus whither party you meane to defend, but lead your reader into clowdes and m…st, speaking of godly mi…isters and people; not naming who or where they are. That tho…gh one may gue…se whome you mean, yet you write so gener…lly & covertly that if danger or in conuenience come by any thing you ha…e sayd, yo… may s…if… it of to eyther side for your best aduantage.

A … you deny not from the corruptions of the Ch…rch wh…rein … liue; yet … not what those corruptions are, which behooued you to ha…e done, if you woul… hauehave effe…ted o…r ret…rne vntounto you. For we are uerily perswaded, that they are nothing b…t your corru…t…ons … we hauehave separated fro…; and therefore cannot reioyne our selues vntounto you till they be remoued. And seeing you may minde some things to be corru…tions in your Ch…rch, and we othersome: it cannot be we should well accord, till particulars be related; which therefore (if you write agayn,) we pray you in your next to set downe

Yet for the present, it is well that the truth hath wrung out such a testimony from yovr own mouth and pen; whiles you grant and deny not such a separation in generall, as you mention: to the branches whereof if you will stand, and abide also by wh…ch you hauehave heretofore wr…tten; I doubt not but the discreet reader will see, your bat ell is …ot so much against vsus as against your selues; & the sword which you hauehave dra… … slay svch as be vpright of way, doth enter into the verie hart of your own Church; & the b…wes which you hauehave bent at us, are broken.

For …e forsake your Church for this mayn corruption, that all, sorts of profane and wicked men hauehave been and are, both they and their seed, receiued into and nourished with…n the b…some of your Church contrary to the first couenant of our redemption, wherein God with his owne mouth proclaymed & perpetvall emnity and warr against the Serpent and his seed, which the women and her seed should wage; though with the brusing of the heel thereof. Gen. 3. Contrary also to the example of all Gods Churches since the world begann, who alwayes were seperated from the vngodly, as the scriptures shew.

Now that this is a corruption a…ong you, your selues hauehave taught saying and complayning that in the Church aSermon on Rom. 12.6. pag 65 66.are swarmes of Atheists, jdolaters, Papists erroneus and hereticall s…ctaries, wit…hes, charmers, sorcerers, murtherers, theeues, adulter…rs, liers, &c Also that bPlayn deccla of eccles desc, pag, 72.among you the holy Saccraments are communicated with the Papists, the holy misteris of God profaned, the Gentiles enter into the Temple of God, the holy things are indifferently communicated with clean and vnclean, circumcised and vncircumcised. Againe that cDi…l of the stryfe of your▪ Church page. 99there be th…wsands which be men and women growne, which if a man ask them how th…y …halbe saued they cannot tell. As for wickedness in pride envy ha…red and all sinns that can be n…med almost. it deth ouerflow; and yet you are not ashamed to say are th…y not Christians? This Test…mony being tr…e, I hope your selues now wilbe ashamed to plead that such a people ar Chritians & to be communicated w…th; or deny that we may separate from them in th…ngs concerning God.

An other weighty cause of our separation is, that you hauehave a popish ministerie ouer this profane multitude; touching which, your selues also hauehave thus writen; a1 adm… …o the Par. in the preface.eyther we …vst hauehave a right ministerie of God, and a right gouerment of the Church according to the scriptures set vp, both which we lack; or els there can be no right relig…n &c. Now for the present ministery that is among you, as Parsons, Vicars. parish priests, Stipendaries, with the rest, you sayd, bin the sam admonitiō.that c…me from the pope, as out of the Troian horses belly, to the destr…ction of Gods kingdome.

An other cause why we refuse communion with you, is for that you serue God not as himselfe commandeth, but after your own deuising, or by imitation rather of the Romane Antichrist: wh…ch your selues hauehave proclaymed though we should hold our peace; for of your seruice booke you say, it was c1 admon. pag. 16.culled and picked out of the Popish dunhil the portuis and masse …kfull of all abominations: & that in the order of your seruice, dibid. 14.ther i… …o edification but confusion. Now this seemeth vntounto vsus no small corruption, that yov should offer vntounto God that filth which you hauehave picked out of the Popes dunghil. May we not say vntounto you, with the prophet, eMal. 1 8Off…r such things vntounto your Prince; will he be content with you, or except your person, saith the Lord of hosts? You know that Christ hath said fPsa 16.4.their, offrings of blood I will not offer; and yet will you take your drinke offrings out of the gReu 17.…great wheres cup, which the holy Ghost saith is hverse. 4.full of abominations, and of the filthines of her fernication? What mor… loathsome thing could you hauehave fou…d vnderunder the sun?

Agayn we hauehave forsakē your Church because the ecclesiastical gouernment and gouernours, the Lords spirituall, are not according to the ordinance of that Lord who is i2 Cor. 3.17the Spirit, but after the institution of his enemy Antichrist. And that this is a fowle corruption, we have also learned from your selues, which say, k1. admon. page. 15.The gouerment now used by Archbishops and Rps. &c, is both Antichristian and diuilish. That it lDemonst. in the pref.is that which giueth leaue to a man, to be any thing sauing, a sound Christian. Item that mT…ble of Artic, by diuin. Reader in Cam.that Vgly and ilfauoured hierarchie, or Church princelines, which instituted at the first by antichrists deuise did afterward villy serue the Pope of Rome to accomplish the …isterie of iniquity, and to destroy the Church of Christ and doth yet stil at this day serue him: must be abolished, that no remnāts, ne yet any shew therof remayn, if so be we will have Christ to reigne over us. Item that nibedem,that profane jurisdiction of Lordly Lord Archbishobs, Bps, Archdeacons, Chansellors, Officialls &c. as contrary to Gods gouerment, and wholy vnderpropt by the canon & Popish law, and with all ioyned with hypocrisie vaynglorie lordlinesse and tyranny. euen for these respects, (if there were no moe,) are to be vtterly rooted out of the Church; except possibly we mean by reconciliation to make Christ and Antichrist fr…inds: Thus hauehave we been taught by your selues, what corruptions there are in the Church, euen so many and so great, that you complayned thus, o1. admon. page. 2.as our lacks are, there can be no right religeon: and now you hauehave added vntounto all the former to teach vsus a separation from your corruptions and this not onelyonly in 1 iudgment, or 2 profession, but also in 3 practise and that we should not onelyonly reproue (as you heretofore hauehave done.) eueryevery part of sinne and error, but abstaine also from a…l corruptions of life and doctrine. And now we would pray you tell vsus, seeing corruption hath so seased vponupon, and possessed (by your owne confe…sion (both Preist and people, both worship, and ecclesiasticall gouer…ent; that as your lacks are, there can be no right religion: and seeing from all corruption we mus… separate: What then rema…neth for vsus to commun…cate with you in? For take away these corruptions out of your church, and you shall se… an vtter d…ssolution and abolishing of the same. Though now it spread it selfe like agreene bay tree: yet will it p…se away and be gone, and though one seek… …t, it cannot be found.

And is it not strange, that when your selues hauehave taught vsus how esteeme of your people, ministerie, divine service and church goverment; how also to walke and cary our selues, where such corrupt…ons ar, and we hauehave but departed from these corruptions, (for, any truth that is among you, we hauehave not forsaken:) that yet you will say we are seduced? Are not you then the seducers? We doe but practise that which you hauehave taught vsus, If you would hauehave vsus to returne vntounto you, first iustify by the word of God, that people, ministerie, and worship, that you hauehave condemned: refute your owne writings; and build againe the things which you hauehave destroyed. So when you hauehave made your selues trespassers, if we be not able by Gods word to proue that the things we refreyn from, are as bad as you hauehave writen; we will, by his grace,Exo. 14.5.9. come agayn vntounto you. Til then, let the discreet reader m…nde, whither you deal not with us as did the horsmen of Aegipt with the Isra… lite…; that after you hau… giuen us leav to depart, you thus persue vsus with your writings, to bring vsus back again to our ācient bondage. Again, whether you that pretend a separating in the church, & condemn our separating out of it though your Church be so throughly corru…t, as before is shewed and now call vsus seduced: deserue not rather to be called your selues The seducing brethren of the separation. But let vsus hear what it is you now say for your selues.

On our part, consider,

1. THis separation that we make, is grounded.

1. On Gods comm…ndements, Matt. 15.14. Rom. 16.17. Eph. 5.7.11. 2. Thes. 3.….14.15. Tim 6.5. Tit. 3.10. 1. Pet 4.4.

2. On the examples of all the prophets, Apostles, & Christ himself who separated in the Church & not out of th' Ch…. albeit in most corrupt estat, & yet communicated in th…t which was good; reprouing refusing & suffring for abst…yning from euill. Luk. 2.2…. 2 24 & 22.7.8.9. Mat. 22 3. &., 20, & 6, 1 2 5.16 & 11.16.17 18.9.20. &. 12 31.34 39. & 23 totum. And (note) those Churches were Antanosaicall as you say ours are Antichristian: yet for as much … th… … Christ, as …ur Church doth at least, Luk 1, 9 10, Iob. 1 2… …1. & 7 23.17 31 4… 42. & 10, 24. Rom. 3 2.3. & 9.4. w…th Gen 49.10 A.t. 2 39. th…y separated not from them.

Answer.

IF by the C…mm…ndements of God, by the examples of Christ, his … and A…stles, we may & m…st separate from all corruptions mayn te…ed in a tr…e Church: then ought we much more to separate from the… being maynteyned in a false; vnle…se; a false Church hauehave more priv…lige, t…en … cr…e And we consider that our separation is from the corr…ptiō: of … false Church;

2. The scr…ptures also are playn, that we must separate and forsake all false Churches, as well as corru…tions in a true, 2. Cor. 6 17. Come out from among them, and separate your s…lues saith the Lord, and touch no unclean th…ng, and I will receiue you. Reuelation. 18 4 Goe out of her my people, that ye receive not of her plagues. Hosea. 4.15. Come not ye vntounto Gilgal, neither give vp to Beth…ven; and many the like How rightly then doe you allege scriptures, as if they taught vsus separation in a Church onelyonly, and not out of it also; when it is false, and Idolatro…s?

3. Yo…r selues are a president to vsus of like practise, in separating not in but out of the Church of Rome: as yo… hauehave dealt with the mother, so doe we with the daughter; because like mother like daughter, according to the prouerb; Eze. 16.44.

4. You allege th… examples of all the proph…ts; yet shew you not any that …al…ed by your r…le, to se…arate in the Church and not out of it. Wee are sure they called the people out of the Church of Israel when it was idolatrous, a…d forbad them to come at their a…semblies. Hos, 2.2.3.4. & 4 15.17 Amos. 5.5. And how they co…ld themselues joyn with that Church from which they separated others is strange ūto us; especially cō si…erin… that Israel in that estate, is noted by the pro…het Azariah to be with…ut the true God, without P…ist to teach, …nd wiht…ut law; 1, Chro. 15.3 and may we thinke, he separated not from that Church; The Israelites th…n, sacr…iced to Divils, not to G…, Deut. 3… 17. Chron. 11.15 and wil yo… s…y the prophets separated not from them?

5. The like I Answer to the examples of Christ and his Apostles; who as t…ey absteyned from corruptio…s in the Ie…ish Church; so were they q…re sep…r…te… from all false Churches as the Sam…ritans and other like Mat 10 5. Ioh. 4.22. Act. 2.40. & 199 so the…r examples also, doe approue our practise.

6. W…ere as you would hauehave noted that those Churches (which Christ and h…s Ap…stles co…unicated with) were Antianosaicall as yours we …ay ar… …: I … t…e compar…son, For … the Iewish Church consist…d it all, … the same, Leuit, 20, 21.16.) of a people separated not onelyonly from heathens, but also from f…lse professors, heretiks, and idolaters; and were children of the prophets a…d couenant of God; Iohn. 4.9 Act 3.25. But your Church c…ns…steth …f an vnseparated people, children of Idolatrous Priests, & strangers from the couenant of God.

2. The Iewes then, had their sacrifices, seruices and solemne feasts, according to Moses Law; Mat 8.4. Mar, 14.12. Luk 9.…O. & 2.21, 24 and Chr…st himselfe j…st…f…ed the…r worship Ioh. 4.22. but your seruice, worship, and f…stival…, are after Antichrists law, translated out of his masse-booke.

3. The…r Priests were according to Moses inst…tution, of Aarons line Luk, 1, 5. with 1 Chro. 2.1, 10 their Scribes and Pharisees, sate in Moses cha…re; Mat 23.2, your Priests after the Popes institution your prelates fit in Antichrist chair. So they wer not so much against Moses; as you are aga…nst Christ: and that your Church reteyneth not the foundation Christ, shal through his grace anone be proued.

The 2. Consideration.

2. OVR Church hath the essentiall notes of a true church, able to beget a true sauing faith, to worke the fruites of the spirit, to make a man a true and perfect Christian, and last of all to saue him. To the which also Christ hath tied his gracious promise and blessing to the end of the world Rom, 10, 13, 17, Mat, 28 19.20. Act, 20.32. 2 Tim. 3.15.16. 1. Tim. 4.16 Iam. 1.21. Isa 55, 11.

Answer.

THese notes which you propound, 1 are not the essentiall notes of a true Church: a neyther (if they were,) are they ordinariely found in your Church

1. These are not essentiall notes, because; 1 One man may hauehave al this you speake of; and no one man, is or can be a Church, for that consisteth of a multitude or nūber of persons it is an assembly or convocation; joyntly together it is a body, and eueryevery one severally is but a member. 1. Cor 12, 20.27, That one man may hauehave all your es…entiall notes, may appear in Pavls exa…ple, who was able to b…get a true sauing faith, to worke the fruites of the spirit, and so the rest. 1. Cor. 4 …5. Gal. 3, 2 5.

2. An Angel may hauehave all the notes you mention; and no Angel is a Church. For example, the Angel Gabriel, who was sent to giuegive Daniel knowledge and understanding, and preached liuly of Christs death, & the benifits thereof. Dan. 9.21.22, &c

3. A wicked man may doe al that you speake of; but no wicked man is a true church. Iudas sent forth with the other Apostles to preach and work miracles, might bring others to saluation by his doctrine, though h…mselfe were a re…robate Mat. 10.5, 6. &c,

4. A true Church is the spowse & hous of Christ, & bringeth him forth a s…irituall seed. But, as God gaue the blessing of multi…lying childrē, onelyonly aGen 1 & 2to lawfull maried estate, yet often it commeth to passe, through h…s almighty power and goodne…e that harlots also are partakers of this ble…sing: and doe bring forth children: so the blessing of spirituall propagation, is peculiar to the true Church; yet God, which brought light out of darknes, causeth some children to be borne and brought vp vntounto him in false Churches For example; the Church of Rome, (the mother bReu 17.…of whordoms and abominations of the earth) hath doubtles, since she was wedded to Antichrist, borne and brought vp, by the generall true grounds of Chrstian rel…geon taught in her, many children of God, and heyres of saluation, This I s…ppose your selues will not deny, neyther yet w…ll you say, that Rome is Christ true Church. Your reason then is, as if Thamer should hauehave pleaded, I am able to bear c…ildren, to nourse and br…ng them vp to mans estate, &c. therefore I am my Father Iudah… true and lawfull wife, Gen. 38, 15.18. &c.

2. Now if these were essent…all notes, which you hauehave set down: yet helpe they you nothing, for I deny that they ar ordinarily found in your Ch…rch. For, though I doubt not but the doctrine of your Church hath saued many: yet that is Gods extraordinary blessing, not the ordinarie effects of your Church. This is the thin… you should hauehave proued, by comparing yo…r Church and min…sterie with the Lawes and promises in Gods word: which because you hauehave not done, but onelyonly quoted some scriptures generally; which men of all religions may doe likeweise;) I will by one or two of the script…res that your selfe here ci…e, shew how vnlike you are to a true Church and Ministery.

In Rom. 10.3.17. th' Apostle treateth of two things, 1 of calling on the name of the Lord, and 2 of faith, by hearing his word.

1. Whosoeuer call th upon the name of the Lord shalbe saued. This we are to understand according to Dauids exposition, whosoeuer calleth vponupon him in truth. Psa. 145 18. for God is a spirit, and must be worshiped in spirit and tr…th, Ioh. 4.24. but the worship and calling vponupon God which your Church vseth, in reading the prayers letanie collects, and other like things of your Leiturgie, translated out of AntiChr…st masse-booke, is carnall false Idolatrous; for such a manner of diuine service you hauehave no commandement or warrant in the scriptures. And this popish worship, begetteth not, but destroyeth faith and the true caling on God… name, and deceiueth mens sowles; for in vayn they worship me (sayth Christ,) teaching f…r doctrine the precepts of men; Mat. 15.9, and, they that wayt vp…n ly…ng van…ties, forsake their own mercy. Ionah, 1, 8

2. For the other poynt, Fa…th is by bearing (or by cone & th… same word is by figure of speech. … for hearing & r… porting. Rom 10.report) saith the Apostle; and proueth it by Isa. 53.1. Lord who hath beleeued our be…ring; that is, our report, Now no man can truly and faithfully report …nlesse God hath first spoken vntounto …m; ne…ther can a…y man fru…tfully hear other report or doctrine then the Lords; and so hearing is by the word of God, i… the mouthes of such as are sent, as he sheweth in the 15 verse. But you… Ministers are not truly and lawfully sent, (for they cannot shew eyther calling, ordination, or office, according to Chr…sts Testament;) therefore they cannot truly and lawfully preach his word and consequently, cannot beget (ordinarily) a true sauing faith.

The next scripture also Mat, 28 19, 20, playnly condemneth the state of your Church and minister…e: for,

1. There, is a lawfull calling, authorizing and sending; of minister… from him that hath all power in heauen and in earth, saying Goe therfore and teach: but such a sending your ministers hauehave not; for (as your selues hauehave a2 admon. to the Parl, f. 16.sayd,) they enter not in by Chrict but by a Popish and vnlawfull v…cation.

2. There, is a commandement to teach (or make disciples,) before they be receiued into th' Church by baptisme, for o… them that ar taught, such onelyonly as gladly receiue and beleeue the word, are to be baptised and admitted into the Church. as the practise of th' Apostle sheweth, Act. …, 40 41. but your Church was not thu… gathered or plāted by th' preaching of the Gospell: but by the commandement of the Magistrate: neither we… onelyonly the willing beleevers receiued, and others refused; but the whole profane multitudes wer admitted, or rather compelled into your church wher they and their seed are still ret…yned,

3. There, Gods Ministers are willed to teach Chr…stians so baptised to obserue all things whatsoeuer Christ commanded his Apostles verse. 20, & so they hauehave his gracious promise and blessing to the end of the world: but in your church, many things are obserued which Christ neuer comma…ded. Yea the Ministerie and go…erment appoynted in his Testamēt, are held and confirmed by practise among you, not to be perpetual, not necessary, nor fitting for your state: but an other pompous min…stery, and Lordly ecclesiastical gouerment; after the manner of the court of Rome. And as for power and liber…y to obserue Christ commandements, that is farr from your people, which al are in bondage to the Bishops and their courts; hauing not chr…stian freedom to censure sinne or sinners or practise the ordinances of the Gospel, as the Apostles did vnlesse Princes and Parliaments will permit or command them.

The like may be sayd, and returned vponupon you, from the other scriptures by you alleged; all which do… concerne the true church and ministerie, as your selues will not deny: and so will helpe you nothing vntill you proue your church and ministerie such, Boast not therefore of a true sauing faith and fruites of the spirit; when such bitter fruites and works of the flesh, doe reign among you: for faith without works … d…ad. Iam. 2.26.

Now then, if you will giuegive us leaue to consider the state of your Church aright, we would mind it thus. your Church hath the essentiall notes of a false Church. namly a confuse prophane worldly people, with an Antichr…stian Prelacie, and preisthood over them; able to beget ordinarily, but a vayne and dead faith, through want of the true ministery of the word in Christs ordinance, and by meanes of the false worship and false doct…nes that are in your Church; to worke the fruits of the flesh, as the idolatries and other sinful actions abounding in your Church doe shew; to make a man a very Antichristian, by resisting persecuting and blaspheming, the true way of Christ and practise of his Gospel; (which alas, too many doe,) and last of all to destroy him. if he repent not of his sinne… …nd find merciemercy with the Lord. which we desire you all may finde, for the saluation of your soules.

The 3. Consideration.

OVr Church and ministerie, are approved of and rejoyced for, of all the pure reformed Churches in the world. Our confession by them placed in the Harmonie of Confessions; gi…ing vsus the right hand of fellowship: as also by all the godly learned, and most sound and excellent fathers & lights of the chur…h, that euer liued in or meddle with our church; Bucer Mar…yr, Fagius, Alasio, Knoxe, who liued …n our church; Caluin, Beza, Bullinger, Gualt…r, …yml…r, Zanchius, Iunius, Rolocus &c. with others verie many, who hauehave giuen their testimony and approbation to our church and ministerie. Wherin if our errors were fundamentall, damnable and Antichristian, (as you terme them,) these churches and persons had vndoubtedly the spirit of discerning. and could not be deceiued all at once. 1. Cor. 11, 16. & 14.33. & ….15. &. 10.15 & 14.32, 37, 2. Thes. 1.4.

Answer.

THough you come against vsus with horsemen and charrets, yet we aPsa. 20.7will …emember the name of the Lord our God; by whose word alone all doctrines must be tried all persons must …udge and be iudged. It is incident to the best men and purest churches, to erre and be deceiued wherefore their sentences and approbations, must be examined by Gods word. If you say otherweise you teach corrupt and popish doctrine. With such weapons as these, hauehave the Papists long fo…ght against you, and where you can bring one, they can bring many to witnesse for them and their Romish superstitions. bBellarmin de notu ecclAntiquity, vniversality, and s…ch l…ke popular reasons. they seek to vphold their kingdome withall:

2. The word of God condemning your church and ministerie, (as we hauehave often proued; and our proofes ly vponupon you yet unanswered;) though all churches in the world, should a…proue of you, your case wer …o whit the better; for all men are vanity.Psa. 62.9.

3. The Iewes obie…ted as weighty a… arg…m…n… aga…t C…ri…t him selfe, whe… they sayd, d…th any of the rulers or of the Pharise…s … in him, but this people which know not the Law, are …ursed. I…h 7, 1….19.

4. If the reformed Church's ap…roue so well of you… Church and minister…e, they are n… onelyonly against vsus but against themselues: for theyr own C…rches consist of … separated and voluntary people, wheras yo…rs are co…fused and compelled; they condemn and hauehave re…e…ted the hierarchie and ministerie of Archbishop…, Lord bisho…s &c. Pr…ests, Parso…s, Vicars &c. which are yet among you and ha…e amon… them an… ther ministerie. Now how they can ap…roue of two sorts of Churches & m…n…ster…es, so contrary one to another, let them look to …t.

5. It seemeth to me, you are verie lau…sh in your praise, which now vaunt so of the a…probation and reioycing of al the …ure refor…ed Churches in the world: whereas heretofore you complayned that you had a1 Admon …o the Parl.all the b…st ref…rmed Ch…r…hes through…ut Ch…istendom ag…inst you. Agayn the Harmony that you mention, was set forth but by the French and Belgick churches; the things that they approue among you, are certayn general heads of religeon which a B…shop wrote in an Apologie of your Church: most of all which heads, we our selues also approue and reioyce for But the controuersies between you and vsus, touching the gathering and constituting of a Church; the manner of divine seru…ce; the form of Church government, and the like; are eyther not at all, or in very generall termes set down in that bo…ke: and so uerie slenderly, if ought at all, by them a…proued or reioyced for. To giuegive an instance or two; in the tenth section of that H…rmony, treating of the Ch…rch, your English confession is so shor… and in generall words, I doubt not b…t the Pope himselfe will subscribe vntounto it, letting him hauehave his own interpretation. In the 15 section of Eccl…sias…icall me…tings; you speake of prayer, in the tongue which all yo…r people vnderstand. Now because the Reformed churches approue of thi…, we must take it belike, that they approue of your Leiturgie and service book also, and al your publick worship, though it be not set downe f…r any to judge of. In the 16. section, of Holy day's, fasts &c. there yo… wri…e ag…inst purgatory; which being put into the Harmonie, i… ynough (as seemeth) to proue that other ch…rches approue of al your Pope holy-dayes and festiuals. The l…ke may be minded for other poynts, as in the 17. section for ceremonies & things indifferent; which being approued of and reioyced for by all the Reformed churches in the world; the Prelat…s w…l hauehave a shrewd hand against you that are called Puritans, for standing so much against the ceremonies of your Church, as you do· And for your min…stery, I marveil you say not that, it is approued of and r…i…yced for of the Pope also, for in the 11. section of that Harmony, you beleeue these orders and degrees of ministers in the Church, 1 Deacons. 2 Priests, and 3 Bishops; which orders, wehther the Reformed Churches appro…e of or no, I am sure the Counsel of Trent doth, and hath decreed, If any shall say, that in the Catholik Church there is not a Hirarchie instituted by diuine ordination, which consisteth of Bishops. and Priests and aDeccōs by interpr…tation ar ministers 1 … 3.5.ministers, let him be …ccurs…d. Concil. Trident. Sess 23. Can. 6. But now seeing not onelyonly the Fathers of the Counsel of Trent, but all reformed Churches in the world, (as you sayd, doe approue of and reioyce for this your ministerie; I hope the Bishops and hirarchie of your Church shall no more be preached & writen against by your inferior Priests, (as many a day they hauehave been,) as being Antichr…st…an.

Thus may you see what a weak foundation, you bring for your church and ministerie; and if we lyfted to fight against you with your own weapons; we could allege many things from the persons whome you cite; against your present church and ministery: but the word of God yeeldeth vsus armour ynough for this battell against you, as in due t…me through his grace shall be seen.

6. In the meā while, it shal not be amisse to put the reader in mind, how your selues heretofore hauehave iudged and written of your ministerie, which you say it is approued of and rei…yced for, of all the pure reformed churches in the world. your ministers being (as before is noted, Deacons, Priests and Bishops; Of the Deacenship you hauehave written, that bDefēnc of eclesiastical disci, p. 102.it is a meer humane institution, a degree to the Priesthood, and nothing like to the ordinance of God. Of Priests &c. that c1 admo to the Parlia.they cam from the Pope. as out of the Troian horses belly to the destruction of Gods kingdom. Of the Bishops &c. that ddefence of godly minis: against bridges. p. 12 3.you account them no natural members of the body of Christ church becauase they are of humane addition, not borne with her, nor grown up with her from the cradle, Agayne eSermon. on Rom. 12 p 34.that they be rather members of the strumpet of Rome, then of the spouse of the Lamb &c. And hauehave not you & the reformed Churches great cause now to reioyce for this ministery.

7. Moreouer consider you also, how we may allege, that now 10. yeares sithence, we have published our Confession of faith, and causes of our separation from your Church and ministery, to the learned Vniversities of the Reformed churches; with desire if in our faith or practise we erred, that they would shew it vsus: but to this day, we know not any that hauehave vndertaken so to doe: wherefore we also may suppose by their silence, that they approue our case or at least suspend their iudgments and condemne, vsus not.

8. Finally, it is written in one of the scriptures that you quote, the spirituall man iudgeth all things, but he himselfe is iudged of no man; 1 Cor. …, 15. Now every true Christian is a spirituall man Gal. 6. 1. 1 Pet 2.5. therfore he may judge and discerne by Gods word and spirit, faith from here sie, and the true church from the false; he may see with his eyes & liue by his own faith, and not depend vponupon other men, to liue & walk in sin till other churches condemne it. Let every man therfore retayn his liberty, and take heed how he iudgeth.

4. THe onelyonly wicked Pa…ists, Ath…ist, and most ungodly ones: are aduersaries to our godly ministers and people. The godly in all plac…s and times among vsus, by them alone an… ordinarily ha…e been conuerted vntounto Christ, and by them appro…ed, reu…renced, and obeyed alwayes in the Lord.

Answer.

1. IF the onelyonly wicked be adversaries, to your Godly ministers and people; it perteyneth not to us, who hate none of you, b…t wish well and pray for you al; euen for our persecutors we are aduersaries onelyonly to the sinns, & corruption… that are among you; & whiles we repro…e you for …inne, you should …ud…e that we louelove, and hate you not, as the aLeu. 19, 17.law te…cheth. We say therefore with the Apostle; are we become your enemies because we …ell …ou the truth? Gal. 4 16.

2, The Atheists and wicked one… that so hate your godly ministers and people; are the… not also m…bers of yo…r owne Church? So then your church is diuided against it selfe, and you are aduers one to another. And why tel you vsus of this, as a consideratiō to reduce us to your church, when we because such Atheists & wicked ar (cōtrary to Gods wil) suffred among you, doe separate from your Church?

3. Agayn, who be those godly ministers and people you mean? If such as are called Puritans; they hauehave (I suppose) moe adversaries the… freinds in your church; yea the publick state, alwes and canons of your church are against them, and all that know the truth of God, and the…r estate aright, hauehave just cause to blame them for the…r long halting and dissembling. If the Prelates be those godly min…sters, they hauehave in regard of their vnlawfull places and proceedings; many good people for their aduersaries, both within and without the land, and your selues also which suffer for s…paration in your church. By neither of these two contrary factions among you, ar men ordinarily conuerted unto Christ, both sorts setting your selues against the true way of Chr…st for gathering and gouernmen… of the Church, and worship of God; and so do hinder mens saluation, and deser…e to be not approued, but reproued in the name of the Lord.

The 5. Consideration.

5. GOD hath giuen witn… for the truth of our ministerie, by the vndoubted t…stimony of his gracious presence and approbation of the same; by his gifts of 1. sanctifi…ation. 2 knowledge. 3 spirit of discerning. 4. of vtterance. 5 of power and authority in teaching, 6 effectuall and ordinarie …alling and begetting to the fai…h of God, and bringing them from darkn…s to light, from the old man to the n…w, from the fl…sh vntounto the spirit; which ministery of ours; begat you …lso, if ever you were tru…y b…gotten in the spirit, & by Gods m…rcie hath begotten me, & other h…s vnworthy seruants.

Answer

1. THe Papists will say as much as all this and more too, (if words will ser…e… for the ministery of their church; they boast of the…r Friers, & Iesu…ts holines, knowledge, utterance & authority in teaching and their maruelous effects in conuerting to Christianity, the Indians & other …e…thens all ouer the world Yea what religeon, glorieth not in t…e sanctitie, gifts and effects of their ministerie? But Gods word must try all.

2. The ministerie of …our Church being Archbishops, L. Bishops, Deanes, Archdeacons, &c Priests, and Deacons, as is to be seen in the books statutes, and canons of your church: you br…ng not here any one word of God, or text of scriptures (which are his testimonies,) to witnes for the truth of your ministery: and this is indeed worthy to be considered of vsus & of al that shall read your Considerations

3. Your own brethren heretofore confessed and complayned to the Parliament, that you a1 admo 2.3.4.lack in England a right ministery of God; that the ministers are neith…r proued, elected, called, nor ordeyned, according to Gods word. This testimonie being true, how then doth God giuegive witnes for the truth of your ministery.

4. The witnes…es that you bring, if they be examined, wil say little ar nothing to this purpose. For,

1. The gift of santification, is a common note of Christianity, 1. Thes. 4.3. 1 Pet. 2.9. and therefore no speciall note of a ministery. This was Korahs argument when he would hauehave vsurped the Priesthood. All the congregation is holy eueryevery one of them: why may they not therefore be Pr…ests? Num. 16.3.10. But what saith the scripture? No man taketh th… honour to himselfe but he that is called of God, as Aaron was. Heb. 5.4.

2.3. The second and third 2 knowledge, 3 of the spirit of discerning, are also generall for the whole church, and not speciall for the ministerie; Rom. 15.14. Phil. 1.10. Yea some in the flock, may have a greater measure both of sanctification and of knowledge; then the Pastor or teacher or any Officer

It cannot be denied but Barsabas had knowledge as wel as Matthias; yet was he not therefore an Apostle, Act. 1.23.26. and they whose genealogies could not be found, had knowledge as wel as the other Pr…ests yet were they not ther…fore kept in the Priesthood, Ezra 2.62. Boast not you therefore of your knowledge, but shew vsus yo…r genealogies in the script…res There be a great many in your ministerie called dumb Priest… wh…ch are but bare readers, by whose meanes many people perish for want of knowledge: these testimon…es will be dumb for them; yet your …urch proclaymeth them to, be …rue ministers.

Your best minister…, of whose knowledge you boast, shew themselu… ignorant; (or worse,) in the … or … …lanting of a church wh…les; they will hauehave it (as their …ractise proueth) with commix…re of al form without separation: wherea… they cannot shew any true church since the beginning of the world, but was of a separa…ed people. Gen. 61.2. &12 1. L…v, 20.23.24. Ezr. 6 21. Act. 2, 40.41. &. 19:9. &c.

4. 5. The fowrth and fift, 4. vtt…rance, with 5 power & authority in teaching, are needfull in such as are ministers, but no nece…sarie proof of a true ministerie. For had not the false Apostles and Prophets. utterance and power; that preached w…th eloquence and wisdom of words d…sgracing the Apostles and Prophets of the Lord? 2 Cor. 10.10. &. 11.13.15. 1. Kin. 22.…4. Ier. 23.31. &. 28.1.2.10, 11. 2 Tim. 3.8.

Your ministers, many preach not at al many preach to mayntain the pompous prelacie, & laudable ceremonies of your Church: and they that pr…ach best, shew little power or authority For how many yeers hauehave they been preaching for Discipline, and against some corruption… of your church? yet nothing preuailed, but are further now at last then they were at the first. Who knoweth not that the prelates hauehave closed vp the mouthes of many Ministers, that the prophesie of Esaias is verified vponupon them; Isa. 56.10. and yet you boast of the…r utterance & au…hority in teaching.

But lamentable ministers are they …ll; and the best of them may be seen to be but briers; and to hauehave betrayed the authority of Christ; For when they took the Order of Priesthood as they call it, they solemnly promised euen before the Lord, and by his help, that aform & manner of consecrating Bishops, priests and Deacons.they would giuegive their faithfull diligence alwayes so to minister the doctrine and sacraments and the discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded, & as this realm hath receiued the same. according to the commandements of God so that they mought teach the people committed to their care and charge w…th all diligence to keep & obseru… the same. They promised also, bibidem,reuerently to obey their ordinary & other chief ministers is to whom the gouernmēt & charg is commited ou…r them, following with a glad mind and will their godly admoni…ion, and submitting thēselu… to their godly ju…gement. Yet your forward preachers (as they are esteemed,) doe not minister the doctrine sacraments and discipline of Christ as th… Lord hath commanded; but sue and wait for authority from the Mag…strate, to hauehave that wh…ch they count the true discipline of Christ erected in the…r parishes; which because the ciuill Magistrate doeth not they practise not the discipline, nor teach their people to keep and obserue the same yea they blame us for pract…sing Christs lawes withou… the Magistrates leaue, as if Christ wer not head of the church, & Prince of all the Kings of the earth. Again they administer not their doctrine sacraments and discipline, as this realm hath receiued, neither reuerently obey their Ordinaries, but resist, preach and write against the Bishops, their canons, rites and ceremonies. as much as they dare Thus halt they between two opinions, and practise neither the discipline of Chr…st nor of the prel…tes whiles; yet they would seem to pract…se both: being in this poynt like to the Sa…aritans, which whiles they would both a2 Kin. 1… 33.41.fear the Lord and serue the…r images also, they bver. 34.neither feared God, nor did after their or…inances, as the scriptures sayth. What then may we esteem of your ministers p…wer and authority in teaching

A…aine, c…nsider you if some Absolom, Adonia…, or other vsurper, should say; I hauehave 1 sanctification, 2 knowledge, 3 spirit of d…scerning, 4 of …ttera…ce, 5 of power and authoritie in iudging, 6 effectual & ordin…rie decidind & ending of controuersies &c therefore I am a lawfull King, Iudge or Magistrate; and God hath giuen witnesse by these vnd…bted test…monies, of the truth of my Magistracie: whether this …lea wo…ld serue him, or these testimonies approue his office? yet are these most …regnant proofs of your Min…stery.

6. The 6. and last testimonies is, their effectual & ordinary calling and b…getting to the faith of God, &c. This I hauehave before touched and shewed that ordinarily they beget not, but hinder the true faith: they keep the people in bl…ndenes and idolatrie, wh…ch is a worke of darknes and of cGal. 5, 19 20.the flesh; and if by their preaching any be brought to the true faith, I account it Gods extraordinary work, which I doubt not but is also a…ōg the Papist.

Againe, if this were granted them, I would know what office they would claym i… the church hereby; whether Apostleship of some other function. For in the Church of Corinth were many teachers and instructours yet begat they not their …eople to the fa…th, for the Apostle Paul challengeth to be their father only, and to ha…e begotten them in Christ through the gospel. 1. Cor, ….15. So there may be a lawfull Pastor or Teacher in a church, which neuer begat any of them to the faith, but onelyonly nourisheth and increaseth faith in them, that were begotten afore He is chosen to feed the flock. 1. Pet. 5.…. not to begett the same; the flock is a company of faithfull people, begotten before they hauehave a Past…r.

The begetting of faith, was first and chiefly by the Apostles and Evang…l…sts, that went about preach…ng the word, to them that had not heard it. Rom. 15, 20.21. It …s also by the ministers of churches, or prophets; (though not in office of ministerie,) wh…n vnbeleeuers come into their ass…mblies, 1 Cor. 14.24.25. It is also by all Christians priuately me… and women which preaching and witnessing the truth of the Gospell, reading talking, conferring of the script…res, doe conuert many unto God informe their children and families in the faith, and saue their soules, Act 8.4: &. 18 …6 1 Cor. 7.16. Eph. 6 4. Deut. 6.7.

S… the begetting of fa…th, is no certaine testimony of a true Min…sterie. Whereas therefore you conclude, that your Ministery begat us also, if ever we wer… tr…ly begotten in th… spirit: we may answer yov with Moses dNum 16.7…e take to mu…h vponupon you. y… sons of Levi. For know you not the wind bloweth where it li…teth, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot t…l whence it commeth or whether it goeth; and aIoh. 3.8.so is eueryevery man that is bor… of the spirit? It seemeth you count nothing preaching but that which is in the pulpit; nothing the word of God, but that which commeth out of your Ministers lips: but thanks be unto God that hath giuen vsus better to discerne the worke of his grace, and hath breathed vponupon vsus with his holie spirit;Reu. 7.1. whiles your Ministers stood lik the 4. Angels in the corners of the earth, holding the windes that they should not blow.

The 6 Consideration.

6. ALso our godly people hauehave all the marks and tokens of Gods people and elect, 1 which the scriptures set downe, 2 which the people in the tim… of Christ and his Apostles had, 3 which the professors of any church that is now in the world hauehave, 4 yea which your selues in your supposed perfection can boa… of: which is sealed vntounto them, 1 by the care, peace, and testimony of a good conscience in all things. 2 by suffring for sundrie parts both of righteousnes and … 3 by effectual comforts in such suf…rings, 4 ass…rance of faith, of hope, of remission of sinns; Gods dear louelove vntounto them; 5 by spiritual louelove and th… fruits thereof, 6. by the progresse and daylie growth in knowledge strength and godliness… &c.

Answer.

THAT many of your people are Gods elect, I vndoubtedly acknowledge: and I would to God such were the estate of you eueryevery one. Yet the constitution of your people in your church, is not a Communion of Saincts with which we may participate: but a confuse mixture of all sorts of men from which the godly must separate, as touching the worship of God.

In this your defence of them, you begin thus, Our Godly people, Bu… who ar they, can we tel? are not al your people godly? of the true church it is written, bIf…· 60.2…thy people shalbe al righteous if your people be not such? why make you not a separation from the vngodly, that will not be reclaymed; or why cast you them not out from among you? Thus ought you to doe by the Testament of Christ. 2. Cor. 6.14.17. 1. Cor. 5.13, If you doe it not, you profane Gods everlasting couenant.

I deny not but many hypocrites and reprobates wil creep into the true church; and much vngodlinesse will their break out, as in any assembli… in the world: but when it is seen, the sinner is presently to be reproued; and eyther must purge himselfe by repentance, or be excommunicate. Luk. 17.3. Mat, 18.15.16 17. Thus still the church continueth a com…union of Saincts, an vnleauened lump, a holy nation. 1 Cor. 1, &. 5. …. 1 Pet. 2 9.

Now for your works and t…k…ns; you say they have all 1 which the scriptures set …r…w. This is denied, and had you searched the scriptures▪ you might easilie hauehave seen it otherweise. For;

They are not a separate… people called out from the world: which is o…e pr…ncipal …ark, (as before I hauehave shewed,) vrged often in the scriptures. 1. King. 8 53. Isa. 52.1…. Ier, 15.19. Ioh. 17.14.16, Reu'18.4.

They are not the Lords free people, injoy…ng the libertie of the gospell: but in thraldom to strange Lord a…d lawes ecclesiastical. Contrary to L…uit. …5.42.55. 1 Cor. 7.…3. Ioh, 8, 32 36 Gal. 5 1.

They walk not in the truth of the gospel; but in many things ar corrupted with the remainders of po…ish s…perst…ons and idolatrie. Contrarie, to Psal. 26.3. 3 Ioh 3, 4. Rom. 6, 4. Ephe, 2, 10. 1 Cor, 10, 14.2…. Reu. 14, 9.12.

In these and many other particulars, your, people are contrary to the scriptures: so the pr…ncipall marks are wanting.

2 Next you compare th…m with the profess…rs of any church new in the world This is more bol…lie then wiselie spoken of you: shew if you can any reformed church, whose people are like yours, for …rr mixt…re of al sorts or in l…ke bondage to Antichr…stian …relates; or that use like superstions and idolatries in the worship of God, and dailie conversation. Remember also what some of your selues hauehave written heretofore; how that aEpistle before the De monst.Of all the nations that, hauehave rencunced that whore of Rome th…re ïs none in the world so farre out of square, as England, in reteyning the Popish hierarchie.

Your last comprison is with ourselues, whome you twite with supposed perfection: wherein you iniurie vsus, and yet help not your selues. For we suppose no perfection at al to be in vsus, eyther in knowledge or practise but are priuie to our selues of our infirmities;; and are sure we hauehave more also then bPsa. 19.12.we can discerne. Yet by the grace of God we are that we are and his grace is not in vaine in us, but as it hath brought vsus out of confusion bo…dage and Idolatrie, wh…rein your people still remayn, so we trust it will keep vsus in the truth of the gos…el, vntil we come to perfection in the kingdome of our father which is in heauen.

3. Next you speak of the sealing hereof vntounto your people, 1. By the care, peace and testi…ny of a good conscience in al things. what care can be seen in such confused carelesse walking of your people, commixt in one bodie, with the profane and serpents seed? what peace of conscience can there be, when men doe walke in open transgression of Gods law except such as whereby a man falsely bles…eth himselfe, saying I shal hauehave peace, although I walke according to the stubbornes of my own hart? Deut. 29, 19, There is no peace sayth the Lord, vntounto the wicked, Isa. 48.22. The waies of your people being wicked, their spirituall actions idolatrous it must needs be a blind or corrupt conscience that testifieth for thē in this estate.

2.3. Their 2 suffrings, and 3 effectual comforts in them; we will beleeu when we see them. For the present, we behold many of your peopl… for auoyding the crosse of Christ to subm…t to the Idolatries of your Church against their owne conscience and confe…sion, Very few that will suffer for any part of the truth but none at al that suffer for all, except such as forsake your confused assemblies. And if one or two in a shire, doe suffer a litle trouble, for not being buxome enough to the Prelates and their co…rts: what is that to j…stify the prophane multitudes and generall state of your people, which are readier to p…rsecute, then to suffer persec…tion for r…ghteousnes sake; as we hauehave had l…entable experience these m…ny yeires. W…refore, as their suffrings, so I think their Comforts are.

4, Their assur…nce of faith, of hope, of remission of sinns▪ and of Gods dear louelove unto th… ; may wel be boaste… of, but not soundlie felt. For where so many evil works doe abound and reigne, there is not true faith, and consequently no …re hope of remi…sion of sinns. Shew vsus therefore your faith by your works for we c…nnot see your harts. Bnt this we find in the scriptures, that yo…r for…fathers; when the Prophets re…ro…ed the… for their sinns, wo…ld vaunt as you do an… lean vpo… the L…rd a…d …ay, is not the Lord a…ong vsus; no euill can come up…n vsus. Mic. 3 11. This gl…rying of inward graces when outward transgre…sions doe prevaile: is meer delusion; common with all sorts and sects of religion. Even the h…rlot can boast of her peace offrings, Pro 7.14. and the Ph…risee thanketh God, that he is not as other men Luk. 18 11.

5 Their spritual louelove and fr…ites thereof, let them record th…t hauehave tasted of. It is wel known in the land, how many of Gods children hau… been empouerished, afflicted, tormented, by long and lamentable imprisonment vexation and spoile of goods, exile and other like meanes women left widowes, and children fatherlesse. How your godlie people hauehave visited comforted and releiued them▪ is not so wel knowne: it may be their charitie hath been in secret, and their left hand knoweth not what their right hath done. Wherefore you needed not hauehave offred this to our consideration, who are so ūaquainted with their louelove: let them selus rather cōsider how they shal answer whē they com to that howr mē tioned, Mat. 25.34 35.41, 42. &c. If you think they hauehave shewed louelove to their freinds and fauourites; that will procure them but little thank, euen sinners and publicans doe the same. Luk. 6.32.33. &c.

6, Their progresse and dayly growth in knowledge strength▪ & godlinesse, is ill seen in the estate they stand; there being at this day rather moe gross abominations vrged and observed in your publick assemblies, then hauehave been heretofore; and your ch…rch further from reformation now in the end, thē was at the begin…: that vnlesse you come to walke as your brethren of th… separation, and quite abandon the hope of reforming Babel; it wil shortly a…pear t…at all your labours be but s…iders webs; and your expectation vanitie and vexation of spirit

The 7. Consideration

Consider how God hath witnessed his louelove and approbation to our church, 1 by many victories and deliuerances from the enimies of Christ, 2 long continuance of the g…spel among us 3 strang iudgments on the enimies & persec…t…rs of the gospel. 4 the power and blessing in casting out Diuils. 5 prayer heard both in spirituall and earthly things, 6 by throwing down the Chur… of …, and building of the Church of God, by preaching, disputing and printing of many excellent works and volumes puplished of all sorts▪ which non… of you in anything hauehave ever yet atteyned, but onelyonly to threw down Gods church to raise …ssention among brethren, to rent the church, to distract the ignorant, to af…ord the weak▪ to hinder the cause of ref…rmation, to bear false witnesse against your brethren, and belye the holy ordinances of God.

Answer.

1. IF many victories and deliuerances, be an vndoubted testimony of Gods louelove and approbation of a people and their religeon; then … might wel hauehave boasted of his religion, who conquered seventy Kings and made thē gather bread vnderunder his table. Iudg. 1.7. Then Raisak hs reason was good, which he alledgeth against the Israel t…, f…r that he had conquered so many nations 2 Kin 18, 33·34, 35· If on the Turks at this day, may triumph ouer Christian religeon, becaus they hauehave warraye… a great part of the world‘ & takē from Christiās …any k…ngd…mes and …rouinces. Yea this verie reason did heathen men her…tof…re allege for d…fence of pagan …me, as that aSymma… in Epist. pr… sacr. patrūby it Rome had been kept agai…st …, and …ther …ne…ies: and, that bCaeciliu; Ar…eb lib 8therefore Rome had got the Emp…r… of all provinces and parts of the world; because, it worshiped and served. … …o…s that were in the w…rld, even the vnknown Gods also. I would wish you therefore to minde better ground for the truth of religion: and reme…ber what is written of the ancient Babylonians: after their victories; Th…n shall they take courage, & transgresse and doe wickedly imputing this their power vntounto their Gods▪ Habak. 1.11.

2. The long continuance of the g…spel among you, will make the more aga…nst you at the day of your accounts because you yeld no better obedience to the gospell as your present idolatrous estate sheweth. The gospell was among the men of the cGen 6. 1 Pe 3.19.20. 2 Pet, 2.5.old world; 120, yeares taught by Noah, a preacher of righteousnes; yet at last they perished by the stood for their disobedience: therefore though it hath been with you, about halfe that time, you also …ay perish, if you repent not. But (note) you take it for granted which is yet to be proued, that the gospel is among you: whereas the true peach…ng and practise thereof, you cannot endure. The sound of the Gos…el, by th… f…et of them that puplish peace, is this Thy God o Sion reignet… ; … Iudah keep thy solemne feasts perforrme thy vowes, for the wicked shall no more passe through thee (he is utterly out off. Isa. 52, 7, Nahum. 1.15. with Rom. 10 15. but Christ reigneth not yet among you by his own officers and law…s, (as hath been confe…sed by the best of your Ministers;) you keep the sol…mn feasts of Ant…christ, as your Christmas. C…n…elinas, H…llo…as Ea…r, and many the like; and the wicked at still in the midds of you, and w…lk on e…ery side; yea are exalted; which Da…id saith is a forme for the sons of m…n. Psal. 12.8.

3. The strange iudg…nts on …nimies and persecutors, are good warnings for you that you persecute your b…ethren no longer: we hauehave seen & minded some, vponupon no mean men …mong you; but wish not to see more we rather desire the conuersion of our enim…es.

4. The power and blessing in casting out Diuils, (though it may be questioned whether it be so or no in your Church,) is a thing that the Papists can boast of more then you. See their late supplication 37. reason of religion. Secondly, such Diuils as are said to dwel in Babylon, Reu. 18, 2. we playnly see you hauehave no power to cast out.

3 I would wish you to remember the words of Christ, Many will say to me in that day; Lord Lord, hauehave we not by thy name pro…hesied. and by thy name cast out diuils &c. and then will I professe to them I neuer knew you depart from me. ye that work iniquity. Mat. 7.22.23.

5 For your prayer heard both in spiritual and earthly things take heed you deceiu not your selues; many years hauehave you prayed & fasted for your discipline and pretended reformation; but how you hauehave bene heard, your present state sheweth. As for earthly things, if God giuegive them vntounto you, it is no sound proof that he approueth your praiers, much lesse your church. Some evil mens eyes aPsal. 73.7stand out for fatnes, they hauehave more then the hart desireth; but bIob 21.16their wealth is not in their hand, there for… the councel of the wicked be farr from me. God heard the praier of the King of the Philistims; Gen 20.4.6, he answered at the sacrifices of the sooth sayer Balaam; Num, 23, 3, 4, 15, 16. &c, shal we think God therefore allowed of their religion?

Againe, what people in the world is not perswaded and will not say that God heareth their praiers? Euē the hethens would boast thus of their false Gods; as Iulian protested that cCyril. cōtra Iul. lib. 7 s.Aes…ulapius had often healed him being sick: and dFast 5 aepe Iouē vids quum iam sua mittere vellet fulins … susti… isse …Ovid, that he had often seen Iupiters anger appeased with incense. &c. See you not then, that as the Saincts when they walk vpright before the Lord, hauehave assurance, and sound comfort thereby that be ePsa 66.18 19 116.1 2.1. Iob 5.1….heareth their praiers which they make according to his will: so hipocrites and ethniks hauehave also their false perswasions that their praiers are heard and vaine comforts according? Vaunt not therefore of your praiers being …eard, so long as you doe works which are to be abhorred but remember how it …s written, whoso…uer we ask, we receiue. (of God, because w… ke…p his …, and doe those things that are pleasing in his sight. Heb. 3.21.

6. Your throwing down the church of Antichrist, and building the church of God, by …reaching, &c. is according to the prouerb, aPro 25, 14Clowdes and wind without …. Let your brethren be witnesses; Of the first they say, b1 admon, to Parl, pag 33Antichrist raigneth amongst you: Of the latter, that cibid. p 4.as yet you are scarse come to … a church rightly reformed, and againe; that dSupplication to the Parl. p, 67.the wals of Sion he euen with the ground. Yet now you vaunt of throwing down Antich…s …hur…h and building Gods.

The Martyrs in Q Maries daies did indeed by their faithfull testimonies and patient suffrings, throw downe a great part of Antichrist church but sithence that time, what hauehave you doen, unlesse it hath been to repayr Iericho? For many grosse abuses which those Martyrs abhorred, are now st…fly mainteyned and practised in your church: but farther thē they went, hauehave you not stepped a foot & if some of your inferiour ministerie, hauehave spokē or writtē against a few foolish ceremonies; yet others of your chiefest ministers hauehave written as much for them, that what superstition your church pulleth downe with the left hand, it setteth vp with the right. The Prelates and their side hauehave written against you that seek reformation of Babel: and they both hauehave set against vsus that make separation from Babel: and yet you heer offer to our consideration, how you hauehave builded Sion. But the Lord wil visit both you & your building; then shall your reword be according to your works.

In the end you ease yo…r stomach against vsus, as they that throw downe Gods church, raise dissention, with many moe greeuous calumniations, which in your distempered affection you throw forth. More wisdome, and much more modestie had it been, if you had spared these reproches til you had convinced vsus of such things. But I see how your zele did carie you Ezekiah threw downe the idolatrous places in Israel; and reduced the people vntounto Gods true worship 2 Chro 31.1.2, &c. & 30.1.2 &c. Rabsaketh reproched him for this, as hauing done sacrilege against his own God. Isa. 36.7 We, by the word of our testimonie, throw downe your idolatrous high places, superstitions, ceremonies, false worship and m…nister…e you charge vsus w…th throwing downe God…s church, and lode vsus with many criminations. But it is your selues that trouble Israel; for doe we …eproue you for any good thing in doctrine or practise; or hauehave we left any truth that is among you; And if by our testimonie of the gospel, diss…ntion be raysed and your church rent, the ignorant distracted & weak offended: blame not vsus which testifie the truth, but your selues and such as re…ist it. Thinke you that Chr…st came to giuegive peace on the earth? he hath told you may but rather debate. For fiue in one howse shalbe, di…ided, three against two and two against three, father against sonn mother against d…ughter: and eLuk 12.51:52, Mat. 12.6ble…sed is he that shall not be offended in Christ When the Temple of God is opened in heauen, & the ark of his couen…t seen therein there are lightnings, and voyces, and thundrings, & earthquak…, and much bayl. Thinke it not strange then,Ren 11.19 if troubles doe follow follow the preaching of the Gospell; neither impute your own faults vntounto vsus: but submit your necks vntounto the yoke of Christ, least he *Psa 18.14.send out his arrowes and scatter you. and increase lightnings and destroy you. How your churches …state hat… been iustified by you, the reader may se by that you hauehave brought? and how far we are from your vnchristian calumnies shall further app…a…, by the help of God, in the answer to your other Considerations, that now next follow.

On your part, consider,

1, YOur Separation is very strange, vnboard of in any age of the Church, hauing no shew of warrant from Gods word, eyther by commandement or example.

Answer.

YOV would not call our separation strange, if your selfe were not a stranger from the common wealth of Israel. What age was there euer in the world, since light was separated from darknes; that heard not of separation from the false Ch…rch, the fast man Adam saw it. in the separation †Gen 4.16 & 6.2.of Seths poster…ty from Caines. Noah did the like ”Gen 9.25 26. &. cha, 11.in Sems posteritie from Chams. Abraham was *Gen 19called out of Chaldee: ‡Gen. 12.Lot out of Sodom: Israel, out of †Ex, 4 &cAegipt and ”Isa 48.20Babel; faithfull Iudah †Hos. ….15from rebellious Israel; Christs disciples, *Act 2 40 41. 2 Cor, 6 14.17.from faithle…e Iewes and Gentiles; and all the Lords people. †Reu. 18:4from your confused Babylon Yea God him selfe did first teach it when he made a separation between the w…mans seed and the Serpents, Gen. 3.…5. And yet you say, it hath no shew of warrant from Gods word Hereafter I supp…se you will say so no more, but wil see if you can proue your selues a tr…e Church, meet to be communicated withal: which when you doe, we by Gods grace will returne vntounto you.

The 2. Consideration.

2, THE poynts in difference between vsus and you did arise at first from persons, in whome God t…stified against your present causes, 1 Mr. Bolton hanged himselfe; … Mr. Brown revolted and came back from you; 3 Mr. Pe… ry, Barrow, and Greenwood were hanged; 4 Mr. I…hnsons and the rest banished: and (note) not by heathen and Ant…christian tyrants, as were true Martyrs of Christ, but by Christian Magistrat's prof…ssing and maynt…yning the Gospell of Christ. Besides your principal pillars of greatest reckning gifts and iudgement, hauehave returned from you unto the Church of England; as Harrison, Smith, Crud, Slad, and sundry other mi…sters and men of learning and account, who also liued holily, and died most comfortably in the Lord notwithstanding.

Answer.

IT is a wonder, if you be a teacher in your church that your salt is so vasauory. Shal mens persons now be brought against the case of Christ hauehave you no better learned him? Mought not a Can…anite or Philistian have reasoned thus against Israel? The wares against us and you did arise at first from persons in whome God testified against your present cause. Some were *Num 11.1brunt with fire, som ‡Num. 16 32 33.sunk into the earth aliue, some were destroyed by ”Num 21.6serpents. some by †Nū 25.9pestilence, some by the *Num. 14.45.enimies sword. some by the sword of ‡Ex 32, 27their own brethren. euen Moses and A…ron your …rincipall pillers of greatest reckning, dyed in the desert ”Nū 20.12for their sinne, and of †Ex 12, 37six hundred thousand men that came out of Aegipt to fight against vsus onelyonly *Num. 26 64, 65,two men are left aliue: and (note) these things have come vponupon you b… the hand of your God, whom you say, that he hath sent you to warr agaynst vsus Thus might a Pagā hauehave pleaded against Gods church then; with as much truth and more colour then you that are called a Christian, can do against vsus. But let us see your particulars.

1. M…, Bolton (yo… say) h…nged himselfe. And so did Iudas, one of the …irst and principall publisher… of Christs Gospell. Will you therefore call Christ…a…ity into question for it? Besides this Bolton. (one of the Elders of that separated Church whereof Mr. Fits. was Pastour in the beginning of Q. Eliz. reigne,) first revolted at Pauls Crosse, was reproued and excom…unicate for this by the church: and aft…r not hauing grace to returne or …epent, hanged himselfe. This is testified to me by one yet liuing among vsus, who tho… was member of that church & well acquainted with the affairs th…reof: and with this matter, and saw the man dead. Which being so Boltons Martyrdom is little for the credit of your cause and church where of he died a member

2 Mr. Brown reuolted &c. And to did ‡2 Tim. 4 10.Demas, and divers others in al ages, who loued this present world, more then God. But consider you here the Apostles words: what though some hauehave been vnfaithful, shal their vnfaithfulnes make the faith of God without effect? Farr be it. Rom. 3.3 4. besides, how wel Mr. Brown approueth of your church, though he liue in it; if you ask him I suppose, will tel yov.

3. Mr. Penry Barrow, and Greenwood were hanged. And so was Christ himselfe; and (note) not by heathen tyranns, (for Pilate ”Mat. 27.24.washed his hands of his blood;) but by Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees, professing and mainteyning the religion of God, as your church now dooth. And you that allege the hanging of these men to reproach our faith: it is probable that if you had then liued, you would hauehave reproached Christ him selfe; in the fellowship of whose afflictions and reproaches, we now rejoyce and are not ashamed. But fulfill you the measure of your forefathers.

4. Mr. Iohnsens and the rest …. And so was *Reu. 1.9.I…hn, the ‡Mar 3 17sonn of… thunder; and many other of Gods people many t…mes You and your church shall hauehave small cause to boast of your persecuting Christs witnesses, when the day of your … shall come.

Your captions note that these …unishments are ne…ly heathen tyran… but by profes…ed Christians▪ is indeed worthy to be noted and lamented: yet is it of no note or force, to disproue the truth of our cause. For who …ersecuted Chr…st and his Apostles more then the Israelites Gods peculiar and profes…ed people? who m…re then the ”Act 4.11.builders, refused him the chief corner-stone? whe…e were the Prophets killed, but †Luk …3.33in Ierusalem? Yea not onelyonly false Chr…st…ans and hypocrites, but Gods elect-seruants may so be ouertaken, as to persecute and kill the Lords people. Did not the *Gen. 37.Patriarche… sel Ioseph into Aegipt, when some of them would hauehave k…lled him? was not Sol…m…n a good King? Yet sought he ‡1 Kin. 11 30.31 37.40.to kill Ierob…am without cause; whom God had appoynted to be King after him. Was not Aja ”2 Chro. 14 23 &c.a godly King, and good reformer of the church (yet was he wroth with Hanani the Seer, and †2, Chro 16 7.10.put him into prison, onelyonly for speaking vntounto him the word of the Lord. What weight is there then in thi… your cavil, that our affliction are by Christian magistrates, therefore out cause is evill? Good princes may be ouer caried eyther by their own affections; or by the suggestions and prouocations of other men. And if you will not yet see your folly, mind this for your selues; that you which … called Puritans, are molested, imprisoned, persecuted: and (note) not by hethen and Antichristian tyranns; but by your own Christian magistrates and Bishops, professing and maynteyning the gospel of Christ. Ergo, eyther your cause or your argument is naught.

Your last poynt is partly false, and partly friuolous: for Mr. Harrison ▪ returned not vntounto your church of England; but died at Middleburgh in this faith that we professe. Mr. Smith, Crud, and some others, (which never were officers. much lesse pillars, in our Church,) did indeed forsake their first faith, and died soone after; with what comfort, themselues now know. But what if many more had forsaken vsus, yet the truth of the gospell which we professe, shall stand.

Christian religion was at a low ebb, when so many went back, that Iesus sayd to the twelue *Ioh. 6.66.67.will you also gee away? Yet Christianitie still flourisheth, and shall, so long as the moone endureth. And we with comfort doe behold; that though many bad ones hauehave gone away▪ yet God bringeth better in their place dayly.

The 3. Consideration

3. NOte your dissentions between 1 Brown and Harrison, 2 Brown … Barron, 3 Barro… and Francis Iohnson; 4 Francis and George Iohnson; 5 …r. Iohnson and Mr. Slade (that great scholler) 6 Chaph…n and others a…out Anahaptisme, nay none of your great Rab…ines but hauehave grosly disagr…d disagreed among themselues. It pi…ieth vsus to see your poor congregation, how lamentably it hath been rent with mutuall dissentions bitings, and deuouring of ech…ethers▪ wh…ch doubtlesse is no … …f the spirit of God. These are not lies but matters known; and they are matters horrible and strange.

Answer.

IF you were an Atheist or Pagan▪ as you professe to be a Christian: you mought in this ma…r repr…ch the church of God …uer since the world began; saying. Note the dissentions, …etween (a)Gen. 4.Kain and Abel; bGen. 9.Cham and Noah; cGe 27. etcEsaw and Iaacob, dGe 37 &c,Ioseph and the Patriarches, eExo, 32. Num, 20.Moses and the Isralites; fNum, 6Moses and the Leuites, gNum 12Moses and his …wn sister and brother, hIudg. 8.Gedeen and the men of Ephraim, of Succ…th. and of Pennel, iIudg, 9.Ab…melech and his brethren kIudg. 11I…phteh and his brethren, lIud. 20 &c.Beniamin and the other tri…es of Israel, m1 Sam 18 &c.Saul and Dauid, n2 Sam, 15 &c.Dauid and Absalom, o1 Kin 12 &c.the ten tribes and the two, from Ieroboams times and after, pAct 23.7 &c.the Pharisees & Sadducees in the Iewish Church, qLuk, 22.24.the Apostles of Christ, the diss…ntions r1 Cor 1 &… Galat. Philip. 3 Iohn. &c.in Corenth and the other Apostolike Chur…hes: These are not lies, but matters knowne, and r…corded in the scriptures: and they are matters horrible and s…rangem. So then, if your proposed C…nsideration be of weight to turne vsus from our present faith, because of the dissentions that hauehave been among vsus: the like consideration …nought turne vsus also (which God forbid) from all faith and religion, & make vsus as very Athe…sts, as a many of your church already are. And indeed wher unto leadeth this manner reasoning which you vse, b…t vntounto Atheism…? For if an Infidel …hould mind religion, mought he not be kept back, by consid…r…ng the dissentions, in fa…th, between Painims, Iewes, Mahometists, and Chr…stians, and a Iew or Turke be kept from Christianitie, because of the dis…entions between Protestants, Papists, Arians, Anabaptists and other sects many? Yea are not the Papists at this day hindred from true religeon, by sBellarm, de not, eccles… 10.noting (as you doe) the dissentions between Luther, Zwinglius, Calv…n &c? But it seemeth all these were farr from your cons…deration, or if you minded them yet were they but motes in your ey: they be our dissentions, ours onelyonly that trouble you It pittieth you to see our poor congregation. how lamentably it hath been rent &c. but you are hard-harted, and take no pity belike on your own Church. which you so highly commend vntounto us, though dissentions for discipline, (that I speake not of other matters) hauehave been so great, that you ha…e not onelie preached & printed on against an other now many a year and that in verie bitter and hostile manner, but also, persecu…ede imprisoned & fought the blood on of an other. Wel, howsoeuer we hauehave indeed just cause to lament, that by our dissentions, you and others hauehave taken occasion to blaspheme the truth of God: yet herin hauehave we comfort that such things must be amongst us (as the Holy Ghost saith,) t1 Cor. 11.18, 19.that they which are approuued may be known. And you, if by no meanes you will learne the estate of a Church here on earth, where it is in continuall warr with the Serpent and his seed; but stil you think these things horrible and strange: take heed you stumble not at the stone Christ to your distruction & hauehave your abiding in that house, which the strongman armed keepeth and the things that he possesseth are in peace. Luk 11.21.

The 4. Consideration.

4. YOur chiefest teachers cannot as yet determine, what the discipline i… that they would hauehave as what the difference is between a Pastor & a Doctour, whether Apostates ought to be admitted to office in the church &c.

Answer.

1, THere is no such dissention among vsus touching these matters as you would here insinuate: though if there wer, yet our imperfection and difference in iudgment sheweth that we are weak men; but no whit pre…ud…ceth the truth we professe.

2, The heathen Philosophers, in the Ni…oean Synod. obiected the like against Christians, that they agreed not in opinion among themselus S…zomen. lib. 1, cap. 18.

3. Your selfe heathen-like, may obiect against Paul and Barnaba… (twoo of the chiefest teachers of Christian religion,) one of the two things wherewith you here doe reproach vsus; because they not onelyonly could not determine whether Iohn Mark, (who had before departed frō them) should accompanie them in the work of the Gospel; but were so stirred, that they departed asunder one from the other, Act. 15.37.38.39.40.

4. You might much better blame your owne Church and chiefest teachers, that cannot as yet determine what the discipline is that they would hauehave; witnesse your long continued controuersies in print; wherein what adoe you make about discipline, all the world knoweth. If your selues would walke better, in the truth, peace and concord of the gospel, you might wi…h more equitie find fault with us: pul therefore the beam first out of your own eye.

The 5 Consideration.

5 THE Lord hath also testified against you, by giuing over very many people, 1 to Atheisme. 2 carnall life, 3 Papisme, 4 Anabaptisme, 5 Ari…nijme, 6 Familisme, which are not slanders but matters known to all that are acquainted with the course and state of your Church.

Answer.

ALl this being true, it sheweth the badnes of some men, not any badnes in the faith we professe. An infidel might hauehave obiected vntounto Israel. as you doe here: The Lord hath testified against you, by giuing ouer ouer very many of your people, to Carnall life, Sed…mitrie. Peorisme, Bautisme, Num. 2….1 3. Iudg 19 22. &. Psa. 106.14 28 36. Iudg. 2 13.& many other idolatries with strange Gods. The Papists may and doe obiect the like things to your selues at this day. much more iustly then you do to vsus. For when any such hauehave appeared among vsus, we presently cast them out if they repented not: whereas with you, such are stil reteyned in the bosome of your Church; yea such hereticks and vicious persons, as we hauehave excommunicate; you doe entertayn, as is knowen to all that ar acquainted with your estate. Wherefore the Lord hath testified for vsus, not against vsus, whiles by the light of his word, such hypocrites hauehave been discouered and avoyded: but you are condemned by your own doctrine, whiles such miscreants, and flagitioius persons are kept in your communion.

The 6. Consideration

6. THE churches and godly learned persons that euer heard of your separation, did not approue of it, which was the quarrel that Fr Iohnson had with Mr Iunius, and he sharply replyeth on him. Nay Mr Barrow plainely rayseth at Caluin and the Geneua church, and euen at al churches in Christendom. in his Discouerie: and counsels not with other reformed churches about their separation. but Answers (as Mr Iohnson doth) the word is neer vsus, we need not go ouer the seas to seek it as if the Spirit of the Prophets were not subiect to the Prophets, and himselfe (as the Pope) had infallible rule of in…erpretation of the scriptures in his brest.

Answer,

THE strength of this reason, is quelled before, in the answer to the third of your first Considerations: thither I refer the reader.

Further I answer, here that you teach such doctrine, as standeth not with Christian freedom or truth, whiles you would forbid vsus the profession and practise of the Gospel, til we hauehave consulted with, and be approued of other persons and Churches. For though I grant ther is a good use of aduising with other Churches, (if conueniently we can,) eyther when cases are difficult. or when in any respect it doe concerne them: yet that in all matters of religiō Christiās should be boūd thus to walke when the finne to them is euident, which to other Churches (not wel acquainted with their estate,) is not so perspicuous; this were to abridge Christian liberty, and to bring our consciences in bondage vntounto men; that though God forbid vsus *1 Cor 10.14 1 Ioh 4, 21.al communion with idolatrie, yet we may not separate vnlesse they approue it. It is contrary to the word of God, which teacheth vsus that Gods commandement is ‡Deu 30, 11 12.13.14. Rom. 10, 8not hid from his people neyther is far off, not alost in heauen, nor beyond the sea, but in our mouthes & …rts to doe it. But you to deceiue your reader, allege this, as if it were Mr. B…rrows or Mr Iohnsons reason, and not the doctrine of Moses and of the Apostl….

The col…r that you bring for your selfe, is that saying of the Apostle the spirites of the proph…ts are s…biect to the proph…ts 1 Cor. 14.32 which scripture considered by the words and circumstances of it, will in no we…se proue your purpose. F…r. first it may be q…estioned. whether the meanin… be, that the spirits of the prophets are subiect to other prophets or to th…mselves. For the Prophets among the gentiles, (such as the Corinthians naturally a1. Cor 12, 2were, (were s…bject unto, & caried and ruled by their spirits, and not their spirits subject to them: so that they could not choose but s…e…ke, (as bOra…, Sibil l. 2 in princip.S…bylla w…tne…seth of her selfe.) neither could they lin or cease speaking, when they would themselues yea and in holy scripture we see how cNum, 23 &. 24.Balaam prophesied good to Israel, and ble…sed, when he would hauehave cursed th…m▪ Saul also and his messengers, †1 Sam 19 20 …4.prophesied (as it were) by constreynt, being ouermastered by the spirit, soo as he could not co…teyn himselfe, bu… stripping off his clothes, prophe…e… all that day and all that night, when he had no pur…ose thus to doe. Now therfor, where as the Apostle here had ordeyned, that if any thing were e1 Cori …, 30re…eled to another that fare by the first prophet should hold his peace, because fver. 32.almight prophesie one by one: if any should allege, that they could not hould their peace, but must speak, so long as their spirit moued thē he telleth them, that gver. 34.the spirits of th… prophets are su…i…ct to the prophets; so intimating that they may, if they will giuegive others le…ue to speak shewing also a reason hereof because hRom 14.1God is not (the author) q of confusion but of peace. And if thus wee understand the Apostle, his words make nothing for that you say. VntoUnto this also may be added, that he speaketh this affirmat…uely, they are subject, and not by way of ordinance, let them be subject, as iver. 22els where he vseth: and as other things in this place are spoken; as kver. 30,Let the prophets speak; lver. 34.Let the first hold his peace; Let women be silent.

But be it granted (which I will not deny) that he meaneth their spirits wer subject to other Prophets; because when they had spoken mver. 29others were to iudge: yet those o…her, were the Prophets of …he same church and there present not in other churches. For Paul meant not, that the spirits of the Prophets in Corinth, were subiect to the prophets in Rome or Iudoea and so must send to them for approbation; but appoynteth like order in this, as was in nver, 30.all (other) the Churches of the Saincts. And if they were bound (as you would hauehave us) to send and submit to other churches, and others likeweise to them; then no Church hath no power in i… selfe, to apr…e of her prophets, or Ministers or of their doctrine, without the good lik…ng of others,. Which how farr it is from the Apostles mind I leaue it for the d…screet reader to judge: neither thinke I but your owne brethren will dista…t y…r so collecting from this place Howsoe…er they doe, it is verie like if you had liued in Ahabs dayes and should hauehave heard 1 Kin 22.6400 prophets at once prophesying good vntounto the King, and Micaiah onelyonly bver 17.18prophesying evill: you would with cuerse. 24.Zidkijah hauehave smittē him on the cheek, (as now you do vsus in reproch,) & told him that his spirit must be subiect to the prophets, especially they being so many, and he but alone.

But if it were further granted vntounto you, that we must be subiect to the prophets of other churches: yet I suppose you wil not deny but al prophets and churches must trie and iudge eueryevery thing by the d1 Pet 4.11 Act 18·11.word of God according to which if any man speak not, his iudgment is not to be regarded. And we, hauehave offred and doe still offer our doctrine and practise to the triall of al men by that word: if men eyther will not trie nor giuegive sentence at all, or doe judge amisse; we are not bound to wayt vponupon them; but must liue by eHab. 2.our own faith. The reformed churches hauehave been wr…ten to by vsus; (for we know and acknowledge them to be true churche… and our brethren in the Lord:) they giuegive vsus no Answer. Shall wee cōtinew still …n bōdage to Antichr…st, til they bid vsus com out? What scripture teacheth vsus so? If they or any, convince vsus of error or evill, and we yeeld not; le… vsus be esteemed accordingly: otherwise if we walke in the truth, and they will not approue it, be it vponupon them, as they shal answer bef…re the Lord.

Mr. Iunius, whom you mention to reply so sharply, neyther approueth your Church, nor condemneth our practice. no not though he were instantly vrged: the writings between him and us are extant to the world, let the reader judge what both sides hauehave sayd.

Your censure of Mr, Barrow, (or scoffing rather at him,) neyther hurteth him or vsus, nor helpeth you. His playn dealing in reprouing the corruptions of these times. you call rayling; it is marvel you say not also the prophets fIsa 1.4.10.21.23. &. 26.10.11. Mic, 3:9.10, 11 &….rayled on the people of Israel, when they vsed sharp rebukes; for I suppose you can hardly shew any hard speech that Mr. Barrow ther writeth; which the Prophets and Apostles hauehave not vsed before. But if he were overcaried with some seuere speeches in a good cause‘ neyther we not himselfe euer iustified that infirmitie, we know that we are frayl men let the sharpnesse therefore be his but the trueth (which he sharply teacheth) Gods:

And why carp you at the manner of his writing. and meddle not with the matter? That book with others hauehave discouered the idolatries of your church; which neyther by you nor any, hauehave euer yet been answered & refuted by the scriptures. For your self, let the reader iudge what you …aue sayd.

The 7 Consideration.

7. THe great and grosse disorder and partiallity in administring of your disciplin…, which George Iohnson sheweth cheerly; besides the wants of sunctimony and common duties of godlynes, which (he sayth) are to be found in farr greater measure in the c…mm…n profess…rs of the church of England: and saith further, that the Dutch churches take you for a most vnquiet, con…entious, and disorderly people.

Answer.

THis article you obiect vntounto vsus, vponupon one mans report that was for lying, and slandering, false accusation, and contention. himselfe cast out of our Church. By what rule or word of God, can you admit of the testimony of an excommunicate against a whole congregation? Reason also might teach you, that no man standing against a church to excommunication, will ever speake wel of that church, in the cause wherein he standeth.

But grant that this all were true which he reporteth what would you vrge vponupon it? that therefore Christianitie which we professe, is evill? so perhaps a Turk or Iew would doe with as much reason as you can conclude, that our separation from you is euill▪ Was there ever any truth, (think you,) that men did walke in it as they ought? or any Church in the world, wherein the discipline (as you call it) was administred as it should Iulian the Apostata, (that wrote so much against Christ,) reading the testimonies of Moses, the Prophets and Apostles, Deut. 9.7.22.24, Isa. 59 3, 4, 5, &c. Mic. 3.9.11. 1. Cor. 5.1.2, &. 11.21.22, &c. 3 Iohn. 9.10. had as good ground to blame the Israelites and Christians for their manners & discipline, and consequently to disswade them from their faith as you do vsus: yea he might allege faithfull and vndeniable witnesses: whereas you rely vponupon a slanderer.

Finally, what ayme you at, in all this, but to draw vsus back vntounto your church; and there it is like. we shall find discipline without disorder or partiallity to weet, in your Bishops courts, for there the discipline of your church is to be seen. Of which, we need say nothing; the voyce almost of al the land crieth out of their abominations. OnelyOnly we obserue how pregnant your perswasions are, to make vsus beleeu, that because there ar sinns in Sion, there be none in Babylon.

The 8 Consideration

8. GOD neuer witnessed for you, nor gaue testimony of his approuing your separation whether we consider your ministerie or people. For hardly can you shew any one person conuerted by your ministery from papistry or atheisme, or other open wickednes; as by Gods blessing multitudes hauehave been by ours: but onelyonly hauehave you seduced and wrought vponupon the tender consciences of such as by our ministery were first begotten vntounto Christ, But (which is specially to be obserued) from your distracted and devided congregations, multitudes hauehave fallen away, to eueryevery kind of impiety & herisie reigning in the world.

Answer.

IF God approue our seperation and our ministerie by his word, (as we are sur… he dooth) it is yeno…gh, though our ministery hauehave not conuerted any. Your reason is as if a C…inite should ha…e sayd vntounto N…ah God neuer witne…sed for thee nor gaue testimony of his approuing thy building of the Ark:Gen. …. for hardly canst thou shew any one person converted by thy precahing or Ark building, these 120. yeares.

Our ministery belongeth to our church; the assemblies whereof Papists, Ath…ists & such like wicked ones vse not to frequent: and how is it po…sible …ur ministery should conuert such as come not to heare it. If we w…ld obiect vntounto you, that few Turks and Saracens hauehave been converred by y…ur m…isterie: what would you answer? Yet where you say …e can har…ly sh…w my &c. we can (if need wer) shew you many that wer sometime prof…in & irreligious whiles they were of your church but cō m…ng and he…r…ng by Gods providence the doctrine of our church, hauehave been recl…ymed from their lewd life & doe walk holily in the faith with vsus. It is true in …eed that our cause hath wrought most vpō such as being somtimes vn…er yo…r ministery, had tender consciences & pliable to the truth others, of more corrupt consciences hauehave set against & blasphemed it▪ T…e …ideratio… of this in any wise mans iudgment wil rather lead vntounto, …hen …rom our cause; when the better sort (by your own confession) do come vntounto vsus; the worser and refuse remayn stil with you.

Your last poynt which you would hauehave specially to be obserued that multitudes ha…e fallen from vsus, to every kind of heresie and impietie, is indeed worthy to be obserued. For first the scripture is fulfilled, which sayth, m…ny sh…ll …leaue vntounto them faynedly, Dan. 11.34, Secondly being fallen if they had com to a more holy faith & better walking whē they were gone out from vsus, it might hauehave importe… ours to be evil: but now that they hauehave fallen to grosse heresie & impietie; it argueth Gods hand so be heavy vp on them because they continued not in the truth with vsus. And this the scripture confirmeth saying of such as †2 Thes, 2 10.11.12.receiue not the louelove of the truth, that they might be saued; that therefore God wil send them strong delusion, that they shall belee… lies; and of such as ‡1 Tim 4.1.2.depart from the faith; that they shall giuegive heed vntounto spirits of errors and doctrines of Diuils. It is also to be obserued that al such impious & hereticall persons as hauehave departed from vsus; are interteyned with you in your communion, (vnlesse themselues refuse to commun…cate with you;) your church is the receptacle of al s…ch Apostataes, & there they are suffred in herisie & impietie so as they w…l fr…q…ēt your assemblies. Better reasons therfore & more weithty c…nsid…rations▪ ha…e you need to allege; before you can perswade vsus to retur…e vntounto your church; for these hitherto propounded & examined are found too too l…ght. But it may be, better follow.

Counterpoison Considerations, Treatise 1

p. 1CONSIDERATIONS, Touching the poynts in difference, betvveen the godly … people of the Church of England; and the seduced brethren, of the separation.

Answer.

On our part, consider,

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The 2. Consideration.

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The 3. Consideration.

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The 5. Consideration.

p. 13Answer

The 6 Consideration.

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p. 19The 7. Consideration

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On your part, consider,

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The 2. Consideration.

p. 23Answer.

The 3. Consideration

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The 4. Consideration.

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The 5 Consideration.

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The 6. Consideration

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The 7 Consideration.

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The 8 Consideration

p. 31Answer.

CONSIDERATIONS, Touching the poynts in difference, betvveen the godly … people of the Church of England; and the seduced brethren, of the separation.

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The 7. Consideration

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