Answer to a Popish Antichristian Catholic, Offer 17 – Offer 18
The ſeauenteenth Offer.
Offerer.
Seauenteenth. I demaund of the learned Proteſtant, whether if the whole ſpace of that thouſand yeeres of blindnes, wherein theyr Church lay hid and vnknowen, ſuppreſſed by Papiſtrie, ſuperſtition and Idolatry, as they terme it, whether they which were then baptiſed, and openly profeſſed Chriſt, were ſaued or not. If the Proteſtant doo anſwer, yea, conſequently it followeth, that they were ſaued without the Church of Chriſt, liuing in all ignoraunce, ſuperſtition and idolatry, as they ſay. If he aunſwer no, and that there was no ſaluation out of theyr hyd and vnknowen Church, then all men of al degrees, young and olde, for the whole ſpace of the foreſayd thouſande yeeres, (by the Proteſtantes iudgement,) periſhed without all hope of Gods mercy, and were damned. When therfore the learned Proteſtant ſhalbe able to prooue by good reaſon and argument, eyther that there is a way to ſaluation without the Church of Chriſt, or that all people profeſſing Chriſt, periſhed for ſo many hundreth yeeres togeather, then wyll I recant, and not before.
Crowley.
It ſéemeth that this Offerer perſwadeth himſelfe, that by making this Offer, he ſhall put the learned Proteſtant to ſilence for euer. For if he ſhall open his mouth, and ſay yea, to that demaund which he maketh: then muſt it néedes followe by good conſequence, that there is a way to ſaluation, without the Church of Chriſt (whereof no Chriſtians eares can abide the hearing,) And if he ſay no: then it muſt néedes followe (by the lyke conſequence) that all men of all degrees, young and olde, that were borne into the world and profeſſed Chriſt for the ſpace of a thouſand yéeres together, dyd all periſhe, without all hope of Gods merciemercy, and were all damned. Thus in the opinion of this proude Offerer, the poore Proteſtant, is enforced to giuegive ouer in the plaine féelde, and to yéeld and recant, and ſo to become a Popiſh Catholique. But I hope wée ſhall ſée it fall out far otherwiſe.
Fyrſt, the ground whereon this Offerer buildeth hys argument or reaſon is not ſure. For he imagineth that the learned Proteſtants doo hold and affirme, or graunt, that theyr Church, béeing ſuppreſſed by Papiſtrie, ſuperſtition and Idolatrie, dyd lye ſo hidde and vnknowen for the ſpace of a thouſand yéeres: that no man could tell where to finde it. But that imagination is vaine and fooliſh. For although the Catholique Church (which is the Proteſtants Church) were, during the tyme of blindnes, ſore opreſſed by Popiſh tirannie, and ouercountenaunced by Popiſhe ſuperſtition and Idolatrie: yet was it (euen then) as a cittie ſtanding on an hil, & as a candle on a candleſticke, yea it was ye light of the world, & the ſalt of the earth, Math, 5.Math. 5. For when was the Church more obſcure, or when could it be leſſe regarded, then it was at that time wherein our Sauiour ſpake thoſe wordes? As then therefore, euen ſo afterwarde in the tyme of the tenne firſt bloody perſecutions: the Church of Chriſtians was the cittie on the Hill, &c. And ſo was it (and is ſtyll) during thoſe 1000. yéeres that the Offerer ſpeaketh of. For thoſe thouſand yéeres are not yet fully expired: and although God hauehave giuen Halſion dayes to Chriſtians in ſome regions, as in Helueſia, and in the vpper Germanie, and now for a fewe yéeres, in England and in Scotland: yet in Fraunce, Spayne, Portingale, and in the lowe countries, and in Italy, the ſeauen headed beaſt dooth ſtill holde battell againſt the two witneſſes, that were ſlayne and are reuiued. Apoc. 11.Apoc, 11,
But becauſe our Catholique Church hath not at any time floriſhed in the world, in ſuch pompous maner as the Antichriſtian Catholique Church dooth and euer hath doone ſince it firſt began: therefore this Offerer imagineth, that it lyeth hydde and vnknowen, as in déede it dooth to ſuch as he is: which will not ſée nor knowe, that which moſt eaſilie may be knowen of all men.
He imagineth alſo, that none of them that hauehave béene or bée baptiſed amongſt them, hauehave béene, bée, or can bée, of our Catholique Church, becauſe ſuch doo when they doo firſt come to yéeres of diſcretion, profeſſe Chriſt openly after theyr Antichriſtian manner. But herein he is very much diſceiued: for very many of vsus were borne and baptiſed amongeſt them, of which number, I my ſelfe am one. And when I was growne vp to diſcretion. I profeſſed Chriſt after the Antichriſtian manner. But God, that had fore appoynted me, and the reſt of his choſen children, to be veſſels vntounto honour: would not leaue vsus in that filthy puddle of popiſh ſuperſtition, but did by his good meanes drawe vsus out, and hath waſhed vsus in the fountaine of water by the word of lyfe. Eph. 6.Ephe, 6, And we doo not doubt but there bée yet many amongeſt you, that in Gods good time ſhalbe drawne out of that filthy puddle, and waſhed as we bée.
No maruaile though ſuch as this Offerer is can not ſée this: For euen Elias the Prophet could not ſée the like in Iſraell in his dayes. They hauehave ſayth he, ouerthrowen thine Altar, they hauehave ſlaine thy Prophets, I doo remaine alone, a Prophet of the Lord: and they ſéeke to take away my life. But the diuine maieſtie made anſwer: I hauehave reſerued for my ſelfe, 7000. that hauehave not bowed their knées to Baall, 3. Reg, 19.3, Reg. 19 Though this Offerer and his fellowes, neyther could heretofore, nor can now ſée any of our ſort amongeſt them: yet God hath his number, euen in Roome vnderunder the Popes noſe. And this is that ſure ſeale that S. Paule wrote of to Timoth. The Lord knoweth who they bée, that are his, 2. Timoth. 2.2, Timoth,
Cap, 2.It ſéemeth yt this Offerer is perſwaded, that baptiſme in water, and an outward and open profeſſing of Chriſt, are infallible ſignes of ſaluation. The Iſraelites were in lyke manner perſwaded concerning theyr circumſition and outward and open profeſſing of the lawe. But Eſay ſayth Eſay. 29.Eſay, 29, as our Sauiour him ſelfe hath cited hys words Ma. 15.Math, 15 In vaine doo they worſhip mee: teachinge the doctrines and commaundements of men.
Circumciſſion, was to them, the infallible ſigne and ſeale of Gods couenant, made with theyr fathers and with them: and God neither dyd nor could diſceiue them, but hée dyd alwayes performe that couenaunt towardes them, at that time, euen as hee had before performed the ſame towardes theyr fathers: but they brake the condition of the couenaunt, which they and theyr fathers had promiſed to kéepe, which was, to ſerue him according to his law. When they therfore had deuiſed wayes wherein they would ſerue God, not according to his lawe, but in many points contrary to his lawe: theyr circumciſſion therfore dyd profit them nothing, but was turned into vncircumciſſion. Rom, 2.Rom, 2,
Euen ſo batpiſme is vntounto vsus, the ſeale of the new couenaunt, which God hath made with vsus, and with our fore fathers: which couenaunt he neither dooth nor can breake. But when we breake the condition (which is to ſerue and honour him in ſpirit and in trueth. Ioh. 4.Iohn, 4,) then is our baptiſme made vnprofitable to vsus. For (as S. Peter hath written, 1. Peter, 3.1, Pet, 3,) The baptiſme that ſaueth vsus: is not that which putteth away the filth of the fleſh, but that whereby we are made bolde with a good conſcience to ſtand before God, and to call vponupon him. This is the baptiſme of the ſpirite, whereby we are borne from aboue, and made the ſons and daughters of God, and his ſpirit giuen vntounto vsus, which ſpirite dooth certifie our ſpirites that we are Gods children and the ſame ſpirite dooth enbolden vsus to repaire vntounto God as children to a Father, and to ſay vntounto him, father, father. Yea and this ſpirite dooth leade vsus as the children of God, and maketh vsus able (in ſome meaſure) to ſerue him in obſeruing the commaundementes of God. Rom, 8.Roma, 8,
How can you ſay that you doo obſerue this condition of honouring and ſeruing God in ſpirit and in trueth: when in your outward exerciſe of religion, there is ſcarſely any one thing to bée ſéene, that ſauoreth any thing at all of the ſpirite, but altogeather of the fleſh? yea very fewe thinges that God hath commaunded, are to bee ſéene in your outward profeſſing of Chriſt: but very many things that God hath flatly forbidden. Your temples or Churches ſtuffed full of images: and howe dooth the temple of God agree with images? 2, Cor, 6.2, Cor, 6, your Churches builded and conſecrated to the honor of creatures, as of Angels and Saints? Your ſolemne feſtiuall dayes yerely obſerued in the honor of creatures. Your inuocations and prayers: Your burning of incence before dead images and liuing men, and before that Sacrament, which our Chriſt ordayned to be receiued, in the remembraunce of his death and paſſion, and not to bée worſhipped: your offering vp of this ſacrament, as a ſacrifice for the ſinnes both of the quicke and of the dead: your hanging of it ouer your Alters and your carying of it about in your pompous proceſſions: your harmonious muſicke, with the voices of men and children together, and the noiſe of Organes and other loude inſtruments of Muſicke: your ringing of Belles, your burning of lightes in the open daylight, with I wot not how many other toyiſhe diuiſes that are vſed by you in your exerciſe of religiō: what one ſparke of ſpirituall ſeruing and honouring of God can there be in them?
But your baptiſme (although you hauehave diuiſed manie madde toyes which you doo vſe in the miniſtration therof) remaineth the ſame in ſubſtance that our Sauiour Chriſt dyd commaund to be miniſtred to ſuch as ſhould beléeue by the preaching of the Goſpell. Math, 28.Math, 28. Goe your way, and teach all nations, baptiſing them in the name of the father, of the ſonne, and of the holy Ghoſt. You baptiſe not in the name of Antichriſt, but in the name of the holy trinity, the Father, the Son, and the holy Ghoſt. The baptiſme therefore that we hauehave receiued amongſt you, is as effectuall to vsus, as the Baptiſme that we miniſter to our infantes is to them?
Now you doo (I hope) ſée, that your two horned argument, dooth not ſtand vponupon ſo ſure a ground, as you ſéemed to be perſwaded that it dyd. Wée may ſay yea to your queſtion: and yet not affirme that there is an other way to ſaluation, then by Chriſt. And wée may ſay no to your queſtion: and not be enforced thereby to deny that any of the people that profeſſed Chriſt for the ſpace of, 1000. yeeres were ſaued. Nowe therefore I require you to remember your promiſe, and to recant, which you hauehave hetherto refuſed to doo.
The eighteenth Offer.
Offeter.
Eighteenth. Let the learned Proteſtant make proofe vntounto me, how theyr hidde, vnknowen and ſecret Church, not hauing in it the Doctrine of Chriſts Goſpell openlie, taught, no miniſtration of Sacramentes, no ſpirite of Propheſieng, no diſcipline or rod of correction, no ordering of Biſhops, Preeſtes, and Eccleſiaſticall miniſters, nor yet any other ſpirituall function executed in the ſame, for the ſpace of a thouſand yeres together: Let hym prooue their hidde and vnknowen Church, with the lacke of all theſe thinges, to be the true ſpouſe and Catholique Church of Chriſt: and I will recant, and not before.
Crowley.
I hauehave already prooued ſufficiently, that although our Catholique Church, was by Antichriſtian tirannie, verie ſore oppreſſed, and by Popiſh ſuperſticion, and by blaſphemous idolatrie meruailouſly ouercountenaunced: yet in all that time of a thouſand yéeres that this Offerer ſpeaketh of, it was neuer ſo hidde, ſo vnknowen or ſo ſecret, but that it was ſtill the Cittie on the hill, the Candle on the candleſticke, the ſalt and the light of the world, euen as it was in the time of Chriſts being on earth in our nature, and vnderunder ye firſt ten horrible perſecutions. The doctrine of the Goſpel of Chriſt was taught, and the ſacramentes of Chriſt were miniſtred in it, as openly as the Tiranny of Antichriſte would ſuffer. It had the ſpirite of prophecie in as large meſure as our head Chriſt Ieſus knew to be méete for vsus. The rodde of correction, or diſcipline was as much exerciſed as it might bée by them that had the power of the ſworde taken from them, and continually vſed againſt them. They lacked neyther Biſhops, Préeſtes, nor other eccleſiaſticall miniſters, ſuch as the heauenly father knewe to bée neceſſarie for them. Theſe (although they were not ordered after the Antichriſtian manner, by receiuing the marke of the beaſt) had theyr lawfull calling from God by man: and dyd execute theyr function faythfully, and ſhewed therin no ſlackneſſe, but ſuch as was enforced by open and bloodie Tirannie.
Theſe thinges hauehave béene ſufficiently prooued before, and that our Church was not ſo hydde, vnknowen and ſecret, in the tyme that is paſt of the .1000. yéeres that this Offerer ſpeaketh of, neyther is it at this day in any part of the world, ſo hidde, &c. As this Offerer would beare vsus in hand that it was and is in places where it is perſecuted and ſhalbe till the whole time of the deuils libertie ſhalbe complet and ended. I doo not therefore ſée wherefore you ſhould not recant, as you hauehave promiſed.