A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths, Part 2 (4 of 5)

A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths · Part 2 (4 of 5)

p. 129The B. of Saris.

The .26. Diuision. S. Augustine saith, the people receiued eueryevery day.

Harding.

The .133. vntruthe. He saith not so.

Dering.

Note this is all one vntruthe with the .83. and .145. These are S. Augustines words:De sermone. in mōte. lib. 2 cap. 12. the daily bread may be taken for the sacrifice of Christes body, which we receiue eueryevery day. Maister Harding saith, he ment this of himselfe only, and of other priests, and he saith it only, and doeth not proue it, and vponupon credite of his owne words, doth quote an vntruthe. With like facilitie I could make answer it were not vntrue, but words without reason I will leaue vntounto maister Harding, to proue that S. Augustine ment the daily vse of their open Churche, and that some did euermore receiue, it may appeare, as we reade in the Acts, that those, which came vntounto the Church of Christ, continued daily in breaking of bread, and prayers,Act. 2.42.Acts 2:42 by breaking of bread, meaning the Communion. And in an other p. 130place, when the Disciples came together, they brake breade, and Paule preached.Act. 20.7.Acts 20:7 And we reade in the .1. to the Corinthians the .11. Chapter. When they came together, they did eate the Lords supper. Héereby it appeareth, that in the Apostles time, this daily receiuing was in vse, though of Massing for the quicke, and deade, of shutting the bread in a boxe, of worshipping it, of carying about, there be not one worde immediatly after. &c.De cor. mili. About .200. yeares after this, Tertullian wryteth Eucharistia sacramētum. &c. & iam antelucanis sumimus temporibus. Lib. 1. ad vxorē. & Basil. ep. adcler. noe o coes. & ephrē in ser. ad monach, Cyp. 1. ep. 2.We receiue the Eucharist euer before day. And in an other place, thy husband shall not know, what thou tastest secretely before other meates. By this it appeareth, the Christians did vsually receiue eueryevery morning. S. Cyprian about 50. yeares after, wryteth. How shall we make them méete for the cuppe of martyrdom, if first, we do not giuegive vntounto them the cup of the Lords bloud, noting, that in that great persecution, they receiued daily in the morning. Againe, he wryteth. Grauior nūc, & ferocior pugna imminet, ad quam fide incorrupta, & virtute robusta, Lib. 4. ep. 6.parare se debent milites Christi. And it foloweth. Considering therefore they daily receiue the cup of the bloud of Christ, they also for Christ may shed their bloud. He saith further: we require that this bread may be giuen vsus daily, least we, that are in Christ, & Eucharistiam quotidie ad cibum salutis accipimus, Serm. 6. de orat. domini.and daily receiue the Eucharist, which is the meate of our saluation, should be by any great offence, seperated from Christ. Thus it appeareth in plaine wordes, that in Cyprians time, they receiued daily. The like appeareth by Eusebius lib. 1. de demonst. Euangelica, cap. 10. Diuers other places may be brought, which all proue M. Hardings aunswer to be vaine, and doe wel expound the meaning of S. Augustine. Lib. 26. in. 8 cap. Math. Chrysost. ad heb. ho. 17. Aug Ep. 23.Chrysostome saith, semper communicabant, they did alwayes Communicate. And maister Harding doeth alleage bothe him and Augustine himselfe for proofe of the daily sacrifice. Now wher they say, that we offer daily, and yet confute sufficiently this newe fansied transubstantiation, it is p. 131plaine they ment of this daily Communion, and of the often vse of it, maister Hardings Ignatius in like manner wryteth, when this is done continually,Ad ephesios. the powers of Sathan are driuen away. These, and diuers suche proofes may be had out of Ierome, Ambrose, Iustine, Irenaeus, and other many, for this daily receiuing, and therfore these vntruthes must néedes be little worthe, that are so plentifully challenged, and may so easily be answeared. But whose aucthoritie should I rather vse in this case, than maister Hardings owne Doctors, they wryte it often, and teache very plainly, that in the primatiue Church, they receiued daily. Thomas Aquinas writeth thus: In the primatiue church, when the people were very deuout in the Christian faith, it was decréed, vt fideles quotidie communicarent, that the faithfull people should receiue daily. Durandus saith in the primatiue Church, omnes fideles quotidie communicabant, all the faithfull receiued daily.Lib. 4. ca. 55 Loe héere are maister Hardings owne Doctors, which doe sufficiently answere his vntruth. Here by the way of this one thing, I must moreouer warne the good Christian reader, that M. Harding is not able to shewe any one sufficient proofe, whereby it may appeare, that the Churche in any place within .CCC. yeares after Christ, did appoint any one day, especially for that purpose, as their confederacie at Trident, hauehave of late straightly charged. It appeareth by S. Luke, they met daily,Act. 2.5.Acts 2:5 and it appeareth by Paule to the Ephesians, y^t they had their méetings both day, and night, & in this vse they cōfirmed their doctrine, which Paule teacheth the Colossians. Let no man condemne you in meat, and drinke, nor in respect of an holy day,Col. 2.16.Col 2:16 or of the newe Moone, or of the Sabbothe dayes. And no doubt to take away this popish superstitiō of dayes, & times, it was gods good wil, and pleasure then so to ordaine it. And for a ful proofe that the Churches vsed some saturday, some sunday, it is well shewed by that hot contention, that was raised by Victor, & Anicetus, against y^e gréeke church. After y^e Apostles time about the yeare of our Lord .115. vnderunder y^e Emperor Traiane, it appeareth that p. 132the Christians vsuall méeting, was in the mornings, as is shewed by Plinie, in an epistle written to the Emperoure of the same matter. After this .30. or .40. yeare, Iustinus doeth recorde, that in his time they vsed the sonday, and any other day when there was baptizing of children. After this it is declared by Origen, that the Christians of his time did not méete only on sundayes,In gen. ho. 10 In num. ho. 2 and holidayes, but on other dayes also. And Sozomene séemeth to deny of the Romaine Church, that they had any meetings on the Saboth day, as all other Churches had.Lib. 7. ca. 19 De prepar. Euang. lib. 1. cap, 3. Ath. lib. de interp. Psal. Eusebius saith, quotidie ferme, ad percipiendam disciplinam christi constuunt, almost eueryevery day they came to hear the doctrine of Christ. Athanasius nameth expresly these dayes, sabbatum, diem dominicum, secundum sabbati, parasceuen, & quartum sabbati. Now if it can not be proued, that any one Church made a special obseruation of the sunday, but that on other dayes also, they vsed like seruice vntounto god, on the other parte séeing the testimonies are so plaine, and many: what meaneth maister Harding to make this any vntruthe? But what dareth he not doe, to make vp his number, that affirmeth this one vntruthe fiue times? Now by the way, least I shold séeme to speake against the vse of the sunday, I say and professe, that we cā not vse it too reuerently. Anathasius saith, that the sabboth of the Iewes,Hom. de semente. was by Christ turned into our sunday, but whether that were so, or no, it resteth vponupon Athasius aucthoritie, it may be well thought that it is true, Christ will hauehave vsus gather together in his name. And S. Iohn calleth it the Lords day,Apo. 1.10. Act. 20.7. 1. Cor. 16.1.Acts 20:71 Cor 16:1 S. Luke and S Paule the first day of the weke, in which the Apostles assembled the people, therfore thou art bound to giuegive all obedience and holinesse vntounto the Lorde on that day. But take héede now thou deceiue not thy self. Looke not after any licentiousnesse on the munday, thinke not that God more accompteth of one day, than other. As on sunday thou commest into the congregation, and shewest thy selfe thankfull vntounto the Lord for his benefites, so on eueryevery day thou must shew thy selfe thankfull, and shew the same obedience p. 133in testimony of thy conscience, which on the sunday thou shewest in open vsage, and thus thou shalt kéepe holy the sabboth day.

The B. of Saris.

S. Ambrose saith eueryevery weeke, we must celebrate the oblation, althoughe not eueryevery day vntounto straungers, yet vntounto the inhabitants at least twise a weeke.

Harding.

The .134. vntruthe. This place is altogether falsified.

Dering.

This vntruthe may be hardly verified, if the place be altogether falsified. But maister Harding dothe so often speake vntruely, that now we may not beleue him w^tout good proofe. Let vsus sée then what he saith. S. Ambrose: In. 1. ad Tim. cap. 3.Omni hebdomada offerendum est, etiam si non quotidie peregrinis, incolis tamen vel bis in hebdomada. These words M. Iuel dothe Englishe, as before appeareth. This translation saith maister Harding, is altogether false. But why saith he so? Let him bar distinctions, and proue it if he can. Undoubtedly if snow be not black, this interpretation is true, but why dothe maister Harding finde fault wiih it? Thus he saith, offerre peregrinis is to offer for straungers, not to straungers, and why is it so? forsoothe by this rule, all manner of verbes put acquisitiuely, that is to say, with this signe for after them, wil hauehave a datiue case,Reioinder. Fol. 201. it might hauehave pleased him to hauehave alleaged his rule truely, then it should hauehave bene thus, hauing this signe to or for, after them, so notwithstanding this rule, yet the interpretation had bene good, but graunt the rule, what a reason is this, all verbes that hauehave this signe, for, after them, require a datiue case, Ergo, offerre peregrinis, is to offer for straungers. He might as well conclude, Ergo, loquor tibi, is to speake for thée, or dare tibi to giuegive it for thée. But M. Harding, why would p. 234not this rule hauehave serued héere, verbes compounded with these propositions, prae, con, sub, ob, in and inter, will hauehave a datiue case. Well may we hauehave some opinion of our Louanists English, but sure their Logicke, and their Latine is but very base. M. Dorman alleaging in his boke, this text of S. Iohn. Diabolus est mendax, & pater eius, doth English it thus, the diuel is a lier, and so was his father before him. Was he wel in his wit? or was he yet a dreaming? or is his Diuinitie so slender, that he knoweth not, who is the Deuils father? Sure ignorance may not excuse a man, that speaketh blasphemie, the Deuil hath no father, only God created him an Angell. Erasmus fearing such sléeping Diuines, doth turne it thus, & eius rei pater, and father of that thing. If M. Dorman had consulted with him, and not so sodenly become of a iangling lawyer, an vngodly Diuine, he wold hauehave written more aduisedly, but (as hath bene héeretofore aptly obiected to him) he gate vponupon the bridge, and was made a bacheler, and so by muche haste ouershot himselfe, muche like as maister Harding doth héere, who Englisheth offerre peregrinis, to offer for straungers. Alowe this for good Latine, and his distinctions for good reason, and then goe yoke Foxes, and milke hée Goates, his vntruthe shall rise at his owne pleasure.

The B. of Saris.

The .28. Diuision. Here Master Harding notably, betrayeth him selfe, laying forth for a countenaunce, a fiue of Chrysostoms words, and the same nothing to the matter, hewing and mangling them, as he listeth best.

Harding.

The .135. vntruthe. Those words be to the matter.

The .136. vntruthe. I mangle them not.

Dering.

What M. Harding meaneth by this vntruth, I know not, vnlesse it be, as M. Iuel saith, notably to betray himselfe. His p. 135purpose is to proue priuate Masse, as all men doe know, but these words do not proue it, as he himself confesseth, Reioind. fol. 206. the conclusion of these is plaine, therfore these words are not to the purpose. Neither shal this other vntruth, néede any long answer. He can do little y^t cannot say nay. M. Iuels Replie doth wel, & sufficiently proue it. M. Hardings gainsaying is not sufficient for an vntruthe. Read the Replie. Fo. 65.

The B. of Saris.

Chrysostome saith this sacrifice is but one, bicause it hath relation vntounto that one sacrifice of Christ.

Harding.

The .137. vntruthe. He rendreth no suche cause.

Dering.

Bicause M. Hard. cā not blame the allegation, he findeth fault w^t M. Iuels meaning, and saith S. Chrysostom giueth no such cause. But whether he giueth any such or no, not M. Hardīgs vnderstāding, but Chrysostoms words, must be the iudge:Ad heb. ho. 17. thus he writeth: Quo modo vna est hostia & non multae? Quia semel oblata est, oblata est in sancta sāctorū. Hoc autē sacrificiū exemplar est illius. How is it one oblation & not many? He answereth, bicause it was once offred, it was offred into y^e holy place but this sacrifice is an example of that. These are his very words, & héere he speaketh plain, the cause why we sacrificing, or cōmunicating in sundry places, hauehave but one sacrifice, or cō munion, is bicause our sacrifice is an exāple of y^e one sacrifice of Christ. If M. Harding can find any other vnderstanding of these words, then sure his maner of vnderstāding, is to make words sound, what him list. But vnderstād he how, and what he wil, Chrysostoms words are plaine. Ther are many places in the olde doctors, which teach the very same, but it is néedelesse to reherse them, when our sauior Christ saith: Do this in my remembrāce. Except M. Harding wil hauehave no relation betwene the thing, and the remembrāce of the thing, what meaneth he to make this vntruthe?

p. 236The B. of Saris.

Chrisostome saith, this sacrifice is an example of that.

Harding.

The .138. vntruthe. Chrysostome saith not so, that this is an example of that, this place is fowly corrupt.

Dering.

In the 134. vntruth master Harding saide this is all to gether falsified, in this he saith, it is fowly corrupt. But y^e falshod of that hath appeared to be so little, that this false reporte of corruption can hauehave no great credit, and no dout this vntruth vppon sufficient triall shall apeare a verie wrangling.Ad Heb. ho. 17. Chrisostomes own words are these, hoc autem sacrificium examplar est illius. Reade the place. These wordes as I think are thus muche in Englishe. But this sacrifice is an example of that. Not so saith master Harding, this place is fouly corrupt. Peraduenture héere is some verbe put acquisitiuely, as in the .134. vntruthe. If it be so, héere may be straunge Latine, but whether there be, or no, gessing is not necessary where there may be had other good proofe. Let vsus heare why this place is corrupt?Reioinder. Fol. 207. What saith M. Harding? Thus he saith. It is exemplar, a samplar or patern, of that, I graunt. Mark good reader, what maister Harding graunteth. And sée whether maister Iuel doe say any more. If he doe not, how are the same words true, when maister Harding speaketh them, and not true, when maister Iuel speaketh them? vnlesse as we had of late a distinction of not bread, and no bread, so nowe we hauehave an other betwéene an example, & a sampler? But how so euer it is without example or, sampler, he maketh mo distinctions, and giueth suche a sampler of singular impudence, that no mā that feareth God, wil take example by him.

The B. of Sarisb.

Gracian sheweth that the decretall epistles hauehave bene doubted p. 137of among the learned.

Harding.

The .139. vntruthe. Gracian shevveth no such thing.

Dering.

Gracians wordes are these. De Epistolis decretalibus quaeritur, an vim authoritatis habeant, of the decretall Epistles, there is doubt, whether they hauehave authoritie. How then is this an vntruth? The word saith M. Harding, that Gracian doth vse, is quaeritur, not dubitatur. The question is moued, not it is doubted, Offerre peregrinis, to offer for straungers is very good latine, where this is any reason. What meaneth this man, doeth he so fede his affectioned vaine, that he spareth not to discredit his owne learning? that he feareth not to blot his owne honestie? Fye vponupon such fāsies. Quaeritur is a latine word, dubitatur is very barbarous. But such as vse them both, who knoweth not, y^t it is cōmon to them all, to say sometime quaeritur, sometime dubitatur, meaning by either word, there is doubt moued, & the Gréeke phrase foreign is cōmonly translated. Sed quaerat aliquis. But one wil aske, or dout. The latines do al vse it. Si quaeris if you doubt. In his primis naturalibus voluptas insit, nec ne, magna quaestio est. In these first naturall abilities, whether there be any pleasure, or no, there is no great doubt. Romani augures in magna quaestione habent, The Romain Augurs do much dout, what the bird Sanqualis is. So immensa quaestio, an infinite doubt, perdifficilis, et perobscura quaestio, a verie difficult, and obscure doubt, and such one as this of M. Hardings is, redicula quaestio a folish doubt. The barbarous writers, such as Gracian is, and the other rable of M. Hardings friends, they want cōmonly both good words, and godly matter, and they say sometime dubitatur, but to be short, there is neither question, nor doubt, but this vntruthe is very childish. But what meaneth M. Harding to p. 138stand thus in defence of these decretall epistles? He onelyonly can bring for them a litle testimonie of Leo, and Gelasius. The epistles by no meanes can commende them selues. Reade the Replie, thou shalt sée them sufficientlie reproued. But reade the Epistles, and thou shalt see them more reproued. The latine is so barbarous, that neyther gentile, nor Christian of that age, did euer wryte the like. The stile is so childish, it is farre vnméete, for the grauitie of those learned Bishoppes, whose names they beare, the metaphors are so grosse, as no countryman would vse the like. Among all other, this is one. Ostium circumstantiae eorum oribus imponere, Ephe. epi. 2.To put the dore of circumstaunce vponupon theyr mouthes. And what scholer would write this latine,In epist. Vrb. Eas inde abstrahere vbi traditae sunt, to take them thence, where they were layde. Promere vltionem, to reuenge, Exilium deportationis, for banishment,Pontia. epi. 1. pleniter, fully, Haec nobis bona operanda sunt, We must doe these good things, Inthronizare, to enstall, and porto, Luc. epist. 1.standeth them in verie good stead. Portare causas sacerdotum▪ Subleuare, et portare cadentes, portare persecutiones, euerie one a porter like phrase, and moderna tempora, and charitatiue, and abbatissa, and sanctae moniales. And I wote not what. There is nothing in them, doeth so excede, as ignoraunce. And where is the like title euer founde,Zeph. 1. et. 2. Calixt. 1. Steph 2. Dion. 1.Zeph 1 Archiepisc. rom. vrbis, and Archiepisc. cath. ecclesiae Romanae vrbis. And primates metropolitani, and fideles sancti Petri. Beside this, that poore stuffe, that they hauehave, doeth hang so yllfauouredly together, that Maister Harding him selfe, can make of it no sense. They alleage the scriptures without order, or fashion, and sometime they depraue them, the Sodomites say vntounto Lot, Gen. 19. Ana. epist. 1.Gen 19thou camest into vsus, as a straunger. Anterus sayth, that God spake it. In the first to Timothe the fift Chapter, where Paule hath vidua, Vrbanus hath anima: Christe saith,Ioh. 1. epist. 3.John 1 Cephas, is a stone, Anacletus sayth, it is caput, or principium, p. 139the head, or fountaine. And besides this, sundrie of those Epistles, hauehave worde for worde, the one, which an other hath. As Steph. 1. et. 2. And Fab. 2. Luc. 1. And Faelix .3. the Epistle of Gaius, & Leon .1. And how coulde this hauehave happened, if diuers men did write them. But what nede we seke arguments against them, looke vponupon theyr doctrine. Lucius forbiddeth mariage of Priestes,Dist. 18. ministri. and if a Priest go in vntounto his owne wife, he muste not communicate, he must not so much as bring the cup to the alter, they may not come within the church dores, not withstanding, Saint Paule sayth, to forbid mariage is the doctrine of diuells. Calixtus doeth forbid meates,Calix. epi. 1. and sayth, he that obserueth not the faste, foure times in a yeare, the same is a scismatike. Anterus and Zepherius teacheth, that we may not reprehende, accuse, iudge, or condemne a Bishoppe of Rome. Yet Saint Paule sayth: Let a Bishoppe be vnblamable, whereby it appeareth, he may be blamed, and againe he writeth: Receiue not an accusation against an elder vnderunder two▪ or three witnesses. Then by like, he will hauehave their faultes accused. They iangle much of the supremacie of the Bishoppe of Rome, Calixtus, and Lucius, doe seeme to say, that he can not erre. Yet Dauid saith, euerie man is a lier. Stephan saith,Steph. epi. 1. he deserueth great vengeance, that presumeth to touch the holy vestures. Yet Christ saith, that which is without a man defileth him not. Pontianus, doeth ende his first Epistle, with a clause of idolatrie, ascribing vntounto Peter, the opening of heauen gate. Vrbanus saith, that the sentence of a Bishop, is greatly to be feared, yea, though he … wrongfully, and so consequently, would mak… God, an vnrighteous Iudge, that should ratifie an vniust sentence. Such wicked doctrine these epistles doe conteine, so vnlearnedly they be written, so vnwisely the same words are fathered vponupon diuerse men, and, which is a sure token that they be coūterfet, they are not mencioned by any aūcient writers: p. 140Yet saith Maister Harding, these Epistles are authentical. But let him say so still.Dist. 19. Si Rom. As that saying is vntrue, so this vntruthe is impudent, where he saith that Gracian doeth not witnesse, that these Epistles hauehave ben doubted on.

The B. of Saris.

The decretall epistles manifestly depraue, and abuse the scriptures.

Harding.

The .140. vntruthe. They doe not so.

Dering.

Now M. Harding is in his biasse. He makes vntruthes at auenture, and for want of good proofe he falls to railing. This pelfe, saith he, may serue for your pulpit, when you want better stuffe. This to disproue y^e decretall epistles is to minister like. But thus to stand rayling, when one hath no reason, is to like a Louanist. More modest behauiour in so meane learning would better stand with honestie. This vntruth is sufficiently proued before.

The B. of Saris.

Anacletus commaundeth that all bishops once in the yeare, do visit the entrie of S. Peters church in Rome, which they call limina Petri.

Harding.

The .141. vntruth. He commaundeth no such thing, concerning Peters Church.

Dering.

This vntruth doeth rise vponupon these wordes, limina Petri whether they signified Peters church. For Maister Harding graunteth, that now they signifie the Church, but then p. 141they signified his graue. Here it were reason before we beleue him, he should tell vsus how long limina Petri did signifie the buriall place, and when it left his graue, and became the name of his church, who gaue it to the graue, and who toke it from it. Undouted proues must be had for so incredible a matter. It is a straunge case for things to lose their names, and if it be done, as sometime it chaunceth, it is by the cōsent of whole coūtries, regestred by diuers authors. If in this case we sée like authoritie, we will alow the better of M. Hardings saying. Graues as it may be thought, were neuer called so, churches had that name long before Peters time. Religiosa deorum limina, saith Virgill, the holy temples of the Gods, & Calixtus the Pope saith, Ecclesiastica limina, meaning the church. Hereby it appeareth that limina Petri was Peters Church.Chronol. V…. 2. Gen. 19.Gen 19 And Nauclerus writing of Totilas more than a thousand yeare agon saith, Cum ad beati Petri limina peruenisset, meaning when he came to Peters Church. Now let Maister Harding shew that it signified the graue, ere he require credit. Yet what if it did so? Is it not al one superstition to visit y^e graues of godly men, & to visit their temples? Is either of both commaunded by the Lord God? In this vntruth Maister Harding sheweth little matter against Maister Iuel, and lesse good diuinitie in him selfe.

The B. of Saris.

Fabianus writeth of the comming of Nouatus into Italie. And it is clere by S. Cyprian, and by Eusebius, that Nouatus came first into Italie in the time of Cornelius, which was next after him.

Harding.

The .142. vntruth. It is not cleare.

Dering.

To an Owles eyes the clere Sunne bringeth darkenesse, p. 142to one that will not vnderstand, there is no sentence plain. When God shal open Maister Hardings eies, he wil then sée better.Lib. 1. epi. 1. These are Cyprians wordes, vntounto Cornelius speaking of Nouatus. A te illinc prohibitū ab ecclesia, cum venisset &c. Of thee he was forbidden the Church, when he came &c. And it foloweth, with such spirite, as became a Bishoppe, whereby it appeareth, he was then also Bishop. What can be sayd more plaine? It foloweth further. Cum animaduertis…em te minis, atque terroribus eorum, qui venerant, esse commotum &c. Whē I perceiued, that thou weart moued with the feares, and threatnings, of those that came with him. Then belike Cornelius was there before. And Eusebius speaketh at the same time,Lib. 6. ca. 33. of Cornelius, and calleth him, Vrbis Romae Episcopus, the Bishop of the citie of Rome, and this also appeareth by Sozomenus, that the first conflict of Nouatus, Lib. 1. ca. 22 et. 23.was with Cornelius. Therefore Maister Harding might easely hauehave séene this, had not eyther his eies ben anointed, or he disposed to wrangle.

The B▪ of. Saris.

Neither S. Ierome, nor Gennadius, nor Damasus euer made any mention, either of such epistles, or of any such decrees.

Harding.

The .143. vntruth. Damasus maketh expresse mention of such decrees.

Dering.

This is an expresse vntruth, as many other are, which Maister Harding frameth. Damasus doeth speake of certaine decrées, which were made by these Popes, and that we may easely graunt, but that he mencioneth these epistles, or reciteth the decrées in those wordes, that is not shewed. And it may easely be, that he, who made these epistles, p. 143would gather some decrées, founde in other bookes. This is a small proufe, againste so many manifest arguments.

The B. of Saris.

By Soters decree, it is lawfull to say Masse, hauing onelyonly two in his companie.

Harding.

The .144. vntruth. This decree, speaketh not of companie present, but of two to make aunsvvere.

Dering.

There is belike some subtile distinction in this vntruth. For as the wordes lye, they are somewhat obscure. Of this I am sure, seing Maister Iuel saith, that Soters decrée requireth only the companie of two, and Maister Harding sayth, it requireth two to make aunswere: if it may any way be proued, that they that aunswere the Priest, be in his companie, then this vntruth is sone discharged. As touching Soters owne decrée, the words are plaine, that no man shall say Masse without two persōs, and to take away this cauill about two to aunswere, and to verifie Maister Iuels wordes, the title of the decrée is this.De cōsecratione dist. 1. hoc &c. Except he hauehave two presēt, let no Priest presume to say Masse. Now what néedeth this wrangling about the aunswering, if there be two present, they must nedes aunswere.

The B. of Saris.

S. Augustine, and S. Ierome, hauehave recouered that, that the people of Rome euen in their time, vsed to receiue the Communion together, eueryevery day.

Harding.

The .145. vntruth. Saint Augustine, and Saint Ierome doe not report so.

p. 144Dering.

Epist. 118. et 23. tract. in Ioh. 26. Ier. in apol. aduersus lo…ini.This vntruth hath ben made now thrée times by Maister Harding. It is the .83. the .133. & this the third. Augustine saith, some receiue eueryevery day, some certaine dayes. Ierome saith the like. Reade the place thou shalt not be deceiued. Read more of this vntruth in the places alleaged. The 83. & .133. vntruthes. & .155. vntruth.

The B. of Saris.

This word, solennia, which is here vsed, semeth to import a solemne companie, or resort of the people. And yet this Soter requiring to this action onelyonly the companie of thre persons, neuerthelesse calleth it Missarum solennia.

Harding.

The .146. vntruth. Solennia doeth not import a solemne companie.

Dering.

Yet it séemeth so Maister Harding to as wel learned, as you are. But this is your common fashion to belie Maister Iuels words, and then to say they be vntrue. Yt séemeth, saith he, to import a solemne cōpanie. What if it be not so? yet it séemeth so. But what if it doe import a great companie? What if it can not stande with your priuate Masse? Sure then is Soters decrée not worth alleaging, as your vntruthe is not worth the quoting. The reason, that you bring out of Tullie, were it not in your booke, yet by the value I would gesse it yours. Solemne, say you, doeth signifie sometime a custome, Ergo when it is attributed to an action, it doeth not import a companie. This is verie like one of your owne arguments, it hangeth so losely. For the antecedent is false, and the argument doth not follow. But why speaketh Maister Harding against his owne knowledge, p. 145he is assured it is not named in matters of religion, but it signifieth a great company of persons, and muche sumptuousnesse of the things so ill, may his priuate Masse be solennis. Mos solennis sacrarum saith Lucretius, the solempne, and sumptuous manner of the sacrifices. And Virgil calleth them arae solennes, many and costly altares, so pompae solennes, burials in solemne order, vota solennia, vowes made solemnly in the company of many, and Tullie, Solenne & statutum sacrificium, a sacrifice done sumptuously, and appointed times, and in M. Hardings Portuise, sacris solennijs iuncta sunt gaudia, to solemne seruice there is annexed ioyes. This aucthoritie is sufficient against master Harding. He wil say nothing I trow against his Portuise. If he wil, we will then charge him with the Popes owne aucthoritie. Innocentius tertius shewing the cause, why in their single holydayes they say not the Créede,Profestis. idē procul a fest. glossa. ib. Decret. de miss. celeb. consilium. nor Gloria in excelsis, as wel as they do on their double feasts, wryteth thus, vt inter commemorationem & solennitatem differentiam ostendatur, that there may be a difference betwéene a commemoration, and a solemnitie. Loe héere is Pope Innocent, flat against maister Harding, concerning the nature of the word, and yet he is content to speake, euen as Soter doth, and say of the other Masses, missarum solennia. Thus we sée these vntruthes sometime can not agrée, nether with their holy father the Pope, neither yet with the Portuise.

The B. of Saris.

Soter requireth to this action, only the company of three.

Harding.

The .147. vntruthe. He requireth not .iij. but .ij. at the least.

Dering.

Note good reader, this vntruthe is now twise made in the 144. vntruthe, and againe here. Yet if thou way it well, thou shalt sée, it was not worth repetition. In the other place, the p. 146sense was very obscure, and here the words are very straūge. To make this solemne Masse saith M. Iuel, iii. are required. Not so saith M. Harding, the priest requireth but two to make answere. But what if it happen that these two hauehave a thirde priest to say the Masse, Soter séemeth to meane so when he saith, vt sit ipse tertius, that the priest may be the thirde. I can not tel all their misteries. It may be they hauehave a custome, that two may make answere, when no man sayth the Masse. Or if they hauehave not, then this is not vntrue.

The B. of Saris.

It may be doubted whether dominus vobiscum were parte of the Liturgie in Soters time.

Harding.

The .148. vntruthe. This cannot be wel, and reasonably doubted.

Dering.

If well, and reasonably, doe not helpe out this vntruthe, it hathe then neither goodnesse, nor shew of probabilitie. Now what well, and reasonably, may doe in this matter, it shall well,In Epist. ad Hiero. and reasonably appeare, if you marke Damasus woords, he saith there was nothing red in the Churche on sundayes, sauing some Epistle of the Apostle, and some chapter of the Gospell. If Damasus say true, then it may be doubted bothe well, and reasonably, whether Dominus vobiscum were red or noe. This saying of Damasus maister Iuel dothe alledge, and vponupon little searche, it will easily appeare by all Ecclesiasticall recordes, that in Soters time, and many yeares after, there was no other solemnitie in their ministration, sauing reading, or expounding the scriptures, and some prayers, which the whole congregation did make together: some say that Peter vsed to celebrate with the Lordes prayer only. Paule did p. 147preache vntounto them, as appeareth in the Actes.Act 20. Mart. in chron. de Petro. Iustin. apol. 2Acts 20 Iustine speaking of the Communion in his time▪ saith: Post precationem, nos salutamus osculo mutuo, deinde affertur precipuo fratri panis, & ca…ix aqua dilutus &c. After our prayers, we salute one an other with a kisse, then the bread is brought to the chiefest brother, and the cuppe of wine, and water. Then the mynister giueth thanks vntounto God, in the name of the Sonne, and of the holy ghost, and the whole people doe answere Amen. And if these words are not yet plaine inough, by which we may doubt whether Dominus vobiscum were then in the Liturgie, Iustine saith againe. Die solis vrbanorum, & rusticorum coetus fiunt, vbi apostolorum, Iustin. apol. 2prophetarumque litera quoad fieri potest preleguntur. &c. On sunday we hauehave our metings bothe of the towne and the countrey, where the Apost…es and prophets wrytings are red vntounto vsus, so long as time wil serue: then our mynister dothe make an ex…ortation, willing vsus to folow the vertue and goodnesse whereof we reade. Then we rise altogether, and make our prayers. L…e héere is a full description of the Communion, in Iustinus Martyr, who liued in Soters time. And yet in all this, not one word making mention of Dominus vobiscum, yet is maister Harding so importune in his vntruthes, that he dareth boldly affirme, and yet hath no grounde, that Dominus vobiscum was then parte of their seruice. Let him shewe but one sufficient recorde for proofe of that, he wryteth, and let him hauehave his vntruthe. I know our decretall Epistles would be of this age, and they defile Gods sacraments, as becommeth that adulterous generation. But those epistles, as I hauehave sufficiently already shewed, are far vnworthy those godly fathers, whose names they beare.

The B. of Saris.

Further this same Soter requireth, that bothe these two and as many others, as be present, make answere vntounto the priest.

p. 184Harding.

The .149. vntruthe. He requireth it not, this is vtterly false.

Dering.

Note good reader, maister Hardings impudencie, and take héede of his lying spirite, he saith very censoure like this is vtterly false, and in his Reioinder raileth much at M. Iuel, for falsifying the Doctours, and yet most impudently he dothe vtterly belie him. Read his booke, he doth not bring one letter to proue that he saith. Belike he is wel persuaded: his friends wil beleue him, if he doe but say the worde: but to bring some proofe against maister Hardings bare word, vponupon these words of Soter, let him hauehave two at the least to aunswere, if they be moe, saith maister Iuel, then by Soters will they must all answer. Upon this, master Harding falleth in his railing vaine, and saith it is vtterly false. But let him say so, his mouthe is no slaunder. The gloser on this Decrée, moueth a doubt, whether these two should be ministers or lay men, or of what sort else. And he answereth, that it is plaine inough, they shold be mynisters. Yet saith he again, that is not certaine quia & populus respondent Amen. De cōs. dist. 1 hoc quo que in glossa.For all the people, must, likewise answer Amen. Loe he…re y^e glose doth flatly verifie this vntruth. And in an other place, Gracian speaking of the people, which heare their common prayer, saith thus: populus ad…d quod planè intelligit respondeat Amen, let the people say Amen to that they do plainly vnderstand.Dist. 38. sed. Héere beside, that the seruice must be in a knowne tong. Gracian saith plainly, al the people must say Amen. In this next vntruthe before, the like is shewed out of Iustinus, that all the people must say Amen, the same may be proued by all the wryters of that age: notwithstanding M. Harding to kéepe tale of his vntru…hes against Gracian, against the glose, against Iustinus M…rtyr, against al recordes, saith it is vtterly false. But examine the places, and so trie his credite.

p. 149The B. of Saris.

By M. Hardings minde, the Priests deuotion ought not to stay for lacke of companie.

Harding.

The .150. vntruthe. There can no suche meaning be gathered of my words.

Dering.

This, as it may be thought, is a very plaine vntruthe, maister Iuel reporting that of maister Harding, which him selfe saith, can not be gathered of his words. But bicause he hathe bene often found faultie, in as bolde asseuerations as this is, it shall not be amisse to sée his woords. Thus he saith: Well, none commeth: this is not a sufficient cause, why the godly priest, enflamed with the louelove of God, féeling him self hungry and thirsty, after the heauenly foode, and drinke, shold be kept from it. And hauehave not these words a good plain meaning? May not one reporte of these words, that a priest may say Masse alone? Why then dothe he score vp this vntruthe? Forsoothe héere is a distinction of no bodies comming: either no body may come to answer, or no body may come to receiue, and M. Harding meaneth, y^t the priest may goe forwarde, though no body come to receiue. After this sort I thinke, spake Heraclitus, when he would hauehave no body to vnderstand him. But this is no plain dealing, to speake first so doubtfully, and then score vp an vntruth if one vnderstand it not. And thus much graū ting this distinction of no body. If thou require further discharge of this vntruthe, I will shewe thee good proofe why M. Iuels saying, ought not to be blamed, notwithstanding this distinction. L…ke on Soters decrée, & thou shalt sée the glose alleageth his Canon law,De cōs. dis. 1. hoc quo que in glossa. to proue that the priest may sometime celebrate, if he hauehave but one present, sometime, if there be no m… but him selfe. This then being established by their lawe, p. 150that the Priest may say Masse alone, maister Hardings vntruthe may controll the Pope, it maketh little against maister Iuel.

The B. of Saris.

By this decree, these two were bound to receiue, or to departe.

Harding.

The .151. vntruthe. That decree, bindeth only the clergie.

Dering.

Before we had a distinction of no body, now to quite that barren matter, héere is a distinction of all men. Let all men receiue,De cōs. dist. 1 Peracta. saith Calixtus, or goe out of the Church, that is, saith maister Harding, all men of the clergie, not all men of the laitie. Thus neither all thing, nor nothing, nor something, nor any thing shall want a distinction, if by plaine dealing the matter be not good. But O maister Harding,Eurip. foreign, true speache is playne. Nowe for the Christian Reader, least these distinctions should deceiue thee, I must now, and then admonishe, …ée, that they be but false stuffe, and this shall well appeare in this present matter, if I teache thée, that in the primatiue Churche, there did none abide, that did not Communicate.

When Christ did first institute his supper, it was so, all that were present, did Communicate. He gaue commaundement,Math. 26.27.Matt 26:27 that it should be so vsed, and said. Drinke ye all of this. And that the Apostles, and those other, who bebeloued, did th…s, it appeareth in the Actes, where without excepti…n,Act. 2.42.Acts 2:42 S. Luke saith, they continued daily in breaking p. 151of breade. And againe, they met together to breake bread. This was after obserued among the Corinthians, as appeareth by S. Paule, who plainely teacheth,Act. 20.7.Acts 20:7 that they come together to eate the Lordes supper, and least we shoulde thinke any excepted, in the verses folowing, he addeth eueryevery one. And for a further proofe of his meaning, he biddeth them one tary for an other. By all this it is certaine, that all that were present, receiued. Upon this,1. Cor 11.33.1 Cor 11:33 saith Calixtus, let all receiue that will not depart out of the Church. And he bringeth a reason to this Decrée. Sic enim apostoli statuerunt. For so the Apostles hauehave appoynted from the Apostles time through all ages, till iniquitie beganne to hauehave the vpper hande it was alwayes an holy lawe. For all that were present, to Communicate. And it is condemned of the fathers, as great presumption, and impudencie, to looke on, and be no partaker, as it is other where sufficiently declared. And were not maister Harding set on euill vnderstanding, he would learne by that vse of the primatiue Churche, when they sent away Catechumeni, those that were beginners in Christianitie, that it was not lawfull for any to be an idle looker on. Sure in his priuate Masse, they may loke on that list. For this vntruthe, bicause Calixtus him selfe dothe referre vsus to the Apostles example, when maister Harding can proue by the Apostles, that those, whome S. Luke mentioneth to hauehave daily mette, and the Corinthians, to whome S. Paule wryteth, to hauehave bene all ministers, then these distinctions of all men, and no body, shal goe for good. Read the .221. vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

It is determined by the glose, that these two were Priests, or Deacons, and so this decree of Soter, agreeth with an other of Anacletus.

p. 252Harding.

The .152. vntruth. It is not assuredly determined by the glose.

The .153. vntruthe. It agreeth not.

Dering.

If this assuredly, doe not helpe out with an vntruthe, then assuredly this is no vntruthe: but for as muche, as assuredly is put in by maister Harding, assuredly this is no plaine dealing: and sure it is, if suche vnsure demeanor wer taken from maister Hardings assured vntruthes, the surety of good religion shold in déede appeare, and this vnsauery wrangling shold be contemned, for this vntruthe it is altogether shamelesse. The glose moueth this question: whether these two should be of the clergie, or of the laitie, or of either one, and it maketh this answere, satis videtur quod debent esse duo clerici, it is plaine inough,De cōs. dis. 2. paracta in glossa. they shold be two of the clergie. Now iudge whether maister Iuel may say thus, the glose hath determined it. As touching the allegation of these aucthorities out of maister Hardings Doctors, séeing he dothe so vnwisely reprehend it, bicause master Iuel alleageth their sayings, yet aloweth not their religion. May it please him to be answered, as Tullie said to Antonie, testimonium tuum quod in aliena re leue debet esse, in tua tamen quia contra te est, debet esse grauissimum, this their witnesse, which in an other matter were of no value, yet in their owne, bicause it is against thē selues, it must néedes be very waightie. This other vntruthe, as touching Anacletus, is like the residue: vponupon examination of the woords,De cōs. dis. 1. vt illud. let the reader iudge. Thus saith Anacletus, Episcopus deo sacrificans, testes secum habeat, in solennioribus quippe diebus, aut. 7. aut. 5. aut. 3. diaconos. &c. By this it is shewed, that at eueryevery ministration he shold hauehave some of the clergie. Now the glose of that other Decrée, determining that those two should be of the clergie, let the indifferent reader iudge whether p. 153it doeth agrée with this decrée of Anacletus, and so he shall sée the better, what maner of vntruthes these are.

The B. of Saris.

M. Harding knoweth well, that these decrees, which are here rehersed, could neuer be found written.

Harding.

The .154. vntruth. I knovv it not.

Dering.

The councels are extant, and the thing is plaine, these decrées are not in them. But saith Maister Harding, peraduenture thrée hundred yeare a gone, Gratian did sée them, though they neuer came to our hands: Now sure this is a straunge paraduenture. Gratian liued 800. yeares after the councell was holden at Agatha, and if those decrées had remained so long, peraduenture they might hauehave bidden .300. yeares mo, and so we should hauehave knowne of them. But seing the matter is but at peraduenture, at all aduentures let vsus graunt it. What, troweth Maister Harding, bicause that by gesse he proueth his priuate Masse, therfore shall gesses be of value to make vntruthes? He had néede shew better euidence, that would take away Maister Iuels good name.

The B. of Saris.

It is decreed, that they, which receiue not at Christmas, Easter, & Whitsontide, be accompted as no catholikes. Then except a few massing priestes, there is not one catholike in the church of Rome.

Harding.

The .155. vntruth. This is a slaunderous lye.

p. 154Dering.

The councell holden at Agatha, hath decréed thus, the seculer men,De cōs. dist. 2. seculares. that receiue not the Communion at Christmasse, Easter, and Whitsuntide, let them not be taken, or reckned for catholike people. Herevpon Maister Iuel saith, if it be so in the holy church of Rome, sauing a fewe Massing Priestes, there is not one catholike. The reason is. For they receiue but euerie Easter, and whether they hauehave vsed it, or no, let all the world witnesse. I doe appeale herein, to the conscience of the rankest papists, whosoeuer they be, let the vsage of that time be a triall, whether they vsed then only to receiue, or no. What holy fashions were then vsed, aboue other times? What shriuing? What dispeling? What curteine drawing? What primerose gathering? What cleckclacking? What roode sweating? What crossecreping? What Iacke an apes walking from the altar to the idol house? What wickednesse was there vsed againste that one time of their sinfull receiuing? Who knoweth it not, that this is true? Yet saith Maister Harding, it is a slanderous lye, it is an impudent tale, a false slaunder,Reioind. fo. 223. an impudent surmise, a manifest vntruth, such one, as may be sene, the nouice of him, that is the father of lies. If this may be beleued, we sée how against all certain trueth, he will spew out his venome. But God hauehave the glory, that hath giuen his children vertue, against such poison, For the vntruth, I say, as before, let the world iudge.

The B. of Saris.

I hauehave alreadie proued, by Saint Augustine, and Saint Ierome, that Communion was ministred in Rome euerie day.

Harding.

The .155. vntruth. This is proued by neither of them.

Dering.

Double on Maister Harding. Your number shall grow p. 155the better. This is now the fourth time, that this vntruth is reconed: that the thing is true, I hauehave sufficiently declared before. Now bicause the matter so falleth out, that M. Iuel alleaging foure times these things of Augustine, and Ierome, M. Harding noteth them for foure vntruths, I must craue of thée a litle to consider them. Ieromes wordes are these, I know this custome is at Rome, In Apolog. cont. Iouinia Reioind fol. 216.that christian folke receiue the bodie of Christ dayly, which I doe neither reproue, nor alow. These wordes, it séemeth, are méetely plaine. Maister Harding aunswereth thus. Héere mencion is made only of dayly receiuing, but that they receiued together in one place, that is not auouched. If any man can sée any reason in this aūswere, let the vntruth go. Now as touching Augustine, he sayth thus. Christ,Epist. 23. Reioinder. fol. 197. by way of sacrament is offered euerie day vntounto the people, not at Easter only, but eueryevery day. This authority, bicause it is somewhat plaine, Maister Harding skippeth it ouer, and aunswereth not at all. Augustine sayth againe, the dayly bread may be takē pro sacramento corporis christi, quod quotidie accipimus, for the sacramēt of Christes bodie, wich we receiue dayly.De serm. domini in mōt. li. 2. Reioinder. fol. 199. To this authoritie Maister Harding doth aunswere thus. Saint Augustine might meane that of him selfe, and other Priestes, or which is more likely he spake indefinitely, of all beleuers. Thus with might meane, and more likely, M. Harding would warrant this one vntruth to be .v. But he him selfe might meane more simply, & then it were more likely, these vntruthes had ben fewer, but let vsus sée more. S. Augustine saith againe,De serm. domini in mōt. li. 2. ca. 12. many in the Easte doe not dayly cōmunicate. Of this M. Iuel inferreth. Therefore some in the Easte did cōmunicate dayly. To this, M. Harding aunswereth somewhat shamefully: Of y^e thing I contend not,Reioinder. fo. 200. but yet M. Iuels argumēt is not good. Marke good Reader, M. Hard▪ saith, of y^e thing he wil not cōtend, & yet he maketh v. vntruths of it. But let this go. S. Augustine saith againe, the sacramēt of this thing is prepared, or consecrate in the p. 156church,In Iohan. tract. 26. Alicubi quotidie, alicubi certis interuallis dierum, somewhere euerie daye, and somewhere but on certaine dayes. To this Maister Harding aunswereth thus, the sacrament in some places is prepared euerie daye by priestes,Reioind. fol. …01. and by the same priests is eueryevery day receiued, these are the proofes which Maister Iuel saith here, that he hath brought. Maister Harding noteth his vntruthe, and sayth, they proue it not, whether they do, or no. Now let the Reader iudge. Except Maister Hardings aunsweres had ben better, this vntruth needeth no longer iustifying.

The B. of Saris.

Fabian saith, we decree that euerie sondaie the oblation of the altar be made both of bread, and wine, as well by men, as women: Here besides that in these wordes is included, the receiuing of the Communion euerie sonday, may be noted also by the way, that by this authoritie of Fabian, men, and women made the sacrifice of the alter, euen as S. Barnard saith: Not onelyonly the priest, but also all the faithfull sacrifice do.

Harding.

The .157. vntruthe. It is not included, that they receiue euerie sunday.

The .158. vntruth. Fabian doeth not attribute the making of the sacrifice to men, and vvomen.

The .159. vntruth. S. Barnard saith it not.

Dering.

This first vntruthe is, that though they offred euerie sunday bread, and wine, yet it foloweth not, that they receiued. But this Maister Harding sayth, onelyonly, and besyde gesses, hath no sufficient proufe for it. In fine, thus he resolueth the matter. This bread, and wine was partly for the priest alone to receiue,Reioind. fol. 127. partly for the cleargie, partly for the poore, and partely to make holy bread of, so this is become a verie beneficiall vntruth vntounto Maister Harding, it hath not onelyonly encreased his number, but it hath p. 157brought in an other article of his religion, and that is, at all a verie venture, holy bread. Here were good roome for one of Maister Hardings aunsweres, this pelfe will not serue, you must go séeke better stuffe. The second vntruth, here brought, is this, that men, and women doe not make this sacrifice. Fabians words are these: Haec altaris oblatio ab omnibus viris, et mu…eribus fiat, let this sacrifice of the alter be made of all, men and women. These words I trow, are meetely plaine, but Maister Harding aunswereth thus. There is difference betwene an oblation, and a sacrifice, oblation is it, when any thing is offered vntounto the Lorde, & nothing done vntounto it, or in it. A sacrifice is,Reioind. fo. 225. when a thing offred vntounto God, is by the priest altered, by some thing don in it, or vntounto it, for religion sake: so the common people made the oblation of the alter, but they made not the sacrifice of the alter. It were to be wished, good christian Reader, that these distinctions, were barred, then we should hauehave lesse wrangling, and fewer vntruths. But, they say, all is well, that endes well, if by examination this distinction be founde good, why should not Maister Harding vse it? Theophilacte, saith he, Chrisostome and Paule him selfe, hauehave so distinguished these words. First though they hadde done so, yet this were but a meane reason, to proue they were in like sort vsed in Fabian. The profe of Fabians meaning, may not well be shewed but by Fabian him selfe. But let vsus sée what these Doctours saye, on whome Maister Harding will▪ grounde this distinction. Theophilactus wordes are these, Inter donum, siue munus, et hostiam, siue victimam, si exactam spectes rationem, aliquid est discriminis, quia victimae, vel hostiae, sunt per sanguinē, In. 8. ca. ad Hebr.et carnem oblationes, vel quae per ignem sacrificantur, dona sunt quaecun que alia incruenta, et igni carentia. Betwene foreign and foreign that is gifts and sacrifices, this is the difference, that foreign, a sacrifice, is an oblation made with fleshe and bloud, or by fire, foreign a gift, is that which is offred vnbloudie, and without p. 158fire. Of this place M. Harding doeth conclude, that an oblation is a thing offered vntounto God without any thing done vntounto it, but this argument hangeth as losely, as any other commonly in M. Hardings booke. A gift whereof Theophilacte speaketh, is is in Greke, foreign, an oblation, whereof M. Harding speaketh, is in Gréeke foreign. So his reasō hangeth thus. A gift is that, which without fire, or bloud, is offred vntounto God, as an oblation is that, which hath nothing done vntounto it. This argument, Christian Reader, this is his owne reason, neither better, nor worse, than he hath made it. His second authoritie, is out of Chrisostome, his wordes likewise are these,Ad hebr. ho. 18. Oblatio erat quicquid extra sacrificium erat, that was the oblation, what so euer was beside the sacrifice, and more than this, he saith not now of these words how M. Hard. can frame his aūswere to this authoritie of Fabian, doutlesse no man that meaneth plainly, can espie. This is Chrisostomes meaning, y^• dona were all those sacrifices, or offerings prescribed, saue onelyonly, such as were sinne offrings. But M. Harding goeth further, & for…eth S. Paule, as if of him he had learned his distinction, how be it, he neuer spake one word of it. Yea the places by M. Hard▪ alleaged, do not so much as once name oblation, then how doth he make this exacte difference of oblations? Surely no authoritie had ben much better, than these thrée, nothing to the purpose. In the meane season by M. Hardings good skil, we may chaunge our cōmon vse of speaking, & say no more burnt offring, meate offring, peace offring, sin offering, &c. but rather thus, burnt sacrifice, meate sacrifice, peace sacrifice, sinne sacrifice, & so forth. A proper distinction, & méete to interprete Fabian, that cōtrolleth thus the phrase of the scripture. Here foloweth yet an other vntruth, & that is about these words, Non solus sacerdos sacrificat, sed etiam totus conuentus fidelium. Not only the priest sacrificeth, but also all the companie of the faithfull. This saith M. Harding, is not true in M. Iuels sense. For, saith he, that eueryevery one of p. 159the people, both men, & women in their own person do outwardly, & ministerially cōsecrate y^e bodie & bloud of Christ, & so offer, & make the sacrifice of the alter, after the order of Melchisedech, Reioind. fol. 227.neither is it signified by the blessed martir S. Fabian, neither was it euer before M. Iuels Replie came forth, with such impudencie reported. Better had it ben for M. Harding, & more credit for his vntruth, if he had rested here, y^t M.I. named Bernard, in stead of Guerricus. For this report of M. Iuels meaning is nothing else, but impudent folie. For who would euer say, that M. Iuels meaning is, y^e men, and women sayd Masse, such vntruth can be no better reproued, than by shewing Maister Hardings proues.

The B. of Saris.

But what if the verie words of these councels, where vponupon M. Harding hath found the Masse, make manifest proofe against his Masse? The words be these; All secular christian folke be bound to receiue the communion at the least, thrice in the yeare. This relaxation, or priuiledge is graunted onelyonly to the secular christians. whereof it foloweth necessarily, that all ecclesiasticall persons, as Priests, Deacons, Clerkes, and others, whatsoeuer of that sort, were not excepted, but stode still bounde to receiue orderly, as they had done before, and that was at all times, whensoeuer there was any ministration.

Harding.

The .160. vntruth. These be not the words of the councel.

The .161. vntruth. This is no relaxation, or priuiledge.

The .162. vntruth. The ecclesiastical persons were not bound to receiue, whensoeuer there was any ministration.

Dering.

This sentence of M. Iuel, no doubt, pleaseth M. Harding well. For cōsidering y^e nūber of vntruths, y^t he must find, he séeth some way must be foūd to bring his purpose to effect, vponupon this occasiō, here he hath noted .iij. vntruths together. But it is welū. Nber may be no preiudice to y^e truth, let vsus p. 160examine the sayings. First saith Maister Iuel, the councels words are these. All secular folke are bound to receiue the Communion, at the least, thrise a yeare. These are not the words, saith Maister Harding, and it is true. These are not the words in déede. But way yet well the whole matter, & thou shalt sée Maister Harding a verie wrangler. Maister Iuel a litle before doeth recite the latine, euen as it is red in Gracian, and doeth english it word for word, hauing occasion againe here to repeate the decrée, he alleageth the true meaning, and maketh onelyonly this change, in stead of Christmasse, Easter, and whitsontide, he saith, thrise in the yeare, and in doing so, what blame deserueth he? Looke in this same diuision, Maister Iuel alleageth the words thus. Qui in natali domini, De cōs. disc. 2. seculares.Pascate, et Pentecoste non communicant, catholici non credantur, nec inter catholicos habeantur. These verie words are found in Gracian, they, that receiue not the Communion at Christmasse, Easter, and Whitsontide, let them not be taken nor reconed for catholike people. Here is the place truely alleaged, and worde for worde interpreted, then how can he be blamed for falsifying the councels wordes? In this place which followeth, within one leafe, he alleageth the sense of this decrée thus. All secular christian folke be bound to receiue the Communion, at the least, thrise in the yeare. There he nameth y^e times, Christmasse, Easter, Whitsontide, here he saith, thrise in the yeare, and is this any vntrue dealing? This it is, that I sayd, marke well Maister Harding, and thou shalt finde him a verie wrangler. For this other vntruth, about a relaxation, and priuiledge, except Maister Harding thinke he hauehave a priuiledge to wrangle, what doeth it here? It is a relaxation to those that receiued, either euerie day, or euerie sunday, it was a restrainte of those that would receiue but once a yeare. Now this third vntruth, whether the ecclesiasticall persons were bounde to receiue, when soeuer there was any ministration, or no, in that maister Harding p. 161may well disclose his owne vntruthe. He can not blame maister Iuel. I require of the Christian reader, to mark diligently what is spoken, and then iudge as God shall moue thée. Ecclesiasticall persones were bound daily to receiue saith M. Iuel. They were not saith M. Harding, and for proofe of that, he saith only thus muche, that maister Iuel hath not proued the contrary. Now whether he hath, or not, let his Replye be iudge. He alleageth in the .29. Diuision,Cano. apost. Canon. 9. a Canon of the Apostles, which is this, if any Bishop or priest, or Deacon, or any other of the clerks after the Oblation is made, doe not Communicate, either let him shew cause thereof, that if it be found reasonable, he may be excused, or let him be excommunicate. I trow this be a law, & a straight law that is inforced vnderunder the paine of excommunication. They were bounde so sure, that they might not be losed, but vponupon iust occasion, and necessitie, hath no law. Yet saith master Harding, it is not proued. Now thou séest he will not say alwayes true. And to proue that this proofe was good,Concil. Elib. Cap. 180. it is decréed by the councell holden at Eliberis in Spaine, in sundry Canons, that vponupon diuers faultes, the priests, deacons, and clerks, should not in the end of seruice receiue the Communion, wherby it appeareth, that it was their duety to receiue at eueryevery ministration. And this may well appear, if we be not obstinate by the councel of Carthage, saying.Cōc. Carth. 4. ca. 41. Diaconus tempore oblationis tantum, vel lectionis, alba induatur, let the Deacon wear on his albe, only in the time that the scripture is a reading, or else in the time of the Communion. By this it may appeare, that in their seruice the cleargie had their Communion, so in the .73. canon of the same councell, it is said: qui communicauerit .l. orauerit, where by that ioyning, it may appeare that in their common prayers, they had also a Communion, and it was then especially prouided that no spirituall man shold be present, and not Communicate. And surely, who so shall well consider the diligence of the mynisters in the primatiue Churche, shall not, nor can not doubt, except priuate Masse hauehave blinded him, but that themselues receiceiued p. 162at eueryevery assembly, and exhorted other to doe the like. Then this is no vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

Those decrees were not made for the greatest parte of the people, which in their dayes vsed to communicate in all their assemblies. &c. as appeareth by the Ecclesiasticall records of that time.

Harding.

The .163. vntruth. The greatest part vsed not to Communicate in all their assemblies at that time.

The .164. vntruthe. The Ecclesiasticall recordes of that time shew the contrary.

Dering.

These vntruthes stande vponupon maister Hardings computation of times. And if you will not alow his owne reckening, neither are all the other vntruthes of any value, nor this worthe the numbring. At this time, saith maister Harding, that is, when the councell of Agatha was holden, the greatest parte did not Communicate in all their assemblies, and this he proueth by the testimonies of Ambrose, Augustine, and Chrysostome. Lib. 5. de sa. ca. 4. de ser. domini in mo .l. 2. cap. 120. Ad po. A. ho. 61.To those fathers I answer, that they spake only vntounto some, that were very negligent, and would but seldome receiue. Maister Hardings surmise, that therof gesseth at a priuate Masse, is very slender. What if one hundred, or two? or what if the greater parte came seldome to the congregation, and therfore these good pastors did so often rebuke them? Yet most of them, that came, did Communicate, and maister Harding shall neuer shew the contrary. These selfe same Doctors are very plaine, that vsually, many of them did receiue, and if it were so, where is the priuate Masse? Chrysostome speaketh plainly,In. 4. ad ro. ser. 8. contremiscite, contremiscite ad mensam hanc, de qua communicamus simul omnes, tremble, tremble at this table, at which we doe all Communicate togither. p. 163And that we may know how often this was done, he wryteth in an other place, prece… illic perpetuae propter te, synaxis propter te, oblatio per singulos dies dominicos, there are,In acta. ca. … hom 18. meaning of the Church, continual prayers for thée, assemblies for thée, and the Communion eueryevery sunday. And if maister Harding wil except again, that Oblatio is not the Communion, let him remember héere is also Synaxis, by which worde is also ment the Communion, so whether worde he will hauehave to signifie this Sacrament, he must confesse, that it was vsed at the least eueryevery sunday, and that of the people. And in an other place, Chrysostome saith:Ad pop. Ant. hom. 61. Omnis qui astat & ministeriorū participio non fruitur, impudens est, & procax. Whosoeuer is present, and dothe not Communicate, he is shamelesse and malapert. And in diuers places he warneth them to cease their euil doing, with oft repetition of the dreadfull mysteries. And to what purpose were that, if they receiued not commonly. The aucthoritie that is alleaged out of Augustine, is taken out of Ambrose, and it may wel be answered with the aucthoritie againe of Augustine, taken out of Cyprian. Hunc panem dari nobis quotidie postulamus. &c. This bread saith he, we desire that it may be daily giuen vntounto vsus. &c. Least while we be denied that heauenly breade, we be seperate from the bodye of Christ. Héereby it appeareth, in their assemblies, the most of them receiued, and to this effecte maister Iuel dothe alleage, Conc. Matisc. 2 cap. 40. Concil. Antisiodor. Can. 42. Car. mag. lib. 6. cap. 162. Now how so euer it liketh maister Harding to accept it, all this must néedes stande for sufficient proofe. For this seconde vntruthe héere brought, that the contrarye is shewed by sundry recordes of this, that we hauehave said, it appeareth that this shewe, as it is againe shewed, is nothing worth. Therefore the vse of receiuing in those dayes was, as it is recorded, eueryevery sunday at the least, but the receiuing in the Popes dayes, is eueryevery Easter, and so both these vntruths are become none.

p. 164The B. of Saris.

It was decreed by a councell holden at Gerunda in Spaine, that all litle Churches in the countrey, shold confourme them selues vntounto the great cathedrall churches, that were in cities, and townes, as well for order of the Communion, as also for singing, and other ministration. But by M. Hardings owne graunt, there was no priuate Masse in the cathedrall Churches.

Harding.

The .165. vntruth. That councell speaketh neuer a vvorde, in that canon of the Communion.

The .166. vntruthe. I neuer made any suche graunt.

Dering.

Beleue not this mannes saying, gentle reader, if thou louelove thine owne soule. Marke first the aucthorities ere thou credite his reporte. The words of the councel, are these, vt institutio missarum, sicut in Metropolitana ecclesia agitur, ita in dei nomine in omni Terraconensi prouincia, tam ipsius missae ordo quam psallendo, vel ministrando consuetudo seruetur. That the institution of Masses, euen as it is done in the Metropolitane Churches, so in the name of God we wil, that in al the prouince of Terraconia, the same custome be kept, in order, in singing, and in mynistration. This canon is reported by Gracian, who in stead of Terraconia, putteth in all prouinces, least maister Harding should make exception of any one countrey.De consec. dist. 2. instit. But saith he, this decrée speaketh neuer a worde of the Communion. Yet this decrée hath these expresse woords. The institution of the Masse, the order, the maner of singing, and the mynistration. And the title of this decrée in Gracian, is this: as in the cathedrall Churches, sic vbique missarum solennia celebrentur, so eueryevery where let the solemnitie of the Masse be kept: and the glose saith, Ostendit quod missa non debet aliter celebrari, Ibi. in glossa.quam in Metropolitana ecclesia, he sheweth that the p. 165Masse must be celebrated no otherwise, than in the cathedrall Churches. If the Communion in the Masse, be no part of the institution, nor order, nor ministration, it is a strange Communion, and it is a straunge Masse, that may be instituted, and ministred without it. But be it, that this were so, is maister Harding so vncourteous to his close Communion, that he wil hauehave it no part of the solemnitie of his Masse? He doth thē deserue very ill of it. For it hath more prety gestures, than all the Masse beside. But what if maister Harding will denye all this? What if he care neither for councel, nor yet for Gracian? What if he say it is no part of the institution, order, ministration, nor yet of the solemnitie? yet he cannot auoid y^e glose, that speaketh expresly, without naming any circumstaunce, that the Masse must be celebrate no otherwise in small Churches, than it is in the Metropolitane churche. Now except M. Harding do meane to teache vsus, by these distinctions, that the Communion is no parte of the Masse, it must be ministred in all Churches alike. This is a miserable cause that M. Harding hath, that to defend it, must either fall into this absurditie, that the Communion is no part, neither of the institution of the Masse, nor of the manner of singing, nor of the order, nor of the ministration, nor of the solemnity, nor of the Masse it self, or else he must confesse, this is no vntruth. Now where he saith further, for this other vntruth, that he made no suche graunt, that in cathedrall Churches there was no priuate Masse, if it be true, what a vain argument made he, when he gessed at priuate Masse in little villages, by the vse of Cathedral churches. Reasoning after this sort, that séeing ther were so few Communicants in the great citie of Antioche, what was to be thought of small parishes?Hard. diuis. 30 Héere may wel appeare a secrete graunt, that priuate Masses must be had in small townes in the countrey, or else no where.

The B. of Saris.

It appeareth by most certaine, and vndoubted proofes, that the people did receiue then eueryevery sunday.

p. 166Harding.

The .167. vnt. It appeareth not, by ought that here is brought.

Dering.

In the .157. vntruthe, master Harding said, this was a foule vntruthe. Héere he saith, it is vntrue, for ought that héere is brought, so he somwhat qualifieth his former saying. But yet this doing is straunge, bicause the thing is certaine, to make exception against the proofe, more modestie might well hauehave yelded vntounto the truthe. How be it, considering it is M. Hardings doing, it is y^e more sufferable. Poets, and painters may not be limitted in their inuentiōs. But least the christian reader should be deceiued, and hauehave some confidence of this vntruthe, bicause it is twise reckened: let vsus sée these proofes, which maister Harding saith are so vnsufficient. The one is, Decernimus, vt omnibus dominicis diebus. &c. We decrée that eueryevery sunday the oblation of the aultar,Cōc. matisc. cap. 4. be made of eueryevery mā, and woman. This aucthority séemeth very sufficient, if y^e time do preiudice it, in that thi… councell was holden more than & C. yeares after the councell of Agatha, maister Harding must vnderstand it is an argument, Minorae. They receiued eueryevery sunday in the time of the councel holden at Matiscona. Ergo, muche rather when the councel was at Agatha. And in déede, from that time our sauior Christ ascēded, vntill the Pope sate aloft in the Church of God, eueryevery age, as it was nearer vntounto Christes time, so they had more commonly their Communions. The second profe y^t M. Iuel bringeth, is this, vnaquaeque mulier. Cōc. antis. Cap. 42.&c. EueryEvery womā when she doth communicate, let hir hauehave hir Dominical. If she hauehave it not, let hir not Communicate, vsque in alium diem dominicum, vntill the next sunday. Then of like they receiued eueryevery sunday. This argumēt saith M. Harding, is slender, & a learned man will be ashamed of it. And he answereth it with an other argument, & if thou wilt hauehave a paterne of a good one, marke it well. The wordes are p. 167saith he, quando communicat, when she dothe communicate. Ergo, she did not communicate eueryevery sunday.Reioinder. fol. 231. He that will reprehend M. Iuels argument, it is reason himself should hauehave made a better. By suche reasons we may conclude what we wil. When she did communicate, therfore she did it not eueryevery sunday. Then when we go to dinner, we sit downe. Therfore we goe not to dinner eueryevery day. Suche prooues may be soone made. Biside this, M. Harding chalengeth the translation, but that is not worthe answering. Alias is commonly vsed for the next, fallacia alia aliam trudit. Nos alia ex alijs in fata vocamur. Aliud ex alio malum. Ex alio in aliud vicissitudo. And if we say in Englishe, we must tary for another terme, eueryevery wise man doth vnderstand it, we must tary til the next terme. Thus hear appeareth no insufficiencie in M. Iuels proofe, but muche folowing M. Hardings vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

Likewise Socrates writeth thus in Greke, foreign, that is to say, to hauehave a congregation, or assembly by thēselues.

Harding.

The .168. There are no suche words in that place in Socrates.

Dering.

False quotation needeth no great excuse.

The B. of Saris.

Let Missa be taken for the Masse, that is, for the ministration of the Sacraments.

Harding.

The .169. It doth not signify the ministration of the sacramēts.

Dering.

Betwéene M. Stapleton, and M. Harding, maister Iuel can say nothing without blame. The sixth vntruthe noted by p. 168maister Iuel out of maister Hardings answer, is this. S. Andrew said the Communion, and not the Masse. In the returne of this vntruth, saith maister Stapleton: you speake fondly, the Masse, and the Communion is al one. Héere saith maister Iuel, let the Masse be taken for the Communion. That is an vntruthe saith maister Harding, it can not be so taken. Thus we sée these men are at a point, speake maister Iuel, what he wil, so long as he speaketh truthe, he shall not escape blame. Whether Missa may signifie the Communion, or no. Reade more in the .17. vntruthe.

The B. of Sarisb.

Verily it is prouided by the decree it selfe, that in priuate Chappels, there should be a lawfull, and an ordnarie company.

Harding.

The .170. vntruthe. It was not prouided.

Dering.

To make this vntruthe perfect, M. Harding hath bound it with a double asseueration, verily, verily, this is a false lie. But surely, surely, there is little honesty, to vse so muche wrangling, where the matter it selfe is plaine. The words of the decrée are these, vt ibi missas teneat propter fatigationem familiae, Conc. Agat. cap. 21.iusta ordinatione permittimus, we permit that in due order for the wearinesse of his housholde, he may hauehave Masse in his priuate Oratorie. Now though maister Harding goe not the right way to proue his priuate Masse, that goeth to séeke it out in priuate chappels, yet let vsus way well what this permission is. The decrée saith, iusta ordinatione, or iusto ordine, De consecr. dist. 1. si quis.so without due order it might not be, not in priuate Oratories, and to hauehave it with order, was to hauehave a number of Communicantes. So this permission yet makes no priuate Masse. Againe the decrée saith, propter fatigatiouem familiae, for the wearinesse of the housholde, whereby it appeareth the p. 169householde must communicate. For if they should not hauehave gon to church, how should they hauehave ben werie of going? & thē was there not yet priuate Masse. Thirdly it was gra… ted in those parishes, in which, beside that householde, there was legittimus, ordinarius que conuentus, in which there was beside a sufficient companie. What neded this exception, if the Priest might hauehave sayd Masse, & receiued a…one? Litle companie will serue to make one communicate. Thus we sée Maister Harding, doeth no where speake more aduisedly, than where he maketh most constant asseueration.

The B. of Saris.

Vincentius writeth, after Gregorius was dead, Bonifacius ruled the church of Rome. This Boniface obtained of the Emperour, Phocas, that the church of Rome should be the head of all churches, and that bicause the church of Constantinople wrote it selfe by that title. The next yeare after that, Augustine, that was called the English mens bishop, died. The yeare folowing, Iohn the Almonar, was in great fame, at which time also Mahomet first spred his religion in Arabia.

Harding.

The .171. vntruth. Vincentius vvriteth not so.

Dering.

If thou knowest not what wrangling is, now learne. Maister Harding findeth here diuerse faults. The first, that Bonifacius was not next Gregorie, and true I think it be. Sauinianus was one yere betwene, and what skilleth that to priuate Masse? Or why should Maister Iuel of purpose, speake here vntruly? It is very probable he might forget the order of the Popes, that was so occupied to set out Gods religion. This was not worth the noting. Another fault is, where Vincentius saith, Augustine the first… English Bishop. Maister Iuel saith thus, Augustine that was p. 170called the English bishop. What contention aboute words is this▪ Another fault is, bi cause he alleageth not one sent…nce, where Vincentius doeth commend the Almonars lib…ralitie Except Maister Iuell would hauehave filled his booke with idle words, this was nothing necessarie. He searcheth … what I killeth it then, to alleage hi… co…dations. We reade in Plato, that a … was euer won… to make suche a…nswer…s▪ when Cherephon asketh Polus, what science Gorgias professeth, Polus always is vp with a speciall commendation of it,Plato in Gorgia. and neuer tels what it is. But Socrates sayd, that was nothing to the purpose, there was no man dispraised it, so what helpeth it, when we aske of the Almonars age, to alleage Vincentius commendation, of him. No man disprayseth him, we séeke for his age, we enquire not of his qualities, lette the man alone. The fourthe faulte is, that he parteth this saying: What tyme Mahomet spred his religion in Arabia, in the distincte letter of the Doctours allegations. This doyng helpeth Maister Iuell neuer a whit. For if it be true, what skilleth it, who sayth it? Againe, if the Printer make not his letters well, Maister Iuell is not to blame. Here are foure faulte… founde without salte or …auoure, yet there is an other, and that is, that aboute this time, Mahomet spred not his religion. For he beganne, sayth Maister Harding, in the latter time of Heraclitus the Emperour. Maister Harding is verie supersticious in computation of times, or this would séeme to bée a verie …ender …. Phocas began his raigne, in the yeare of our Lord .604. three yeares after that Bonifacius was made Pope▪ 607. it was foure yeares after,Nauclerus in chron. gen. 21. et. …2. that Iohn the Almonar, shoulde saye this Masse. Anno .610. within .xix. yeare… after, in the ninetene yeare of Heraclitus, Mahomet did sprede his heresie. And may we not saye of p. 171things done nighe a thousande yeares paste, tha… th…y were done about one tyme, if the… were done within nintene yeares compasse? But what meaneth Maister Harding, to cauill aboute times? The wryters them selues doe not agrée▪ by some computation, they … verie lytle. Mahomet is sayde to hauehave begonne, Anno Domini ▪621. so there was but nine yeares difference▪ …. temp. Fo. 41. pa. 2.and may not then Maister Iuell saye, they were done aboute the same tyme. Maister Harding hath little to …aye, when he stayeth at suche trifles. But bicause Maister Harding taketh it in by the waye, that Augustine was our firste Bishoppe, reade more of that in the Epistle.