Concerning a Book by Christopher Lawne, Text 4

Concerning a Book by Christopher Lawne · Text 4

p. 25AN ANSVVER TO the writing and exceptions aforeſaid ſent to the ſame partie, by Mr. Fr. Io. VVhereunto he hath alſo added ſome things more, upon occaſion of the other copie lately printed.

TOwching them that hauehave divided them ſelues from us, and M. A. vvriting unto you therabout, there are divers things of weight which you ſhould do well carefully to obſerve. And firſt how they having left us upon two particular matters (concerning the Churches government, and the expoſition of Mat. 18.17.) they doe not directly keep unto them, as they ought: neyther anſwere the things printed thereabout, ſo long ſince. VVhereunto both vve, and all that louelove the truth, and deſire their converſion, muſt be carefull to keep & hold thē. And even by this their dealing it may appeare, how needfull that our publication of the matter was, both for manifeſtation of the truth held by us, & for meeting with their clamours, and all their diſorderly and unapproveable courſes, ſo much affected by them.

Secondly, it muſt be remembred, that our profeſſion alwaie hath been, and muſt be, to have the word of God for our direction in all things; by it to trie all things, to keep that vvhichwhich is good; and to refuſe and redreſſe whatſoever is evill, or any way erring therefrom: (For which ſee the Praeface of our Confeſſion at the end of it: And in the Apologie pag. 13. & 41: as alſo the Anſwer to Thomas White, pag. 36.) So as there is no weight in it to ſay, Thus we held heretofore; & now we hold thus: unleſſe it could be ſhewed, that it is againſt the word of God, that which now is held by us. Nay ſeeing the faith of this Church, is that onelyonly which p. 26is groūded upon the vvord of God, in the vvritings of the Prophets & Apoſtles; & ſo our faith is the cōmon & auncient faith, vvhichwhich vvas held by Iſrael of old, & by the Primitive churches ſince the cōming of Chriſt, it followeth ther uppō, that vvherin ſo ever we have ſwarved in faith or practiſe therfrō, it hath bē our aberratiō, & not our faith indeed.

Thirdly, concerning the ſpeciall particular in queſtion, our auncient profeſſion hath been,Conſ. a…t. 17. & 19. that the Church is to be governed onelyonly by thoſe lawes and Officers, that the Lord hath appointed in his word, and by none other. From vvhichwhich howſoever vve have erred in our practiſe, yet this is our auncient faith: ſo as that vvhichwhich novv vve doe, is to reteyne our euncient fayth, & to reforme our practiſe according thereunto, as vve are bound daily to grow in grace and in obedience of the fayth. And for our practiſe alſo, if vve vvould inſiſt upon it, our auncient practiſe it ſelf vvas othervviſe, then as lately of a fewe yeeres it had been: vvhichwhich later courſe the people that are departed frō us vvould have had us to reteyne. And ſo they them ſelves vvould have had us kept a later, and leave our auncienter practiſe. Thus much alſo vve vvrote to Leyden before the diviſion vvas made, & then Mr. Ainſvv. himſelf ſubſcribed unto it.

Fourthly, obſerve in their exceptions againſt us, if they be not (almoſt all of them) ſuch as the Anabaptiſts vvould object in much like manner. And a vveake cauſe it muſt needs be, that relies upon the Anabaptiſts, or anie other erroneous grouds. Hovv much better had they done, if they had conſidered vvith themſelues) that vvhē Chriſt himſelf taught doctrine vvhichwhich was not onelyonly ſoūd & true, but evident alſo & cōfortable to ſuch as could underſtand it aright, yet many of his diſciples vvhen they heard it, ſaid, This is an hard ſaying, who can hear it? & ſo both murmured at it, & were ſo offended with it, as they wēt back, & walked no more vvith him: Ioh. 6.60.62.66. Or if they had regarded that which M. Ainſ. hath well obſerved (in his Arrowe p. 27pag. 4.against Idolatrie) that Sathā hath ſeparated mē frō the Church, as by other meanes,1 King. 12.27, 28.29 Iude v. 19 Heb. 10.25.1 Kgs 12:271 Kgs 12:281 Kgs 12:29Heb 10:25 ſo alſo by cauſing them to withdraw and ſchiſme them ſelues for ſome pretented cauſe or quarrel, as did the Iſraelites, & others after them &c.

Fiftly if we ſhould ſet our ſelves to make exceptiōs againſt thē, as they hauehave done againſt us: we could ſēd & ſpread our private letters (as they doe) accōpanied with more ſound & better obſervatiōs againſt thē, touching ſuch things as have paſſed amōg us. As for exāple, a litle to imitate & reſemble their veyn of vvriting, thus: Many troubleſome daies & ful of contentiō hath God exerciſed us here together withall, vvhiles we could not be brought in ſinglenes of hart, vvith humilitie to obey the governours, & obſerve the govermēt preſcribed in his vvord, & to ſeek him in the mideſt of our pilgrimage vvith love & peace. For love of preeminence which hath always troubled the church, hath alſo troubled us, vvhiles the people that ſhould be under the Governors, vvould be over & above them, &c.

For 1. vvhereas vve had learned & profeſſed that Christ was the onelyonly king & Lord of his Church, Conf. art. 10, 17.19.20. Conterp. pag. 175.176. and in other Treatiſes every where as Defen. againſt M. Sm. p. 126 127.128.& had left ūto it amōg mē but a miniſterial governmēt, & that all the multitude of the mēbers, the ſaincts, ought to obey & ſubmit to the Elderſhip in everie church: Now we hauehave lately bē taught,**In their diſpute againſt us & in M. Rob. Iuſtif. 217.225. &c. that the people as kings have povver one over another; and that the ſaincts being kings are ſuperiour to their Officers, becauſe the order of kings is the higheſt order or eſtate in the church: & ſo an order ſuperior unto, & above the order of Officers or Elderſhip. Alſo, that the Church may in relatiō to the Officers being ſervants therein, be called a Lord &c. vvhichwhich things they affirme for proof of their opinion, touching the points in queſtiō betweē us about the Churches government. And vvheras vve have ſtill profeſſed, that the people vvere inferiour and ūder the officers; novv vve have had it much urged about the queſtiō cōtroverted, that the people are ſuperior & above thē. Thus to advāce the people p. 28one over another as kings, and to make them ſuperlours, aboue their Governours, and to intitle them with kingly and Lordly power in the outward policie & affaires of the Church and members thereof (whereas Chriſt hath given his Church no other but a miniſteriall power & governement) what is it els, but in deed to ſet up ſuch Churches & people as ſo manie Idols? Like as Mr. Ainſw. ſheweth againſt the Prelates,Mr. A. Atrovve againſt Idol. pag. 19. & 20. that Idols are ſet up with impietie, when among men, one is ſet up as Head of the Church, others as Archbiſhops, and Lords ſpirituall, &c. For doth it not thus come to paſſe, that as the Prelates on the one hand, ſo the people on the other hand, doe even become Idols: whiles both of them runne to extremities in ſuch advauncing of themſelves, & neyther of thē will keep or be kept in the meane, & in the miniſteriall way, which the Lord hath appointed in his word?

Confeſ. art. 24.2 VVe profeſſed heretofore, that Chriſt gave the power of receiving in & cutting off to the whole bodie together of everie Chriſtian Congregation, & not to any one or most members ſequeſtred from the whole, &c. Now we hauehave been taught, that in caſes of queſtion and controverſie, the greater part of the people are the Church, though all the Elders and other brethren be againſt them, and it being graunted of all, that with the Church is the power, that greater part of the people (though never ſo erroneouſly caried) being the Church, they have the povver, and ſo they may receiue in and cut off, though all the Elders and other brethren (it may be but one fewer, and of much better judgment) be againſt it.

M. Ainſ. Conterp. p. 177.3. VVe vvrote heretofore, that the Elders have the reyns of government committed to them: Now wee are taught, that the government of the Church is not Ariſtocraticall; yea that the people as kings hauehave the povver, and the greater part, of the people (though in error) are the Church: as p. 29is noted before. And ſo then by their opinion will follow, that the greater part of the people, yea that all the people, being kings, hauehave the reynes in their hand; & may decide, ſtay, determine, and conclude all matters of controverſie in the Church: though all the Elders & other brethren be againſt them.

Conſ. art. 34. Plea for infāts p. 180. to 185. Cō te…p. pag. 177.4 VVe profeſſed heretofore that no Sacraments ſhould be miniſtred untill the Paſtors or Teachers were choſen and ordeyned into their Office. Now it is hield by ſome, that ſeing all the holie things of God are the Churches, and people without Officers are a Church, therefore they may without Officers hauehave the uſe of the Sacraments and all the holie things of God: & conſequently may receive in by Baptiſme, confirme by the Lords Supper, caſt out by excommunication &c. And in this writing ſent unto you, it may be obſerved, how they inferre that people without Officers may caſt out, and therefore may receive in, there being one power for both.

Conf. art. 21. Conterp. pag. 176.177.5 VVe had learned that none may uſurp or execute a ministerie, but ſuch as are rightly called by the Church wherof they ſtand miniſters, unto ſuch Offices, and in ſuch manner, as God hath preſcribed in his word: Now it is held by ſome, that people out of office, may execute all the works, and duties of the miniſterie, for Baptiſme, Lords Supper, Cēſures &c. And theſe men in their ſecond exception here vvrite, there is one power for receiving in, & caſting out, & that people without Officers may doe both, as is obſerved before.

Conf. art. 1.10, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27.34, 36. & throughout the Conf. Apol, & other of our Treatiſes, as Defence againſt Mr. Sm. pag. 10, 13, 88, &c.6 VVe learned and uſed heretofore, to applie to our eſtate and uſe the things that the Scriptures teach concerning the Governours and people in Iſrael: Now vve are excepted & oppoſed againſt, if we doe ſo vvith theſe exceptions, and the like, viz. that they had civill auctoritie and government, which the Church hath not; that they could not p. 30in Iſrael forgive one anothers ſinne, as we can now: that the people now have more power, then in Iſrael, becauſe now we follow Chriſt into heaven, And yet the people were typically caried in by the Hyeprieſt in the pretious ſtones on his ſhoulders & breſt: as the moſt holy place it ſelf vvas a type of heaven.whereas the people might not follow the High prieſt into the moſt holie place &c. And vvhat if any other vvould ſay, that by like reaſon the Elders novv ſhould hauehave more povver, then the Elders in Iſrael, becauſe the Elders novv follovv Chriſt into heaven, vvhereas the Elders then might not follovv the high prieſt into the moſt holie place? And that Kings ſhould have more povver nov in religion, then the Kings of Iſrael, becauſe Kings novv follovv Chriſt into heaven, vvhereas the Kings then might not follovv the hieprieſt into the moſt holie place: no nor ſo much as into the holie place, to come to the altar to offer incenſe. 2 Chron. 26. And note here alſo, that Chriſt and the Apoſtles reaſoning from the civil eſtate of the Governours & people of Iſrael, & applying the things of it to the kingdome and Church of Chriſt, & to the Governours and people of the Church novv, ſhould (by this nevv learning of theſe men) be thought to miſapplie thoſe Scriptures, and places ſo alledged by them. As Mat. 21.24. Iohn 10.34. Act. 1.20. Epheſ. 12.13.19.20.21. and in a number the like places.Plea for Infants p. 166.167 268, &c. Treat. againſt the Anabap. p, 16. &c. & ſome grounds tending this way in the Apol. p. 108 &c. & in Anſwer to M. Iacob p. 7, & 13, &c.

7 VVe held that the Baptiſme of Rome vvas as true Baptiſme, as circumciſiō in the Apoſtaſie of Iſrael vvas true circumciſion, and needed not to be renounced and repeated: novv vve vvere taught, that the Baptiſme aforeſaid is an Idol. And vve knovv that all Idols, yea and all monuments of idolatrie, are to be renounced and rejected. Eſa. 30.22. And an Idol is nothing in the wold, ſayth the Apoſtle, 1 Cor. 8, 4. ſo as then ſuch baptiſme is nothing, & ſuch people are an unbaptiſed people, & ought therefore (vvith the Anabaptiſts) to get themſelues baptiſed.

Thus if I would follow their courſe, you may ſee I could note dovvne ſome doctrines and aſſertions, not all of the p. 31ſoundeſt, vvhichwhich our oppoſites have of late delivered and given forth: although I have hitherto held my peace there about. Neyther vvould I yet publiſh them, if there vvere or might be hope of their repentance and amendement. but for your better information concerning them & their dealing, I have thus impar…ed them unto you. By vvhichwhich any may conſider vvhether it vvere not high time for us to look to theſe perſons, and to theſe things, vvhen they vere come to this paſſe, & grovven to ſuch an heigth among us.

Now next for anſvver of their exceptions ſent unto you againſt us: though it be not ſo meet to be done in a private Letter, ſeeing vve have publiſhed the cauſes of the diviſion they made, whereunto they have not yet given anſwer: yet have I thought it not amiſſe, upon this occaſion, and unto you (as your caſe ſtands) to vvrite ſomevvhat thereabout.

For the firſt therefore, which is made by comparing together the underſtanding of Mat. 18, 17. with the Confeſſion, Art. 24. and the Apol. pag. 62.63. I hauehave already vvritten and publiſhed a Treatiſe concerning the expoſition of that Scripture: vvhere alſo the reaſons alledged in the Apologie are purpoſely and particularly treated of: to vvhichwhich I referre you thereabout. And vvhat dealing is this of theirs, that having made ſuch a diviſion, as they have done, they leave the Treatiſe unanſvvered, which was purpoſely written upon that occaſion, and argument, and yet ceaſe not privately thus to inſinuate, as they doe? Beſides, if for their vvonted Phraſe (the Church of Elders) they vvould uſe ſuch termes, as othervvhere the Scriptures in our tranſlations hauehave, and as the vvord it ſelf doth ſignifie, namely, the Congregation of Elders, or the Aſſemblie of Elders, or the like: then both themſelues & others might ſooner perceive the vanitie of their error, and the light of the truth againſt thē. p. 32Neyther ſhould they forget, hovv M. Ainſvvorth himſelf, in his Anſvver to Mr. Bernard, ſhevveth that the vvord is ſometime ſo uſed for the Congregation or Aſſemblie of Elders and Governours, Mr. Ainſw. Conterpoyſ. pag. 113. Laſtly, you may obſerve in the Article of our Confeſſion here alledged,Conf. art. 24. that for the declaration and proof thereof theſe Scriptures among other are cited, Pſal. 122.3. Lev. 20.4, 5. & 24.14. Numb. 5.2.3. Deut. 13.9. all vvhichwhich doe directly carry us for this matter to the Church of Iſrael and conſtitution thereof: vvhichwhich novv (through love of their error) they vvould not be brought unto, for the conſideration and deciding of the matter betvveen us.

Obſerve alſo hereabout, that the povver of receiving in and cutting off given to the Church of Iſrael, vvas by them uſed and to be performed according to order, and not any vvay to vveaken, but to ſtabliſh the Elders auctoritie. And vve muſt not be ſtraungers from the policie of Iſrael, Eph. 2.12. &c. Yea this verie inſtruction in Mat. 18.17. is ſuch, as it accordeth vvith and hath reference unto the grounds and ordinances of God, taught of old by Moſes & the Prophets: as is ſhevved in particular in the Treatiſe aforeſaid, and in the Churches agreement publiſhed there about: So as their oppoſition againſt us therein, is indeed againſt Iſrael, againſt Moſes, & againſt the Prophets: And vvhether thē it be not alſo conſequently againſt the Lord and his ordinances preſcribed in his vvord, let all indifferent men judge. Such is their error, and ſo great is their tranſgreſſion and iniquitie.

And hitherto of the firſt Objection: vvhichwhich in the printed copie, is the ſecond. VVhere furthermore obſerve, hovv vvhen they doe here quote the Scriptures alledged for proof of the 24 Article of the Confeſſion, they doe it thus, Mat. 18.17. &c. vvhereas in the Confeſſion, it is thus, Pſal. 122.3. &c. VVhichWhich is to be noted in divers reſpects: p. 33Firſt, becauſe it ſheweth, that at the ſetting downe of the Confeſſiō, the Scriptures of the old teſtament were obſerved for the confirmation of it, aſvvell as of the newe. Secondly, that Mat. 18.17. is ſo to be underſtood, as may agree vvith the other Scriptures, & namely vvith Pſal. 122.3. Lev. 20.4.5. and 24.14. Numb. 5.2.3. Deut. 13, 9. vvhichwhich Scriptures are in this article alſo alledged, and joyned vvith that of Mat. 18.17. Thirdly, that it muſt be underſtood vvith agreement and proportion to the order and manner of Iſrael, vvhereof theſe ſcriptures doe directly ſpeak. Fourthly, that therefore our underſtanding of it novv, as vve doe, is (in the truth of the point it ſelf) according to our auncient ſayth: and not theirs vvho vvould make us ſtraungers from Iſrael, and vvould perſvvade us that Chriſts doctrine in Mat. 18.17. is a nevve rule for the Churches novv, vvhichwhich Iſrael had not. And that theſe people therefore have in deed left the ancient faith, which thing they object unto others.

Moreover by the Scriptures aſoreſayd joyned together and compared vvith the eſtate of Iſrael, it doth appeare (& reaſon it ſelf doth teach it) that we muſt diſtinguiſh betweē the ſentence of excommunication, and betvveen the execution thereof: as betvveen the ſentence of death, of leproſie, or the like, and betvveen the execution follovving thereupon. Novv in Iſrael the Elders in cauſes of death, & the Prieſts in caſe of Leproſie, had a rightfull povver to give out the ſentence of death and of leproſie and the like, according to the lavv of God, vvithout aſking the peoples conſent, yea and though it ſhould have been vvithout and againſt the conſent of the people, vvhom they call here the bodie of the Congregation. Deu. 1.16. and 17.8-12. and 24.8. with 2 Chron. 26.16-20. Levit. 13. &c. And vvhen the Elders and Prieſts had ſo pronounced the ſentence according to the vvord of God and dutie of their office p. 34then vvas it for the people to performe the execution accordingly: as may be ſeen in the Scriptures aforeſaid, & many other the like.

Thus alſo the Elders may now by vertue & dutie of their Office give out the ſentence of excomunicatiō, according to the lavv of God, and the people ſhould accordingly put it in execution, by avoyding the excōmmunicated perſons till they repent, &c. Or if any of the people can except againſt the Elders proceeding therein, they are to be heard: as in the foreſaid Treatiſe upon Mat. 18, 17. I have vvrittē heretofore. VVhere note further, hovv in that Treatiſe it is often mentioned (& particularly in our agreement about the underſtāding of this Scripture of Mat. 18.17.) that we ſhould alway underſtand and obſerve theſe things according as in Iſrael (in the due proportion & perpetuall equitie thereof): and therefore not to abridge the brethren of their aſſent or any right that doth apperteyne unto them by the word of God: but to doe all things accōrding to the rules preſcribed therein, &c.

And here let me then aſke of this people thus divided hereabout: firſt, vvhether in Iſrael the Lord abridged the people of their right & libertie any way, in that by his word the Elders and Prieſts might admoniſh ſinners, & give ſentence of death, and leproſie, and the like things, vvithout aſking or taking the peoples conſent thereunto. Secondly, vvhether the people have any more right and authoritie in the Churches government novv, then the people of Iſrael had in thoſe dayes: Thirdly, vvhether the people of Iſrael vvere not kings & prieſts, even a kingdome of prieſts, and a holie nation, aſvvel as the Chriſtian people are now: Exod. 19, 5, 6. Pſal. 149.1. &c. with 1 Pet. 2.9.10. Rev. 1.6. Fourthly, vvhether the Churches power, vvhichwhich the Lord hath given unto it, be not a miniſteriall povver onelyonly? Fiftly, vvhether the Elders povver be not miniſteriall under the Lord, in and for the Church, ſo as it is the Lords p. 35primarily, the Churches ſecondarily, and the Officers miniſterially or inſtrumentally for the Lord & the Church, vvhoſe Officers they are: and that therefore there is no vveight in their Objections about the Elders povver, as if it vvere not the Churches, and that vvhichwhich perteyneth to the bodie of the Congregation: but that in deed it is the Churches, & ſo to be miniſtred by the Officers vvhom the Lord hath ſet in his Church, to miniſter in his name, for the Churches uſe and benefit: and that they vvhichwhich oppugne the Officers herein, doe not onelyonly oppoſe againſt them, but even againſt the Lord, & the Church, for which they vvould ſeem ſo much to plead. And finally, vvhether the Oppoſites in the Churches government, as the Anabaptiſts in the Sacraments, vvould not make us aliens from the common vvealth of Iſrael, & that ſo there ſhould not be one bodie of them and us, one Lord over them and us, one ſayth of theirs and ours, &c, as the Apoſtle hath taught us, Epheſ. 2.12-22. and 3, 6. and 4.4. &c. VVhichWhich how abſurd and ungodly it vvere to hold, vve vviſh they may in time vvel conſider with them ſelves, afore moe errors and further evils grovve upon them, then yet are.

Furthermore, let me alſo aſke, vvhy they doe not here ſpeak of themſelves, (aſvvell as of us) vvhat they pleaded to be the Church ſpoken of, Mat. 18.17. as namely, hovv ſome of thē taught publikly, that it is the whole Church & Congregation, alledging to that end, Num. 15.33. & 27.2. and 35.12. as alſo, that Chriſt in this place, ſpeaketh of the kingdome of heaven, Mat. 18.1. &c. and that therfore we are to underſtand it of the whole Church: How ſome alſo pleaded, that it muſt be underſtood, of men, women & children that can ſorrovve & rejoyce vvith others: preſſing to this purpoſe, that vvhichwhich Paul ſpeaks of the bodie and parts thereof ſorrovving and rejoycing one vvith another, 1 Cor. 12.22-26. And furthermore hovv it vvas p. 36alſo affirmed, that in caſes of queſtion and controverſie, the greater part of the people (though vvithout & againſt all the Elders and other brethren) are the bodie and the Church, there ſpoken of, yea though they be in errour, &c. And novv in their exceptions pleading about it, they ſpeak of the whole Congregation, and of the bodie of the Congregation, in an oppoſition againſt the Elderſhip: and ſo ſeeme here to imply alſo ſuch an underſtanding thereof. Touching all which, it were long to rehearſe, eyther what reaſoning vve had, or vvhat might be ſhevved about theſe poynts. But ſome fevve things I vvill note thereabout.

And firſt, if this rule befound in the book of Numbers and lavves of Iſrael, as by the doctrine & allegations aforeſaid appeareth, then is it not a nevv rule, firſt given in Mat. 18.17. as vvas held and urged both often and earneſtly among us. Secondly, theſe Scriptures in the book of Numbers, ſpeak of civil caſes and government: and yet vvhen vve alledge theſe or the like about the Elders, as they doe about the people, they except againſt us, as if vve miſapplyed the Scriptures, and give the Elders civill authoritie: vvhichwhich I ſuppoſe they vvill not give to the people, though they make ſuch allegations about them in this queſtion, as vve doe about the Elders.Num. 15.33. & 27.2. & 35.12.Num 15:33Num 27:2Num 35:12 Thirdly, touching theſe Scriptures and the like, it is certaine, that the ſinners and pleas in Iſrael vvere brought before the Congregation of Elders to be judged by them, as may appeare by theſe Scriptures them ſelves, being compared vvith Num. 36.2. Deut. 19.12.17. and 1.12.16. and 16.18. and 17.8-12. Ioſh. 20.4.5.6. 1 Sam. 2.25. 2 Chron. 19.5-11. Pſal. 82.1-6. Mat. 5.22. Lnk. 22.66. Act. 6.12. &c.

Moreover,Num. 15.33. and 27.2.Num 15:33Num 27:2 tvvo of the Scriptures alledged, ſpeak of the people of Iſrael vvhen they vvere in the wildernes, vvhere they vvere ſixe hundred thouſand men, beſide children, Exod. 12.37. And would they have us thinke, that this p. 37people came together to hear examine and judge the caſes of ſinne and queſtion there ſpoken of, or that the parties there mentioned were brought or came unto all that Congregation, as they vvould have the cauſes of ſinne and ſinners to be brought unto the vvhole Church and congregation among us, yea and the people to be bound to come & judge the brethrens cauſes, that doe fall out from time to time?

And for the third Scripture ſo alledged by them,Num. 35.12.Num 35:12 if it be compared vvith Deut. 19.4-12. it maketh the poynt yet more playne againſt them ſelues. For Moſes ſpeaking of one and the ſame matter in both thoſe places,Num. 25.12.Num 25:12 uſeth in the one place the vvord Congregation, & in the other the terme of Elders: as if he vvould himſelf tell us, that he ſpeaks of the Congregation of Elders.Deut. 19.12.Deut 19:12 To vvhichwhich end alſo ſee Ioſh. 20.4.5.6. where the ſame matter is againe ſpoken of: & Deut. 19.15-18. vvhere after the treating of the former matter, he giveth a generall rule for the caſes that might fal out among them. And vvhether novv vve ſhould beleeve Moſes or them, let themſelves judge.

Touching the phraſe of the Kingdome of heaven. Mat. 18.1. &c.Matt 18:1Mat. 18.1. &c. hovvſoever many have ben caryed thereby to think that this is a nevv rule, and perteyning onelyonly to the Churches of the Goſpel ſince Chriſt, and that the people now are otherwiſe intereſſed in the Churches government then they vvere in Iſrael of old: yet it is evident that the ſame phraſe is alſo ſpoken of the ſtate and Church of the Ievves, Mat. 22.2. &c. and that therefore ſuch collections from this manner of ſpeach are not ſound.

And vvhat is there here taught by Chriſt, that the Iewes ſhould not be carefull to obſerve, aſvvell as vve? Should not they be humble and harmleſſe, as litle children, and ſo enter into the kingdome of heaven? Mat. 18.1-4. with Pſal. 131.1.2. Prov. 15.33. and 16.19. and 18.12. and p. 3825.6.7. 1 Sam. 12.3.4. Pſal. 138.6. Should they not avoyd giving offiences to others: & vvhen others offended thē, ſhould they not deale with them, and ſhevve them their ſinne; And if they did not repent and amend, bring them to the Congregation of Elders, to be further dealt vvith according to their demerit; Or if they did repent, forgive them? Mat. 18.5-22. with Lev. 19.14.16.17.18. Deut, 19.15-19. and 21.18-21. and 25.5-9. with Ruth 3.9-13. and 4.1-13. 1 Sam. 2.25. Eſa. 58.6.7.

And further in the ſame chapter it may be obſerved,Mat. 18.23. &c.Matt 18:23 that Chriſt teaching hovv God requireth men to forgive one another their ſinnes (under the ſimilitude of a king taking account of his ſervants) propoundeth it by the ſame phraſe of the kingdome of heaven. And this alſo is a dutie vvhichwhich God required of the Ievves alvvayes, aſvvell as of us novv. Lev. 19.18. Exod. 23, 4.5. Pſal. 7.4. Act. 7, 26.

And in the next chapter,Mat. 19.13.14.Matt 19:13Matt 19:14 Chriſt ſpeaking of litle childrē that vvere brought unto him, ſayth that of ſuch is the kingdome of heaven. VVhichWhich vvas alvvayes true of the infants and children of the Ievves, as of ours novv. But if any vvould gather hereupon, for babes and litle children (as ſome doe for the men, vvomen, & greater childrē upon the like maner of ſpeach) that therefore they are to have a hand in the Churches government, and that the cauſes of ſinne and queſtion falling out in the church ſhould be brought unto them (aſvvell as to the Elders) and they bound to be preſent to hear and judge all ſuch cauſes ariſing among the brethren: I ſuppoſe the people them ſelves, that hold the former opinion, and make ſuch collections to maynteyne it for the vvhole Congregation, yet vvould think it abſurd thus to reaſon about the leſſer children: although they be of the bodie of the Congregation, & that of ſuch alſo is the kingdome of heaven.

Againe in the next chapter ſave one,Mat. 21.43.Matt 21:43 Matthevv ſheweth p. 39hovv Chriſt ſayd, that the kingdome of God ſhould be taken from the Ievves, and given to (the Gentiles) a nation that ſhould bring forth the fruits thereof. Mat. 21, 43. So as then by the doctrine of Chriſt himſelf, it is one and the ſame kingdome of God, under vvhichwhich the Ievves vvere, & vve novv are. The differences about ſome vvorldly ceremoniall and mutable things, neyther doe nor can carrie vvith them an abolition of the things ſpirituall morall and perpetuall: Neyther may vve at any hand or under any pretence ſuffer our ſelves to be made aliants from the common vvealth of Iſrael, as is noted before.

For the other Scripture,1 Cor. 12. chap.1 Cor 12 1 Cor. 12, chap. the Apoſtles purpoſe is not there to ſpeak of the caſes and pleas about ſinne, and of the maner of dealing therein (as in Mat. 18.15; 16, 17. and as our queſtion vvas among us) but of the diverſitie and inaequalitie of gifts & functions given by the Lord in and to his church for the help and ſervice of all, to the building up of the myſticall bodie of Chriſt. VVhereupon the Apoſtle ſhevveth it alſo by the ſimilitude & proportion of the members of the naturall bodie, and of the ſeverall faculties thereof: vvhichwhich he applyeth and extendeth, even to the feebleſt members, and to the leaſt and youngeſt children of the Church that are but newly baptiſed, 1 Cor. 12.13-22. &c. to vvhom yet he appointeth not the caſes of ſinne and pleas of the other members of the church to be brought for judgement & cenſure, as theſe men hereupon vvould inferre, and as the matter in queſtion is about Mat. 18, 17.

Moreover, the things there ſpoken of the bodie, and of the parts thereof, might likevviſe of old be applyed to Iſrael according to their eſtate; and they vvere then bound accordingly to vvalke, as members of one and the ſame bodie, affording all help ſervice and comfort they could one unto another. Yet this might not then, nor may not now, p. 40hinder nor pervert the ordinance of God about the Elders hearing and judging the cauſes of their brethren, & cenſuring them according to their demerit: but in deede it doth much more ſtrongly eſtabliſh it, inaſmuch as the Governours are by the Lord ſet in the Church for that uſe, and ſo for the benefit of the whole: as alſo, that all the members have not gifts fit for examining of perſons and deciding of caſes and queſtions that doe fall out, and yet notvvithſtanding are members in the bodie, and have othervviſe their good uſe, being fitly imployed, and muſt be holpen of the reſt as their need is, and be partakers of the gifts beſtovved upon others, for their good and comfort.

And yet further, this Scripture is more direct againſt thē, in that it ſheweth how in the Church ſome have a more chief place then others, as the head, & eyes, & hands in the bodie: & are therefore to be reſpected & imployed according to their gifts and place, vvherein God hath ſet them, 1 Cor. 12.14.—28. VVhichWhich is litle regarded of them, vvho in caſes of queſtion and controverſie (vvhere there is greateſt need of moſt knovvledge and vviſedome) vvill then look vvhere the greateſt number of the people is (though they may be of the moſt ſimple) and vvill have them to be the Church, and to hauehave the Churches povver and authoritie to give the ſentence (yea albeit that all the Elders & other brethren of better judgment, but fevver in number, be againſt them): as if the multitude ſhould ſtill be follovved, & that there vvere no difference or inequalitie of gifts, of Office, or other reſpect at all to be had VVhichWhich how far it is from the intendement of this Scripture alledged by themſelues, let all that underſtand according to ſobrietie judge.

And let theſe men if they vvill not be taught otherwiſe,1 Cor. 12. & cōpare vvith it, rom. 12. 3-8.1 Cor 12 yet learne of their ovvne bodies, from vvhichwhich the Apoſtle borrovveth his ſimilitude here: and there they ſhall ſee, p. 41that all the members of the bodie are not given or uſed for counſel and determination in the things that concerne it (though yet they have their other profitable uſe): whereupon it is, that vvhen ſome part of the bodie is hurt, the hand is not uſed or ſought unto to ſee withall, nor the foot to heare, neyther doth the head take them to conſult and determine vvhat to doe there about: but vvhen the head it ſelf hath conſidered & determined (according to the gift & dutie thereof) then it uſeth the help of the hand or foot or any or all the members, according as there is need and occaſion. And thus have all the members their good uſe & ſervice in the bodie, being rightly uſed & applyed thereunto. But ſhould novv hereupon the hands or feet ſay, becauſe they are not ſought unto and employed to ſee hear & determine, as the eye, eare, and head are: that therefore they looſe their right, and are not uſed or regarded as the mēbers of the bodie ſhould? Yet after ſuch a maner plead the people aforeſaid, that they are vvronged & looſe their right and libertie, if vvhen matters of ſinne and queſtion ariſe between brethren of the church, they be not ſought unto, and bound to come together to hear and determine the caſes, to examine and cenſure the perſons ſo dealt vvithall.

Nay though the Elders ſitte publickly to hear and judge ſuch cauſes, and that it be left free for any of the people to come that vvil: yet they thinke they have injurie, unles that they be called upon and bound to come together; and that they alſo make inquiſition and cenſure the cauſes and perſons dealt vvithall; & that the greater number of their voyces (though vvithout and againſt all the Elders) be taken for the Churches ſentence, &c. VVhichWhich in deed, what is it els but as if eyther the whole bodie ſhould become one member, an eye, an eare, an head, or the like: or as if the foot ſhould ſay, Becauſe I am not the hand, I am not of the p. 42bodie: or as if the hand ſhould ſay, Becauſe I am not employed as the eye, eare, or head, therefore I loſe my right, and am not uſed or eſteemed in the bodie as I ought to be? Yea vvhat is it els, but to bring them ſelves into bondage (and in deed to bring an Antichriſtian ſervitude on the people in the Church) vvhen it being left free unto them to come or not to come, yet that ſhall not ſuffice, unles they be bound thereunto, as is aforeſaid,

And ſo it ſhall not be ynough, that the Elders by their Office are bound unto it,Rom. 12, 7, 8. 1 Theſ. 5.12.13. 1 Tim. 5.17.18.Rom 12:7Rom 12:81 Thess 5:121 Thess 5:131 Tim 5:171 Tim 5:18 and ought to have mayntenance for the doing of it, and of the other duties of their Office: but the men muſt (vvithout any allowance for it) leave their trades and callings, the vvomen their houſes and ſamilies, the children their ſchooling and employment, the ſervants their vvork and labour,As may come to paſſe in great cō gregatiōs & when many caſes are to be heard, &c. and muſt come together (though it ſhould be day after day) to heare and judge the caſes that fall out betvveen brother and brother, according to Mat. 18.17. For by this Scripture in 1 Cor. 12. chap. they vvill have it underſtood of men, vvomen, and children that can ſorrovv and rejoyce vvith others, as before vvas ſhewed. And many moe things might be noted about this and the other Scriptures ſpoken of: but theſe few obſervations may ſuffice.

Yet afore I proceed, let me by this occaſion note tvvo things more hereabout in generall. The one, that as it often cometh to paſſe vvith heretiks, ſchiſmatiks & Antichriſtians, that the verie Scriptures alledged by themſelves, being ſearched and duly vveighed, they are fit & forceable againſt themſelues: ſo it is fallen out vvith theſe men in this caſe: as may appeare by that vvhichwhich hath ben ſayd touching the Scriptures thus alledged by them. The other is a thing, vvhichwhich M. Ainſvv. hath vvel obſerved about p. 43Idolatrie, that it is a ſinne which cleaveth fast to all fleſh, Arrowe againſt Idol. ch. 2 p. 23. &c.ſo as the beſt in the world doe eaſily fall into it, doe take pleaſure in it, and are hardly drawen from it: An example vvhereof may be ſeen in the people aforeſaid, vvho being caryed vvith the love of their errour about the matter ſpoken of, vvould chuſe bondage afore libertie (yea and a bondage accompanyed vvith many other evils enſuing upon men vvomen and children) rather then they vvould be dravven from the errour and Idol ſet up in their heart. But I hope their children (if not themſelves) vvill in time grovv vviſer, hovv ever in other things it be too common, that the children remember their fathers altars and Idols, as the Prophet Ieremiah ſaid of the people in his dayes. Ier. 17.2.

Let me alſo about the matters themſelves concerning the greater part of the people, the vvhole Congregation, or bodie thereof; the men, vvomen, and children of yeares; pleaded to be the Church ſpoken of, Mat. 18, 17. deſire to knovv by vvhat Scriptures they vvill novv manifeſt and confirme it to ſuch as are othervviſe mynded:If they ſpeak of 1 Cor. 5, chap. (as ſome doe) that is purpoſely handled in the treatiſe on Mat. 18.17.1 Cor 5Matt 18:17 as alſo, if the vvomen and children ſhould in a controverſie be the greater part, whether then they be the Church there ſpoken of; & have the Churches power and authoritie to excommunicate the men: and vvhether theſe perſons divided not them ſelves from the Church, vvhen they left us; ſeeing vve vvere the greater number both of the Elders and people, vvhom they departed from: Alſo, vvhether the Elders be of the bodie of the Congregation, vvhereof they ſpeak, or not (for here they ſeeme to make an oppoſition betvveen the bodie of the Congregation, and the Elderſhip): And if they be, vvhat place they have in the bodie, vvhether a ſuperiour or inferiour place: And vvhether in the Congregation and preſence of them, the vvomen and children have authoritie (by vertue of that rule, Mat. 18.17. to p. 44examine rebuke and admoniſh their huſbands, parents, & maſters, being there dealt vvithall for ſinne: ſeeing the Church is told; and the vvomen and children are of the Church; and they that are of the Church there ſpoken of, may examine & admoniſh, & are to be heard & obeyed, &c.

Neyther let them thinke much, that I propound ſuch queſtipns, or that I ſpeak thus about vvomen and children &c. For they knovv, that ſuch aſſertions and pleading vve have had from them, and that ſuch opinions are among them. And vve knovv, that if they anſvver directly to the things here and before propounded, the truth vvill better appear, and the controverſie be ſooner ended between us: And what they hold & mainteyn concerning theſe things, is needefull for us ſtill to inſiſt upon, ſeeing that about the underſtanding of this Scripture of Mat. 18.17. they have ſo dealt and left us as they have done.

Other things I vvill omit, that might here alſo have their place and uſe: noting this onelyonly, that it is a ſtraunge & extraordinarie caſe, whē a controverſie ſhould ſo ſtand, as all the Elders ſhould be one vvay, & all the people another way. And in extraordinarie caſes, the courſe and warrant from the vvord of God muſt accordingly be had. But vvhat is this to the ordinarie maner of government in the Church, vvhereof the queſtion vvas among us, & vvhereabout it vvas particularly mentioned at the beginning, that our reaſoning ſhould be?

Laſtly, vvhat vveight is there in this exception of theirs againſt our underſtanding of Mat. 18.17. more then might be againſt Iſrael of old, vvho could underſtand ſuch ſpeaches of the Congregation of Elders, vvithout impeaching any libertie of the people or falling into any errour againſt the truth? But I have ſpoken hereof before: and of this matter, more largely then I purpoſed: though yet not ſo largely as I might, conſidering the point it ſelf, and hovv p. 45they have caryed themſelves thereabout. Novv I vvill come to the next Objection.

IIFor the ſecond, vvhichwhich concerneth excommunication by a people without officers, I have in the foreſaid Treatiſe vvritten particularly thereabout:Treat. on Mat. 18.17.Matt 18:17 vvhere alſo I have treated purpoſely and largely of the place of the Apologie, vvhichwhich they have here alledged: ſo as that ſhould firſt have ben anſvvered, afore they had thus dealt as they have done; eſpecially, ſeeing that there I deſired anſvver & confirmation of that opinion, vvriting in this ſort about it, Where finde we in the Scriptures, that God hath thus laid upon the people without Officers to excommunicate? Where is the precept for it? Which be the examples of it? Or what are the grounds requiring and bearing it out? In the ſame place alſo I noted, that in the Scriptures we may obſerve not onelyonly ſundry exāples, ſhewing how it hath ben done by the Lord himſelf, and by his miniſters and Officers: but alſo divers ordinances & grounds directing and warranting us to doe likewiſe. The particulars vvhereof ſee in that Treatiſe; vvith divers other conſiderations and reaſons thereabout. VVhichWhich might have cauſed them eyther to anſvver us, or at leaſt (as there is noted) to conſider vvith themſelves how the Churches excommunication can be adminiſtred by any but ſuch as are the Lords and the Churches Officers and Overſeers: and how people without Officers can chalendge to themſelves the miniſtration of this, any more then of the Sacraments, &c.

And beſides, you may percēive both by our churches eſtate, and by particular note ſet dovvn in the ſaid Treatiſe, that our controverſie vvas about a Church eſtabliſhed with Officers: and that it vvas before our parting agreed among us, to leave the things concerning people without Officers to further conſideration. To vvhichwhich alſo I do ſtill referre it. OnelyOnly where he ſayth here, that our doctrine overthrowes the conſtitution p. 46of our Church, which was gathered and constituted by Chriſtians without Officers, receiving in the repentant, and caſting out the diſobedient, &c. I vvill hereupon note a fevve things briefly, to ſhevve the errour and vveaknes of their exception herein.

And firſt (omitting vvhat is ſayd before) it vvere vvorth the knovving, by vvhom (or by vvhat Church) the firſt man or firſt tvvo men of this Church (whereof they ſpeak) vvere received in, and by what povver. Secondly, it is knovven and not to be forgotten,Eph. 4.4.5 1 Cor. 10.1, 2. and 12, 13. Act. 2.41.42.Eph 4:4Eph 4:51 Cor 10:11 Cor 10:21 Cor 12:13Acts 2:41Acts 2:42 that by our baptiſme, as alſo by accord in the truth, vve are bound to communion, in any thing lavvfull (as God giveth occaſion & opportunitie thereunto): vvhichwhich thing vvas heretofore ſhewed unto them: though yet they have not learned it as they ſhould. Thirdly, it is alſo playne and uudenyable, that to chuſe or give voyces in election, is not a part of governement, or a dutie peculiar to the governours of the Church, but an intereſt, povver, right, and libertie, that the ſaincts and people out of Office have and ſhould uſe in elections, not onelyonly at firſt, when they have no Officers, but alvvayes after in other elections alſo, even vvhen they have Officers over them. Laſtly, ſeeing our doctrine overthrovveth not the conſtitution of the church of Iſrael afore Chriſt, nor of the primitive Churches after Chriſt, it cā not therefore overthrovv the conſtitution of our Church, or of any other, that is accordingly built upon the foundation of the Apoſtles & Prophets, Ieſus Chriſt himſelf being the head corner ſtone. Epheſs. 2, 19, 20. By all vvhichwhich you may ſee, hovv vayne & frivolous this their exception is. To which may be referred the firſt, ſixt, and ſeventh of the Objections in the printed copie. And ſo touching them, obſerve the things ſpoken of here, and in the foreſaid Treatiſe upon Mat. 18.17.

p. 47For the third, it being of much like nature vvith the ſecond before, IIIthe ſame anſvver that is there given may ſuffice for it. Yet thus much I vvill acquaint you vvith further: that the like thing being objected here againſt me, and vvritten of unto us from the church at Leyden, I gave this anſvver unto it: viz, that the Church may excommunicate any Officer deſerving it, as well as any other member. Alſo that if all the Officers doe joyntly tranſgreſſe and ſo perſist, then the Church which did chuſe them, may alſo depoſe and refuſe them for beeing their Officers any longer, & may ſeparate themſelues from them. But that the people may excommunicate all their Officers or whole Elderſhip together, I deſired to ſee it ſhewed and warranted from the word of God. This vvas then anſvvered, & ſent frō hence in a generall letter to the church at Leyden: as is knovven unto them, and vvas by Mr. Ainſw. himſelf alſo ſubſcribed at that time, for my anſvver hereunto: hovvſoever novv they ſpeake not of it. So far as chuſing reacheth (which being not an action of government, may be done by people out of office) ſo far alſo may the refuſing goe. And vvhatſoever (in extraordinarie caſes) is attempted further, muſt be approved by the vvord of God, that ſo it may be admitted.

And novv for the exception it ſelf, (vvhichwhich is here the third, but in the printed copie is the firſt): note theſe things moreover concerning it: that the particulars of the 23 Article of our Confeſſion here alledged, being found true in the Churches of Iſrael before Chriſt, and of the Gentiles ſince Chriſt: the exception made hereabout can not be of vvaight againſt this or any other Church eſtabliſhed according to the vvord of God, as thoſe vvere, but muſt be alſo againſt thoſe churches vvithall. For which ſee & conſider the Scriptures alledged in the Confeſſion for confirmation thereof. And obſerve here alſo, whether it can be ſhewed by thoſe or any other Scriptures, that any in Iſrael p. 48or in the primitive Churches did ordeyne Officers, or depoſe, or excomunicate eyther thē, or any vvicked perſons deſerving it, but ſuch as vvere Governours and Officers among them.

Which ſcripture vve have indeed thus alledged heretofore.If any inſiſt upon Numb. 8.9.10. which of all other places is the likeſt, or onelyonly like to be objected, becauſe there it is ſayd, the children of Iſrael ſhall put their hands upon the Levites: then note alſo further, that by this phraſe of ſpeach of the children of Iſrael, and other ſuch ſpeaches of the men of Iſrael, the tribes of Iſrael (and the like in the Scriptures) are the Elders of Iſrael often meant & underſtood. As for example, in another the like caſe, they vvhichwhich are called the Elders of Iſrael, Lev. 9.1. are in the ſame chapter called the children of Iſrael, Lev. 9.3. where the Septuagint have in both places alike, the Senate or Elderſhip of Iſrael. As alſo Ioſh. 7.23. where the Hebrevv hath the children of Iſrael, the Greek tranſlation hath the Elders of Iſrael. And verie reaſon it ſelf teacheth ſo to underſtand it. For othervviſe hovv ſhould ſo many hundred thouſand of Iſrael, as then vvere of the people, eyther at once heare or doe the things there ſpoken of? And if it be ſayd, ſome did it for the reſt of Iſrael, then I aſke, firſt, vvho thoſe ſome vvere, but the Elders, vvhom Iſrael novv had. Exo. 3.16. and 4.29. Lev. 9.1. &c. and ſecondly, under vvhom they did it, but under the Lord, vvho ſet them over the people to miniſter & governe in his ſtead. Exod. 20, 12. Num. 11.16-30. Deu. 1.9-18. and 16.18. and 17, 12. and 19, 12.17. &c.

So likevviſe they vvhichwhich are called the men of Iſrael, Ioſ. 9, 6, 7, 14. are in the ſame chapter called the Princes of the Congregation, Ioſ. 9, 15, 18, 19, 21. And they vvhichwhich are called the tribes of Iſrael, 2 Sam. 7.7. are othervvhere called the Iudges of Iſrael, 1 Chron. 17.6. In like maner, that vvhichwhich is ſometimes ſaid to be done by the people, Exod. 20.18, 19. 1 Sam. 8.7, 10, 19, 21. is othervvhere ſaid to be p. 49done by the Elders Deut. 5.23. 1 Sam. 8, 4. In vvhichwhich places & actions common reaſon alſo teacheth ſo to underſtand the ſpeaches, as vvas ſhevved before. And in like ſort may be obſerved, hovv the vvord Church or Congregation is divers times uſed for the Aſſemblie or Congregation of Elders, Num. 35, 12, 24, 25, 29. with Deut. 19, 11.13.16.17. and 31.28.30. Ioſh. 20.4.5.6. Pſal. 82.1. 1 Chron. 29.1.6. with 28.1. &c. as is noted in the other Treatiſe on Mat. 18.17. And many ſuch Synechdochicall ſpeaches (vvhere the name of the vvhole is given to a part) may be obſerved in the Scriptures. VVhichWhich vvhiles men vvill needs underſtand, according to the letter, they grow into many errours, ſome one vvaie, ſome another, as others alſo doe in other things, miſtaking figurative ſpeaches, as if they were ſpoken and ſhould be underſtood literally.

And thus much I thought to vvrite further hereabout: And this alſo, that they ſhould better obſerve the clauſes particularly expreſſed in the article ſpoken of,Conf. art. 23. as namely that the electing and ordeyning of the Officers is to be according to the rules in Gods word preſcribed, that depoſition likevviſe is to be by due order, and that the cutting off by excommunication muſt be done orderly. VVhichWhich clauſes as they bynde us to ſhew by the Scriptures, that the people not being in office may chuſe their Officers, as is proved both there, and in the Apologie heere cited, pag. 46.47. ſo doe they alſo binde theſe perſons thus making exception, to ſhevv out of the vvord of God, like rules, practiſe, or vvarrant, of ordination, depoſition, and excommunicatiō, miniſtred and performed by p…ople out of office. VVhichWhich till they doe, vvhat vveight or uſe is there of their exceptions, ſave that it turnes to be a meanes for the truth to be better found out, and more cleared from tyme to tyme.

IVFor the fourth, it is of like nature vvith the ſecond and p. 50third herebefore: vvhere therefore ſee the anſvvers. And if they vvould here imply a particular matter concerning one of our Miniſters, about impoſition of hands: that is a point alſo left to further conſideratiō among us: beſide that it fell out ſince their departing from us: and therefore perteynes not to the plea about their diviſion, vvhichwhich vvas made before. Yet notvvithſtanding the anſvver vvhichwhich follovves here to their fift and next exception, will both give ſome light to the poynt it ſelf, and ſhew good reaſon of the needfull diſcuſſing thereof: which you ſhall doe well therefore to conſider of as follovveth.

But firſt (by occaſion of that which is printed) I will here annexe a litle more. For now they doe in particular expreſſe this matter, concerning one that was miniſter in the Church of England, and is ſince choſen Teacher of this Church, and received among us, vvithout any nevve impoſition of hands. So novv refer hither to this Objection, the third and fift in the copie that is printed. Touching which, let me firſt ſignify that our teſtimonie againſt the Antichristian hierarchie of the man of ſinne, treated of in the Confeſſion, is not by us reverſed or vveakned any way, but novv is rather more ſound and ſtronger alſo, then it vvas hitherto, inaſmuch as it is more firmely grounded, not onelyonly againſt the apoſtaſie of Antichriſt, but alſo againſt the errours & confuſion of the Anabaptiſts: whereabout we have ben encumbred, not a litle.

For the Anabaptiſts holding that Antichriſt had utterly deſtroyed all Gods ordinances, ſo that there vvas not ſo much as true Baptiſme r…eyned and had among them, thereupon they began to baptiſe thē ſelves againe. VVhoſe errours vvhiles vve confuted (as by our books publiſhed thereabout may appeare): and vvhiles ſome of them objected, that vve ſhould no more reteyne the Baptiſme, then the miniſterie there received: vve had thereuppon juſt occaſion p. 51given us to conſider thereof. And ſo vveighing vvith our ſelves, that one mayne and ſpeciall reaſon againſt rebaptization is, becauſe Baptiſme is an ordinance of God, vvhichwhich vvas had in the Church of Rome, before ſhe fell into apoſtaſie, and hath been there continewed ever ſince the Apoſtles tymes (hovvever it be commingled among them vvith many corruptions & inventions of their own) vve began to conſider, vvhether the like might not be obſerved and ſayd concerning Impoſition of hands, that it vvas had from the Apoſtles in the Church of Rome before her apoſtaſie, & is there continued to this daye; though mixed vvith many pollutions and deviſes of their ovvne.

And entring into conſideration thereof, vve obſerved theſe things among other about it.

1. That Impoſition of hands is of God, and not an invention of man, not a poſt or threſhold firſt brought by Antichriſt into the Temple of God, but had therein afore Antichriſt ſate there.

2. That baptiſme and impoſition of hands are joyned together, among the principles of the foundation ſpokē of, Heb. 6, 2. which vve thought therefore ſhould in this behalf be vvell regarded.

3. That impoſition of hands is in the Church of Rome ſtill given to the Office of miniſterie, & in the name of the Lord: as they doe alſo ſtill adminiſter baptiſme.

4. That vve found not eyther precept, example or ground in the Scripture, binding us to the repetition thereof.

5. That the Prieſts & Levites in Iſrael becoming uncleane, vvhen aftervvard they vvere cleanſed, reteyned ſtill their places of being Prieſts and Levites: And that the children of the Prieſts and Levites ſucceding after them, did miniſter vvithout a nevv anoynting or nevv impoſitiō of hands: Yea that in the caſe of Idolatrie, the Levites repenting kept their function, & the Prieſts alſo, being onelyonly debarred from the altar, but ſtill remayning Prieſts, both doing ſuch duties and enjoying ſuch benefits thereof, as p. 52the other Iſraelites might not, no nor the Levites, but in caſes of neceſſitie.

Levit. 22.1-9. and Ezech. 44.10-14. 2 King. 23.9. with Lev. 21. and 24, 9. Mat. 12, 4.6. That in the Scriptures vvefinde, how ſome Officers vvere admitted vvith it, & ſome vvithout it. As about the Levites may be obſerved: and about the Apoſtles alſo, that Paul and Barnabas had impoſition of hands, vvhichwhich we read not that the other Apoſtles had. Act. 13, 1, 2, 3.7. That ſome Churches hold it not of neceſſitie to be had: That the Church of Scotland (as we heare) doth not uſe it at all, but in ſtead thereof give the right hand of fellovvſhip: That the firſt miniſters and officers of the Dutch and French reformed Churches had no impoſition of hands; becauſe at their firſt comming into order, they had no Elders to impoſe hands: That the ruling Elders and Deacons at this daye have no impoſition of hands among them, as vve underſtand: That neyther the apoſtate nor the reformed Churches repeat it to the miniſters, vvhen they goe frō one Congregation to another among them. 8. And it may alſo be obſerved, that thus vve ſhevv the keeping of communion vvith all other Chriſtians & Churches, what in us is: as vve doe alſo by reteyning our baptiſme, and any other truths & ordinances of God had among thē: which ſtill vve keep, purging them onelyonly from the corruptions wherewith they are defiled among them.

Novv vvhen upon our occaſions, divers things hereabout vvere obſerved among us, vve thought it beſt to ſtay and conſider further thereof; knovving that if vve finde it to be ſuch as ought to be done, vve can doe it at any tyme: or if it be othervviſe, that then this courſe vvhichwhich vve took is the beſt. Other reaſons vve conſidered alſo on the other hand, vvhichwhich I need not here mention. But ſeeing vve found that it was even frō the Apoſtles times in the church of Rome long before ſhe became apoſtate, as baptiſme p. 53vvas; and that the repeating of it among us, and not regarding the having of it there, is a meanes to ſtrengthē the Anabaptiſts in their errours; and obſerving vvithall ſuch cōſiderations about it, as are here before related, we ſtayed our ſelves: and reſted in this, that the Church did chuſe him into office; and that vve did by prayer commend him unto God for his grace and aſſiſtance in the miniſtration thereof: VVhichWhich vve did vvithout impoſition of hands at that tyme: as both our ſelves had before done, at our firſt growing into order; and as the French and Dutch Churches alſo did, when they firſt began reformation among them. VVhereabout if any ſounder and better courſe be ſhewed hereafter at any tyme, we can then proceed further, as there ſhal be cauſe.

In the meane tyme, let it here be obſerved, hovv theſe that thus object, and their partakers, can (all of them) hold that the people having no office may excommunicate; and (ſome of thē) that they may alſo miniſter the Sacraments: and yet can except againſt ſuch as are in office, if they doe but make queſtiō of a ceremonie or any thing thereabout.

And laſtly, let themſelves conſider, hovv the Anabaptiſts object againſt us, that vve receive ſuch for members of our Church, as were baptized by the Prelates and Prieſts in apoſtate Churches: ſo as becauſe of it vve baptiſe them not againe, vvhen at the ſame tyme vve baptiſe others that vvere never baptized before: And alſo, that the leaving & repenting of all the corruptions and apoſtaſie among thē, vvill not ſatiſfy the Anabaptiſts, unles vve leave alſo the baptiſme it ſelf, and hold vvith them that there is not ſo much as one poſt or threſhold of Gods remayning in the apoſtate Church; as ſome alſo of theſe that thus except againſt us, have not ſtuck to affirme.

They that are vviſe and unpartiall, vvill carefully conſider and regard theſe things, though theſe men them ſelves p. 54cannot yet be brought ſo to doe. And novv I vvil proceed to the next objection.

VFor the fift, vvith which the fourth and eight in the printed copie doe agree, it vvas in deed ſayd, that the baptiſme of the Church of Rome is true baptiſme. And ſo it is, as the circumciſion in Iſraels apoſtaſie vvas true circumciſion, and not to be repeated agayne. And if it be not a true baptiſme, it is a falſe baptiſme: And falſe baptiſme is not Gods baptiſme, nor Gods ordinance. For God is the author of truth, not of falſhood.

Moreover a true baptiſme are vve bound to have, when vve have the meanes to attayne it. Els the neglect thereof is ſinne. VVherefore they that hold it not to be true baptiſme, muſt become Anabaptiſts, and be rebaptized. VVhichWhich thing let them vvell look unto.

And ſeeing (in the printed copie) they ſaye, they doe ſtill denye it to be true baptiſme, I vvill here therefore inſiſt upon it ſomevvhat more. And firſt, it muſt be remembred, that vvhen I ſayd, the Baptiſme of the Church of Rome is true baptiſme, they did not onelyonly deny it ſo to be (vvhichwhich alone they ſpeak of here) but affirmed it alſo to be an Idol: vvhereof here they ſpeak not at all. Note alſo, that our ſpeach vvas and is, of the outvvard baptiſme in the Church not of the invvard baptiſme of the holy Ghoſt, which is & may be eyther vvith or vvithout the outvvard baptiſme; & wherof none vvill offer to ſay, that it is not true baptiſme, or that it is an Idol, as vvas ſayd of the other.

Novv therefore upon their opinions and aſſertions, I reaſon further thus: If the Baptiſme had in the Church of Rome, be not true baptiſme, then it is not the Lords baptiſme, ordeyned by him in his Church: And if it be not that baptiſme of the Lords, thē they which have no other but it, ſhould not in that eſtate eate the Lords ſupper, but p. 55ſhould get the Lords baptiſme, afore they come to the Lords table. For as in Iſrael none might eat of the Lords paſſeover, that had not the Lords circumciſion; ſo novv may none eat the Lords ſupper, that have not the Lords baptiſme. Exod. 12, 48. Act. 2, 41, 42. 1 Cor. 10, 1-4. with Act. 18.8. and 1 Cor. 11.26. And ſo by this doctrine & opinion of theirs, as often as they come to the Lords table in that eſtate, they pollute and prophane it, and eate and drinke judgment to themſelves: and therefore had need betymes to look unto it, and to examine and judge themſelves hereabout, leaſt they be judged of the Lord. 1 Cor. 11.28. &.

Agayne, there is but one baptiſme, as there is but one bodie, one ſpirit, one hope of our calling, one fayth, one God and Father of all, &c. Epheſ. 4.4.5.6. 1 Cor. 12.13. Novv the baptiſme had in the Church of Rome, eyther is that one baptiſme, or is not it. If it be that one, then it is true baptiſme, vvithout all queſtion: If it be not, then they which have no other but it, have not that one baptiſme, ſpokē of by the Apoſtle in the Scriptures aforeſaid: and therefore muſt get it, not onelyonly afore they may come to the Lords table, as is aforeſaid, but alſo that they may have the comfort of this one baptiſme, & the true outward ſeale of Gods covenant, to confirme unto them that they are baptized into that one bodie; partakers of that one ſpirit; heyres of that one hope of eternall life; under that one Lord, in that one fayth, the children of that one God and father of all, vvhichwhich is above all, and through all, and in us all. Othervviſe, ſo long as they neglect or deprive themſelves thereof, it vvill follovv upon them by their ovvne opinion and aſſertion (vvhichwhich they ſay they doe ſtill hold) that they ſtand in great ſinne, neglecting or contemning to have the true baptiſme, inſtituted by the Lord, & that they deprive themſelves of great comfort, and confirmation p. 56on of their fayth, about the particulars aforeſayd, touching the bodie and ſpirite of the Lord, the fayth and hope of the children of God even our Father in Ieſus Chriſt.

Furthermore, the baptiſme had in apoſtate Churches, eyther is a ſeale of the covenant of God, or not. If it be a ſeale of the Lords covenant, then ſure it is true baptiſme. If it be not, then ſee vvhat great things vvill follovv thereupon: As firſt, that they vvhichwhich have no other baptiſme but it, have not the outvvard baptiſme that ſealeth unto them the covenant of God: and therefore muſt vvith the Anabaptiſts gette another, that they may be aſſured they have the ſeale of Gods covenant of grace and ſalvation: Secōdly, that there neyther have ben, nor ſhall be in Babylon any of Gods people under his covenant; which is contrarie to that vvhichwhich is vvritten, Revel. 18, 4. vvhere the Lord ſhevveth that he hath his people, vvhō by the words of his covenant he calleth thence, ſaying Come out of her, my people, &c. And if theſe men vvill ſay, that themſelves are not of ſuch people there ſpoken unto, then let them tell us vvhen and hovv they came under the covenant of God, and let them alſo ſhevv it vvithout ſtabliſhing their owne righteouſnes of vvorks thereby: Thirdly, that the baptiſme novv had in apoſtate Churches is not anſvverable to the circumciſiō had in the apoſtaſie of Iſrael: For that circumciſion (though had in apoſtaſie) vvas true circumciſion, & a ſeale of the Lords covenant, to his people; and therefore needed not to be renounced or repeated. But the baptiſme novv had in the apoſtaſie of the Church of Rome, they ſay is not true baptiſme, and ſo not a ſeale of the Lords covenant to his people novv, as the other vvas then; therefore muſt be renounced, and another that is true obteyned. And thus agayne, in this they make themſelves (& would make us) ſtraugers frō the policie of Iſrael; as in the poynt of government alſo vvas obſerved before.

p. 57Neyther will it novv help them to alledge thoſe Scriptures, or the like, as vve have produced heretofore againſt the Anabaptiſts, to approve the reteyning of our baptiſme had in apoſtaſie, vvithout renunciation or repetitiō thereof: as namely, 2 Chron. 30. chap, compared with Exod. 12, 48, 49. Gen. 17, 10-13. Lev. 26.14-44.45, 46. Deut. 4.25-31.2 King. 9, 6. and 13, 23. Pſal. 78.9-38. and 89.30-34. Ezech. 16, 44-63. and 43.7-9.2 Theſ. 2, 3-8. Rom. 11, 2-5. and 15.4. &c. For novv it vvill be anſvvered them, that in Iſraels apoſtaſie they kept circumciſion which needed not to be repeated, ſeeing it vvas true, and ſealed Gods covenant unto them: but that theſe cannot ſo plead for the baptiſme had in the apoſtaſie of Rome, becauſe themſelves ſay, the baptiſme of the church of Rome is not true baptiſme; and ſo not the ſeale of Gods covenant to them vvhichwhich have no other but it. VVhereunto vvhat they vvill anſvver, let them bethinke themſelves. And let thē ſhevv us, by vvhat Scriptures they can approve their ſtanding novv, vvho vvittingly & vvillingly remayne without true baptiſme, to ſeale unto them the covenant of God in Ieſus Chriſt.

Finally, if the baptiſme had in the Church of Rome be not true baptiſme, then (as they alſo ſayd) it is an idol; bearing the ſhevv and image of that vvhichwhich it is not in truth and ſubſtance. And ſo then apply hither that vvhichwhich Mr. Ainſ. hath obſerved in his Arrovve againſt idolatrie, hovv God manifeſteth the vanitie and filthynes of Idols by titles and names given unto them. Pag. 13. & 14.For Idols (ſayth he) are called, things of naught; as it vvere filths, doung or excrements; loth ſome things, or deteſtable; and abhominations; vanities, lyes, unprofitable, falſe-vanities, leaſings, and vayn-iniquitie. Thus he vvriteth of Idols in that place: ſo as by their opinion, the Baptiſme of the Church of Rome, is a thing of naught, and therefore to be eſteemed as nothing in the world, as it were p. 58filth or doung, and therefore to be caſt out; a loth ſome thing, and therefore to be deteſted; an abhomination, and therefore to be abhorred; a vanitie, a lye, unprofitable, falſe-vanitie, leaſing, and vayn-iniquitie, and therefore that all vvho have received it ſhould renounce it, & caſt it avvay as a menſtruous cloth, and ſay unto it, Get thee hence: as Eſay teacheth, vvhen he ſhevveth the vvay vvherein we ſhould vvalk, even thus to deale vvith the monuments and moſt precious ornaments of idolatrie, & therefore much more with the idols themſelves. Eſa. 30.21.22. VVhichWhich till theſe men be carefull to doe with the idols reteyned among thē, they muſt be contented, by their ovvne opinion, to be accounted among thoſe many ſorts of idolaters, which defile themſelves with idols, of vvhom Mr. Ainſw. ſpeaketh in the ſame place of his book aforeſayd.

A great ſinne it vvas that they fell into, if there had ben no other but it, that vvithout juſt cauſe they brake avvay & divided themſelves from the Church vvhereof they vvere: but ſeeing that therevvith they have alſo other very erroneous opinions, and the ſinfull uſurpation of all the holy things of God uſed among thē, vvhat an heavy eſtate doe they ſtand in, and hovv greatly doth it import them, to conſider their vvaies in their heart, and to turne their feet unto the teſtimonies of the Lord? Othervviſe let them remember that which the Apoſtle wrote to the Corinthians, Doe we provoke the Lord to ielouſie? are we stronger then he? 1 Cor. 10.22. And thus much I thought here by this occaſion to vvrite about the baptiſme of the Church of Rome: novv I vvill come to ſpeak of the Church it ſelf.

As touching the Church of Rome, there being alſo at that tyme ſpeach about it to be the Church of God, I did in deede alledge the ſaying of the Apoſtle, that Antichriſt ſhould ſit in the Temple of God; as the Apoſtle expreſſely teacheth 2 Theſ. 2.4. And by the Temple of God, underſtanding p. 59the Church of God, it vvill follow, that Antichriſt ſhould ſit in the Church of God: and is there to be ſought and found: and not among the Ievves, Turks, Pagans, or the like, as the Papiſts & others vvould perſvvade us: neyther that Antichriſt takes avvay wholy the Church of God, and everie truth and ordinance of the Lord, as Anabaptiſts, and ſuch as are herein Anabaptiſtically inclined, would beare us in hand.

Obſerve alſo here agayne, that vvhichwhich is ſayd, Rev. 18, 4. Goe out of her my people, and partake not in her ſinnes, &c. vvhere thoſe vvords, my people, imply the covenant of God continued among them. For thus is the covenant taught and ſet dovvne unto us in the Scripture, I will be your God, and you ſhall be my people. And ſo is Iſrael often called the Lords people, & is thus ſpoken of in the time of their apoſtaſie, by the Prophets: 2 King. 9, 6. & 13.23. 2 Chron. 30, 6-9. Hoſ. 4, 6, 12. and 5.4. and 14.2. Amos, 7.15. and 8.2. &c. And note here alſo, hovv the other clauſe (partake not in her ſinnes) ſhevveth vvhat vve are to leave and renounce, namely, their ſinnes and iniquities, vvherein they tranſgreſſe the lavv of God, and not vvhatſoever is had or reteyned by them.

Furthermore, it is undenyable, and vve have heretofore urged it much againſt the Anabaptiſts, that the Church of Rome vvas at firſt, ſet in the vvaie of God, & was not onelyonly one of the Churches of God,Rom. 2.8. & 16.19.Rom 2:8Rom 16:19 but for their fayth and obedience vvas alſo very famous over the world. Since vvhichwhich tyme, ſhee is fallen into great apoſtaſie and adulteries,Eſa. 1.2. Ier. 2.21. Ezec. 16. & 23. ch. 1 Kin. 12.28-33. & 14.22.23.24. 2 Chro. 13.5. &c.Isa 1:2Jer 2:21Ezek 161 Kgs 12:28–331 Kgs 14:221 Kgs 14:231 Kgs 14:242 Chr 13:5 as Iſrael did in former tymes. In all vvhichwhich her adulterate & apoſtate eſtate, ſhe hath notvvithſtanding ſtill kept (even to this day) ſundrie truths and ordinances of God, & mixed vvith them her ovvne inventions & traditions, as Iſrael alſo did.

VVhichWhich being obſerved aright cauſeth, a tvvofold conſideration p. 60of her eſtate, as of Iſraels: one in reſpect of the truths and ordinances of God ſtill reteyned among them; another in reſpect of the mixture of their ovvne inventions and abhominations vvithall: in regarde of the one, to hold and acknowledge the truth & Church of God there, againſt the Anabaptiſts; in regarde of the other, to conſider and obſerve their apoſtaſie and Babyloniſh confuſion, againſt Antichriſt: and for this cauſe, namely for this defection and mixture aforeſayd, to ſeparate from them, and vvitnes agaynſt thē: being alvvay carefull in our teſtimonie and practiſe to reteyne and maynteyne everie truth & ordinance of God, vvhichwhich was in that Church before their apoſtaſie, and is yet continued therein to this day: leaving onelyonly and forſaking their corruptions and mixture of their ovvne inventions therevvith: leaſt othervviſe vve ſhould be brought our ſelves, or be occaſion to others to fall, into Anabaptiſtrie, and divers other errours and evils, as by lamentable example of others vve have ſeen.

Note here alſo a double conſideration about the covenant of God made vvith his people: one in reſpect of the Lord himſelf, on the one part; the other in reſpect of the people taken into covenant by him, on the other part. Deut. 26.17.18.19. Iudg. 2.1, 20. For it often cometh to paſſe, that the people doe on their part tranſgreſſe & break the covenant: vvhen the Lord doth not ſo on his part, but ſtill remembring his covenant, counts them his people, calls them to repentance, follovves them ſometymes with judgment, ſometymes vvith mereie and compaſſion, &c. Levit. 26.15-45. Ezech. 16.59-62. Iudg. 2.1-20. &c. Thus in Iſrael vvho vvere the Lords people, it may be noted, how they goe a whoring after their ovvne inventions, fall into idolatrie and falſe vvorſhip, runne into ſinne after ſinne, and become an harlot, tranſgreſſing the covenant on their part. Exod. 32. Iudg. 2. and 3. with Pſa. 78.56-58. p. 611 Sam. 7, 3, 4. 1 King. 12.28-33. and 14.22.23.24. with 2 Chron. 12. and 13. and 1 King. 19.10. Hoſ. 6.7. and 8.1. Yet the Lord breaks it not on his part, but ſometymes of himſelf, ſometymes at the intreatie of his prophets & ſervants, he ſpareth them, and doth not deſtroy them, or preſently give them a bill of divorce, according to their demerit; but in his merciemercy (as a loving huſband) he cals them to repentance, and to that end he ſends unto them Prophets after Prophets a long tyme, to dravve thē to amendement, and cals them ſtill his people, and helps them and caſts thē not of: Yet ſo, as beſides his vvord ſent unto them, he alſo adjoyneth corrections & puniſhmments; both for avenging the quarrel of his covenant upon them, and for procuring their converſion by all maner meanes, vvhat may be. As in the books of Moſes and hiſtorie of the Iudges, Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles, compared vvith the Prophets may be ſeen. And particularly in the Scriptures here noted before, and the like: as Exod. 33. and 34. &c. Levit. 26.14.15-25-42-44.45. Iudg. 2.1. &c. Pſal. 78. 1 King. 13. and 16. and 18. 2 King. 5.8.15.17. with Ier. 51.5. and Ezech, 16.59.60. &c. Hoſeas and Amos their Prophecies, &c.

And in theſe tvvo divers reſpects (ſometymes having reference to God, ſometymes to Iſrael) may there many things in the Scriptures be obſerved to be ſpoken diverſly. For example, Iſrael conſidered in themſelues and their idolatrous eſtate, are ſayd to be vvithout God, vvithout Prieſt to teach, and vvithout lavv, to forſake and break the covenant of the Lord, to provoke the Lord to anger by their vanities; not to be the Lords vvife, but an harlot, going a vvhoring after their ovvne inventions, and having childrē of vvhooredomes; yea and that the Lord is not with Iſrael, or vvith any of Ephraim: 2 Chron. 15.3. 1. King. 12.28.33. and 15.34. and 16.13.26.31-33. and 19.14. Hoſe. 2.1-5. and 5.3.4. and 8.1. and 9.1. with Pſalm. 106.29.39. p. 62Ezech. 16. and 23. chap. 2 Chron. 25.7. But agayne being conſidered in reſpect of the Lord and his covenant (into vvhichwhich they vvere received, and) vvhichwhich he breakes not on his part, but calls them to repentance, &c. the Lord is called their God; and they are called the people of the Lord; and their children, borne to the Lord; and Iſrael not to have ben a vvidovve forſaken of God; but that the Lord had merciemercy on them, and pitied them, and reſpected them, becauſe of his covenant vvith Abraham, Iſaac, and Iacob; and that he vvould not deſtroy them, nor caſt them off from him as yet &c. And thus continued Iſrael a long tyme, reſpected of the Lord, notvvithſtanding her apoſtaſic, &c. Iudg. 2, 1. &c. 1 King. 18, 36. 2 King. 9, 6, Hoſ. 4.6, 12. and 5, 4. and 7, 10. and 8, 2. & 9, 1. & 14.1, 2. Amos, 7, 15. (with Pſal. 89.30-34. and Ezech. 16, 20, 60. and Ier. 51.5.) and 2 King. 13, 23.

Yet notvvithſtanding in theſe tymes, the Prophets taught the people to plead vvith their mother, about her adulteries, to ſeparate themſelves, and not to come at the places of their vvorſhip; nor to communicate vvith them, and bring their ſacrifices thither, becauſe in ſo doing they ſhould multiply their tranſgreſſions. &c. Hoſ. 2, 1-5. and 4, 12.14.15. Amos 4, 4, 5. and 5, 4, 5.

And all theſe things are vvritten for our learning, & are to be applyed to the eſtate of the Churches in apoſtaſie under the Goſpel ſince Chriſt. Rom. 15, 4. with 1 Cor. 10.11.

Moreover, beſides that the vvord Church is taken ſometymes more largely, ſometymes more ſtrictly (vvhichwhich about this queſtion likevviſe may be obſerved): there is yet further alſo a double regarde that may be had of apoſtate Churches in all ages, according as they are conſidered and ſpoken of, in compariſon with other people of divers ſorts. As namely Iſrael in apoſtaſie, being compared vvith the Syrians, Philiſtims, Moabites, and other nations, are called, p. 63and ought to be accounted the people of God, vvho have the onelyonly true God for their God, &c. 2 King. 3.8, 15.17. and 9, 6. &c. But being compared vvith Iudah: vvhichwhich ruled vvith God, and vvas faythfull vvith the Saincts, ſhe is called an harlot, not the vvife of God, but a vvhoore, committing adulterie, and compaſſing God about vvith lyes and deceit, &c. Hoſ. 2.2.5. & 4, 15. & 5.3, 4. and 9, 1. and 11.12. &c.

In like maner the Church of Rome in apoſtaſie, being compared vvith the Ievves, Turkes, and Pagans, they are and ought to be accounted Chriſtians, and the Temple of God. VVhere alſo is verified that which the Apoſtle ſpake of Antichriſts ſitting in the Temple of God, 2 Theſ. 2.4. not the Temple of Ieruſalem (as ſome to turne away the truth, have imagined) but the Temple of Chriſtians, the Church of God, brought to the ſayth of Chriſt, and profeſſing to be Chriſtians: as may appeare by theſe ſcriptures, and the like compared together, 2 Theſ. 2.4. with Ezech. 43.7.8. Zath. 6.12.13. Epheſ. 2.11-13.19, 21. 2 Cor. 6.16. Rev. 11.19. and as it is alſo under stood by all ſound writers both old and new. But agayne, being compared vvith the auncient Church of Rome and other primitive Churches in the Apoſtles tymes, and ſuch as novv vvalke in their ſteps and in the good and old vvay, ruling vvith God, and abyding faythfull vvith his ſaincts: ſhe is called, and is to be eſteemed an harlot, the great vvhoore, the mother of the whooredomes and abhominations of the earth, beleeving & ſpeaking lyes in hypocriſie, giving heed to ſeducing ſpirits, and having pleaſure in unrighteouſnes, &c. Revel. 17.1.5. 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3. 2 Theſ. 2.3-10. 11.12.

And thus there being (in divers reſpects) a double conſideration had of the Church of Rome novv, as of Iſrael heretofore, it vvill appeare, hovv in one reſpect it may be ſayd, there is the Church of God or a true Church there, & p. 64in another reſpect, there is an apoſtate or a falſe Church there: as it is ſayd by the Apoſtle, of one and the ſame woman, that ſhe is dead and alive, in divers reſpects, 1 Tim. 5.6. And of the Iewes, that they are enimies in one reſpect, and yet beloved in another, Rom. 11, 28. So Iohn Baptiſt is Elias, and is not Elias, in divers reſpects, Iohn. 1, 21. with Mat. 11.7-14. and 17.10-13. Iudas is an Apoſtle, and yet a divel; Mat. 10.2.4. Ioh. 6.70. The Ievves are the children of Abraham, and yet the children of the divel. Ioh. 8.33.34. As the Prophets alſo called the Ievves, the ſeed of the vvicked, the ſeed of the adulterer, and a falſe ſeede in one reſpect; vvhen in other reſpects they acknovvledge them to be the ſeed of Abraham Iacob and Iſrael, and ſo a true ſeed and people of the Lord. Eſa. 1, 4. and 57, 3, 4. with 41, 8. and 45, 19. and 58, 1. Hoſ. 2, 1, 2. and 4, 13. Eſa. 63, 16, 17. and 64, 9. Ier. 31, 36, 37. Hof, 4, 6, 12. and 3, 4. and 14, 2, 3, 4. And endles it vvere to recount the many ſpeaches and ſeverall conſiderations of things thus ſpoken of in the Scriptures. Chriſt is vvithout Father and vvithout mother, Heb. 7, 3. and yet he hath Father and mother, Luke 2, 48, 49. Ioh. 1, 18. and 2, 3. Chriſt vvas put to death in the fleſh, but quickned in the ſpirit, 1 Pet. 3, 11. Abraham is unrighteous in himſelf, but righteous by fayth, Rom. 4, 3, 5. The apoſtle Paul, and all the regenerate ſerve the lavv of God, and the lavv of ſinne; the one vvith the minde, the other vvith the fleſh. Rom. 7, 25. Peter is a diſciple & an Apoſtle, and yet in other reſpect is by Chriſt called Sathan, Mat. 10, 2, and 16, 23. A leprous Ievv, is a true man and an Iſraelite, but a corrupt diſeaſed man, to be put and kept out of the hoſt of Iſrael, till he be cleane. Lev. 13, and 14, with 2 Chron. 26, 20, 21. Num. 12, 10-15. The Temple is the houſe of God, & yet is made a denne of theeves, Mat. 21, 13. The Emperours of Rome, Babylon, and the other nations, are Kings and higher povvers ordeyned of p. 65God, Rom. 13, 1. with Rev. 17.10 and Dan. 7, 17. yet are they alſo in other reſpect Beaſts, Lyons, Beares, Leopards, &c. Rev. 12.3. & 13, 1, 2, with Dan. 7, 3-6. So likewiſe the beaſt vvas, and is not, & yet is. Rev. 17, 8. And a number the like may be obſerved in other places of the Scriptures compared together.

Novv to conclude this poynt, if theſe things & the like, about apoſtate Churches, and the mixture of mans inventions vvith Gods ordinances in apoſtaſie, be diſtinctly and carefully regarded, they may be (through the merciemercy of God) ſome good meanes to ſtay people from Anabaptiſtrie & other ill courſes, by the conſideration of the things that are to be obſerved on the one hand; and to bring men more ſoundly to ſeparation from the apoſtaſie of Antichriſt, by the conſideratiō of the things to be obſerved on the other hand.

Somevvhat (as it pleaſed God to give me to diſcerne) I obſerved & vvrote, tending this vvay, long ſince: as may be ſeene in the Anſvver to Mr. Iacob,Where alſo I noted my wonted uſing of this caution thereabout, (in reſpect of this, or that eſtate) as alſo may be ſeen in the Apologie, where I ſpake with the ſame cautiō. p. 109. lin. 31.32. pag. 7. vvhere I ſpake of a double conſideration of Chriſtians, in one reſpect, true, and in an other, falſe: as alſo of ſalvation now had in the Church of Rome, pag. 13, and 47. vvhichwhich neceſſarily implyeth, the people of God, and his covenant to be there. For vvhoſoever are ſaved, they are the people of God, and under his covenant in Chriſt. But ſo much and ſo particularly I obſerved not then, as ſince it hath pleaſed God to manifeſt thereabout. God openeth his vvil & the myſteries of his vvord, vvhen and as he pleaſeth, that vve may ſtill perceive and acknovvledge, vve knovve but in part, and that we may be earneſt in prayer, & by all meanes indevour to grovv in grace, and in the knovvledge of our Lord and Saviour Ieſus Chriſt.

And thus much I thought at this tyme by this occaſion to write unto you hereabout. By which you may perceive, p. 66hovv they vvhichwhich for theſe things ſpeak of us, as if we were going back to England, might by this colour alſo ſay, vve are going back to Rome. And you may conſider vvith your ſelf, vvhether the people that lived in the Prophets tymes, and were ſet againſt them in thoſe dayes, might not vvith ſuch pretences and collections have ſayd, that the Prophets had ben declining to the apoſtate Iſraelites, when they called and eſteemed them to be the people of God, & acknovvledged the circumciſion had in the apoſtaſie to be true circumciſion, &c. But novv I vvill proceed to their next objection.

VIFor the ſixt and laſt exception of theirs, vvhichwhich is about having the counſel & help of the Engliſh Church at Leyden (to vvhichwhich therefore may be referred the ninth, and the other three particulars annexed unto it, in the printed copie): note here as in the other before, that they mentiō not the anſvvers that vvere then given hereabout. As namely, that vve vvould permit it: though (for ſome reaſons) vve abſteyned from deſiring it, and ſending for them about the matters in hand, or giving our cōſent ſo to doe. Of which poynt I ſhall vvrite more hereafter. But firſt I would here knovv, why they never ſpeak of this, that vve were conſtent to permit it? Or vvas our permiſſion of it, a denying of the practiſe of it, as novv they object in the printed copie? Did Paul deny that, vvhichwhich he ſpake by permiſſion: though (for ſome cauſe) he did it not of commandement? 1 Cor. 7, 6. Or did Moſes deny the practiſe of that, vvhichwhich he permitted: though (for good cauſe) he vvould not enjoyne it? Deut. 24, 1.

This thing then might have ben better obſerved and regarded of them, then it hath ben: ſpecially ſeeing they knovve vve made queſtion of the lavvfulnes of doing any more in this caſe, then onelyonly to permit it; and ſhevved alſo p. 67then divers reaſons thereabout: ſome vvhereof I vvill novv mention. As 1. that now the other Church and we were in peace together; and if by this occaſion the peace betvveene us ſhould be broken, they ſhould not ſay of us, that vve ſent for them: our care being (vvhat in us layd) to nouriſh peace betvveen us, and to prevent & cut off all occaſions of diviſion: &c.

2. That the Church of Leyden was in the ſame errour with thoſe of our people, who deſired their help. VVhereupon, vve vviſhed it ſhould be conſidered, vvhether vve might approve of any to come in ſuch caſe, but ſuch as vve knevv to hold and maynteyne the truth according to the vvord of God.

3. That former experience vvith others might alſo juſtly cauſe us to be vvell adviſed and circumſpect vvhat to doe in this behalf. VVhichWhich vvhen vve vvrote of to Leyden, them ſelues acknovvledged that it vvas ſuch as might juſtly make us cautelous: but vvithall, they vvrote hovv vve might eſteeme better of them then of the other in divers reſpects, as being more ſtudious of our peace, and more carefull of the cauſe of Chriſt, and that whereas the other would have brought in new doctrines and fayths amongſt us, they if in any thing they oppoſed any of us, Note here the terme of oppoſition thus uſed.ſhould doe it in defence of the common and auncient fayth, both ours and theirs.

4. That vvhen vve vvrote to them agayne hereabout, vve acknovvledged great differences to be betvveene them and the other: but touching the doctrines and queſtions controverted, vve prayed them to conſider, that the fayth of this Church, was that onelyonly which is grounded upon the vvord of God in the vvritings of the Prophets and Apoſtles: and that ſo our fayth is the common and auncient fayth which was held by the Church of Iſrael of old, & by the Primitive churches of the Ievves and Gentiles ſince the comming of Chriſt. From which vvherein ſoever we p. 68had ſwarved in fayth or practiſe, it had ben our aberration, and not our fayth indeed. Againſt which alſo whatſoever ſhould be brought in, reteyned, or defended, it was againſt our common and auncient fayth, both theirs & ours. And vvhether therefore it vvere about the Word, Sacraments, or Government of the Church (as about all theſe wee had found oppoſition) it came to a like end. Alſo, that in all the three vve had reſiſted the perſons ſpoken of (being ſuch as would have brought in among us new doctrines & fayths in them all) though in the laſt vve had done it leaſt of all: and that novv ſtill we purpoſed by the grace of God to ſtand againſt all, that eyther in all or any of them ſhould oppoſe againſt the truth. And here, by this occaſion, we intreated to knovv of them, whether they alſo were not like mynded with the other men aforeſayd, agreeing with them in the points of the church Officers and Governement, as they held and vvrote thereof, before they fell to their errours of Anabaptiſme &c. VVhereunto vve had no anſwer at all from them. VVhichWhich is a thing alſo to be obſerved.

5. That in this tyme, & in the ſame letters, we wrote to them about a letter ſent unto them by many of our people concerning theſe matters (as themſelues had certified us) deſiring to hauehave a copie of it, together with the names that vvere ſubſcribed thereunto, and the things delivered by word of mouth (as was told us) that we might the better conſider of theſe things, & of our peoples dealing thereabout. And vvhen thus vve could not obteyne it of them, vve alledged divers reaſons to perſwade them to ſend it unto us, viz, that the matters written of vvere touching our publick affayres & eſtate, whatſoever might concerne any of us more particularly beſides; that the perſons vvhichwhich ſent it, were mēbers of our Church; that if the thing done vvere good, it vvould abide the light, and they ſhould doe p. 69vvell to follovv the Apoſtles example, vvho ſhevved the Church of Corinth both the parties and the particulars ſignified unto him by them, 1 Cor. 1, 11. but if it were evill, then it behoved them ſo much the more to give,Gen. 37.2 Exod. 20.12, 16. Iob, 29.16 Prov. 18.17. Act. 20.28. &c.Gen 37:2Exod 20:12Exod 20:16Prov 18:17Acts 20:28 and us to have from them, the full knovvledge of the things aforeſayd, that it might be ſeen they did not partake with them in their evill, and that vve might doe our dutie according to that which layd upon us in this behalf, &c. that vvhereas they vvrote their purpoſe was to come unto us, according to the requeſt of the brethren vvhichwhich had moved thē, &c. they gave us occaſion to ſignifie unto them, that till vve knew who thoſe brethren vvere, and what had paſſed between them, we could not ſo well admit thereof, for the reaſons before rendred unto them; that we were conſtreyned the more to defier them to ſend it us, becauſe vvhen the Elders here asked ſome for it (vvhom they underſtood to be of thoſe parties) they anſwered, that here they had not eyther the Originall perfit, or a perfit copie, neyther any note of the names ſubſcribed; & finally, that if they would not ſend it, but ſtill keep it from us, then they and the parties here gave us cauſe to refuſe to hauehave dealing vvith them about the things ſpokē of, & that ſo the hinderance ſhould be in themſelves; & therefore if they would there ſhould be no ſuch hinderance, but that vve ſhould afterward hauehave reaſoning with them about the matters aforeſaid, and did in deed ſeeke the peace & good of this Church, they ſhould ſhevv it forth by ſending unto us a copie of thoſe things, whereabout vve had vvritten unto them three tymes: &c. But yet notvvithſtanding any intreatie or reaſons alledged about it, we could not by any meanes get a copie thereof eyther there or here. VVhat vve heard was in it, & other circumſtances & dealing about it, I doe omit now to ſpeak of: and vvill proceede to other things about the matter in hand.

p. 70And next of all, it is to be obſerved, that to all the letters and matters aforeſayd written by us to Leyden hereabout, M. A. himſelf ſubſcribed as vvell as vve. So that if it were evill in us, it vvas alſo evill in himſelf. VVhichWhich let him acknovvledge, knovvledge, taking avvay the former reaſons, and ſhewing it by the vvord of God, that vve may doe likevviſe. Or if he can vvarrant his ovvne doing therein, vvhy doth he thus object againſt us that very thing, vvherein himſelf joyned and ſubſcribed vvith us at that tyme? Let him alſo tell us, vvhether therein he denyed the practiſe of that article in the Cōfeſſion (about having the counſel and help of that Church): or vvhether he yeelded unto it by permiſſion, but abſteyned from ſending for them, or giving approbation to their coming, for the reaſons aforeſayd. Let him alſo call to minde, vvhether himſelf (as I remember) did not ſay, or (at leaſt) heard ſome of us ſay, upon former experience had vvith others, that whiles we lived vve would take heed, how we conſented to any other in like ſort to come publikly into the Church, vvhom we knewe aforehand to be in errour, and ſo purpoſed to mainteyne the ſame.

But be it that we ſhould hauehave deſired this, or at leaſt conſented to hauehave it deſired, as is implyed here: yet though vve did it not, the help of that Church was procured and obteyned, as is ſayd here and in the printed copie. So then the thing it ſelf vvas had, by their ovvne ſaying: how ever there wanted our deſire of it or conſenting thereunto: Though yet they ſhould not forget, that vve conſented to the permiſſion of it, and ſhevved reaſons of our reſrayning from doing more in this caſe, as is aforeſayd. Now therefore when their help was procured, and that they were come: how vvere the things then caryed? VVhere (omitting to ſpeak of that vvhichwhich paſſed from them, & to keep to thoſe that concerne our ſelues) they all knowe, that we p. 71reaſoned vvith them publikly about the matter in queſtion: And that vve conſulted & adviſed vvith them about ſome courſe to be taken for procuring and keeping peace betvveen us. And this not onelyonly at that tyme, but afterward alſo both by vvord and vvriting. So then vve both reaſoned vvith them about the poynts in difference, & we uſed their counſel and help hovv to come to a good iſſue thereabout. And thus themſelues vvill not deny, that the thing it ſelf ſpoken of in the Confeſſion, vvas in this ſort obſerved by us, as is aforeſayd. But hovv did they obſerve it themſelues, vvhen they brake away and left us, vvhiles vve vvere vvriting one to another (the other Church and we) concerning the matters propounded and fallen out betvveen us hereabout? Of vvhichwhich I ſhall hauehave occaſion to ſpeak more hereafter: when firſt I hauehave noted a few things further about the former matter, concerning our ſelues, & the Article ſpoken of.

For our ſelues, beſides the other things aforeſayd, vve ſignified alſo, that vve vvould not refuſe to conferre & reaſon vvith the brethren of Leyden at any tyme about the matter in hand, ſo as their comming vvere eyther of them ſelues, or by the requeſt of them here that deſired it, and vvithout our approbation, for the reaſons ſpoken of, &c. And accordingly, vvhen they came hither,Their Elders, with conſent of the reſt. vve performed it, notwithſtanding any thing that had paſſed before about theſe things.

For the Article it ſelf, obſerue the clauſes in it, and the Scriptures cited for confirmation of it. For the clauſes in it, note hovv it is ſayd,Conf. a…t. 38. that every particular Congregation is as a compact and knitt citie in it ſelf, and therefore ſhould uſe all good and lavvfull meanes, that may further their compacting and knitting together in the truth and cōmon fayth: but not any ſuch as may cauſe or at leaſt colour the dividing of them aſunder. Alſo, that the churches ſhould p. 72all walk by one and the ſame rule, and by all meanes convenient, have the counſell and help one of another, in all needfull affaires of the Church, as members of the ſame bodie in the cōmon fayth, under Christ their onelyonly head. If this then be a rule for us, it is ſo likevviſe for all other Churches, that vvhen there falleth out queſtion about an errour among thē, they ſhould deſire the counſel and help of ſuch Churches thereabout, as they knowe to be corrupted vvith the ſame errour, and not purpoſed to leave it, but to defend it, ſuppoſing it to be the truth. And vvhat conveniencie it vvere (not to ſpeak of the lavvfulnes of it) or hovv needfull, to call ſuch as vve knovve to be in errour, that ſo our people might eyther be the more corrupted, or have the more colour for their errour & evill dealing, you may conſider vvith your ſelf. Or if vve had ſent for them, or approved it, might we not hauehave ben acceſſarie to the meanes, by vvhichwhich the truth might hauehave ben hindred, and our people more confirmed in errour? And vvhere then is the vvarrant for ſuch vvalking?

For the Scriptures that are cited for confirmation of the Article aforeſaid, firſt obſerve (about the point of difference betvveen us) hovv the Scriptures of the old Teſtament are alledged aſvvell as of the nevv: and thoſe alſo cō cerning the eſtate of Iſrael, applyed to our tymes and caſes novv. Secondly conſider, vvhether thoſe Scriptures intend or vvill vvarrant a Church, to ſend for ſuch or to deſire their counſel and help, vvhom they knovv to be in errour about the poynts queſtioned and dealt in, and by whō the parties that trouble the church may be more ſtrengthned in their errours and evils thereabout. VVhichWhich if they doe, or if any other doe it (that are not cited here) then ought vve and all to yeeld thereunto. Othervviſe if the help and courſes deſired be not ſuch as are approved in the vvord of God, we might tempt God in attēpting of them: p. 73and therefore muſt be carefull to follovv that onelyonly which hath warrant from thence, whereby the truth may be furthered, the ſafetie and libertie of the Church preſerved, and occaſion cut off from thē that deſire occaſion thereagainſt.

And beſides the things aforeſaid, vvhy did not themſelues alſo deſire to hauehave the counſel and help of the Dutch and French Churches, that vvere here at hand round about us? If they ſay, becauſe they thought they vvere in errour about the matter in queſtion, and ſo might hauehave hindred the truth, and hauehave ben againſt them, and for us: then by it may be perceived vvhat their ovvne judgment is about this particular (being ſimply conſidered in it ſelf) and in this behalf what the waight of this their exception is againſt us. If they aunſvver any other thing, it may accordingly be conſidered of, as it ſhall be found to be. And hitherto concerning the Article aforeſaid, and ſundrie particulars that paſſed betvveen us by this occaſion, not ſpoken of by them.

Now touching the three particulars annexed to the ninth objection in the printed copie: the firſt is, that before their parting, they offered, that notwithstanding our differences of judgment, they would continew together, if our former practiſe might be reteyned: VVhichWhich is as if they ſhould ſay, they vvould hauehave continued vvith us, if vve vvould hauehave continewed in errour and evil (ſo found and acknovvledged by us): ſuffring the ordinance of God (touching the Elderſhip) to be troden under foot; the Elders to be deſpiſed & abuſed by the people; and the vvhole Church to be continually ſubject to contentions and ſcandals, &c. Beſides, vvhy doe they not alſo mention, vvhat vve offered to thē? vvhichwhich ſeeing they ſpeak not of, vve will: namely, that before their parting vve offred to beare vvith them in their difference of judgment, if they vvould be content to walke peaceably vvith the Church in that their difference: but p. 74this vvas refuſed.

The next particular they ſpeak of, is, that then they deſired a peaceable parting; & to be two diſtinct Congregations, each practiſing as they were perſwaded, yet nouriſhing love & unitie. A peaceable parting we graunt they deſired in vvord, but in deed ſtayed not vvith us, but departed vvhiles vve vvere conſidering and adviſing vvhether it could lavvfully be effected or not. And touching that particular of being two diſtinct Congregations of us in this citie &c. we ſhewed them divers reaſons, vvhy vve could not in this caſe agree thereunto. And of thoſe reaſons vve had ſpeach vvith thē here, and vvrote to the Church of Leyden: ſignifying vvithall, that if vve could otherwiſe better diſcerne vvhat vvere according to the vvill of God herein, vve ſhould (God vvilling) ſo receiue and vvalk. VVhichWhich letter (vvith the reaſons therein conteyned) is hereafter noted dovvne. Yet notvvithſtanding they ſtayed not, till we had an anſwer thereof from Leyden, but ſoone after departed from us. Beſides that other meanes alſo vvas uſed (by writing) vvhichwhich might at leaſt hauehave perſwaded them to ſtay and doe othervviſe then they did. Of vvhichwhich I ſhall alſo ſpeak more hereafter.

The third particular is, about their procuring the help of the Engliſh Church at Leyden, without our conſent (of vvhichwhich I hauehave ſpoken here before) & about a waie of peace propounded by us, & agreed unto by the Church of Leyden & our ſelues, and yet afterward reverſed by us, &c. Touching vvhichwhich they doe here as before, omit divers things needful to be knowē and remembred: As firſt, vvhat the thing it ſelf is that was propounded by us, namely, that for ſuch as could not be content with proteſtation peaceably to walke with eyther Church (at Leyden or here) it ſhould be free for them to goe from the one Church and Pastor to the other: ſo as there were no other cauſe lying against them. This vvas in deed propounded by my p. 75ſelf: having much thought and conſidered (vvhat I could) of any lavvfull meanes, by vvhichwhich we might come to ſome good end and agreement, after our ſo long and lamentable troubles and contentions, as vve had ben exerciſed withall. VVhichWhich when I had propounded, they of Leyden anſwered, that they were glad to hear of ſuch a motion, litle thinking that we had ben ſo inclyning to peace and agreement: This to my remē brance was the effect of the things that paſſed here about.which if they had thought, they ſhould hauehave caryed themſelues otherwiſe towards us, then they had done. And for the thing it ſelf, that they would conſider of it with their Church; and if eyther they or we mynded otherwiſe by the word of God, that we ſhould ſignify it. VVhichWhich caution being thus ſpoken of by them, my ſelf then ſaid (as I remember) that I had thought ſo to hauehave ſpoken alſo concerning it, but had forgottē (when I ſpake) to mention it. And ſo then it vvas minded of us both to be conſidered of and proſequuted vvith this condition and limitation, of being found lawfull by the word of God. And let this for hereafter be ſtill remembred, becauſe it vvill cleare all the queſtion about this matter.

Secondly, at the firſt treating of this matter between us, the Officers of the Church of Leyden (then preſent) did ſo conceiue it, as that our people which would not walk with this Church, as is aforeſaid, ſhould goe and remayne vvith them at Leyden. VVhichWhich ſome of them here obſerving & excepting againſt it, in reſpect of their meanes of living had here, &c. they were anſwered by them of Leyden, that they muſt be cōtented to ſuffer or beare the croſſe of Chriſt vvith them, or to ſuch effect. Then alſo concerning the courſe aforeſaid, there vvas noted a double conſideration about it: The one, about the doing of it ſo,The later is the poynt which they doe ſo much urge. as to live and remayne with the other Church whither they ſhould goe: The other, about the doing of it ſo, as that having once gone and joyned thewſelues to the other Church, they might then returne agayne to the towne where they lived before, and there live apart p. 76from the Church, whereof they had formerly ben. And hereupon, having ſpeach about theſe tvvo courſes: the firſt vvas ſooner conceired of and generally liked of all; the latter vvas leſſe conceived of and more called in queſtion (as aftervvard did appeare) though for myne ovvn part I did my ſelf ſo minde and like of it at that time. And vvhen ſome among us propounded, that ſuch as vvent from us to Leyden and joyned to that Church, ſhould not be diſmiſſed back by them againe, to live apart from us in this tovvne: both my ſelf and the Elders of the other Church (to my remembrance) anſwered, that this matter vvould concerne that Church to which they ſhould joyne to look unto, and ſo vvas to be left unto them. But afterward, conſidering yet further of the lavvfulnes of ſuch diſmiſſion thither, & hither agayne: I ſhewed my minde herein to be altered, & divers reaſons thereabout. Of vvhichwhich I ſhall ſpeak hereafter, vvhen I come to that matter.

Thirdly, vvhen the matters aforeſaid, vvhichwhich vve had propounded, vvere communicated vvith the Church at Leyden, and their Elders returned hither againe, they ſignifyed that theſe things came ſodainly upō their Church, yet for the preſent (as they could in that tyme cōſider thereof) they liked vvell of it, or to ſuch effect. So now againe at this tyme we had more ſpeach together thereabout. The former of the tvvo courſes (as I ſaid before) vvas generally vvell approved, and conſented unto. The latter vvas more doubted of and more queſtion made about it; & in the end more & more diſliked by divers, the more that it was perceived to be the brethrens purpoſe ſo to doe. And this moſt appeared the next morning, when the likelyhood of agreement that vvas the night before, was then ſo changed, upō further reaſoning and conſideration thereof, as we could not accord therabout. And ſo the Officers of the other Church (ſignifying that they had great occaſion to returne p. 77home, and could then no longer ſtay, departed, and ſaid, it vvould be heavie to their Church to heare that the things vvere come to no better iſſue between us. Yet vvhen they were gone, we ſtill continued ſpeach among our ſelues about theſe things, being ſorie that they ſtood thus, and that no better tidings ſhould be caried to the other Church. And then upon ſome ſpeach ſo had together (as vve could in that ſhort time) we came to this iſſue, that we thought it beſt to agree upon the matter aforeſaid in this ſort, that whatſoever blame ſhould follovve hereupon (if our people vvere by them of Leyden diſmiſſed to liue here apart from us in this citie) it ſhould lye upon them, and vve be free of it. And ſo thereupon we preſently ſent three vvith this meſſage after the brethren of Leyden (if they could overtake them in tyme) to ſignifie thus much unto them, that they might alſo ſignifie it unto their Church. And this (I thinke) is the agreement ſpoken of. VVhichWhich vvhen it vvas in this manner agreed upon, ſome of the brethren preſent (there being then but a ſevv at that tyme) came to the Elders, ſhewing hovv they thought it needfull that this ſhould be ſpoken of the Lords day after: & others ſay to this day, they never conſented unto it: and ſome, that they ſaid then, it vvas unlavvfull. And theſe men thē ſelues, it may be, vvould be loth to ſtand to their ovvn poſitions about it, that in a controverſie the greater part ſhould be the Church (whether the Elders be vvith them or againſt them) and that the matters of ſinne and queſtion touching the brethren ſhould be heard and ended on the Lords day. But I vvill proceede on to other matters that follovved aftervvard about theſe things.

Fourthly, vvhiles things ſtood thus mōg us, we had the Lords day following ſpeach hereabout againe: at vvhichwhich tyme there vvas a nevv motion made for an other courſe to be taken, by which we might keep together, rather then p. 78to part aſunder according to the other courſe ſpoken of, VVhichWhich being then propounded, and not agreed upon, vvas left to further conſideration. And ſo that week vvee wrote to the Church of Leyden thereabout.

By vvhichwhich occaſion, after the aforeſaid treating of theſe things had by vvord of mouth, there paſſed alſo ſome letters betvveen us concerning them. VVhichWhich although in divers reſpects vve could be willing to keep among our ſelues: yet conſidering in vvhat ſort and vvith what ſcandal the brethren aforeſaid hauehave ſince divided themſelues from us, and that the reproch of it is ſpread farre and neare not onelyonly by others, but even by their ovvne letters and vvritings thereabout, to the great diſhonour of God, and hindrance of the truth: and that the knowledge of theſe things vvill be a good meanes for all both to ſettle their owne judgment better, and to deale with them or others concerning theſe matters, as there ſhal be occaſion: we have therefore thought it not amiſſe to note down here the cō tents of the letters aforeſaid that paſſed betvveene us hereabout, before the others departing from us. VVhichWhich we may alſo the better doe, becauſe they are but few and ſhort. Firſt therefore, when we had afterward had further ſpeach among our ſelues, as is aforeſaid, and had not yet heard frō the Church at Leyden agayne vvhat they thought of the matter and meſſage aforeſaid, or vvhether they conſented unto it or not: we vvrote unto them as follovveth.

Beloved, touching the things that hauehave now lately ben ſpoken off between the two Churches, yours and ours, about the diſmiſſion of ſuch on cyther part as are not content with proteſtation peaceably to walk in their difference of judgment, we have occaſion to entreat the continuance of your conſideration yet further thereabout: 1. becauſe your ſelves ſignified it came ſodainly upon your Church: and if eyther you or we mynded otherwiſe by the word of God, we ſhould after ſignify it: Wherefore we expect p. 79to heare whether you continew like mynded as heretofore. 2. becauſe there is with us a new motion of our walking together thus, by bearing one with another, ſo as for peace to permit of a double practiſe among us, that thoſe that are mynded eyther way, ſhould keep a like courſe together, as we would doe if we were aſunder, according as the perſons ſhall be that hauehave the cauſes. Which way, if it may be found warrantable by the word of God, and peaceable unto and among our ſelues, we hope all that love peace in holynes will accord. Theſe things as we are to conſider of, ſo pray we you to doe the like with us and for us, that we may doe that which is moſt to Gods glorie and our mutuall comfort. Thus &c. Amſterdam Novemb. 5. old style. 1610.

And note here, how we both conſidered further of theſe things, and ſtill limited our conſultation and purpoſe with this caution, if the things propounded were found warrantable by the word of God. VVhichWhich is to be obſerved for the waight of it againſt theſe perſons, who hauehave taken ſuch a courſe, together vvith their opinions, as can never be vvarranted by the vvord of God. Next follovveth the letter and anſvver, which then vve received from the Church of Leyden agayne: vvhichwhich vvas thus:

Touching the agreement (Brethren) between the Churches for our mutuall peace, and the relief of the conſciences of our brethren, we did and doe repute the ſame as full and abſolute on both ſides, except eyther ſome better courſe can be thought on, or this manifeſted to be evill, and that then it be reverſed with the mutuall conſent of both Churches. And for this laſt motion about a double practiſe, as we are glad of the great and godly deſire to continew together, in it manifested, ſo doe we not ſee, how it can ſtand eyther with our peace, or it ſelf: but that it will not onelyonly nouriſh, but even neceſſarily beget endles contentions, whē men diverſly mynded ſhall have buſines in the Church. If therefore it would pleaſe the Lord ſo far to enlarge your hearts on both ſides (brethren) as that this middle waie be held, namely, that p. 80the matter of offence, might firſt be brought for order, preparatation, and prevention of unneceſſarie trouble, unto the Elders as the Church governours, (though it is like we for our parts ſhall not ſo practiſe in this particular) and after, if things be not there ended, to the Church of Elders and brethren, there to be judged on ſome ordinarte knowen day ordinarily, the admonition being carryed according to the alteration practiſed and agreed upon by all parts, till it ſhall pleaſe the God of wiſdome, and Father of lights, by the further conſideratiō & diſcuſſing of things, eyther in word or writing, to manifest otherwiſe for our joynt accord, it would ſurely make much to the glorie of God, & the ſtopping of their mouthes which are ſo wide opened upon us in reſpect of our dayly diſsipations, and ſhould be to us matter of great rejoycing, whoſe ſoules doe long after peace, & abhorre the contrarie: and that thus walking in peace and holynes, we might all beg at Gods hands the healing and pardon of all our infirmities, & ſo be readie to heale and forgive the infirmities one of another in love. And with this prayer unto God for you, and for our ſelues, we reſalute you in the Lord Ieſus, Leyden November 14. 1610.

This vvas their letter. VVherin obſerue theſe things about the matters that paſſed betvveen us. Firſt, that here is the anſvver vvhichwhich they gaue us about the agreement and meſſage aforeſaid, as alſo to the letters which aftervvard we ſent unto them. Secondly, that touching the agreement they limit their conſent unto it & their account of it with a double exceptiō: For though they ſay they repute the agreement to be full and abſolute on both ſides, yet they ſpeak it with limitation and exception: as in deed vvas good and needfull to doe, both in reſpect of the thing it ſelf, and ſeeing at the firſt propounding of the matter, it was ſo mynded by them and us to be conſidered of with limitation, of being found lawfull by the word of God. Thirdly, that the exceptions vvhichwhich here they made, vvere theſe, except eyther ſome p. 81better courſe could be thought on, or this manifeſted to be evill. So then by this it is evident, that if eyther a better courſe could be ſhevved, or this manifeſted to be evill, they did not yeeld or repute the agreement to be full and abſolute.

Novv touching the ſhewing of a better courſe, it appeareth by both of theſe letters, theirs and ours, that both of us vvere thinking of it, & therefore propounded other courſes (each to other) to be conſidered. To vvhichwhich end may be obſerved here, their propounding of another waie unto us for peace & agreement, vvith divers reaſons to perſwade thereunto. VVhichWhich had ben altogether in vayne, for them to propound or us to think of, if the other had ben abſolute vvithout exception, and irrevocable vvithout alteration, though it vvere found never ſo evill or unlavvfull.

And for the manifeſting of it to be evill, the more vve thought of it, the worſe we found it to be: and mynded divers reaſons againſt it: vvhichwhich firſt vve ſignified here to the brethren themſelues, and had ſome reaſoning vvith them thereof, but could not agree thereabout: and then we vvrote of them alſo to the Church at Leyden, as by the next letter here follovving will appeare. And we need not doubt, but if the thing which they purpoſed here, had gone forvvard vvith our conſent, it would aftervvard hauehave ben much abuſed againſt us by others, if not alſo by thēſelues: ſpecially as it appeared ſtill more & more to be in deed intended by them: the thing being ſuch, as although it had never ben thought or ſpoken of among us, yet it vvould (in a matter of this waight) hauehave ben found a great overſight. But it being ſpoken of, and manifeſted, that they vvould but goe to the other Church to joyne unto them there, & then preſently returne hither agayne to remayne and liue here in the ſame tovvne, apart from us, of vvhom they vvere: vvhat vvould this hauehave proved in deed, but ſcandal and colluſion, and hauehave ben turned upon us vvith p. 82the more reproch, becauſe vve conſented unto it?

As for that other clauſe in their letter, where they write that the agreement ſhould be reverſed with the mutuall conſent of both Churches: note that this vvas their propounding thereof unto us, vvhichwhich vve vvere to conſider of, vvhether vve vvould aſſent unto it or not. And that in all ſuch caſes, wherein it may fall out that eyther ſinne may be cōmitted, or the truth hindred, or the libertie of the Church impeached, it behoveth all carefully to take heed vvhat they conſent and yeeld unto: yea that if any conditions or agreements are made, vvhichwhich can not vvithout ſinne be performed, it is better to breake then to keep them.

Laſtly obſerue here, hovv the courſe about dealing in matters propounded in this letter, and not yeelded unto by the others,Ex…ept ſome of them. ſhevveth playne ynough, hovv greatly theſe mē oppugned the ordinance of God touching the Elders hearing and judging of cauſes and perſons, and hovv highly they lift up the people therein: ſpecially vvhen the things noted before about this queſtion, are joyned and compared herevvith. Novv it follovveth, that vve ſet dovvne our next letter ſent unto the other Church about the matter aforeſaid: vvhichwhich alſo vvas the laſt that paſſed betvveen us, afore the others parting from us. And it vvas thus:

Your letter (brethren) we received and read publikly. Corcerning which, we hauehave occaſion to ſignify ſome things unto you thereabout. And first touching the agreement treated of between us, that for ſuch of us as will not come thither to remayne with you, but purpoſe ſtill to liue here, in this citie, apart from us: albeit there be ſome that could be content notwithstanding ſo to diſmiſſe them, yet there are others of us, that having more conſidered of it, thinke it not lawfull to hauehave any hand in conſenting thereunto, and meane therefore to reverſe our former agreement unto it, beſides that divers of us ſay, they never conſented hereunto. And further, ſome of us alſo beginne to thinke that it will p. 83be found unlawfull to keep ſpirituall cōmunion with them in ſuch eſtate, how ever we may ſtill reteyne with them civill ſocietie.

The reaſons mynded, why not ſo to diſmiſſe them, nor to hauehave ſpirituall fellowſhip with thē in ſuch eſtate & walking, are theſe:

1. Becauſe we can not finde warrant for it in the word of God.

2. Becauſe they refuſe diſobey and ſpeak evill of the truth and waie of God.

3. Becauſe they refuſe to continew and keep cōmunion with us, though they may be ſuffered to walke with us in peace with proteſtation in their difference of judgment.

4. Becauſe ſome of them profeſſe they will not deale in cauſes (as may fall out between us) by way of proteſtation, neyther when they are with us, nor when they are from us.

5. Becauſe they goe not frō one Church and Paſtour to another, ſo to live and remayne: but purpoſe (when they hauehave come & joyned unto you) then preſently to returne, & to live here in this towne apart from us.

6. Becauſe by ſuch walking of theirs, great reproach will come upon us all, with much diſhonour to God, and hinderance to the truth, what in them lyeth.

7. Lastly, becauſe we thinke there ſhould alway be ſomewhat in ſuch caſes uſed, as whereby the Lord may worke upon their conſciences, to conſider their eſtate, and to repent and yeeld to the truth and waie of God which they hauehave hitherto refuſed and oppugned, &c.

Thus we thought to acquaint you with theſe things, and the reaſons thereabout. Which yet are ſo mynded of us, as if eyther among our ſelues or by others we ſhall hereafter better diſcerne what is according to the will of God herein, we ſhall (Godwilling) be ready ſo to receiue and walke.

As touching the the double practiſe, miſliked by you, although in deed it may ſeeme ſomewhat ſtraunge and difficult, yet for the preſent ſome of us could like better of it, then of a parting: but the brethren differing from us will not admit of it. Neyther will they yeeld to that middle courſe propounded in your letter. Yet hauehave we left it, with the former things, to their further conſideration. And how ſoever it pleaſeth the Lord to diſpoſe of us, our p. 84trust is that he will worke all in the end to the furtherance of his truth, and peace of his Church in Ieſus Chriſt. To whoſe gracious protection and guydance we commend you, &c. Amſterdam. Novemb. 19.1610.

This letter being here publikly read, vvas then ſent to the Church at Leyden. VVhereabout let theſe things alſo be obſerved here. Firſt, that vve reverſed not our agreement concerning ſuch, as vvould goe and liue vvith the Church at Leyden: but onelyonly about ſuch as vvould not remayne and liue there, but purpoſed to returne, & liue here apart from us in this citie.

Secondly, that for this alſo we ſhewed divers reaſons moving us ſo to doe: and that, both here by vvord of mouth, and by vvriting to Leyden, afore they vvent avvay from us.

Thirdly, that vvhereas tvvo courſes vvere propounded for the keeping of us together, the one by us here, the other by the Church at Leyden, they vvould not admit of eyther of them: neyther remayned vvith us, till vve had from Leyden an anſvver of this letter, and of the reaſons conteyned therein: but vvere ſo ſet upon parting from us, as before vve heard from them, they divided them ſelues from us; and ſo hauehave continued to this day. Yea notvvithſtanding that before this their parting, and beſides all the other meanes formerly uſed, vve offred alſo to try out in vvriting the matter betvveen us, touching our difference about the Churches government, and underſtanding of Mat. 18.17. vvhichwhich likevviſe they refuſed. VVhereof I ſhall ſpeak more particularly hereafter.

Fourthly, that vvhen they left us, they vvent not to Leyden, there to joyne them ſelues to that Church, according to the agreement before ſpoken of: but vvent apart from us here, forſaking the fellovvſhip vvhichwhich they had with us, and met together in another place of this tovvne. VVhichWhich p. 85is much to be obſerved, not onelyonly for the thing it ſelf, but becauſe that thus them ſelues in their going away followed not the agreement betvveene the other Church and us, vvhereof they ſpeak. And ſo that vvhichwhich they did, vvas both vvithout our agreement, and the Churches of Leyden, for ought vve knovve. Neyther hauehave they here ſet dovvne the cauſe that moved them, not to goe to Leyden firſt and joyne there (according to the former agreement) afore they had taken this courſe of meeting apart from us here. If they vvould hauehave this taken for a declaration of that vvhichwhich they intended indeed, that if they had gone to Leyden, and joyned there, it ſhould hauehave ben, but for the ſatiſfying of our mindes, vvhom they ſavve to be troubled about the diſmiſſion of them; and that in deed they meant not to liue and remayne with that Church and Paſtor there, but vvhen they had ſo done, then to come & liue apart from us, as novv they doe: vve and others may accordingly eſteeme thereof, and take it as a further confirmation of the reaſons alledged for the reverſing of our conſent to the agreement aforeſaid.

There is alſo a clauſe inſerted by them in their third particular novv treated of, vvhere they ſay, that in the treatie of the Agreement it was teſtifyed by the Elders of the Church of Leyden, that unleſſe it were to the apparant undoing of thē, & of their families, they ſhould not be diſmiſſed agayne to dwell here: which whether it did any way moue them in this behalf to doe as they did, themſelues know beſt. My ſelf cannot ſay, that it did. But this is ſure, that ſome hauehave gone from this Church & citie to liue in the other, in reſpect of their outward eſtate, and in hope of bettering of it: though none of them did ſo, upon the former agreement, and in reſpect thereof, that I can remember.

And (to note it here by this occaſion) vvell may it be that this ſpeach of the Elders of that Church vvas a p. 86meanes to perſvvade us much to the agreement aforeſaid: and that vvhen it appeared, hovv them ſelues vvere purpoſed not to liue vvith the other Church & Paſtor there, but to returne and liue apart from us here, that then vve did the more thinke of it, vvhether it vvere lavvfull for us to conſent thereunto: and thereuppon ſhewed the reaſons aforeſayd for the reverſing of our former agreement unto it. VVhichWhich reaſons alſo together vvith their owne purpoſe of living here apart from us; they ſhould hauehave done vvell to hauehave ſpoken of in their vvriting, and not to hauehave ſayd onelyonly, that although in the treatie of the agreement it was teſtified by the Elders of that Church, that unleſſe it were to the apparant undoing of them, and of their families, they ſhould not be diſmiſsed agayne to dwell here: yet becauſe they would not abſolutely promiſe to leaue this citie, we would not stand to the agreement which our ſelues had made. For they knovve both their owne purpoſe aforeſaid, and that vve ſhewed divers reaſons, vvhy vve thought it not lavvfull for us to continevv, but to reverſe, our conſent to the diſmiſſion of ſuch as would not remayne vvith the other Church, but purpoſed ſtill to liue here in this citie apart from us.

And in deed in ſuch caſes, if things ſhould concerne our ſelues, even vvith certaine loſſe and hurt to us and our families, yet ſhould vve not make our outvvard eſtate the ground or rule of our religion or religious actions, but vve ſhould alvvay firſt look and conſider vvhat is lavvfull for us by the word of God to conſent unto in others, or to practiſe our ſelues: and then in fayth to vvalk before the Lord, being upright, and committing our vvay unto him, vvho vvill bring it to paſſe. Pſal. 37.3, 4, 5. with Gen. 12.1. and 17.1. Note alſo here, how in the two laſt particulars of the printed copie, they hauehave this clauſe thriſe, that we would not agree to ſtand to the agreement, unles they left this citie; and hauehave not once any vvhere, unleſse they went from one p. 87Church and Pastour to another: the verie naming vvhereof is ſuch, as caryeth vvaight of reaſon vvith it againſt them, and for us.

Moreover, concerning the poynt and Article ſpoken of, about having the counſel and help of other Churches, note alſo that hovvever they ſpeak much of it, yet in deed they did not follow it them ſelues; in that whiles the other Church and vve vvere treating & vvriting about the matters aforeſayd, they ſtayed not till vve had done, to ſee vvhat would be the end of our conſultation, as it ſhould pleaſe the Lord to diſpoſe: but vvhen they knevve vve had vvritten unto Leyden, and vvhereabout, and that yet vve had received no anſvver from them agayne, they brake away from us; and tooke alſo another courſe then that which was agreed upō, as is aforeſaid. And ſo themſelues herein obſerved not that in deed, which they ſpeake in vvord, about having the counſel & help one of another, in all needfull affaires of the Church, &c.

And be it that eyther vve or the of Leyden (from whō vve heard not in this tyme) ſhould be vvanting or fayling in any thing hereabout: (as vvho in ſuch difficulties and troubles are not ſubject to be?) Yet what will they alledge for vvarrant of their ſeparation from us vvhichwhich they hauehave made? Themſelues knovve that everie vvant or fayling in Churches or actions, vvill not beare out ſuch diviſions. Good vvarrant it had need be that ſhould uphold ſuch disbounding and ſeparating of themſelues, as they hauehave runne into.

If they alledge the matters that are mentioned in the foreſayd letters vvhichwhich they ſent into England, and in the other vvriting of theirs, vvhichwhich is printed: for them you ſee the aunſvver novv given thereunto: and let them remember alſo, that hovvſoeuer they ſpeake of other matters, yet they made their diviſion onelyonly for the queſtion, p. 88about Government and the underſtanding of Mat. 18.17. vvhereabout we differed and could not agree. And if then in the matter it ſelf, for vvhichwhich they left communion with us, they be found thēſelues to be in notable errour: what vvarrant may it be that they can alledge herein, which will not returne upon their owne heads in the end, as that Scripture doth vvhichwhich they alledge for and at their dividing of themſelues from us? Rom. 16, 17.

As for the long diſputing of theſe matters, vvhereof they ſpeak, that alſo maketh the more againſt them, becauſe that although ſuch care and continuall paynes vvas taken for them and vvith them, yet it prevayled nothing at all with them neyther. And vvhere they ſay, no waie of peace could by us be found to continew together in the truth & holynes, they ſhould turne their eyes upon themſelues, upon their errours, and upon their ſtubberne contentious and unruly vvalking: beſides that they ſtayed not to ſee vvhat iſſue it vvould pleaſe God to bring of the matters in hand betvveē the other Church and us: and refuſed alſo to trie if by writing among our ſelues, vve could hauehave come to better accord in our differences, then vve could by ſpeach and word of mouth. VVhichWhich although it be a meanes ſeldome uſed vvhen parties are preſent together, and carefully to be regarded vvhen and hovv it is ſo uſed: yet I ſuppoſe novv that they hauehave better bethought themſelues, they vvill acknovvledge it had ben better to hauehave admitted of any lavvfull meanes they could, rather then to hauehave divided themſelues as they did, and to hauehave brought ſo great reproach & many evils upon themſelues and others as they hauehave done, Or if they vvill not ſo acknovvledge thēſelues, yet I doubt not but others vvill for them.

For that vvhichwhich they ſpeak of the lamentable diſſipation of the Church and members beginning to growe, if they had named any particulars thereabout, they might accordingly p. 89hauehave ben ſpoken of. VVhichWhich ſeeing they hauehave not done, I vvill leaue to the conſideration of themſelues & others, whether their dealing & departing frō us might not onelyonly hauehave begunne, but even hauehave cauſed to growe and goe forward, a moſt lamentable diſſipation of this Church, & the members thereof, had not God diſappointed them, and in merciemercy ſuſteyned and kept us together, vvhen they made their diviſion & cōmitted ſo great offence in this Church:Rom. 16.17.Rom 16:17 contrarie to the doctrine, vvhichwhich vve hauehave learned of the Prophets and Apoſtles; vvhichwhich vve alſo ſhevved unto thē many times, afore they parted from us; and vvhichwhich (novv that they hauehave left us) muſt ende all the queſtion and controverſie that is betvveen us.

And here it is to be remembred, that alvvayes and in all our vvritings and occaſions vve ſtill profeſſe to hauehave the vvord of God alone for the light of our feet and direction of our vvayes, in all things. VVhichWhich vve ſhould therefore be the more carefull to follovv, as it pleaſeth God of his goodnes to manifeſt his vvill unto us more & more. And likevviſe about theſe matters, and in the laſt letter aforeſayd, vve limited our dealing and the reaſons alledged, with the ſame caution ſtill, of follovving that which we ſhould among our ſelues or by others best diſcerne to be according to the wil of God therein: VVhichWhich though it had not ben expreſſed, ſhould alvvay be underſtood. But being purpoſely and ſo often mentioned from time to time, about theſe things, it ſhould the more be remembred & regarded of us all: that by it vve may examine & determine all the matters betweē us. For neyther may vve reteyne any thing in the Church, nor yeeld to any agreement vvith others, that is not warrantable by the vvord of God: neyther ſhould they urge the continuance of any thing among us, nor follow themſelues any courſe in their practiſe, that cannot by it be approved: but vve ſhould ſtill grovve in knovvledge & obedience p. 90of the vvill of God, leaving that vvhichwhich is evill, and following that vvhichwhich is good, in all things.

Moſes, when he was informed by Iethro that the courſe of government, vvhichwhich he took in judging the people and hearing their cauſes ſo as he did, vvas not good, but vvearyſome both to him and the people, and had another vvay ſhewed unto him, to be received vvith the approbation of God: he vvillingly hearkened unto it, and chaunged his former courſe, the Lord alſo approving the ſame. Exod. 18.13-26. VVhen David in a godly deſire vvas carefull to bring the Arke of God from Kirja…h-jearim to Ieruſalem, he put it in a nevve cart, and beganne to carry it vvith ſinging and playing on inſtruments and great ſolemnity: thinking that he had done vvell and right therein: but the Lord made a breach upon them by the death of Vzza. VVhereupon David ſtayed the further removing of it a vvhile: and perceiving that it was, becauſe they did it not in the due order thereof, he then aftervvard took another courſe, appoynting the Levites to beare it, whom the Lord had choſen to cary the Arke of the Lord, and miniſter unto him. 1 Chron. 13. and 15.2-13. &c.

Novv vvhat breaches, contentions, and continuall troubles, had ben at that time in this Church among us, they are not ignorant of: beſides the exceeding great and heavie one, which about the ſame time befell that other Congregation of our countrymen here, who about the queſtiō of the Churches government, pleaded alſo againſt the Elderſhip, for their popular courſe, vvith ſome of the verie ſame arguments, and other like, as theſe hauehave done; and runne into ſundrie Anabaptiſticall opinions and courſes, not unknovven unto them: And the brethren of Leyden in their letter here before make mention of our dayly diſſipations vvhichwhich then vve had. VVhichWhich things I note here by this occaſion, that it may the better appeare, both what p. 91great cauſe vve had novv to look hereunto, and that theſe things alſo befell us, vvhiles vve held that courſe of governement pleaded for by theſe men, and afore they made this ſchiſmaticall departing from us, as novv they did, becauſe vve vvould not ſtill continue and hold on the ſame courſe, as before.

Beſides theſe examples of Moſes and David, I could alſo alledge the Apoſtles, vvho upon experience of evils that came by having younger vvidovves in the ſervice of the Church, took aftervvard another courſe, and appoynted that none ſhould be taken into that number under threeſcore yeere old, &c. 1 Tim. 5, 9-15. And for chaunging of things purpoſed and determined, vvhen there is juſt cauſe, vve hauehave likevviſe the example of David agayne, vvho vvhen he had purpoſed and ſolemnely vovved the death of Nabal and all his familie, yet afterward upon the perſvvaſion and reaſons uſed by Abigail, changed his purpoſe, and bleſſed her, and the Lord, for her counſel & perſvvaſion given unto him: 1 Sam. 25.21-35. And of the Prophet Nathan, vvho having both conſented to Davids purpoſe of buylding an houſe to the Lord, and encouraged him thereunto, yet vvhen as the ſame night the Lord ſhewed him, that he did not require it of David, neyther vvould hauehave him to doe it: he thereupon vvent and ſhevved it to David; vvho alſo reſted therein, with praiſe and thanks unto God. 1 Chron. 17. chap.

And theſe things are vvritten for our learning, vvhichwhich I doe the rather note here, conſidering the perſons & matters ſpoken of: The perſons being Moſes, David, Nathan, Paul: ſome Prophets, ſome Apoſtles: The matters being touching the government of the people, the vvorſhip of God, the ſervice of the Church, and helping one of another, &c. Yet ſuch perſons in ſuch matters altered their courſes and purpoſes, and vvere readie and vvilling ſo to p. 92doe, when eyther by the counſel of others, or by their own experience, or by the vvord or work of God, they perceived any errour to be committed, or ſome other evil to enſue, in the courſes taken or purpoſes intended by them. They knevve and vvere carefull as (all ſhould) that in all things, vvhether concerning the vvorſhip of God, or governement of the Church, or other duties and actions, that onelyonly ſhould be received and reteyned, vvhichwhich is approved of God: and whatſoever is evill or unvvarrantable by his vvord (though formerly had and obſerved) that it ſhould be corrected and amended.

According to vvhichwhich rule, and examples of the godly in former times, if theſe men vvould novv (vvithout prejudice) examine their opinions and courſes aforeſaid, they ſhould finde it high time for them to make a ſtand, to obſerve the vvork of God upon them, & to giuegive thēſelues no reſt till they hauehave forſaken their errours & redreſſed their crooked waies: be they othervviſe never ſo pleaſing unto thē or auncient with thē. So ſhould they in deed keep the auncient fayth, and vvalk in the old and good vvay preſcribed of God. Let them therefore hearken to the inſtruction and counſel given unto them: Let the vvaie of God be in their heart, and his feare before their eyes: Let them thinke on their owne vvaies, and turne their feet unto his teſtimonies: Let them make haſt, and not delay to keepe his cōmmandements. Pſal. 119.59.60.

And to this end, let them about the things ſpoken of, conſider well, of theſe two poynts:

1. of the queſtions themſelues that hauehave ben and are betvveen us; and therein eſpecially of thoſe differences vvhereabout they ſevered themſelues from us;

2. of the charge layd upon the Paſtors and Elders over the flock committed unto them by the Lord; and of the dutie required of the people agayne tovvards the Governours, vvhom the Lord ſets over them p. 93in his ſtead.

Of the firſt I hauehave treated here, and in another treatiſe before, written about the expoſition of Mat. 18.17. For the latter, ſee theſe & the like Scriptures, throughout the book of God; Exod. 20, 12. 2 Chron. 26.16-21. Act. 20, 17, 28. Rom. 12, 3-8. 1 Cor. 12, 28. Epheſ. 4, 11-16. Col. 4, 17. 1 Theſ. 5, 12, 13. 1 Tim. 5, 17-21. and 6, 13.14. Tit. 2, 15. Iam. 5, 14. 1 Pet. 5, 1-4. Rev. 2, & 3. Heb. 13, 17.

And novv to conclude, beſides all the former things, we entreated them alſo that ſeing the ſame matter vvas then in hand both betvveene Mr. Amſworth and Mr. Bernard, and betvveene Mr. Robinſon, and Mr. Bernard, that therefore they vvould ſtay, to ſee vvhat this vvay might come to paſſe for the more clearing of the poynts in difference betvveen us, and our better accord thereabout: But they vvould not be perſwaded ſo to doe. And then finally, after a yeeres diſpute publikly had by vvord of mouth,Once a vveek cō monly. & all the other meanes uſed among us, I offered in the end (as I ſaid before) to try out the matter in vvriting betvveen us, and gaue forth unto them the obſervations vvhichwhich then I had collected about Mat. 18.17. Which ſince are printed.VVhichWhich they both heard publikely read, and had them to copy out, afore they went avvay from us: yet vvould they not yeeld hereunto: But vvhen vve had appoynted another day in the vveeke about theſe things, then had they ſome ſpeach of divers particulars in the foreſaid vvriting, vvhereabout alſo vve ſpake agayne: and ſo ſome ſpeach paſſed between us thereabout: but to giuegive anſvver unto it in vvriting they vvould not be perſwaded. Neyther vvould they continevve any longer with the Church: but vvith great ſinne and ſcandal divided themſelues from us (vvhichwhich they profeſſed that day,December 15. and 16. 1610. & practiſed the next, and ſo hauehave continued ever ſince) alledging the ſaying of the Apoſtle to the Romans, Rom. 16, 17: VVhichWhich is ſo direct againſt themſelues, and for us, as I p. 94vvill novv alledge no other Scripture at all, againſt the diviſion and ſcandals cauſed by them, but leaue them even by this to be judged of their ovvne mouth. VVhichWhich they ſhall doe vvell to laye to heart, & to ponder ſeriouſly with themſelues; ſeeing that by the very Scripture vvhichwhich thē ſelues alledged, all are bound to marke them, and avoyde them, as having made diviſion and offences, contrarie to the doctrine vvhichwhich we hauehave learned of the Prophets and Apoſtles of the Lord. Rom. 16, 17.

Thus hauehave I more largely then I thought, vvritten hereabout: and doe novv leaue it to your vviſe and godly conſideration, as it ſhall pleaſe the Lord by his vvord and ſpirit to direct and perſvvade you therein. Farevvell in the Lord; vvho remembreth his people in their baſe and diſtreſſed eſtate, and giveth an iſſue vvith every tentation; vvho alſo vvill deliver us from everie evill vvorke, & preſerue us to his heavenly kingdome, by Chriſt our Redeemer: to vvhom be glorie for ever and ever. Amen. His grace be with you, and his ſtrong conſolation in your ſpirit for ever. Amen.

Yours Francis Iohnſon.

THus (good Reader) I hauehave ſet downe M. Iohnſons Anſwer to the objections conteyned in M. A. letter, and the printed copie, about the diviſion aforeſayd. Now I will here alſo annexe a note that vvas printed heretofore, concerning theſe things: vvhichwhich being firſt diſcuſſed, vvere then agreed upon by the Church. The note is this, as follovveth.