An Answer to Six Reasons of Thomas Pound, Part 5
The fift Reaſon.
YOur fift Reaſon, I hauehave called Fradulent, becauſe you doo therein compare the lawes and Scriptures of God, to the lawes of men, made for ciuill pollicie and gouernment. And the Iudges & gouernors in ciuill pollicie, to the Eccleſiaſtical miniſters, & gouernours of the Church of Chriſt, in matters of faith. This is fraudulently, to bring y• holy Scriptures (which of right are the toutchſtone, for all mennes iudgements to be tryed by) to be vnderunder the iudgement of ſome one man, as your Pope▪ (who challengeth authoritie, aboue the generall Councels) or of that number of men that ſhalbe gathered together in a generall Coūcell (which doo challenge authoritie aboue the Pope.) But God that is Author of all perfection, and dooth diſpoſe eueryevery thing in a ſwéet and decent order: hath prouided much better for his Catholique Church, héere millitaunt on earth, then that it ſhould be driuen to ſéeke for reſolution of doubts, at the bandes of ſuch Iudges as may erre, as your Pope and generall Councels hauehave and may doo.
The Father of lyghts, the giuer of all good gyftes, in whome there is no chaunge or ſhewe of variableneſſe. The Spirite of trueth, that can neyther deceyue, nor be deceyued: is ready at hand with eueryevery one, that in humilitie of minde craueth wiſedome, and wyll not ſuffer any ſuch, lōg to be in doubt of any thing, the knowledge whereof is neceſſarie to ſaluation. If you (ſayth our ſauiour) which be naught, doo know how to giuegive good gifts to your children. How much more ſhall your heauenly Father,Luk. 11. giuegive the holy ſpirit, to them that aſke it of him? Gods chyldren may be bolde (in ſuch caſes as I hauehave ſpoken of) to craue Gods ſpirite, and aſſure themſelues▪ to receyue it at his handes.1. Pet. 5. But the proude and hauty minded, ſhalbe as ſure to finde God theyr enimie.
This Iudge is alwayes ready in the ſcriptures, to open the vnderſtādings of as many as doo reſort thether (with humilitie of minde) ſéeking there to be reſolued of theyr neceſſarie doubts.
That both your Popes, & generall Coūcels hauehave erred (& therfore may erre) I wil by Gods help plainly proue.
Firſt, if it were poſſible to perſwade you, that to make a decrée directly, contrarie to the expreſſe commaundement of God, is an error: then it ſhould be an eaſie matter to cauſe you to confeſſe, that bothe a Pope, and a generall Councell hauehave erred.
For, the ſixt generall Councell, holden at Conſtantinople, where .289. Biſhops were gathered together: it was amongſt other thinges decréede, that holy Images ſhould be had in Churches, and that the ſame ſhould be with great reuerence worſhipped.Tom. 1. And this Councell was holden when the firſt Agatho was Pope, and this decrée was allowed by him.Diſti. 16. And afterward by Adrian the firſt Pope of that name.
So that one generall Councell, and two Popes, hauehave erred in one decrée, made againſt, and directly contrary to Gods commaundement. Thou ſhall not make to thy ſ…l…e any grauen Image. &c.
Iohn ths.An. 956. Vorat. Plat. 12. of that name, behaued him ſelfe ſo well in his nine yéeres gouernment: that one Hiſtorian calleth him, Sceleratum virum. A man giuen ouer to all wickedneſſe. And an other calleth him. Monſtrum hominis. A Monſter amongſt men. And at the laſt he was ſlaine, being taken in adulterie.
But peraduenture you wyll ſay: theſe faults procéede of humane infirmitie. But what wyll you then ſay to Sylueſter the ſeconde,Plat. Volat. that gaue him ſelfe to the Diuell, that he might obtaine ye Popedome, which he obtayned in déede, and dyd enioy it fowre yéeres.
Benedictus the ninthe, lyued ſo wickedly, governing the Church fiftéene yéeres: that one Hiſtorian ſayth, he was,Volat. Vir plane probroſus & infamis, that is: A man altogether worthy of reproches, or euyll reportes, and infamous: And an other ſayth: that after his death, hée was ſéene in an horrible ſhape,Plat. and that be ſayde thus. Iuſto Dei iudicio damnatus sum, quia fine Lege vixi. I am dampned, euen by the iuſte iudgement of GOD: becauſe I lyued without lawe.
If all this wyll not ſuffiſe you, conſider I pray you▪ the Councell of Baſill: holden in the yere .1431. And Pope Eugenius, that in thoſe dayes ruled the Church .16 yéeres. This Engenius dyd once allowe the decrées of that Coūcell: And afterward he did diſallow the ſame. Whereby, it is manifeſt that he erred, either in the firſt or in the laſt. And if the Popes authorite be aboue the Councell: then that Councell dyd erre in depoſing that Pope. And if the Councell be aboue the Pope: then did that Pope erre in excomunicating that Councell.
If you wyll take paines in reading the Hiſtories; you ſhall finde amongſt the Popes, the Saduces errour, the Arrians errour, the Pellagians errour mainteyned. Yea you ſhall finde, and we doo ſée manifeſtly, that at this day, your whole Church dooth mainteyne the hereſie of the Anthropomorphits. For you hauehave in all your Churches, the Image of God the Father: reſembling an olde man with gray haires, as though tyme had now made him olde, as it dooth all creatures.
But when your Church had thrée Popes at one time, Iohn the .23. Gregorie the .12. and Benedict the .13. To which of theſe would you hauehave ſent vsus, for reſolution of our doubtes▪ Yea, and when your Church was two yéeres together, without eyther Pope or generall Coū cell: whether would you hauehave wiſhed vsus, to leaue the Iudgement in matters of Church cōtrouerſies, at that tyme? I hope you wyll no longer wiſhe vsus to leaue the Scripture that neuer did, nor ſhall fayle vsus, and depend vponupon ſuch Iudges as theſe, that hauehave ſo often failed, and as yet, were neuer full agréed.
As for your compariſon that you make betwixt the Churches and worldly kingdomes: it is not woorth a Walnut. And your ſimilitude of a wyſe Burgeſſe in Parliament: we weigh not. We knowe, and confeſſe, that mens lawes are not, neither can be made ſo plaine or perfect, but that it is neceſſary, that there be Iudges that may hauehave authoritie to diſcide thoſe cōtrouerſies yt may ariſe by occaſiō of ſiniſter conſtruing of ye meaning of the words of the lawe, or by occaſion of the darkneſſe of the ſame. But where finde you any ſuch darkneſſe, or imperfection,Pſal. 119. in the Scriptures of God? Dooth not Dauid ſay: Lucerna pedibus meis verbum tuum, & lumē ſemitis meis. Thy worde (ſayth Dauid) is a Lanterne to my féete, and a lyght to my pathes.
Take héede that you be not one of them that Eſay ſpeaketh of.Eſai. 5. That doe call lyght darkneſſe, and darkneſſe lyght. &c.
I doo graunt, that there may ſome queſtion ariſe amongſt men, about the vnderſtāding of ſome places of Scripture: but this ryſeth not of the darkneſſe that is in the ſcriptures, but of that darkneſſe that is in mans vnderſtanding. Which till it be opened by the mercifull goodneſſe of God:1. Cor. 2. cannot perceyue thoſe thinges that doo belong to the ſpirite of God.
And we doo thinke it neceſſarie, that there be good, and learned men choſen, & put in authoritie in the Church, ſuch as may (when néede is) call together ye moſt graue, wyſe, and godlie learned perſons, in the feare of God, to delyberate for the good gouernment of the Church, and to take order, that all thinges in the Church, may be done to the edification of the ſame, according to the rule of S. Paule. 1. Cor. 14.And if any proude or froward perſon, or any ſimple or ignoraunt perſon, doo mooue any queſtion: or his, or theyr miſdemeanour, doo cauſe any queſtiō to be mooued, or any doubt to aryſe, about the true meaning of any part of the Scripture: We thinke it méete, that in theſe caſes, thoſe places of Scripture be reuerendly weighed, by thoſe, wyſe, learned, graue, & godlie men, ſo called together in the feare of God. And that the perſons ſo in doubt, be by them certified, of the true meaning of thoſe places. And that (if they will not yéeld to that interpretation that ſhall be made by thoſe men, and prooued by due circumſtances, & conference of thoſe places with other, to be the verie meaning of the holie Ghoſt in thoſe places) then we holde thoſe men for Heretiques, and doo iudge them worthy to be excommunicated.
Thus (if you wyll) you may ſée, that we are ſome thing wiſer then your Burgeſſe in Parliament: and not ſo worthy to be laughed to ſcorne as he: Although we doo not make theſe men Iudges of the ſcripture: but we doo put them in truſt to ſearch the Scriptures, that both they and we may ſubmit our ſelues, to that iudgement, which they, by theyr reuerende ſearching, ſhall finde in the Scriptures. As for the fortie places of Scripture that the Arrians brought, for the defence of theyr horrible Hereſie: we are able enough (by the help of God) to ſet foorth plainly in theyr true meaning, and to withſtand the Arrians (without the helpe of our Catholique Church.) Notwithſtanding the fortie places of Scripture, that they bring more then we can bring for the trueth.
And we ſay, as S. Austine ſayth: that the Scriptures to myſſe vnderſtanded, and myſſe applied, are the Heretiques bowe, to ſhoote out theyr owne venemous arrowes. And as Vincentius ſayth: They are the ſhéepes cloathing, which the Woolfe dooth ſhrowde her ſelfe in in &c.
Yea, and we confeſſe, that the Diuell him ſelfe, dyd alleadge ſcripture againſt our ſauiour Chriſte, and dyd applie it as rightlie as Bonifacius the eight did, when after he had one day ſhewed him ſelf in his Pontificalibus, that is,Luke. 22. his Popely attyre, and the next day in the robes of an Emperour: he ſayd thus. Ecce duo gladij hic. Beholde, heere are two ſwordes.
Another of your Popes, ſetting his foote vppon the necke of Fredericus, the Emperour, ſayd Super Aſpidem & Baſiliſcum ambulabis, Pſal. 91. Alexan. 3. An. 1174.& conculcabis Leonem & Draconem. Upon the Aſpe and Baſiliſke, ſhalt thou walke, and vponupon the Lyon and Dragon ſhalt thou treade. And ſurely, as often as theſe wreſters of the Scriptures, doo ſpeake vntounto vsus, the Diuell dooth (as Vincentius ſayth) ſpeake by theyr mouthes. &c.
But héere I leaue your Vincentius and you together, tyll at ſome more leyſure. I may reade him ouer. I can not thinke that hée dooth handle that place of Mathewe, ſo groſely,Math. 4. as you would make vsus beléeue that he dooth. But though he doo, the matter is not great. For there is none that hath any ſence or féeling, in the vnderſtanding of the Scriptures: but the ſame may eaſily ſée, that when our ſauiour Chriſte ſayde. Non tentabis Dominū Deum tuum: Thou ſhalt not tempt the Lord thy God: He had a farre other meaning, then that which you woulde make vsus beléeue that Vincentius dooth gather of theſe wordes. Yea, Athens I dyd firſt write this aunſwer, I hauehave read ouer Vincentius, and hauehave founde that you doo belye him.
But as one miſtruſting the authoritie of your Vincentius: you clap in the necke of it, one ſentence of S. Austine: but you tell vsus not where we ſhall finde it. But if thoſe wordes be Austines (as it may be that they are) they wyll, and doo ſerue much better againſt you and your ſort: then they can againſt vsus.
And thus much to your fift Reaſon: which I hauehave called Fraudulent, for the cauſe afore mencioned.