A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 2, Part 1

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 2 · Part 1

p. 1AGAINST CIƲIL OFFICES, IN ECCLESIASTICAL PERSONS: TRActate VII, and 23 according to the Doctor.

HAving in the laſt Tractate of the former part, shewed the vnlawful dominion of certein of our church officers, ouer the whole church, and eſpecially over their fellow Miniſters: yt ſeemeth good, to ioyn this next therevnto. For thereby shal boeth better appear how vnſufferable this diſorder is, which ouerſpreadeth boeth church and common wealth: and the gouernment by the Eldership (the tractate whereof shal follow immediatly) in yt ſelf iuſt, shal by compariſon with this church lordship, be more iuſtified.

That the moste of the places quoted by the Admonit. Diuiſ…. pag. 749.are vſed of vuriters of that excellency, vuith vuhome the D. is not vuorthy to be named the ſame day: hath, and further wil appear. His exception, that by this, they are lifted vp aboue god himſelf: is vain. For, beſide that it is a kinde of ſpeach vſed of the beſt autors, to note a great inequalitie: he is les worth, then I priſed him at, if he think that he is worthy to be named the ſame day that god him ſelf is. For if he wil ſo ſeruilely cleau vntounto wordes: yet the queſtion is, whether he be vuorthy, to be named, not (as he writeth) whether he may be named.

The place of S. aaLuK. 9. 60. 61.Luke 9:60Luke 9:61Luke, is vnderſtanded properly of theDiuiſ. 2. pag. 750. Miniſters of the word: and not of al Chriſtians, which is manifeſt, for that our Sauiour Chriſt biddeth him, that would hauehave goen bak for burial of his father, to preach the Kingdome of heauen, which he neuer commanded to al Chriſtians: ſo that his meaning is of the calling vntounto the miniſtery, and not of the calling to eternal life. That ſuch ciuil offices as he alloweth in Eceleſiaſtical perſons, are helpes for them to doe their duties, repeted p. 2aa752. D. 4. 757. 761. D. 5. 762. D. 7. 765. D. 3. 773. D. 15. 783.ſeuen times: is a demaunding of that in queſtion. For, where bb757. Diuiſ. 3. pa. 751.after he ſaith, he hath declared yt: he ſaith vntruly, he hath onelyonly nakedly affirmed yt: which how vntrw it is, shal after alſo appear.

My reply is that our Sauiour Chriſtes vocation, vuas to be a Miniſter of the goſpel, but he ccLuK. 12. 24.Luke 12:24refuſed ciuil iudgment becauſe of his vocation: therfore he refuſed it, becauſe he vuas a Miniſter of the goſpel. whervpon alſo followeth, that Bishops being Miniſters of the goſpel: owght not to receiue, any ſuch power. See now how iuſtly he complaineth, that I anſwer not to that he ſaid, that Chriſts refuſal in the partition of the inheritans, perteyneth no more to Bishops then to Kinges: no mervail alſo, if it require further anſwer, it was ſo wel garded: ſeing his reaſon ys, becauſe the doeinges of Chriſt be a patern for al Chriſtians: then which, there can be nothing more abſurd. For althowgh al his doeinges, be inſtruction to al Chriſtians: yet that they are a patern to them al, draweth with it, that al may preach, that none may giuegive iudgment in civil cauſes, and a number more horrible confuſions: yt being alſo a fals ground of popery, wherby they would eſtabliſh the lenton faſt, and other ſuch corruptions.

Vvhere alſo he would giuegive to vnderſtand, that our Sa. Chriſt did refuſe this, not as a Miniſter of the goſpel, but as Redemer: he renteth a ſunder thinges, which can not be ſeparated. For one part of his redemership, ſtandeth in that he was giuen of god vntounto vsus, for a teacher: ſo that, if he would hauehave anſwered any thing in this kinde, he muſt hauehave ſaid, that he refuſed to iudg of ciuil cauſes, not as a Miniſter of the word, but as a Prieſt, or King, whereof alſo the laſt, he in part ſetteth down: ſaying he refuſed yt, to declare that his Kingdome was not earthly, but heauenly: as if it were not as neceſſary, for hym to refuſe it in reſpect of his Doctorship, that he might declare likewiſe, that his doctrine was not of earthly thinges, but of heauenly: and conſequently, as convenient in the ſame reſpect, for the Miniſters to abſtein from it. But the further confutation of this, the reader shal take from thence, ddTra. 6. p. 404.where p. 3is shewed, that our Sa. Chriſt, by his own example, calleth the Apoſtels and, in them, al the Miniſters of the word, from al pomp and dominion: and therfore from theſe ciuil offices, whervnto pomp and dominion are annexed.

Then he anſwereth, that no man giueth the Bishops autority to iudg in matters of inheritans: whereas our Sa. Chriſt, refuſed it not, becauſe he was no Iudg of that cauſe, but ſimply becauſe he was no ciuil Iudg: aaIoh. 8. 1…John 8:1refuſing vponupon the ſame ground, to giuegive ſentence of the harlot. The Miniſters (for ſooth) may not medle with ciuil occupations, but with ciuil offices: and in ciuil offices, not with them of no countenance, as the Iailers office &c, but with thoſe of eſtate: and amongeſt thoſe of eſtate, not with matters of inheritance but with criminal cauſes. Thus, yow take your ſelf licence, to ſay al thinges, and to shew none. But to leau the reſt vntounto an other place, let the D. shew ſome reaſon, why the Miniſter should rather ſit in iudgmēt of criminal cauſes, then in pleas of inheritans: they boeth belong to the Magiſtrate alike, yf he owght to accept one, being committed vntounto hym by the Magiſtrate, why not alſo the other: eſpecially, when as by criminal cauſes, (requiring more ſearch and greater diligence then the other) there muſt needes be greater hinderance from his miniſtery. As for that he ſaith, thoſe are to be decided by law, and hauehave other Iudges appointed for them: the criminal cauſes are likewiſe. And if there were no other Iudges appointed for them: yet, whether there owght to be, is the queſtion: ſo that the D. anſwer, is here an open demaund of the queſtion. Vvhere alſo owt of M. Caluin, he alledgeth Barnard, that the Miniſters power is in crimes: it is a shameful abuſing, of boeth Calvin and Barnard. for they ſpeak there of rebuking and punishing ſyn, by eccleſiaſtical cenſures: which is manifeſt, in that they convey the title of this power, to the Miniſter, bb4. li. Inst. 11. cap. 12. ſect.by the Keies deliuered vntounto S. Peter. now the very word of Keies, eſpecially with this addition, giuen vntounto S. Peter: telleth al men, that the power there ſpokē of, is ſpiritual, and not ciuil. And here the D. is directly againſt him ſelf. For before, in this very diuiſion, ſaying that this iudgment in ciuil cauſes is not incident, p. 4but added to the miniſtery: here he pretendeth owt of Barnard, that ciuil iudgment in criminal cauſes, is of the power and iuriſdiction of the Miniſters.

And if it be trw that he ſaith after, the paſtor muſt vſe ſuch diſcipline, as ſemeth good to the Magiſtrate: when the Magiſtrate ordeineth ciuil diſcipline onelyonly, ether that diſcipline muſt be incident to the paſtorship, or els in ſuch a time, there shal be a Paſtor of god, which hath no diſcipline incident into his office: ſeing the eccleſiaſtical diſcipline, which is taken (by his iudgment) from him laufully, is not incident: ſo that this idle diſtinction goeth flat to the ground. I cal it idle, be cauſe it maketh nothing to the queſtion: which is not, whether a Miniſter may bear ciuil office, in that reſpect that he is a Miniſter, but whether he may bear it at al. And of this ſort alſo is, that our Bishops break not violently into theſe offices, but receiue them of the Princes gift: whereas our queſtion is, whether he may receiu theſe offices when they be giuen: yet hath he vſed this diſtinction, at the leaſt, fiue tymes.

After is added, that it is committed to them by the Magiſtrate, for fuller ſatisfying of their dutie: yf ſo, why should not al the Miniſters alike hauehave this power, to the end, that al might doe their duties the better. Again, in ſaying that it is neceſſary for this tyme: yow openly wreſt this power, owt of the Magiſtrats hād. For thereby it followeth, that the Magiſtrate of dutie, owght to cō mit this vntounto them: and if he doe not, he is giltie of gods wrath, in leauing vndoen, that which is neceſſary to be doen. yow doe alſo open iniury to the holy goſt, which is thus ſuppoſed to hauehave left that in the liberty of the Magiſtrate, which is neceſſary for the accomplishing of the miniſtery: whereas, if it had bene neceſſary, there had bene alſo nothing more eaſy, then to hauehave giuen this general rule, that alwaies vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate, the Miniſter should be armed with civil autority. But this ſuccour which yow ſeek in the tyme, is Pigghius shift: as is alſo this whole cauſe, and the flower of your arguments. For he ſaith, As long as the church Pigg lib. 5. hierarh ca. 16.vuas in perſecutiō, al vuere obediēt vntounto their Paſtors, hovu ſimple or baſe ſo euer the Miniſters vuere: but after that the p. 5church came to hauehave proſperity, then it vuas needful, that Bishops should be magnifical alſo, to the end they might be more apt, to gouern the magnifical Princes: and that otherwiſe his power and autority should not be ſufficiently reuerenced. To whome, as vntounto the D. it is eaſy to anſwer, that if Kinges and Princes, being yet in deadly hatred againſt the goſpel, were browght by the miniſtery of the word, vnaccompanied with any ſuch pomp or iuriſdiction, to yeeld them ſelues vntounto the goſpel, and to giuegive due reuerence vntounto the miniſtery: how much more now, being friendes, wil they be kept in dutie and convenient eſtimation thereof, withowt this diſguiſing of the miniſtery.

That alledged out of Caluin, that eueryevery man must reſpect his own vocation &c. beſide that it is drawen cleā from the minde of the autor, it is abſurdly applied. For the application, affirmeth it meet for the vocatio of the Miniſter, that he should bear ciuil office: which is that in queſtion. And where he ſaith, Caluin ſpeaketh nothing againſt theſe civil offices in eccleſiaſtical perſons, and after, that nether he nor any godly man, can diſalow of yt: he giueth ſuſpition that he hath ſould him ſelf to ſpeak vntruth, withowt al chek of conſcience. For Calvin sheweth, that albeit the godly Princes, giuing theſe offices to church men, had a good intent: yet, that they did euil provide thereby for the church, conſidering that by it was corrupted, or 4. lib. Inſt. 11. cap. 10. ſect.rather vtterly brovught to no vught, al true and auncient ſincerity, and that, the Bishops if they had had a spark of grace, vuould vuhen they vuere offered ſuch offices, hauehave anſuuered, that the armour of their vuarfare, is not carnal but ſpiritual. Here again alſo, he is owt with him ſelf. For in the end of his book, albeit the shiftes he vſeth are to rowgh hewed: yet, when he commeth to Caluin, in this matter void of al shift, he is conſtreined to reiect his autority. Yf he hauehave nothing againſt him, why doeth he make ſo ſmale account of him, as for nothing to caſt him of: if he be againſt p. 6him, why doeth he here deny it. And as I hauehave alledged M. Caluin, and ſome others: ſo the learned know that a number moe might be browght, to the making vp of a book: but for him, beſide the papiſtes (as I am verely perſwaded) ſcarce one ſo bould an enemy of the truth, as to commit this to writing.

Againſt the plain meaning of the Apoſtle, opened in flatDiuiſ. 4. p. 752. wordes, verſes 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. of Rom. 12. here is nothing but your ſuerly, and certein: which I wil ſuffer to hauehave that credit, it can get, againſt ſo manifeſt light. Your argument, is the ſame which I hauehave ſaid. The Bishop muſt gouern with diſcipline, therefore with ciuil diſcipline: your anſwer that he muſt vſe diſcipline preſcribed by the Magiſtrate, whether ciuil or eccleſiaſtical, is an asking of that in queſtion.

The anſwer to the place of aa2. Tim. c. 2. 4.2 Tim 2:4Timothy, that it is ſpoken of al Diuiſ. 6. p. …54.Chriſtians indifferently merely faced out with the name of Caluin: is bbLib. 5. hie rarch. ca. 6.Pigghius anſwer, to the proteſtants. And it is confuted, in that S. Paul inſtructeth Timothy there, not as a ſimple Chriſtian, but as a Miniſter of the goſpel: in that alſo he borowed this ſpeach of the law, which ccNum. 4. 3. & 8. 24. 25.Num 4:3Num 8:24Num 8:25calleth the miniſtery a ſouldiarfare: thirdly in that the ſame Apoſtle in other dd1. Co. 9. 7 Phili. 2. 25.1 Cor 9:7places giueth this title of ſouldiarship, and felow ſouldiarship, to thoſe of the miniſtery. Beſide that it flatly condemneth Cyprian, as an abuſer of the place: who by vertw hereof, forbiddeth a Miniſter an Executorship, which, by the D. ether is not forbidden him, or els is forbiddē to al Chriſtians alike. And not onelyonly Cyprian is condemned, but eeli. 1. officio cap. 38.Ambroſe and ffvponupon Sophon. 1. ca.Zeph 1Ierome which vſe it, as the admonition: Beſide ggBucer vpō Eph. ca. 4.Bucer and other godly writers of our tyme, as appeareth by Pigghius anſwer. The reaſon whereby Pigghius and he, would shew it vnderſtanded of al Chriſtians alike, is this. Al Chriſtians be ſpiritual ſouldiars: S. Paul ſpeaketh of ſpiritual ſouldiars: therfore he ſpeaketh of al Chriſtians: concluding affirmatiuely in the ſecond figure, which is to open a faut. where yow should vnderſtand, that althowgh Chriſtianity be a kinde of ſpiritual warfare: yet, it foloweth not, that every ſpiritual warfare, is Chriſtianitie. Your anſwer to Cypriā, whereby yow would reſtrein his iudgmēt to the Executorship, p. 7and not ſuffer it to hauehave place in civil offices: is friuolous, and flatly againſt his wordes, which aaCyp. lib. 1. epist. 9.ſaith that it vuas decreed in a Councel, that the Miniſter should onelyonly ſerue the altar, and the ſacrifices, and giuegive them ſelues to praier. Your reaſon is as fond, that the executorship is more trobleſome then to bear ciuil office, becauſe ſometime temporal men (as yow cal them) do refuſe it: as if therewere not, which refuſed other ciuil offices, for the ſame cauſe. The reply to the next diuiſion, the reader may take, owt of the bbpag. 409. l. 31.former part of my book.

The exception out of the Coloſſ. that wiues muſt obey their husbandes Diuiſ. 8. p. 755.in the lord: doeth not hinder, but that the place to the cc1. Theſſ. 5. 12.1 Thess 5:12Theſſa. may put a difference betvuene the ciuil and eccleſiaſtical gouernment. For S. Paul (as the Hebrews doe the prepoſition …) vſeth the prepoſition (In) diuersly. where therefore he willeth the Theſſalonians to acknovulegd thoſe, vuhich vuere ſet ouer them in the lord, he meaneth, in thinges perteining vntounto the lord: but when he willeth the vuiues, to obey their husbandes in the lord, he meaneth, that they should doe it, no further then is agreable vntounto the wil of god: not that he would reſtrein their obedience, onelyonly to ſuch thinges as pertein to the kingdome of heauen, as the wordes be taken in the other place.

In ſaying, that althovvgh the godly Magiſtrate ruleth in the lord ouer vsus, yet that this title is giuen by excellency foreignvntounto the eccleſiaſtical officers: I doe not daly; it is the diſtinction of the doly Goſt him ſelf. For, albeit they that handle cō mon wealth matters, ſerue the lord, and doe thinges tending to his glory: yet the ſcripture comparing boeth theſe gouernments togither, giueth this title, as a note to diſcern the eccleſiaſtical officers from the ciuil, as appeareth in the dd2. Chron. 19. 11.2 Chr 19:11Chronicles from whēce (it is like) the Apoſtle toke this maner of ſpeach. The reaſon whereof is: for that ciuil gouernments are not ſo nighly, nor ſo immediately referred vntounto p. 8the glory of god, as are the eccleſiaſtical. Beſide that this reproch is againſt M. Caluin, and Beza: who vponupon that placeupon the 5. chap. of the Theſſal. ground the ſame diſtinction. I graunt, there be ſome thinges common to boeth the gouernmentes, as be alſo to thinges diuers, yea contrary: but in cōfeſsing the ciuil gouernment diſtinguished from the eccleſiaſtical, and yet affirming certein ciuil offices common to boeth, yow ſpeak wthout al ſens. For, where that which should agree, owght to be a third thing from the eccleſiaſtical and ciuil power: yow make one of theſe two, to agree to them ſelues.

And althowgh he ſtil rubbeth vponupon this, that ciuil offices, ſuch as he meaneth, are not onelyonly no hinderans, but a help for the Bishop to doe his office: yet he can neuer be browght to expres, what thoſe offices be. For he feareth partly, that the confutation wil be a great deal eaſier: partly leaſt, if he should prik high, he should draw his cauſe into the hatered of al, if he should fallow, he should not ſerue their appetite, to whom he would, peraduenture, offer vntounto in this cauſe.

It is in deed a good reaſon, as the cours of this diſputationDiuiſ. 9. pag. 755. doeth declare: they must exerciſe eccleſiaſtical diſcipline, therfore not ciuil: they muſt hauehave the ſpiritual ſword of corrections alwaies in their hand, therfore not the ciuil: oneles they can hould, and beweld two ſwordes at once: and oneles the two hāded ſword of the word of god, occupiyng boeth their handes, they hauehave a third hand, for the ciuil.

To the next I anſwer, as vntounto the ſeuenth diuiſ. As forDiuiſ. 10. pag. 756. the anſwer which he asketh to his vntrw ſurmiſe, of the Admonit. abbridging the Magiſtrates autority, ſeing it is ſo often, and of no not onelyonly cauſe, but not ſo much as occaſiō, as a thing vnworthy once to loke bak for, I quietly pas by: albeit this vntruth hath, and shal (god willing) after generally appear.

To that I alledged, of the difficulty and multitude of duties, Cap. 2. Diuiſ. 1. p. 757vuhich the miniſtery of the vuord doeth lay vponupon the Bishop, of one ſide, and of the vueaknes of mans nature, of the other, therby to binde the Bishop from reaching owt p. 9his hand to other functions: he ſaith, that this had had likelihood, if he should exerciſe a function, contrary to the eccleſiaſtical. Of this ſort, are alſo theſe profes alledged aapag. 761. pag. 766. Diuiſ. 5. pag. 766.other where: that they may exerciſe boeth iurisdictions, becauſe they tend boeth to one end, that is to the maintenance of religion, reformation of manners, and punishment of ſyn. where the reader may ſee, that the diſtinction which he churmeth after ſo painfully, wil not come. As if there were any lawful function, be it neuer ſo baſe, contrary to an other lawful function: ſeing that good can not be contrary to good: nether are there any, which pertein not to the maintenance of religion. And the iudgment of landes (which notwithſtanding he confeſſeth vnmeet for a Miniſter) pertayneth to reformation of maners, and punishment of ſyn: whileſt that which is his, being giuen to eueryevery one, the wrong doers are punished. Likewiſe is alſo the Princis office: ſo that, if he may receiu al theſe callinges, he may ether exerciſe al the offices and occupations in the land, or at the leaſt moe then him ſelf dare avouch. But the prouerb shal thē be (as it is already) trw in thē: that he vuhich embraceth much, ſtreyneth but a litle. After he excepteth, that by this reaſon a Chriſtiā man should be cōtinually in ſpiritual meditation, and neuer medle with worldly affaires: which procedeth of a great want. for aſwel (althowgh not ſo principally) perteyneth it to the dutie of eueryevery Chriſtian, to hauehave to doe with worldly affaires: as at times conuenient, to be occupied in ſpiritual meditation. And as the reaſon which I browght, hath not ſo much as the leaſt ſeed of Anabaptiſm: ſo the D. anſwer, leadeth to plain monckery, whileſt he placeth the whole duty of a Chriſtian man in ſpiritual meditation. But, ſeing yow imagin the Bishops, to be men of ſo great burden, that beſide their church miniſtery, they be able to cary the ciuil office: anſwer me, how cometh it to pas, that they commit part of their own and proper office, vntounto Chauncelors, Archdeacons &c, except they hauehave more to doe then they can doe them ſelues? what a confuſion is it, to turn ouer to others, thinges which (they ſay) belong properly to their office: and to take offices, which they confes, are not incident to their calling.

p. 10I alledged, that the Apoſtles of greater giftes, then can Diuiſ. 6. p. 758.be hoped for of any, for accomplishment of the miniſtery of the vuord, gaue ouer euen that vuhich they had receiued vponupon them, that is to ſay, the dispoſition of the church money, a thing merely eccleſiaſtical, and therfore that vuhich might hauehave bene eaſelier ioyned vuith the miniſtery of the vuord, then a ciuil office. To this he anſwereth, the Apoſtles did boeth thoſe charges before, and therfore that theſe offices may ſometime meet: where, if he mean, they may meet now, it foloweth not. For althowgh they might meet, before the holy goſt, by the mouth of the Apoſt. made a ſeueral office of yt: yet they might not ſo afterward, when it was otherwiſe determined of, by the mouth of god. There were diuers kinde of mariages, with conſanguinitie, as brother with ſiſter, aunt with nevew &c lawful in the beginning▪ which, after that the lord had otherwiſe diſpoſed of in the law were vnlawful.

As for that owt of Caluin, and 2 Corinth 8, it is friuolous. For it neuer perteined to the Deacons office, to exhort for the contribution of the poor: but was, and is the Miniſters of the word: the Deacons office being, to receiu, and to diſtribute yt, in that church where he is Deacon. The cauſes alſo which he alledgeth, of the caſting of of that office, and the buſines which the Deaconſhip did draw in that church of Ieruſalem, are to trifle out the tyme: conſidering, that the decree of the Apoſtles, towching the nue office, was general for al places, and not where there should be many poor, or ſo many thowſand profeſſors. what a bouldnes is it alſo, when the Scripture doeth plainly shew, the cauſe of deliuering them ſelues from this office, to hauehave bene, that they should not leau their miniſtery and that they might be cōtinually vponupon it: to reiect this cauſe, and to ſet vp another, which the ſcripture… Act. 6 2.Acts 6:2 giueth no ynkling of.

That they ordeined others, for becauſe they should goe into the world, is alſo nothing worth: ſeing that in ſome of them, it came not to pas diuers yeates after, and in other ſome, neuer: as thoſe which were determined there to remain, when p. 11as notwithſtanding, al deſired this releas. Beſide that, he anſwereth nothing to the inequality of giftes, betwene our Bishops and the Apoſtles: nor conſidereth not, that the Spiritual charge of our Bishop, is ouer moe now then there were then in Ieruſalem: and that they were at that tyme twelu, where he is but one: had theyr church togither, which he hath ſcartered.

I shewed, that the Papists are not onelyonly condemned, Diuiſ. 3. pa… 759.for vuringing the ciuil autority ouut of Princes handes, but ſimply, for exerciſing it: and there fore this firſt ſection, is idle.

To that I alledged, that it is as monstrous for the Bishop to goe from the pulpit, vntounto the place of ciuil iudgment, as for my lord Maior to goe to the pulpit: he anſwereth, that it is not vncomely to goe from the pulpit to ciuil adminiſtration of iuſtice &c, which is a mere mockery of his reader. For not daring to deny, but it is vncomely for the lord Maior: he anſwereth, by affirming that in queſtion. For if he ſay, it is not vncomely for the lord Maior to goe to the pulpit, he runneth in to that, which he ſaith I ſurmiſe of him: where of notwitſtanding I hauehave not a letter. Albeit the truth is, that he may aſwel ſay, the Magiſtrate may miniſter the Sacrament and preach, which is the proper dwety of the Miniſter: as to ſay, the Miniſter of the word, may ſit in iudgment of ciuil cauſes, which is the proper dwety of the Magiſtrat. For, look what difference the lord hath ſet, betwene the office of the ciuil Magiſtrate, and of the Miniſter: the ſame muſt of neceſsity be betwene the office of the Miniſter, and of the Magiſtrate: as, there is the ſelf ſame diſtance betwene Athenes and Thebes, vuhich is betuuene Thebes and Athenes: and if there be a mile, from the top of the hil to the foot, it is as far from the foot, to the top.

And althowgh, yt abhorring the eyes and eares of al, he is afraid here to affirm it comely, that the lord Maior ſhould preach and miniſter the ſacramentes: yet as a man whoſe p. 12iudgment waſteth not by litle and litle, but is ſodenly and at a clap taken away, he shameth not a litle after to affirm, that the Prince may preach and the Bishop exerciſe ciuilpag. 768. office, if they be lawfully called therunto. where, if by lawful calling, he vnderſtand a wonderful and extraordinary from heauen, he ſpeaketh altogither from the cauſe, our queſtion being whether a Miniſter by calling of the Magiſtrat, or a Magiſtrate by calling of the church, may enter vponupon eche others office. And if he mean by lawful calling, the ordinary calling then his anſwer is abſurd. For he falleth into that abſurdity, which the Papiſtes doe falsly ſurmiſe: that we giuegive vntounto our Princes power to miniſter the Sacramentes. yea by his diuinitye, which giueth the chois of the Bishops to the pag. 135.Prince alone, and which maketh it lawful for one to offer him ſelf to the miniſtery: the king of the land may make him ſelfpag. 48. Bishop, withowt waiting for the church is conſent.

VponUpon that he alledgeth owt of M. Beza, which wisheth ſome of the nobilitie to be of the Eldership, compared with that which I affirm, that the Eldership is an eccleſiaſtical office: he concludeth, that ether I muſt diſſent from M. Beza, or graunt that one perſon may at once bear ciuil and eccleſiaſtical office. I anſwer, that nether is neceſſary. For, whereas Lordships, Baronryes and Erldomes are often ether by birth, or giuen of the Prince, as bare degrees of honour: ſuch being of the church Eldership, doe not therfore bear, boeth ciuil and eccleſiaſtical office: conſidering that they hauehave no magiſtracy neceſſarily ioyned with them, further then the ſame is particularly cō mitted. Albeit, hauing the Heluetian confeſsion, I finde no epistle of M. Bezas: ſo that, ether he miſtaketh the place, or els hath ſome other edition, then I could get.

Yf the gentry and nobility of the realm, be (as yow confes) fitter to bear theſe offices, then eccleſiaſtical perſons: there needed ſome great cauſes, to hauehave bene shewed by yow, why the fitteſt should not be taken: otherwiſe the white of expedience, that churchmen should bear them, which yow threap of them, that they ſee, wil be ſo dim, that boeth the Prince, and they paſſing by it, wil (I hope (put down (as there calling ſerueth) p. 13this vſurped power. In the mean ſeaſon, it being ſo expedient a thing for the churche, at yow pretend: the church is litle behoulding to yow, that doe not make this expedience to appear.

I ſaid that if there fal a question to be decided by the Diuiſ. 4. p. 760.vuord of god, and vuherein the aduiſe of the Minister is needful: that then his help, ouught to be required. The D. herevpon fathereth of me, that the magiſtrate may determin no weighty matter, withowt him: as if there were no weighty matter, wherein the Magiſtrat could know what is the wil of god, withowt ſending for the Miniſter: ſo that, it appeareth that there is no vntruth ſo open, which finedeth not (as in a cō mon Inne) lodging in the D. tong. But els (ſaith he) wherfore are theſe wordes? therfore, forſooth, that where yow and others might, vnderunder colour of the knowledg which he hath in the word of god, hould him the ſtirrup, to clime into the ciuil gouernmentes: it might appear, that the common wealth might reap that commodity, withowt ſuch iumbling of offices togither, which cauſe I expreſſed. The place ofDeut. 19. 17. 18.Deut 19:17Deut 19:18 Deuteronomie, is faithfully alledged. That, before the lord, in diuers places, ſignifieth before the Ark, it is wel knowen: that it doeth ſo here, firſt there is nothing againſt yt, thē the translation of vau by (and) rather then by (that is to ſay) is more vſed, albeit, whether it be or no, it maketh nothing to this matter. For, the weight of my allegation, lyeth in this, that the handling of the matter, is appointed vntounto the Iudges, not vntounto the Prieſts: whervnto, beſide his bare affirmation, he anſwereth nothing aaEſra. 9. 1.Ezra 9:1Likewiſe is Eſra faithfully alleged: and that owt of Eſr. 10. 4. 5. is nothing againſt it. For, althowgh that matter of diuorce pertained vntounto him, firſt, in reſpect that he should conuince the people of their faut, ſecondly, in shewing what was to be doen in ſuch a difficult caſe, where the Iſraelites had bene ſo long maried with ſtraunge we men forbidden, and begotten diuers children of them, and thirdly in the eccleſiaſtical cenſure of ſeparation from the congregation, there mentioned: yet to ſit in iudgment p. 14of them, or by ciuil punishment to driue thoſe, which would not willingly, is not shewed to pertein vntounto him.

To the next diuiſion, wherein is shewed that thoſeDiuiſ. 5. pag. 761. vuhich had onelyonly the light of nature, yea and vuere great extollers of mans ability, did yet ſee in part the incommodity, of this clapping of many offices vponupon one mans bak: is anſwered nothing, but that which is confuted aa1. Diu. pa. 757.before. Of the vniformitie of church gouernment, partly hath bene, and more shal, god willing, be ſaid afterward.

Here the D. hath not a word of anſwer, his reaſon why heDiuiſ. 6. p. 761. wil not anſwer, for that it is a matter of pollicy, and not of diuinity, doeth as it were, with one ſtroke of a pen, cros owt almoſt his whole book: where he hangeth al theſe church matters of the circumſtance of tyme, place, perſon, and of the form of the common wealth. Nether doeth my reaſon, accuſe the prince and the councel which is, that if it vuere at liberty for Ministers, to execute that vuhich perteineth to the Magiſtrate, or the Magiſtrate to doe that vuhich belongeth to the Minister: yet, that the later, vuith vsus, ovught rather to be doen, then the first: for that there is a greater vuant of ſufficient church men, then of able common vuealth men. But as I altogither excuſe none, from the higheſt to the loweſt of vsus, which hauehave continued this popish corruption ſo long: ſo I accuſe eſpecially yow, and ſuch as yow are, which in ſteed of refuſing them, and shewing the vnlawfulnes of mingling them, gape after them, and are readie to proclaim war (as the bb3. Mich. 5.Mic 5Prophet ſaith) if yow durſt vnles by hurling in ſome morſel one or other, your mouthes were ſtopped. And yt may be ſaid of Princes, how godly ſoeuer other wiſe, which lift the Bishops into this honour, that is ddHilarius aduerſus Conſtant.ſaid of a wicked Emperour, which promoted them likewiſe: he honored the Prieſtes, that they should be no Bishops, that is, that they should be vnable, to doe the office of a Bishop.

This worldly principalitie, entred not, as yow pretend,Diuiſ. 7. 8. pag. 761. into the miniſtery, with the Chriſtian Magiſtrate, immediatly p. 15after the tyme of perſecution: but long after. For, it began firſt Socrat. 7. l. c. 7. &c. …at Alexādria in Cyrils tyme, and after entred into Rome. your anſwer alſo, to the canō attributed vntounto the Apoſtles, is vain, for the canō oppoſeth the attendance in his eccleſiaſtical miniſtery, vntounto worldly offices: beſide, that your anſwer is otherwiſe to homely. For it is as much, as if yow should anſwer, that the canon is vnderſtāded of al worldly offices: ſauing thoſe which yow defend.

My reaſon owt of the Calcedō Councel is, for that it forbiddeth to take the charge of an Orphan, which requireth not ſo much attendance, as the ciuil offices, and which commō charitie, would otherwiſe lay vpō him. Again, for that itCan. 7. forbiddeth the Miniſter, to receiue vponupon pain of excommunication, any ſecular honour: and therefore the office of a Iuſtice of peace, of a Iuſtice of Quorum, of hauing iudgment of life and death which the D, I wil not ſay craftely (for it is to manifeſt) but fearfully, paſſeth by, whereunto ad4. Cō Carthag. …. 20. that decreed in another Councel, that the Bishop should onelyonly attend vntounto praier, reading, and preaching. where, ſo far it is, that it wil ſuffer him to deal with ciuil offices: that it forbiddeth to medle, with matters of his own houshould: which notwithſtanding belong vntounto him. and therfore I doe not allegd it, as that which I altogither allow: but to shew how ſeuere the auncient councels hauehave bene in this point, wherof he would bear vsus down, that there is not a word. For otherwiſe, withowt ſome fauorable interpretation, this canon in this point is owt of rule.

To the D. which wil not hauehave the Miniſters work: inChap. 3. … Diuiſ. pag. 763. any handy craft occupation &c, but bear ciuil office: I replied, that it vuas as much as if he should ſay, that he vuould not be bound vuith yron, but vuith goulden fetters &c. wherto he anſwereth, that I doe but deride. Here, I leaue it to the reader to conſider, whether by this which he calleth deriſion, I hauehave broken the head of his cauſe: ſo that, if it could, it would weep. As for that owt of M. Bucer, p. 16there is no man dowteth of: but that one, and the ſame may doe the office of a Miniſter, and of a Magiſtrate at once he affirmeth not: he doeth the clean contrary, as I aaIn the end of my former book and in the former part of this. pag. 660.hauehave shewed, and bbIn ratione canonic. examinat. 2. Diuiſ. pa. 764.further may be ſeen.

M. Caluin doeth not onelyonly invey againſt the papiſtes, which enter forcibly vponupon the Magiſtrates office: but againſt thoſe alſo, that receiue it being giuē. For his reaſons cc4. li. inst. …. c. 9. ſect.that no man is able to ſustein boeth thoſe charges &c. are general. I graunt, the D. alledgeth not al the Papiſtes reaſons: yet this of the papiſtes, is the ſame with his: yea in this point, with grief, I am compelled to ſee him further caried from the boundes of modeſty, then they are. For they (as ys alledged by M. Caluin) content them ſelues with this defence, that their miniſtery is not greatly hindred by it: but he dare ſay, that theſe offices are a furtherance to their miniſtery. which trwly, withowt miracle wil hardly be doen, that a man hauing alreadie a burden, as much as he is able to bear: should handle the matter ſo konningly, that he should not onelyonly be able to bear another as heauy almoſt as yt, but to bear it alſo eaſelier.

Hether perteineth, that he hath afterward, where he affirmethDiuiſ. 3. ca. 4. p. 764. that the neceſsitie of ſtudying the lawes of the realm, maketh him fitter for the miniſtery: that is to ſay in effect, maketh him hauehave more leaſure to ſtudie the lawes of the kingdom of heauen, therby to giuegive the riper iudgment in thinges perteining thereto.

And as this is ſtraunge, in the ſtudy of the lawes of the realm: ſo it is yet more ſtraunge in the practiſe by executing the office of a ciuil Iudg. For tel me, I pray yow, how the care yow owght to hauehave of the ciuil cauſes before yow come to iudgment, the tyme to be informed of them on boeth ſides, the examining of witneſſes, the conſultation to what law, or to what braunch of the law, the crime should be reduced: tel me (I ſay) how doeth it make yow fitter to execute your miniſtery, then if yow had beſtowed that tyme, in ſtudie of the word of god? if yow ſay, that by the knowlegd of theſe thinges, yow may doe your miniſtery the better: ſo p. 17may yow by knowledg of the Potters, the Vueuers, the Carpenters occupation, from which ſimilitudes being taken, the doctrine is deeplier imprinted: as we ſee to hauehave bene doen by the Prophetes and Apoſtles. But as it is not meet, that becauſe the knowledg of theſe thinges profiteth, that therfore Miniſters may exerciſe theſe craftes: no more foloweth it, that becauſe the knowledg of ciuil iudgmentes profiteth for the better doeing of the miniſtery, therfore a Miniſterlib. 4. Inst. c 11. ſect. 9. should exerciſe them. Now, if M. Caluin anſwering the Papiſtes, which onelyonly ſay that the exerciſe of this ciuil povuer, did not much hynder their spiritual ministery, called their anſwer babling: I leaue it to yow to conſider, how sharply he would hauehave cenſured this bouldnes of yours, if he had met with al.

As towching that which I ſaid, of bodily occupations fitter vntounto the estate of a Minister, then theſe ciuil offices: it may appear, for that they are doen withowt pomp or shew, which accompaniyng the ciuil offices, hauehave bene shewed to be vnlawful for the eſtate of a Miniſter. and that glittering shewes and pomp in the Miniſters, are hinderances to their miniſtery, may further appear: by that S. Paul did1. Co. 2. 4. 5.1 Cor 2:41 Cor 2:5 forbear from al ſtately wiſdom and brauery of wordes, to this end that the vertue of the ſpirite of god in the ſimplicity of the miniſtery, might shew it ſelf more cleerly. when therfore the ey ſeing this pomp, is as wel affected with it, as where the ear heareth it, and carieth it to the minde as ſone, and in the common people eſpecially, ſooner: by the ſame reaſon that the one, the other alſo muſt hinder the cours of the goſpel. Herevpon no dowt, Ambroſe ſaith, thatAmbr. lib. Epiſt. 5. Epiſt…l. 33. vuorldly gouernment is the vueaknning of the Priest: alluding vntounto the Apoſtles ſaying, that he vuas then ſtrong vuhen he vuas vueak.

Further, when the minde is weried, and that he vnbending it, wil giuegive it reſt for a tyme: it is more apt for him to exerciſe him ſelf, ether in planting or ſetting ſomewhat in p. 18garden or orchyard by way of recreation, then in shooting as it were cōtinually in yt, in the end to break yt, and to make it vnprofitable ether for the ciuil or eccleſiaſtical eſtate. And I meruail what ſteel the edges of their wittes be of, which wil not be turned, when they cut boeth ſo deep, and in ſo hard matters: whereas it is knowen, that men of counſail hauehave found in the office of a Iuſtice of peace or Quorum, ſo much to doe, that they hauehave had ſcarce tyme enowgh, to doe the office of a father of a houshould, in their priuate families. And it muſt take vp ſo much more tyme in the Bishops, then in them: as they, for want of being nourished in the knowledg of the lawes and cuſtomes of the realm, are more vnready in ſuch caſes, then the nobilitye commonly is: onles they wil ſit vponupon the bench like idols, nodding rather to the pleaſures of others, then vponupon any grounded knowledg, giuing iudgment them ſelues.

His reaſon of the difference, that the Miniſter can not commit his power to whome he list, but that the Prince may: is (I fear me) an endeuour of to open flattery, at the leaſt it is to loſely ſpoken. For, althowgh there be greater libertie, in the one, then in the other: yet, the Prince can not commit his power to whome he listeth, but is bound firſt to chuſe thoſe which fear the lord, then thoſe which are beſt able to execute yt, to the glorie of god and commodity of the ſubiectes: and therefore not the Miniſters, which hauehave already as much as they can turn them to, when they doe their moſt. Beſide that he can not thus eſcape. For, if the Prince wil accept the miniſtery, of the Bishops hand: then his difference falleth to the ground, and thē, by his ſaying, the Prince may wel preach, as the Bishop bear ciuil office.

As for his example of Samuel, which did Saules office in slaying Agag, when as Saul might not doe Samueles in ſacrifiſing: it maketh nothing for him. For, Samuel did it not by Sauls autority, but by an extraordinary calling from god: ſo that if this example proue, that eccleſiaſtical perſons may bear ciuil offices, it proueth that they may doe it withowt any commaundement of the Prince. I pas by, that it was not Samuels p. 19office to ſacrifice, as the D. imagineth: he being not of the race of Aharō to whome onelyonly that apperteyned, but a ſimple1. Cron. 6. 20. 23. Leuite: ſo that where it is ſaid that he ſacrificed, ether it muſt be vnderſtood that he procured the ſacrifice to be made, or els that it was doen by an extraordinary calling, contrary to the rule that the lord had giuē, of offering ſacrifices

To that I ask, vuhy if the Miniſter be helped by exerciſing a ciuil office in his ovun perſon, the Magiſtrate should not be helped by exerciſing likevuiſe an eccleſiaſtical: he anſwereth, the Magiſtrate may doe by corporal punishment, which the Miniſter cā not doe by eccleſiaſtical: ſo may the Miniſter doe by eccleſiaſtic. which the Magiſtrate cā not doe by corporal. And this in deed is the ordinance of god, that eueryevery one should doe that which properly belongeth vntounto him: and not that one, should doe al. where he addeth, that the Magiſtrate may bridle the moſt vnrulieſt, where the greateſt cenſures of the church, few now a dayes doe regard: verely it is no mervail, thowgh they be contemned, being exerciſed as they are, by thoſe to whom it apperteyneth not, and for eueryevery trifling and three halfpenny matter: where if, being duly executed, they be contemned, the Magiſtrate beareth the ſword, to punish that contempt. But the D. would hauehave the Miniſter, hauehave that ſword in his hand: that beſide the ſentence of excōmunicatiō, he might hauehave alſo the ciuil ſword, wherby he might ſtrike a furtherRom. 13.Rom 13 fear of him ſelf into the peoples hartes. In deed, thus is fear, which the Apoſtle moſt properly giueth vntounto the ciuil Magiſtrate becauſe of the ſword which he beareth, translated vntounto the Miniſters: And thus it commeth to pas, that they hauing boeth ciuil, and eccleſiaſtical vengeance in their handes, make them ſelues more terrible vntounto the people, then the Magiſtrate him ſelf, which hath but the ciuil ſword onelyonly. Vuhereby hath growen (and if it be not in tyme preuented) wil grow contempt of Magiſtrates, and other inconueniences: wherwith Princes them ſelues hauing bene before beaten, owght ſo much the ſtreighter to look vntounto. As for that he bringeth, of other eccleſiaſtical punishmentes which may be vſed, beſide thoſe preſcribed in the ſcripture: it apperteineth p. 20to another queſtiō. And ſo doeth Gualters teſtimony, which is not onelyonly idly, but shamefully alledged, in this cauſe eſpecially: conſidering that he doeth preciſely cōdemn thevponupon the 6 chap. 1. Co. Diuiſ. 2. p. 764. exerciſe of any ciuil gouernment in eccleſiaſtical perſons. The two next diuiſions, are anſwered.

I know that corporal punishmentes be meanes to bring men to hear. and (if yow wil alſo) to beleue the word: but that it doeth ſo, or at leaſt ſo much when it is executed by the Miniſter, as when it is executed by the Magiſtrate, I denie: euen as it is in excommunications and eccleſiaſtical cenſures, when they are executed by thoſe to whom they doe not appertain.

It foloweth not, that becauſe fear of ciuil punishment is profitable, therefore yt is profitable in the Miniſters hand: nether for that it hindereth faith vuhen the Miniſter, preaching in the pulpit, hath the ciuil ſvuord in his hand, there fore it hindreth, when the Magiſtrate houldeth it in his hand. For the profit of the fear of the ſword, dependeth vponupon the bleſsing of god, that giueth it efficacy: which bleſsing is then giuen, when the ſword is drawen by him, vntounto whom it properly belongeth. There are of iudgment, that it is not conuenient,M. Aſcham in his Schol…maſter. that the ſame should teach ſcholers, and chaſten them with the rod, but that ſome other rather should hauehave that charge, wherwith I wil not medle: but if the Scholemaſter should hauehave beſide the rod, the ſword alſo to take away the liues of their ſcholers, or to ſend them to the iayl, who ſeeth not the inconuenience that would riſe thereof. And yet the Scholemaſter, as he whoſe office is les eccleſiaſtical: is much more capable of this power, then is the Bishop.

That he ſuppoſeth me to affirm, that the cauſes which Diuiſ. 6. pa. 766.they medle with as the Queenes maieſties Commiſsioners, are eccleſiaſtical, and that they may giuegive a iudicial ſentence of them: is a flat vntruth. This onelyonly I gaue to vnderſtand, which I yet affirm, that the ſame cauſes may be boeth ciuil, and eccleſiaſtical. For in reſpect that inquiſition is made, to punish yt with corporal punishment, it is ciuil: the ſame is alſo eccleſiaſtical, when it is examined, to the end that the conſcience may be towched p. 21with ſens of the ſyn, by the church cenſures.

The D. ſimilitude is (as I ſayd) manifeſtly iniurious to Diuiſ. 7. p. 766.the Magistrate. For if the execution of the lawes belong vntounto the Bishop, as the making of them doeth to the Magiſtrate: it foloweth, that as the one is the proper office of the Magiſtrate, ſo the other is the proper of the Bishop. And further, that in that common wealth, where the Magiſtrate may make the lawes him ſelf alone: there, by his reaſon, the Bishops may execute them alone. As for his anſwer, it is nothing but a demaunding of that in queſtion.

That moſes did the office of the Sacrificer is certain: Diuiſ. 8 pa. 767. & 9. 768.in that he aaExo. 24. 6. 8.Exod 24:6Exod 24:8ſprinkled the blood vponupon the altar, and people, which perteyned properly vntounto the Prieſt. likewiſe the ſame is confirmed by his bbEx. 29. 13.Exod 29:13ordeyning of Aharon, and his ſonnes, to the prieſthood: which belongeth vntounto the Prieſt in like maner.

That Moſes (after Aharon was made Prieſt) preſcribed Aharon what he should doe: he did it from the mouth of the lord, and that alſo as the Prophet of god, and in a ccAct. 7.Acts 7figure of the doctorship of our ſauior Chriſt, and not ſimply as the ciuil gouernour of the people. For althowgh the ptieshood, were taken from him: yet he remained a Prophet vntounto his dying day, and therefore that exception is inſufficient. So is that alſo, of them, in whome he ſaith that boeth offices ciuil, and eccleſiaſtical met. For not to enquire how truly thoſe examples are alledged, eſpecially of Nehemias, of whome there is not a ſtep of likelihood, that he exerciſed boeth the offices: it helpeth him no whit althowgh it were ſo, as he alledgeth: conſidering that ſuch were extraordinarily raiſed vp of god, and not by any eſtablished order or election of men. VvhichWhich alſo is a peece of anſwer to that alledged after to this purpoſe of our Sauiour Chriſtes whipping, which was in ruinous, and not in10. Diuiſ. p. 768. ſtanding eſtates of the church.

Nether is this once to moue, much les to ouerthow that which was before diſputed. For the queſtion is, what order the church is bound vntounto, not what lawes the lord is bound vntounto: likewiſe the queſtion is, not what ether may be doen, p. 22or tolerated in the deſolation and waſt of the church, but what owght to be doen, in a church eſtablished and reformed: and what that order is, for eſtablishment wherof, eueryevery man muſt employ him ſelf, according to his calling. In Elies and Samuels tymes, it appeareth that the church was in miſerable eſtate: boeth by the whole diſcours of the ſtory, and namely aa1. Sam. 3. 1.1 Sam 3:1that there was a great dearth of the vuord of god. But mark (I pray yow) this diuinity, he would hauehave their examples which hauehave bene (as he ſaith) boeth Priestes and Princes, yea and bbpag. 262.Captaynes alſo of the host, ſerue to proue that Miniſters may be Iuſtices of peace, but not that, they may be Princes or Captaines where as if thoſe examples proue, that a Miniſter may be choſen to bear ciuil office, they proue eſpecially, that he may be choſen to bear that office, which they bare, from whom he fetcheth his profe. For if that wherefore they may be choſen to other ciuil offices, doe not agree vntounto them: the other which hauehave their ground from thence can much les agree. Therefore, if the D. be afraid to confes, that thes examples proue, that a Bishop may be a king or a Captain if he be choſen to yt: he owght alſo to be afraid, to confes that a bishop may be a Iuſtice of peace, when he is choſen vntounto it.

To that I ſay, that theſe examples doe as vuel proue, that the ciuil Magistrate may be a Bishop, as that the Bishop may be a ciuil Magistrate: he anſwereth, that the ciuil office is accidental to the ministery, and ſuch as may be remoued from it, but the ministery is not ſo vntounto Princes, onles they be ordinarily called: then which, what can be more confuſedly ſpoken. For, if I should graunt, that the Prince might be a Miniſter of the goſpel, and the Miniſter of the goſpel a Prince: why should not (I beſech yow) the miniſtery be as accidental to the princehood, as the princehood vntounto the miniſtery. Surely, if it be not accidental to the princehood, and yet ſuch a thing as agreeth vntounto it: it muſt needes be eſſential, that is, that which can not be ſeuered from it, withowt hurt of that eſtate. Beſide that, in placing the difference of the p. 23reſpect of the Miniſtery, to the princehood, and of the princehood to the Miniſtery, in that the Prince may not be a Minister withowt an ordinary calling: yow giuegive to vnderſtand, that the Miniſter may bear ciuil office, withowt an ordinary calling. For if the Miniſter may not bear ciuil office, vntil he be ordinarily called: then here is yet no diſtinction made, betwene the reſpect of a Miniſter to a ciuil office, and the ciuil officer, to the Miniſtery. In the end yow are compelled, to deſtroy your own diſtinction: affirming, that as a minister may ioyn to his Ministery, a ciuil office, if he be called therevnto by the Prince, ſo the Prince may ioyn to his office the function of the Minister, if he be called vntounto it by the Bishop. For ſo yow muſt needes mean, ſeing yow make him the Stward of eccleſiaſtical officis: which abſurdity before this birth of yours, I ſuppoſe was neuer heard of: and it is thorowgh owt the whole diſcours confuted. For, as for that yow ad, if they be lawfully called, it is to open folly: ſeing the queſtion is, whether there be any ſuch election lawful.

Here the D. is taken again, in his wordes. For if theDiuiſ. 10. p. 768. example of our Sauiour Chriſtes whipping, doe proue that, a Minister may medle with ciuil affaires: then it proueth, that he may not onelyonly ſit in iudgment of crimes, but alſo be the Tortor himſelf, which he denieth. For our Sauiour Chriſt, executed the punishment with his own hand.

To that alſo I alledged, that the Ministers, by the examples of Paul and Peter, may be Fishers, and Tentmakers, if of the D. examples it may be concluded, that it is lavuful for a Minister to bear ciuil office: he anſwereth, they may doe ſo vponupon like occaſion. The occaſion of S. Paules laboring with his handes was, partly that he2. Cor. 11. 12 1. Theſſa. 5.2 Cor 11:12 might not in that point be inferior to the fals. Apoſtels, which toke no ſtipend: partly to ſupport the need, and pouerty of the churches. There being now therfore Anabaptiſtes, which teach withowt wages and diuers churches which are very poor: by the D. anſwer, it is conuenient the Bishops p. 24should exerciſe ſome handycraft. which beſide other inconueniences, is againſt that which him ſelf hath truly ſaid, that they are hinderances vntounto the miniſtery: conſidering that there be no ſuch giftes now a daies as the Apoſtles had, which were able to doe more with one hand, then we with boeth. And if his anſwer were trw, yet it is nothing to purpoſe. For, if by theſe examples he wil conclude, that Miniſters may ordinarily be called to the ciuil gouernment: then it muſt alſo folow, that by theſe examples of S. Paul and Peter, the Miniſters may ordinarily hauehave occupations ioyned with their miniſteries. But if the Miniſters may not exerciſe any handicraft, but in like caſes as the Apoſtles did, and vponupon like callinges: then it foloweth alſo, that they may not exerciſe ciuil offices, but in like time, and vponupon like callinges as thoſe did, from whome he draweth his proofes. The reſt is anſwered.

Before the D. ſaid, that the Miniſters could not exerciſe any ciuil Diuiſ. 11. p. 769.iuriſdiction in tyme of perſecution: here he ſaith, that Timothy, whichDiuiſ. 7. p. 762. liued in time of perſecution, exerciſed ciuil iurisdiction. Thus, like a windshaken reed, he neuer ſtandeth in one ſentence. But (I pray yow) note his reaſon, which is becauſe mention is made of accuſers and witneſſes: as if they were not common to al kinde of iudgmentes. For where the thing is not manifeſt, there the trial muſt needes be ether by confeſsion, or witneſſes: ſo that if there be an eccleſiaſtical iudgment, there muſt needes be witneſſes and accuſers: otherwiſe the Miniſter in tyme of perſecution, should take vponupon him ciuil iuriſdiction, withowt the conſent of the Magiſtrate, which is abſurd, and being vrged by me, is vnanſwered. yea the Houſemother, which, vponupon accuſation and witnes of ſome of hir children, chaſteneth other ſome: should by the D. ſaying, break vponupon the office of the ciuil Magiſtrate.

VponUpon diuerſe reaſons browght to shew, that S. Peters killing Ananias and Saphyra with the word (which reaſonDiuiſ. 12. p. 770. Pigg. 5. lib. hierarch. cap. 2. was miniſtred him owt of Pigghius) proueth not that the Miniſters may hauehave their priſons: he anſwereth nothing, but taking vp the carcaſe of his argument, in ſteed of burying of it, aſſayeth to blow life into it, after this ſort. Peter punishing p. 25with death, did nothing repugnant to his vocation: therfore it is not repugnant, to the vocation of a Miniſter, to punish with temporal punishment: which foloweth not. For as muche as the vocation of a Miniſter now, is not the ſame which Peters was at that tyme: not onelyonly for that he was an Apoſtle, but alſo, for that withowt a particular motion of the ſpirit of god, it was vnlawful for any, or for Peter him ſelf to hauehave doen ſo.

That browght to vphould this with, that that which Peter did by extraordinary power, the Miniſtery now may doe by an ordinary: is a very cartrope, to pul in al confuſion into the church and common wealth. For thus, of that Phinees a priuate man killed, and the Iſraelites borowed, which they neuer meant to reſtore: if the Magiſtrate wil licence men to doe ſo, it shal be lawful by the D. rule. If he ſay, that thoſe are thinges forbidden, but not this, that a Miniſter should bear ciuil office: it is nothing but an asking of that in controuerſie, wherupon he continually faleth. And where he ſaith, he ſpeaketh of the fact of Peter, and not of the maner: euen the fact of Peter, was to kil a man, withowt any vnderunder Miniſter. And therfore of this anſwer alſo, it foloweth that the Magiſtrate may appoint the Bishops, to be the Tortors and hangmen: which the D. hath before denied. How commeth it alſo to pas, that he which aapag. 149.before compared the politik lawes of god, putting Idolaters and adulterers to death, in cruelty with the Turkes lawes: now maketh it a death matter, if a man, to conceal ſome part of his wealth, being iudicially demaunded thereof, do make a ly. For thus much he ſaith in effect: when he affirmeth, that it may now be doen ordinarily, which Peter did then extraordinarily.

Vuhere I added, that the povuer vuhich S. Peter vſed vuas eccleſiaſtical, and vuithal, my reaſon ovut of the bb1. Cor. 1….1 Cor 1Apostle, vuho reckeneth that amongeſt the church giftes: leauing the reaſon, he oppoſeth the autority of M. Beza. whereas, if that had bene any lawful kinde of diſputing: I could hauehave alledged learned writers, that ſuch punishmentes were doen by vertue of that church office. But how could S. Peter, doe that by right of the ciuil Magiſtracy: when as the ciuil p. 26Magiſtrate had no right, to punish that diſsimulation, which was hid. Hetherto alſo refer, that the D. him ſelf in his aapag. 769.former book, affirmeth that their offence was against no ordinary law of the church, or common wealth. wherevpon foloweth, that there being no tranſgreſsion againſt his lawes, there could be no punishment due. M. Bezas meaning is onelyonly, that as the lord, when there was no Chriſtian Magiſtrate, did vſe corporal punishmentes, and thoſe of death, againſt them which reſiſted the doctrine of the goſpel: ſo the Chriſtian Magiſtrate, should doe the ſame: ſo that althowgh his maner of ſpeach be diuers with that I propounded, yet his iudgment is al one.

Here Pantaleon and M. Bale, are reiected as inſufficientDiuiſ. 13 p. 771. to make report of Eugenius doeinges, which was ſo long before their tyme: and yet Eraſmus is ſtoutly vpholden, for reporting Titus to hauehave bene an Archbishop, albeyt Titus was 600 yeares before Eugenius. But, if the D. can not shew any that commaunded, that the Bishops should hauehave priſons before Eugenius: theſe writers shal be able eaſely, to maintayn their credit againſt his bouldnes, of affirming and denying, what ſo euer he liſteth.

To that owt of Poſsidonius, that thoſe matters alledgedDiuiſ. 14 p. …71. of the Bishop to be doen of Auguſtin, could not be ciuil affaires, conſidering that he immediately oppoſeth them vntounto ſecular or worldly matters: beſide wordes he anſwereth nothing. he oppoſeth other places owt of Auguſtin, wherof the firſt owt of his book of the workes of monkes, can not be vnderſtanded, as he would hauehave it, of any iudgment giuen by reaſon of ciuil autority. For that which he did, he affirmeth, that the Apostle 1. Cor. 6.1 Cor 6commaunded it should be doen, by the most contemptible in the church: So that oneles he dare ſay, that the Apoſtle commaunded, that the ſimpleſt in the church might bear ciuil office, when the Magiſtrat being an enemy would commit no autority vntounto him, this place is vtterly from the purpoſe. Again, when Auguſtin ſaith, that the Apostle hath tyed him ſo to doe, and laid yt vponupon him: if the D. p. 27wil hauehave, that a ciuil office is there vnderſtanded, it muſt folow, that the ciuil office is incidēt vntounto the office of the miniſtery, and can not be ſeuered from it.

The place owt of his epiſtle 110, is to as ſmale purpoſe. For, in that it appeareth there, that the Councels decreed, that Auguſtin should ceas from thoſe buſines: it is manifeſt, that he dealt with them, not by any right of ciuil office. For what had the Councel to doe, to decre that he should not doe that which the Magiſtrate had lawfully laid vponupon him: he owght to hauehave ſowght the releas of that, at the Magiſtrates hād, and not at the Councels. likewiſe, in that he obteineth of the people, that theſe matters should be turned from him, vponupon Eradius, and that in an eccleſiaſtical aſſembly, where they met for chuſing of one to ſuccede Auguſtin in the Bishoprik: it is manifeſt, that it was no ciuil office. Laſt of al, it is to be obſerued, that in boeth theſe places, Auguſtin complaineth of theſe matters as of hinderances vntounto his Miniſtery, as thinges which did more let the cours of yt, then if he had vurovught eueryevery day vuith his handes in ſome occupation: that he ſeeketh to be deliuered from them at the Councels and at the peoples handes: whereas our D. ſaith, that they are not onelyonly no hinderances, but neceſſary helpes to doe the Miniſtery with, and not onelyonly ſeeketh not, that the Bishops may be diſcharged, but maketh cordes, to binde theſe offices ſtreighter to thē. I hauehave reported the truth, the Bishops wordes are owt of Clement,Diuiſ. 15. p. 772. that it is not lavuful for a Bishop to deal vuith boeth a In the defence of the Apolog. 5. part chap. 4. Diuiſ. 2. cap. 3. diuiſ. 7. Diuiſ. 16 p. 773.ſvuordes: likewiſe that he ovught to be remoued that vuil ſupply the place boeth of a ciuil Magiſtrate, and of an eccleſiaſtical perſon. Theſe wordes doe not onelyonly cōdemn the pulling the sword owt of Princes hādes, but al vſe of it in eccleſ. ꝑſons.

I pray god, that the cuſtome of shameful denials, doe not ſo harden your forhead: that no point of truth how sharp ſoeuer, can perce it. Howbeit I truſt, whatſoeuer yt pleaſe yow to ſay, it is manifeſt to al that doe not willinglie cloſe their eyes againſt the truth: that the ſcripture p. 28teacheth that Miniſters, owght not to medle with ciuil offices. That which yow ad owt of Deut. 17, maketh nothing for yow: for, they are there biddē to reſort vntounto the Prieſt, as to the Interpreter of the law, when the queſtion was difficult, and they knew not what to doe. which is manifeſt, in that he diſtinguisheth there the Prieſt, from the Iudges: ſo that in ſuch appeales, he placeth the Prieſts and Leuites office, in teaching what is the wil of god, and the Iudgis office in giuing ſentence accordingly: as appeareth yet more plainly in the ſame aaverſ. 11.chapter.

The ſame is to be anſwered, to that alledged owt of Nombers 27. In which matter that the Prieſt was preſent, and called to conſultation for the difficulty thereof, to know what was the wil of god in that behalf, it is manifeſt, in that he being not able to reſolue of the matter, Moſes bbverſ. 5.was fayn to bring it to the lord: To let pas, that it was not Aharon which was taken into that conſultation, but Eleazar: onles yow wil hauehave Aharon decide controuerſies, after his death.

The example of Melchiſedec boeth king and Priest, is more abſurdly alledged, then the other: not onelyonly becauſe he was before the law, when this order of ſeparating the prieſthoodPſal. 110. Heb. 5.Ps 110Heb 5 from the ciuil gouernment, was not yet eſtablished, but becauſe he had them boeth, that he might be a figure of our Sauiour Chriſt: as the Apoſtle and Prophet doe declare. Yow might much better hauehave alledged Abraham, which was boeth a Prieſt, a Prophet, and a noble warrior: which notwithſtanding, yourſelf doe not permit vntounto the Bishop.

As for the appeal, which Conſtantine graunted, from the ciuil Magiſtrate vntounto the Bishops, likewiſe Theodoſtus and Carolus graunt that men might chuſe the Bishops Iudges of their controuerſies, if either party would: they were the wreſtes, wherwith the Princes ſcepters were wrung owt of their handes, and (as I hauehave before shewed owt of M. Caluin) al ſyncerity ovut of the churches. yea vponupon that very graunt of Conſtantin, it is noted in theIacobus Grinzus. margent, that it is repugnant boeth to the doctrine, and example of S. Paul. And in deed by the firſt of theſe decrees, the Bishops ciuil autoritie, is made equal with the Emperours. p. 29And by the other, it is at the pleaſure of the people, whether al the ciuil Magiſtrates shal be Idoles or no, hauing the bare name of the Magiſtrate, withowt doeing any duty. For, if ether of the parties, be affected towardes the Bishops iudgment: the Magiſtrates may goe lay them down to sleep. Nether doeth it folow, that becauſe the Emperours gaue ſuch liberty, or licentiouſnes rather, vntounto the church, or becauſe ſome Bishops vſed it: that therfore, the practiſe of the church was ſuch. For I hauehave shewed, that the godly Counceles forbad it: and that the godly fathers vtterly misliked of it. And as I hauehave alledged ſome, ſo it is not hard to alledg aaTertul de leiunio. Ier. in Soph 1. cap. Chryſoſt. 3. honul. in Act.Zeph 1others, to the ſame effect.

In his example of Dorotheus, his translation is fauty. For in ſteed of foreign which ſignifieth a ciuil honour, he hath turned it priesthood: as if it had bene foreign. the office alſo which Euſebius noteth he had, was to ouerſee the purple dyes in Tyre: an office to aduance the Miniſtery (I think) in the D. own iudgment, very vnfit. His examples of Philaeas and Epiphanius, ſerue not his turn. For nether is it ſaid, whether they medled with ciuil affaires before their bishoprik, or in yt: and if it were, conſidering there is no approbation of their doeing, but onelyonly a bare telling that ſuch a thing they did, it can not help him. For it is one thing to ſay, they were commended for dexterity in ſuch matters: and another to ſay, that they did it in dutie, and wel. euen as if the ciuil officer, taking the pulpit, and ſpeaking fitly of a text, a man might giuegive him the commendation of dexteritie in handling the text, and withal, condemn him for doeing it withowtpag. 341. calling. Hether perteineth that which he alledgeth in another place, of Letoius a Bishop which burned Monaſteries: but by what autority, appeareth not, beſide that his act ſeemeth otherwiſe to hauehave no ground. For if it had any good iſſw, it was more by hap then by good konning. The like and vponuponTheod. lib. 5. cap. 39. like zeal was doen by one Audas a Perſian Bishop, that burnt an Idoles Temple, which act gaue occaſion of greuous perſecution: whereby may appear, that Bishops went ſome tyme beyond their limites, and did thinges permitted vntounto them, nether of god, nor man.

p. 30Of our age he citeth witneſſes M. Cranmer, Ridly, Hoper, and in another place Brentius. for Brentius, ſeing he hath no reaſon,pag. 64. let him hauehave that credit, which ſo ſmale a friend of ſincerity deſerueth, eſpecially againſt the conſent, of ſo many better then he: for the other, he maketh it not to appear, that they were of that iudgment. And of M. Hooper, it is manifeſt thatvponupon the eight commandemēt he did flatly condemn it: which sheweth that the Bishops for the space of 400 yeares after the Apostles, althovugh they vuere more able thē ours, did meddle vuith no ciuil affaires. where he sharply taūteth our Bishop which meddleth with boeth offices, when one is more then he is able, vuith al his diligence, to diſcharge, and impoſsible that he should doe boeth: and that if the Magistrate vuil employ a Bishop in ciuil affaires, he ovught to diſcharge him of his Miniſtery. Yf M. Cranmer and Ridley did exerciſe boeth, that is to be aſcribed to the tyme: wherein the Sun of the goſpel, being but lately riſen in our climate, al the cloudes which popery had ouercaſt our land with, could not be ſo quikly put to flight.

Seing therefore the Miniſters office, is onelyonly in thinges that pertayn to god, which for a degree of excellency that they hauehave in promoting our ſaluation, more then other, the holy goſt oppoſeth vntounto the Princes, and common wealth affaires: ſeing alſo it is of greater weight, then the ſtrongeſt bak can bear, of wider compas, then the largeſt handes can faddam: a ſoldiarfare that wil be onelyonly attended vponupon: ſeing alſo it tendeth to the deſtruction of the body, when one membre encrocheth vponupon the office of another: and that the ciuil Magiſtrate may by the ſame right invade the office of the Miniſter, as he the office of the ciuil Magiſtrate: ſeing further our Sauiour Chriſt, hauing the ſpirit withowt meaſure, refuſed as a thing vnmete for his miniſtery, the office of a Iudg: ſeing alſo the Apoſtles indued with ſuch glorious giftes, as are not now to be looked for, gaue ouer the office of the Deaconship, as that which they were not, with p. 31the Miniſtery of the word, able to exerciſe: and ſeing for the burden thereof, it was eaſier then the ciuil charge, which the Bishops take vpō them, and for the kinde of Miniſtery more agreable: ſeing alſo the examples in the Scripture, of thē which hauehave born boeth the charges, are ether before this order was eſtablished of god, or being ſithens, were extraordinary: laſt of al, ſeing this mingling of the eſtates is contrary to the practiſe of the elder church vttered boeth in Councels, and fathers, contrary alſo to the practiſe and iudgment of the godly learnedeſt of our tyme: I conclude, that it is vnlawful in an eſtablished eſtate of the church, that a Miniſter of the church should bear ciuil office. And thus much againſt the Miniſters, which hauehave one foot in the church, and an other in the common wealth. Now to the treatiſe of the Eldership, for the cauſe aaIn the beginning of this tract… te.before aſsigned.