A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths, Part 1 (3 of 3)

A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths · Part 1 (3 of 3)

p. 80But by M. Hardings doctrine, the holye ghost might hauehave spoken in this sorte: Looke all vponupon this, and worship it, this is my body. And of the cup: Drinke none of you of this, yet it is my bloud. Such is the sacriledge of that wicked masse, in doing, to vndoe that our Sauiour hath saide. But here I cannot a little wonder at them. In their owne inuentions they hauehave placed in their Masse these words, accipite, manducate, and some thinke they are very requisite to transsubstanciation: yet when they vtter them, they meane nothing lesse, than that any other, but them selues, should take part. They prepare but a litle cake, and a draught of wyne, to make sporte with. They intende not to communicate with other, yet they saye alway: take, and eate. A lye is very euill in any maner doing, but in the seruice of God, it is very detestable. God when he will, turne their hartes. Here we se concerning this sacrament, Christ commaunded nothing, but that we shoulde in a holy company eate, and drinke, in remembraunc… of his death, and passion. But how turneth the Pope, our sauiours commaundement? He careth neither for eating, nor drinking, but when he goeth forth, he setteth vp his sacrament vponupon a white horse backe, and men of eche syde with tapers, and litle belles, and so teacheth the horse, that he will go to the aultare, and there knéele vponupon his knées, till his Maisters god be taken downe. Thus will the Pope teach horses to worship God, euen as somtyme the Leuites woulde cary the Arke in a newe carte, when they brought it out of the house of Aminadab. For neyther hauehave we any one word, to cary about the sacrament,Sam. 6.3. neyther had they of the carte. And this is a greate misery, that hauing no warrant for our Marchandise, our candels, our sensors, our vestiments, our oyle boxes, our corporasse, our por…uisse, and sixe hundred thousandes suche p. 81other, yet we make no account of them as though they pleased God. If any thing séeme somewhat doubtfull, then we turne vsus to Doctors, to councels, to decrees, to scholemen, and to the holy closet of the Popes owne brest, as thoughe Gods worde were not our wisedome, and our vnderstanding in the sight of all people.Deut. 4.6.Deut 4:6 But God be thanked for his owne ordinaunces, and lawes that are so righteous. Now to the next marke that Maister Harding coulde neuer shoote at, and this marke hath a great many péeces, and such as is not easly discerned, which is the greatest, so I knowe not certainelye wher at to measure. The first péece is this, there is no difference betwixt the Priest, and the people, in the mystery of the sacrifice. But what meaneth Maister Harding, to finde the marke him selfe, and then refuse to shoote at it? Would he hauehave vsus thinke, this were Maister Iuels marke? He saith no such thing. Sure M. Harding hath verye straunge artillery. His bow is made of slaunders, and it will shoote nothing else but lies. He can get nothing with cunning, therfore he would saue him selfe by facing. This stode them in good stede in the disputations at Oxford, wher their friends wer moderators, but in a booke that is written to all men, this shift is shameles. Let vsus sée, what saith M. Iuell of this marke? Not one word. Why doth Maister Harding reporte it? He is disposed to lye. But whervpon doth he gather it? Forsoth out of Bernard, for he saith as Maister Iuell alledgeth, not onelyonly the priest sacrificeth, but also the whole company of the faithful. But what maketh this for Maister Harding? The priest, and the people both doe sacrifice, therefore is there no difference in the ministerye? S. Peter saith, you are a kingly Priesthood, therfore is ther no difference in the function betwene the minister, and the laye man? True it is, that the minister, and the people do offer vp a lyke one sacrifice vntounto God, but that maketh nothing to Maister Hardings saying. Thus we se while he hobbeth, and roueth, and shooteth at eueryevery marke a lie, he was an p. 82hypocrite, when he was at the best, and nowe is led forwarde still to be an open enimie. Reade the .222. vntruth. An other péece of thys marke, is this, that men, and women make the sacrifice of the aulter, and be Priests, after the order of Melchisedech. Of this reade the .158. vntruth. The last péece of thys marke is yet woorst of all, nothing else but malice, slaunder, and wickednesse, here agaynst M. Iuell, bicause he wryteth not one such woord, and commonlye agaynst the truth of God,God is not authour of euill. which the wicked doe alwaye peruert. And this is that marke, that God is the author of euill, and driueth men to sin. What should I here aunswere, but euen saye with the Prophet:Esay. 28.15.Isa 28:15 The scornful hauehave said: We hauehave made falshood our refuge, and vnderunder vanitie we are hid. If euerye such euyll saying myght clayme an aunswere, M. Hardings one Reioynder would require many volumes. But for a sufficient contentation of the Reader, I say in all M. Iuels booke, there is no one such woord. I adde further, nor in all the bookes that euer were wrytten by any godly man of M. Iuels profession. Let M. Harding, or all hys companions, in searching ouer theyr wrytings, bryng but one letter, whereby we may gesse that euer such a saying was ment, and for my part, let hys writings be approued. If he can not doe this, consider of hys religion.Iob. 13.7.Job 13:7 He would not speake wyckedlye for Gods defence, nor talke deceitfully for his cause. If anye man require what our opinon is, let hym reade any learned man, intreating of the predestination of God, or of mans frée wyll, or for a better warrant, let him reade the scriptures it selfe. We say, al that God made, was very good. He created man in honour, and gaue hym frée wyll,Gen…. and man of himselfe gaue place to inordinate affections, where hee might hauehave obeyed Gods woord, euen as it is written: He hath set water and fire before thée, stretch out thy hand vntounto which thou wilt. And agayne, God created man without corruptiō. And concerning sinne, we say,Eccle. 15.16. Sap. 1.23.Sir 15:16 through the enuy of the Deuill, came death into the p. 83world. Neither néede we make exception agaynst this authoritie, bicause it is not in the canō. For the Apostle doth authorize it, where he writeth: He that committeth sinne,1. Iohn. 3.8.1 John 3:8 is of the Deuil. For the Deuill sinneth euen from the beginning. And in an other place: Diabolus est mendax, & pater eius, Iohn. 8, 44.John 8:44the Deuill is a lyer, and the father thereof, not as your friende Mayster Dorman doth interprete it, and so was hys father before hym, for that were in déede to make God the authour of euill, which is the marke you talke of. Now euen as the Deuill is authour of euil, so we by his suggestiō hauehave the next cause in our selues, which is an vncleane hart, lyke as our Sauiour saith: Out of the hart procéede euil cogitations. &c.Mat. 15.11.Matt 15:11 Of God we say, and we say againe, and we preache it, and we wryte, and beleue it, and in it we reioyce, that God is neyther the author of euyll, neyther yet would it should be committed. The shepe goe astray, without the shepherdes wyll. The groate is lost, and the poore woman would not so. Christ woulde gather togither Ierusalem, as the Hen doth hir Chickens, but they would not. But this we say, that the wayes of God, are not like the wayes of men, that he should not know what thynges were to come. He could not be deceiued in his own creature.Rom. 9.19.Rom 9:19 He did foresée the fall of Adam, and by his omnipotency could hauehave made him stand. For who can resist hys will? He coulde hauehave made him so pure, that he should not hauehave sinned, euen as he hath now made his Aungels, and wyll make the whole number of his elect,Iohn. that no man anye more shall take awaye theyr ioye from them.

And as we are sure this is Gods omnipotēcy, so why he did it not, we cā not assigne any cause, but bicause he would not. For we knowe he hath done al things that he woulde.Psalm. Yet a cause ther was, and that a most iust, and good cause. For their is no iniquity with him.Roma. And this cause he did knowe in his eternall secret counsell before all worldes, for as much as all thinges are present with him. To enter further into Gods p. 84councell, and aske why he appointed such a course in which the reprobate, both Angels, and men shoulde fall away, this were presumptuous folly.Roma. 9. Shall the pot say vntounto the potter, why hast thou made me so? The Godly will staye here, and in the feare, and louelove of God wil professe, and beleue, both that God ruleth all thinges with his mighty worde,Heb. 1.Heb 1 and yet wylleth he no man to sinne. We hauehave so much corruption in our selues, that we néede no further prouoking vntounto wickednesse. Now to Maister Hardings purpose, thus much we saye, that God permitteth synne, and with longe patience doth suffer the vessels of wrath prepared to destruction:Roma. 9.22. but yet this permission we say, doth appertayne vntounto the will of God. For he doth not suffer it, eyther inforced, or against his will: neither yet doth he so suffer it, that he doth nothing him selfe. For he ruleth, and gouerneth, euen their iniquity. He suffereth it not, to rage at will, but guideth it, either to the punishment of the wicked, as he oft punished the Israelites with the wickednes of straunge Princes, or to the triall of his elect, as it is well acknowledged of the prophet Dauid, saying of Shimei: he curseth,…. Sa. 16.10. euen bicause the Lord hath bid him curse Dauid, yet God made not the malice of Shimeis mynde. Likewyse where it is sayde of the destruction of Ierusalem, that God brought vponupon them the king of the Chaldeans: God did not ingraffe in Nabuchadoneyzar his great cruelty, but being bred in his own mind,2. Par. 36.172 Chr 36:17 he brought it vponupon whom it pleased him. Therfore Christ saith, all the heares of our head are numbred, and with out Gods appointment,Luke: …1.7.21.18. ther shal not one of them perish. This therefore is our doctrine, God is no cause of wickednesse, but men cannot apply their owne wickednesse, but where it pleaseth God, neither do they exercise their wickednes, but when, and how far his grace doth leaue them. For plainer declaration of this, we may compare the grace of God, and the sunne, If the sunne be ouer the earth, ther is then light, if it be gone, then is ther darknes: yet is not the Sunne cause of darknes, p. 85but such is the nature of the worlde, where the Sunne is not, there is foorthwith darknes: So God is the light, and man is full of darkenes,Iohn. 1.4.John 1:4 bicause of corruption which it hath receiued. When the light of Gods grace doth shine in this darknes, then man séeth his goings, and walketh forth in righteousnes, but if the darknes do not comprehend the light, then man thorow his owne impurity, doth walke in all vncleanes: yet is not God cause of this euill doings, no more then the Sunne is cause that the worlde without it, is darknes.Ion. 13. But who so doth receiue this light, he is borne, not of bloud, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.Rom. 9.16.Rom 9:16 And as S. Paule saith, it is not in him that willeth, nor in him that runneth, but in God that sheweth mercy, for it is he that worketh in vsus,Phil. 2.13.Phil 2:13 both the will, and the déede, euen of his good pleasure. Therefore the prophet Oze saith, thy destruction O Israel, doth come of thy selfe, but thy saluation is of me. Thus we se man doth of him self the thing that is euil, God onelyonly doth that which is good, yet in such sort y^t what so euer is done in the world, good or euil, by consent, or vnaduisedly, God disposeth al. Chaunce, and fortune hath no place, all maner circumstances are at Gods will, to his glory, and the comfort of the elect. And this is plainly taught vsus in that law of Moyses, wher he that presumptuously doth kil a man, is cōmaunded to be taken frō the aultar, that he may die. For there it is sayd, if any one do kil an other, & hauehave layd no waite for him,Exod, 21.13. thē God hath offred him into his hand. So chaunce is no chaūce, fortune is no fortune, but God is all in al, & therfore it is wel sayd of S. Ierom, nihil accidit bonorum, aut malorum temere, et sine prouidentia, sed omnia iudicio dei accidunt. No good nor euill doth happen without a cause, or by fortune, without Gods prouidence, but al thinges do happen after his iudgement. For al creatures are, as it were, Gods instruments, to vse after his owne counsell: yet man doth of him selfe, that which is wicked. Thus vsed the Assirians, the Caldeans, the Persians, the p. 86Grecians, the Romains, they through their owne ambition made warre vponupon the Iewes, but God appointed the tyme, when it should be a scourge for his peoples disobedience. So in all wickednesse God doth also worke, but he onelyonly that which is good. In the punishment of Iob, the Deuil worked to satiate his malice against mankinde, God to the triall of his seruauntes faith, that he might poure againe his mercyes more abundantly vponupon him. Christ was crucified on the Iewes behalfe, that they might worke, as enuy moued them, but on Gods behalfe, that he might paye the raunsome for the sinnes of the worlde. Now if this be to saye, God is the authour of euill, then hath Maister Harding founde out a true marke, if it be not, he then shooteth in a false ground, and his lying arowes are broken vponupon vngodly stones. Thus it apeareth, what part we gyue vntounto God in euill doyngs. And thys the scripture, when so it sheweth, how God worketh in the reprobate,Exod, 4.21. Psal. 5, 4.Ps 5:4 as wher it is saide, ego indurabo cor Pharaonis, I will hardē Pharaos hart, we must know God is not he, that loueth wickednes. For God hath said of Pharao, I know that y^e king of Egypt will not let you go,Exod. 3.9.Exod 3:9 but by strong hande. So his wickednesse was of his owne will, when God dyd not mollefie his hart with new grace. But God did vse this wickednes for his glory, euen as he testifieth. For this cause hauehave I appointed thée,Exod. 9.16.Exod 9:16 to shew my power in thée, & to declare my name throughout all the worlde. Now to aske further why God did not sende Pharao more grace in mekenesse of spirite: we must aunswer with S. Paul: O man, who art thou that pleadest with God? He hath mercy on whom he will, & whom he wil, he hardeneth. Our wisdome is but foolishnes w^t him, we must séeke no further, then Gods word hath reueled. Sure we are, he is a righteous God, & sheweth mercy vntounto thousandes of them, that louelove him. So that, if by testimonie of our owne conscience, we hang vponupon that mercy, and walke as he hath commaunded, the lesse we sée is in our selues, the more sure is p. 87our hope. For how often we thinke on him, so many testimonies we hauehave of hys louelove, and we are sure no man can pul vsus out of his hands. And thus we doe sée the markes M. Harding coulde not shoote at, méete markes for Christian Archers, saue those, which he him selfe hath set vp. With which markes, bicause he was neuer acquainted, we hauehave to vnderstand, that as he is now a professed enimye, so he was then a dissembler, and a man pleaser. Therfore we yeld vntounto him this conclusion, that he hath not taught the Gospell in such sinceritie, as we teach it now. We beleue him with out his oth, he shal not néede to take God to recorde, that hath brought their imaginations to confusion.

Harding.

¶Touching the other pointes of your Gospell, which you speake, how so euer I spake once at Oxford of purgatory, and at an other time of the Masse, otherwyse then now by Gods grace, and study of more mature yeares, I hauehave ben instructed: yet that any tyme I tolde you of the Paper walles, & painted fiers of Purgatory, and that the Masse was a heape of Idolatrye, and the Mystery of iniquity, it is all together false. Those Ministerlike termes of Paper Walles, and painted Fiers, in good sooth I remember not, that euer I heard before your booke came forth.

Dering.

This that M. Harding graūteth here, maketh great presūpsion y^t he hath said more. For if he hath spokē against Purgatorie, then he hath confessed those fiers are but paintings: if he hauehave thought wickednes to be in the Masse, how could he not abhor these former wicked opiniōs? But we must pardon him in speaking not considerately, & he will prouide to speake litle truely. Once he spake against purgatory, an other tyme against the Masse, but very modestly. In déede they be such tender chickēs of the Popes brood, that if ye handle them roughly, p. 88they will surely dye. But if Maister Harding do speake now from his hart, when he is so vehement: doubtlesse if he were then so modest, he was an hipocrite. Now his zeale is so much to his holy father of Rome, that he spareth no reproches against Gods ministers. Then his deuocion was so cold in setting forth Gods glory, that he could not spue out his déepe dissimulation. But what skilleth it how he preached then, sith he is now reuoked, and like a dogge is returned vntounto his vomite? Here he sheweth vsus the cause why he was conuerted, or rather peruerted. And in that he is not constant, as he was before in his Religion, the grace of God (saith he) and the study of more matures yeares did instruct me otherwise. This cause doth sufficiently confute it selfe. For Maister Harding chaunged his Religion in seuen dayes, in which he had not many yeares to study▪ nor yet quiet time to deliberate. Héere followeth a little iesting at the name of Ministers, and vngodly Metaphores, to the defacing of their preaching, all not woorth the aunswere. And in déede who so would scoure away all that froth from his writinges, should leaue him in most places, nothing but white paper.

Harding.

¶What I should hauehave done, and how farre I should hauehave gone, in case Gods prouidence had not changed that state: he sawe, to whom nothing is vnsene. And perhaps in continuance of time, I should hauehave ioined further with you, except his speciall grace had called me backe, and seuered me from you. What soeuer in those dayes I thought or said amisse, our Lorde forget, and forgeue. Verye like it is, had not the condition of that time bene altered, that I shoulde hauehave thought, and said worse then I did, and hauehave bene carried away further. But nowe I see what great cause I hauehave to reioyce and thank God, who vsed the change of the time as an occasion, and meane, whereby to chaunge me p. 89vntounto the better. For whiles I feared to suffer that I would not, by new condition of the time, I was compelled to seeke the truth, which before I knew not, and willingly to holde that, which before I refused.

Dering.

In this paragraphe before, Maister Harding saith, that the grace of God, & more mature yeares did better instruct him. But he had little hope to finde many yeares in seuen dayes, therfore now he saith, that Gods especial grace, & the change of the Prince, did change him also. So y^t whether of both did helpe, many yeares in a weeke, or the change of a Prince, he hath called God to witnes to a lye. But let it be, the change of the time did change Maister Harding, yet let him not ascribe it vntounto God, which is his owne euill doing. Surely for the Minister to turne sodenly with the worlde, it is an vnwéented kinde of calling, and such as the holy Ghost hathe left none in example.Advince. Epist. 48. But you defend your selfe with S. Aug. saying. True it is, a man may be brought vntounto Christ through feare of punishment, else why serueth authority? Yet as this liked you in. S. Aug. to know it might be done, so may it please you also in y^e same Epistle, to know how it is done. S August. saith, ac sic ista cogitatione docibiles facti, non in calumnijs, et fabulis humanis, sed in diuinis libris, promissam per omnes gentes inuenirent eccleziam, that by this due consideration of earthlye punishment, we being made apt for instruction, not in mens wranglinges, and deuyses, but in the heauenly bookes, we shoulde finde the church promysed through all the world. This péece Maister Harding hath concealed. For in his turn he did not séeke for the church in Gods Scriptures, but in mens tradicions. Therfore he is little helped by S. Augustine. Nay he doth rather shew y^e cause, why Maister Harding is now so obdurate, quam multos, saith he, obduratae consuetudinis graue vinculū colligabat, how many hath the heauy yoake of olde custome tyed togither, that it p. 90might be fulfilled in them, the froward seruant shall not be amended with the woorde of God: so that he not clayming his turne by the aduertisement of the scriptures, but cleauyng fast vntounto olde custome, hath deliuered him selfe from thys helpe of S. Augustine. Héere he maketh a long discourse of his priuate doings, impertinent to his priuate Masse, which I can not meddle with, bicause I know them not.

Harding.

¶If I may be beleued, telling that of my selfe, which I my self, & God know best, this is the truth. My errour was of ignoraunce, not of malice. My vnderstanding was obscured, my will was not of selfe purpose peruerted. Wherin I offended, it was not so much through malice of will, as through want of skill, I did not with animositie, as S. Augustine calleth it, mainteine what lyked my priuate choise, but ignorauntly I receiued, what guilefully the condition of the time obtruded.

Dering.

Here M. Harding, vponupon better aduise, assigneth yet agayne the third cause of hys turning. He hath nowe forsaken better instruction, by mature yeares, he taketh holde no more of the chaunge of the Prince, but for his more commendation saith, he was turned by prayer, I trow, by saying our Ladies Mattines, & this cause, bicause it is the best cause, he setteth it out with his best maner of writing, and with the dissolute figure, sometyme speaking ryme, sometyme hauing no reason, he concludeth this third cause, that is héere alleadged. But what néedeth this any long aunswer. If his errour wer ignorance, how got he so spéedy knowledge? If his vnderstāding wer obscured, how was it so quickly lightned? What bookes red he? who was his teacher? Hath he found so many miracles for his priuate Masse, that he woulde hauehave vsus wéene he was turned by a Miracle? Yet he saith it soothly, that his offence was not so muche through malice of wyll, as through want of skyll. p. 91Now verily M. Harding, this like falling figure, falleth in this place quite out of order. This other repetition about the sayings of our sauiour Christ, séeke, and you shall finde. &c. hath preatie turning in wordes, but M. Harding in hys lyfe hath turned himselfe quite from them.

Hardyng.

¶That I proceded no farther in errour, it was the goodnes of God, who with his mercifull hand stayde me backe, from running to the extremitie, that you be run vntounto.

Dering.

Nowe M. Harding can shewe no good cause of his falling awaye in to the power of darknesse, it liketh him to gesse, what brought him so farre into the kingdome of light. For séeing by his hobs and rouers, his hart was not vpright toward God, he can not iudge, why he was estemed such a preacher of his Gospell. But this gessing at his going forwarde, is as vayne, as the causes of his returne hauehave bene found vnconstant. Satan can turne him selfe in to an Angell of light, to make his Ministers thinke they doe God good seruice. The idolatrous Israelites would séeme to séeke God daylye,Esay. 58.1.Isa 58:1 euen as a nation that did righteously, and had not forsaken the statutes of their God. So M. Harding would faine hauehave his turning, for his more humilitie, and hys suddaine reuolting, for his further well doing. But what néedeth so busie searche, in so playne a matter, foreign, his own hobbing, and double dealing, made God giuegive him ouer to his old idolatries, out of which before, of his frée merciemercy, he had drawen him. So let M. Harding séeke no farther cause.Esaye. 59.1. His iniquities hauehave seperated betwene him, and his God. God for his mercies sake once turne him agayne. For now he doth nothing, but hatch Cockatrices egges, and weaueth the Spyders webbe.

Harding.

¶You seme to maruail how I became so perfite a Catholike p. 92in so shorte a time. As you say, I preached the contrary many yeares, wherin you say vntruly. For neither preached I ful two yeares, and that not many Sermons, neither was I priest before Quene Maries time. So you pretend it to be an impossible thing, that in seuen daies (for of that tyme you speake more then once) I should reade ouer all the Scriptures, Counsels, and Doctours. as though a man by Gods speciall grace, could not be turned from errour to truth, whose hart was not stubbornlye set to mainteine a part, nor yet drowned in manye errours, vnlesse he first read ouer all bookes of Diuinitye. What meane you M. Iewell. Wil you appoint God a tracte of tyme to work in, when he toucheth the hart of mā? S. Ambrose could hauehave taught you to iudge otherwise, wher he saith, Nescit tarda moliminae sancti spiritus gratia.

Dering.

Now Maister Harding in a long discourse commeth again to his former matter, and as the Poet saith, sopitos suscitat ignes, stirreth a broade againe the fire, that was well raked vp, and telleth vsus a new cause of his tourning, and that was Gods secrete inspiration, and therto alleadgeth the sayings of Ambrose, and Leo, and the exampels of Elizeus, Paul, and Mathew. As touching the grace of the holy Ghost, I must needes confesse, it néedeth no protracte of time. It may make in one moment, of a plough man a Prophet, of a persecutour an Apostle, of a Publicane a Disciple. But shall Maister Harding therefore think, that by the same spirit he was made of a preacher an apostata? And for further proofe of this, he telleth vsus when he was made priest, as though he had taken the charecter of the beast, and fallen downe, and worshipped hir, by the mocion of the holy Ghost? Better had Maister Harding stoode to his other causes, that longer yeares gaue him more vnderstanding, or the change of the Prince chaunged him, or else he was conuerted by prayer, then to make the holye p. 93ghost author of his euill doing. But O miserable state of that man, that shoulde be plunged thus in errours, and yet séeth not his sinnes. Such confidence had the Iewes in al their fornications, that being stirred to repentaunce,Malac. 3.7.Mal 3:7 would deny their euill doing, and saye wherein shall we returne?

Harding.

¶And why doe you charge me with the suddaine change of seuen dayes? Was it not one whole yeare after king Edwardes death, before I came in pulpit? And did I not of myne owne accorde, without all compulsion, or request of others, simply, and fully acknowledge, and confesse my former ouersight, and errour? Was not all the vniuersity of Oxforde witnesse hereof? O Maister Iewel, I doubt not, but by that my voluntary and humble confession, I hauehave put the Diuell to silence, thorow the same. He shall not hauehave power to obiect vntounto me myne errour before Christ our Iudge, in that dreadfull daye.

Dering.

Now least for all this trifling, we shoulde accuse M. Harding of rashnes, in fine he bringeth a whoole yeares deliberation. But Lord what manner of defence is this? After so long reasoning, to proue nothing. Was all this defence of a sodaine chaunge to excuse the thing, hee neuer committed? This was the first cloke for his turning. If it shadowed it well, why did he cast it of? If it did not, why doth he take it now againe? Cast it away Maister Harding, if you be happy, your tourning and all, and yet againe turne once for the better, you hauehave not put the Diuell to silence with this turning, our Lord deliuer you from him. It is he that walketh through drye places, and when he can finde no rest, returneth thither againe from whence he was driuen out, and as thoughe he had found you sweapt, and garnished, so after made his ingredience, in your seuen folde wickednes. You say Maister Iuels p. 94malice doeth séeme to passe the malice of the deuill. But it is ynough for the Disciple, to be as his Maister is, and the seruaunt,Mat. 10.…5Matt 10:5 as the Lord. If they hauehave called the Maister of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his houshold? The authority here brought of S. Cyprian, is to little purpose. But had you better considered that Epistle, you would with better aduice hauehave spared the reuerence of that good Bishop. You know what his name doth signifie. And S. Cyprian saith, this alwayes is the worke of the deuill, that he should be lye the seruauntes of God, and with false opinions, gloriosum nomen infamet, slaunder their glorious name, that they which are very shining in the testimony of their owne conscience, might be defiled with other mens reporte. Wel God graunt vntounto you, according to Maister Iuells prayer.

Harding.

¶But what meant you Maister Iewel of all men, thus vncourteously, and with all verye falsly, to deale with me?

Dering.

After all these deuices in defence of his owne dooing, he fashioneth a new inuention against his aduersary, and in long examination of his whole lyfe, he hath espied in him once, a little going back, and of that would faine make a couer to hyde his owne apostasy. And that this péece of the Epistle may be all lyke in it selfe, he maketh the first entry with an open lye, and saith, Maister Iuell hath reported falsly of hys turning. But the world is witnesse both of Maister Iuels saying, and Maister Hardings doing. But he goeth forwarde, and asketh Maister Iuell this question: Are not you one M. Iohn Iuell, that once subscribed to certaine articles? &c. Why bringeth M. Harding this? This is confessed in his aunswere to Doctour Cole. Therfore I graunt Maister Harding it is euen he, that when the anointed of the Lorde was taken in your …ettes,R…m. 4.20. vnderunder whose shadow he shoulde hauehave ben preserued p. 95among the heathen, he was scattered among the other shéepe, till God turned his hand vponupon his little ones, to cary forth his name among the Gentiles.Zacha. 13.7. But marke good Christian reader, what this man hath espied in this Bishops lyfe. He did once subscribe in S. Maries church in Oxford, & did not all Christes Disciples once forsake him in Ierusalem?Math. 26.36 Gaia. 3.11. Actes. 18.18 Actes. 16.3.Matt 26:36Acts 18:18Acts 16:3 Did not Peter dissemble at Antioch? Did not Paule shaue his head at Cenchrea? did he not circumcise Timothy at Lystra? HaueHave not all the serauntes of God, Patriarches, Prophets, Apostles, and martyrs done as much? Is this the greatest fault you can laye to that good bishop, that for feare of your tyranny, he did ones write Iohn Iuel? God be praysed, that hath so directed y^• course of his seruant, and God send vsus all his spirit, that do professe his Gospel, that our liues may so answer our profession. Now touching those disputations at Oxforde, where Maister Harding saith, the vttermost was heard, that could be brought on our syde, that is one among his other vntruthes. It is knowen how vncourteously those reuerend Fathers were entreated, their sayings coulde not be heard for the others shamelesse …issings. This commendation of Maister Hardings catholike Doctours is out of season. Their learning, bicause it is Gods gift, I do reuerence, their vsage I detest, and abhor. The rumours of some of their doings, are yet hot in Cambridge. If I would make base notes in the mergin, as Maister Hardings companions do vse, where they doe speake slaunderously, I could say the truth, and make … Christian mans eares to glowe at their filthynes. But God amend them, and let the report of their euill, be buried with their euill.

Hardyng.

¶What if God so dispose, that nowe also the hart of the Prince, detesting the lewdnesse of their liues, who professe your Gospell, and seing the vntruth of your doctrine, and lamenting this vniuersall decay of vertue proceding thereof, and the vtter damnation of so many soules, be wholy bent to restore the Catholique p. 96Religion of the Church, and abandon all these wicked new deuises of Geneua? What will you then do?

Dering.

Now after that Master Harding hath enquired much after Maister Iuells inconstancy, and can espy little worthy reprehension, in an vncharitable imagination, he will néedes gesse what Maister Iuell would doe, if he were againe put to his triall. And héere with a sighing supposition he doeth féede his Popish veine, and asketh. What if God so dispose the hart of the Princes. &c. To this I aunswer, that if God should so do, his iust iudgement should be vponupon the sinnes, as well of the Prince, as of the people. For it is his mercy that we be not consumed. But what if God will not so deale with his enheritance? What if he wyll not shew his people such heauie things?Psal. 60.Ps 60 What if the king of Ashur shal ouercome vsus no more? What if we shall no more be led captiues into Babilon?Psalm. 3, Psalm. 9.Ps 3Ps 9 What if the téeth of the wicked are broken? What if destructions be come to a perpetuall end? Surely if our iniquities doe not turne awaye Gods blessings, the hope of the vngodlye is like a thinne fome,Sa…. 5. that is caried awaye with the streame. As touching our Princesse, hir hart is in the hande of the Lord, and though we be no men pleasers, yet this is the contentation of our conscience, that we sée in hir the expresse tokens of the childe of God, and we are witnesses vntounto our selues, how willinglye we obey hir. Dauid was a good king,2. Sam. 7.2 Sam 7 though he would builde God an house, thoughe it liked him not, that the tabernacle shoulde be couered with Goates heare. Ionathas was a good king, & very zealous, though the high places were not taken away.2. Par. 21. a2 Chr 21 Ezechias was a very godly king, though when God left him, to trie him, & to knowe all that was in hys hart,2. Para. 32 he found him faultie. Iosias was a vertuous yong Prince, as euer was in Ierusalem, yet he was a feard of Necho king of Egipt.2. Para. 33. Deborah was a good Quéene, and is not blamed in the scriptures, yet no doubt she was not p. 97with out fault, and what if our Quéene, that hath restored Gods religion should doe something, that liked Maister Harding? Doth he therfore thinke, she will peruert the wayes of the Lorde, and set vp againe his Romish Idolatries? Their prophecies are now expired, and that olde rotten Epistle before the confutation of the Apology, is now forgotten. From what stomaks such flatteries proceded, it is not hard to iudge. But peace be vponupon Quéene Elizabeth, and vponupon the Israel of the Lorde. For this great decay of vertue, wherof Maister Harding complayneth, it is not in the worde of God, it is our corrupte manners. This is an olde obiection made against true Religion. S. Paul doth complaine of it, that for this cause Gods name was euill spoken of among the gentiles. So y^e wicked Iewes would complaine:Roma. …. Since we left to burne incence to the Quene of heauen,Iere. 44.Jer 44 we hauehave ben consumed with the sworde, and with famine. Yet the leauing off of their Idolatry was no cause of their euills.

Harding.

¶You did once confesse to mee plainly in Sarisbury, when ye came thither in visitation, that you neuer lyked the Supremacie of the temporal Princes ouer the Churche of England. Did you not tell mee, that it stode neither with Scripture, nor with Doctours, nor with the iudgment of the learned men of Germany, Geneua, and the parties where you had ben? And why then preach you not this Doctrine abroade?

Dering.

As touching this priuate talke of Maister Iuell, had with Maister Harding at Sarisbury, concerning the Quéenes supremacie, it is a malicious lye of Maister Hardings vncharitable hart. If it were true: yet I might well aunswere with the Philosophers, that there are .iiii. sorts, in whome is singular impudence, in a woman, that putteth on a mans garment, in a gheast, that thinketh him selfe as good, as his hoste, p. 98in him that will be talking of Princes, wher he hath no occasion foreign, & in him that when a thing is tolde him in secrete, doth tel it abroad openly. Now if this accusation were true, yet what witnesse hath Maister Harding to crye out of his impudency. But what if it be false? What if it be a shamelesse lye? A christian man will saye with weeping eyes: God amende the euill speakers. But Demosthenes sayd to the people of Athens: If you sée a Uiper, or a byting Spider, though they did neuer sting you, yet you will kill them, foreign.Contra. Aristog. prāoc. 1. in fine. Lyke wyse O ye men of Athens, when you sée a slaunderer, hauing this vipers nature, tary not till he sting you, but kill him as sone as you se him. If this accusation were true, the very Gentiles could not abide it, if it be false, they thinke M. Harding not woorthy lyfe. And that it is false, his own words are a sufficient witnesse, which say, he spake after the opinion of the learned men in Germany, and other where, who do all graunt that their is no authority in the earth next vnderunder God aboue the authority of a Prince, and that in all causes, and estates ecclesiasticall, and temporall, euen as S. Peter sayth: Submit your selues vntounto all ordinaūce of man, whether it be vntounto the King,…. Pet. 2.13 as vntounto the chiefe, or vntounto gouernours, as vntounto them that he sendeth. This supremacy which S. Peter graū teth vntounto the king, the papist wil in no wise acknowledge, but will hauehave the prowde Pope to treade vppon the Emperours neck, and Princes to holde his stirrop while he goeth to horsbacke, and waite bare foote at his gates, to abide his papall pleasure. Good Lord how was that worlde droonken with superstition? We giuegive our Princesse hir authority, we submit our selues to hir gouernmēt, she is the anoynted of the Lord, and chosen chiefe ruler of his church of Englande, and God graunt hir many yeares to reigne, till the fretting enuy be confounded in all flattering stomackes. That euer Maister p. 99Iuell denied hir supremacy, it is doubtlesse an abhominable lie, foreged out of secrecy, bicause it should not be cōuinced by witnesse. But it shal not be a misse, bicause this thing cōmeth to question, to note what M. Iuell might saye, and what the Prince must doe. It is not vnknowen, what authoritie hath bene giuen vntounto the Pope, that he hath rule both of heauen and earth,Dist. 22. omnes. Dist. 40. Li. Papa. and he that taketh one iote of this authoritie from that church, is an hereticke. And that he may not be iudged, as Pope Boniface hath decreed, though he drawe innumerable soules headlong into hell, and that he hath all knowledge in the closet of his brest,De. cor. pr…b. proposuition glossa. Dist. 19. in me moriam. Dist. 19. enimvero that he can dispence against the Apostles, and against the old testament, and that we must abide the yoke that the Pope layeth vponupon vsus, though it be intollerable, and that seate is apostolica sublimitas, euen as high as the Apostles, and that quicquid statuit, quicquid ordinat, what soeuer the Pope appointeth, what soeuer he ordeineth, perpetuo, & irrefragabiliter obseruandum est, it must be obserued for euer, without any contradiction. Suche blasphemous authority giuen vntounto the Pope, made, that in the time of restoring the Gospell, euen good men attributed more vntounto the Prince, then was conuenient, and flatterers more then was to be borne with all, as in the time of the sixe articles Bishop Gardiner, and his felowes, did vntounto King Henry the eight, when they gaue him authority, in the church of God to institute or disanull Lawes, as it lyked him best, to forbid the mariage of ministers, to deny the people the cup in the Lords supper. The graunting of such authority is flattery in the subiect, & the receiuing it, presumption in the Prince. The church is y^e spouse of Christ, purchased with his precious bloud, and ioyned vntounto him, euen as a woman vntounto hir husbande. The Prince is héere a subiect, and may set the church no Lawes, but as hir heade appointed. Christ doth sanctifye his church with the washing of water through the worde, that is, with baptisme,Ephesi. and the preaching out our iustification in p. 100his frée mercy, if the Prince say it shall be sanctified, with crossing, and créeping, with diredges, and Trentalls, with holy Breade, and holy Water, with Pilgrimage, and Bonfiers, the Prince is rebellious, and the Subiect must yéelde his lyfe. Then for a briefe conclusion, if the Prince wil make any new holynes, or forbid the minister to preach y^e word, that is written, or if he will say we shall Prophecie no more at Bethel, Amos. 7.13.Amos 7:13bicause it is the Kings chapple, and bicause it is the kings Courte, it lyeth not in his authority. Wo be vntounto the Prince, that shall be so led with errour. But if the Princes will doe nothing, but she will aske councell at the mouth of God, if she will humble hir selfe vnderunder him as low as the poorest creature in the world, if she will set out his glory, and …presse the wicked blasphemyes of the honorable, if Christ crucified for hir sinnes, be alwayes pictured before the eyes of hir soule: then shall she runne a happy course, and in the end hauehave a happier garlande. If she shoulde héere of enimies, hir owne conscience shoulde make hir without feare, if all iniquitie should stirre vsus to rebellion, she should sit vnmoueable. The Lord hath placed hir, and who is he shall put hir downe? She is a good nourse of Christes misticall body, and no authority is alone hereof, yet in all this supremacy we tye hir vntounto the worde of God, and as she hath regard vntounto hir owne soule in the name of hir God, we charge hir not to go beyonde it, In this is hir prerogatiue, that she can inforce other to this obedience, and no man can enforce hir. This supremacye Maister Iuell did neuer deny, the popish supremacy no good man will graūt. Let it then be contemned, wherwith Maister Harding maketh vp this tragedy, that we teach one thing at home, an other thing abroade. After this vsuall inuention he frameth a little Philosophy of his owne, and then furthereth it on Epicure, wherwith he faineth his comparison. Now let the indifferent reader iudge, which of these is the wauering man, Maister Iuell, that in his life hath gone not one hower p. 101backe, or Maister Harding, that many yeares hath preached contrary doctrine. Doutlesse had he liued in Seuerus time, notwithstanding this long apology,Alex. ab. cl. lib. 2. cap. 13. his armour shoulde hauehave ben pulled off, and he left naked in token of an apostata, and his aduersary commended, that in all his lyfe hath ben founde so constant.

Hardyng.

¶What fault so euer you finde with my chaūge, certaine it is, al chaungs be not reproueable. He chaūgeth wel, that chaungeth from euil to good. It is a happy chaunge, that is made from errour to truth, from schisme to vnitie, from heresie to right faith, from contempt of Religion, to the louelove of Religion, from darkenesse to light, from pride to humilitie, from pleasing men, to study how to please God. Who so euer maketh this chaunge, he is not to be accompted mutable, nor inconstant.

Dering.

Hitherto Maister Harding can not deny his turning, now least it should preiudice his estimation, he thinketh good to commend it, true it is, he turneth well, that turneth for the best, it is better to returne, then to run alwayes euill, but whether you hauehave made this turne, or no, it must be tryed not by your worde, but by the truth of God. The Prophet Dauid doeth aske the question how one shoulde turne aright,Psal. 118.9.Ps 118:9 and doth aunswere him selfe, by taking héede vntounto Gods worde. Now I appeale to Maister Hardings conscience, what part the worde of God did worke in his turning, he maketh continuall crying out of the church, the church, but very déepe silence of the worde of God. Yet Christ saith, heauen and earth shal passe, before his word do passe. S. Paule saith: We may not beleue an Angell, that preacheth any other doctrine. S. Iames saith: It is the word, that can saue our soules. S. Peter saith: It is as sure, as the voice of God him selfe, that was herd from heauen, and what meane these men vnderunder a vaine title of the p. 102church, so to neglect it? Christ promised to be with his church vntill the latter end of the world,Math. 28.Matt 28 but his word is his presence, not mans inuentions, his Euangelies are our learning, not supersticious ceremonies. The dayes are now come, that we shall say no more,Ier. 3.16.Jer 3:16 the arke of the couenaunt of the Lord, but by Christ alone we must make our prayers, and by him alone offer vp the sacrifice of praise vntounto God, that is the fruit of our lippes which confesse his name. Therfore if you will make a good turne, you must turne to that church which turneth only vntounto him, and to the simplicity of his Gospell. But you hauehave put on the adulterous attire of straunge intercession, and clothed hir selfe with altares, and altare clothes, with Copes, vestimentes, Awbes, Tunicles, Curtaines, Sensors, Candlestickes, Crosses, and such other. You are not turned from errour to faith, but from the church of God, to the synagoge of the deuill. And for our owne defence with the prophet Dauid we make aunswere vntounto the blasphemers:Psal. 118.42Ps 118:42 Our trust is in the worde of God. After this Maister Harding findeth fault with to much constancye, and considering his owne changes, woulde hauehave it seme some commendation to turne vp, and downe a little. Then he bringeth in the examples of Arrius, and certaine heretickes, which in their owne opinion were founde to obstinate, and compareth Maister Iuell with them in wilfulnesse, and otherwise speaketh contumeously against him, and for all this, will be iudged by his Reioinder. Nowe consider good Reader what maner of wryting this is. In long talke before he required that his doings might be wayed, and doubted not, but Maister Iuell should be founde the more vnconstant. Then fearing that he coulde not colour the great difference betwen them, excuseth his own turning, as though he had done well. Now that his writings might be as vnconstant, as his lyfe hath ben, he ouerthroweth quite his first accusation, and confesseth that Maister Iuell hath ben as obstinate, as euer was Arrius, or any hereticke, which had rather p. 103dye, then in any point to seme to relent. If this be true, wher is all that a doe which was made about the sixe articles, and I know not about what subscription? O M. Harding, oportet mendacem esse memorem, it behoueth a lyer to be mindfull. GiueGive Lord vnderstanding, and M. Hardings writings shall néede no aunswere, one leafe doth confute an other. Concerning these examples, which he vseth, it appeareth, that as in these tragedies he hath set apart al honesty, so in mani places he hath more shew, than learning. How can this saying agrée with it selfe, some had leuer suffer death, then to séeme at any time to hauehave ben out of the way, they vse examples of Arius, Macedonius, Nestorius, Eutyches. Sozom. lib. 2 cap. 21. Theod. lib. 1. cap. 34.Did not diuers Arians subscribe in the Councell of Nice, and made open protestation, that Arrius held the same fayth, which the Councell set out? And did not Arrius himselfe make the same profession, both in woord, and writing vntounto Constantinus the Emperour, after his return vntounto Constantinople?Toerat. lib. … cap. 25. Did not Macedonius so vse the matter, with Alexander B. of Constantinople, that when he dyed, he commended him to be his successour, and after set vp by the Arrians, and deposed by the Emperour,Sozo. lib. 4. cap. 27. dyd he not quite forsake his Arrian heresie? Did not Eutyches, cited to the Councell of Constantinople, send one in his roome to subscribe to the fayth of the Ephesine, and Nicene Councels? Did not Nestorius cry in the open councell at Ephesus, Dicatur Maria Deipara, & cesset haec molestia, let Marye be called the Mother of God, and let this trouble cease? Thys I hauehave shewed, that it might appeare, howe fitlie M. Harding doth apply hys examples. Now hys writings standing thus, sometime without learning, often ill agréeing, and most commonly wythout honestie, what skilleth it in this behalfe, if the Reioynder sit in iudgement? They say, a scabbie horse is good ynough for a scaule Squire.

Harding.

¶I say not onelyonly as you do in your preface, but in this Reioynder p. 104I do manifestly proue in due place, some Doctours by you to be vntruly alleadged, some corruptly translated, some peruersly expounded, some guilefullye applyed, their woo…des sometimes abbridged, sometymes enlarged, sometimes altered, sometimes dissembled. With these false sleightes you burthen me in word, & with the same here I hauehave charged you in dede. Sundry auncient fathers, which you deny, by good authority I hauehave auouched. Your own childish argumēts, falsly, and fondly by your selfe deuised, and fathered vponupon me, I hauehave wholy contemned, and so returned them vntounto you againe. For the .45. Vntruthes, which you pretend to hauehave noted in my aunswere touching your first Article, I hauehave returned vponupon you .225. noted in your Replie of the same Article. Those which you impute vntounto me, be now already partely, and maye shortly be iustified. And therfore proued not to be vntruthes at all. Yours you shall neuer iustifie. When you attempt it, you shall do it, but with a multiplication of infinite other vntruthes.

Dering.

Now M. Harding, as he is wittie, séeing it is not all golde which he hath made to glister, and fearing least hys colours might be rubbed away from his writing, vponupon good courage sayth boldly, he hath spoken nothing, which he will not prooue in his Reioynder. Much after such a sorte began Cyclicus the Poet, fortunam priami ca…abo, & nobile bellum, and when Cyclicus hath made an ende of his Iliades, M. Harding shall be as good as his woord. He chargeth M. Iuel with corrupting the fathers, yet in all this Reioynder, as appeareth by hys vntruthes, he is not able to conuince one authoritie of falsehood. He sayth, there is no proofe in M. Iuels Preface, yet in his own Epistle, here is neither truth, nor honestie. The childish arguments he will passe ouer with silence. So he doth in déede many of them, and a great péece of thys first article beside. Where no shew of aunswere may be had, silence can do p. 105least harme. But Maister Harding, though he saye it, yet perhaps will not sticke much in this. Upon entreaty he will yéelde vntounto vsus true allegations of the Doctours, and will sticke to take vntounto him his Arguments againe, but touching the .44. vntruthes, in that he will neuer yéeld. They are all iustified, and shall be iustified, and .225. returned vponupon Maister Iuell, which shall neuer be aunswered, and if we but attempt it, we shall but multeply moe Untruthes. But softe, good Reader, be not a fearde of vanity. I remember a certaine Lacedemonian, that when he sawe one tying togither longe circumstaunces of speach: Now I make God a vowe sayde he, this is a hardy man, that when he hath no reason, yet can roll his tongue so handsomely, and what other is this of M. Hardings, but tongue rolling his owne Untruthes, he saith are all iustified. Yet Maister Stapleton confesseth that in one place Maister Harding was ouerséene. I hauehave returned saith he 225. vntruthes, yet he hath turned some one of thē .7. times. If he had serued them so all, he had returned aboue fiftene hundred, and these, as he saith, can not be aunswered without multiplying of mo vntruthes. How true this is let the reader iudge. Sure for my part, if it be so, I will reuoke that I hauehave written. But this I must forewarne them, I doe not take it for vntrue, to say their Pope is Antichrist, and their Masse Idolatrous, and their church a sinagogue of iniquitye. If otherwise I make any vntruth▪ either in misconstring the worde of God, or falsifying other mens authoritye, by Gods grace, when I shall vnderstande it, I will reuoke it, but my conscience is yet cleare, I hauehave written nothing deceitfully.

Harding.

¶Sith it is thus, the best aduise I can giuegive you, is first, to consider better of these matters, and to call to your minde, what hath moued you to enter so farre. Next, how faithfully you hauehave delt in the same. Then what p. 106rewarde you may looke for in the ende.

Dering.

Of this wicked Epistle gentle reader thou art now come to the peroration, although it be long, and odious, as the maner of olde buyldinges is to hauehave wide ruinous kitchins: yet thou shalt do well to reade it, to learne to take héede of such manner doing, and although the filthy synckes be somewhat lothsome at the first, yet by the grace of God the sauor shall not infect thée. First saith he, what moued you to enter so farre. Doublesse Maister Harding the frée mercy of God the father, poured vponupon him through Iesus Christ, & this was the efficient cause. His ende was to glorifie God, that God might glorifie him againe,1. Sam. for his faithfull dealing. It hath ben such as flesh, and bloude coulde suffer. That which is wanting shall be accounted vntounto him by the merit of his sauiour Iesus Christ. The rewarde that he looketh for, is not of merite, but of grace, and it is the inheritaunce of that kingdome which was the porcion of Gods chosen, ordeined from y^e beginning. Now these beginnings being thus, Maister Hardings further running can be but hastening to new lyes, what so euer he shall further say of Maister Iuells profession. These other vngodly woords, y^t came after, full of much bitternesse, are not worthy aunswere. EueryEvery one may inuent them, that delighteth in euill speaking, and they can not cary any good man to mistrust.

Harding.

¶If this councell can not sincke into you, if neither this, nor any other the like aduise shall take place with you: what is my parte to do, but to leaue you to your selfe, and to the will of God?

Dering.

After sundry waies atempted, how Maister Harding might bring our doinges into suspition, at the last very modestlye he doth leaue vsus vntounto God, but by and by he breaketh out againe, p. 107he cannot suppresse his coler, and for a full proofe that all his fayer speaking is hipocrisy, he raueth streight so out of measure, that he doth excéede him selfe, not prouing anye thing, but as if his worde were Apollos oracle, he presumeth with out controlle to speake what he listeth, and goeth away so fast in his frothy matter, that contrary to his woonted cunning he forgetteth how to speake, for after a great heape of words, of which eueryevery one according to his number doth specifie a new vntruth, he writeth thus. Leaue to do as not only through your whole Replye, but also through your first article you hauehave done. Who euer spake after this maner? what writer? what scholer? what childe? when foreign after foreign doth signifie nothing. This phrase of Maister Hardings shal be allowable, but that surely he shall not onelye neuer proue, but also not before he set out his next booke. After this vncomelye speaking he bringeth in very absurd matter, and chargeth Maister Iuell, bicause he bolstreth vp his Religion with the authorities of late wryters. Yet where Maister Harding bringeth one sentence out of the olde fathers, giuegive me leaue in a doutfull matter to vse one of Maister Hardings gesses, Maister Iuell, I thinke bringeth twenty. But what forceth he to speake, that speaketh, he knoweth not what?

Harding.

¶If you intend to write against any of our Treatises, cul not out our sayings forth of a whole heape, as your maner is, leauing what toueheth the point in controuersie, and taking parte that being put alone and besides the rest, semeth to hauehave lesse force.

Dering.

It were hard to finde such an other Caligula, that so approueth this foreign a shamlesse behauiour in him selfe. He chargeth Maister Iuel with culling out of sentences who layeth forth his whole aunswere word for worde, and findeth no fault with him selfe, that skippeth at aduentures, sometime p. 108two leaues at once, and aunswereth not a worde. Againe, about this he vseth a heap of vaine words, as though in much bibble babble all controuersy were decyded. This maner of wryting doeth make me remember a certaine Lacedomian, which tooke a nightingale, and pulling of hir fethers, when he saw hir little body, thou art euen a voice saide he, and nothing else, and surely Maister Harding is but a nightingale take away his fethers, that is his gaye wordes, and there is nothing but a little withered carcase vnderneth. He accuseth Maister Iuell of a childish wit, but with how childish a iudgement, who séeth not? I will make no comparison of the man, he hath nothing, which he hath not receiued, if any man doe not thinke hym as well learned as anye Englishe Louanist, if Apollo might awarde him his hyre, he shoulde hauehave Midas eares. It forceth not what correction Maister Harding vseth to discredite his Replie. All the learned men in Englād will seale it with their iudgement, y^t it sheweth a rare replier. He talketh of burning it, and no doubt him selfe woulde cary a fagot to helpe make the fyre, but it is cast in a good moulde and shall kéepe his fashion, notwithstanding this rable of new carpenters that woulde disfigure it.

Harding.

¶Remember Maister Iewel, it is the cause of God, you would seme to treate. God hath no nede of your Lyes. Leaue wrangling, ieasting, scorning, mocking, scoffing. Contend not about wordes, and syllables, forsaking the matter. Obscure not the truth with vaine Rethorique, ouerwhelme it not with your abundance of woordes. Bring not confusion to the matter, when it is cleare of it selfe, make not shew of victorie, where you are least able to answere. Make not your reader to laugh, where he would be taught. Affect not so much to be pleasant, seeke rather to be a true handler of Gods causes. Put not the hope of your victory in the coldenesse of your Aduersary, but in the truth of the matter. Refuse not p. 109to stand to their iudgemēt alleadged against you, whose witnesse you bring for you. Allow not a writer in one place, condemning him in an other place.

Dering.

Nowe sure if Mayster Harding were a boy in the Grammer schoole for this pretie tale he deserued to go to play. I hauehave not séene one in copia verborum varie a sentence more handsomly. And how shall all this be aunswered? Euen as Cleomenes aunswered the Ambassadours from Samos, to such a long oration of so little purpose, the whole hangeth so loosely, that the beginning I can not remember, and therefore I vnderstand not the middest, but such things as are in the end are altogither disalowed. For Mayster harding sayth in the ende, he is a colde aduersary, if he meane colde in religion, it may be well graunted, if otherwise colde, it may not be alowed, looke what heate of wordes eyther will, or abilitie can vtter, in his Epistle, and Reioynder, there is nothing wanting.

Hardyng.

¶If you wil vse the testimonie of the Scholemen, and Canonists, consider it to bee reason, that you subscribe to their fayth. It is well knowne vntounto you, they be catholike in doctrine, as whome therefore you account for Papistes. Yet who euer alleaged them so thicke as you hauehave done, though to no purpose, in your Replie? It seemeth you were desirous to shew all your wares at one market. Vse their testimonies, and beleue them. If you beleue them not, what meane you to vse them?

Dering.

Now Maister Hard. hath gone well forward in vntruthes, as the violence of his nature draweth him, he falleth into a paradoxe. If you vse a mans authoritie (sayth he) it is reason you subscribe vntounto his religion. What reason is there in these words? or who would speake thus, that knew what to speake well? Doth not Mayster Harding meane to blind the eyes of p. 110the simple, when he will aduenture to speake such monsters? or hath he not little to say,Act. 9.Acts 9 where he taketh hold of this? Christ vsed the testimonie of the Scribes, and Phariseis, of Pindarus an Ethnike Poet. S. Paule of Epimenides. Yet it is no reason Christ should subscribe to y^e Iewish religion, Paule should become an Ethnike, I néede not make this long by examples, they are in maner infinite eueryevery where to be founde. But bicause Mayster Harding maketh this so straunge, I must put him in mind of a saying that Tullie vseth against Verres: Tuum testimonium, Diuin in ver.quod in aliena releue esset, id in tua, quoniam contra te est, grauissimū debet esse. The witnesse which in an other mans matter were little worth, yet in thine own, bicause it is agaynst thy selfe, it must be of great authoritie. Now surely this saying of Mayster Harding is verye grosse. But yet ludus, & iocus, prae vt huius rabies quae dabit. It is nothing, if you compare it with that which followeth. He biddeth Mayster Iewell leaue off to fill his readers eares with vaine,Plut. Phil. 2.Phil 2 & false fables. Now Lucullus may hauehave leaue to speake like Cato. & Antonie to accuse Tullie, for placing shakebucklers in the Capitoll. Gracchus may speake of sedicion, and Verres may reproue men of theft. Maister Harding doth find fault with fables. I must aunswere as Tullie doth: O miserū siue haec tibi nota non sunt, sine sunt, qui apud tales viros tam impudenter loquare, O wretched man whither he know it, or know it not, that speaketh so shamelesly vntounto his readers. Mayster Iuell hath not one tale to proue any article. Maister Harding and his companions hauehave aboue one hundred thousand to proue their religion, and howe could it be otherwise, when the Legend it selfe, whence they fet their diuinity is nothing but lyes. After this, bicause Mayster Harding can espy neuer a fable auouched by Mayster Iuell, he thinketh good to charge him with that, he sayth not, wherby such as will beleue him on his word, may think at the least he hath brought somwhat for himselfe, and vponupon some such consideration this he telleth p. 111foorth his tale.

Hardyng.

¶Where as you make so much adoe with me for one vision of S. Basile, which neuerthelesse is reported by men of good credite, remember your owne selfe are not able so well to iustifie youre owne fables, which you tell at the beginning, as that Pope Gregorie, whom you had rather call Hildebrand, was a Necromancer, and a Sorcerer. that Emperor Henry was poysoned in the Communion bread, that Pope Victor was poysoned in the Chalice.

Dering.

Here, Christian reader, thou hast foure lyes in foure lines. First sayth he, Mayster Iuell findeth much fault with me for one fable, that is one lye, for Mayster Harding hath manye fables, one out of Abdias. diuis. 5. an other oute of Leontius. diuis. 32. the thirde out of Amphilochius, diui. 33. beside all the allegations out of other petie Doctours. This is then one vntruth, forasmuch as M. Hardings words seme to acknowledge but one fable. The second lye is, that it is reported by men of good créedite, and that is not so. Vincentius, and Antonius are of little better credite in their histories, then Arthur of little Brittaine. I hauehave not numbred their lyes, but sure it is, neyther of them hauehave so fewe as a thousande. For triall, read the bookes, and if thou go ten lines without a lye in Antonius, thou must light vponupon the couer, and in Vincentius thou shalt not séeke much further. These Authors then are not of good credit. The thirde lie is, that maister Iuell is not so well able to iustifie the histories of Victor, Henrie, and Hildibrand. For he can hardly alleage any of lesse credite then Vencentius & Antonius. But let the defence of the Apologie be a triall of this matter. The fourth lie is, that these fables are Mayster Iuels owne. For he doth not so much as once say they be true, but onelyonly writeth that this it is reported, and he alleageth Hermannus p. 112contractus, neyther in that place doth Mayster Iuell care whether they be true, or no. But Mayster Hardings tale of Amphilochus is soothly auouched, set out with many circumstances, and made a solemne proufe of his priuate Masse. Yet I hauehave heard many better tales tolde by olde women of Robin goodfellow. Then the warest councell that I can giuegive him, is, if he will further his Masse, let him speake no more of fables. The residue of this Epistle, which is very little, is concerning certaine vntruthes, which are aunswered in theyr places, the maner and forme of wryting is still like it selfe, full of vncomely wordes against the Replie. At the last he concludeth thus.

Harding.

¶ If men be not vtterlye blinde, and as I may say, so bewitched with the spirit of errour, and lying, as to beleue what soeuer you say, be it true, be it false: I doubt not but after they shal hauehave read my Reioynder, and what is written by others here of late, in their iudgement your Replie shall finde small credite. Nowe to ende. If you feare not God, to whome of so many vntruthes you shall giuegive account, yet reuerence man, of whose wordly estimation you depende. For my parte, I shall pray, that eyther God moue your hart to repent, and amend, or that he giuegive the people grace not to beleue you.

Dering.

It is true which our Sauiour Christ hath sayde, the tyme should come, when if it were possible, the very elect should bée deceyued. For who can sée these bolde asseuerations, which M. Harding vseth, and the great assuraunce he pretendeth for his Religion, and would not thinke, that the worde of God were his warrant. But be not deceyued. Such confidence is not straunge, neyther toward God, nor man. Cossutian in no wise would feare Caesar. Esay. 36.10.Isa 36:10And Rabsaketh the Capitaine of proude Senacharib, sayd the Lord …ad him come to destroy Ierusalem, p. 113the Grecians hauehave a prouerbe foreign, some mannes mynde maye as hardlye bée pearced as A…ax Buckler, and the Scribes said,Iohn. 9.29.John 9:29 we know that God spake with Moises, but this man, we know not, what he is. But Theog…s sayth foreign by foolysh perswasion I am vndone. And oure Sauiour Christ. Euen Moyses, Iohn. 5.45.John 5:45in whome you trust, he shall accuse you. So that if Mayster Harding had this confidence, he woulde séeme to hauehave, yet had he not the truth. But euen as the Prophete sayde,Zach. 7.12.Zech 7:12 we myght saye of hym, posuit vt Adamantem cor suum, he hath made hys heart euen as the Adamant stone.Apo. 5.15. But his vayne assuraunce shall bée as the dust, that is blowne away with the wynde. Thoughe he saye, peace, peace, yet there shall be no peace.Ier. 6.14. Ier. 7.4.Jer 6:14Jer 7:4 Though he cry, the Church, the Church, yet their wicked Sinagog is not the Church. The prowde Citie did say, I am, and none else. Yet was shee sinne, & iniquitie, and nothing else.Esa. 47.8.Isa 47:8 The Prophetes sayde swoorde, and famine shall not be in thys land. Yet by swoorde,Ier. 14.15.Jer 14:15 and famine those Prophets were consumed. Sith then it is so, that the wicked may hauehave this vaine trust, let vsus not bée deceyued with eyther bolde, or entysing woordes. Let vsus not be wyse in our owne conceyte, let vsus lay no foundation of our fayth, other then is alreadye layd, but let vsus looke after Chryst Iesu, and learne what is hys wyll, let vsus searche in his holye woorde, and séeke what is our wisedome. So shall neyther the spirite of errour violentlye drawe vsus captiues, nor vayne imaginations leade vsus away. Wee shall be followers of Iesu Christ the righteous, and wee shall walke as they doe, that hauehave hym for theyr example, we shall care for those thinges, that are aboue, and wée shall hauehave our conuersation in heauen, from whence also we looke for a Sauiour, euen the Lorde Iesu Christ, who shall make our vyle bodye, that it may be fashioned lyke vntounto his glorious bodye, which tyme for his mercye sake he vouchsafe to p. 114hasten, who of his mercy hath ordeyned vsus vntounto that kindgome, where he lyueth one God, and thrée persons, the father, the sonne, and the holye ghost, to whome bée all honour, and glorye, worlde without ende. Amen.