An Answer to Six Reasons of Thomas Pound, Part 6
¶The …ixt Reaſon.
YOur ſixt and laſt Reaſon, moſt weyghtie of all, is this: Becauſe, if we wyll refuſe the authoritie, of the Churches abſolute iudgement vppon the ſcriptures true ſence: We ſhall ſéeme plainely to deny the holy Ghoſt to be the ſpirite of trueth. &c. This Reaſon I hauehave called Fanaticall. For that in making ſo great an accoumpt of this Reaſon: you ſéeme not to be in your right wittes. What bedlem would abuſe the wordes written in the fowretéene of Iohn as you doo: to prooue, that becauſe our Sauiour Chriſte dyd praye for, and obtayne, and dyd giuegive the holy Ghoſt, the ſpirite of trueth, to his holy Apoſtles, and dyd promiſe that the ſame ſhould remayne with them for euer, and inſtruct them in all trueth: therfore the ſame holy Ghoſt muſt néedes be, and remayne ſtyll in that Church, which agréeeth with the Church of the Apoſtles onelyonly in name, and is no more lyke the Apoſtles Church in doctrine and manners, then blacke is lyke to whyte, and God is lyke the Diuell.
The Wiſe man ſayth,Sap. 4. that Wiſedome wyll not enter into a malicious ſoule: neyther wyll ſhe dwell in a body that is ſubiect to ſinnes. For the holy ſpirite of Wiſedome, flyeth from deceite. &c. And ſhall we thinke that the holy Spirite of trueth hath bene, and wyll be ſtyll amongſt ſuch a rabble of Popes, Cardinalles, and other Catholiques, as your owne Hiſtories make mencion of, that hauehave (beſides theyr beaſtly lyfe) made decrées directlie, contrarie to Gods commaundements? Yea, ſhall we thinke that the Spirite of Chriſte, dwelleth amongſt thoſe Catholiques, that at this day doo in the twentie and fiue Seſſion of the Councell of Trent, pronounce all ſuch accurſſed,Tom. 4. as doo ſhewe them ſelues, eyther by doctrine or otherwiſe, to miſlyke with the hauing of Images in Churches: ſeeing the ſame is dyrectly contrarie to the ſecond commaundement of God? Shall we thinke that the holy ſpirite of God, dyd guide thoſe your Catholique Fathers, when they dyd in the ſame Seſſion, blanche the counterfeyting of Gods Maieſtie by an Image?
And thinke you that Eſay the Prophet, if he were now lyuing,Eſai. 59. would allowe your applying of his wordes to ſuch Catholiques, and to theyr doinges: ſéeing the ſame Prophete dooth ſo earneſtly ſpeake againſt the making of Images,Eſai. 44. ſcorning bothe them and theyr makers, and plainly affyrming that they be good for nothing.
The Scribes, the Phariſies, the high Prieſtes, and Doctors of the lawe: might as well hauehave mainteyned, theyr corrupt Doctrine and Traditions againſt Chriſt and his Apoſtles (euen by thoſe words of Eſay, that you applie for your purpoſe) as you may now by the ſame, mayntaine all the corrupt Doctrines and Traditions of your Catholiques. For they dyd then perſwade them ſelues (as you doo now) that the promiſe was made to them, & could not but be perfourmed to them. And that therfore Chriſte and his fauters, were Sciſmatiks and méete to be excommunicated, as by them they were, in déede, and as by you, we be now.
But to our great and vnſpeakable comfort: our ſauiour Chriſte hath foretolde vsus of this, ſaying. Theſe wordes hauehave I ſpoken vntounto you, that you ſhould not be offended.Iohn. 16. They wyll excommunicate you, and the time will come, wherin whoſoeuer ſhall hyll you, will think that he dooth God good ſeruice.
And that promiſe alſo, that you would ſ…me to reioyce ſo much in…ia in déede as cōfortable to vsus, as you would hauehave men thinke that it is to you.
We knowe that the Spirite of trueth departeth not from Chriſte in his members the Church, the true and vnfeyned Catholique Church. Neyther doo the wordes that the heauenly Father put into the mouth of Chriſt, his onelyonly begotten Sonne, depart out of his mouth, the true Catholique Church: and yet dare not we make that Church▪ Iudge of that worde. For they were not put into her mouth to that ende, that ſhée ſhould iudge them: but that ſhée ſhould in all her doinges, be iudged tryed, and directed by them.
As ſottiſhe as you ſay, our opinion is: we are ſo farre from holding, that euerie priuate man, may hauehave leaue to be his owne Iudge in vnderſtanding the Scripture: that we doo not graunt it to the beſt learned, but doo leaue it to him, that béeing (with humilitie of minde) ſought in the Scriptures, wyll be found there, yea, euen by Crafts men, ſuch as was Peter, and his fellow fiſher men. For he reſpecteth not mens perſons, nor Occupations. And vntounto them that ſo ſéeke him there (whether they be many or fewe) he wyll open the ſence of vnderſtading, that they may vnderſtand, as much as he knoweth to be méete for them to vnderſtand. And ſuch as hauehave that humble ſpirit, wyll not ſearch for, nor ſhewe them ſelues deſtrous to knowe, any more.
Well, now you conclude, vponupon that which you ſay we muſt néedes graunt, that is, that the Church is our mother, as Scripture ſayth. Well, I am glad that you are now become a Scripture man. But I pray you, where is that Scripture written, that ſayth, that your Catholique Church is our mother? It wyll be harde for you to finde it.
I wryte not this, as one that would deny the Church that is the Spowſe of Chriſte, to be the mother of Chriſtians, in that ſence that ſhe is the Spowſe of Chriſte: But I write thus, to let you ſée, that I lyke not with your manner of concluding vponupon this, being once graū ted. That this mother of ours, that muſt néedes teach all her chyldren, fyrſt to beléeue in God (for that faith commeth by hearing) and alſo to know the Scriptures, and is the pyller and ſure ſtay of trueth: muſt néedes be the abſolute Iudge, and imperiall Schoolemiſtreſſe, to teach vsus all, how to beléeue in God, and to vnderſtande the Scriptures.
This geare hangeth together lyke Iermans lyps (as the prouerbe is:) If you had ſayde thus.
The Church (being the ſpowſe of Chriſte) is our mother, and hath receyued commiſſion, from her huſband, and our father Chriſt, to teach vsus all thoſe things that he hath taught and commaūded her to doo, & to teach vsus his children to doo: wherfore, if we ſhall not hearken to her, as to our chéefe Schoole miſtreſſe, vnderunder her huſbād and our father, ſo long as ſhe teacheth nothing, but that which our father hath commaunded her to teach vsus: we ſhall diſpiſe him, becauſe we deſpiſe her, as it is written. Qui vos ſpernit, Luke. 10.me ſpernit: He that deſpiſeth you, deſpiſeth me.
If you had written thus: a man might hauehave made ſome ſence of your wordes. But as you hauehave written, you ſéeme to make the gray Mare the better Horſe. And to ſpoyle our Father Chriſte of all his power: that our Mother, his Wife, may not be found with out abſolute power.
I ſée not therfore, why I may not for this blindneſſe of your heartes, ſay as iuſtly to you, as S. Paule dooth to the Galathians. O inſenſati. &c. Oh you fooliſh fellowes, who hath bewitched you, not to obey vntounto the trueth? which euen of Infants and ſucking Babes (as it were) is diſcerned, as cléere as the Sunne. So that you muſt not diſdayne, though Maiſter Trippe, doo tryppe you in your owne turne, as a ſéely ſeducer, to maintaine (as you doo all) ſo groſſe an opinion, béeing the forreſt in déede, for all ſuch Foxes to litter theyr whelpes in. And héere you ſéeme to hauehave had one fling at Maiſter Foxe alſo: becauſe you vnderſtoode that he is one allowed in the Kéepers warrant, to hauehave conference with you.
I meruayle, howe Maiſter Turnebull eſcaped your frumpping pen. But to conclude this aſſercion. Acquite your ſelfe as well as you can, why you ſhould not all be ſuſpected to be Antichriſtians, for as much as you doo ſo ſtowtly mayntayne that man of ſinne, that ſetteth vp himſelfe aboue all that is called God, and ſitteth in the Temple of God, and boaſteth himſelfe, as though he were God. Whome the Lord ſhall deſtroy, euen with the breath of his mouthe. And that worde, that you woulde hauehave to be iudged by your Antichriſtian Churche: ſhall iudge bothe Antichriſte and his Church. And that holy Ghoſt that came downe from Heauen, vponupon our Chriſtes Apoſtles, hath remayned, and dooth ſtill remaine, and to the ende of the world ſhall remaine with his Catholique Church. That is, with that Church, which beléeueth, holdeth, and proteſteth, that Catholique Faith, that Ieſus Chriſte, commaunded his Apoſtles, to teach Catholiquely, to all Nations and ſortes of peoples, in all parts of the world. Promiſing that the holy Ghoſt ſhould alwayes remaine with the faithfull, to direct them in all trueth, and godlineſſe of lyuing.
Thus, hauing firſt conſidered, the wordes of our Sauiour, in ſending vsus to the Scriptures, ſaying: Searche the Scriptures. &c. I hauehave founde that the concluſion that you make vppon the manner of ſpeach, that our Sauiour vſeth in that place of Saint Iohn his Goſpell, is not. Secundum vnanimen conſenſum Patrum: (that is) According to the agréeable conſent of the Fathers: and therefore condempned by your Fathers, in the Councell of Trent, in the fowrth Seſſion.
Saint Austine, dooth accoumpt acurſſed, whatſoeuer is taught, other then out of the Scriptures, of the Lawe and the Goſpell. Lib. 3. Chap. 6. Againſt the Letters of Petilian. And in his booke of Chriſtian doctrine, and the .37. Chap. He ſaith: that without the authoritie of Scripture: our Faith dooth but ſtacker or ſtumble. And againe, in his .166. Epiſtle, he ſayth: That bothe Chriſte and his Church, are learned to be knowne in the Scriptures.
Baſill ſayth,In Aſceticis. that whatſoeuer is taught without the holy Scripture, is ſinne.
Chryſostome, in his ſecond expoſition vppon Mathew, ſayth: that the true Church cānot other wiſe be known then by the holy Scriptures. Homilia. 49.
Yea, Saint Auſtine, in his firſt booke that he wrote, againſt the Epiſtle of Parmenianus, and the ſecond Chap: dooth accoumpt it to be raſhneſſe, to giuegive credite, to any, that dooth not prooue by Scripture, that which he affyrmeth.
I dare not therefore, giuegive credite to that which you hauehave written, tyll you prooue it by Scripture.
As for your ſixe Reaſons that you ſtay vponupon, I hauehave conceyued, and doo vnderſtand what they be. And as in the beginning of your Pamphlet, you deſire: ſo hauehave I taken Pen in hande, and hauehave done what I can to confute them. And as I thinke, hauehave doone it ſufficiently. If you can replie, doo you take pen in hande againe, and doo what you are able. I wyll not refuſe to trie the trueth of theſe matters, with you, or with the beſt on your ſide.
Haec eſt fides mea: quia vera, Chriſtiana, Catholica, & Apoſtolica.
This is my Faith: becauſe it is the true, Catholique, and Apoſtolique Faith.
Robertus Crowleus. Subſcripſit Henricus Trippe, Hijs quae à Domino R. C. reſponſa ſunt.
¶A breefe Aunſwer to Maiſter Pownds ſix Reaſons▪ Written by Maiſter Henrie Trippe.
MAiſter Pownd: hauing peruſed the aunſwer of Maiſter Crowly to your ſixe Reaſons, and finding them ſufficiently aunſwered, by that godly Father, (whome you thinke not to be worthy naming, as you write to me:) I thought good rather to ſubſcribe to his aunſwer, then to frame an other: How be it, to take from you the aduauntage of glorying, which I thinke you will eaſily take againſt me, as not being able to anſwere you: I wil breefly vrge you in ſome pointes, wherein I ſée he hath ſpared you.
And firſt I muſt néedes ſhew you, that all your Reaſons are ſet one a tottering foundation: becauſe ye Iudge her ſelfe is not cleared of ſuſpition, for you take it as a thing graūted, that the Churche of Rome is the ſpowſe of Chriſt, which thing is in cō trouerſie, betwene vsus. It had bene therfore an orderly procéeding, to hauehave dealt firſt with that matter, and to hauehave put it out of doubt, that your Reaſons in appealing to her iudgement, might hauehave bene the ſtronger▪ Pighius one of your owne men confeſſeth, that the queſtion of the Church ought firſt to be diſcidid. Thus you builde vponupon a falſe principle, and ouerthrowe the force of your owne Reaſons, if happily they had any force.
Secondly, that which you bring out of ye fift of S. Iohns Goſpell, to prooue the ſcripture to be but witnes bearer to ye truth and not the Iudge, though it hauehave ſome ſhew of reaſon, yet being well wayed, it well vaniſhe: for you imagine, becauſe you finde the worde witneſſe, which is, Verbum forence: That by & by you muſt hauehave a pitched Court, & a iudgement ſeate, where ſhall be preſented many perſons, in ſeuerall places, one to be witneſſe, an other to be Iudge, and perhaps ſome to be iuſtified, and ſome to be condempned. But if you had wayed other places of ſcripture, you ſhoulde hauehave ſéene that the holy Ghoſte admitteth no ſuch ſtraight collctions: but framing his writing to our capacitie: Uſeth ſome time one phraſe, and ſometime an other. And you might hauehave found where the worde is called a Iudge, as in the twelfth Chapter of the ſame Euangeliſt If any man heare my wordes, and beleeue them not, I iudge him not. &c. He that refuſeth me, and receyueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him. The word that I hauehave ſpoken, ſhall iudge him in the laſt day. For I hauehave not ſpoken of my ſelfe. &c. Now iudge you how ſoundly you hauehave gathered: it is witneſſe therefore not Iudge, or not rather bothe a witneſſe & a Iudge. So might you reaſon of the diuerſe Metaphors giuen to the word, which is called, Bread, Wine, Oile, Milke, Hony, Water, Raine, Light, Fyre, Golde, Siluer, Pearle, and Iron rod, Scepter. Sword, & the breath of the Lords mouth. Now were it not a fonde Reaſon to gather, becauſe it is the breath of the Lordes mouth: therfore it is no Sword, becauſe it is a ſword or Iron rod: therfore it is not Gold. &c. Or becauſe it is Gold, therfore it is no bread, when as the holy Ghoſt hath ſet downe thoſe ſundrie Metaphors, to expreſſe the power, dignitie, and commoditie of the worde. But this is none of your ſix Reaſons and therfore the weight of your cauſe lyeth not vponupon it: yet in pronouncing your Treatiſe before witneſſe, you gaue it a greate force.