A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 2, Part 2

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 2 · Part 2

p. 32THAT THE CHƲRCH GOƲERNMENT BY AN ELDERSHIP IN EueryEvery congregation: is by the ordinance of god, and perpetual. Tractat 8. and 7. according to the Doctor p. 626.

THat which ^a Tully ſaith of an Oratour fulChap. 1. Diuiſ. 1. a In philip. of Antony. of wordes, that he would make owtcries, to get an appetite to drink: may be feared ſomewhat otherwiſe in the D. who giueth ſuſpition, that he hath forced his pen to write, not to get, but to quench (if it might be) the thirſt of honour. And verely if this order of Eldership, had not ſtrenght to ſtand by our defence: yet the vertw of it might eaſely appear, in that yt ſo amazeth, and aſtonieth the aduerſary, as if he had bene ſtricken with a thunderbolt from heauen: ſo that beſide a multitude of wordes, wherwith by oppreſſing the reader, he might make ſome shew of anſwer, there wil be litle found, that can of right chalendg a reply. Howbeit, to honor him with ſome anſwer, leauing his diſordered handling which I noted: aſwel for that his defence is fond, as for that this is not the place to diduct that matter, let vsus ſee, what he bringeth in this cauſe.

Againſt that I alledged owt of the Apoſtle, The Elders 1. Tim. 5. 171 Tim 5:17vuhich rule vuel, are vuorthy dubble honor, eſpecially vuhich labor in the vuord and doctrine, to proue that there were Elders, which aſsiſted the teaching Miniſters, onelyonly in the gouernment of the church: he anſwereth firſt, that the word, Elder, is the ſame commonly with Bishop or Paſtor: wherein partly he confuteth him ſelf. For, if it be but commonly ſo taken, and not alwaies: then it may be taken otherwiſe in this place. His firſt example likewiſe out of Peter 1. 5. is plain againſt him: for thereby appeareth, that Peter an Apoſtel, and no Bishop, is called Elder. nether is there any word in p. 33that place, wherby the exhortation to the Elders should not be applied, as wel to the Elders which gouerned onelyonly, as to thoſe which labored in the word alſo: conſidering that the word of feeding, reſpecteth not onelyonly preaching, but that gouernment alſo which is with owt preaching: in which reſpect boeth in ſcripture, and otherwiſe, the ciuil Magiſtrate is ſaid to feed: And it is to great an ouerſight, to think that becauſe al Bishops be Elders, therefore al Elders are Bishops: when as the name of Elder is common vntounto al, which hauehave gouernment of the church, and moſt properly agreeth to thoſe, which hauehave the gouernment onelyonly, withowt further charge of teaching. And the name is taken, of the vſage vnderunder the law: where they which had onelyonly gouernment ether in church or common wealth, were ſo called.

Secondly he ſaith, that by thoſe that gouerned, and labored not in the word: are vnderſtanded, thoſe, which miniſtred the ſacramentes. where to let pas that which hath, and shal be after (god willing) shewed, that the ſame owght to be Miniſters of the word and Sacramentes: I would know of him, which hangeth ſo of the interpretation of men, why he hath here departed from the iudgment of the learned and godly writers of our age, and forged an interpretation, which hath no approbation of any auncienty. For, as for that he ſaith of Chryſoſtome, beſide that yt is vntrw: if he had neuer ſo ſmale a ſound that way, he would hauehave rong it ſo deep, that withal he would hauehave turned Chryſoſtomes clapper. But obſerue, how vnproperly he maketh the Apoſtle to ſpeak, in giuing the name of gouernment vntounto that, wherein there is no gouernment at al. For is yt not (think yow) a ſtrong kinde of gouernment, and needeth it not a great gift of diſcretion and iudgment, to powr a litle water vponupon the childes head, diſtribute a lofe of bread, cary the cup, and ſay, or read a ſentence, al, as he is praeſcribed? when the Apoſtle, no where giueth this title of gouernment vntounto the Deacons, in whom notwithſtanding is required no common diſcretion, to know to whome, and how much is to be giuen: how much les would he giuegive it to ſuch, as hauehave the onelyonly, and bare adminiſtration of the Sacramentes.

p. 34How should alſo S. Paul be made to agree with him ſelf, which went the neereſt way to work, to eaſe the churches of charges: if he should hauehave brought into yt, ſuch vnprofitable burdens as is this order of Miniſters of Sacramentes, which the D. imagineth, eſpecially ſeing a Paſtor was needful in eueryevery church, who being praeſent at the Sacramentes, might as commodiously Miniſter them, as be a receiuer onelyonly. His reaſon, that the Apostle would otherwiſe hauehave ſaid, which labored in the word and Sacramentes, is weak: not onelyonly becauſe it is vſual vntounto the ſcripture, by the cheif part to note the whole, but alſo, for that the Sacramentes are conteyned vnderunder the word, and are a viſible word, in which reſpect they are alſo ſaid to hauehave a voice. Nether doeth he herea Exod 4. verſ. 8.Exod 4:8 make mention of praying, another of the Bishops bbAct. 6. 4.Acts 6:4duties: ſo that by your anſwer, we should hauehave an other order in the church, of Sayers of prayers. Alike vayn it is, that S. Paul was not ſent to baptiz, but to preach, when he was called to boeth, althowgh rather to the one, thē to the other, as your ſelf ſome where hauehave confeſſed. As for that yow would conclude, that Pastors hauehave no more bond to baptiz in their churches, then S. Paud had, yow might aſwel hauehave concluded, that al Paſtors are Apoſtels: conſidering, that he ſpeaketh that in reſpect of his Apoſtleship, whereby he was bound to goe from place to place, and not to tary (as the paſtor) in one place.

The titles of Christes Vicares, and of gods Prelates, doe boeth agree vntounto the Elders, which onelyonly gouern. And althowgh nether Ambroſe nor Caluin make any mention of this Eldership vponupon …. Timoth. 5. 19. yet how foloweth it, that they ment no ſuch Eldership in the place which I aaTim. 5. 17alledged, this is but a ſtraunge concluſion. M Caluins place alſo Inſtitut. chap. 8. ſect. 72, is shamefully abuſed: for he ſaith, that thoſe vuhich teached vuere Elders. And where as the rule of the action, when the Eldership met, apperteyned vntounto the Miniſters of the word: that they choſe amongeſt them, one which gouerned the action. Now in ſteed that M. Caluin ſaith, that al the Ministers of the vuord, vuere called Elders: p. 35…he An. maketh him to ſay, that al the Elders of the church, were Ministers of the word. where Caluin in the ſelf ſame chapter doeth expresly make two kinde of Elders: one of thoſe vuhich Miniſtred the vuord, another of thoſe vuhich vuere onelyonly Cenſores of the maners of the church. This Ierome is (if I hauehave not taken my note amis) a baſtard: and yet he hath nothing for him. For in that he ſaith that there was and order, which had the word, but labored not: he is as fauorable vntounto this Eldership, as vntounto his order of ſacramēt Miniſters. The next diuiſion hath nothing, but that which cometh afterward to be handled.

Againſt the place, that aaAct. 14. 23Acts 14:23Paul and Barnabas ordeined Diuiſ 3 p…. 628.Elders by voices in eueryevery church, firſt he excepteth, that the plentith of preachers then was ſuch, that eueryevery congregation where Paul and Barnabas had to doe, might hauehave moe then one: which is ſaid withowt ether profe, or likelihood. the vntruth wherof may eaſely appear, in that to the great cities, where there was greateſt ſtore: S. Paul was fain to ſend Timothy and Titus for ſupplies, which otherwiſe he could ſo hardly ſpare. Then he ſaith, to ordeyn Elders throwgh eueryevery church, is to ordein one Pastor in eueryevery one, which is no plain, but a figuratiue ſpeach, and that doubly: boeth in that the general name of Elder, is put for the particular, and in that the plural number is put for the ſingular. Therfore vnles he can work it owt with good reaſons, to proue that the gouerning Elders, can not here be vnderſtanded: the ſimple and plain ſens, is to be praeferred. As for the place of Titus, it helpeth him not. For the Apoſtel referring Titus to that order, which he had preſcribed him: contenteth hym ſelf, to purſu the office of the teaching Elder, vponupon occaſion of fals teachers, which trobled the church.

For that owt of Caluin and Brentius, it may be ſaid, that althowgh S. Luke cal them Elders, which were Bishops: yet he calleth them not ſo onelyonly. And of M. Caluin, it muſt needes p. 36be ſo vnderſtanded: ſeing he auoucheth the place of Titus,Inſtit. 4. book 3. chap. ſect. 8. which the An. confeſſeth al one with the 14 actes, for the eſtablishment of theſe gouerning Elders. But if the D. had read M. Nowels catechiſm, ſo diligently as he would ſeem:a pag. 155. this would not hauehave bene ſo ſtraunge to him. For where he sheweth, that the Paſtor owght not to excommunicate withowt the iudgment of the church, and declareth that for that purpoſe there were in the wel ordered churches certeyn Seniors choſen, and ioyned with the Paſtor: he quoteth this very place, which the admonition doeth. And I ſee not why, it may not be as wel referred to the Elders, as to the Bishops: Seing S. Luke there ſetteth forth, how they ſet a ful order in the church. And of that iudgment, is the greekOecumenius in 14. ctcto. Scholiaſt, which affirmeth that thoſe vuhich folovued S. Paul and Barnabas, vuere vuorthy to be Bishops: and that they created of them Elders and Deacons alſo. In the next diuiſion, if the D. firſt anſwer be onelyonly conſidered, he might iuſtly complain of me: but when he by and by, reaſoneth againſt the admonition, for that yt would proue Seniors owt of that place of 14 Actes, al ſee that I hauehave doen him no wrong.

To proue further, that boeth Paſtors, and Elders whichDiuiſ. 5. p. 630. onelyonly gouern, can not be vnderſtanded in that place of the Actes: he aſsigneth this reaſon, for that the holy gost should vſe equiuocations, or ſpeak dowtfully: then which, there can be nothing more vnſauery. For it is a great ouerſight, that he can not put a difference, betwene a word that is general, and hath diuers formes vnderunder yt (of which ſort this word Elder is) and betwene that which hath diuers ſignifications. Rather I may ſay, that for ſo much as S. Luke did not vſe, the particular word of Bishop, but the word Elder, which conteineth boeth Bishop, and other Elders: that his meaning was, not that the Bishops onelyonly should be meant. And ſuerly, when as the word Elder, doeth ſo agree to Bishops, that it doeth much more properly (as hath bene shewed) agree to the Seniors: it were hard to vnderſtand Bishops, and shut owt Seniors, to whom that name doeth moſt properly pertayn: eſpecially there being no circumſtance in that place, whereby p. 37that should be of neceſsity tyed to the Paſtor onelyonly. Beſide that thoſe which hauehave knowledg in the hebrue tong, know that the ſcripture vſeth ſome tymes aaIudg. 10. 4 Iudg. 15. 16.Judg 10:4Judg 15:16equiuocations, and yet nothing therby derogated from the ſimplicity thereof: but (as it is bbAben Eſra vponupon Gen.obſerued) maketh ſometyme to the elegancy, and ornament of the ſpeach.

That the place to the cc1. Cor. 12. 28.1 Cor 12:28Corinth. can not be vnderſtandedDiuiſ. 6. & 7. pag. 631. of ciuil Magiſtrates, as the An. and ddDorman. 2. Tom. fol. 45.Papiſtes would hauehave it, and therfore that yt owght to be vnderſtood of eccleſiaſtical officers, I hauehave eeIn the former part of this booK pag. 418.shewed: whereof alſo there is the ſame reaſon, in the place to the ffRom. 12. 8.Rom 12:8Romanes. Nether can that owt of M. Gualter, maintein any ſuch opinion: ſeing it was not lawful for the church, to appoint any ordinary Magiſtrate, to hear ciuil cauſes: nether needed any ether goe to them for iudgment, or ſtand vntounto the iudgment giuen, further then the parties liſted, therfore that could not be any gouernment, which was withowt autority. How true it is, that learned men expound the word gouernmentes, of ciuil and eccleſiaſtical, at the leaſt to the D. knowledg: the reader may therby know, that Gualter which he choſe to ſpeak for them al, doeth not affirm it. For in that he ſaith, there is now no need of them ſeing there is a Chriſtian Magiſtrate: he manifeſtly oppoſeth them to a Chriſtian Magiſtrate. Althowgh M. Gualters autority, may not be receiued in this queſtion of diſcipline. For beſide that his hand, is herein againſt the learned boeth ould, and nue which I hauehave ether red or heard of, alſo againſt the practiſe approued in the churches of al ages, and amongeſt them againſt the practiſe alſo, vſed in ours: it shal appear, that the reaſons drawen from him, are altogither inſufficient.

Then he ſaith, that by that word Gouernours, the Pastors may be vnderſtanded, becauſe hauing ſpoken of the Doctor before, he mentioned not the Paſtor: which is abſurd, boeth becauſe it should be a meruailous confuſion, to hauehave caried the Paſtor ſo far from his fellowes, which are the Miniſters of the word, and reckened vp in the beginning: and for that, the Paſtor is not ſeuered from the Doctor in gouerning, but onelyonly in the p. 38kinde of teaching. whereas he, by his anſwer, shutteth owt the Doctor from the gouernment of the church. Beſide that howſoeuer I doe make a Pastor, and a Doctor, diuers: yet for as much as him ſelf, maketh them al one, S. Paul placing the Doctor before, he owght to hauehave bene ashamed to ſay that S. Paul may mean this of the Paſtor. That he addeth, that the place being doutful, it can not ſerue to eſtablish the Seniors, is daungerously ſpoken, and ſmelleth of popery: as if the ſcripture should loſe her autority, becauſe men agree not of the vnderſtanding of it. Althowgh (I ſuppoſe) there are few places of ſcripture, wherein thinges are ſpoken of, ſo shortly: that hauehave ſo ful conſent of learned interpreters of our tyme, as this place hath, for that ſignification of Seniors, which we vſe it for. And in deed, when the Apoſtle maketh it a diſtinct office, from the Miniſters of the word, which notwithſtanding hauehave the gouernment of the church: it muſt needes be an office occupied in gouernment alone, otherwiſe it should not be ſeuered, from their office.

The ſame reaſon, is of the place to the Romanes: againſtRom. 12.Rom 12 which, that which the D. bringeth owt of Caluin, is nothing worth. For althowgh the precept of bearing rule in diligence, may by proportion, be caried to al Magistrates, yea and to al craftes men, ouer their Apprentiſes: yet the wordes of the Apoſtle, are neuertheles vnderſtood properly of the Elders in queſtion, as M. Caluin declareth boeth there, and aaInstit. 4. booK 1…. chap. 1. ſect.other where. Likewiſe are M. Martyr &c. Bucer, idly cited of him. For ſeing they boeth agree, that theſe Elders are comprehended in that word: what ether hurteth it vsus, or helpeth yt him, that other beſide them are vnderſtanded.

Yf they preached ſome tyme, that was not by vertw of this office: and the place of Timothy alledged of M Beza, doeth not proue it. Nether owght the An. to hauehave alledged that interpretation, againſt this cauſe: ſeing him ſelf doeth therin differ from M. Beza, as wel as I, which by preſidentes in the vuord, hath before expounded the Bishop, as it is in deed and p. 39not as M. Beza, for a kinde of Elder, differing boeth from the Paſtor, and Doctor. But the An. is like that fellow that would hauehave boeth his eies put owt, that his neigbour might leſe one. For to the end he may doe ſome ſcare to the truth, he bringeth euē that which is the ouerthrow of his cauſe: namely M. Bezas iudgmēt of an Eldership gouerning, beſide the Miniſters of the word, that is beſide boeth Paſtor and Doctor. And of this trweth which we maintein out of this place vntounto Timothe, emongeſt others, we hauehave M. aain lib. de rat. can. examin.Bucers moſte plain and moſte ful teſtimony: which vponupon this ſentence of S. Paul, flatly confirmeth that there were tvuo kinde of Elders: one, vuhich together vuith the diſcipline, had the charge of the vuord and Sacraments, and another, vuhich had charge of the diſcipline onelyonly. I confes there was ſome faut here, in aſcribing wordes vntounto him, which he hath not: but it was an ouerſight onelyonly, not as he maketh yt, with minde to forge.

Here the An. repenteth him of his good deedes. For whereDiuiſ. 8. p. 633. he had accorded before, that there were ſuch Elders, as are in queſtiō: now he ſaith, he ment them of Seniors, which be Miniſters. wherevpō it foloweth, that it is not meet that there should be any Miniſters at this tyme. For of the ſame Elders, which he graunted to hauehave bene in tymes paſt: he affirmeth, it incōuenient that they should be now. And if he ſay (as he hath ſaid) that they were onelyonly Miniſters of Sacramētes, firſt he giueth his reading Miniſters the wipe, which by this iudgmēt of his, are clean cut of, as vtterly inconuenient for this tyme. Again, he affirmeth that the Seniors in tymes paſt, were ſuch as exerciſed the iuriſdiction, which the Magiſtrate doeth now: in that he ſaith, that they can not now be withowt iniurie of the Magiſtrate. whereas if this office were, ether a Miniſtery of the word, or Sacramentes, it could not towch the office of the Magiſtrate: ſo that throwgh the nawghtines of this cauſe, in his whole cours of anſwer, he doeth nothing, but as it were paue his way, with ſnares to entrap him ſelf. And for anſwer to him, this may be more then ſufficient.

p. 40Howbeit for the readers ſake, althowgh this Eldership is manifeſt in it ſelf, of the wordes of the holy ſcripture: yet the ſame shal receiue ſome confirmation of the practiſe of the churches after, which kept this order boeth in perſecution and peace. This I wil doe, if I firſt in a word, note how this order of Eldership, was taken from the gouernment of the people of god, before and vnderunder the law. yt is therfore to be obſerued, that ſo ſone as there is made mention, of any fixed form of church, which ſtanding of diuers houshouldes, were deuided into particular aſſemblies: ſo ſoon is made mention, of this office of Elders. For Moſes to let theExo. 4. 29.Exod 4:29 churches, and aſſemblies of the Iſraelites to vnderſtand hys Embaſſage from god: aſſembled the Elders. which, that they were eccleſiaſtical officers, thereby may appear: for that vnderunder ſuch a Tyrant, and ſuch oppreſsion as the Iſraelites were in, it is altogither vnlike, that they had the benefite of Magiſtrates of their own. And if a man would ſay, that thoſe Elders were the Taskmaſters, which Pharao had ſet ouer the Iſraelites: beſide diuers vnlikelihoodes thereof, it is flatly confuted, in that after the Iſraelites departure owt of Aegypt, before any nue creation of officers, this order of Elders is ſpoken of, and as church officers, aaExo. 17. 5.Exod 17:5taken to the adminiſtration of church matters.

Another example hereof is, bb2. Reg. chap. 6. 32.2 Kgs 6:32where Elizeus is ſaid to hauehave had the Elders in his hows, to conſult with: what tyme the king of Iſrael, ſent a meſſenger to take of his head. The like is ſaid, of other ccIerem. 19. cap. 1. Ezech. 8. 1.Jer 19Ezek 8:1Prophetes: which in that ſtate they were in, were vtterly vnlike to hauehave the ciuil gouernours to conſult with. Likewiſe in Nehemia, there are mētioned certeyn,Nehem. 8. 5.Neh 8:5 which as they are diſtinguished from the people, in that they are reckened as aſsiſtantes vntounto Eſra, boeth on the right, and left hand: ſo be they alſo diſtinguished, from the teaching Leuites, in that the Prophet, after he had ſpoken of theſe, ſpeaketh of that ſort of Leuites, which had theverſ. 8. 10. teaching of the people. This is alſo ſtrenghtned, by that the nue teſtament ſpeaking of the eccleſiaſtical officers amongeſt the Iues, ioyneth with the Scribes (which I hauehave ddIn the former part of this booK pag. 443.shewed to note thoſe, that had the handling of the word) p. 41the elders: which should hauehave bene withowt reaſon, if therea Actes 4. 5 & 6. 12. etc. Act 5. 21. b pag. 304.Acts 4:5Acts 6:12Acts 5:21 had not bene a kinde of Elders, which had not the handling of the word. wherby it may appear, that it is wntrue, which the An. gathereth owt of Caluins wordes: that theſe Elders should hauehave their beginning, after the Iues return owt of the captiuity: whereas he onelyonly affirmeth, that there was a bench or (as ſome term it) a Conſiſtorye of eccleſiaſtical offices appointed, after their rerurn: but ſaith not (as he pretendeth) that they were then firſt of al appointed. Nether can M. Caluins wordes, be drawen to that ſens. For, if by theſe wordes of his (the Sanedrim vuere appointed after the Iues return) should be vnderſtood, that they were then first created, and not rather, that they were then reſtored: yt muſt folow, that the Prieſtes and other leuitical teachers, which were a portiō of that bench, had then their firſt inſtitution. which ſentence ſo abſurd, and ſo ful of ignorance of the ſtate of the church: no man which hath a ſpark of equity, can aſcribe vntounto M. Caluin. Althowgh if it were ſo, as he pretendeth, that theſe Elders did then begin: yet, that helpeth him nothing at al. For it should not hauehave therefore, the les autority: conſidering that it were to be eſtemed, that they toke it not vp of their own head, but by the autority of the Prophetes of god, which liued then, and directed the ſtern of that gouernment. And herein (howſoeuer the An. miſconſtrueth him) M. Caluin isvpō the 18. of S. matheuu. flat: that this eſtate was lavuful, and approued of god.

Hauing thus ſpoken, of this order of Elders, in the Apoſtles tymes, and before: I wil now return to that I promiſed, of the practiſe of the churches after the Apoſtles tymes, to ſee if this order of Elders can finde any more fauour of thē, then of the Anſwerer. Amongeſt which, that of Tertullian, Tertu. Apolog. chap. 39.before alledged of me, is moſt clear. Nether can the D. eſcape with this, that the colledg was likely to be of Miniſters of the word &c. conſidering that it is vncredible, that al the churches, whoſe defence Tertullian taketh vponupon him, and whoſe vſage he deſcribeth, had ſuch a colledg. Then, that of Cyprian commeth to be conſidered, which noteth a peece of p. 42the office of theſe Elders, aaCyp. 4. booK. Epist. 5.by deuiding the communion bread into equal portions and carying it (for the aſsiſtance of the Bishop) in litle baskets or trayes: where by placing their office in this aſsiſting the Miniſter, he doeth manifeſtly shut them owt from the miniſtring of the Sacrament: eſpecially ſeing Cyprian in that place, noteth the honor of that office, to conſiſt in that they had by reaſon of it, acces to this aſsiſtance of the Paſtor, in ſo great myſteries. which should hauehave bene fondly put, if they might alſo by vertue of that office, them ſelues hauehave miniſtred the Sacramentes, as wel as the Bishop: whereof alſo it cometh, that in another bb1. booK ep…. 9. Sportulātes fratres. Poſſid… …s in the life of Auguſtin.place, he calleth them brethren, vuhich had care of the basket.

But towching the vſe of the Affricane churches, vntil Auguſtins tyme, that one teſtimony is more then ſufficient: wherby is affirmed, that Valerius Bishop of Hippo, did contrary to the cuſtome of the Africane church, in that he committed the office of teaching vntounto Auguſtin, which was an Elder of that church, and that he was checked therfore of the Bishops: checked (I ſay) nothwithſtanding that Valerius is there declared, to hauehave doen it for ſupport of his infirmity, becauſe him ſelf was not ſo apt to preach. And howſoeuer Poſsidonius, alow of Valerius fact: yet boeth the cōtinuance of that order by the ſpace of 400 yeares, and the iudgmēt of other Bishops round abowt, is withowt compariſon of more weight: eſpecially, when it appeareth by Poſsidonius writinges, that (being a good ſimple man) he was nether of great learning, nor deep iudgment. where alſo, it is to be obſerued, that as the diſcipline was beſt kept in thoſe churches of Afrik: ſo the doctrine remayned pureſt in them: As may appear not onelyonly by the Councels of Carthage, compared with other councels of that tyme, but alſo by Auguſtins writinges, compared with Ieromes, and other Doctors boeth greek and latin, in the ſame age.

In other churches, where this diſcipline was not ſo diligently looked vntounto: there are notwithſtanding markes, p. 43wherby we may know, that they went owt of the way. As at Alexandria, where, althowgh the Elders did teach: yet after Arrius was convicted of hereſie, it was decreed, that the Elders should no more teach. by whichSocrat. 5. booK chap. 22. decree, they did, as it were, couertly confes: that they had receiued the reward of breaking the order of god, in permitting that the Elder, should teache in the church. For if it had bene of the inſtitution of an Elder, to preach: Nether Arrius, nor ten thowſand moe ſuche heretik Elders, owght to hauehave giuen cauſe of ſuch a decree: ſeing the inſtitution of the lord owght not to be broken, for any abuſe of men. Ierome (I graunt) ſomewhere doeth reprehendAd Nepotian. this, and ſome learned of our tyme after him, hauehave eſtemed the decree of Alexandria fauty herein. But that being conſidered, which I hauehave alledged, there is no cauſe to condemn that decree, whether it were of the Nicen councel, or of Athanaſius and the Eldership of Alexandria. And what if Ierome him ſelf, althowgh an Elder of Rome, giuegive teſtimony vntounto this cauſe: that is to ſay, that yt belongeth not vntounto an Elder of the church, to miniſter the word, or Sacramentes? Let his wordes be weighed, wherby he confeſſeth playnly, that nether Elder nor Deacon Ierom cōtr… Lucifer.had right, but vponupon the Bishops commandement, ſo much as to baptiz: vuhich notvuithstanding (ſaith he) is licenced euen to laymen in tyme of neceſsity. Vnhereunto alſo, refer that, which Tertullian writeth, that it belonged vntounto the Bishop onelyonly to baptiz: and that the ElderTertul. lib. de Baptiſ. and Deacon could not baptiz, but vponupon the Bishops licence.

Now, if the Elders had no right to preach &c. by reaſon of their office, or as incident into yt, if the Bishop onelyonly had right, and the other but by indulgence, or commandement: thus far we hauehave boeth Tertul. and Ierome agreeing with vsus, that by the word of god and his inſtitution, the Elder hath not to doe with the word and Sacramentes. And the ſame autors we hauehave alſo, flatly contrary to the D. p. 44which houldeth (as appeareth by the diſcours of his book) that al Elders and Deacons of the church, althowgh not in gouernment, yet towching the miniſtery of the word and ſacramentes, are equal, and hauehave as much autority, as the Bishop him ſelf. This difference onelyonly remaineth, betwene Ierome and vsus, whether this being not of gods inſtitution, that an Elder may preach, or Miniſter the ſacramentes: it be lawful for any man, to giuegive licence therof. which bouldnes of remouing and changing the boundes, which the lord, in the tarriers of his word hath limited: boeth is before, and shal afterward (god willing) be further handled.

Laſt of al, for proof of theſe church Elders, which being occupied in the gouernment, had nothing to doe with the word: the teſtimonie of Ambroſe alledged in my former book, is ſo clear and open, that he which doeth not giuegive place vntounto yt, muſt needes be thowght as a bat, or an owl, or ſome other night bird, to delight in darknes. His ſaying is, that the Elders fel avuay by the ambition of the Doctors: Ambroſ. in 2. Timot. 5.where by oppoſing the Elders to Doctors, which tawght, he plainely declareth that they had not to doe with the word. whervpon it is manifeſt, that boeth yt was the vſe in the beſt reformed churches, certein hundreth yeares after the tymes of the Apoſtles, to hauehave an Eldership which medled not with the word, nor adminiſtration of Sacramentes: and that they which wanted it, partly complayned of the want, partly declining from this inſtitution of god, corrected their error, at the leaſt, they kept this difference, that whereas the Bishop preached and miniſtred the Sacramentes, in right of his office: the Elder did it not as a thing incident to his office, but onelyonly vponupon indulgence of the Bishop.

Another point wherin the D. turneth his tong is, that where he confeſſed before, that there was in eueryevery church Seniors: now he ſaith, in ſome onelyonly. And to ſalue this contradiction, with him ſelf: he ſaith by eueryevery church, he ment, eueryevery cheif city. Thus yow ſpeak, but by what rule, and according to whoſe language, when yow expound eueryevery church, eueryevery cheif citie? as if p. 45their were no churches, but in cheif cityes. But thus muſt al their tonges be deuided, which put them forth againſt the truth. Howbeit to come to that point, by what reaſon can yow ſhew, that the Apoſtles inſtituted a ſeueral Miniſtery for cheif cities, which they did not for vplandish townes? what were this, but to bring in an inequality, amongeſt the churches: which your ſelf otherwhere, confes owght not to be. Yt is (I graunt) meet for the furtherance of the goſpel, that the cheifeſt cityes, when al can not be ſerued, should hauehave the firſt, the ſufficienteſt, and (according to their need) the greater numbre: but, that they should hauehave a ſeueral Miniſtery ordeyned for them, into the felowship whereof, the ſmaler churches may not be admitted, is withowt reaſon.

Secondly, the goſpel which conteyneth the doctrine and diſcipline, went not owt of Ieruſalē, into the cheif cityes onelyonly: but into al the world. Thirdly, it hath bene shewed, that the epiſtle of S. Paul to Timothy, wherein mention is made of the interteinment of theſe Elders: was not a rule preſcribed to churches in great cities onelyonly, but vntounto al churches wheroſoeuer. Further, ſeing the Elders are continually ioyned, with the Bishop: it being aaIn the former part. p. 514.shewed, that the lord ordeyned for eueryevery congregation a Bishop, it muſt folow, that he ordeyned for eueryevery congregation Elders. finally, for as much as the Apoſtles labored, to bring the churches one with another to an vniformity, euē in the ſmaleſt ceremonies: how can they be thowght, to hauehave made ſo vneuen work, in the Miniſtery of the church.

I let pas here the place in the Actes, before handled: whereAct. 14.Acts 14 it is ſaid, that Elders vuere ordeyned in eueryevery church. Likewiſe, the neceſsity of them, aſwel in other churches, as in churches in the citie: which is after to be handled. OnelyOnly I wil note, what hath bene the practiſe of the churches, in this point: wherby may appear, how the auncient fathers hauehave vnderſtood this order. That Ignatius, which the An.Ad Tralli. wil hauehave S. Iohns ſcholer affirmeth, that there is no church, foreign.vuhich can stand vuithovut her Eldership, or Counſail. p. 46This is manifeſt alſo by the Apologie of Tertullian, wherin he defending the gouernmēt of al the churches, not of thoſe onelyonly in cityes, and shewing for that cauſe the order obſerued in them: maketh preciſe mention of this Senate of Elders, as hath bene before alledged. The teſtimony of M. Bucer, is alſo manifeſt in this point: as it is alledged of me aaIn the former part. p. …56.before. Likewiſe of M. bbvponupon the …. to the Corinth. 12. chap.Martyr, who affirming that certeyn of the people, vuere ioyned vuith the Pastor in the gouernment of the church: aſsigneth the cauſe, for that the Pastor could not doe al him ſelf, thereby giuing to vnderſtand, that the Eldership was as general, as the Paſtor. For he doeth not ſay, where the Paſtor could not doe al, there he had aſsiſtance of an Eldership: but becauſe the Paſtor could not doe al &c.

The onelyonly reaſon, which the An. hath againſt this, is: that there was not an Eldership amongest the Iues, in eueryevery of their ſynaguoges. But (as his wont is) he doeth onelyonly ſay ſo, proof he bringeth none. And as I for my part confes, that there cometh not to my minde, wherby I could preciſely conclude yt owt of the ould Teſtament: So I am aſſured, that he is not able to proue, that which he ſaith. But that which the D. affirmeth ccp. 663.otherwhere, that it was onelyonly at Ieruſalem: is vtterly vntrue. For Ioſaphat at one tyme, ſet in Iudges in eueryevery vualled citye throvughovut the kingdome of Iuda: which of2. Chro. …9. 5. 8. 11.2 Chr 9:52 Chr 9:82 Chr 9:11 what ſort they were, namely, in part ciuil, in part eccleſiaſtical, appeareth by the Iudges placed in Ieruſalē. And to thē men had recours to, in matters of greater difficulty, according to the cauſes: if ciuil, to the ciuil, if eccleſiaſtical, to the eccleſiaſtical, iudgment. where owght not to be forgotten, the nūbre of cities in one onelyonly tribe (as it might be in york sheer) to the numbre of a hūdreth and twelue: leaſt that theIoſue ch. 15.Josh 15 reader, should meaſure the numbre of their cityes, with ours. So that where the Anſw. ſaith, that therewas but one Senate in al the twelue tribes: it is found that there were in one onelyonly tribe, at the leaſt, a hundreth ant twelue eccleſiaſtical Elderships. p. 47Vuhether it may be cōcluded owt of the nue Teſtament, that eueryevery ſynagog of the Iues had this Eldership, conſidering that the pollicy of the church now, was in this point taken from the Iues church, I leau it to the reader to iudg, of that which I hauehave alledged. wherevnto aideth the cuſtome of the Iues, vntounto this day: which in eueryevery of their ſynaguogues, hauehave their Elders: Likewiſe Ieromes teſtimony, of which it may be certeinly collected: that he eſtemed that the Iues had their Elders, in eueryevery Synagog. For, he aaAd Alg… ſiam quest. decim.sheweth that they choſe of the vuiſeſt in their cōpany, for gouernours: vuhich should aſvuel admonish thoſe that had any corporal polution, to abſteyn from the aſſemblies, as to reproue the breakers of the ceremonies of the Sabbat. now, ſeing ther was the ſame vſe of theſe admonitions and reproofes as wel in vplandish ſynaguoges, as in thoſe which were plāted in the cities: it foloweth neceſſarily, that there were Elders aſwel for them, as for the other. At the leaſt, the nue Teſtamēt in marking theſe Elders,MarK. 5. 2… Act. 13. 15. Act. 18. 8, 17.Mark 5:2Acts 13:15Acts 18:8Acts 18:17 which it calleth cheif of the Synagog, in diuers quarters: doeth manifeſtly ouerthrow the D. which ſaith, that they were onelyonly at Ieruſalē. vpō al which matter, appeareth how extremely bould yow are in your affirmatiōs: which beſide theſe two before mētioned, ſay alſo, that the Eldership was not alwaies, no not in perſecution. wherein, not to enter a nue field, for eueryevery light word yow caſt forth: what reaſon (I pray yow) cā yow aſsign, why ſometimes there should be an Eldership vnderunder pecſecutiō, and other ſome tymes none: cōſidering that yow imagin this Eldership, to be in place of a Chriſtian Magiſtrate. whereby, it muſt needes folow, that his ſeat being void in tyme of perſecution: it owght to be occupied by the Eldership, which yow fancy, to be his Lieftenāt. whether the D. pincheth theChap. 2. diuiſ. 1. p. 633. churches, where, with a Chriſtian Magiſtrate, the Eldership ſtil remayneth, which he here denieth: let the reader iudg of his former book, bbpag. 633. 639. 642. 656. 660.where he affirmeth yt iniurious to the Magiſtrat, and ful of confuſion, alſo that it can not, nor owght not to be as in the Apostles tymes &c.▪ yea let hym iudg of this diuiſion. For after that he graunteth to Princes, to commit their autority to the p. 48church if they list (then which there is nothing more vntrw) he addeth whether it be wel doen, I wil not determin. wherein I beſech yow mark firſt, what contraries he ſpeaketh. For he doeth determin preciſely, that ciuil Magiſtrates may commit their right and autority to theſe Elders, if they wil: and yet, he wil not determin whether it be wel doen or no. wheras if he would not hauehave determined, of the one, he should hauehave ſuſpended his iudgment, of the other: for thus he aſſureth them, they may doe that, whereof he wil make them no aſſurance, that it is wel doen. Secondly, it is to be obſerued, that where the queſtion was of the Bishops receiuing of ciuil autority from the Prince, he maketh it not onelyonly lawful, but conuenient, yea neceſſary that it should be deriued from the Prince to the Bishop: but here towardes the Eldership, he ſaith, yt can not be practiſed, withowt intollerable contentions and extreme confuſion. So that the Bishop, Archdeacons, and Deanes, which with vsus are the deepeſt churchminiſters, may exerciſe (yf the Prince wil commit yt vntounto them) euen the higheſt ciuil iuriſdiction, and that to the ſingular advancement of the church: but theſe Elders, whoſe office in the church is not ſuch, but that boeth they hauehave, and may folow ſome ciuil trade of lyfe, may not receiue that power of the Magiſtrate which he vntrwly affirmeth that they had in tyme of perſecution, on les al, by and by, fal vponupon heapes. In one and the ſame church, the Bishop, the Dean, the Archdeacon, and for a need, ſome of the Prebendaryes, may hauehave beſide their eccleſiaſtical iuriſdiction, ciuil autority: but theſe Elders, althowgh they were but two in numbre, may in no wiſe vſe any. This difference verely, riſeth not in the breadth of shoulders, wherby they are able to cary al this, and the Elders none: but vponupon the widenes of the throat, which as the graue, is neuer filled.

Thirdly, it is to be obſerued, that the D. which for his own profit, ſtretcheth the power of the Prince beyond al boundes: here, as yf he had to doe with a cheuerel ſcepter, draweth it in. For he giueth more liberty herein, vntounto the Magiſtrates of ſmal common wealthes: then vntounto monarches. For to them, he ſeemeth ſometime to leau yt at liberty, whether they wil communicate their autority vntounto theſe p. 49Elders, or retayn it with them ſelues: but vntounto kinges and Princes, he wil in no wiſe permit yt. Vuherein alſo, he is contrary to him ſelf: which in another place ſaith, aapag. 764.that the office of the ciuil Magiſtrate, may be committed vntounto whome ſoeuer it pleaſeth hym best to like of. If that be true, and this iuriſdiction of the Elders were (as he vntruly ſaith) belonging to the ciuil Magiſtrate: why might not the Prince, commit yt vntounto theſe Elders? as for his reaſon, that ſo eueryevery parish should be a kingdome: Diuiſ. 12. p. 643. Diuiſ. 2. & 3. pag 634.yt cometh to be anſwered, in another place.

To that I alledged of the neceſsity of the Eldership, becauſe the Paſtor can not hauehave his ey, in eueryevery corner of his parish &c. he anſwereth, an able Pastor, is able to doe al required of a Paſtor, which is no anſwer at al. For that is not the queſtion, but this, whether he be able to doe, whatſoeuer church gouernment belongeth to the wealth of his church: which becauſe he durſt not affirm, or affirming it, had nothing to proue yt, he slipped away after this ſort. And now that he vnderſtandeth, that this reaſon is confirmed by M. Peter Martyr: I truſt hereafter, he wil giuegive it ſome honeſter name, then my fancy.

To that I alledged, that if the Auncientes should not be vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate, yt vuould folovu that the lord should hauehave les care of his church vnderunder a Christian, then vnderunder an vnchriſtian Magistrate: he anſwereth, that the Chriſtian Magiſtrate is in place of the Eldership, but nether addeth reaſon him ſelf, nor once towcheth the reaſon which I browght, namely that yt vuas neuer lavuful for the church in perſecution, to appoint any that should enter vponupon any part of the ciuil Magistrates office. This alſo could not be a ſufficient recompence, in matters pertayning to the ſoul health, that for an Eldership in eueryevery church, they should receiue one Prince in a whole countrey. For one Prince, can not in the ſpiritual gouernment of the realm bring that to pas, which the Eldership in eueryevery church did before: althowgh he should doe nothing, but attend vponupon p. 50that. So that to make the Magiſtrates to ſuccede into the office of the Elders, and therein to doe al the duties appointed vntounto the Eldership in tymes paſt: is to charge the Magiſtrates with a thing vnpoſsible, and ſuch as muſt needes kyl their conſciences.

Thus, where the Chriſtian magiſtrate is giuen of god, to kepe the order which god hath ſet in his church: yow bring him in as a breaker and changer of the order, which god hath appointed by his holy Apoſtles. But the godly Chriſtian Magiſtrates may vnderſtand, that as nether our Sauior Chriſt, nor any wiſe and wel inſtructed myniſtery vnderunder him, wil meddle with any order or form of common wealth lawfully inſtituted of them, for the better gouernment of their people, but leau them as they finde them: So they owght to leau whole and vntowched, that order which Chriſt hath placed in his church. And as the An. ſaith truly otherwhere, that Christ came not to ouerthrow ciuil gouernmentes: euen ſo it isp. 647. as true, that god ſendeth not kinges to ouerthrow church gouernment, planted by Chriſt and his Apoſtles. Yea ſo much more abſurd is this later, then the firſt: by how much they owght to hauehave more firmity, which were ſet by the lord him ſelf, then which were by men. For what ſon of Adam shal preſume to alter that order, which the lord hym ſelf from heauen hath ſet, And euen ſo doeth the Apoſtle preciſely ſpeak of this office with others, that aa1. Cor. 12. 28.1 Cor 12:28god hath ſet it in the church. Yf it be ſaid, that he ſet alſo Prophetes and workers of miracles, which are now no more: it is true, they are now no more, but why are they not? Ys it, becauſe any man hath remoued them? no verely, but becauſe the lord him ſelf, hath withdrawen them. For if the lord had giuen euen vntounto theſe dayes, theſe giftes of healing and working of miracles &c. I think there is no man ſo extremely impudent, that would ſay, that the ciuile Magiſtrate might abolish or put them down. Beſide that, it is vntrue which he ſaith bbp. 659.otherwhere, that this office is placed amongest thoſe, which be temporal: for euen that p. 51next before yt, noteth the office of the Deacon, which is perpetual.

As for that he crieth owt and ſo oft repeateth, that, by this meanes, no more is giuen to the Christian Magistrate, then to the Turk, proceedeth onelyonly of a famyn of reaſons to anſwer, which driueth him to this vnrulynes: otherwiſe, he can not tel how the eſtablishment of this office, should ſpoil the2. Cor. 1. 13.2 Cor 1:13 Prince of her autority. S. Paul profeſſeth of him ſelf, that he vurote the ſame, that men red, that is to ſay ſyncerely, not pretending one thing and meaning another: but al this ialouſy, pretended for the Prince againſt the Eldership, is in deed for the Bishop. So that, albeit the name of the Magiſtrate be houlden owt, to draw this cauſe into hatered: yet the truth is, that yt is to eſtablish their own tyranny. For as towching autority or preheminence, there is nothing giuen, to be doen by the Eldership ioyntly with the Paſtor, in one onelyonly congregation: al which, and more to, the Bishop him ſelf alone, doeth not vndertake to execute in a whole dioceſe or prouince. Therfore, if the exerciſe of this ſpiritual iuriſdiction in the Eldership, ſpoil the Magiſtrate of his autority: then the Bishops, are the chief in this robbery.

Vuhere he asketh, how I shew owt of the ſcripture, that thoſe are the duties of the Elders, which I hauehave aſsigned. I anſwer, that forasmuch as S. Paul appointeth them gouernours of the church, togither with the teaching gouernours, placing the difference1. Tim. 5. 171 Tim 5:17 onelyonly in teaching, and conſequently in publik prayer and adminiſtration of ſacramentes, which are ioyned with yt, or comprehended vnderunder yt: that therfore, the reſt, remain commō betwene them, to be doen as wel of theſe, as of them.

That the place of S. Mathew, is not to be vnderſtandedDiuiſ. 4. p. 636. Math. 18.Matt 18 onelyonly of priuate offences: I hauehave aaIn the former part. p 66.before declared. your interpretation of tel the church, that is publikly reproue thoſe which, admonished priuately, repent not: is euil nurtured, breaking in withowt leau. where mark (good reader) how eaſy it is for the D. to write anſwers, which being preſſed p. 52giueth him ſelf this liberty: that hauing no key to open the dore, breaketh it open after this ſort. To interpret tel by reproue, might hauehave ſome colour, by that the general is ſome tyme put for the ſpecial: but that tel the church, should be, reproue the offender, hath a diſeaſe, that al the tropes and figures which I hauehave red of, are not able to cure. And me thincketh, that yow which accuſe others for making the ſcripture a noſe of wax: if yow wil not put of your shoes, at the leaſt yow should wipe them a litle cleaner, when yow enter into the lords Sanctuary. That which foloweth, is not a whit better.

For, after he ſaith that, by the church may be ment one onelyonly, ſo that he be in autority: which is not vnlike vntounto that, which the papiſtes ſay, that a man may appeal from the Councel, vntountoConcil. Tō. 4. Baſilienf. concil. the Pope. wherof, ſome of the papiſtes them ſelues (if he doe not repent) shal ſit in iudgment: which leauing vntounto the Pope the higheſt place in the church, hauehave notwithſtanding vponupon this place, preferred the iudgment of the Councel, to the Popes. But where I require ſome example of this monſtruous ſpeach, vuherby one is ſaid to be many, one membre a body, one alone a company: the D. is domb. where I shew further, that if one onelyonly should be vnderstood by the church, that then the going from thre to one, should not riſe but fal, not goe forvuard but bakvuard: he anſwereth, that to tel one which hath autority to correct the faut, is more then to tel twenty: as thowgh the complaint is made, to the end he should be corrected, and not that he should be admonished. For as for correction, other then by wordes, it owght not to be awarded, onles he refuſe to hear the church: ſo that here ſtil the proces is, from the admonition which is by many, to that which is by one. And if the Paſtor be he, that doeth firſt priuately admonish him, and afterward take two moe: by his anſwer, the Paſtor muſt from his own admonition in the preſence of one or two moe, take the matter to him ſelf, and admonish him ſelf alone.

He hauing thus dalied with the holy ſcripture, after confeſſeth p. 53that by the word church, are vnderſtood many: but thoſe owt of Chryſoſtome are (ſaith he) Prelates and Preſidētes: as thowgh S. Paul, did not alſo cal theſe Elders Preſidentes, which is al one1. Tim. 5. 171 Tim 5:17 with Prelates. Then he addeth, that the place is vnderstanded of the gouernment vnderunder the law, not of any rule which our Sauior Chriſt gaue, to gouern his church vnderunder the goſpel: euen as where our S. Christ biddeth, to leau the gift before the Altar: which ouerthroweth his other interpretation. And again owt of Muſculus, that it was but vntounto the tyme of the Chriſtian Magiſtrate: which ouerthroweth alſo this next before. But if this be ether the law gouernment, or the goſpel gouernment onelyonly, vntil the tyme of the Chriſtian Magiſtrate: then to admonish priuately him that offendeth, to take one or two, if he reſt not in the admonition, be alſo of the ſame ſort. For our Sauior Chriſt putteth them alike general, alike neceſſary, of like limitation of tyme: for he chayneth them one with another, by the link of his commandement, that if this way profit not, then the ſecond muſt folow, and the third after that.

Then alſo it foloweth, that the meanes to bring ſynners to repentance, ſerued onelyonly for the tyme of the law, and vnchriſtian Magiſtrates. For after that our Sau. Chriſt, had tawght how the lord deliteth in the return of the ſynner, and in the fyneding of the loſt shepe: he propoundeth this, as a principal mean, wherby he wil hauehave that browght to pas. But, let the D. shew, any light owt of the word of god, whereby it may appear, that certeyn of theſe commandementes are temporal, and certeyn perpetual, certeyn to ſerue for the tyme of the law, and an vnchriſtian Magiſtrate: if not, then the commandement of Chriſt remaineth, wherof nether he, nor none other can shew any countermandement. Beſide that it is abſurd, that it should be here declared, what order was vſed vnderunder the law, and not vnderunder the goſpel: when our Sav. Chriſt inſtructeth his Apoſtles, how to behaue them ſelues in the church, and ſpeaketh of themath. 18. 18▪ order, that should be in hys church, in tyme to come.

That alſo which he citeth owt of mathews, is flat againſt hym. For, althowgh our Sau. Chriſt vſeth maner of ſpeaches, p. 54drawen from the ſeruice of god, which, then in vſe, be not ſo now: yet the commandement he there giueth, vnderunder that kinde of ſpeach, is perpetual. And as, what ſoeuer is abrogated of that precept Mathew 5, is abrogated by the preſcript word of god, which teacheth vsus, that offring of calues vponupon the altar, and other ceremonial lawes are doen away: So, if he wil hauehave this ordinance of god abrogated, he muſt shew vsus ſome place of Scripture, where our Sau. Chriſt repealed yt. what we aſcribe vntounto the Chriſtian Magistrate, shal appear afterward.

To the place of aa1. Tim 6. …3.1 Tim 6:3Timothe, requiring a neceſſary obſeruation Diuiſ. 5 p. 637of thinges compriſed in that Epiſtle: he anſwereth firſt, that theſe Elders are not there compriſed, nor their office. I hauehave shewed, that boeth they and their office be there: which is the ſame with the Bishops, that onelyonly excepted, which I hauehave bbIn diuiſ. 3 of this chapter.before noted. Further in the word cc1. Tim. 3. 81 Tim 3:8Deacons (as yt is wel ddIn the booK of the diſcipline of England.obſerued) the Apoſtle comprehendeth boeth the Elders, and thoſe which had the almes to diſpoſe: which may appear, in that, deſcribing the qualities of the Deacons, he noteth there no ſpecial qualitie, of him that hath the order of the church is treaſure, but thoſe qualities onelyonly which are common as wel to the Elder, as to him that diſpoſed the church money.

After, he ſaith that thoſe wordes can not be extended, vntounto al the preceptes, firſt becauſe the office of widowes should be then neceſſary: But he doeth not conſider, that S. Paul ordeyneth them not ſimply, but vponupon condition. yf he had inſtituted the Eldership with condition, if he had ordeyned that office, rather for the mayntenance of the perſons them ſelues, then for the ſeruice of the church, if he had left ſo ſmal choiſe of thoſe to this office, as to that, namely that none might be choſen but poor, none but deſtitute of al friendes, none vnderunder the age of lx yeares: then he had ſaid ſomewhat. And euen now, the perpetuity of that commandement towching widowes, remayneth in that ſort it was giuen: that is vponupon cō dition. Then he ſaith, that ſo, Miniſters which hauehave ſuch infirmities as Timothe, should of neceſsite drink wyne. By wine, the Apoſtle meaneth, p. 55not onelyonly the blood of the grape, but ſtrong drink alſo, and what ſoeuer might be apt againſt Timothies infirmityes: And ſo it is a playn commandement, not onelyonly to Timothe, but to al miniſters in his caſe, that they should vſe ſuch remedies againſt their diſeaſes, wherby they might be more able, to doe their Miniſtery. Nether is it les, a perpetual commandement, to al Miniſters, becauſe al countryes hauehave not wyne: then the commandement of excommunication, becauſe al countreys hauehave not ſuch Publicanes, Math. 18.Matt 18as were in Iury, to make their patern of excommunication by.

Laſt of al, he bringeth Chryſoſtome and Caluin, which refer thoſe wordes vntounto Timothes office: which is to no purpoſe. For Timothe for his part (and in his place the Miniſter of the word) had to doe in al thoſe offices, as wel to ordeyn, as to reprehend and punish them, if they did not their duty: ſo that, in commaunding Timothe to execute his dutie, according to the tenure of that Epiſtle, he doeth playnly command the mayntenance of this office. whether the word, vuithovut ſpot, be referred vntounto Timothe, or vntounto the commandement, I leaue to the readers iudgment: So I doe the next diuiſion. In the next alſo, beſide Muſculus and Gualters iudgment, there is nothing ſauing an extreme, ether forgetfulnes, or that which is wors: in ſaying that he remembreth not to hauehave red any autor, that maketh mention of this Eldership. For if he had neuer red the autors them ſelues: yet he could hardly forget that owt of them: which aaIn the ende of the booK.I alledged to that purpoſe.

To the firſt reaſon, prouing that an Eldership is more Diuiſ. 8. p. 640.needful novu, then in the Apostles tymes, for that the Pastors novu are not of that ſufficiency to gouern al alone, as they vuere then: he anſwereth, that there be not alſo ſo ſufficient men to make an Eldership now, as there were then: which ſerueth, aſwel to proue that we should hauehave no Paſtors at al, as that there should be no Eldership, to ſupport the Paſtor. But how abſurd is it, that becauſe p. 56they can not giuegive ſo ful and plentiful aſsiſtance now, as the Elders in tymes paſt, therfore they muſt giuegive no aſiſtance at al. So that oneles he wil ſay, that none of the parish can doe any thing in the gouernment of the church, but the Paſtor alone: he muſt needes confes, that, that wchich may be, owght to be for ſupport of the Paſtor. his other anſwer, is aaIn this chap. diuiſ. 2. & 3. Diuiſ. 9. p. 641.before confuted.

Secondly yt was alledged, that S. Paul, ſo loeth to lay any vnneceſſary charge, vponupon the church: yet enioyned this miniſtery vntounto the poor and perſecuted churches. The ſtrēght of which reaſon lyeth in this, that ſome contributiō vuas neceſſary to their mayntenance then: vuhere as novu in tyme of peace, this ministery, may be vuithovut al charges vntounto the church. To thys, in ſted of anſwer, he frameth other argumentes of his own, wherewith he dalieth, skowreth vp his ould ſtuf of widowes, and the ciuil Magiſtrate, before anſwered, alledgeth the pouerty of ſome parishes, the vnwillingnes of other ſome to contribute: which is a meer trifling. For ſeing, the pouerty of the churches could not exempt them from this charge, when they were much poorer…. Tim. 5., as appeareth by S. Paul, ſeing alſo yt may be now withowt the charge of the church, as appeareth by the practiſe of the churches, which are ſo gouerned in theſe dayes, where there is not a penny alowed to any Elder: ether he owght to confute this, or blush to ſet down that for anſwer: yet he is not afraid bbpag 657.after to put yt, for a reaſon against the Eldership. whervnto may be added, that the churches in perſecution, nether thoſe now, nor other in tymes paſt, could hauehave ſuch helpes of howſes or landes, appropriated to the fineding of their miniſtery, as the churches with vsus: but were driuen to pay for al of their own purs. And not that onelyonly, but cōſtreyned to pay their tythes, or other exactions, to the Idolatrous prieſthood, of that place where they abode: which we are freedDiuiſ. 10. p. 641. from, vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate.

To the third reaſon, that the declyning of a popular rule, p. 57or that of the best, hath not ſo eaſy redres vnderunder a Tyrant, as vnderunder a Chriſtian magiſtrate: he ſaith, men in perſecution are not deſirous of honor &c. which (in a maner) is as much to ſay, as men in perſecution, ceas to be men, and is vntrue, as appeareth boeth in the aaGal. 1. 17. Phili. 2. 21. Ioh. 3. 9.Gal 1:17John 3:9Apoſtles tymes, and after, as I hauehave bbIn the former part of this booK p. 500.shewed. Secondly, he anſwereth, that the gouernours thē, were but during the pleaſure of ſuch as ppointed them, wherof he bringeth no profe at al, and is likewiſe vntrue, conſidering, that they were choſen to remayn ſo long in their office as they behaued them ſelues vnblamably: or at the leaſt, vntil a certeyn term, before which they could not by any equity, but vponupon their faut, or their own deſire, be put owt. In the firſt of which two caſes, they are ſomewhere now, as they were then and in the later, they may if it ſeme expedient, euen now, as wel as then: ſo that here is no difference at al, betwene thoſe, and theſe tymes. Nether doeth he conſider, that the gouernours, being corrupt, the greateſt part of the church, is commonly led away with them: In which caſe, the church is withowt remedy vnderunder perſecution, when notwithſtanding she hath an eaſy remedy, vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate.

Thirdly he ſaith, that, this graunted, the argument foloweth not: reaſon he sheweth none, but open askinges of that in queſtion. And whether it folow wel, that for ſo much as there ys les inconuenience, in the gouernment of the Eldership vnderunder a Chriſtian magistrate, then vnderunder a Tyrant: therfore it may be better vnderunder hym, then vnderunder a Tyrāt, let al the world iudg. his owtcourſes, as alſo his open vntruth, that I confes the church gouernment to be a monarchy, I pas by: I onelyonly ſaid, that it is a monarchy, in reſpect of our Sau. Chriſt, which is nothing to that purpoſe, he alledgeth yt for.

In the fourth, that the Elders could not then meet vuithovut Diuiſ. 11. p. 642.danger, vuhich they may doe novu, and therfore, that the gouernment by one onelyonly, as of the Bishop, had bene p. 58(if euer, then most conuenient: he anſwereth, that it was not ſo dangerous, which is contrary to al reaſon, and experience. Then he ſaith, the church must be ſubiect to the ciuil magistrate: whereby (as appeareth boeth in this diuiſion and in the next) he meaneth nothing els, but that yt owght to allow of that church gouernment, which the Magiſtrate wil appoint, althowgh yt be diuers from the Apoſtles, which is a fat begging of that in queſtion. his firſt and third anſwers alſo, towch not the cauſe at al.

Vuhere againſt his diſtinction, that this gouernment of Elders Diuiſ 12 p. 643.may be in a Cytie, but not in a Realm, I alledged, that it hath had place, by his ovun confeſſion, in a vuhole Realm: he ſaith, that that is true, where eueryevery church is, as yt were, within yt ſelf a common wealth, as in Fraunce and other perſecuted churches. wherein he doeth shameful iniury, to al thoſe churches of god, and to the Apoſtles them ſelues which vſed that order: in aſcribing vntounto them, as thowgh they made new common wealthes, or liued not vnderunder the ſame form of ciuil gouernment, were not obedient vntounto the ſame ciuil lawes, and to the ſame Magiſtrates, which the Idolatres them ſelues were. what one, ether action, or property can yow aſsign in an Eldership, vnderunder a kingdome, which should cauſe this rent: that there should be ſo many common wealthes, and ſo many kingdomes, as there are Elderships? why alſo doeth this Eldership make a greater rent, in a monarchy where one gouerneth: then in a common wealth, where many gouern. If yow think therfore, becauſe a monarchy is greater, then a common wealth, wherby there muſt be moe Elderships in the one, then in the other: beſide that the argument is nawght, that alſo wherevpon it is grounded, is vntrue. For, there are common wealthes, where many rule, greater then the monarchies, where one onelyonly gouerneth: as Rome in tymes paſt, Venys within our remembrāce, and ſuch like.

Vuhere I alledged alſo, that, by his reaſon, a monarchy should not be good in the common vuealth, becauſe the p. 59gouernment of one is good in a hovuſhould, &c. He anſwereth, that the autority of the Master of the howshould, derogateth not from the Princes, but the Eldership doeth: which is his accuſtomed beggery. where, in deed, the autority of a Maſter of a howshould, approcheth nerer vntounto the kinde of gouernment of the Magiſtrate, as that which hath, corporal punishment annexed vntounto yt: then the autority of the Eldership, which meddleth not that way.

And becauſe I am entred into that example, I would know of hym, which wil hauehave other gouernmentes, fashioned to the form of gouernment of the common wealth: whether in a common wealth, where many hauehave equal autority, the magiſtrate may ordeyn, that the father of the houshould, shal not rule his own hows alone, or be cheif in yt, but shal hauehave his wife of like autority, or ſome of his ſeruantes quarter Maſter. If he be ashamed of this, then he ſeeth that the wal of al his defence, againſt the diſcipline of the church, aſwel in this cauſe, as in diuers other, pauncheth: ſo that it is not able to abide, the vueight of a fox. For thus, there is not onelyonly (as he obiecteth) a ſeueral gouernment in eueryevery Town: but in eueryevery priuat hows. And if the Maſter of the houshould may, and owght to retein his autority withowt preiudice of the Magiſtrate: why may it not be ſo, in the gouernment of the church.

Vuhat wil he further ſay, to the Scholemaſter, which he otherwhere affirmeth to be an Eccleſiastical officer: may there not be, ether two in one Schole, vnderunder a Prince, or one in one Schole vnderunder a common wealth where many hauehave like autority, oneles the common wealth be therby mangled, and the magiſtrates autority empaired? But of this matter, I hauehave alſo ſpoken aaIn the former part of this booK. pag. 604.otherwhere. Howbeit, whereas the D. alowing of this Eldership in a common wealth, can not abide it in a monarchy: I wil ſay this further, that if there were any daunger to a common wealth, by this Eldership, it should be greater to the ſmale common wealthes, then to great monarchies: conſidering that they, p. 60should not be able, ſo wel to repres the Eldership ouerreaching and goeing beyond their bowndes. And if the Elders hips autority, belong vntounto the magiſtrate (as he ſaith): then by how much, theſe magiſtrates hauehave les power, and fewer prerogatiues ouer their peoples, then the monarches ouer their ſubiectes, by ſo much hauehave they more need, then the other, to kepe al in their own hand.

VponUpon his own confeſsion, that there be more diſordered perſons Diuiſ. 13. p. 643.now, then in tyme of perſecutiō: I concluded that there needeth ſo much more aſiſtance, for the Pastor to finde them ovut, to iudg of the quality of the faut, and to correct them with cenſures of the church. Herevnto he anſwereth, that it is better doen by the Magiſtrate, and by corporal punishment: which is aadiuiſ. 2. an 3. of this chapter.before anſwered, althowgh yt be vnworthy anſwer, conſidering that albeit the bodily punishment, were more apt to reform thinges amis: yet thereof foloweth not, but that boeth the ciuil punishment, and eccleſiaſtical togither, wil doe more then the ciuil punishment alone.

I would alſo know, why the Paſtor owght not, to cary, euen priuate offences great or ſmale, vntounto the Magiſtrate: if it be ſo, that this eccleſiaſtical autority, be eſcheted to him. As for that he alledgeth owt of Gualter, that men wil not ſet a ſtraw by the autority of the Eldership: it ſerueth aſwel againſt the eccleſiaſtical cenſures of al Paſtors, and of our Bishops, as againſt the Elders: and more againſt them, then againſt theſe. For ſomuch as, if they ſet not a ſtraw by the Elders and Paſtor togither iointly, they wil much les eſteme the Paſtors or Bishops alone. And if they ſet nothing by it, whē it is countenāced by the ciuil magiſtrate: they wil much more ſet them at nawght in perſecution, when for the contempt of yt, there is not onelyonly no corporal punishment, but a reward at the handes of the Tyrants. The bare names of ſuſpenſions and excommunications, ſtrike a fear into the heartes of the people: whych notwithſtanding (throwgh an horrible abuſe of them, for eueryevery trifling money matter) are not to be feared: according to the bbprou. 26. 2.wiſe mans ſaying, acauſeles curs, p. 61shal not come, but flyeth avuay as the sparovu or ſvualovu.

Seing then thes fray bugges, no more to be eſtemed, as towching the conſcience, or further then they empty the purs, then the braying of an Aſſe, ſtrike ſuche a fear: with what power, would the lord accompany them, when they be executed according to his inſtitutiō. for further anſwer, thelibr. de curanim. reader may hauehave recours vntounto M. Bucer: who confuteth this very obiection, of contempt of the churchis cenſures. And this voice tendeth, aſwel to the ſubuerſion of al eccleſiaſtical cenſures, for euer hereafter: as to the vtter condemning of that, which was vſed by the Apoſtles heretofore.

Althowgh, if it be the ordinance of god, this is no reaſon againſt yt: conſidering that the owtrage of men, can not put the lord to ſilence, or make his ordinance to giuegive place. In the next, where, vponupon his anſwer, I conclude, that ether vue muſt hauehave no Pastor at al (vuhich is abſurd,) or els an Eldership in as many places, as ſufficient men may be gotten: he anſwereth nothing, beſide repetitions, and demaundes of that in queſtion.

In the next, where is proued that the hardnes or apparant impoſsibility may not be conſidered, vuhen there is a commandement to doe any thing: he letteth al that defence goe to the ground, wherein notwithſtanding he placed great force. Let him therfore ſtrike owt that obiection, or if he moue further debate herein, let him not be ashamed, to return bak, and take his work before hym. And for further anſwer thereunto, let hym loke aali. de curanim.M. Bucer: who confuteth alſo this obiection. where he excepteth, that it is not commaunded, thereof let the reader iudg, of that which hath bene written. Althowgh it bbIn the former part. p. 156.hath bene shewed, that the example of the Apoſtles, and general practiſe of the churches vnderunder their gouernment: euen withowt a commandement, draweth a neceſsity.

Then he ſaith, that if it were▪ yet it were but a temporal commandement, p. 62as the widowes, the eating of blud, and washing of feet. Of the widowes, hath bene anſwered, the decree of the blud, was neuer a ſimple prohibition, after our Sau. Chriſt (whoſe blud that did aa…eu. 17. 11shadow) had finished his oblation: but onelyonly to the ſupport of the Iues. So that euen then, when that decree was made, the faithful, boeth of the Iues or Gentiles, might hauehave eat yt: ſo they did yt withowt offence of thoſe which were weak. And if there were now any Iue weak in faith, whom we should by eating of blud, driue from the goſpel: I dowt not, but that vntil he be fully inſtructed of the liberty I hauehave in Chriſt, I owght to vſe the ſame charitable ſupport towardes him. And this appeareth manifeſtly, boeth in bbAct. 15. 21.Acts 15:21the ſame, and other places: where cc1. Cor. 6. 12. et 10. 25 Rom. 14. 141 Cor 6:12Rom 14:14S. Paul which gaue owt that decree to be kept, teacheth generally the free vſe of al meates, ſo yt be withowt offence.

As for the washing of feet, commanded vntounto the Apoſtles, it is nothing but a trope or borowed ſpeach: wherby our Sau. Chriſt willeth them, and, in them, vsus al, not for a tyme, but to the end of the world, that, for help one of an other, eche should ſubmit him ſelf to other, euen vntounto the doeing of the baſeſt offices. which may appear, in that he placeth ddIoh. 13. 17.John 13:17perfect bleſſednes in the obediens to that commandement: which he would neuer hauehave doen, in the washing of the feet: So that this commandement, might wel be of them (as of vsus) fulfilled, withowt that particular actiō, of washing eche anothers feet.

But here obſerue, I pray yow, how dangerously yow behaue your ſelf, in reſpect of the common Aduerſary. ee1. Tract. 3. chap. 2. diuiſ.Before yow hauehave made vsus thinges neceſſary to obſerue, and that as of the Apoſtles autority, which were neuer written, but as yow would make vsus beleue, left by tradition: here, yow bear vsus in hand of commandementes (I know not how many) written, not neceſſary to be obſerued, but onelyonly to laſt, for a tyme. yf vnwritten traditions be perpetual, and written cō mandementes be not: what wanteth to the vtter banishment of al truth, and ſetling of al falshood in the church of god. For as yow may except againſt this, ſo may other againſt any commandement of the Apoſtles: whereas the autority p. 63of god in them, once being shewed, ether men owght to shew ſome place, wherby that is called bak, or els let yt ſtand, in that autority it was firſt ſet in, of the lord.

To that I alledged, that god is preſent in his church, Diuiſ. 16. p. 645. 1. Sam. 10.1 Sam 10vuith the riches of his spirit, in knovuledg, vuiſdome, &c. and especially vuith thoſe lavufully called vntounto office, cōfirming it by the exāple of Saul: he anſwereth, the church is ſometime withowt good Pastor, or good gouernour, as in Elias tyme: which is vntrue: for there were a aa1. King. 18. 13.1 Kgs 18:13hundreth prophetes, kept of one man alone. Then he ſaith, that it is Anabaptistical, vponupon a miraculous change, and that of one, to make a general rule: But yt is his great faut, not to know, that the miracles wrought vponupon certein, hauehave a general doctrine, and ſerue to the confirmation of our faith, in al our neceſsities. As the feeding of the people of god in the deſert with man, &c. ſerueth to this: that althowgh, the ordinary meanes of norishment fail,Deut. 8. 3. Math. 4. 4.Deut 8:3Matt 4:4 yet that the lord wil otherwiſe prouide for vsus: the feeding of the people in the deſert, by our Sau. Chriſt to this, that thoſe which ſeek the kingdome of heauen, shal hauehave al other thinges caſt vntounto them.

Yf I had giuen hope, of the aſsiſtance of god, in thinges taken in hand withowt a calling, or in a calling, withowt vſing the lawful meanes, which god putteth in our handes, then yt had bene Anabaptiſtical: but to aſſure the church of the aſsiſtance of god, in goeing abowt that, which I hould for commanded of hym, when yt aſſaieth al lawful meanes it can, ys more skilful diuinity, then yow can ſtayn with al the skil yow hauehave. I could hauehave browght other examples of Dauid, Salomon &c. but that one of Saul, was more preſsing, the force whereof noted by me, yow clean pas by.

Nether hath the lord doen this, in certain particular perſons: but generally, in his whole church. For when he would make his tabernacle, which was a figure of the church, he commanded an exquiſite workmanship in yt. where, albeit there was nothing more gros and rude then the Iſraelites, p. 64as thoſe which had bene many yeares houlden in vile slauery, occupied in clay and dirt, and al other kinde of drudgery: yet the lord gaue numbers of ſuch dexterity, in workingEx. 31. 1. 6. and. 36. 1.Exod 31:1Exod 31:6Exod 36:1 al kinde of broidery, and riche workes, as if they had bene browght vp in al liberal exerciſe, and norished as Princes children.

Moreouer, when as the lord furnished vntounto the church vnderunder the law, able men for this function, notwithſtanding he vſed not that larges toward yt, which he doeth now towards vsus: they are to iniurious vntounto the grace of god, towardes the church now, which, vnderunder pretence of want of able men, would driue this order owt of yt. In the city of Athenes (as Tertullian reporteth) children ſpake, vuhen they lib. de anima.vuere but a monethmonth ould: and shal we think, that in Ieruſalem, which the lord wil hauehave to be the beauty of the world, and which he hath ſet vponupon a ſtage, that in yt he might, as it were, make a shew of al his riches, shal we think (I ſay) that men of 30 and 40 yeares, shal be al ſuch babes, that they shal not be able to giuegive any iudgment of the lawes of that city, whereof they hauehave bene ſo long Burgeſſes. Ad alſo, that yow, to giuegive the Paſtor a paſport, to be away from his charge, ſay that there may be diuers found in his abſence, able to anſwer al the pag. 240.dowtes, that a dowtful and turmoiled conſcience can miniſter: which verely althowgh it be not the ſame, yet is a rarer gift, then is neceſſarily required, of an Elder of the church, ſuch as we require.

To that I alledged, that the common vuealth gouernment, Diuiſ. 17. p. 646.must be framed vntounto the church, and not the church gouernment vntounto the common vuealth, as the hanginges to the hovus, and not the hous to the hanginges: he anſwereth, as thowgh I had ment, that the form, of the gouernment must be changed, and made the ſame with the form of the church gouernment: which is an open wreſting of my wordes, ſeing al know, that to be framed according to another thing, is not al one as to be made the ſame with yt: oneles he that commandeth p. 65his hanginges to be framed to his hows, commandeth that his hows and hanginges should be made the ſame, or that the Maſter which biddeth his ſeruant frame him ſelf to him, biddeth hym to giuegive commandement for commandemēt, chek for chek, blow for blow.

Therfore, my meaning could not be ſuch, but it was as it is, which I alſo expounded in the example of the Prince, the principal part of the common wealth: that if there vuere any cuſtome, prerogatiue, or pomp in the common vuealth, before the Prince ioyned him ſelf to the church, contrary to the order of a church vuel eſtablished, that that should be corrected.

And if I had had any ſuch meaning, as he ſurmiſeth, yet our common wealth could hauehave receiued no ſuch change by this: conſidering that I had boeth declared my liking of yt, and shewed how the form thereof, reſembleth the form of the church gouernment. wherby alſo appeareth, what ap. 180. of his booK. shameful slaunder it is, which he ſurmiſeth of me, that I would hauehave Princes throw down their crownes, before the Seniors of the church &c. which I preciſely preuented with plain wordes, becauſe I knw with whom I had to doe. Albeit, that Princes should be excepted frō eccleſiaſtical diſcipline, and namely from excommunication, as he here and aapag. 657.otherwhere ſignifieth: I vtterly mislike.

Now he hath left the point of his slaunderous ſpeach in me, in his anſwer to my argumentes, as a bee which hath loſt her ſting: he is altogither vnprofitable. For vntounto the ſimilitude of the hows and hanginges, he ſaith, that it proueth yt not: but reaſon he sheweth none. vntounto that alſo, that the church vuas before the common vuealth, and therfore that yt should ſerue the church, and not the church yt: he ſaith, the argument foloweth not, but he ſaith yt onelyonly. whereas, if the church and commō wealth were otherwiſe equal, which can not be, one onelyonly reſpecting the lyfe to come, the other the cō modityes of this lyfe: yet hauing this preeminence aboue p. 66yt, that it was before yt, it muſt needes be better then yt, and conſequently owght rather to be ſerued of yt, then to ſerue yt. the aa1. Tim. 2. ….1 Tim 2Apoſtle alſo vſeth the ſame reaſon, to proue that the woman is ſubiect to the man.

To that I alledged, that the church is the foundatiō of the vuorld, and therfore the common wealth, builded vponupon yt, muſt be framed vntounto yt: he ſaith that yt is obſcure &c. But it is for wāt of light in hym ſelf, for otherwiſe, the thing is clear. And to leau Salomons prouerb, which Rabbi Leui Ben GerſonProu. 10. 25Prov 10:25 doeth ſo interpret, and whereof in deed the ſens may wel be, that where the wicked are caried away with the tempeſt, the iuſt not onelyonly ſtand faſt, but be the cauſe why the world ſtandeth: I ſay to leau that, S. Peter playnly confirmeth, that the cauſe why this world endureth, is for that the ful2. Pet. 3. 9.2 Pet 3:9 number of the elect is not yet gathered: ſo that, as ſone as they are aſſembled by the miniſtery of the church, there shal be forthwith an end of the world. As for that he bringeth againſt this, yt is vnworthy the reherſal: for of the thre firſt, he can conclude nothing, and his laſt anſwer, is no better. For yt talketh of a change of that, which is laid vponupon the foundatiō, wherunto the common wealth is likened, and is that which I affirm: but of changing the foundation, wherunto the churchIn the first diuiſion of this chap and diui. 4 Diui. 20. p. 650. is compared, not a word. the two next diuiſions be anſwered.

Here, he preſſeth that, which he inferreth of the Admo▪ that if the rule of moe in the church, be better then of one, becauſe it is eaſier to turn one then a company from truth and equity: it should therfore folow, that the moe that gouern, the better it should be, which he hath now mended, by putting for moe, moe good men, nothwithſtāding that this alſo is but ſophiſtry. For by the ſame form of reaſoning, it should folow, that becauſe two bittes of meat norish more thē one? therfore the more a mā eateth, the more he shal be norished. he should therefore vnderſtand, that as there is in this gouernment a defect, ſo there is an exces, and betwene boeth a mean, vuhich foreign.is to be houlden. and that as the comodity of hauing the p. 67church iudgmentes, handled by a company, is to be ſowght after: ſo the inconuenience and confuſion, of aſſembling a great multitude for eueryevery eccleſiaſtical caſe that may befal, is to be avoided. Beſide, that it is not enowgh, that they which should gouern be good mē: oneles they be of greater counſail and iudgment then the reſt of the body: of which ſort, when he wil not affourd vsus any iuſt numbre, he might wel hauehave ſpared this obiection.

Yf it were greatly to the matter, it were eaſy to shew,Arist. Eth. 8. lib ca. 10 Ariſt. Rhet. ad Theod. 1. lib. moe lavuful formes of common vuealths thē three. Likewiſe, that althowgh commō wealthes hauehave their names, of that which beareth the cheif ſway: yet that they are, to their profit, tēpered and mixed one with another, ſingularly the monarchy. This is to be ſeen namely in our land, where to the paſsing of diuers thinges: the conſent of the Parliamēt is ſo required, as that withowt yt, thoſe matters can not pas. The next is aaIn the former part. pag 411. Diuiſ 22. and 23. pag 651.already partly, and partly commeth after to be anſwered.

Here, he denieth moſt shamefully, that he alledged Ambroſe, to proue, that Seniors owght not to be vnderunder a Chriſtian Prince. For, boeth the ſentence immediatly going before and folowing after, driue thereunto: yea and that he affirmeth vponupon confidēce of Ambroſe ſaying onelyonly, for other proof he hath not. It is therfore to great bouldnes, that he asketh me, why I gathered the tyme betwene Phillip and Ambroſe,

Then he denieth, that the Eldership florished in Conſtantines tyme: but he is much to blame. For the Centuries, wherin he hath bene raking ſo often, muſt needes hauehave tould hym: that the ſame orders and functions of the church, were in that tyme which were before. And it is manifeſt, that the churches were gouerned vnderunder hym, as before, by Bishops Elders and Deacons: by that which is recited of an infinite number Euſeb. 2. li. de vita Cō ſtan.of Elders and Deacons, vuhich came to the Councel of Nice, vuith the 250 Bishops. moreouer, yt being before declared, and in part confeſſed by him, that this gouernment was before Conſtantines tyme: if he be not able to shew that Conſtantin changed yt, the ſame muſt be preſumed.

p. 68After, not denying but that it might be vnderunder ſome Chriſtian Prince, he ſaith, that it is not the queſtion, whether it may be, but whether it owght to be: which, how vntrue it is, let the reader iudg of that I hauehave aadiuiſ. 1. p. 633. Diui. 24. p. 652. Ier. 2. lib. in Iſ.Jer 2before noted.

To Ierom that ſaith, that the Chriſtian church hath her Eldership, he anſwereth they were Ministers of the word and Sacramentes: his reaſon, becauſe they were ſuch as S. Paul ſpeaketh of vntounto Timothe, maketh for vsus, which hauehave shewed that S. Paul ſpeaketh there of Elders, that gouern onelyonly. which may be better vnderſtanded, in that Ierom compareth them with the Eldership of the Iues: which was, as hath ^b appeared,Diuiſ. 8. p. 633. a ſeueral order from the Prieſtes and Scribes, that interpreted the law, and offered the ſacrifices. Duarenus alſo helpeth him not, rather he maketh againſt him. For, in that he ſaith, that the Canons ſucceded into the place of the Elders: he declareth, that the Canons are of another order then they were. As when Ierome ſaith that the Bishops, ſucceded vntounto the Apoſtles: he meaneth not, that the Bishops are of the ſame degre and order of miniſtery, with the Apoſtles. the next I leau to the readers iudgment.

VntoUnto Ambroſe he anſwereth: yf he misliked the abrogating Diuiſ. 26. p. 653.of this Seignory, why did he not labour to reſtore yt. That he misliked yt, is manifeſt, when he condemneth the Ministers of the vuord of negligence, for ſuffering it to vuear ovut of the church: or rather of pride, vuhilest they onelyonly vuould ſeme to be ſome vuhat. he labored alſo in part to reſtore yt, in that he reprehended the abolishing of yt. whether he did further labour or no, is not expreſſed, the beſt is to be ſuppoſed: which is that, to his power, he endeuored to ſet in that, theM. Bucerin lib. de rat. can. exam▪ alledgeth this place of Ambroſe to the ſame purpoſe vue doe. want whereof he condemneth: But Ambroſe was no lord Bishop, that he could doe in the church, whatſoeuer he deſired. his extreme bouldnes in denying, that ether he was abuſed, or would hauehave abuſed other, let the reader iudg of: alſo in that he ſaith, Ambroſe maketh nothing for our cauſe, to whoſe iudgmēt I alſo leau the next diuiſion.

p. 69Yf he denie, that church officers which hādle church matters,Diuiſ. 28. p. 654. Heb. 13. 17.Heb 13:17 and vuatch ouer the ſovules of mē, be eccleſiaſtical officers: then let hym deny alſo, that two and two make fower. But ſo gentilmen and handycraftes mē, should be eccleſiaſtical perſons: why not? if they be choſen thereto. were S. Paul and Iſay the Prophet no eccleſiaſtical perſons: becauſe one was a Tentmaker, the other of the kinges ſtok. Nether occupations nor dignities hauehave any ſuch mark of vncleannes, or profanation, that they may not be coupled with the church miniſtery: when the miniſtery is ſuch, as togither with their profeſsions, they may alſo execute yt: in which kinde is the Eldership of the church. I omit, that the D. hath here patched togither a ſentence of M. Caluin before anſwered, and another of M. Beza:1. Chap. 1. diuiſ. which, in that ſens he pretendeth them, are quite contrary one to another. yt is therfore meruail, if he can make of them one vniform, and euen anſwer.

Now he hath ranged and roued, almoſt in this whole diſputation:Chap. 3. p. 656. he muſt hauehave leau to run bak the way he came, to ſee whether he hath let any of his peeces fal. And firſt, good reader, he dasheth the in the face, with two open vntruthes, in the forehead of this chapter. For the order of the church propounded by vsus, is vniform, and ſtanding, as it is left vsus in the word of god: and not as he ſurmiſeth, varying according to the numbre of the churches. Alſo for ceremonies variable by circunſtance, it is frankly confeſſed: that they owght to be determyned of, by aduiſe of the church Synod, aſſembled eſpecially of the flower and moſt ſufficient of the eccleſtical gouernours, ſent by conſent of the reſt, if al (as yt happeneth) can not be coueniently there.

Secondly, it is nether affirmed, nor euer practiſed in any church where this order is, or hath bene vſed: that he that is choſen may not refuſe yt. So that, if there be any that thinketh his honour ſtayned, in being ioyned in counſail of church matters with poor men, when there ether are not, or are not enow of others: he hath not to complain, ſeing he is at his choiſe. Albeit, if any man should be ſo myneded, to think skorn to hear the ſentence of a poor man, in that he is a poor p. 70mā: let the ſame know, that he aaPro. 17. 5.Prov 17:5reprocheth god that made hym poor. And if he be lawfully appointed, to this office: thē he doeth not disdain the man, but bbMat. 18. 18Matt 18:18Chriſt hym ſelf. Therfore, if he hauehave any fear of god before his eyes: he wil from hence forth be ashamed to vſe this for a reaſon. Beſide that, he thus ouerthroweth the high court of Parliament: where, with the nobility, are ioyned in conſultation the commons of the Realm: where alſo the eſtates, being vnequal, the voices notwithſtanding are equal. I omit, how that if there were any inconuenience in this, that the ſentence of the Paſtor and other not ſo rich or ſo noble, should weigh down the ſentence of that noble man he ſpeaketh of: yet him ſelf hath deliuered vsus of yt, which telleth vsus, that the lord of the town, or ſome other of countenance pag. 136.wil lead away the rest of the church: how much more then, shal he be able to lead away two or thre? Thus he plaieth on boeth handes: for there he pincheth at the nobility, and here he pretendeth, as if he were tender ouer their honour.

His third reaſon is anſwered aaCha. 2. diuiſ. 9.before: likewiſe his bbCha 2. diuiſ. 3. & 17.fourth: his ccCha. 1. diuiſ. 6 & 7.fift: his ddCha. 2. diui. 2. and 3.ſixt, and ^a ſeuēth. As for the eight, of partial affectiō and contentions which would enſue: it is plentifully anſwered, ffIn the former part of this booK. pag. 2 9. 134. 147. 288. 227.in the queſtion of the church election. For if theſe be friuolous reaſons againſt thoſe ecclehaſtical actions, where the whole church hath intereſt: much more are they, againſt the aſſemblies of thre or fower onelyonly, and thoſe of the choiſeſt. thee Cha. 2. deuiſ. 1. ninth is alſo ggChap. 2. diuiſ 13.anſwered.

The tenth, that it would be to great extremity to punish for one faut twiſe: is a fals principle, taken from the Pelagian herefy. For the Magiſtrate may appoint fower kinde of punishmē tes, for one faut, if he think good, to be executed at diuers tymes: ſo that they altogither and ioyntly, exceed not the quantity of the faut. And, by his reaſon, the Magiſtrate shal be shut owt, from his right of punishyng ſyn: if it fal owt, that the lord by ſome punishment laid vponupon the offender, preuent the Magiſtrates punishment, eſpecially when the punishment is in ſuch ſort, that it may appear that yt was ſent for that ſpecial faut: for examples ſake, if of dronkennes, he fal into ſome ſiknes: na, thus the lordes ſword, is wrung owt of his hand. For nether may he punish thoſe fautes, which the Magiſtrate punished before: and if he punish a man in this life, he hath bound his handes, for punishing him in the world to come. For in deed the church diſcipline, is the punishment, or rather the correction of the lord: in a far other kinde, and to an other end, then the ciuil punishment. But I hauehave shewed, that boeth theſeIn the former part of this booK. pag. 3. were practiſed amongeſt the people of god, for one and the ſame faut. And is not this, in the Apoſtles, to condemn the holy goſt him ſelf? For if it be true, which he ſaith, when one had ſtollen, or committed adultery, it had not bene lawful for them to hauehave vſed the eccleſiaſtical cenſure, leaſt the offender being after apprehended, and punished according to the lawes of the common wealth where he liued, should thereby hauehave bene wronged. Beſide that, the D. accuſeth al our Bishops, which for diuers cauſes punishable by the lawes of the Realm, ſend forth their excommunications: yea al the elder churches, which did not leau to proceed in eccleſiaſtical cenſures againſt thoſe, whom the heathen Princes had iuſtly punished. But hereof the reader may know further in M. Caluins aa4. booK. chap. 11. 5. 1. 2…. 4.inſtitutions: alſo in M. bblib. de cura animar.Bucer, who praeciſely cōfuteth them which ſay, that the punishment by the ciuil Magiſtrate is ſufficient.

His eleuenth, that alterations are dangerous: is vnworthy anſwer. For when yt hath bene shewed, that ceremonies otherwiſe in different, owght when they breed offence to be changed: how much more, owght thoſe to be chāged, which are shewed to be cōtrary to the inſtitutiō of god. And nether this, nor the next clauſe in thys eleuēth article, nor diuers other allegatiōs in this chapter, hauehave ſo much as a countenāce of reaſon: vnles it be firſt graunted vntounto the D. which is the principal queſtiō, that is to fay, that the Eldership of the church is not cōmaunded of the lord. his two other reaſons in this article, are boeth often repeated, and vtterly vntrue: there hauing bene neuer any Chriſtiā Prince that vſed the ſpiritual ſword, which onelyonly is giuē to the Eldership, nether any noble mā or gentilmā which in our lād vſeth this kinde of correction, p. 72but onelyonly the Bishop, which vſurpeth yt, and abuſeth yt. I omit his often ieſting, at the Paſtor, by calling him diuers tymes in contempt, Maſter Paſtor: which the Angels them ſelues dare not doe: when as him ſelf can not deny, but to hauehave a Paſtor in eueryevery cōgregation, is the ordinance of god. If men wil not look to ſuch diſorders: I dowt not, but the lord wil lay to his hand.

The firſt reaſon, to proue no certeyn kinde of church gouernmēt Chap. 4. p. 658.apointed, is anſwered aa1. Chap.before: likewiſe the bb2. Cha. diuiſ. 2. and 3ſecond and third: the fourth is a gros asking of that in queſtion. In the fift M. Caluins and M. Bezas firſt and laſt ſentences, are violently drawen from their meaning: as hath bene ccIn the former part. of this booK p. 80. and. 134. &c.shewed. The middle ſentence, beareth no ſuch argument, as he would gather: for there is no word, that shutteth owt the neceſsity of the Eldership vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate: no, or that maketh it, ſo much as les neceſſary vnderunder a Chriſtian Magiſtrate, then vnderunder perſecution. For the word, eſpecially, is reſtrayned, vntounto the gouernment which the Bishop had ouer the Elders: ſo that if there be any thing to be gathered of that, it is this, that the Bishop should not hauehave ſo much preheminence ouer the Eldership, when ther is a Chriſtian Magiſtrate, as when there was not. And how doeth not he blush, to alledg mens ſentences directly contrary to their iudgmentes, playnly declared in this matter of the Eldership: which counteth yt ſuch a faut, to ſet one writer againſt another. I omit other places, owt of M. ddEpist. 11. 14. 20, 83.Beza, where this cauſe is confirmed boeth generally in the vnuariable gouernment of the church, and particularly in this caſe of the Eldership. The reaſons alledged of M. Muſculus and Gualter hauehave bene anſwered. His ſixt reaſon of giuing no more here, to the Chriſtian Magiſtrate, then to Nero: is but onelyonly ſaid, the vntruth wherof shal appear in place.

Seing therefore, the lord hym ſelf hath once ſet this gouernment by Elders in the church, and that no man may diſplace, which he hath placed: ſeing yt is a ſupply of that in the church, which the moſt ſufficient and moſt diligent miniſtery of the word, is not able to perform by yt ſelf alone: p. 73ſeing the churches vnderunder the law, and in the Apoſtles tymes could not want this help: and ſeing the antiquity which folowed for diuers hundred yeares, partly held the ſame, partly lamented the want of yt, and partly left markes and footinges whereby, being loſt, yt might be recouered again: ſeing further, the liberality of god towardes the church is commended, in that for the greater ſafety of yt, he would hauehave many watchmen of one church. Laſtly, ſeing the Apoſtel in the perſon of Timothe, chargeth moſt ſtraitly al the Miniſters of the word, with the keping of this order, vntil the appearing of our Sa. Chriſt: let vsus conclude that the Eldership ordeined for the gouernment of the church onelyonly, is the perpetual and vnchangable decree of god, and therefore not onelyonly in comon wealthes where many, but alſo in Monarchies where one gouerneth, not onelyonly in time of perſeqution, but alſo in time of peace, to be reteyned.

Again, forſomuch as the Apoſtel ordeined thes Elders, church by church: foraſmuch as giuing a rule of the gouernment of al, aſwel of churches in the countrey, as in the City, he inioyned the praeſeruation of this order: forasmuch alſo as the goſpel, whereof this is a part, brake forth owt of Ieruſalem into al places, not into cities onelyonly: and for that, the Paſtor of an vplandish town, is no more able to doe al that is to be doen in his church, then the Paſtors in the city: conſidering alſo that the churches, as dawghters and coheirs of one father and mother, owght to enioy like priuileges: ſeing further the Bishop to whome this Eldership is aſsiſtant, hath bene shewed to belong aſwel to churches in the country, as in the city: finally, foraſmuch as the vſe boeth of he churches vnderunder the law, and of thoſe after the Apoſtels tymes, lead vsus hereūto: yt is likewiſe browght, to pas, that this Eldership owght to be in al churches, not in thoſe onelyonly which are planted in great cities.

Thus is alſo ended, the queſtion of Cathedral churches:pag. 742. whereof the D. hath made, a whole tractate. wherein there appeareth, ſcarce a ſtep of this inſtitution of god: of which, p. 74when he would brag of, and ſet the higheſt price, he hath valued twelue of the beſt of them at no more, then one poor halin Cambridg or Oxford, is able to yeeld. yea then they were at, Queen Maries tyme: when there vuere commonly in eueryevery one ſome, vuhich diſſembling for fear, vuere not vuithstanding able to confute al Papiſtes & Anabaptistes, whereunto he can anſwer nothing. That the offices came, from the bottomles pit of hel: may partly appear by that which I hauehave aaIn the former part p. 616.alledged, partly in that the names of Prebendaries &c. are not to be found in any godly or pure writer, but in the dregges of the canon law. For further vnderſtanding of which diſorders, I refer the reader to that which M. Caluin bbInſt. 4. booK chap. 5. ſect. 10. p. 746.writeth of them: who peinteth them owt in their colours. And where I shewed, that to look for any good vntounto the church in the Popes inuention, is to look to be fed vuith the Cockatrice egges, and to be clad vuith the spiders vueb: he anſwereth, that the Pope, as the Ethnickes, may make good lawes: which is vntrue, in matters belonging to the church, eſpecially in ſo great a matter, as the appointing of an office. I wil not denie, but they may deuiſe good lawes for the commodity of this life: but yt can not be shewed, that euer the lordes people fetched their lawes to gouern the church by, from the heathen, much les from the Pope, which is the head of the heathen.

Therefore al may ſee, what a ſinguler profit boeth the church and common wealth should hauehave: if they were conuerted into Colledges, for the bringing vp of ſcholers, which they would yeeld (as I think) in greater numbre, then boeth the vniuerſities doe now, with furniture of profeſsions in al good knowledg: where now, they ſerue but for the fatting vp of a few, and thoſe ether vnworthy to be norished of the Almes of the church, or els whoſe preſence is neceſſary in other places, and dutiful by reaſon of paſtoral reſidence. wherein, as wel againſt theirs, as againſt our vniuerſitie mens p. 75non reſidence: I refer the reader to the ſpecial tractate thereof. 748That they should ſerue for rewardes, to thoſe which hauehave ſpent much tyme in getting learning: is but to fome at the mouth, that which is a shame once to conceiue in the minde. conſidering that by reward, he vnderſtandeth not the honeſt and ſufficient prouiſion for his competent how should, and conuenient hoſpitality for the poor, which is confeſſed moſt due: but meaneth ſome ſurplice beſide this, which is aaIn the former part. Traclat 6. chap. 5.before cō futed. Nether is any good to be hoped from them, whome the excellency of this office before Angels and men, doeth not content: to whom the fruit which they shal receiue dayly, in that by their miniſtery god is glorified, and men are ſaued, doeth not ſatisfy: finally to whom the ſpecial crown of glory, which remayneth thē in the lyfe to come, with ſufficient prouiſion for this preſent lyfe, doeth not make the miniſtery ſauory, vnles it be alſo ſauced, with theſe inticementes of wordly wealth and dignity. So that this is rather a lure, to draw hyrelinges into the church: then an honeſt prouocation, to cal in faithful Paſtors.

Hereunto commeth the example of other churches, which hauehave pulled them down, and conuerted them to other vſes: which the D. partly denieth, partly maketh no great account of. That they were pulled down, the experience teacheth: at the leaſt, of as many as I hauehave ether ſeen, or could vnderſtand of. And yt is namely recorded, of the bbBullin. vponupon 1. Cor. 14.1 Cor 14church of Zurik: yea of al of them, M. ccli. Epiſt. p. 14.Caluin teacheth that the prebendes &c. ovught to be called to a more lavuful vſe, namely to the fineding of Scholers, Miniſters, and Poor. And this is our meaning: not that theſe goodes should be turned from the poſſeſsion of the church, to the filling of the bottomles ſackes of their gredy appetites, which yane after this pray, and would therby, to their perpetual shame, purchaſe them ſelues a field of blud. which thing, althowgh we hauehave giuen playnly to vnderſtand: yet becauſe we hauehave to doe, with ſo importunat an aduerſary, that feareth not to charge vsus with intent to gratifye p. 76ſuch Cormorantes, I thowght good in a word to proteſt yt.

As for the light account, he maketh of thoſe examples of the reformed churches, which notwithſtanding pretendeth to eſteme ſo greatly, of one or two of the auncient writers: I leau to vtter what yt argueth, oneles he were able to shew by the word of god, that they did not wel. The reſt of this tractate, which is a cartlode of vntruthes: vttered partly in accuſing me, partly in maynteyning him ſelf, I wil not touch.