Answer to a Popish Antichristian Catholic, Offer 19

Answer to a Popish Antichristian Catholic · Offer 19

The ninteenth Offer.

Offerer.

Nineteenth. Againe, on the other ſide, let the learned 19Proteſtant prooue, that it is not the true Church of Chriſt, that hath in the face of the world, for the ſpace of fifteene hundred yeeres paſt, exerciſed preaching, the conuerſion of nations to the obedience of the Goſpell, that hath alwaies had the adminiſtration of Sacramentes, the hearing of matters in controuerſie, the orderly ſucceſſion of Biſhops, the vniformitie of ſolemne Ceremonies, and the vnitie of faith, that hath in her ſelfe all holy functions of the ſpirite, as working of miracles, remiſſion of ſinnes, the true cence and interpretation of Gods word, that is beautified with diuerſity of ſtates commended by Chriſt, as with Martirs, with Confeſſors, holy virgins and ſuch other. Let the Proteſtant prooue vntounto me, that this is not the true Church, and that we are not bound to obey, and beleeue this Church and none other, in al controuerſies & doubts vpriſing eyther by the difficulty of Scripture, or by vayne p. 48contention and pride of Heretickes: and I wyll yeelde and recant, and not before.

Crowley.

The Proteſtant hath already prooued, that the Church whereof this Offerer is a member: hath not béene of ſo long continuaunce as fiftéene hundreth yéeres: Yea, and that there be not yet a full thouſand yéeres paſt, ſince that Church became of ſuch power and eſtimation in the world, as now it dooth challendge to it ſelfe, and as this Offerer dooth bragge of.

That Church which is Catholique in déede (whereof all right Proteſtāts be members) hath bad continuance euen euer ſince this promiſe was made in y^e daies of y^e firſt man. I wyll put enimitie betwixt thée and the woman, betwixt thy ſéede and her ſéede: her ſéede ſhall breake thy heade, and thou ſhalt aſſalt his héele.Gen, 3. Theſe wordes dyd God him ſelfe ſpeake to the ſperpent, and this promiſe dyd the firſt man and his wyfe beléeue, and they, and theyr faithfull poſteritie, dyd from time to time looke for and long after the performaunce of this promiſe, euen tyll our Sauiour Chriſt (which is that bleſſed ſéede of the woman) had in déede performed it. Our Sauiour Chriſt ſpeaking of this looking for and longing after: ſayd thus to his diſciples. Many Prophets and Princes hauehave deſired to ſée thoſe things that you ſée, and hauehave not ſéene them, and to heare thoſe wordes that you heare, and hauehave not heard them. Luc. 10.Lucae, 10, And againe ſpeaking to the Iewes he ſayd. Your father Abraham dyd aduaunce him ſelfe that he might ſée my day, and he dyd ſée it, and reioyce in it. Iohn, 8.Iohn. 8.John 8 And this Catholique Church, hath continued ſtill, in all troubles and perſecutions, and dooth continue to this day, and ſo ſhall to the ende, ſtill reioyſing in the day of Chriſt that is already paſt, and looking and longing after that day of his that is yet to come: which is the day of his appearing in glory, when all his ſhall appeare with him in glorie, Colo, 3.Coloſſ, 3

This Church hath had the vſe of Sacraments, euer ſince Sacraments were inſtituted. But before Abrahams time, there was not any Sacrament ordayned, for the firſt Sacrament was Circumciſion, and the other Sacrament was the Paſſe-ouer, which was inſtituted in the dayes of Moſes. By this it appeareth that the Church was before the ſacramentes were: and ſo it followeth by good conſequence, that Sacramentes are not neceſſarily required to the conſtituting of a Church. Yea and after thoſe Sairamentes were inſtituted, the vſe of them was by occaſion intermitted: and yet the Church that dyd intermit the vſe of thoſe Sacramentes, was ſtill the Church of God notwithſtanding the intermitting of the vſe of the Sacraments. As in the time of the people of Iſralites béeing in the wildernes, which was fortie yéeres: both Circumciſſion and the Paſſeouer were intermitted, and yet that people were ſtyll accounted to bée, and were in déede the Church of God. Euen ſo, our Sauiour Chriſt haueing fulfilled the lawe, did inſtitute two Sacramentes, in the place or ſtéede of thoſe two that were before hys incarnation, namely Baptiſme, and the Sacrament of his body and blood, and left them to hys Church, with commaundement that they ſhould bee vſed in hys Church, and therfore the Church of Chriſt may not refuſe to vſe them. But yet, if by iuſt occaſion the Church ſhalbe enforced to intermit the vſe of them, for as long, or longer tyme, then the Iſralites dyd intermit y^e vſe of theyr Sacramēts: this may not be thought to be a iuſt cauſe to account that Church to be no Catholique Church, which hath for a tyme intermitted the vſe of Sacramentes.

But that Catholique Church whereof we Proteſtants be members: hath not any at time intermitted y^e vſe of theſe two Sacraments that Chriſt hath ordayned, no not in the tyme of moſt bloody perſecution, as in moſt auncient Hiſtories it dooth appeare. And after the ende of thoſe bloody perſecutions (which dyd continue almoſt to the ende of the firſt 300. yéeres after Chriſtes aſcention (the ſame Church dyd continue the vſe of the ſame Sacramentes publiquely and p. 51openly, which before that time bloodie Tirrannie would not ſuffer them to doo.

But when the tyme of Apoſtacie was come, and the man of ſinne (of whom S. Paule wrote, 2, Theſſa, 2.2, Theſſa, 2) had gotten the vpper hand: then this Church was inforced to leaue that open vſe y^t of Sacraments that it had continued for the ſpace (almoſt) of 300. yéeres, and to vſe them, as before ſhee had doone, in the time of the firſt bloody perſecutions. For the Romane Church béeing fallen away from the Catholique Church, became as bloodily minded, as euer the Romane Empire had béene.

Thus the Catholique Church (whereof wee bée members) hath continued and dooth ſtil continue the vſe of thoſe Sacraments that Chriſt hath inſtituted. As for confirmation, order, and that which you call penaunce, matrimony, and extreame vnction: wée doo not acknowledge to bée Sacraments, becauſe they agrée not with the definition or diſcription of a Sacrament, which is, a viſible ſigne of an inuiſible ſpirituall grace, inſtituted by Chriſt him ſelfe: we knowe and doo confeſſe that confirmation is a good order, and may bée vſed to the edification of the Church, and therfore, it is appointed by publique Authority, y^t when younglinges ſhalbe inſtructed ſo that they ſhalbe able in ſome meaſure to make profeſſion of the Chriſtian fayth: they ſhal bée brought to the Biſhop, that by prayer to God for them, and laying on of his handes vponupon them, they may bée the better confirmed in that faith which they hauehave learned and profeſſed.

The ordering, of miniſters, we allowe of alſo, as of a good & profitable order in the Church: for we know that no man may take vponupon himſelfe, that honour, but ſuch as ſhalbe called thereunto as Aron was. And therefore, as great care as may be is taken in the choſing of ſuch as ſhalbe admitted to the miniſtry, and as great circumſpection in the admitting.Heb. 5.Heb 5 If any fault be in this behalfe: it is not in the lawe that preſcribeth a good and perfect order to be obſerued herein, but in the lacke of care that may be in ſuch as hauehave the execution of the law. As touching that which you cal penance, wée doo neither accept of it as of a Sacrament, (becauſe we knowe that it is none) neyther doo we take it for a good order, becauſe we doo knowe that it is derogatorie to the glorie of Chriſt. The firſt part of your penaunce, whych you call contrition, or inward ſorrow of hart, wee doo like well of, for as the Prophet Dauid ſaith. Pſalme 51.Pſal, 51, An humble and broken hart (O God) thou wilte not deſpiſe. Yea hee ſayth that a troubled ſpirit is a ſacrifice to God. The ſecond parte of your penaunce, is confeſſion. That part wee doo lyke of alſo: but not in ſuch order as it is vſed amongeſt you. That is that the penitent perſon ſhall make rehearſall of all hys ſinnes in the hearing of a Préeſt that knoweth not whether he ſpeake truely or not. As S. Auſtin hath written in his tenth booke of confeſſions,Auguſti. Conf. li. 10, Capi, 3. and in the thirde Chapter thereof. What hauehave I to do with men (ſayth S. Auſtine) that they ſhould here my confeſſions, &c. We doo exhorte all men, to confeſſe all theyr ſinnes to God, againſt whome they are committed, and in whoſe power onelie it is to forgiue them. If our ſinnes be ſecret, ſo that none but God onelyonly dooth knowe them: then doo we thinke it good to followe the counſell of Sirach, Eccleſ, 19,chap, 19, declare not thy ſinnes, neyther to fréende nor to foe, &c. But if we hauehave ſinned one of vsus againſt an other: then we thinke it méete to followe the councell of S. Iames, in his Epiſtle, chap, 5.Iacob, 5, Confeſſe your ſinnes one to an other, &c. But if the horrour of our ſinnes be ſo great, that we can not, by anie of theſe meanes be aſſured of forgiuenes of them: then wée doo reſorte, not to an ignoraunt Préeſt, but to ſuch a one as we are aſſured can (or at the leaſt way, we are perſwaded y^t he can) aſſure vsus by the ſcriptures, that repenting our ſins vnfaynedly and purpoſing to turne away from them, from thence foreward continually: the merciful God (our father) dooth ſo pardon and forgiue them, that hee will neuer laye them to our charge any more.

But y^e third part of your penaunce, which you call ſatiſfaction: wee doo vtterly deteſt and abhorre. For that wee doo p. 48knowe by the ſcriptures, that onelyonly Chriſt is able to make ſatiſfaction to God for ſinne. Becauſe no creature could bee worthy or méete to make ſatiſfaction to God for ſinne: therfore God the creator of creatures, would in the ſecond perſon in Trinity, become man, that in mans nature he might dye, and be made a ſacrifice for the ſinnes of the world, yea that he might make him ſelfe a ſacrifice, and by that one ſacrifice take away the ſinnes of the world. If you luſt to ſée what Scriptures wee hauehave, for proofe of this that I hauehave here written: looke the 53, of Eſaies prophecies, and the, 63,Ephe, 53. &, 63 Math. 1. Iohn, 1, 1. Timot. 1. Heb. 9.10,Heb 9:10 Chapter of the ſame prophecies. The firſt chapter of Saint Mathewes Goſpell, the firſt of S. Iohns Goſpell, the firſt of S. Paules firſt Epiſtle to Timoth. The ninth, and the tenth Chapters of the Epiſtle to the Hebrewes. As touching ſatiſfactions, therefore to be made to God: we renounce and forſake all and all manner of ſatiſfactions that hauehave béene, or ſhalbe deuiſed by men: and we cleaue vntounto that onelie, that Chriſt Ieſus hath made once for all, by that one and euerlaſting ſacrifice that he hath made of hym ſelfe once for all.

But when we ſin one of vsus againſt an other (as too too often wée doo) or when we ſinne againſt the whole congregation of Chriſtians (as wee doo to often in déede) then wee thinke our ſelues bound, not onelyonly to confeſſe our faultes one to an other, or to the whole congregation that is offended by vsus: but alſo to ſatiſfie, by all meanes poſſible, thoſe priuate perſons, & alſo y^e congregation of Chriſt by making ſuch ſatiſfaction as by any meanes we may be able to make And herein we follow the counſell (or rather the commandement) of our ſauiour Chriſt, Math. 5.Math, 5. Agrée with thine aduerſary quickly whilſe thou art in y^e way with him: leaſt thine aduerſary bring thée to the iudge, & the iudge deliuer thée to the officer, and then thou be caſt into priſon. I tel thée thou ſhalt not bée deliuered out thence, till thou ſhalt hauehave paied the vttermoſt farthing. The way wherin we muſt agrée w^t our aduerſarie, is this life, y^e end wherof is moſt vncertaine: wherfore a ſpéedy agréement is needful. Our aduerſarie is that partie that hath cauſe to charge vsus with miſdemeanour towards him. The iudge is God himſelfe, who being iuſt muſt néedes condemne vsus to perpetuall priſon in hell, becauſe we hauehave not in the way of this life agréed with our aduerſarie. And from thence we can neuer be deliuered, becauſe we can not there make any ſatiſfaction to our aduerſarie. The Popes pardons, his Maſſes, Trentalles, Obbets Anniuerſaries, Chauntries, and the reſt of Satiſfactory deuiſes, can help vsus nothing at all in this caſe. God graunt his grace to vsus and to all men, that profeſſing the religion of Chriſt, we may, as it is ſéemely for Chriſtians, be careful to doo as Chriſt hath taught, and agrée with our aduerſarie quickly whiles we are with him in the way of this lyfe, and ſo eſcape that terrible iudgement that otherwiſe the righteous iudge muſt néedes pronounce and put in execution.

Matrimonie we honour, not as a Sacrament, but as an holy ordinaunce of God, inſtituted by God himſelfe in Paradiſe, and in the time of mans innocencie, and with Saint Paule, Ephe, 5. Ephe, 5.we holde, that in it is repreſented vntounto vsus that miſticall vnion that is betwixt Chriſt and his Church. And wée doo maruaile much, that the Popes Catholiques can holde this for a ſacrament: and yet deny the vſe of it to ſuch amongſt them as they doo account to be moſt holy. W… doo knowe,Hebr, 13. and confeſſe with S. Paule, that Mariage is honourable amongſt all men, and that the bedde of the maried perſons is vndefiled. Yea, we knowe that no eſtate or calling amongſt men can be ſo holy, that mariage may bee thought to bée profane a thing for that eſtate or calling. Wée knowe alſo, that the holines of it is ſuch, that the holines of the moſt holy amongſt men, can adde nothing to the holines thereof, nor yet the vnholines of the moſt vnholy, take any thing from the holines thereof. The moſt honourable amongſt men, doo not when they enter into that honourable eſtate, make it more honourable: neyther doo the moſt baſe and vyle in degrée amongeſt men (when they enter into it) make it more baſe and vile, by that vilenes or p. 53baſenes that is in them.

We doo not therfore, denie the vſe of it to any man. But we doo wiſhe, that all men that doo finde in themſelues occaſion to vſe it: would duly conſider wherefore it was ordayned, and would vſe it for the procreation of children to be brought vp in the feare and nurture of the Lord, and to the prayſe of God: for the preſeruation and kéeping of theyr bodyes vndefiled members of Chriſts body, and for the mutuall ſociety, helpe and comfort, that maryed perſons ought to hauehave, the one of the other.

Your extreame vnction, we doo not onelyonly denie to bée a Sacrament becauſe we finde in Hiſtories, that Pope Foelix the fourth of that name, that occupied the place of the Papacie about, 525, yéeres after the incarnation of our Sauiour Chriſt, was the firſt that tooke order for the anoynting of the bodyes of ſuch as lay in dying, with oyle: But alſo becauſe the manner of the vſing of it, is too too full of ſuperſtition. We allowe of a religious viſiting of the ſicke, according to the councell of S. Iames, chap. 5. And wee doo vnderſtand by the annoynting with oyle that S. Iames ſpeaketh of, the applying of naturall remedies to the ſicke perſons, which beeing ioyned with prayer, muſt néedes bee the more effectuall, as by that place of S. Iames it may verie well be gathered. And thus much I hauehave thought méete to write concerning the Sacramentes which Chriſt hath inſtituted, and are now vſed in that Church wherof we Proteſtantes are: and hauehave béene vſed in that Church euer ſince they were firſt inſtituted by Chriſt himſelfe. And becauſe your ſorte doo make accounte of fiue other Sacramentes, in déede: I hauehave written bréefely of them alſo.

The Catholique Church (whereof we Proteſtantes are members) hath from tyme to tyme had the hearing of matters in controueſie, and ſo hath it ſtill, ſo farre foorth as the ſame may appertaine vntounto her to iudge of them. That is, where and when the parties that be at controuerſie do ſubmit themſelues to her iudgement. For what hath ſhe to doo with them that be without? As S. Paule wrote to the Corrinthians, 1. Cor. 5.1, Cor. 5. Such as are not of y^e ſocietie of the members of Chriſt, are not to be iudged by the church of Chriſt.

And as touching the orderly ſucceſſion of Biſhops: wee are able to ſhewe by the Hiſtories of the Church, that our Church hath had aboue, 60. Biſhops in Rome, ſucceſſiuely one after another, whereof the greateſt number were good men, and carefull to gouerne the flocke committed to their charge, as S. Paule wiſhed y^e Elders or Biſhops of Eph. to doo Act. 20. But here the Offerer, muſt note, y^t none of theſe was called or would be called vniuerſal Biſhops, or vniuerſal heads,Acts, 20. of y^e vniuerſal church of Chriſt. They knew y^t the charge that was committed vntounto them in Roome and in y^e Churches of y^e prouince, was great enough for them, they ſought for no more charge. But when any other Biſhops dyd ſéeke to them for councell: they were readye to helpe them to the vttermoſt of theyr power, but none of them did claime any power or authority ouer the reſt. The reſt of the Biſhoppes in Roome, that ſuccéeded Gregorie the firſt: namely Boniface the third, and ſuch as ſuccéeded him, were Antichriſtian Biſhops, and therefore wee refuſe them as none of ours. Neither is it ſo neceſſarie a matter to hauehave ſo orderly a ſucceſſion of Biſhoppes in any one Cittie in the chriſtian worlde, as in the firſt 600. hundreth yéeres after Chriſt, there was in Roome.

But becauſe the cittie Roome was then (and had béene of long tyme before) the chéefe cittie of the whole world: the peoples that inhabited in other Citties and partes of the world, owing ſeruice to the ſtate of Roome, had occaſion to repaire thether, and therefore euen the chriſtians that had theyr dwelling elſe where, had the Biſhoppes, and other Church miniſters that were in Roome, in greater eſtimation, then they had thoſe men that were of the lyke calling, euen in the citties wherein they themſelues had theyr aboade and dwelling.

And hereof it might come that greter account was made of the ſucceſſion of thoſe Biſhops that were Biſhoppes of Roome, then of thoſe that were in Millen, Conſtantinople, p. 54Ieruſalem, Hippo, or in any other part of the whole world, But if this orderly ſucceſſion of biſhops that ſo great accoūt is made of were well weighed, it would not bee founde ſo certaine as thys Offerer and his fellowes, would faine hauehave it ſéeme to bée.

S, Auſtine (whoſe anthoritie is not to bee contemned) hauing occaſion to make mention of this ſucceſſion: placeth Linus next vntounto Peter, and maketh no mention at all of Cletus, and ſo he maketh in this ſucceſſion leſſe by one, then the common account is. Some others doo ſuppoſe, that Linus and Cletus, were but Peters coadiutors, and not Biſhops of Roome at all: For Peter him ſelfe ſayd vntounto Clement, I giuegive vntounto thée, the ſame power of binding and looſing that Chriſt left vntounto me: and ſo he made Clement hys immediate ſucceſſour. Yea there be ſome that doo thinke, (and I doo thinke y^t they hauehave ſome good cauſe ſo to thinke) that Peter him ſelfe, was neuer Biſhop of Roome.

But let the ſucceſſion of Biſhops in the firſt 600. yéeres, be euen ſuch as this Offerer and his fellowes doo ſuppoſe it to be: yet y^e ſucceſſion that hath bene ſince the end of thoſe firſt. 600, yeres: is not ſo currant as they do auouch it to be.

For it appeareth in Hiſtories, that the ſeate of Roome hath béene voyde for the ſpace of whole yéere togeather, yea for the ſpace of two yéeres and more: and that there hauehave béene two Popes, yea thrée Popes at one time, where of one hath excommunicated the other, and no man was able to ſay which of them ſhold by y^e right ſucceſſour of Peter.

I would gladly vnderſtand by this Offerer and his fellowes, what manner of ſucceſſion that was, when aboute the yéere of our Lord, 855. Ioane Engliſh, borne at Menſſe, béeing a woman in ſexe and nature, was made Pope, and continued ſo for the ſpace of two yéeres. I thinke they will not ſay that this was an orderly ſucceſſion.

To bée bréefe, the ſucceſſion of the Romane Biſhoppes, ſince the time of Bonifacius, 3. hath béene ſuch as the ſucceſſion of high Préeſts was in y^e kingdome of Iſraell, from the time of the falling away of the tenne kindreds from the houſe of Iuda, euen to the time wherein they were caried away by the Aſſirians: and lyke the ſucceſſion of high Préeſts amongſt the Iewes from the firſt beginning of the Sects of the Phariſeis and Saduces amongſt them, euen to that time wherein that kingdome was vtterly ouerthrowne by the Romanes.

And as the right profeſſours of the lawe of God in Iſraell and Iuda (which vndoubtedly were many) had in al this tyme no ſucceſſion of highe Préeſtes: ſo ſuch as in theſe latter 1000 yéeres hauehave béene the right Catholiques, hauehave had no ſucceſſion of Biſhops, but hauehave receiued theyr ſpirituall foode, at the hands of ſuch paſtors as God hath from time to time ſtirred vp, as he ſtirred vp Prophets in Iuda & Iſrael in thoſe times wherof I hauehave ſpoken before: & as often as it hath pleaſed God to giuegive his Church libertie to make publique profeſſion of fayth and religion (as now for the ſpace of 29. yéeres togeather, he hath doone in this realme of England) ſuch as be members of the true Catholique Church, doo and hauehave doone (by the permiſſion and commaundement, of our Prince, whom God hath appointed to gouerne vsus) as it becommeth Catholike Chriſtians to doo, in open praier, preaching, and adminiſtration of Sacramentes.

And to the ende that all thinges may bée doon orderly and as it beſeemeth, we hauehave biſhops & al other neceſſary miniſters, orderly elected & admitted, to miniſter vntounto vsus y^e word and to exerciſe publique prayer & neceſſarie diſcipline, ſuche as the higher powers vnderunder whome we liue, doo thinke méete to be exerciſed.

As for the vniformity of your ſolemne Ceremonies: that had not had ſo long continuance for the ſpace of fiftéene hundreth yéeres, nor yet for the ſpace of fifty yéeres. For by the confeſſion of your holy father Pope Pius quintus the difference of ceremonies vſed euen in your holy Maſſe, was ſuch before the tyme of your laſt generall Councell, which began at Trident. Anno. 1545. that it was thought méete by them to take order for the reformation thereof. But though it had béene as auncient as you would hauehave it. p. 55what great matter is there in it, to prooue thereby that your Church is the true Church of Chriſt: ſith it is an eaſie matter for any ſorte of men to agrée in outward and ſolemne Ceremonies, although the ſame bee neuer ſo ſuperſtitious, vaine and fooliſh.

But here is a matter of greater waight; y^t is the vnity of fayth that your Church hath had theſe 1500, yéeres laſt paſt continually. I hauehave already prooued that your Antichriſtian Church hath not had continuance ſo long by 600. yeres almoſt. And it ſhalbe an eaſie matter to prooue y^t the fayth of your Church hath in y^e time that it hath had continuance, varied very often, in ſome poyntes of greateſt wayght, as you doo account of them. The generall councell of Baſill, beléeued that theyr authority was aboue the authority of the Pope, and that they might depoſe hym, and therefore they dyd depoſe Eugenius that then was Pope, and chooſe an other in his place. And the ſame Eugenius, bolding a Councell at Farrary, beléeued that he had authority to excommucate the generall councell. And this article was long doubted of. Whether the Pope, or the generall counſell ſhould hauehave the ſupreme authoritie. And about the wordes of conſecration: I thinke your Church is not yet agréede, whether the vertue …hat turneth the ſubſtaunce, doo lye in the verbe Est, or in the ſillable, vm. And whether the ſubſtance of breade and wyne bée turned into the ſubſtaunce of the body and bloode of Chriſt, or whether that ſubſtaunce departing and giuing place, the body and blood of Chriſt, doo occupie the place thereof vnderunder the qualities of bread and wine. And whether the mouſe that eateth the conſecrated rake, doo eate the bodie of Chriſt or no. In theſe high poyntes of religion, and in dyuers other of lyke ſorte: the vnitie of your fayth hath béene, and ſtyll is ſore ſhaken. But I perceyue that which followeth in thys concluſion of thys offer: that the fayth whych you ſpeake of is that fayth or beleefe that you hauehave in that Church of yours which you call Catholique. You neuer trouble your ſelfe with the waighting and examining of matters of beléefe: for you confeſſe that you muſt of neceſſitie beléeue the Church. So that your determination is to beléeue whatſoeuer, that Church hath or ſhall determine, and commaund you to beléeue, although you knowe not what that Church either hath or ſhall determine. Thus your late proſilite. Frier Iohn Frauncis of Nigeon in Fraunce, dyd in his letters that he wrote to his mother inſtruct her to beléeue.

But here riſeth a doubte, whether this Church be the general councell, the colledge of Cardinalles, or the Popes holines alone. If it bee the generall councell: what ſhifte would you hauehave made when two generall councelles: were holden at one tyme, and decréede contrarie, the one to the other, the one holden at Baſill, and the other at Farrarie? If it be the colledge of Cardinalles: which way would you hauehave turned your ſelfe, when there were thrée Popes at one tyme, and each Pope had his colledge of Cardinalles? If it bée the Pope him ſelfe: then tell mée vponupon whome you would hauehave hanged your fayth, when there was no Pope for the ſpace of two yéeres togeather, and when there were three Popes at one tyme, and when haueing but one Pope, the ſame was an Arrian or Sadduſey, or had giuen hym ſelfe to the Deuill that hee myght bée made Pope?

I leaue this to your diſcretion, or to the diſcretion of ſome one of your ſorte that ſhall take in hand to replye to this aunſwer that I make to theſe your offers.

You ſaye, that your Church hath in her ſelfe all holie functions of the ſpirite: as workinge of miracles, remiſſion of ſinnes, and the true ſence and interpretation of Gods worde. A ſtraunge manner of ennumeration of partes. All the holie functions of the ſpyrite are innumerable, and therefore they are commonlie ſayd to bée ſeuen: by which number béeing a perfecte number, an infinite multitude is commonly ſignified. But you ſet downe thrée for all. The working of miracles is one of thoſe holye functions that you ſpeake of. You meane (I am ſure) of thoſe miracles that hauehave béene and are wrought in your p. 56places of Pilgrimage, and by the rotten reliques of your Sayntes, whereof I hauehave heard great boaſt, and ſome experience I hauehave ſéene in England. The holy mayd of Kent with her confederates, wrought manie myracles in the dayes of King Henrie the eyght, as in our Chronicles is to bée ſéene: but in the ende ſhe was founde to bée an arrante Whore, and ſo was the holie made of Lemſter, that was nothing inferiour to the other in working of myracles. The holy Roode of Boſtone, the holie Roode of Boxley, the holie Roode of Cheſter, the holie Roode of Northamton, and the holie Roode at the North doore of Paules Church, with the holy Roode, in Roode Lane in London, were not behinde the reſt in working miracles, by y^e helpe of knaues that had the kéeping of them. I might ſpeake of the holy blood at Hailes which was ſayd to bee a portion of the bloode of Chriſt, Saint Thomas of Canterburie, S. Thomas of Hereford, S. William of Mawuerne, S. Ioſeph of Shafteſburie, and holy King Henrie of Windſore, King Kenelme of Cowbadge, S. Hugh of Lincolne, and S. Robert of Naſeborowe, and a number of bleſſed Ladies, to many to bée rehearſed by name. The knauerie that was practized in theſe places is ſo well knowen in England that your miracles can hauehave no credite amongſt ſuch Engliſh men as hauehave not Roomiſh hartes.

Yea, and our ſauiour Chriſt hath forewarned vsus, Math, 24. Math, 24,That in theſe latter dayes, many falſe Chriſts and falſe prophets ſhal ariſe, & ſhal ſhew great ſignes & wōders in ſo much y^t if it were poſſible y^t very elect ſhold be brought into error. But behold (ſaith our ſauiour) I hauehave told you before hand, &c. The moe miracles you doo brag of, y^e greater cauſe we hauehave to ſuſpect you, for theſe are not y^e daies wherin credit is to be giuen to miracles, but wherin workers of wonders are to be had in ſuſpition. Your Church hath (you ſay) remiſſion of ſins. In déed, y^e true catholique church of Chriſt hath ſo: but not according to your meaning as I think. The true catholique church) whereof we are members) hath remiſſion of ſins, in Chriſt, and by his mediation. And therfore in y^e confeſſion of our faith, we ſay, we beléeue the remiſſion of ſins. But (as I think) your meaning is y^t your church hath power to forgiue ſins. And hereupon you ground your ingendulces & pardons, for many yéeres & many Lentes, and in diuers conſiderations plenary forgiuenes, A paena & a culpa. Both from the payne that the faulte hath deſerued, and from the fault it ſelfe alſo. This remiſſion of Sinnes your Pope beſtoweth at hys pleaſure: but neuer for naught But whether he doo giuegive or ſell this remiſſion of ſinnes: he dooth in taking vponupon himſelfe to forgiue ſinnes, ſhewe him ſelfe to bée that man of ſinne that S. Paule wrote of the 2. Theſſal, 2. 2, Theſſa, 2Who ſitting in the temple of God boaſteth hymſelfe to bée God. For who can forgiue ſinnes but God onelie. Marci, 2.Marci, 2,

Wée doo know and confeſſe, that our ſauiour Chriſt hath giuen powre to his church, both to remit and to retaine ſinnes, and that powre dooth our Catholike church exerciſe, by certifying the penitent ſinners (by the ſcriptures) that their ſinnes vnfainedly repented, be vndoubtedly pardoned through Chriſt, in whom they muſt belieue aſſuredly, that ſhalbe capable of this remiſſion of ſinnes. But our Catholike church dooth not make ſale of this remiſſion of ſinnes, as your popiſh Catholike Church dooth. And our Catholike church hath powre to retaine the ſinnes of ſuch ſinners as ſhée findeth obſtinate and impenitent, by certifying them by the ſcriptures, that except they ſhall repent vnfaynedly, and belieue the goſpell, (that is, the glad tydings of frée pardon of all their ſinnes in and by Chriſt) their ſinnes ſhall neuer bee forgiuen. The ſcriptures are the keyes that Chriſt gaue vntounto Peter, and in him to his whole church: as S. Auguſtine hath written in his fiftith treatiſe vponupon Ioh. Si hoc ergo in Eccleſia fit, Auguſt, in Io. tract, 50.Petrus quando claues accepit, Eccleſiam ſanctam ſignificauit. If this thing be done in the church, then when Peter did receiue the keyes, hee did ſignifie the holy Church. So that the power of looſing and binding, belonged not to Peter alone, but to him togither with the reſt of the Apoſtles, wherefore, the ſame powre dooth not p. 57now belonge to any one perſon alone in the Church, but to the whole Church togither.

You ſay further that your church hath the true ſenſe & interpretation of the woorde of God, ſo that no ſenſe or interpretation of Gods woorde, may bee taken for true, but that which is ſet down by your church, although that which is ſet downe by your church ſhalbe prooued to bee directly contrarie to the text of Gods woord it ſelfe.

In your generall counſeil holden at Trident, in the yéere 1563. and in y^e tewenty & fifth Seſſion thereof: your church hath anathematized as many as ſhall hold or teach, that the Images of Chriſt, of the virgine his mother, and of other ſaintes, be not very profitable for Chriſtians, and that they are not to bee worſhipped. Their decrée concerning this matter beginneth thus. Jmagines porro Chrsti, &c. That is, The holy Synode dooth commaunde, that the Images of Chriſt, and of the virgin, the mother of God, and of other ſaints, to be had and retained, eſpecially in churches, & that due honor and worſhip bée giuen vntounto them. This is the ſenſe and interpretation that your Catholike church hath ſet downe in that decrée, concerning the meaning of theſe ſentences written in the woord of God. Curſed is that man or woman, that ſhall make a carued or molten Image (that the Lord abhorreth the worke of the hands of Crafteſmen) and ſhall ſet it in a ſecret place. Deut. 27. Deut. 27.Deut 27Againe, in Eſay. Cap. 44. Quis formauit Deum, &c. Who hath faſhioned a God, and hath made a carued Image,Eſay 44. Exod. 20.Isa 44Exod 20 that is good for nothing? And againe, Exod. 20. Non facies tibi ſcuptile, &c. Thou ſhalt not make to thy ſelfe any grauen Image, nor the likenes of any thing that is in heauen aboue, or in the earth beneath, nor in the water vnderunder the earth. Thou ſhalt not worſhip nor ſerue them, &c. Yea, and S. Paule in his ſecond Epiſtle to the Corinthes. 2. Cor. 6. 2. Cor. 6.2 Cor 6What agreement is there betwixt the temple of God and Images? directly, contrary to the ſentences of ſcripture: your holy mother, the Catholike church, as you doo terme hir, but in very déede, the church of Antichriſt: hath in that generall counſell, decréed that the Images of Chriſt, of the Virgin (the mother of God) and of other ſaintes, muſt be had and retayned, eſpecially in churches, and that their due honour and reuerence muſt bée giuen vntounto them.

Much more might bee noted out of your generall counſelles, where by it might bee made moſt manifeſt & plaine, that there was neuer any ſorte of Heretikes, that ſwarued further from the true ſenſe and interpretation of the word of God, euen in y^e chiefeſt points of religion, then that Synagogue of Satan, your Antichriſtian Catholike church, hath doone for the ſpace of theſe 1000. yéeres now laſt paſt (almoſt) and dooth ſtill.

But your church is beautified with diuerſity of ſtates commended by Chriſt, as with Martyrs, with Confeſſors, holy Virgins and ſuch other. If a man ſhould require you to ſhew your Martyrologie, and to ſhew the cauſes wherefore theſe Martyrs of yours ſuffered: it would bee hard for you to make proofe, that any one of thoſe that you doo account for Martyrs, did ſuffer for any other then for Antichriſt. If you ſhall begin with Thomas Becket, the beſt that you can ſay for him, is that hée died for the liberties of the Church. And what were thoſe liberties? That all clergie men ſhould be exempted from y^e powre of their princes. So that if a clergie man, ſhould cōmit any maner of felonie, murther, or Treaſon, or any other capitall crime: none of the princes officers might deale with him, to execute the penalty of the lawe vponupon him, as vponupon a felon, murderer, or Traytor: but he muſt be puniſhed by this Ordinarie, &c. And what was this other, then to dye for Antichriſt, who contrary to Chriſts doctrine, vſurpeth authoritie ouer princes, and wil not ſuffer any of his to be in ſubiection to princes, and to princes lawes?

To bee briefe, Biſhop Fyſhar, Sir Thomas Moore, the Monkes of the charter houſe, with all the reſt of the Popes friends that ſuffered in the daies of King Henry the eight: and Edmond Campion with his companie, and the reſt that hauehave bene executed in the time of the raigne of our p. 58Soueraigne that now is: for what cauſe hauehave they ſuffered? was it not for that they affirmed that the Popes holines hath the ſupreme power in this realme, & that princes hauehave not the higheſt power vponupon earth, ouer ſuch as be their ſubiectes? This cauſe can not bee Chriſts cauſe: for Chriſt did in his humaine nature, ſubmit him ſelfe to the Emperor, in that hee him ſelfe did pay tribute to the Emperor, in token of ſubiection. Mat. 17. Mat, 17.S. Peter willeth all chriſtians to ſubmit them ſelues to all eſtates of men, euen for the Lords ſake, whether it be to the king, as to him that hath the preheminence, or to the Dukes or captaines, as to men whom the Lord hath ſent for the puniſhment of euill dooers, but for the praiſe of ſuch as bée good, for ſo is the will of God, that Chriſtians ſhould by well dooing ſtop the ignoraunce of fooliſh men, &c. 1. Pet. 2. 1, Peter, 2.S. Paule alſo wrote thus to the Romaines. Omnis anima poteſtatibus ſublimioribus ſubdita ſit, &c. Let eueryevery ſoule be ſubiect to the higher powers, &c. Rom. 13. Rom. 13.Rom 13Chryſoſtome expounding theſe woords of S. Paule, ſaith thus. Etiam ſi Apostolus ſis, ſi Euangeliſta, ſi Propheta, ſiue quiſquis tandem fueris, &c. Although thou be an Apoſtle, if thou bée an Euangeliſt, if thou be a Prophet, and to conclude, who, or what ſo euer thou béeſt. For (ſaith Chryſoſtome) this ſubiection dooth not ſubuert godlineſſe. And hée ſaith not ſimply, hée muſt obay, but hée ſaith,Chryſoſt. in Rom. 13.Rom 13 ſubdita ſit. It muſt bée in ſubiection. By theſe woords of Chryſoſtome, it appeereth what maner of Martyrs they are, that hauehave died for the mainetenaunce of your Popes ſupreme powre ouer all Chriſtians vponupon earth. If Chryſoſtome were now liuing, and would maintaine this that hee hath written: your Pope would make him a Martyr in déed, if hée might catch him, as hee hath, and ſtill dooth make Martyrs of all ſuch as hée hath and can catch, that bee of one minde with Chryſoſtome.

Your Confeſſors are euen ſuch as your Martyrs: and ſo are your Virgins, with the reſt that you meane of, when you ſay, and ſuch other.

Now let the Proteſtant prooue (ſay you) that this is not the true Church, that we are not bound to obay and belieue this Church and none other, in all controuerſies and doubts, &c.

The Proteſtant hath already prooued y^t the church that you meane of (which is the Romaine Antichriſtian church) is not the true Church of Chriſt, and that it hath not in it thoſe things that you doo ſo much brag of. It hath not continuance (as yet) for the ſpace of 1000. yéeres. It hath not, neither dooth it exerciſe preaching, to the conuerſion of nations to the obedience of the goſpell: but to the obedience of Antichriſtian doctrine. It hath not had, neither hath it, the right adminiſtration of the ſacraments, but with ſuch mixture of humaine diuiſes as is vnſéemely in the Church of Chriſt. It hath not had, neither hath it any ſuch orderly ſucceſſion of biſhops, as you brag of: neither any ſuch vniformitie of ſolemne Ceremonies. It hath not had at any time, neither hath it now ſuch vnitie of faith as you ſpeake of, nor the holy functions of the ſpirite: as working of Miracles, remiſſion of ſinnes, nor the true ſenſe and interpretation of the woord of God. Neither is it beautified with that diuerſitie of ſtates that you ſpeake of: as Martyrs, Confeſſors, and Virgins, & ſuch other: wherefore the Proteſtant concludeth: that there is no cauſe why he ſhould obay and belieue that church of yours, no more is there that you ſhould not yeelde and recant.