A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths — Edward Dering

A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths · Edward Dering

The B. of Saris.

Basil reporteth an Ecclesiasticall Decree or Canon, that at the receiuing of the holy Communion, which he called mysticum Pascha, there ought to be .xij. persones at the least, and neuer vnderunder.

Harding.

The .80. vntruthe. It is no Ecclesiasticall decree.

Dering.

M. Harding in this place is farre gone. He is wont to controll very curiously false quotation in this place onlesse my boke deceiue me he is much ouerséene. For I think it is in asceticis sermone primo. Whether it bewell quoted or no, it is truely reported. S. Basils words are these. Quemadmodum spiritualis lex non vult eos esse infra numerum duodenarium qui mysticum pascha edere debeant. &c. Euen as the spirituall or Ecclesiasticall decrée will not hauehave vnderunder twelue that shuld eate the mysticall passeouer. &c. Loe. S. Basil sayth it is an Ecclesiasticall Decrée. Yet M. Harding saith it is no Decrée. Beleue him not henceforth before thou trie him. And the Doctors words wer as sone changed, as he is redy to deny, or affirme at aduentures, thou couldest be sure of nothing, but it is well, the truthe doth not hang vponupon his report. Let him say while he will, it is no decrée, S. Basils wordes are plaine, it is spiritualis lex. If M. Harding had not made wrangling, his hope in these vntruthes, this had not bene numbred. He may as well blame the Euangelistes, for alleaging the Prophets. And no doubt if M. Iuell should follow the faithfull sense as the Euangelists doe and let passe words, Maister Harding would finde fiue lies in one line. Such truthe he vseth in these vntruthes.

The B. of Saris….

It appeareth by S. Augustine, and certaine olde Canons, that in the Primatiue church the Priest, and people sometime did Communicate after supper.

Harding.

The .81. vntruthe. The .11. diuision. It appeareth not.

Dering.

This vntruthe is sone answered. For M. Harding graunteth that it appeareth by s. Augustine, some receiued on Maū die thursday after supper, but saith he, that is not sometime. For saith he, he that saith somtime,Reioinder. Fol. 125. meaneth oftner than once a yeare. Now if it were possible that once a yeare might be sometime, then were it necessary that M. Harding did wrangle. But bicause once a yeare is no time, let vsus sée if it may be proued, that it was done oftner. First, whether it be or no, S. Augustine is at a point, and saith,Ad Ianua. Ep. 118. faciat quisque quod in ea Ecclesia in quam venerit, inuenit. Let eueryevery one doe after the custome of that Church, in which he cōmeth, it appertaineth neither vntounto faith, nor vntounto good maners, therefore whether a man receiue the Cōmunion, fasting or no, so he receiue in the Lord, it skilleth not muche. Now what they hauehave done in the primatiue Church, let vsus, as I hauehave said, enquire.Act. 20.7. It appereth in the scripture, that on a day when the Disciples came together to break bread, Paule disputed among them, and prolonged his talke vntil midnight. Of this if I shold conclude, that they came in the after none. M. Harding perhaps would say it were but a gesse, therefore I leaue it.1. Co. 11. S. Paule writeth to the Corinthians, if any man be hungry, let him eat at home. Therfore it foloweth necessarily, that they may receiue after other meate, and if it be so, M. Harding him selfe will graunt they might receiue at night, vnlesse as he doth in the .8. diuisiō so here he will deny that this place is meant of the Communion, and if he doe, the Doctors are then against him. S. Augustine shall stand in stead of many, who saith plainly,Ad Ianua. Ep. 118. de hoc ipso sacramento loquitur. He speaketh of this very sacrament. Now this being lawfull to be done, and the Churche of God being so oppressed, could not méete when they wold, no doubt sometime they met at night. And further that this may be no bare gesse, that some receiued at night. It appeareth by S. Luke, Act. 2.where he writeth that they did continue in the Doctrine of the Apostles, and in breaking bread, and that continuaunce in the same Chapter, he mentioneth againe by these wordes, foreign, which words signify a continuāce from morning till night, and by this aboue all coniecture, it is manifest they receiued sometimes at night.Act. 5. Then except M. Harding wil vse héere his former distinction of the Thursday before Easter, and say that quotidie is eueryevery Maundie thursday, it is true that M. Iuel saithe that sometime they receiued at night. Now that some parte of the vse of the primatiue church may appeare to agrée with this doing of the Apostles, we will a little examine their doings.Bas. in Psal. 114. S. Basil writeth that they were accustomed at the dedication of Temples to méete at midnight, but at the same assemblies they may well séeme to hauehave ministred the Communion, and therfore at after supper.Theod. lib. 2 cap. 13. We reade the same of Athanasius, that he did vsually gather together the Christian congregation at Alexandria in the night time. And of this night méeting in all the congregations that were in Europe, Lactantius maketh expresse mention.Lib. 7. ca. 19 de diuino primo. Ierom maketh mention of the same in his Epistle to Sabinjanus, and against Vigilantius. And that these meetings were in the foreparte of the night, it may appeare, for that they had commonly other méetings in the morning, which they called Antelucanos coetus, the morning assemblies. And yet if M. Harding wold sticke in it, I may refuse all these and many suche aucthorities. And for the iustifying of these vntruthes, stand to the plaine wordes of Sozomene, who writeth that in many Cities and Townes among the Egiptians, Sozo. lib. 7. cap. 19.they had their méetings on Saterday at night, and in like plaine woords Primasius saith, that in certaine places of Syria and Egipt, 1. Cor. 11.men came together on Saterday night, and that after. Now I trust though the Thursday before Easter with maister Harding be no time, yet all these saterdayes ioyned with it, I trust do make sometimes. Here is nothing can be replied but if M. Harding wil say, that in suche méetings they did not minister the sacrament. And if he wil say so, may it please him then to héere what Eusebius saith, that in suche méetings they had Orationes, Psalmodiam, participationem de mysterijs. &c. Lib. 10. ca. 2They had prayers, singing psalmes, the Communion. &c. And S. Augustine saith, they did celebrate Dominicam coenam, De ciuit. dei lib. 22. ca. 8.the Lords supper, but except M. Harding hauehave some distinction in store, which yet now he hath not told vsus of, we shall not néede greatly to proue this matter, in the .182. vntruthe, where M. Iuel alleageth the coūcel of Cabilon, De consecr. dis. 1. solent. plures.to proue that Masse doth sometime signifie common prayer, bicause there it is recorded that they had Masse at euening, circa noctis initium, about the beginning of night, there M. Harding maketh this answere, why sir thinke you that Missa is taken for any kinde of prayer, bicause in that place it is required to be done in y^e euening? As though the Masse might not at any time be celebrate,Reioinder. Fol. 255. but only before noone? if you so thinke you are deceiued. &c. and there fully he concludeth that sometime it was said at night, naming both maundy thursday and other times also. Then I trust this vntruth is iustified expresly by sundry other aucthorities, and probably by M. Hardings owne. He telleth vsus in déede, that though it were at night, yet it was not after supper nor yet dinner, but that saying resteth vponupon M. Hardings credit, which to proue an vntruthe, wayeth ouer light.

The B. of Saris.

In the primatiue Church this order was thought expedient, not for the sicke, for they in their health receiued daily.

Harding.

The .82. vntruthe. It was for the sicke.

The .83. vntruthe. They receiued not daily.

Dering.

If I went about to aunswere M. Hardings Reioinder in this one Paragraph, through lying, and fonde speaking, he hath ministred sufficient matter to fill many leaues. But I leaue that to the godly Reader to consider. For this present purpose, thus saith master Iuel, the receit of the Cōmunion, when men lay on their death bed, was instituted in the primatiue Churche, especially not for the sicke, but for them that were excommunicate. This saying M. Harding dothe turne, as if M. Iuel said,Reioinder. Fol. 127. that it was not expedient for the sick to receiue, and so maketh that vntrue, which in déede is vntrue, and neuer spoken by M. Iuel. But without such shifts, master Hardings number of vntruthes could not grow. For maister Iuels saying, that this receiuing was especially for the excommunicate, it may be sufficiently proued. And M. Harding in his Reioinder saith nothing to the contrary, for this vntruthe, bicause M. Iuel saith no such thing. Let it stande as a slaunder not worthy aunswere. An other vntruthe héere is brought, that the people receiued not daily, and M. Harding hath such a confidence in this vntruthe, that he is not contented with once noting it, but as his manner is, in many other vntruthes, when his number commeth slowly forward, he reconeth up one .4. or .5. times. so he vseth this, and maketh it the 83.133.145.156.213. vntruthe. Now bicause it is so often reckened, by like it standeth vponupon some good ground. Reade the .133. vntruthe, and thou séest what it is.

The B. of Saris.

At last it grew to suche superstition, that it was thruste into mennes mouthes after they were deade, as we may see by the councell of Carthage, forbidding the same.

Harding.

The .84. vntruthe. It was not thrust in their mouthes.

The .85. vntruthe. It is not to be seene.

Dering.

What meaneth M. Harding? would he hauehave children witnesses of his foly. The wordes of the Councel are these, Item placuit vt mortuis foreign non detur. It hath likewise pleased vsus that the Sacrament be not giuen vntounto deade men, héereby saith he it appeareth it was giuen to deade men, not that it was thrust in their mouthes. But I pray M. Harding, can a thing be giuen to a dead man to eate, and not thrust into his mouthe? This vaine contention about words proueth M. Harding to be a very wrangler. This appeareth to be true by the Canon M. Iuel recites, and further we reade that it was commaunded if the persone were dying, infundatur ori eius Eucharistia, that the Sacrament should be poured into his mouthe. Héere by the way note, that in that time the people receiued the cuppe. As touching the .85. vntruth, M. Hardings Reioinder doth confute it selfe in the next vntruthe, before he said the Councel did forbid it, now he sayth it did not so, whether it did or no, M. Harding hath made a lie, and except the distruction of thrusting it in their mouthes, and putting it in, there is no coloure to shadow the lie.

The B. of Saris.

The members of these argumentes hang together like a sicke mannes dreame.

Harding.

The .86. vntruthe. I make no arguments in this place.

Dering.

No good arguments in déede I graunt, but yet suche as they are, you encombre vsus with them.

The B. of Sarisb.

Heere would M. Harding faine finde a Masse. &c.

Harding.

The .87. vntruthe. Heere I seke not for the Masse.

Dering.

But to séeke after your Masse, is your only purpose. Therfore here you speake nothing to the purpose, and consequently as it was said afore, your writings hang together like a sicke mannes dreame.

The B. of Saris.

Here these words, eueryevery other christian man, or woman, that he hath in by the way, are an ouerplus, and quite from the purpose.

Harding.

The .88. vntruthe. The .12. Diuision. These vvordes are quite from the purpose.

Dering.

The question is, whether there were priuate Masse within .600. yeare after Christ, that is, whether the Priests receiued alone in the congregation: Maister Harding answereth, sicke men, and women receiued at home. The controuersie lieth whether this be from the purpose.

The B. of Saris.

For the question is moued not of any other man, or woman, but of the Masse, and only of the Priest, that saith the Masse.

Dering.

The .89. vntruthe.

Before there was an vntruth quoted, & not numbred, here is one numbred, and not quoted. When M. Harding telleth what this vntruthe is, we will answere it, in the meane season we may marke the value of these vntruthes. Some not worth numbring, some not worthe naming, but all is good inough for this Reioinder.

The B. of Saris.

S. Ierome in his exposition is as homely, calling it vilem intelligentiam traditionum.

Harding.

The .90. vntruth. S. Ierome calleth not Moses lavv so.

Dering.

Héere M. Harding maketh two gesses. One at S. Ieroms meaning, an other at maister Iuels, if either faile, this vntruthe, that is risen by chaunce must sal of necessitie. But M. Harding héere, as his whole religion is, maketh very muche of outwarde shewes. For except a little carnal pleasure of the outward sense, there is nothing in their sinagogue, but mourning, and lamentation of the spirit. foreign in no wise he will hauehave beggerly Ceremonies. foreign saithe he, is poore or nedy, not beggerly. What great ignorance in singular impudencie? This exacte defining of Gréeke words may bréede some where some opinion of learning. But alas héere is nothing but in déede foreign beggerly wrangling without other learning, or good religion, foreign saith maister Harding is not beggerly but poore. Yet Aristophanes saith, foreign is not pore but beggerly. Nowe whether were better Grecian master Harding or Aristophanes, Aristop. in Pluto.I thinke it may be sone iudged, Aristophanes wordes are these, foreign, he is foreign, that is a begger and hath nothing, he is foreign that liues by his labor. Thē by this it séemeth that foreign is beggerly. And Maister Harding, that sacred interpretation, that trident couent, doth so muche enforce, doeth it not call them egena elementa? And I pray you M. Harding, whether is egena poore or beggerly? Surely Ouid saith, (de rem. amor. lib. 2.) of Hecate and Irus, why they are not beloued. Nempe quod alter egēs, altera pauper erat. bicause Hecate was but poore, & Irus was a very begger, but thus it is: Maister Harding careth neither for Aristophanes, nor yet for Ouid, neither yet for Gréeke, nor yet for Latine. He is so ielous ouer his vntruthes, that some time he speaketh he knoweth not what. Againe foreign, saithe maister Harding is rather Elements, than Ceremonies. In déede I graunt the word signifieth the foure elements, but I trow he wil not hauehave S. Paule speake thus: now you know God, why turne you againe to the fire, aire, water, and earth, that were a beggerly sense made of the holy Ghosts wordes. Then why doeth he not confesse that S. Paule meaneth the Ceremonies of the law? and thus much as concerning master Hardings Gréeke. As touching his religion it is very choler, if in respect of Christ, he may not suffer the ceremonies of the law to be called beggerly. But it is no maruell though this interpretation offend them,Gal. 4.10. for what is it that Paule calleth beggerly Ceremonies? It foloweth. You obserue dayes and monthes, times, and yeares. Hinc illae lachrimae, for this cause M. Harding is so much offended, such obseruations are great principles in Papistrie, and to call them beggerly, is to make all that Religion nothing worthe. But we sée suche a one is Paule, he was chosen to preache among the gentiles, and God hauehave the glory,Gal. 1.6. he hath conuerted vsus from al popish Idolatry. For this aucthoritie of Ierom, which M. Harding blameth, & in which he séeketh for his vntruthe,Lib. 2. cōm. ad Gal. ca. 4 read the place thou shalt finde the words: or else let this be vntrue.

The B. of Saris.

Of mingling water with wine, superstition only except, no man maketh any great accompt.

Harding.

The .91. vntruth. The old fathers make great accompt of it.

Dering.

If M. Harding will presse vponupon these wordes, no man maketh any great accompt, then he might hauehave said, I and my felowes make great accompt of it, therfore some body dothe it, and by this meanes he might hauehave had many witnesses of his saying, and so his vntruthe had bene the surer. If he will not so force the words, why doth he apply them vntounto the olde fathers? By this it appeareth he writeth, not alwayes with the best aduisement. But now he doth M. Iuel great wrong, and racketh his words to that, he neuer ment. He speaketh of him self, and other, that at this day professe Gods religion, & saith that were it not for feare of superstition, we would not greatly stick to mingle water with the wine, and for proofe that M. Iuel ment thus, let his boke be iudge. He alleageth Cyprian, and Iustine, and farther saith that certaine olde Fathers force it muche, which words folow immediatly. Reade his Replie.Reply. Fo. 34. Then what shame is it to ascribe that to M. Iuel for an vntruthe, which him selfe did neuer speake nor meane. Belike these vntruthes goe slowly forward, when M. Harding is enforced to chalenge that, which was neuer sayd.

The B. of Saris.

Neither Christ nor any of his Disciples euer gaue commaundement of it, neither was it at any time vniuersally receiued.

Harding.

The .92. vntruthe. Christ commaunded it.

The .93. vntruthe. It hath bene vniuersally receiued.

Dering.

Note good reader this hasty quoting of vntruthes, and the slender profe, and, thou shalt soone espie, that M. Harding hath more desire of his number, than regarde of any substaunce. Héere are two vntruthes in a line. The first: Christ, saith he, commaunded that water should be mingled with the wine. This bolde asseueration concerning Christes doing, doth ask a sure proofe. For bothe we were vnthankful, if we would not folow his doing, and the daunger were great, in leauing his example. But in all the Euangelists it is plaine, that our Sauior Christ commaunded no such thing. Then how doeth M. Harding proue this? Forsoth saithe he, Cyprian and the sixth generall councell séeme to say it came from the Apostles. But bicause this is but a gesse, and little worth, he alleageth Clement, who saithe plainely Christ did it, and this beginneth to describe his ministration of the cup.Constit. apo. lib. 8. ca. 17. Likewise mingling the cup of wine, and water, and Consecrating it, he gaue it vntounto them. &c. Now if this Clement be of good aucthoritie, the matter is cleare. But M. Iuel hath already shewed that his authoritie is no more worthe than Abdias, Hippolytus, Amphilochius and his other felowes, and héere himself doth quite confound himself, in that otherwise then all the Euangelists, and S. Paule doe, he describeth a new fashion of the Lords supper. S. Paule saithe,Gal. 1. he that preacheth any other Gospel than this, let him be accursed. This of Clements is an other Gospel thā Paule preached, and therefore in this great light of the true Gospel that now shineth) accursed be he, that will folowe all Clements doctrine. Sith therfore this is the proofe of this vntruthe, Clement saith it, this shalbe our aunswere for the discharge of it. Master Iuel saith nay a man of more learning, better religion, godlier life, and greater credite, than euer y^e bastard Clement was. The second vntruth héere noted is, that it hath bene generally receiued to poure water in the wine. Yet Scotus saith it is not necessary,3. Par. Init. q. 74. as M. Iuel hath shewed. And likewise so saith Thomas & certain other. Also Mary coū ter…et Pope Alexander in his first Decretall Epistle, saith it must be done,Ius. Ap. 2. ad Ant. Ire. lib. 5. Cypri. ad Cornel. bicause bothe came out of Christes side. But let these doctors go. This I graūt that Iustinus Martyr, Iraeneus, and Cyprian, who aboue other in this are most earnest, do all séeme to enforce it, but bicause the scripture hathe not expressed it, we must beware how we make it necessary, and for that occasion, though in the Latine church it be very auncient, yet in our Church we doe not vse it. But for this vntruth where M. Harding saithe it hathe bene generally receiued, that is more rashly affirmed, than sufficiently proued. Scotus saythe, that in his time the Gréekes vsed it not,In. 4. sent. dis. 11. q. 6. Can. 33. long before him the people of Armenia vsed it not, as appeareth in this sixth generall councell alleaged by M. Harding, and by sundry other recordes, and further many yeares before that time, Chrysostome said of those words of our sauior Christ, I will drinke no more of the fruit of the vine.Math 26. &c. that he would with those words, take away the pernitious heresie of suche as vsed water in the mysteries. Yet saith M. Harding it hath bene generally receiued. With as good a …orage, and as muche truthe as Pope Eugenius saith the same, but he must pardon vsus,In decretis Eugen. papae. he may not score vp vntruthes vponupon his owne credite, we wil neither beleue the Pope, nor him neither, except they bring their proofes. And thus muche of this vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

M. Harding saith this mixture is necessary to the sacrament.

Harding.

The .94. vntruthe. I say not it is necessary.

Dering.

Euen now he said it was commaunded by Christ, nowe he saith it is not necessary. Marke well his sayings and lay them together, and thou shalt easily consider of these vntruthes, if we likewise thought Christes commaundement not necessary to be obserued, when he saith, accipite, edite. We might aforde M. Harding his priuate Masse.

The B. of Saris.

Scotus saith it is not necessary.

Harding.

The .95. vntruthe. Scotus saith not so.

Dering.

Wel said yet Anaxagoras, snow is not white. Scotus hath the very words, sée the place in. 4. sent. dist. 11. q. 6. Now cōcerning this mingling of wine & water, bicause so many vntruthes are made about it, it shall not be amisse to speake somwhat of it. First as touching these mē thēselues, how they are affected, we may partly gather by these vntruthes in the .94. vntruth, M. Iuel saith, that M. Harding maketh this mixture necessary. It is not so saith M. Harding. I say not it is necessary. In this vntruth M. Iuel saith, y^t Scotus maketh this mixture not necessary. It is not so saith M. Hard, he maketh it necessary. By this it is plaine, y^t Scotus & M. Harding do not agrée. But it may be that these hasty vntruthes want some cōsideration. Let that aduauntage goe, and let vsus consider the thing. We hauehave no expresse commaundement for it. That Christe gaue only wine, it may wel appeare by that is written. I wil drink no more of this fruit of the vine.Math. 26. &c. for the vsage of it, if it were left frée, it might be had, but when they made it a matter of such waight, it was necessary to stop y^e great outrage. But let vsus sée how they proue that this mixture shold be made of wine and water, Quia vtrumque ex Christi latere profluxisse dicitur, De conse. dist. 2. can. Alexand. pap. Epist. 1.bicause bothe issued out of Christes side. True it is water and bloud issued out of Christ side, but this is a poore reason to mingle water and wine in this Sacrament, when Christ did celebrate his supper, before his precious side was pearced. That which S. Iohn testifieth héere, that water and bloud issued out of his side,Iohn. 19.34. Iohn. 15. the same he writeth in his Epistle, that Christ came with water and bloud. Teaching vsus héereby that Christ is the true satisfaction for our sinnes, and the true water of regeneration to make vsus cleane, and without spot before his father. For the forgiuenesse of our sinnes, and the purifying of our soules were figured in the lawe by sacrifices, and by washings. In y^e sacrifices the bloud did purge sinnes, and was the attonement appointed to pacifie Goddes wrathe. The washings were testimonies of the true cleanenesse of the minde, and remedies to doe away the filthinesse of our fleshe. Now least our faith should abide still in those Elements. S. Iohn dothe witnesse, that in Christ it is accomplished, what so euer was wanting in those outwarde Ceremonies. And for a token of that fulnesse of grace in Christ, that in him is found, all that reconciliation figured in the law, either by bloud or water, he writeth that out of his side issued both bloud and water. By the bloud he hath purged vsus from our sinnes, and done out the handwriting of ordinaunce,Col 2.14. Ebr. 9.13. that was against vsus, and fastened it vponupon the Crosse. And that as Paule saith, not by the bloud of Goates, and calues, but by his owne pretious bloud gushing out of his side, by which he is entred into the holy place, which is heauen, and is become the tabernacle, the sacrifice, and the priest, and hath obtained eternall redemption for vsus. By the water we are assured that this benefite doth come vntounto vsus, bothe bicause by water we be regenerate, and also bicause it signifieth the people,Apoc. 17.13. so that this miracle of bloud, and water in the death of our sauior Christ, is the performance of that, which God had promised by his Prophet, saying. In that day shalbe a fountaine opened to the house of Dauid, and to the inhabitants of Ierusalem for sinne, and for vncleanesse. And thus by this water,Zach. 15.1. and bloude gushing out of the side of our Sauior, we are taught two especiall pointes of the Christian faithe, the one, that by Christ alone all sinnes are purged, the other, that in the new Testament we hauehave but two Sacraments, the one of the Lordes death, the other of Baptisme, which two resembled in this bloud, and water, hauehave in them the whole mysterie of our full redemption. And thus the remembrance of this same place is the greatest comfort, that a Christian soule can hauehave in the world. But Lord those Papists, which peruert Gods scriptures, what Doctrine hauehave they gathered of this comfortable saying? First that we must hauehave water mingled with y^e wine in the Chalice, which in this place, be it neuer so ancient, yet it hath no ground at all. But they goe farther than this, they say that the soldiers name was Lungis, bicause it is written foreign. And least there should want any thing to make vp the tale, they say, that he was strokē blind, and then by this bloud and water he receiued his sight againe,Lege vincēt. lib. 7. cap. 47 and so was conuerted, wherupon they hauehave made him a Saint, and so now we may kepe the feast of S. Lungis the blinde Knight. Yet sure suche canonising is worthe as little mony, as these vntruthes had muche idle labor.

The B. of Saris.

Now to reueale the secretes of M. Hardings mysteries, touching the same, that one drop, or two must be poured on the ground.

Harding.

The .96. vntruthe. The pouring of the water on the ground, is no parte of our mysteries.

Dering.

When M. Harding cannot defende their too beastly vsage of Gods holy sacraments: he thinketh he can salue the whole matter with Hick scorner, and saying that we belie their mysteries, and I pray M. Hue railer, that please your self so wel with Hicke scorner, is this no parte of your mysteries? Can you now deny them? Be ye ashamed of them? It skilleth not greatly what you think of this. The misterie of iniquitie, that so long hath wrought in your sinagoge, hath brought many moe abhominations into the Churche of God, all which the Lord shall abolishe with the brightnesse of his worde. Whether you make great a doe about these things héere alleaged, let your Doctors be the iudges. Read Scotus in sent. 4. dist. 11. qu. 6. Biel in. 4. sent. dist. 11. qu. 2. & in can. miss. lect. 35. & all your other Doctors entreating the same matter. Yet whether one, or two drops, and no moe, must be poured downe or no, I cō fesse I do not know. But why do you stand so in this point? It is a very learned doubt in respect of their other folish questions. Biel disputeth whether the Priest at Masse doe consecrate all the bread in the market,In Can. lec. 35. and all the wine in the sellers, and concludeth, that if he stande so as he may sée it, and meaneth to doe it, he dothe no doubt consecrate eueryevery whit. But now aske Gabriel Biel an other question, how shall the Priest doe to take all the bread in the market in his hand, as the Masse booke requireth of that, which shall be consecrate. This is an other doubt, which M. Hardings Doctors would surely hauehave discussed, if they had heard it.In. 4. sent. dis 8. q. 2. Scotus asketh what if the priest die before he speake all the words, how shall then consecration goe forewarde? Other aske what if a droppe of wine hang on the outside of the Chalice, whether is that consecrate? and what if the wine doe fréese in the Chalice, and what if the Priest at Masse do remember, that when he washt his mouth in the morning, a drop of water wēt downe his throte, whether should he receiue none, sith he had broken his fast, or whether should he let all alone. Other aske whether Christ be in the Pix, euen as he was on the Crosse, with his clothes and crowne of thornes about his head. And what should I recite all, which are almost infinite. A thousand such vnreuerent questions, they hauehave disputed in whole volumes. Yet now sayth M. Harding, they be none of our mysteries. Belike he doth yet but hobbe, & roue, he will not go roundly with his Lord God the Pope. But happy were he, if as he refuseth these vaine questions, so he wold renounce that whole adulterous religion.

The B. of Saris.

Nowe it appeareth, that the Churche is not yet resolued vponupon one intention. For the intention of the Churche of Rome, is to worke transubstantiation of breade, and wine: the Greeke Church had neuer that intention, as is plaine by the Councell of Florence. The intention of the Church of Rome is to Consecrate with Christes words. The intention of the Greeke Churche, is to Consecrate with prayers.

Harding.

The .97. vntruth. The Church is resolued vponupon one intention.

The .98. vntruthe. The church of Rome intendeth not Transubstantiation.

The .99. vntruth. This is not plaine by the Councel of Florēce.

The .100. vntruthe. The Greeke church dothe not consecrate vvith prayers.

Dering.

Now M. Hardings vntruthes go roundly forward. If this haste may hauehave good spéede, I warrant him his number. But if this haste doe make waste, he is neuer a whit the neare. Let vsus sée then how these vntruths are gathered. The first is this. The Church is agréed vponupon the Priests intent. But this can not be so, if the Gréeke Church, and the Church of Rome doe not agrée, which is the .2. vntruthe. And they can not agrée, if the one will hauehave transubstantiation, the other will not hauehave it, which is the third vntruthe. And they will hauehave the one Transubstantiation, the other not, if the one doe consecrate with these wordes, this is my body, the other with prayers, which is the .4. vntruthe. Then thus hang these vntruthes. If this last be true, that the Gréeke Church dothe consecrate with prayers, the thirde is true, that it intendeth not Transubstantiation. And the second is true, that it hath no suche intent, as the Church of Rome hath, and the first is true, that these churches are not resolued in this intent. Now consider I beséeche thée, good Reader, what manner of vntruthes these are, that notwithstanding their great number, are yet so smal in value, that if but one be proued true, all .iiij. must be graū ted. Sure thou must néedes confesse that M. Harding, who in his Epistle would so faine shoote at hobs, and rouers, yet at this marke he hath had so good deliuery, that he hathe farre ouershot him selfe, and his whole commendation is no more worthe, than that praise in Horace of a babling Poete,Hor. in art. Poet. qui variare potest rem prodigialiter vnam, which cā turne a true sentence into a great many lies. For proofe of this last vntruthe, on which the other hang, we hauehave the plaine wordes of the Councel of Florence alleaged by M. Iuel, where it is shewed, that in the Gréekes mynisterie after the words of Christ pronounced, this is my body, they make this prayer,Conc. Florēt. sess. vlt. fac panem hunc honorabile corpus Christi tui. &c. make this breade the honourable body of thy Christ. By this prayer it is manifest, that these wordes, this is my body, being pronounced before, did not worke Transubstantiation. But bicause it hath pleased M. Harding in to great a zeale of his number, to score vp vntruthes thus vnwisely, least his friends should thinke the matter vnsufficiently answered, we wil say somwhat of them in order, euen as M. Harding noteth them, and I doubt not but to the indifferent reader, they shall one of them sufficiently confute an other. First saith M. Harding, the Church is resolued on the Priests entent. But that is very false. For the Gréeke Church, and the Church of Rome hauehave not one intēt. The Greke Church, as is said, doth consecrate with prayers. The Church of Rome with hoc est enim corpus meum. The Gréeke Church maketh more accompte of the worthy receiuing, than of Consecration.Conc. Flo. sess. vlt. De consec. dist. 2. quiae corpus. Chrysost. in. 6. Ioh. Biel in. 4. sent. dist. 9. q. 2. d. The Churche of Rome thinketh we ought to hauehave more regarde of Consecration, than of the worthy receiuing. I leaue out other differences which are almost infinite. This is inough to proue our purpose. Secondarily saithe M. Harding, the Church of Rome entendeth not Transubstantiation. What he entended in this vntruthe, I know not. For my parte wold God M. Iuel said héere vntrue and that that Romish Church would leaue of that presumptuous entent. Thirdly saith M. Harding, the Gréeke Church meaneth transubstantiation. And this is very straunge for a learned man to speake suche repugnances. First y^t the church of Rome intendeth not transubstantiation. Againe, that the Gréeke Church doth intend transubstantiation. And thirdly, y^t they two intende one thing, when M. Harding with all his wrangling, can make these vntruthes agrée, sure we wil subscribe. Now resteth a little to be considered of the Councel of Florence, whether it may appeare by it, that the Churche of the Grecians acknowledge no transubstantiation. Thus it stoode. When the Latines in that assembly, required that they might entreate of transubstantiation.Conc. Florēt. Ann. 1439. The Grekes made answere, sine totius orientalis ecclesiae authoritate quaestionem aliam tractare non possimus, without the consent of all the East Church, we can meddle with no other question. &c. Héere be the Reader neuer so simple, he must thinke thus muche. If this article of transubstantiation were so Catholike, as they will make vsus beleue, how commeth it to be called so ofte in controuersie in generall Councell. And againe, if the Grecians did accompte it as Catholike, and were resolued in it, what meant they, that they would not subscribe to so highe a point of Christian religion, sure this was their meaning, they knew this transubstantiation was but a Romish deuise, and therefore they would▪ not yelde vntounto it. And thus muche of these hasty vntruthes.

The B. of Saris.

The .13. Diuision. But if Cyril neuer spake word of the Masse, how is he heere brought in to proue the Masse?

Harding.

The .101. vntruthe. Cyril is not brought to proue the Masse.

Dering.

But he should proue priuate Masse, or else what maketh he héere. For of that the question is moued. And this is a very hard case, that M. Harding must lose his vntruthe, or else confesse he speaketh not to the purpose.

The B. of Saris.

Neither may we thinke that Christes body, must grossely, and bodily be receiued into our bodies.

Harding.

The .102. vntruthe. We must beleue it.

Dering.

As maister Harding hath forsaken Gods Religion, and is fallen againe to Poperie, so it séemeth also he hath forsaken his learning, and beginneth to make vntruthes with his follie. This is one of the chiefest articles, for which we hauehave forsaken their vnfaithfull Churche. As ofte as we repeate this, we conclude the thing, which lieth in controuersie betwene vsus. This is our professed opinion, and vponupon the trial of it by good and sufficient aucthoritie, if it be proued against vsus, Maister Iuel is ready to subscribe. Then what meaneth maister Harding? Or what maner of vntruthe is this? Or who can accompte it for true, and plaine dealing, when vponupon good ground we shewe forthe our opinion, and he scoreth vp the question for an vntruthe? He shal doe well to reproue it, before he make anymoe vntruthes of this. Reade the .104. vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

S. Cyprian saith, it is meate not for the belly, but for the minde.

Harding.

The .103. vntruthe. S. Cyprian saith not so.

Dering.

If M. Harding and his Popishe felowes had falsified the Doctors, no otherwise than M. Iuel héere falsifieth S. Cyprian, then in a little chaunge of words, we should hauehave had their meaning faithfully deliuered vntounto vsus, and bastard bokes such as they knew not, had neuer bene ascribed vntounto them. But thanks be to God, who hath now lightned vsus, least suche vngodly writings vnderunder godly names should deceiue vsus, as touching this vntruthe, I graunt the words are not in that treatise entituled de coena domini. But whether the author say the same thing in sense, let him selfe witnesse. M. Iuel alleaging no Latine words, but folowing the sense, saith thus, it is meat not for the belly, but for the minde. The wordes in Cyprian are these. Sicut panis communis, quem quotidie edimus, De coena domini.vita est corporis: ita panis iste supersubstantialis, vita est animae, & sanitas mentis. As the common bread, which we eate daily, is the life of the body: so this bread supersubstantiall is the life of the soule, and the health of the minde, and what is héere falsified by M. Iuel? Or what is worthy blame in this allegation? Yet M. Harding taketh this smal occasion to finde fault with his printed sermon, with his replie, and with them, that, as he saith, patched togither the Apologie. For the printed sermon, it is well confirmed by the Replie, and the Replie is not yet found blameable, notwithstanding this Reioinder, the Apologie, that he liketh to terme patched, now after the time, that God had apointed, it doeth not want my defence, the booke is pretious, and is defended by suche a Iuell, that all the treasuries in the world, God make him thankful, wil not buy his gifts, & therfore M. Hardings words cā not hurt him.

The B. of Sarisb.

Christ is set forth, not to be receiued with the mouth, for that as Cyrill saith, were a grosse imagination.

Harding.

The .104. vntruthe. Christ must be receiued with the mouth.

The .105. vntruthe. Cyrill saith not so.

Dering.

This is one with the .102. vntruthe. Master Hardings transubstantiation standeth him in very good stead to multiply his vntruthes. And yet if he had well considered it, it had not bene worth his doubling. I hauehave spoken somewhat héereof in the Epistle. Concerning this other vntruth, M. Harding, saith he knoweth not what he graunteth. These are Cyrillus wordes, but he gesseth at an other sense, and vponupon that surmise quoteth a new vntruthe. Dothe he claime so muche to his owne vnderstanding, that if he say it, it must be so, though y^e words be contrary? Before we build of his saying, it shalbe néedeful for him to win some better credite. Sée the place & thou wilt beare witnesse, that it is truely alleaged.

The B. of Saris.

The .14. Diuision. For the partie excommunicate being a priest, might say he wold say Masse, and so receiue the Communion, euen with the bishop, of whome he were excommunicate.

Harding.

The .106. vntruthe. The Priest excommunicate, might not say Masse lawfully.

Dering.

No sure, whether he were excommunicate, or no, he might not say it lawfully, neither by Gods law, nor his holy Euangelies, when M. Iuel saith this, I will subscribe.

The B. of Sarisb.

Now if M. Hardings principle stand for good, that the priest, saying his priuate Masse, may receiue the Communion with all others in other places. &c.

Harding.

The .107. vntruthe. I say not he may receiue with others.

Dering.

M. Harding is past shame, wold God, as I hauehave said often, he were not past grace, if these be not his words. Therefore that one may Communicate with an other,Hard. diuis. 14 though they be not togither in one place, it may be proued by good authoritie, then will I subscribe, if they be his words, then iudge thou of his doing.

The B. of Saris.

Heere marke good Christian reader, then they Communicated, saith Irenaeus, when they met in the Church.

Harding.

The .108. vntruthe. Irenaeus saith not so, reade it againe, and marke it better.

Dering.

These are Irenaeus words, foreign. These words, if as M. Harding requesteth, we reade them againe, and marke them better, then no doubt they are thus in English. These things being thus, they Communicated together, and in the Churche Anicetus gaue to Polycarpus the Eucharist. Héere saith M. Iuel, by this it appeareth, they communicated, when they met in y^e church. That is not so saithe M. Hard. Read it once again, & marke it better. If often reading, and better marking may serue the turne, then gentle reader I craue also thy labour, read it yet once againe and marke it better. Yea read it while thou wilt, and marke it how thou canst, if this fansie of M. Hardings do but once come in thy minde, I may boldely make thée this large offer, let these all be vntruthes. His fansie is so full of foly, his imagination so vaine, his interpretation so childish, that if thou of thy self cāst finde it out, I say, as I said before, let all these vntruthes stande. Reade it I beséeche thée once againe, and marke it better. Is not this a straunge vntruthe, that no mā can espie it but M. Harding? But sith it is so, that héere can be no vntruthe without M. Hardings good instruction, let vsus aske of him, how it may be falsified. He telleth vsus of two faults, the first in the word foreign they communicated, the seconde in Englishing Eucharistia the sacrament. Mary saith he, yet I will define nothing, that is,Reioinder. Fol. 157. I will stande to neither of them. Is not this a straunge dealing, that he wil first finde fault, then will not bide by it, and yet notwithstanding wil score vp his vntruthe. If this vntruthe be vntruthe, why will he not abide by it? Or if he will not abide by it, why doth he say it is vntrue? must his priuate Masse, his halfe communion, his outlandishe prayers, his Popes supremacie, yea his vntruthes, and all be proued by paraduenture? But let it be so, what is it at the last, that héere may chance be false? this it is in the first fault about communion: peraduenture forsoth they communicated before they met. This blinde peraduenture, wer it in Cambridge or Oxford, no doubt it wold be hissed out of the scholes. The second fault found in translating, Eucharistia, y^e sacrament is this: peraduenture Eucharistia here doth signifie sacerdotale mynisterium, the priestly office. Now sure good reader this is a straunge aduenture. Eucharistia, Reioinder. Fol. 157.the priests office? Fie on such a chance, except a man had a priuiledge, to make words sound, what him listed. No mā, I trow, wold hauehave made this aduenture. But héere I must desire the reader to loke a little back, to take the better view of M. Hardings dealing, in the Epistle, where M. Harding sporteth him self with his good artillerie, he saith, he could neuer shote at this mark, that Eucharistia might be taken, not for the Sacrament, but for cōmon bread. Now either by meanes of lighter arowes, or a better loose, he shootes a great way beyōd it, & saith with a good countenance, y^• Eucharistia is no bread at al, but y^e priests office. Sure this is very vncertain shooting, and can neuer stand with a good archer. A man may shoote long at the Etymologie of y^e word, ere he bring it to this significatiō, Though he hauehave determined to say little truely: yet he shold hauehave taken héede, how he had spoken so vnwisely. That other tragicall exclamation, that Eucharistia must be taken simply for bread consecrate, bewrayeth this close dealing, that it may be taken for the Priestes office. And héere againe for a good note of M. Hardings fals dealing, we hauehave to mark, that in this place, where M. Iuell sayth Eucharistia may be taken for common bread, but yet apointed for the Communion, M. Harding doeth not quote it for an vntruthe, yet in the Epistle he noted it for a great heresie. And why doeth he thus? As it may be thought, bicause he foresawe, that to deny the Eucharist at any time to note bread, not yet consecrate, were a great preiudice to his grosse distinction, that it might signifie the Priests office, and therefore for the better conueyaunce of this absurditie, he wold not quote that an vntruth, which he had so greatly impugned before. More true dealing, and lesse vaine speaking, would better beséeme a Doctor of Diuinitie.

The B. of Saris.

Anicetus as Irenaeus saith, receiued the sacrament with Policarpus in the Church, and not, as M. Harding seemeth to say in his Inne, or hosterie.

Harding.

The .109. vntruthe. Irenaeus saith not that Polycarpus, and Anicetus communicated in the Church.

Dering.

foreign saith Orestes, forgetfulnesse of infortunate things is to be reuerenced. But M. Harding for all his wonted hobbing, hath héere farre ouershot him selfe, to note two vntruthes together, that are bothe one, if there be any distinction that may salue this matter, it were good we were informed. I think simple wittes, without long instruction, will not finde it.

Harding.

The .110. vntruthe. I seeme not to say it.

Dering.

M. Harding graunteth, that he may say they Communicated togither before they met, but not that they receiued the Sacrament, and héerein saith he,Reioinder. Fol. 158. M. Iuel deceiueth his reader. This distinction, as it is somewhat straunge, so no doubt it hath some hid vnderstanding, one had néede of Apollo, that should well interprete it. For my parte except M. Harding expoūd it, I know not what he meaneth. For M. Iuel sayeth, it séemeth to me very probable. For if M. Harding do denye that they receiued in the Churche, or in Anicetus house, or in the streat, then if they did receiue, it is most like he saythe they receiued in their Inne, if they receiued not, what is maister Harding the nearer to his Priuate Masse.

The B. of Saris.

The .16. Diuision. The Priest prayeth, and giueth thankes in the vulgare tongue.

Harding.

The .111. vntruthe. He prayeth not in the vulgare tongue of the Countrey.

Dering.

The Canon law doeth giuegive licence to answere one cauill with an other. If either that law wer worth folowing, or we would vse that libertie, is giuen vsus,Sexti. tit. 6. cupientes in glossa. we would appoint some play maker to answer this Reioinder, for such men with their great leasure, and selfpleasing wit, would finde M. Harding wrangling worke inough. Iustine in describing the order of their seruice, among other things,In Apol. 2. he telleth how the people giuegive thanks, and say Amen to the ministers prayer, & so them selues must make their prayers in their vulgare tongue. This saith M. Harding is not true, if he mean by y^e vulgar tongue, the common speache of the countrey. But if he meane the one of the thrée learned tongues, Latine, Greeke, or Hebrue, then M. Harding graunteth they had seruice in the vulgar tongue. Héere I craue of the reader but indifferent iudgemēt, to think of this vntruthe, as occasion is ministred. For proofe that it is vntrue, héere is nothing brought but this distinction, that the vulgare tongue signifieth either that, which eueryevery Countrey speaketh, or else the Greke, Latine, or Hebrue tōgue. And what a miserable distinction is this? who euer hard that the vulgar tongue did signifie any other than the mother tongue of eueryevery countrey? Sure this boke is a boke of distinctions, it is no reioinder. Let him shew in any booke in the world, wher vulgare hath this signification, that he dreameth of, and let him hauehave all his vntruthes.

The B. of Saris.

He said before, that eueryevery priuate Masse was common.

Harding.

The .112. vntruthe. I say no where, that eueryevery priuate Masse is common, but that eueryevery Masse is common.

Dering.

This is one of those vntruthes, which M. Hard. saithe is very manifest, & can by no meanes be colored. But good reader be not dismaide, it is soone iustified how so euer M. Harding misliketh of it. Mark but only this graunt, which he maketh, and to quite that reason, which in the .70. vntruthe, he would hauehave considered, I will make an other héere for him to consider: y^e proposition shalbe his own: the assumpsion shalbe cōfessed of al men. The cōclusion shal folow in good moode, & figure. M. Harding saith eueryevery Masse is common. But eueryevery priuate Masse is a Masse. Ergo, he sayth eueryevery Priuate Masse is common.

I doe thinke M. Harding did not orderly consider of this vntruth, when he made it. Sure I am, this argument is good, and by no distinction cā be answered. Therfore this vntruth, sauing only the necessity of his number, might wel hauehave bene spared. Read more of this vntruthe in the third vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

I alleaged all these in my sermon.

Harding.

The .113. vntruthe. He alleaged not all.

Dering.

In very many places to make vp these vntruthes, M. Harding saith of sundry aucthorities, he alleaged them not for his Masse. Now he wil néedes take in all for his purpose, when I shall better vnderstād which places be brought for his Masse, and which in vaine, then I will examine the sermon. In the meane season vnderstande thus muche. M. Iuel saith, I alleaged al these witnesses for priuate Masse. That is an impudent vntruthe saith M. Harding, he alleageth not all, that I alleage for sole receiuing. M. Hardings priuiledge serueth both wayes, either to make one word to signify diuers things, or diuers words to signifie but one thing. We hauehave heard before of his distinctions, nowe he cometh in with his coniunctions, priuate Masse, and sole receiuing, by this vntruthe are bothe one. But as M. Hardings distinctions, are in déede distinctions, that is, as I interpreate it lies, so these coniunctions are his owne coniunctions, that is, a coupling of lies together.

The B. of Saris.

This manner of Priuate receiuing at home, was not lawfull for the lay men. For it was abolished by godly Bishoppes in generall Councell.

Harding.

The .114. vntruth. The .17. Diuision. It was not abolished.

The .115. vntruthe. That councell was not generall, but prouinciall.

Dering.

These vntruthes come more fast, than truely forwarde. It was not, saith M. Harding, abolished. Lay men might receiue at home. The councel of Caesar Augusta, which M. Iuel saith thus.Ca. 3. He that receiueth the Sacrament, and doth not eat it in the Churche, let him be accursed for euer. The like Canon is also decréed in the first councel of Toledo, if any man hauing receiued the Sacrament, doe not presently eate it, velut sacrilegus propellatur, let him be driuen away as a most wicked persone.Can. 14. & Conc. tol. 11. cap. 11. Of this M. Iuel saith, the lay man might not receiue it at home. And shal we think, bicause M. Harding saith nay, that notwithstanding these cursings, yet the lay man might cary it home to receiue it? Master Hardings wrangling héere about sicke men, is not worth the answere. M. Iuel speaketh of those, that may goe to Church. It was an idle matter héere to talke of sick folkes. If M. Harding for these vntruthes, be faine to wrest plaine words into a violent sense, then the vntruthes are his owne. For this second vntruthe, me thinketh M. Harding is a very partiall man. In the .108. vntruthe he will hauehave Eucharistia so large in signification, as no man, I trow, but him selfe could imagine. In this he so presseth the word generall, that he aloweth not that which common sense teacheth. He denieth that councell to be general, bicause there was not gathered together, I know not how many Bishops out of christendome. But if M. Harding had marked it better, he should hauehave knowne it well inough, that general might be applied onelyonly to those twelue, which he saithe were there gathered together. If they did all well agrée, sure that councell was more generall, than their Chapter of Trident. If he will force the worde Oecumenicall, there is no Counsell that euer was so generall. If he will any thing restraine it, why may he not bring it downe, yea euen to twelue. This vntruthe is but a cauil, and if it were graunted, yet were M. Harding neuer the neare his priuate Masse. But bicause he saith so constantly, that that Counsell was but of .xij. Bishops in Spaine, as Peter Crab also noteth out of Isidorus, it is more, I thinke, than he is able to proue, for it is knowne that the Churche of Caesar Augusta, & Asturica Augusta, an other Citie in Spaine, and Emerica Augusta a Citie in Portingall, ioyned in al matters, and were of one felowship, so that counsaile of the other xij. Bishops, had more ouer the consent of their great Cities. This Caesar Augusta it self, otherwise called Numantia, Volat. geogr. lib. 2.was so populous a Citie, that it kept war .xiiij. yeare with the Empire of Rome. It was a Citie of so muche worthinesse for religion, that what so euer had bene determined, there the consent might well hauehave bene called generall. Prudentius dothe séeme to glory, that it was his Countrey.In Hymno 18. mart. Vinc. lib. 12. cap. 123. & alibi. In the time of Dioclesian, and Valerian, a great many of Martyrs were there put to death. This is a very pore wrangling, when sundry forain Bishops met in suche a Citie, to denie their Decrées to be agréed on in generall Counsell.

The B. of Saris.

He saith, the thing, that we receiue, is no bread, but so Tertullian saith not. His words be these, thy husbande will thinke it only bread, and not that bread, that it is called.

Harding.

The .116. vntruthe. I say it not, loke better on my words.

The .117. vntruthe. These are not Tertullians words.

Dering.

If looking better on M. Hardings words wil helpe the mater, we will not let for that. Marke good Reader, and loke diligently, these are his wordes. The thing reuerently, and deuoutly receiued,Hard. diuis. 17 before other meates, is not bread as the infidels then, and the Sacramentaries now beléeue. Looke well good reader, and for M. Hardings pleasure looke againe, doeth he not say it is not bread. How is this then vntrue? Nowe must I desire thée againe, to loke diligently, and if thou mark well, thou shalt now heare of suche a distinction, as in all this booke of distinctions there is none suche. I say saithe maister Harding,Reioinder. Fol. 163. it is not bread, I say not it is no bread: there is great difference betwéene not bread, and no bread. Sure if thou looke not maruellous narowly, thou wilt neuer vnderstand this distinction. For my parte I would surely hauehave said it, that which was not bread, had bene no bread, and that which was no bread, had sure bene not bread, and if it were not bread, it could not be any bread, and if it wer some bread, then were it not no bread. But let not bread be some bread, and no bread be not bread, and nothing be not any thing, and not any thing be some thing. As touching maister Iuell that good simple Bishop, I dare sweare for him he neuer knewe of this distinction, and so he is wrongfully charged with this vntruthe. Yet least maister Harding shoulde please him selfe too well, I must forwarne him that I can not alow well of this distinction. If he be well aduised this is a Logike rule. Aientia & negantia acerrime inter se pugnant. No things are so contrary as the affirming and denyall of the same thing. But panis non panis, bread not bread, are contradictorie, not panis, nullus panis, bread no bread. Therefore maister Hardings saying, that no bread dothe signifie more than not bread, may séeme to hauehave no Logike, and to speake not very wisely. And sure I muse how he could be ouerséene in this, considering the substaunce of it, is in supposition, about which his friendes hauehave wasted many good houres. If he hauehave forgotten their Doctrine, let him remember the verse. Particulare prius facit o generale secundum. But it may be that maister Harding, and his friendes, as they hauehave straunge deuises, so they goe about to make newe Logike, no doubt they are at some conspiracie. For maister Nicholas Saunders, whome his friendes thinke some body, maketh this very distinction in his fourth booke, of the Sacrament, and with this common conceite of not bread, and no bread, would faine hauehave an vntruthe against maister Iuell. And is it possible that these men should agrée in so great a folye, if they laid not their heades together? Well God be thanked their generall councels conclude very vnwisely.

Now resteth this other vntruthe, about Tertullians wordes, which as maister Harding saith, are falsified, bicause breade is not in the latter ende of the sentence, as master Iuell doeth alleage them. Tertullians wordes are these.Lib. 2. ad vxor. Non sciet maritus quid secreto ante omnes cibum gustes, & si scierit, panem, non illum credet esse qui dicitur. Héere saithe maister Harding, illum must not be referred to panem, and thereupon he quoteth his vntruthe. Euen as he did before for want of Logike, so it may be thought he doeth héere, through want of Latine. Illum saith he, is not referred to panem, and yet the Grammarian saith the adiectiue must be alway referred to a substantiue, except it be put substantiuely in the Neutre gender. Now if master Harding can not make illum, the Neuter gender, nor yet finde any other substantiue in the sentence, than panem, then his Grammer hath as euill hap as his Logike, and this is no vntruthe.

The B. of Saris.

The translating illum, him, meaneth that it was the very person of a man, which the woman had in hir hand.

Harding.

The .118. vntruthe. It was the person of Christ, God, and man.

Dering.

What meaneth M. Harding to wrangle? When M. Iuel saithe, he meaneth the persone of a man to be in the fourme of bread, can M. Harding vnderstand it of a mortall man? Or is the controuersie betwene vsus, whether in the sacrament be any earthly mannes body? If M. Harding would hauehave let scape this vntruthe, no man would hauehave gathered this absurd sense of M. Iuels saying. And yet if we would examine it, what manner of vntruth is this, where it is said, it is a mans body, to note it as vntrue, and say it is Christes body bothe God, and man. If it be so, yet is it a mannes body, vnlesse we deny our sauior Christ to be perfect man, suche vntruthes are sone answered.

The B. of Saris.

The story that S. Cyprian reporteth, as it sheweth the maner of keping the Sacrament, so it seemeth also to shew, that God was offended with the same.

Harding.

The .119. vntruthe. God was not offended with keping the sacrament, but with the presumption of the woman, which opened the cheast with vnworthy handes.

Dering.

Niceph. lib. 14. cap. 17.M. Iuel sheweth out of Nicephorus, that by like examples it may appeare, God was offended with that reseruing of the Sacrament. M. Harding without reason, without aucthoritie, without example of Gods word, dothe boldely pronounce vponupon Gods meaning, and saith, the example was shewed, bicause she opened hir cheast with vnworthy hands. Suche pronouncing of Gods doing should be grounded in Gods scriptures, or else suche noting of vntruthes are rash, and wicked. I graunt it is in S. Cyprian, cum manibus indignis tentasset aperire, when she assayed to open it with vnworthy handes. But whether for hir vnworthinesse God sheweth y^e miracle, that M. Harding addeth of his owne. But what if Cyprian had said this, we must not therfore hauehave beleued it. He was a good member of the Churche of God, but yet he was a man, & sometime deceiued.In serm. de elemosyna. De duplici. martyris. Lib. 1. Ep. 12 He taught that Christ made satisfaction for original sinne only, yet we know, that was a wicked opinion. He wryteth that it was in his time .6000. yeares sith the Deuill did assault man, which is a grose error. And in some places he thought not reuerently of the Maiestie of the holy Ghost. God forbid we should yelde to any thing, what so euer a good man doeth write. But it is well in this place, Cyprian saith no suche thing, as M. Harding wold hauehave him, and therfore his rashe vntruthe, is not yet proued. But to proue the contrary, and that M. Iuel saith true: we hauehave the aucthoritie of many. Our sauior Christ bad doe that, which he did, in his remembraunce. But he said vntounto his disciples, take, and eate, he said not lay vp in your chests. And so Cyprian him selfe,De coena domini. Orig. in leui. if it be Cyprian, saith likewise, recipitur, non includitur, the Sacrament is receiued, it is not shut vp. So likewise sayth Origen, panis, quem dominus dedit discipulis suis, iussit accipi, & manducari, non differri, aut seruari in crastinum. The bread, which the Lord God gaue to his Disciples, he bad them take it, and eate it. He bad them not defer it, and kepe it till to morow. Thus we sée M. Iuels saying may be sufficiently proued, and maister Hardings bolde vntruthe is without any reason.

The B. of Sarisb.

The thing which our bodily mouthe receiueth, is very breade. Both the scriptures, and also the olde Catholike fathers put it out of doubt.

Harding.

The .120. vntruthe. It is the very body of Christ.

The .121. vntruthe. The holy fathers say not that the substāce of bread remaineth.

Dering.

This first vntruthe is all one with the .74. the .102. the 104. But suche must be had, or how shal vntruthes rise. Yet reason wold, as I hauehave said, that he shold proue his transubstanciation, before he quote so fast these vntruthes. Concerning this other vntruthe, though it be one with this former, and is now .v. times repeated, that no wise man would thinke well of maister Hardings doing, yet bicause he is so well pleased with it, through his importunitie, I must néedes say somewhat, bothe for trial of his truthe, and satisfying the christian reader. First our sauiour Christ, after consecration calleth it the fruit of the vine,Math. 26.28. 1. Co. 11. Act. 2.20. and a testament, S. Paule v. times breade, and the table of the Lord, S. Luke calleth the whole Communion the breaking of bread. Theodoretus an auncient father saithe.Theod. dia. 1 Qui se ipsum appellauit vitem, illa Symbola & signa quae videntur appellatione corporis & sanguinis honorauit, naturam non mutans, sed naturae adijcit gratiam. He that called himselfe a vine, did vouchsafe to honor those tokens and signes, which are séene, with the name of his owne body, not chaunging their natures, but ioyning grace vntounto it. And againe he saythe, signa mystica post sanctificationem non recedunt a natura sua, Theod. dia. 2sed manent in priori substā tia. The mysticall signes after sanctification, doe not goe from their owne nature, but kepe the same substance that they had before, that denyeth transubstantiation. Gelasius saithe, non desinit esse substantia vel natura panis & vini, Contra Eutichen.the substaunce or nature of bread and wine ceaseth not. Vigilius saithe of Christes humanitie,Lib. 4. cont. Eutich. quando in terra fuit non erat vtique in caelo, nunc quia in caelo est non est vtique in terra, when he was on earthe, he was not in heauen, now he is in heauen, he is not therefore in earthe: and in his first boke against Eutiches, he likewise saith, abstulit de hoc mundo naturam quam susceperat a nobis, he hath taken from the worlde, that nature which he receiued of vsus. Chrysostome saithe, natura panis in sacramento remanet. Ad Caesar. Mon. Aug. serm. ad infantes. Ori. in Mat. cap. 15. Cyr. in Ioh. lib. 4. cap. 14 Iraen. lib. 4. cap. 34.The nature of breade abideth in the Sacrament. Augustine saythe, quod videtis panis est, that which you sée is breade. Origen saith, Non materia panis sed super illum dictus sermo est qui prodest. Not the matter of bread, but the worde which is spoken ouer it, dothe helpe. Cyril sayth, Christus credentibus discipulis fragmenta panis dedit. Christ gaue vntounto his beleuing disciples, the breakings of bread. Irenaeus saith, Eucharistia ex duabus naturis constat, terrena & caelesti, the Eucharist consisteth of two natures, the one earthly, which is breade, the other heauenly, which is by faith the féeding of our soules with the body of Christ. Reade maister Iuels bookes, thou shalt sée suche other aucthorities in great number. Thus thou séest Christian reader, that the Doctors beare witnesse there is the nature of bread in the sacrament: when M. Harding is able to answer these, or bring any for himself, then let the vntruthe stand.

The B. of Saris.

The .18. Diuision. This sole receiuing was an abuse, and therfore abolished.

Harding.

The .122. vntruthe. Sole receiuing in the time of persecution, was no abuse.

Dering.

Héere M. Harding doeth fréely graunt, that sole receiuing is an abuse, whē the people may freely resort vntounto the church. Where is then the priuate Masse of our time? This vntruth though it be worthe no answere, yet for want of better, it was once noted afore.

The B. of Saris.

In M. Hardings Masse, the whole people eateth by the mouthe of the priest.

Harding.

The .123. vntruthe. They eate not by the mouthe of the priest, as M. Iuel meaneth.

Dering.

M. Harding is driuen to narowe straightes, that maketh suche raw vntruths, with so many vnripe distinctions. In the former vntruthe he putteth in, in the time of persecution. In this vntruthe as M. Iuel meaneth. His helping hande must come to, or there is no vntruth to be found. This is M. Hard. plaine doctrine, the people doe receiue by the mouthe of the priest. If he can make two senses of these words, his doubtful speaking is full of deceitfull meaning. But this is too shamelesse wrangling. No man in the world doth think the people stād in the priests mouth. We know he meaneth some spiritual maner of cōmunicating. Be his doctrin neuer so wicked, yet we do sée what is his vngodly meaning, & eueryevery childe seeth this can be no vntruthe, there can be but one meaning of these woords.

The B. of Saris.

The .19. Diuision. Here M. Harding interlaceth other mater, of the office of wedlocke.

Harding.

The .124. vntruthe. It is S. Ierome that interlaceth it, it is not I.

Dering.

Marke gentle reader this vntruthe, M. Iuel saith M. Harding interlaceth it. M. Harding saith no, they are S. Ieromes woords. He is so farre gone in straunge distinctions, he hathe forgotten plaine Englishe, what though the woords be S. Ieromes, yet this interlacing of them in his treatise, is either his owne, or else some of his friendes, that might helpe out with his booke.

The B. of Saris.

Thus saith M. Harding, Erasmus gathereth priuate Masse out of the scriptures.

Harding.

The .125. vntruthe. I say it not.

Dering.

M. Harding can quote no vntruthe, but if he either wrangle, or make a lie, and in this place he dothe bothe. His words are these, read them who will. Thus dothe Erasmus gather priuate, or as M. Iuel iesteth,Hard. diuis. 16 single Communion out of the Scriptures. If M. Harding denye this, he lieth. If he say he meaneth not by the Communion the Masse, he wrāgleth, and reproueth his owne doing of foly. For why maketh he this conclusion, if it proue not his Masse. So what euer he meaneth, this vntruthe is a wrangling lie.

The B. of Saris.

The .22. Diuision. Maister Harding vseth a straunge kinde of Logicke, he pretendeth priuate Masse, and concludeth single Communion.

Harding.

The .126. vntruthe. I pretende not to proue priuate Masse, heere principally.

Dering.

Héere principally must helpe one vntruthe, but bicause M. Iuel doeth not say principally, let maister Harding put it in his bosome, and then it is no vntruthe. He saith nothing else for proofe of this vntruthe, but falleth out with maister Iuel, for rebuking the slouthfull Cardinals, and Priests of Rome. How be it he néede not greatly be offended. For the Pope hathe prouided well for them, as is already shewed. Say what we will, an accusation may hardly passe against a Cardinall without thrée score and foure witnesses, nor against a Deacon without seuen and twenty, if they wil kéepe any modesty, or come not on the market hill, I warrant them for other places, they be safe inough.

The B. of Saris.

The .24. Diuision. Maister Harding gathereth this conclusion.

Harding.

The .127. vntruthe. I gather not this conclusion.

Dering.

Maister Harding would faine shift off this argument, and his poore friend maister Rastell hathe done for him in this behalfe, what he can, but it will not be. For aunswere to this vntruth, a long discourse is néedelesse. For the simple can not conceiue it, and the learned doe sée it well inough. All maner of argumentes what so euer the propositions be, they may be reduced to the first figure. But this can be none otherwise reduced. Therefore this is maister Hardings argument, and let him neuer deny it. For being in the Hypothetical fourme of propositions, it may argue a will to deceiue, but it can not empaire the credite of his learning. This is sooner diminished by denying this argument, than by making it. What the argument is, reade the Replie. Fol. 58.

The B. of Saris.

These examples maister Harding hath brought, to proue his Masse.

Harding.

The .128. vntruthe. I brought them not to proue the Masse directly.

Dering.

In the .126. vntruthe, he saide he brought not these aucthorities to proue the Masse principally: nowe he saithe they proue it not directly. Hadde it bene for espying, he might hauehave made many vntruthes of this, he might hauehave sayde, they proue not the Masse immediatly, orderly, especially, chiefly, onelyonly, effectually, purposedly, and so made many lyes, as well as principally, and directly, and so make of none a double lie. But héere by the way we may note, that maister Hardings reasons are little better than maister Iuel maketh them, when he himselfe dothe so oft say they proue not his purpose.

The B. of Saris.

That it might seeme lawfull for a priest to say priuate Masse, he hath brought in example of lay men, wemen, sicke folke, and boyes.

Harding.

The .129. vntruthe. It is not so, I brought them not to proue the Masse.

Dering.

Now good reader marke these thrée vntruthes, and sée how thou likest them, the .126. they proue not the Masse principally, the .128. they proue it not directly, and this vntruthe they proue it not at all. Now to giuegive him one vntruthe more, and make vp a messe, sure what so euer M. Iuel say, they proue it but a little, and therfore M. Hardings answere, is worthy little commendations.

The B. of Saris.

The .25. Diuision. He defaceth the holy Communion.

Harding.

The .130. vntruthe. I deface not the Communion, but the Geneuian Communion.

Dering.

M. Harding hath nowe gotten the habite, he can say nothing without a distinction. But all auaileth not, God hauehave the praise. Maister Iuel meaneth that Communion, which is ministred as well at Geneua, as in other godly places, where the adulterous and Romish sacraments are banished. Therefore this is no vntruth, it is our open professiō. That Communion which M. Harding blameth, is the holy Communion of the Lords body and bloud, and the effectuall representation of his deathe.

The B. of Sarisb.

Christes example in doing, and commanndement to doe the same, may not be taken for a shew, or accident, but for the effecte, and substaunce of his supper.

Harding.

The .131. vntruthe. Christes whole example is not of the substaunce of the Sacrament.

Dering.

Marke wel M. Iuels words, and M. Hardings vntruthes, and thou wilt thinke the Cocatrice, doth no more infecte eche thing that she breatheth on, than maister Harding dothe those words, which he would confute. Maister Iuel saith, Christes example in doing, and commaundement to do the same, is of the substaunce of the supper. And who wil not say, that that is necessary, which Christ hath bothe done, and commaunded to be done. Then how is this vntrue? Maister Harding putteth in (whole,) and taketh out (commandement to doe the same) and maketh maister Iuel say thus: Christes whole example is of the substance of the supper, and in déede this is false. For Christ ministred after supper, and sitting, and with common bread, and in an vsual drinking cuppe, and in an house, which is neither necessary, nor al conuenient for our time. Thus we sée what these vntruthes are, altogether forced with maister Hardings lies, sometime he addeth, sometime he detracteth, that of all these vntruthes we may wel say it stil, the number is so great, the substaunce cannot be good.

The B. of Saris.

The sacrifice of the crosse, is called the daily sacrifice.

Harding.

The .132. vntruthe. It is not called so, as you meane.

Dering.

This vntruthe is all one with the .75. and there maister Harding saith simply, that the fathers call not the sacrifice of the crosse, the daily sacrifice. Here vponupon better aduise, he reuoketh his absolute assertion, and doeth qualifie it with maister Iuels meaning. So if maister Harding doe not truely gather maister Iuels meaning vponupon a false surmise, he hathe made two vntruthes. But bicause we are come againe, to mention of this Sacrifice, I will shew thée, what is our Sacrifice for the purging of our sinnes. First, for thy better instruction, thou must learne wherein standeth the controuersie betwixt the Papists, and vsus. They say, they doe daily in their Masse offer vp Christ vntounto his father, a propitiation for our sinnes. We say, that Christ hath purged vsus from our sinnes, and that with the Sacrifice of his owne precious bodie, and bloud, but that sacrifice Christ himself did once make vponupon the Crosse, neither can any mortall man, offer him any more. Now if we can shewe, that Christes reall body is no more offered vntounto his father, then is not only this no vntruthe, but all maister Hardings religion is deuelishe, and wicked. Let vsus sée then, what the scriptures doe teache vsus, vntill the time that our sauior Christ did die. This Sacrifice is often mentioned, that it should be made when he had once died, it is neuer mentioned, but as already done. Before he was conceiued in his mothers wombe, the angell said his name should be Iesus.Math. 1.21. For he should saue his people from their sinnes. When he was born, he was called the saluation, which God had prepared before the face of all people.Luk. 2.32. When he was Christened, Iohn said of him, beholde the Lambe of God,Ioh. 1.29. which taketh away the sinnes of the worlde. The Lambe in this place, after the Hebrue phrase, dothe signifie the sacrifice, or the offering. And Christ him selfe: When I shall be exalted, I will draw all vntounto my selfe. By these and all those other places, which are of the Passion of Christ, it is manifest, that the time was appointed, when this sacrifice should be once made. But when this sacrifice was done: Christ said vponupon the crosse, consummatum est, all was finished, and in token, that there was no more sacrifice to be made for sinne, the baile of the temple did rende from the toppe to the foote. Nowe after this sacrifice once finished, not one title in the whole scriptures of any propiciatorie sacrifice to come, but vponupon this one, and once made repentaunce, must be preached to all the world,Luke. 24. Mat. 16. and forgiuenesse of sinne, with this promise annexed, that whosoeuer doeth beleue, and is Baptised, shall be saued. Thus we sée from the beginning of our iourney, vntill we come to the place, which our sauior hath prepared for vsus in heauen, we hauehave no sacrifice to passe by, but that alone, which Christ made vponupon the Crosse, that alone is called daily, bicause it is an euerlasting intercession for vsus vntounto his father. What soeuer Sacrifices the papacie hath inuented, they are beside this, and they are nothing else but snares, which the Deuill hathe laid to entrappe our soules, and call vsus from the only trust in Christes merites. An other proofe that the sacrifice of the Crosse may onelyonly be called daily, is well declared in all the wrytings of the Apostles, where no one time either priest, or altare, or sacrifice, or oblation is mentioned, but onelyonly in a spirituall vnderstanding. You be made a spiritual house,1. Pet. ….5. a holy priesthode to offer vp spirituall sacrifice vntounto God, saith S. Peter. Apo. 1.6.5.10 Rom. 12.1.He hathe made vsus kings and priestes vntounto God, euen his Father, saith S. Ihon, and S. Paule doeth call our bodies a liuing sacrifice, holy, and acceptable vntounto God. And againe, Christ our passeouer is Sacrificed for vsus,1. Cor. 5.8 therefore let vsus kéepe the feast, not with olde leauen, neither in the leauen of malitiousnesse, or wickednesse, but with the vnleauened bread of sinceritie, and truthe. And to the Hebrues we hauehave an altare,Hebr. 13.20. Ibidem. 15. of which it is not lawfull for them to eate that serue in the tabernacle. And againe, let vsus offer the sacrifice of praise alwayes vntounto God, that is the fruite of our lippes, which confesse his name. In diuers other places bothe by the prophets and apostles, we be taught that these are the onelyonly Sacrifices left vntounto vsus in the Newe Testament. Then what desperate boldnesse is it, for vsus to make our selues new sacrifices without the worde of God, the instruction of the holy Ghost, or any coloure of sufficient aucthoritie. I néede not adde how it fighteth directly with the Scriptures. They say the priest doeth offer vppe Christ. But Christ neuer saith, he is offred vp by any other, but by himselfe. I doe sanctifie my selfe for them, and I doe giuegive my life for my shéepe.Ioh. 17. Ioh. 10. And againe. I doe giuegive my life, and againe, I will take it, no man dothe take it from me, but I will giuegive it of mine owne will. And Paule saith, he that loued me, and gaue himselfe for me.Galat. 2. Hebru. 10. And to the Hebrues in the beginning of this booke, it is written of me that I shold do thy wil O God, this same is often shewed in the .5.9. and .10. Chapters to the Hebrues, but in al the scripture not one word, that euer Christ is offred by other. They say he is offred daily, but in all the scriptures he is said to be offred but once. In that he died saith Paule, Rom. 6.10. Hebr. 10.he died once, and to the Hebrues with one oblation he made them perfect for euer. And in the same Epistle the vij. Chapter, Christ is said to be suche a priest, as néeded not to make moe sacrifices for sinnes, or offer himselfe daily. For he did once sanctifie vsus. And againe, by his owne bloud, he entred once into the holy place.Hebr. 9.12. And againe, in the ende of the world, he appeared once to put away sinne by the sacrifice of himselfe. And againe, Christ hath once suffred to take away sinnes.Hebr. 10. And againe, hauing made one Sacrifice for sinne, he sittes for euer at the right hand of his father. And in conclusion, the scripture taketh away all other sacrifice, and saithe, where remission of sinne is, there is no more Oblation for sinne. Yet wil they néedes hauehave a daily sacrifice. What a miserable religion is that, which in matters of the greatest waight, hath not one word to vphold it in the scriptures. But as the thing it selfe is the sinke of Idolatrie, so marke it wel, and thou shalt sée how wickedly they vse it. Our sacrifice say they, is the applying of that sacrifice which Christ made vponupon the crosse. And hereupon M. Harding doth often say, that no Masse is priuate, bicause it is made for all the people, but examine this by the worde of God, and sée how it agreeth. The scripture saith, the benefites purchased by Christes sacrifice, is offred vntounto vsus by the worde,1, Pet. 1.23. not by the Masse. You are borne a newe by the worde of God,1. Ioh. 1.3. who liueth, and indureth for euer. And we hauehave felowship with God, & with his sonne Iesus Christ, by the worde, which is declared vntounto vsus. And he that knoweth God, heareth vsus, and the worde, whereby the righteousnesse of God is knowne, is the word of faith,Rom. 10.8. 2. Cor. 5.19. which we preache. And plainly S. Paule calleth it the word of reconciliation. And the Gospell is the power of God vntounto saluation to al them, that beleue.1. Pet. 4.6. And Peter witnesseth that the Gospell is preached, to the ende men might liue vntounto God, and Christ sanctified his Churche, by the washing of water throughe the worde. Not one place in the scripture,Eph. 5 26. that we be sanctified by priuate Masse, or daily sacrifice. But let vsus let these sacrificers alone. They be blinde leaders of the blinde. Read more of this in the epistle, and in the .75. vntruthe.

A Sparing Restraint of Many Lavish Untruths, Part 2 (3 of 5)