A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths, Part 2 (1 of 5)

A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths · Part 2 (1 of 5)

p. 1A sparing restraint of many lauishe vntruthes, which maister D. Harding would finde in the first article of the Bishop of Sarisburies Replie, by Edward Dering, student in diuinitie.

The B. of Sarisburie.

Mayster Harding maketh his first entrye with a Cauill.

Harding.

The .1. vntruth. It is no Cauill.

Dering.

NOW MAISTER HARDING hath so diligently examined this first article, & searched out, as he sayth, many, and great vntruthes, I must craue of thée which art the indifferent reader, to yéeld vntounto those thinges, whiche he can not blame: and to acknowledge it for true, which he can not controll. Of this shalt thou hauehave this great benefite, that when thou hast duely tryed all that is written, thou shalt cleaue in the ende to the truer part, and finde the saluation of thine owne soule. Read them with an indifferent, iudgement, and beleue as the spirite of God shall moue thée. If Mayster Harding say true, that in this first article there be .225. vntruthes, for my part I craue no parcialitie, saye boldly Mayster Iuell is not, as he pretendeth. But if this be false, and Mayster Hardings report be altogither slaunderous: then pray that he may soone repent, and confesse that godly, and learned Bishop, to be a faythfull labourer in the haruest of the Lord.

This first vntruth is that Mayster Harding in his aunswere beginneth not with a Cauill. The question is moued, p. 2whether within the space of .600. yeares after Christ, there were any priuate Masse. Mayster Harding maketh answere, that eueryevery Masse,Hard. diuis. 1. linea. 1. concerning the oblacion, and Communion is common, as likewise it is concerning the first institution, and will of the Priest,Linea. 6. Diuis. 3. But in consideration of place, tyme, audience, purpose, rytes, and other circumstances, it may be priuate. The vntruth lyeth, whether this answere be a cauill. Here we may aunswere two wayes. One after the common vse of speaking, an other after the nature of the worde. For our common speach it is certaine, we call that a cauill which is a drawing of any word knowne wel inough, into a straūge signification, as Mayster Harding vseth here his Masse. For who knoweth not that by priuate Masse, we doe meane that, which the priest practiseth alone at the altare? Nowe here to come in with this distinction, which (I wéene) neuer before was heard of, what is it else but to Cauill? Thus if we follow the common speach of men, this is no vntruth. If it lyke M. Harding to sticke vntounto the nature of the worde, let vsus examine it, and so sée whether this distinction, be a Cauill. Cauillatio, saith the Lawyer, est subdola ratio, quam conscij nobis mendacii proferimus, a Cauill is a subtile reasoning, which we our selues know is false, but yet we vse it. Nowe if this distinction be false, and that Mayster Harding know well ynough, then is it manifestly a cauill. The distinction is this. EueryEvery Masse by institution, will of the priest, oblation, & communion, is common, as touching persons, place, time, &c. it may be priuate. Nowe first whether the Masse by institution be common. Gabriel Biel sayth, as touching the substaunce, and first institution of the Masse,Biel. in can. in proemio. ca. 1. & 2. Biel cap. 3. & de consecrat. dist. 1. hoc quoque in glossa. there is nothing necessarie, but, in the thing, bread, and wine, in the priest, orders, good pronunciation, and a pure will. These being rightly had in all places, at all tymes, whether any be present or no, Missa rite celebratur, verum est sacrificium. The Masse is truely celebrate, there is a true sacrifice, therfore Masse by institution is p. 3not common. If Mayster Harding will replie, and say, that euen in such Masses, the sacrifice is effectuall to the whole Church, and so the Masse is common, that aunswere were very childish, and would bréed dissention in their own church. For both G. Biel denieth it in plaine wordes, and the thing it selfe altogither disagréeth. Biel sayth,Biel. ca. …. impeditur tamen fructus, eò quòd inordinatè, & indignè consecratur, & sumitur, though the Masse be a true Masse, yet there is no fruite of it, for as much as consecration, and communion are vnorderly, and vnworthily ministred. And for the thing it selfe, M. Harding knoweth the benefite of his Masse is so applied, if their be one to aunswere in the name of the people, but in these Masses it is not required,Biel. cap. 3. that anye one be present to make aunswere. It followeth then, that some Masse by no meanes is common, and so Ma. Hardings distinction is a cauill. I passe ouer for breuitie the beginning of this Masse, how it hath nothing of the Apostles. And before the sixt Synode of Constantinople no part of it was euer song in Latine, but this spoken of Biels authoritie, is proufe sufficient for thys present purpose.

The seconde thing that we hauehave to consider, is whether the Masse be common by will of the priest, or no. And thys question though it be hard to decyde, yet we may hauehave some probable coniecture, why the priest doth not alway meane to bestow his deuocion vponupon eueryevery man. We hauehave had a common prouerbe, rising vponupon the disagréement of the priest, and the lay man, that vponupon the displeasure conceyued, we woulde say one to another. Let him neuer be in thy Memento. If as the Philosopher sayth, the voyce of the people be the voyce of nature, then it is certaine, that sometyme the priestes wyll was, to abbridge the commoditie of this common Masse, and in his Memento to seclude some from this common benefite, so that euen in this poynt Mayster Hardings distinction is a méere cauill. Againe concerning this will of the priest, I p. 4might aske of Mayster Harding, what maner of Masses Pope Gregorie the .vii. said, y^t minded nothing more than sorcery, or the priest, that poysoned Pope Victor the thirde in the Chalice, or such priestes as I hauehave knowne some in Cambridge, that when they hauehave played all night at dice, in the morning being called away to Masse, hauehave sworne a great othe, that they would make hast, and come againe. A man had néede to knowe his condicions well, that would ground his Religion vponupon the priestes intent. Thus it appeareth, that neyther by institution, nor will of the priest, eueryevery Masse is cōmon. Concerning the oblation, and communion, how can they be commō, when in some of their Masses they hauehave none at al. First, their is no oblation without bread,in Can. Miss. catech. par. 2. Decretal de cele. Miss. ca 5 and wine, as the cannon of their owne Masse doth commaund, and as Biel doth witnesse. But in some of their Masses y^e vse of wine is forbidden, as appeareth by pope Gregorie, therefore in some of theyr Masses there is no oblation, or sacrifice. Then how can that bée common, which is not? Likewise it is manifest in the communion, how can that be made of the priest, without bread, and wine? Nowe is there no excuse remayning, why this distinction being false should not be a cauill, except Mayster Harding will say, him selfe did not knowe so muche. Yet if he doe, that will not serue. For the very nature of a cauill is onelyonly this,In reg. iur. lege …a est. vt ab euidenter veris res perducatur, that the matter may be brought to open falshood. And thus much is sayde, for the exact discussing of the word, so that it is plaine, both by the common speach, and by due tryall of the very worde, that Mayster Harding maketh his first entrye with a cauill.

The B. of Saris.

For where the matter is agreed vponupon, it is follie to picke a quarrell vppon the worde.

Harding.

The 2. vntruth. It is not agreed vponupon.

p. 5Dering.

Mayster Harding hath purposed to espie a great many of vntruthes, and fearing least they should not amount to their iust number, he thinketh good where oportunitie serueth, to make of one, eyther two, or mo. For where Mayster Iuell sayth, this distinction of Masse, is but a cauill, bicause the signification of Masse is knowne: Mayster Harding here noteth two vntruthes, one, it is no cauil, an other, it is not knowne. And what néedeth this doubling, if through vaine babling he did not think to blind the eies of the simple? Who euer would denie, both antecedent, and argument, both where they hang one of another. The noting of this vntruth, is a good proufe, that y^e other was a cauill. Whether the signification of Masse be knowne or no, small proufe will serue, let the worlde bée iudge. But whye is Mayster Harding so pleased with hys owne distinction, that vponupon it, he will fownd mo vntruthes? Forsooth he is a defender of antiquitie, and such distinctions are very auncient, more than 2000. yeare agone, Anaxagoras made such another, and stoode stifly in it,Cic. in acad. quest. that snow was not white, bicause it was vnderstand two wayes. One as it was water in substance, & so it was blacke, another as it was congealed, & so it was white, but such déepe fetches do not sinck in shallow wits. Let vsus be content with plaine vnderstanding, & so it shal be knowne, that priuate masse is w^t the priest alone, no man communicating with him, & snow shal be whyte stil.

The B. of Saris.

EueryEvery Masse sayth he, is common, and none priuate. If it be so, then hath he already concluded fully on our side.

Hardyng.

The .3. vntruth. I say not so, but vvith addicion.

Dering.

What addicions you make, onelye wrangling excepted, I sée not. If there be any vntruth in these wordes, the fault is p. 6your owne, take it vntounto your selfe. Mayster Iuell affirmeth nothing, but vpō your saying, that eueryevery Masse is publike. He inferreth if it be so, then you hauehave concluded on his side, you are not zealous for the truth, that would thus cary away your reader with trifling. Were your addicions neuer so good, and godly, yet Mayster Iuels wordes might stand without misreport of your saying. But bicause we be fallen into these addicions, marke good reader, what maner ones they bée. Euerye Masse,Reio…d. sayth he, is common concerning both oblation, & communion. If it be so, then his Masse it selfe must néedes be somwhat else, which Mayster Harding I am sure wil not graunt, and so vnawares for gréedinesse of an vntruth out of tyme, he quite ouerturneth his vntrue religion. For the whole substance of his Masse is nothing else but this oblation, and communion, these be the additions of his Masse, oblation, & communion,Hard. diui. 8. and all the other vsages are referred vntounto it, without all which these foure wordes hoc est corpus meum are a perfite Masse, as Mayster Harding himselfe, and also his owne doctours do confesse. In steede of many, it shall be sufficient to alleage one. Clingius a great doctour of Mayster Hardings writeth thus. Essentiale Missae sunt ve…ba Christi, hoc est corpus meū, hic est sanguis meus, &c. omnia alia quae circa Missam fiunt, vt orationes, ceremoniae, vestime…ta, gesta, crucis signaculum &c. non sunt Missa, sed sunt ad maiestatem & ornatum sacramenti ordinata, vt cum omni gloriositate hoc officium Missae celebretur. The substaunce of the Masse are these wordes of Christ, this is my body, this is my bloud. &c. all other things about the Masse, as prayers, ceremonies, vestments, gestures, crosses, and such other are not the Masse, but are ordeined for the maiestie and ornaments of the sacrament that the Masse might be sayde with all gloriositie. Now thys being true, as most of their doctours confesse it is true, what a monster will Mayster Harding make of his Masse, that teacheth the whole substance of it to be but accidēts, or as he calleth p. 7them addicions. And thus much, if it were true, that M. Harding spake not but with addicion. But nowe, what if he make no such addicion? what if he belie him selfe? what if his plaine wordes be these, euerye Masse is common? is it not then a shame for him to say the wordes, and then to get an vntruth▪ or to mocke his reader. Denie them againe? read the .112. vntruth, thou shalt sée these are his verye wordes: I say not that eueryevery priuate Masse is common, but that eueryevery Masse is common. If these be his plaine and expresse wordes without all addition, eueryevery Masse is common, what meaneth he here to denie them? if they be false, well may he proue himselfe a lyar, he can make no vntruth in Maister Iuels wordes.

The .B. of Saris.

If there be no priuate Masse at all, then was there no Priuate Masse in the primitiue Church, which was my first assertion.

Harding.

The 4. vntruth. I say not there is none at all. For there is priuate Masse, as priuate is taken in another sense.

Dering.

This vntruth standeth vponupon a distinction of priuate, and yet he telleth not how priuate is taken diuerse wayes. He hath forgotten his Logicke, and therefore gesseth out blind distinctions at aduentures. We talke of his masse, and how can that be priuate mo wayes than one. If none receiue but the priest, then that which should be the communion, is priuate to the priest alone. If he hauehave other companye, then is there no priuate Masse, that his Masse standeth in the oblation, and communion. What this distinction hath other but deceite of the people, a clowdie shew of a little misterie, and in déede a blind imagination, no man, I trow, but Maister Harding can sée. But a short aunswere will serue this vntruth, his owne Reioinder p. 8doth sufficiently confute it. He saith plaine no Masse is priuate, & that saying he yet auoucheth. But he denieth that he saith none is priuate at all,Reioind. fo. 4. and what a childish asseueration is this in a doctor of diuinity. I speake not this in debasing of M. Hardings learning, which I confesse is good, but so are Gods iudgements, where is the wise man, where is the scribe, when God doth confound their vnderstanding. If these propositions are one, there is no priuate Masse, and, there is no priuate Masse at all: whereto is this foreign this vaine repetition to make one vntruth both the thirde, and fourth, and yet the same without any reason? If he thinke that in these propositions, those words, at all, do make any difference, to much malice hath chaunged his vnderstanding. Well knoweth he, that in a negatiue proposition, the latter worde is alwayes vniuersall. And it is one to say, a man is no stone, and a man is no stone at all. Mayster Harding hath not yet forgot his Logick: in omni negante enunciatione attributum vniuersè capitur. Many suche vntruthes would soone shame the fault finder.

The .B. of Saris.

In the .22. Article of his booke, entreating of the accidents of bread, and wine.

Harding

The .5. vntruth. In that place I speake not hereof.

Dering.

This vntruth is soone decyded. Reade the place, if Maister Harding say true, then is this an vntruth. If he say otherwise, such impudency will wound his credite, euen among his friendes. Reade. Art. 22. diuis…. 3.

The .B. of Saris.

He sayth these matters were neuer taught in open audience, but priuatly disputed in the scholes, and set abroade by learned men in their priuate p. 9writing.

Harding.

The .6. vntruth. I say not so, but othervvise.

Dering.

There is nothing so plaine that impudencie and boldnesse will not affirme. But it is well, that the booke maye be the iudge. Reade. Art. 22. diuisi. 2.

The. B. of Saris.

As touching Masse, sometime he maketh it the sacrifice, sometyme the Communion.

Harding.

The .7. vntruth. I neuer sayde the Communion to be the Masse.

Dering.

Yet well worth Maister Stapleton, that thus beginneth his .7. slaunderous vntruth, the Masse & the Communion is al one. Alow this doctours iudgement, and I will soone proue Maister Harding a fonde man. For this Maister Stapleton wryteth against mayster Iuell, you do fondly to make anye contradiction betweene them. Here maister Harding sayth you say vntruly, that you doe not make a difference betwéene them. Belike whatsoeuer mayster Iuell say, they are at a poynt it shall be controlled. Yet more warenesse in such vnequall doing, would not be amisse. This great disagréement betwéene D. Harding, and mayster Stapleton, is a discharge for the B. of Sarisburie, that this is no vntruth. It is not good for them to meddle any more with this. They must take heede how they endaunger one anothers credit. If one of them vponupon good aduice, would forsake the others euill companie, he would disclose so muche conference, that not so much as M. Shacklocke could be blamed. But M. Saunders, & Harding p. 10should hauehave rebuke.

The. B. of Saris.

But if his Sacrifice be common, why doth he giuegive it these priuate titles, this for the liuing, this for the deade.

Harding.

The .8. vntruth. I giuegive it not these titles.

Dering.

If Maister Harding doth not giuegive it these titles, then can it not be denied, this is an vntruth. Yet what occasion maister Iuell had to report them, for his better discharge, I thinke it good to admonishe thée. In the Canon of maister Hardings Masse, when Iacke an apes is at all his gestures, the rubrick, that maketh all the sport, doth bid the priest, sometime to bestow his deuocion vponupon himselfe, somtime vponupon his parishioners, sometime vponupon his father, and mother, sometime vponupon those that are by, sometime vponupon all men, and at the eleuation of the Chalice, the priest sayth. Offero pro peccatis meis, pro salute viuorum, requie defunctorū. I offer this for mine owne sinnes, for the health of the liuing, for the rest of the deade, and for whom soeuer it liketh the priest. This béeing commaunded to all Massing priestes, who would not thinke, that maister Harding did obserue the same. But perhaps his great acquaintance with Amphilochius his Basill, he woulde faine say Masse after his owne fashion. Let him yet remember, nisi quid rubrica vetarit, he hassards his whole consecration, if he go any whit beyonde his commission. And here I trust maister Harding will make no difference betwéene M. Iuels saying, and the commaundement of his Rubricke. If he thinke these wordes are not plaine inough, Gabrel Biel will help out euen to the vtmost.In 4. sent. dist. 1…. q: 2. conc. 2 For thus he wryteth. Whatsoeuer our sauiour did merite vponupon the crosse, generally for p. 11all men. &c. Hoc sacrificio applicatur particulariter singulis ▪ by this sacrifice it is applied particularly to eueryevery one. And in another place, defining more exactly of this matter, he saith, Non potest ex aequo, & aliis, & primo, In supplem. dis. 45. q. 2. p.in eodē applicare gradu, he cannot equally apply his deuocion vponupon him, for whom he especially sayth Masse, and vponupon other. Lo, here we are expresly taught, that the sacrifice hath these priuate names, this for one, this for another. Yea, and here they moue a learned doubt. What if he that hauehave hyred the Masse, will not hauehave others partakers of it. Biel aunswereth, recurrendum est in hiis casibus ad iudiciū viri sapientis, in such cases we must hauehave recourse to some wise man. But what néede so déepe philosophie, to search out so plaine a matter? It is the vsage of their whole Church, and the doctrine of all their preachers, that the sacrifice may be applied to one or other, euen as the priest will. And where their Masse booke biddeth that the priest breake the host in thrée péeces,Durand. lib. 4 cap. 53. and holde two péeces in his left hand, and one in his right, the misterie of that deuice is this, that one péece, I trowe that in the right hande, be for them in heauen, an other for the liuing, the thirde for them in purgatory. I graunt this is but a foolishe deuice to fancie any sacrifice for those in heauen, yet so it is, & so they teach. Whether maister Harding say Masse as he is commaunded, or no, that no man, I trow knoweth but himselfe, his breach of order may be no good proufe of an vntruth.

The B. of Saris.

His second reason is this, it is a feast, therefore it is common, and so he salueth one errour with another.

Harding.

The .9. vntruth. It is no errour to say it is a feast.

Dering.

Maister Hardings worde, is no very good warrant, therefore p. 12it shall not be amisse to sée his reason. As a dinner may be a good dinner, sayth the Reioinder, though the gestes doe not come:Reioind. fo. 6. so this may be a feast, though it be not eaten. Note good people, this is an argument a simili, and that you should note it the better, Maister Harding hath caused it to be printed in the margine. This argument by lyke is verye plausible among them.In exam. 5. Philp. With such an other did mayster. Bonner once proue transubstanciation, but bicause whatsoeuer that wise man speaketh, is not streight way reason, I would gladly know of maister Harding this one thing, whether that be a good dinner, when neyther the gestes come, nor yet any good meate is prepared? All men knowe that such a banket they make of their Masse. There is nothing at all prepa…ed but for the priest alone. These weake vntruthes would hauehave well borne some stronger reason.

The B. of Saris.

What if his wil be to work sorcery, as it is reported of pope Hildibrand.

Harding.

The .10. vntruth. This is reported by no true vvryter.

The B. of Saris.

Or what if his will be to poyson some bodye, as Henrie the Emperor was poysoned in the Communion bread, Pope Victor in the Chalice.

Harding.

The .11. and .12. vntruth. They dyed othervvise.

Dering.

Well may this Reioinder of M. Hardings be called a booke of distinctions, & this great number of vntruthes .225. wranglings. For neyther without a distinction can he defende one iote of his double Religion, nor without wrangling argue p. 13one vntruth. It is reported, sayth mayster Iuell, of Pope Hildibrand, that he was a sorcerer, of Henry the Emperour, and Pope Victor, …hat they were poisoned in the Cōmunion. Here commeth our late vntruth maker of Louein M. D. Har. & where as nothing is affirmed, in his maner of multiplicatiō, he saith there are thrée vntruthes. The first of Hildibrand, the seconde of Henry, the thirde of Victor. Concerning the truth of these histories, pardon me good reader, though I dare say nothing. I can not mend that which M. Iuell hath written, Reade the defence of the Apologie. God for his mercy sake preserue that good Bishop, to the accomplishing of many other such labours. As touching our present purpose. No man I trow, but Maister Harding would hauehave noted any vntruth. Maister Iuell doth onelyonly say, these histories are reported, and so they be, as thou thy selfe must néedes confesse. What if they be false? yet it is the errour of the historie, no vntruth in mayster Iuell. What if no man defendeth Papistrie, but enimies of Gods worde, and true religion, yet we may say, that Papistrie is defended? We may say of Gargantua, that it is reported. Of the Legend of lyes that they are written. Of Basils priuate Masse, that Amphilochius telleth it, and yet is there no controuersie, but these are all lyes. Then what if it were not, y^e Pope Gregory were a coniurer, yet it is reported, yea, and thou thy selfe, good Christian reader, vponupon the sight of mayster Iuels booke, shall confesse it was so. But here I must require of thée a little to consider, the vnegall dealing of these english Louanists. Maister Harding in his aunswere speaking of Abdias, sayth that he sawe Christ in the flesh, that bicause it is altogither false, maister Iuell noteth it for one vntruth. Now commeth maister Stapleton, and for the returne of this vntruth, he sayth. If it be vntrue the fault is in the author that so affirmeth, and not in maister Harding.Stap. in the 7. vntruth, slaunderous. And yet maister Harding speaketh this affirmatiuely, as though he would auouch it. And shall lying Abdias be a sufficient p. 14ground for maister Harding, to say, this is true. And shall not so many good wryters, be a warrant for maister Iuell to say this is reported? Sure maister Hardings owne friends must nedes wish, that eyther this had béene vnquoted by himselfe, or that other vndefended by maister Stapleton.

The B. of Saris.

Or what if his will be to worke fayned miracles, as Lira sayth many are wrought in the open Church, to mocke the people.

Harding.

The .13. vntruth: Lira sayth it not. The .14. vntruth. He saith not to mocke the people.

Dering.

We had euen now thrée vntruthes in one sentence, if these were to many, in token of some moderation, here is one abated, and yet such successe hath this vntruthmaker in his collections, that euen these two can not stande with his honestie. This is maister Iuels allegation. Lira sayth, many miracles are wrought in the open Church, to mocke the people. Of these wordes thus doeth Maister Harding gather two vntruthes. The first, Lira sayth it not. The second, he sayth not to mocke the people. Here would I faine learne of Maister Harding in the first vntruth, Lira sayth it not, what he meaneth by the worde▪ it, if he doe meane the whole sentence, why doth he repeate this peece, to mocke the people, and so maketh an other vntruth, if he meane Lira hath all but this, why doth he note the residue for an vntruth. If he meane that Lira neuer sayth this, nor the other part, why doth he not marke mo vntruthes. The first, as it is one generall, Lira sayth it not. The other deducted perticularly out of eueryevery word, as, he saith not there are many. He sayth not there are many miracles, he saith not, they are wrought, he sayth not in the open church. p. 15He saith not to mock, & so this last he saith not to mock the people. This would well hauehave furthered M. H. number, to hauehave had .vii. in stéed of two, & sure the sentence hath no priuiledge, but that in eueryevery part, it may as wel be broken off, as in this one. But sith it is so, M. H. durst not note to many, let vsus examine these two, how good ground they stand on▪ Lira, saith Maister Harding, sayth it not. He sayth not to mocke the people. In these vntruthes my labour shall not be necessary. Lira himselfe must be mayster Iuels discharge. Reade then the place, thus he wryteth. Similiter sit in ecclesia maxima deceptio populi in miraculis, fictis a sacerdotibus, Lira in. 14. cap. Daniell.& eorū ad haerentibus propter lucrum temporale, likewise it happeneth in the church, that the people are very much deceyued through fayned miracles wrought by the priests, and their adherents for temporall gaine. Let Mayster Harding denie it, and denie it, and denie it againe, these are Liraes very wordes, let the booke be iudge. And what fault is there in mayster Iuell, who reporteth of Lira, that many fayned miracles are wrought in the open church, to deceyue the people? Forsooth, sayth M. Harding, Lira saith not that miracles are wrought. Yet Lira sayth, similiter fit, in like maner it is done. Further,Reioind. fo. 9. sayth M. Harding, he sayth not in the open Church, yet these are his wordes, in ecclesia, in the open Church, for what meane Gretian woulde denie, that foreign is the open congregation, and foreign to call assemblies. Last of all, maister Harding denieth that Lira saith to mocke the people. Yet thus Lira wryteth, maxima deceptio populi fit in miraculis. The people are very much deceyued with fayned miracles. But it foloweth in Lira, propter lucrum temporale, for temporall gaine, and therefore, sayth mayster Harding, it was not to mock the people. Nowe sure this is a very ill defence of hys friendes. Turpe lucrum res pessima, filthy gaine is the woorst of all thing. That it is, which hath layde to sale Masses, Dirges, Trentals, Dispensatiōs, Iubileis, Pardons, Indulgences, p. 16Purgatorie, and all the Popes pedlarie. This defence the truer it is, the more it verifieth Mayster Iuels saying. For he that hath pleasure in such gaine, would hauehave some pastime in the peoples errour. But I pray mayster Harding was all your miracles for gaine? When S. Andrevv saw dogs running after a hare,Sulpitius in vita Martini. lib. 3. and sodenly made the dogs féete all cleaue to the ground, what gaine had he by it? When our ladie came downe from heauen and sowed Thomas Beckets hearne breaches,In vitis sanctorum. that hir priest might hauehave leaue to say Masse againe, what got she by it? when Saint Thomas rose out of his kingly tumbe, and asked those, that watched them, what they made there, saying, non hic sum, ascendi enim, I am not here, but I am ascended,Abdias histo. apost. lib. 9. who gaue Thomas euer a grote for his labor? And that we maye vse your owne example. What helped it Christ, or all his Apostles to come downe from heauen and helpe Saint Basil to Masse, what was he the ritcher? or when all the Apostles came,Legend. aurea in ass. Mariae. some a thousande, some two thousande myle in lesse than a quarter of an houre, to sée our ladies assumption, what got they by theyr hastie iourney? And to come nerer home, among vsus, when Roodes were made sweat, or roll their eyes, or nod theyr heades, what gaine was their in it? When Christ and our ladie came downe to walke vponupon the aultare, when foure angels came downe to minister the Chalice vntounto the Abbot, when the Crucifixe did walke from the sepulchre to the aultare on Easter day in the morning. When twentie such other miracles were made, was it all for gaine? Ten thousand hauehave seene it, and neuer cost them pennie. Then we our selues are witnesses, that sometime blinde miracles were wrought onelyonly to deceyue the people. Why therefore doth Mayster Harding note this for vntrue, if the estimacion of his honestie, the regarde of his reader, the louelove of truth, or the feare of god, do moue him, why doth he blame this allegation of Lira? except as Thraso sayth, he was neuer any where, where all men did not louelove him, to M. Harding p. 17thinketh no man will reade his Reioinder,Ter in …. Act. 5. sc. e. vl.Acts 5 that will not beleue him. But what he thinketh, onelyonly God knoweth. Sure his doing hath very great suspicion of euill meaning.

The B. of Saris.

Pighius acknowledgeth errours in the priuate Masse.

Harding.

The .16. vntruth. He acknovvledgeth no errours in the priuate Masse.

Dering.

Nowe mayster Harding beginneth to hew and mangle Mayster Iuels wordes, and will not, as he is requested, lays them out plainely and so say against them what he can. But we must beare with greater faultes then this, or else burne the Reioinder. Therefore I will let his skipping alone, it is a good proufe, he could not confute it. Let vsus sée what is this vntruth. Pighius, sayth he, acknowledgeth no errours in the priuate Masse. Why then doth he not shew vsus Pighius hys words. He would, no doubt, if they had furthered his purpose, but it was good to conceale them. Some man wil perhaps beleue him on his worde. In déede Pighius doth not say, there be errours, vsing this worde, in the priuate Masse, but he speaketh plainly, that there are well nighe all maner abuses in it. These are his words, Quod si qui abusus in rem sacratissimā, & saluberrimam irrepserunt, In loc. cōmunibus de priuata Missa.velut irrepsisse plerosque non diffitemur▪ &c. What will Mayster Harding hauehave vsus thinke that plerique is a fewe, or certaine, or is this worde so taken in Louaine. Sure I am that in the Romaines time, it signified a great sort, very many, the most part. I néede not to vse example. EueryEvery childe of the Grammar schole doth knowe it. But I thinke maister Harding will not stand in this. He will denie that an abuse is an errour, that is a simple shift in déede, and the saluing of one errour with an other. Erro, is vnwittingly p. 18to be deceyued, to faile, to go amisse, and error, or erratum, a fault comming of ignoraunce, and therfore it is called quasi deceptio, in maner a deceyuing. And Tullie sayth, Etsi aliqua culpa tenemur erroris humani, a scelere tamèn liberati sumus. Although in some part as men we are deceiued, yet we were frée from any great offence, & in another place. Errauit, an potiùs insaniuit Apronius? Was Apronius deceyued? nay he was rather mad. Hereby it appeareth that an errour is but a small offence. Nowe if Pighius had sayde, there had béene errours in the priuate Masse, he had sayde but little to the disproufe of it. But he sayth there are almost all abuses in it, as no doubt it is a sincke of all abhominations. Abusus sayth he, that is euill, vnhonest, vncomely, wicked vsage, not of ignoraunce, but of purpose, and malice. So Donatus sayth, we vse by right, and dutie, we abuse with iniurie, which is a rooted vice. Vtimur cùm honore, abutimur cum iniuria. So Pighius graunting Plerosque abusus in his priuate Masse, meane what he will thus he sayth, that in hys Masse of malice, of set purpose, of a wicked desire, Gods people are iniuriously abused. This doe the very wordes enforce. Yet I doe not thinke that Albertus Pighius did so meane it, though his tong would not let his hart to lye, but as it were some iniury to racke the worde so farre, so is it great folly to denie that it may well be englished errours. Yet about this vntruth Mayster Harding maketh so great exclamations, as if he should declame for the victorie. Such Hercules buskins, he can applie to little leggs, and make so great vaunts, where himselfe is furthest deceyued.

The B. of Saris.

The name of Masse is seldome, or neuer found among the Catholyke fathers.

Hardyng.

The .17. vntruth. It is often found among the olde writers.

p. 19Dering.

Note good Reader how this man feareth not to note vntruthes so his number may grow. This word is seldom found …aith, Maister Iuell in the catholike fathers, it is found often, sayth he in olde writers, as though who soeuer were auncient, he were straite way Catholyke. Himselfe hath remoued in the 21. vntruth, certaine commentaries of Ierom. And I must certifie thée, there be other which notwithstanding their age, yet hauehave no more authoritie than olde Aesopes fables. Then notwithstanding Maister Hardings note of olde wryters, yet M. Iuels saying of the catholike fathers may be true. But I will not vrge Maister Hardings wordes, admit he ment no guile in the naming of olde wryters. How proueth he this vntruth. He bringeth in .ix. fathers and counsels in which this worde Masse is found, he sayth he could bring thrée mo, that is .xii. in all. The olde bookes which are written are almost infinite, so in .12000. bookes he can finde that he seeketh for, but .12. times, yet sayth he it is found often. Maister Iuell graunteth, it is found somtimes. Such vntruthes wil soone shame the controller. Now this worde Masse, or Missa, least it shoulde beguile thée, for that it is sometime in catholike fathers, I will brieflye declare vntounto thée what it is, and in what sence it is found. That which maister Harding calleth so ofte the Masse, as Basils Masse, Chrisostomes Masse, and Iames his Masse: in Gréeke it is foreign, which signifieth an open, or common function, and this signification it hath, as well in prophane writers, as in the scriptures foreign sayth Aristotle, he is occupied in the administration of the commō wealth,Polit. 5. and foreign to execute common offices. So foreign, the open worshippinges, and seruice of their Gods.Actes. 13.Acts 13 In like sort it is vsed in the scriptures, foreign as they were openlye preaching, and Saint Paule sayth,Rom. 15.Rom 15 foreign that I might be an open minister among p. 20the Gentiles, and this is proued by the Etimologie, or true explication of the word foreign quasi foreign, he that hath common businesse in hande. Hereby it appeareth that eyther M. Hardings Masse is not foreign, and so neyther Chrisostome, nor Iames, nor Basil, nor the other Gréeke authors euer sayde, or named Masse, or if they did, the verye worde doth quite ouerthrow the priuate Masse. As touching the Latine worde,Tert. cōt. mar. lib. 4. Cip. de bono par. & li. 3. ep. 14. Missa, we hauehave to learne it, as the fathers sayde, remissa, for remissio, so also they sayd, missa for missio, that is a sending away, when in the primatiue Church such as were Nouices in christian fayth, were sent away from the true beleuers, which was before the communion. And this appeareth by Saint Augustine, where he sayth. Ecce post sermonem fit missa cathecumenis, Serm. de tempore. 237.manebunt fideles, venietur ad locum orationis. Beholde after the sermon, the Nouices are dimissed, the faythfull shall abyde, and shall go vntounto the communion. For so maister Harding doth witnesse, that orationis in Saint Augustine doth signifie, and in déede in this place it is true. Here hauehave we thrée especiall things to note, the craft, and subtilitie of Maister Harding, and his friend Stapleton, who both, as it may be well thought, vponupon conference hauehave aledged the same places oute of doctors, and councels, where this worde (Mis…a) is found, and yet neyther hauehave mencioned this place of Augustine. If they knewe it not, they are not of that reading they pretend, if they knew it, it is to maliciously concealed. Secondarily there abode no more in the Church, but such as were communicants. So this late gazing at a popish Masse, was not then in vse. Thirdly they did all communicate, and then where was priuate Masse? So this gorgious shewe to bleare the simple peoples eyes, with the antiquitie of this worde Masse, is an inuincible argument, whereby pryuate Masse doth fall. Examine the places, that they themselues bring, thou canst not wreast any likelihoode of priuate Masse out of them. Yet this is moreouer to be noted that within p. 21.380. yeares after Christ, the worde was neuer named in any probable author, whereby it sufficiently appeareth, that it was neuer knowne in Christes time, nor in his Apostles after him. And thus much of this worde Masse.

The B. of Saris.

Clement was very lately found in the yle of Candie, by one Carolus Capellius a Venetian, written in Greeke, and in these Countreis neuer heard of, nor seene before.

Harding.

The .19. vntruth. It hath beene seene before.

Dering.

Here Maister Harding committeth thrée great faults, the one to charge maister Iuel with an vntruth, when he alleageth Peter Crabs authority, an other for misconstruing those wordes which are plaine, and common, the thirde for clipping of Maister Iuels wordes. For where he wryteth it was neuer séene in these coūtreis, Maister Harding quoteth his vntruth, it hath beene séene. But considering these poore shiftes wherevnto maister Harding is driuen, I will graunt these wordes to be maister Iuels, that it was neuer séene. Who knoweth not that neuer here signifieth of long time or seldom, if it had béene neuer séene, howe could it hauehave bene written? These grosse gatherings in so fine a wit, néedes must sauour of malice. It is the phrase of al lāguages, foreign. Saith Achilles, Iliad. 1. Homerus.they did neuer wast my fertile fieldes in Pthia, & yet not many yeres before were great iniuries done by the Troians, euē in Achilles countrey. So Agamemnon, Hom. Iliad. 1.foreign, O prophet of harmes, thou neuer yet toldest me pleasant things. Yet it were much for M. Harding to say Calchas pleased not Agamemnon, Iliad. 2.when he foretolde what tyme p. 22Troie should be destroyed. In lyke maner sayth Euripides, foreign. There was neuer good son of an euill father, yet was Ezechias good of wicked Ahaz. So in the common prouerbe foreign, more auncient than the worlde, we meane great continuance. We say the same in Latine.Cic. in verr. Nunquā tam palestricus praetor. There was neuer such a wrastling chiefe Iustice, meaning very seldome. And in our english, I neuer sawe such an other. But what we meane by it, that in déede was neuer doubted of, neyther is Maister Harding so simple, that he knoweth it not, but he had rather speake against his owne knowledge, then say nothing against Maister Iuell. This is ynough to any indifferent reader, to shewe that these vntruthes are but wranglings. But read the replie, and thou must néedes confesse it, were thou neuer so parciall. For Maister Iuell himselfe alleageth Leo, Gelasius, & Bessarion, which disalow this booke, and how could that be, if it had neuer bene séene. These hastie vntruthes hauehave yet little spéedy successe. Let vsus se the residue.

The. B. of Saris.

That they were written in Greeke, and not in Latine, that they could be layde vp in secrecie for the space of a thousande fiue hundred yeare, and more, and no man misse them.

Harding.

The .20. vntruth. They were knowne to the fathers.

Dering.

It was very wrangling to begin that vntruth, which common sense doth teach vsus had no falshoode in it, to persue it, that is great ouersight, but to make two of it, that is extréeme follie. They were kept in secrecie, sayth Maister Iuell, these 1500 yeares, and this is true, they were not openly knowne, as Maister Harding himselfe doth confesse, therefore they p. 23were secrete, and how could they hauehave béene secrete, except some had hid them, but why doth he not tell Maister Iuels tale hole? They were not knowne saith he in these countries. Maister Iuell himselfe, as is aforesaide, doth alleage Leo, and Gelasius, both Bishops of Rome, and Bessarion a cardinall, who all condemne the booke. Reade the Replie good reader, and thou shalt find it true, and how could they hauehave done it, if they had neuer séene the booke. This wrangling, this lying, thys wicked Reioinder, were it not that some ignorant man might beleue it, it should not hauehave one worde aunswered. But God deliuer vsus from such contagious poison.

The B. of Saris.

Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius sayth, certaine other bookes are abroade in the name of Clement, as the disputation of Peter, and Appion, which bookes were neuer in vse among the fathers, neyther containe they pure, and apostolicall doctrine.

Harding.

The .21. vntruth. Saint Ierom is falsified.

Dering.

It is reported of Brutus, that he was woont to say, he had spent his time euill that coulde denie nothing. M Harding perhaps to eschew this blame, hath prepared himself, when it pleaseth him, to denie any thing. The fault that Maister Iuell here findeth with Clement, is, that by the testimonie of Saint Ierom his bookes are not pure, and apostolicall. It is neuer a worde so saith Maister Harding. Saint Ierom is falsified. If Brutus were now aliue, peraduenture M. Harding might be commended. But bicause Saint Iohn hath bid vsus not to beléeue eueryevery spirite, eueryevery bold asseueration must not stand for true. Let vsus sée what Ierom himself sayth, and we shall iudge the better, whether Maister Iuels report be true or no. Thus p. 24he writeth. The olde writers hauehave quite reiected these other bookes ascribed to Clement. In ecclesiast. Ser. de Clem.And Eusebius in his third booke of the ecclesiasticall historie, doth reproue them. Now except Maister Harding will say, that the Apostles writing is condemned of these olde writers, and catholike fathers, or that Eusebius that good bishop of Caesarea reproueth their doctrine: Why will he not hauehave his Clement to be accounted not apostolicall, whom the old fathers reiect, and Eusebius reproueth. The substaunce of such vntruthes doe make the gatherer appeare either ignorant, or euill disposed.

Harding.

The .22. vntruth.

Dering.

Here Maister Harding maketh one vntruth ioyntly out of Saint Ierom, and Eusebius, where Maister Iuel saith, Saint Ierom by the report of Eusebius saith thus. &c. M. Harding for the better multiplying of vntruthes, saith first, Saint Ierom sayth it not, next, Eusebius sayth it not, thirdly they say it not. Had he dwelt among the Lacedemonians, for this great talke of vntruthes, & little reason in shewing them, he should surely hauehave bene accounted for a babler. If we graunt that his sayings are true, yet are these thre but one vntruth, and that not made by M. Iuell, but by S. Ierom. Thus we sée when it pleaseth him, he will not vnderstand, neither the common phrase of speaking, nor what is ment by plaine sayings. Again when it pleaseth him, he will vse more Logicke, then either is true, or honest. Such a Proteus he is in his owne vnderstanding.

The. B. of Saris.

Clement is condemned by Gelasius.

Harding.

The .23. vntruth. It is not condemned by him.

p. 25Dering.

Nowe Maister Harding is come to his olde compasse. He denieth, he careth not what. Nothing shall want a bold asseueration, if his simple authoritie may proue any vntruth, but let vsus not trust him, before we trie him, so we shall knowe the better what Gelasius sayth. His wordes are thus reported by Gracian. Dist. 15. sanct. romana.We hauehave thought good to note certain bookes which are come to knowledge, and ought to be auoyded of catholike people. First the councell holden at Ariminum, gathered by Constantine the Emperour, the sonne of Constantinus, by meane of Taurus lieutenant, from thenceforth, and for euer we iudge worthy to be condemned. Likewyse the Iournall of Peter the Apostle, bearing y^e name of Clement. Eight bookes are secrete, vnlawfull writings. Nowe consider with these wordes of Gelasius, this booke which for his Masse sake M. Harding doth so much defende. It goeth vnderunder the name of Clement, so doth that, which Gelasius condemneth. It contayneth .viii. bookes, and so doth that. They are accoūted Apocrypha, secret writings, and so are the other. Beside this Gelasius condemneth a booke called the Iournall of Peter, and this Clement himselfe sayth that S Peter willed him to write that booke, but yet vnderunder this title,Ad Iacob. Epist. 1. that it should be called the Iournall of Clement. And to conclude, those bookes condemned by Gelasius teach euill doctrine, and so doth this Clement. And shall Maister Hardings plaine wordes counteruaile so much likelihoode? Well may those erre, that néedes will be deceyued. But among the louers of truth, such vntruthes will be very odious.

The B. of Saris.

Abdias was conuersant with Christ.

Harding.

The .24. vntruth. I say not he was conuersant with Christ.

p. 26Dering.

Maister Harding may score vp his vntruthes after what sorte it pleaseth him, but any indifferent man must needes thinke that Maister Iuell doth not falsifie his wordes, when he layth them altogither euen as they are written. If in repetition of any part of them he doe mistake the meaning, such error deserueth verye little blame. But bicause M. Harding is so farre driuen, that if he should let slip euen the least aduauntage, he shoulde sustaine great losse of his whole cause: let vsus examine all that is reproued, and yéelde vntounto the vtmost, that may appéere faultie. I say not, saith he, that Abdias was conuersant with Christ. But he sayth he saw Christ in the flesh, and wrote diuers histories of the Apostles doings, at which he himselfe was present: of this to say he was conuersant with Christ, is scarce worth the fault finding. Yet maister Harding sayth stifly, he onelyonly sawe Christ in the flesh, he was not conuersaunt with him. By like he looked through the creuice with Eubulus, when Christ helped Saint Basil to Masse, and by that meanes Abdias could but sée him.

The B. of Saris.

Lazius sayth that Saint Luke borrowed whole histories worde for worde out of Abdias.

Harding

The .25. vntruth. Lazius sayth not so.

Dering.

Here is first a very graue note in a weighty matter, that M. Iuell nameth him Zazius, in steede of Lazius, as who say that eueryevery man must not néedes knowe Wolfangus Lazius, that hath séene Abdias. In praeface in Abdiam.False printing can not blame the author, where wrangling is not in place. Lazius sayth, eyther Saint p. 27Luke borrowed hole stories of Abdias, or Abdias of S. Luke. By this it appeareth Lazius is well content if you thinke S. Luke borrowed his writing of him. Nowe for the more contempt of so vaine and fonde a saying, Maister Iuell may well report his wordes absolutelye, and ought not for that to bée blamed with vntruth. Yet let vsus admit that Lazius saying were sufferable. I aske of M. Harding, how a disiunctiue proposition may be improued without affirming, or denying one certaine part. Besides this, it is no newes to Wolfangus Lazius to speake sometime at randome, when he should speake truth. He hath other wheres many absurdities, and some both slaunderous and odious to rehearse, ywis by good account, a man may easily finde more lyes in his bookes, than frier Furius can chalenge in Sleydaines commentaries, but let them go. For this present matter, Maister Iuell eyther in contempt of this vaine imagination, or for the more appearaunce of so great an absurdity, without any suspicion of vntrue dealing, may before all good men report these wordes, as he doth.

The. B. of Saris.

He maketh many shamelesse lyes, and sayth that he was present with Christ, and at most part of the Apostles doings.

Harding.

The .26. vntruth. He sayth not so.

Dering.

If we marke M. Iuels wordes well, we shall sufficientlye be forewarned. As touching these vntruthes, he maketh, saith Maister Iuell, many shamelesse lyes, and sayth he was present at the Apostles doings. Here maister Harding can challenge no vntruth, concerning Abdias shamelesse lying, but for his presence at the most of the Apostles doing, that saith he is nothing so. Let vsus take that which by silence M. Harding p. 28confesseth, and then if Abdias hauehave many shamelesse lyes, how can he further Maister Hardings Masse? or if he hauehave not, why is it not noted for an vntruth? By like he thought that by speaking nothing of Abdias lies, they might be forgotten, and by calling them to tryall, Abdias should be quite shamed. For my part I meane not to meddle with them, they are mo in number then in short time may be recited. OnelyOnly I aduertise thée to reade the booke, due tryall shall be surest iudge. As touching this present vntruth, whether he were cōuersant with the Apostles or no, it maketh no great matter, what skilleth it, what he was, or what time he liued? It is smale credit to Esopes fables, that the author liued in king Croesus dayes. Yet for maister Hardings pleasure, let vsus sée this vntruth. He sayth not, sayth maister Harding, that he was present at most of the Apostles doings. I aunswere that it is not necessary to be very scrupulous in reporting of Abdias his wordes, it is more then he deserueth, if we vouchsafe to recite his meaning. Thus much maister Harding and Abdias do say, that he was the Apostles scholer, that he was present at the death of Saint Andrew, and Saint Thomas, & at the doings of Simon, and Iude, which were all Apostles, and of all this is it much, if we say that he was present at the most of the Apostles doinges? Such is this Abdias. He hath deserued yll maister Hardings friendship. His credite is so little, that he can not further hys priuate Masse. His doings are so vnreasonable, that they can not be defended without shame. But the prouerbe is verified, like will to like. An ill cause hath most ground in vnsufficient witnesse, and an ill patrone is best content with vnable authoritie.

The. B. of Saris.

It may be gathered by Saint Augustine in sundrie places, that some part of this booke was written by certaine heritikes called the Manichees.

p. 29Harding.

The .27. vntruth. Saint Augustine hath no such thing of Abdias.

Dering.

This vntruth is little worth, and soone aunswered. It may be gathered sayth Maister Iuell. But saint Augustine speaketh not of Abdias saith M. Harding. It is true in déede saint Augustine doth not name him, for if he did, there neded thē no gathering. The thing were plaine. It is an easie thing to find many vntruthes, if we make our aduersary to say, what wée list. Whether Augustine meane of Abdias or no, that shall bée séene in y^e next vntruth. Here is nothing affirmed, but that he may séeme to meane him, that this may be gathered M. Har. denieth not. That Abdias is ment, it must appeare by the next vntruth. So either maister Harding maketh two vntruthes of one, as his maner is, or here speaketh nothing to the purpose (as he commonly vseth.)

The B. of Saris.

For he reporteth the fables of Saint Thomas, of Saint Mathew, of Saint Andrew, of the Lyon that slue the man that had striken Saint Thomas, of the dog that brought the same mans hande to the table of Maximilla, wife vntounto Egis, and other like tales, euen in such order, as they be set foorth by this Abdias.

Harding.

The .28. vntruth. Saint Augustine nameth not Mathevve.

The .29. vntruth. He nameth not Andrevv. The .30. vntru.

He speaketh not of Maximilla vvhichwhich Abdias ment.

Dering.

M. Hardings vntruthes amount not yet to his mind. Therfore he thinketh it not amisse to quote them a little faster, vpō p. 30which aduice, he maketh thrée in one periode, he might as wel hauehave sayde, S. Augustine mentioneth not these stories, and so hauehave made but one, saue that he loueth not such plaine dealing. But the matter is not great, as short an aunswere will serue for all, as if they had béene but one. Saint Augustine nameth not Mathevv, nor Andrevv. Marke good reader, this vntruth. Maister Iuell sayth, Saint Augustine telleth the tales of Mathevv, Contra faust. lib. 11. &. 22. cap. 97. Cont ad. le. & christo. ca. 20. co. Ad. ca. 16.and Andrevv, and so he doth, let the booke be the iudge. Maister Harding sayth, S. Augustine nameth them not, neyther doth maister Iuell saye he nameth them, take away this much wrangling, and here is no vntruth at all. But this we hauehave to note by the way, for the better credite of maister Hardings Abdias, that Saint Augustine condemneth those tales for lyes, which Abdias telleth for a certaine truth. Concerning y^e tale of Maximilla, wife to Aeges, which maister Harding saith is not reported in the same sort by Abdias, as it is by Saint Augustine, first we must knowe both Augustine and Abdias meane the same woman, as shall appeare in y^e .31. vntruth. Then Augustine speaketh of hir, as of a foolish & vaine tale. Abdias speaketh of hir doings, as of true, and weightie stories. Thus it appeareth though Saint Augustine doe not name the parties, yet he agréeth in the tales, and when this shall be knowne, the .27. vntruth shall be iustified. That it may be gathered, Saint Augustine meaneth of Abdias, & these thre latter vntruthes, which are but the proufe of Maister Iuels coniectture, shall appeare so good, that before the true christian reader, the quoting of them shall séeme but wrangling, and this new counterfeit Abdias shall be reiected, as a teller of dreames, and a lying wryter. And for our great comfort, god will bring to passe, that when it shall be knowne to the indifferent reader, that Papistrie can not stand without such shamelesse doctors, they shall begin to learne, that it is a shamelesse doctrine.

p. 31The B. of Saris.

Beholde what thinges they be, that be written of Maximilla wife to Aegis, that she being once christened, would no more yeelde dutie to hir husbande, but set Euclia hir mayde in hir owne place, and other like fables. All these, and such like tales thus disalowed by S. Augustine, are reported by Maister Hardings Abdias in great sooth.

Harding.

The .31. vntruth. These tales be not reported by Abdias.

Dering.

Now is maister Harding come, as he sayth, to a great, and impudent lye, and such a one, as by no meanes can be excused, let the booke, saith he, be iudge. I doe M. Iuell great wrong to write in his cause with so little diligence. But for this cause I doe it, which I trust I shall well performe, that the vnlearned should not be deceiued. For the learned, be they not of wil blinded, Maister Hardings bookes can not hurt them, he hath made so vnequal a match. Thou séest good reader for the iustifiing of this vntruth, whereat are made so great exclamations, one should read ouer all Abdias, which labor I lothed so, as if Amaras porrecto iugulo. &c. as Horace writeth, I should hauehave stretched …ut my necke, and listened after bitter histories, yet when there was no remedie, I tooke the booke, and in diuerse places read so much I think as amounteth to one whole leafe or more, and of that little reading as I can, I answere. There is named in Augustine one Maximilla, such one is named in Abdias, she was wife to Aegetes or Aegeas, so was Abdias his Maximilla, she had a mayd named Iphidamia or Iphidama, Aug. de fide cont. manich. cap. 38. & Abdias lib. 3.so sayth Abdias of his Maximilla, and hir handmayd Iphidamia sayth Saint Augustine, went to go heare S. Andrevv, and so did the handmayde in Abdias, and of all this I say as M. Harding sayth, let the bookes be iudge. Nowe reader I must p. 32craue thine indifferent iudgement, sée whether Augustine, and Abdias meane one Maximilla. If they do, remēber Augustine sayth, they be impudent lyes, and Abdias doth tell them in great sooth. But sayth Maister Harding, Abdias and August. do not write a like of Maximilla. Sure it is the more like Abdias is a lier. But what if we say, Abdias did write, whatsoeuer Saint Augustine hath? Barre maister Harding of his gesses, and he can not confute it. Iohn Faber, a great fabler of maister Hardings side sayth, that this Abdias, when he was founde was all reueled,In Praef. in Abdiam: and without any fashion, full of faultes, so that one could neyther read him by vnderstanding, nor vnderstand him by reading. Then no maruaile if some part of it be perished, and the booke be not come wholy vntounto our handes, though Abdias say not eueryevery whit that is in Augustine. When maister Harding can bring any péece of likelihoode, how this agréement may be betwéene them, and yet they meane not both one, then let this go for an vntruth. In the meane season consider, whereto this shamelesse, impudent, and notorious lye is fallen, whereof he hath made such tragedies, and what the other vntruthes be, when so great account was made of this. This is it, that I saide before, maister Harding was little beholding vntounto Abdias. First, he could not pleasure him for his small authoritie, now he hath shamed him with this vnshamefast defence.

The B. of Saris.

Saint Augustine seemeth in diuerse places to hauehave giuen his iudgement of this booke.

Hardyng.

The .32. vntruth. Saint Augustine meaneth not of Abdias.

Dering.

Maister Harding hath good lyking in his owne doing or p. 33this vntruth should not hauehave bene noted twise. For the matter, there is inough saide in the former vntruth, the argument of the thing doth witnesse of Augustines meaning.

The. B. of Saris.

The like iudgement hereof is giuen by Gelasius.

Harding.

The .33. vntruth. Gelasius meaneth not of Abdias.

Dering.

Maister Harding is so iealous ouer his Abdias, that in no case he will let him be spoken off. The booke be like is so full of lyes, that he is sure no man can speake any good of it. But how so euer he be affectioned, we must thinke of authors no otherwise, then we finde them. He is not yet Pope, and therefore may erre, his word is no good witnesse of an other mans meaning. Gelasius whome so euer he meaneth, certaine it is he may meane Abdias for the worthinesse of the booke. And whereas maister Harding for some proufe of his side, sayth that he cōdemneth certain actes of Martyrs which are thought to be written by infidels, Gelasius hath not one such worde.Reioin. fo. 42. But where as maister Harding saith further for the discharge of Abdias, that Gelasius speaketh of one Quiricus, and Iulita his mother, this is a mocking of his reader without all regard of honestie. First what kindred was betwéene these two, it skilleth not much, but Iulita may as well be his daughter as his mother, for any thing that Gelasius sayth. But let the kindred go, maister Hardings reason hangeth thus, Gelasius reiecting one hundreth bookes, among other nameth the passiō of Quiricus, ergo he reiecteth not Abdias, and this is all the reason on which he groundeth this vntruth, reade his Reioinder. Nowe way on the other side, what cause Maister Iuell hath to thinke Gelasius ment Abdias, and vponupon conference of p. 34eyther reason, this vntruth shall be very soone answered. The second booke that he condemneth is the actes of saint Andrew, Dist. 15 sanct. romana.Abdias doth write the actes of S. Andrew. The third is the actes of Philip, Abdias li. 3. Abdias li. 10. Abdias lib. 1. Abdias. li. 9.Abdias wryteth y^e actes of Philip. The fourth is the actes of Peter, Abdias wryteth the actes of Peter. The fift is the actes of Thomas, Abdias wryteth the actes of Thomas. Beside this, he reiecteth the doings of Maximilla, and Abdias speaketh of Maximilla. Now let the indifferent reader iudge, whether Gelasius meaneth of Addias, or whether maister Hardings worde, and misshapen argument may coū teruaile all these coniectures.

The B: of Saris.

Thus it may be supposed by Saint Augustine, and Gelasius, that this booke was written by heritikes.

Harding.

The 34. vntruth. A burthen of vntruthes.

Dering.

If this be a burthen of vntruthes, no doubt the substaunce of them is very little. For take away the .32. vntruth, that Augustine meaneth not Abdias, and the .33. vntruth, that Gelasius meaneth not Abdias, and except Eubulus come, that saw Christ helpe Basil to Masse, all this burthen of vntruthes is like to be vndone. As touching the vntruthes, there is inough saide already. Whether they ment of Abdias, it appeareth that maister Harding is to blind a iudge to gesse so boldly the contrary. Here I must put thée once againe in minde of the numbring of these vntruthes. First Saint Augustine speaketh not of Saint Mathew, the .2. nor of Saint Andrew, the .3. nor of Abdias his Maximilla, the .4. nor of Abdias, the .5. nor Gelasius speaketh of Abdias, the .6. nor they two speak of Abdias. Thus the whole being ioyned, is but one true proposition, p. 35yet out of it after his maner of cutting maister Harding hath carued .6. lies. And thus much of lying Abdias.

The B. of Saris.

Martial was so defaced in many places, that it could not be reade.

Harding.

The .35. vntruth. It could be read, else hovv coulde it be printed?

Dering.

By gesse. Why should not the printer hauehave as much liberty in printing this little olde booke, as maister Harding vseth for proufe of his whole religion?Morel. in fine libri. The Printer himselfe sayth prae nimia vetustate vix legi potuerunt, for estreame age they could scarce be read. Nowe where as maister Harding doth aske, how then could they be printed. I aske of him, how Abdias was printed. For of him his sorbonist Doctor wryteth, he could neyther be read, nor vnderstand.Faber in pre…. in Abdiam. An other might much better hauehave moued this doubt then maister Harding. He is not now to learne what gesses may doe. But howe soeuer he was printed, sure this vntruth was not worth noting.

The B. of Saris.

It is iudged by Iohn Colet, and other graue men, that Dionysius can not be that Areopagita, Saint Paules disciple, which is mencioned in the Actes.

Harding.

The .36. vntruth. It is not iudged so by Iohn Colet. The .37 vntruth. They are no graue men, that so iudge.

Dering.

These vntruthes can not be good, that are made so fast, nor p. 36yet so many as the maker would hauehave them, when one is told so many tymes. If this were vntrue that maister Iuell writeth, yet were it not two vntruthes, but one. But bicause there is no remedie, we will take them euen as they fall out. As touching the former of these two it néedeth no aunswere, Maister Harding doth not denie it, but that Iohn Colet hath both spoken it,Reioin. fo. 44. and preached it, then what skilleth it whether it be written, his preaching is a witnes of his opinion, though maister Harding say nay. For this other vntruth, that such other, as deny this Dionysius to be the true Areopagita, are no graue men: he is sure no graue man, that hath noted it. I may aunswere this with the wordes of Saint Paule, horum laus non ex hominibus, Rom. 2.29.Rom 2:29sed ex deo, these mens prayses are not of men, but of God. Maister Harding should not for his modesty sake hauehave noted it for an vntruth, to call the godly fathers of our age graue men. His belligods, Popes, Cardnals, Friers, Monkes, Priestes, & others of that ken…ll, hauehave not so much laboured in searching out the truth in fiue hundred yeares, as these other hauehave done in fiftie. But God hath giuen the increase, his name be praysed for euer.

As touching this Dionysius, whether we hauehave his workes, or no, it is a thing soone iudged. How vnlike is it, that the conuersion of Dionysius should be mencioned by Saint Luke in the actes of the Apostles,Actes. 17.Acts 17 yet he him selfe would not mencion it once in al his workes? or if this might be, yet what may we thinke of that, that in all his booke he doth neuer so much as once name Paule? May it yet be doubted, whether he be that Dionysius, which Paule conuerted? Besides this, S. Ierom making purposely a rehearsall of all ecclesiasticall wryters, speaketh not one worde of this Dionysius. Other auncient fathers doe neuer alleage him, his owne bookes are so straūge fansies of many secrete misteries, that sure it is, he is not the true Areopagita.

p. 37The. B. of Saris.

Saint Iames Liturgie hath an especiall prayer for them, that liue in Monasteries, and yet it was …erie rare, to hauehave Monasteries built in all Saint Iames time.

Harding.

The .38. vntruth. There is no mention of such Monasteries, as we commonly meane, when we speake of Monasteries.

Dering.

As be for Monasteries, as Monasteries are to speake of the things themselues as they are in déede, so to say of Monasteries as they be considered in this meaning of Monasteries, so Monasteries, and so forth, a man should go farre that shoulde follow Maister Hardings wrangling.

The B. of Saris.

Chrysostomes Liturgie prayeth for Pope Nicolas by these wordes. Nicolai & sanctiss. & vniuersalis Papae longa sint tēpora. We pray, God sende Nicolas that most holy, and vniuersall Pope, a long time to liue. But Pope Nicolas the first of that name, was the seconde Pope after dame Ione the woman Pope.

Harding.

The .39. vntruth. He prayth not for Pope Nicolas of Rome. The .40. vntr. There was no such woman pope.

Dering.

Nowe Maister Harding after he hath giuen so many offers, and maketh neuer a wound: he directeth his engines quite contrarie, and assayeth if that he can giuegive the Pope a blowe. Pope Nicolas sayth Chrysostome, that most sacred, and vniuersall Pope. That is no good proufe sayth Maister p. 38Harding that he meaneth the bishop of Rome. Here is a full subscription to the .4. article. The authorities alleaged for the Popes supremacie are quite ouerthrowne, to be called vniuersall bishop is no proufe of his supremacie. Had Maister Harding wel considered it, this vntruth had bene quoted some other where, but doubting that this be not aunswere good ynough, he letteth it go, and graunting it to be sayde of Pope Nicolas, Reioin. fo. 47.therevpon he asketh this question. If Chrysostome might not pray for Pope Nicolas, how is the death of Moyses described in the bookes of the lawe? There is no man, sayth he, so hardie to denie that Moyses wrote these bookes. Be not afrayd, good reader, of these big words, nor of M▪ Har. daring. All this is soone aunswered. Either Eleazar, or Iosue wro…e the .34. Chap. of Deuter. And they might well write of Moyses his death. Or if Moyses wrote it, he knew it by reuelation. For so he himselfe wryteth.Deut. 31.2.Deut 31:2 The lorde hath saide vntounto mée, thou shalt not go ouer this Iordane. Sure of a doctor of diuinitie, this was a very simple question. If he can shewe any such reuelation that Chrysostome ha… of Pope Nicolas, then let this be Chrysostomes Masse. The .40. vntruth is concerning pope Ione, who neuer did the sea of Rome more dishonesty, then she hath stoode maister Harding in good stéed. For both she helpeth out his Reioinder with vntruthes, and maketh a great péece of his confutation of the Apologie. But saith maister Harding there was no such woman Pope. What skilleth it to this present matter, whether there were such a Pope or no. A filthie Strumpet is good ynough for such a whoorish kingdome. If there were such a one, Pope Nicolas was seconde after hir. Whether there were or no, my profes are néedelesse, my lord of Sarisburie hath resolued vsus in that behalfe.

The B. of Saris.

Now it were much for me to say that Chrysostome prayed for men by name 700. yeares before they were borne.

p. 39Harding.

The .41. vntruth. I say not so.

Dering.

This is a proper vntruth. Now by lyke Mayster Harding is non plus.

The B. of Saris.

Thou seest Christian reader, what doctours here be brought, as maister Harding sayth, to ground thy fayth and saluation vponupon.

Harding

The .42. vntruth. I say not so.

Dering.

If Maister Iuell shoulde so misreport maister Hardings saying, as he himselfe for his vntruthes sake doth commonly vse, then had he good cause to crie out both of misconstruing, and corruptions, for he will say, and vnsay, and all with one breath, for to séeke aduauntage. Thus he sayth expressely, he hath brought these authorities for y^e confirmation of thy fayth. And againe he hath brought these authorities for the stay of all christian mens beléefe. Sée his booke, thou shalt sée the words.Diuis. 5. & 6. Thē why saith he not, y^t he bringeth these authorities to groūd thy saluation on? or how could he without blushing note this vntruth? There is no other difference in the sayings, saue where Maister Iuell reporteth it to ground thy faith, Maister Harding hath to stay, and confirme thy fayth. If here be any difference, alway wrangling excepted, let this be an vntruth. And yet were there any, Maister Harding speaketh plaine ynough in the confutation of the Apologie. Thus he saith there. Are not these trustie men,Apol. par. 5. cap. 3. diui. 10. to whome you maye commit the charge of your soules for your fayth, and saluation? These p. 40wordes I trow are plaine ynough to proue this no vntruth.

The. B. of Saris.

It is the very expresse order of the Communion.

Harding.

The .43. vntruth. It is not so.

Dering.

This vntruth maister Harding hath not in the text, but hath wrested it out of the margine, and bicause he thinketh that for the base matter it would be little regarded, to make vsus the more attentiue, he beginneth with this admiration. But what meaneth Maister Iuell.Reioind. fo. 54. &c. But to quite Maister Hardings wonder, I aske of him againe, what meaneth he thus abruptly to rush into maister Stapletons possessions? He hath taken vponupon him to returne those vntruthes, and whye doth maister Harding meddle,Diui. 5. the. 12. vntruth. where he hath no thank? There be already a great many past, which he hath not touched, and why doth he out of season thus meddle with this? If he thinke maister Stapleton hath returned it nothing cunningly, I doe easily graunt, that he is in déede a naughtie workeman, if he thinke by his labour it shall appeare more beautifull, I must néedes graunt his turning is much better, but yet the matter it selfe is neuer a whit the truer. And for as much as the thing must trie it selfe, let vsus somewhat better examine it. Maister Harding sayth in the .5. diuision of his first booke, that Ciril hath expounded the Masse vsed in Ierusalem. Maister Iuell noteth this for the .12. vntruth, saying that Ciril expounded the communion, and not the Masse. Maister Harding returneth this vntruth againe, saying it was the Masse, and not the Communion. I might with as great facility denie this again, and say it were the Communion, and not the Masse. But bycause my testimonie were in this not of weight, I am content p. 41to be furthered with the witnesse of maister Stapleton. Hée sayth plainely, that maister Harding brought not this for proufe of the question,In the 15. slaū derous vntru. and that it maketh nothing for priuate Masse. But here Maister Harding saith that it was a Masse. Therefore this vntruth gathered by maister Harding, is answered thus by maister Stapleton, that it is not so, and tyll they agrée better, a longer discourse of that place of Ciril is neyther profitable nor necessarie.

The B. of Saris.

What if all these doctors testifie against maister Hardings Masse.

Harding.

The .44. vntruth. They testifie not one vvorde against it.

Dering.

Maister Iuell alleageth, Iames his Liturgie, Abdias, Iustinus, Dionysius, Basil, Chrysostome, and Ignatius, reade the Replie. fol. ii. of all these, saith maister Harding, they be M. Iuels buts, and therefore he will skip them ouer, and not answere a worde, neither rime nor reason. What shamelesse demeanor is this in men, that professe to séeke the truth? if wée would doe the like, howe soone woulde this Reioinder be aunswered. It is an easie matter if this be ynough, M. Harding must séeke better stuffe, this will not serue. Although in déede it be true, that this Reioinder is all false, and vngodly stuffe, yet séeing christian people are so euill disposed, the falsehoode, of this stuffing must be in some part disclosed. Howe much then should this discredit maister Hardings religion, against so expresse authoritie to make so slender aunswere.

The B. of Saris.

Hippolytus was lately set abroade in print, about seuen yeares past, before neuer acquainted in the worlde.

p. 42Harding.

The .45. vntruth. He was well knowne before.

Dering.

That man is well knowen, of whom most men hauehave heard, or with whome many be acquainted. Now howe proueth M. Harding this Hippolytus is well knowne. Saint Ierom saith he named him. Surely this is a very small acquaintaunce to be named but of one man in all the worlde. Yet not thys bastard Hippolytus, but that other bishop, and martyr is named of Saint Ierom. Such vntruthes hauehave great sauor of enuie, or of folly, or of both. Sith maister Iuell sayth that Hippolytus was neuer acquainted in the worlde, and Maister Harding doth shew but only that Saint Ierom did name him. This vntruth, if truth were wel regarded, should surely hauehave bene spared. Howe be it I graunt, not onelyonly Ierom named Hippolitus, Li. 6 cap. 21 In Polim.but other many. Eusebius speaketh of him: so doth Theodoretus, and alleageth diuers sayings out of hys bookes. Gelasius, Epiphanius, and Niciphorus also hauehave named him, and yet all these had but small acquaintance with him. Eusebius, and Ierom, and Theodorete knewe not where he was bishop.Cont. Eut. & Nest. 1. Lib. 4. cap. 3 Gelasius sayth he was a bishop in Arabia, Nicephorus saith he was bishop of Ostia a hauen towne in Italy. Ierom sayth Origene was stirred vp by emulation of Hippolitus, yet it appeareth by sundrie recordes, that Origene was made bishop of Alexandria .x. yeares before Hippolytus did write. By this it appeareth, that y^e true Hippolytus, was, not long since, well knowne in the world, so that were this booke good, yet maister Iuell sayd true. But how good it is, and how vnworthy the name of Hippolytus, read the Replie, and thou shalt well perceyue. Beside this, the booke by M. Harding alleged, entituled de cōsummatione mundi, is not once mencioned, neither by Ierome, nor Eusebius, nor Theodorete, p. 43where they make especial menciō of Hippolytus bookes, then I trow we may say truely, this is no vntruth.

The B. of Saris.

He beginneth the first sentence of his booke with enim.

Harding.

The .46. vntruth. He beginneth otherwise.

Dering.

Here Maister Harding maketh himselfe merie with wondring at Gréeke readers, and scholemaisters, musing howe they could hauehave béene so ignorant. But may it please maister Albutius, that so faine would be a Grecian, to remember the Gréeke saying, foreign to laugh out of season is a great miserie. Had this defence of his foreign béene his own, though it be little worth, yet it had bene somewhat. Now it is altogither borrowed of Budaeus commentaries, the vpbraiding of other is a testimonie of his owne arrogancie. A manifest proufe all his Gréeke is not much, and a great coniecture, that much of his diuinitie is out of tables, but him selfe knoweth best what he is for this defence of his foreign, it is no doubt folishe, and of so great store, he hath made very yll choyse. For in this sentence by him alleaged foreign may well signifie enim. As touching the worde, I graunt sometime in the course of an oration, it may be placed, onelyonly to adourne the sentence: but this happeneth very seldome, euen as enim doth in Latine, and this vse was only peculiar vntounto such as followed the proper phrase of Athens. In an interrogation it is often put after y^e same sort, as in this verse, foreign doth God knowe this? or doth he knowe it, and will not reuenge it? So it is very often found in Plato, foreign an non? and thus ioyned, foreign, and such other it is not p. 44denied, but it may signifie nothing, but in the beginning of an oration no doubt it is neuer vsed, in the beginning of a booke it is very foolish, and if Hippolytus had not beene, it had neuer béene heard of. As likewise I trowe if maister Harding had not béene, it should neuer hauehave béene defended. In this doing he could meane nothing but to bleare the peoples eyes. They that list may stil think well of his doing, but Gods children shall one day forsake his euill doctrine.

The B. of Saris.

He sayth, and soothly auoucheth, that Antichrist shall be the deuill.

Harding.

The .47. vntruth. He sayth not so.

Dering.

Here I must aduertise the reader for the better discharge of maister Iuels sayings, that I hauehave not read all these newe found olde wryters, neyther yet meane I to reade them, if other necessitie shall not enforce me, so that how to verifie this vntruth plentifully out of y^e Author, neither I know, neither is the labour requisite, onelyonly Maister Harding that maketh this vntruth, giueth testimonye sufficient, that the vntruth is his own. In his Reioinder thus he doth alleage Hippolytus wordes.Reioin. fo. 59. Antichrist shall be a deuill incarnate in the shape of man. What troweth M. Harding is there any difference betwéene the deuill, and a deuill incarnate, or is it not shamelesse ignorance to affirme eyther of Antichrist. S. Paule calleth him hominem scelerosum, filium perditum, the wicked man, the sonne of perdition. He calleth him a man not as Hippolytus doth a deuill incarnate,1. Thes. 2.3.1 Thess 2:3 he sayth his comming shall be foreign according to the operation and strength of Sathan. Then it shall not be Sathan himselfe. What may we iudge of this Hippolytus, that is so ignorant p. 45in the scriptures, or what may we iudge of M. Harding, that can abide his Hippolytus, which should teach that Antichrist should be a deuill incarnate? He hath no true zeale vntounto the scriptures.

The. B. of Saris.

He sayth that he shall builde vp the temple at Ierusalem.

Harding.

The .48. vntruth. He sayth not so.

Dering.

Hippolytus, as maister Harding reporteth, sayth thus. Antichrist shall builde vp a Temple in Ierusalem.Reioind. fo. 58. M. Iuell sayth the Temple. Here be two very ignoraunt vntruthes, both made by turning the, into a, for the, may be expressed in y^e Gréeke, but a can not. So make the best of it, these vntruthes are but gesses, and so much the more shamelesse, bicause they can hauehave no assurance. But what if they were true: betwene a deuill, and the deuill, a church and the church, when both are lyes, what skilleth it whether are reported?

The B. of Saris.

If he should builde vponupon the worde pontifices Bishops, then all priestes shall stand backe.

Harding.

The .49. vntruth. It follovveth not.

Dering.

Thou hast heard before christian reader many vntruthes that were not worth reconing, now here followeth one without shew of wit or vnderstanding, and yet it is set out to the vtmost, as if maister Harding had here an especiall aduauntage. He solaceth his heauy spirit with many foolish questions, p. 46and asketh when Maister Iuell will be ashamed of his foolish conclusions,Reioind. fo. 58. and of his peuish arguments? and in the end he maketh maister Iuel to reason thus. Christ shall call Bishops to his kingdome, ergo he shall call no priestes. If all these mery toyes be applied in season, then let maister Harding hauehave the victorie. If this be maister Iuels argument, then let this one go for an vntruth. But if this sport be disgraced for want of truth, and these pretie questions nothing worth, bycause they stande vponupon a lie, then this vntruth is aunswered, and M. Hardings pleasant writing is proued foolish. Read the Replie, thou shalt sée howe maister Iuell goeth about to enterpret Hippolytus wordes, and sayth, they are not to be vnderstanded directly as they lie. For if maister Harding should builde vponupon the verye worde, then bicause the mencion is made of Bishops, all common priestes should be excluded. But this shal not be so. Therfore we must not take the wordes as they lie. Nowe iudge whether Maister Iuell do make this foolish argument, or if he doe not, whie is M. Harding so malapert without occasion.