A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 8 – Reply 13
To the 28. pag. 25:
HEre M. D. ſekinge buſilie to hide his nakednes / findeth not ſo muche as a figge leafe to couer his ſhame with all. Na in ſekinge a hole to hide it in he hathe met with a hill to ſhew it further of. He accuſethe me of diſhoneſtie / that I hauehave falſified his wordes in ſaying that he affirmeth it To be a thinge indifferent to come to the cōmunion clothed or naked for that he hathe not vſed this word (indifferent). yow bind me verie ſtreight iff yow will let me vſe no other wordes then yow / that which yow ſaid in manie wordes I vttered in one. I refuſe not to be counted vnhoneſt / iff I hauehave differred in ſenſe from yow. For whether that be a thing indifferent or no / whiche is neither cōmaunded in the ſcripture nor by neceſſarie collection maye be gathered theroff: I leaue it to the Iudgement off all thoſe / whiche hauehave learned that the ſcripture is a perfecte rule off all thinges publike or priuate neceſſarie to be done off a Chriſtian man: which thinge alſo after is more at large declared. And where the gloſſe ſaith / that the proufe owt off S. Paule that it is no indifferēt thing For men to cōe either clothed or naked is ſuperfluous: I merueile that he ſeeth not that it is directlie againſt that he ſetteth downe whiche is / that it can not be ſhewed owt of the ſcripture either by plaine wordes or by neceſſarie collection, that men and women owght not to come naked vntounto the communion. yt was peraduenture more then he woulde hauehave had / but his abſurd aſſertion required it. After he ſaith he knoweth it is neceſſarie to comelines / that a man or woman come clothed: but he denieth it to be particularly expreſſed in the ſcriptures▪ as thoughe this were all one withe that which he ſet downe before / and that there were no difference betwene theſe ſaiynges: yt is not commaunded in the ſcriptures, nor can by no neceſſarie collection be gathered off them, with this it is not particularly expreſſed in the ſcriptures. And to helpe to clenſe M. D. Maiſter Ridley a ſingulier learned man ād conſtant martir of Chriſt muſt be defiled withe this groſſe error. Who althowgh being a mā mighte wel erre: yet it is incredible that a man of his learninge and godlines / coulde fall in ſo plaine a way as this. Therfore / onleſſe it be made to appeare / I can not beleue that euer he wrote ſo and iff he did / I am ſure he is well content that as ſtubble it ſhoulde paſſe throughe the fire.
Wher yow aſke whie I toke that exāple and lefte the reſt: I gaue yow the reaſon for that the other came to be ſpoken off more properlie in another place / and that was onelie founde there: beſides that they are farre off another ſorte then this. Now let me aſke yow: whie yow placed that with the reſt / ſeing yow confeſſe theſe in other places to be thinges indifferent / and at the ordre off the churche: and here denie that yow propounded this as a thing indifferent. iff yow graunte the other to be indifferent / and denie this to be ſo / yow did euill in couplinge them togither which were not matches: yff yow ſaye they are all off one ſorte / and confeſſe that the other be indifferent then I hauehave truely reported your iudgement / in ſaying that yow houlde this alſo as a thing indifferent.
The like cauill vntounto this / is that he chargeth me as thowgh I had falſified his ſaying / for that I put in ſteade of his word Argument fallation. I would knowe off him whether when he findeth fault withe the argumentes off the Admonition, he meane to finde faulte withe trewe Argumentes or falſe. iff (as needes muſt) he anſwere falſe argumentes: I ſaie that there is no difference betwene a falſe argumente and a fallation, ſauing that the word fallation is more proper / and the other worde in this ſignification is vſed foreign, or (as I maye terme it) abuſed: for in deede a falſe argument argueth nothing: and therfore is no argument / no more then a peinted man is a man. And where he ſaithe that I am not ignorant that there are manie falſe argumentes / which be not amongeſt the fallations: and further aſkethe to what fallation this and that is referred: albeit I coulde ſhew his ignorance in them / eſpecially in the two laſt / yet becauſe that were to drawe the reader to moo queſtions and thoſe altogither impertinent vntounto this matter / I will ſtopp vp this heade / and put yow in remēbrance / that if al were graūted yow that yow demaunde / yet your faulte remainethe ſtill. For I noted your vnſkilfulnes / in that yow ſetting downe certeine argumentes which yow referred to the fallation off Secundum qui…, afterwardes make the argumentes off authoritie negatiuely, and negatiues by compariſon, two ſeuerall kind off argumentes from the firſt / whiche notwithſtanding are not diuerſe / but conteined vnderunder the former place. And that we walke not altogither in the cloudes from the vnderſtanding off the ſimpler / yt is all one as yff a man ſhould ſaye / there are three ſortes off Engliſh men / one ſowthren / the other Bentiſhe / the thirde Middleſex. Yff Maiſter Crammer neuer vſed ſuche Logicke / ſuche a perſonage hath great iniurie to be compelled to communicate withe this abſurditie: for it nothing helpeth yow that he vſed this manner off ſpeeche off Negatiues by compariſon, vnleſſe that yow ſhew that he makethe them a ſeuerall kinde from thoſe off Secundum quid. And when M. D. is not affraid to offre thes vntounto the taſt off the learned men / he aſkethe me whether I bluſhe not trifle in this ſorte. The trewthe is: I am aſhamed to hauehave taried ſo longe in ſoo ſmale a matter / and iff yow had charged me withē ignorance onelie / and not with falſifiyng your wordes / I would (I aſſure yow) hauehave let yow gone withall: and I will promiſe yow from hēceforth what occaſion ſo euer yow giuegive this wayes / (excepte it be manifeſtly ioyned with defence off the cauſe) yow ſhall doo yt withowt anſwere. Where he complainethe off wante off anſwere in the nexte ſection / he dothe me wrong / ſeing I referred him to another place for anſwere. To the next ſection I hauehave anſwered.
To the next ſect. pag. 28.
IFF this ſentence (he that is a good and a modeſt preacher will not diſdaine as well to be taught as teach) be not an idle vagabonde / and broken looſe from all his followes: then it muſt needes be a reaſon off that wherin yow ſaid before / that yow knew no man ſo well learned, but yt might become him to reade and learne Maiſter Nowellles Cathechiſme and the Argument is as I hauehave gathered it. For yow to proue that yt becommeth the authors off the admonition to learne that Cathechiſme / adde that the place off Timothie / dothe not forbidd to learne. And againe a Modeſt preacher will not diſdaine to be taught. So that this is your argument / A modeſt preacher muſt be taught / therfore he muſt learne that Cathechiſme / and therfore muſt be enioyned to learne yt. And iff yow ſaie that yow ſet yt downe to ſhew / that no man is ſo well learned but he may learne ſtill / or to ſhew that the place off Saint Paule dothe not forbidd to learne: I aſke to what purpoſe? Conſidering that the authors off the admonition / do not denie that a Miniſter owght to learne: but that yt is vnmeete for a Myniſter to be enioyned to learne Cathechiſmes. And as for all the argumentes which the D. gatherethe himſelfe owt off this place / they are ſo manie witneſſes againſt him / that he fowght with his owne ſhadowe. For where he ſtill concludethe they may reade Cathechiſmes / he concludeth that whiche the admonition denieth not: but that whiche the admonition denieth to be meete / (which is to driue a miniſter to learne Cathechiſmes) he neuer concludeth. Yt ſhalbe therfore at your owne choiſe / whether yow will hauehave that your argument that I hauehave framed / or els that yow hauehave not ſpoken to the matter.
VntoUnto the 32: ſect: pag: 28:
IN orators I graunt it is a great point off arte / to hide arte / that it appeare not: but when a man ſetteth him ſelffe to confute / the opener and plainer way hathe alwaies bene moſt commendable. So that iff this were your order / yt had bene good that yow had ſet vp ſome marke by a tranſition / wherby we might hauehave vnderſtanded yt. I know not what happened vntounto others / but I confeſſe I ſawe no ſuche order. I ſee this / whiche alſo is true in your former anſwers / that in goinge abowte to heale one wounde / yow giuegive your ſelffe an other. for going abowte to put from yow the abſurditie off this argument / yow confeſſe that yow beſtowe great labor to proue that / which was not in controuerſie betwene the admonition and yow: the other ſhalbe ſene in there places.
To the next ſection anſwere ſhalbe made in the place wherunto he referreth vsus. For the next vntounto that: I anſwere that this is a vaine ſhift / the aduantage wheroff he can not take to excuſe his folie. For this reaſon which he here alledgeth / he had cited owt off Maiſter Bucer / and Maiſter Martyr / page 258 / and immediately after in the page. 239. he pretendeth that he will bringe other reaſons / beſides this to proue that the ſurplis dothe edifie: and therfore beginneth a freſhe withe furthermore, and then addeth Secondlie, wheras iff it be trew which he here alledgeth / in his pretence off going further / he ſtandeth ſtill and remoueth not an ynche. For the next vntounto that / I ſaye as I ſaid before / and referre it to the iudgemente of the reader / whether I hauehave not onelie not corrupted your meaninge / but almoſt conceiued mine argument in the ſame wordes which yow vſe. And wher yow ſo boudlie (in aſking) affirme that capp gowne and tippet vſed in poperie are good ſignes / for that they are ſignes of good thīges / namely off the miniſters off the worde: I ſhewed how vntrue that rule is in the 57. and 60. pages / againſt whiche if yow hauehave any thinge to ſaye / yow ſhall there vnderſtand further.
To the next pag. 30.
MD. taketh it for a thinge aſſured / that the authors of the adminitiō in ſayinge that thoſe that firſt authoriſed the booke of common praier / were ſtudious off peace / and buildinge off the church / meant that they were ſo / in collectinge and authoriſinge that booke: for why els ſaithe he ſhould they ſpeake of them? I anſwere that they had good occaſion to ſaye ſo / to meete withe ſlaunderous tonges / which for the miſlikinge off ſome thinges donne by them / are ready to charge them as thowghe they condemned the men / or miſliked off all thinges they did. And althoughe that be graunted whiche he preſumeth vppon / yet the faulte off the argument remaineth the ſame it did. for thowghe they were ſtudious off peace and buildinge the churche in ſo doinge: yt might well be that they toke not the beſt way to peace / and propounding them ſelues a good ende / choſe not the beſt meanes of comminge thervnto. And for this purpoſe (iff I be not deceiued) in our Eccleſiaſticall ſtorie off king Edwards times / it is ſet foorth / how vponupon. ſute made by the Emperour / that the ladie Marie which then was / might for her ſelfe hauehave the exerciſe off the maſſe: M. Crammer / and Maſter Ridley / and I know not who moo / became ſuters to the kinges maieſtie / that the requeſt off the Emperour might take place. I dowbt not but thoſe good men / were ſtudious off the peace and buldinge off the churche in this requeſt / and propounded that for their ende: and yet king Edward that reſiſted their requeſte / was neither puller downe off the church / nor diſturber off the peace / but pleaſed god / and lefte a notable example to all poſteritie off Kinges and Queenes / that they ſhould not for any reſpecte of kindred / league / or allie / ſuffer any ſuche pollution in their landes.
The ſame alſo might be fall vntounto them in gatheringe off the booke / for it maye well be / that there purpoſe was / by that tempere off popiſhe ceremonies with the goſpell / partly the eaſelier to drawe the papiſtes to the goſpell / (whileſt fearing that they would not frame them ſelues to yt yt ſhould be ſome what framed vntounto them) partely to redeme peace therby / the breach wheroff they feared might hauehave enſued off ſuche a perfecte and throwgh chaunge / as the ſinceritie off the goſpell required. Yff this were there purpoſe they were ſtudious of peace and buildinge of the churche / but yet erred in the meane: ſo it appeareth / that it being graunted vvhichwhich the A. demaundeth / yet my gathering off his argument is iuſtified.
To the 37. ſect. pag. 30.
WHie ſhould yow note here that Cyprians place was abuſed by the Papiſtes? yt is beſides your purpoſe / and contrary to the law to leaue your matche withe whom your are collered / and take yow to a ſtander by. For ſo vnhappelie is it come to paſſe / that the papiſtes / (whoſe diſorders and corruption off the diſcipline off Chriſt were here oppugned) hauehave founde yow their champion to fight for them / whileſt they looke on. And to what ende ſeruethe this headleſſe arrowe / not ſhott / but picked owt againſt the Papiſtes? They are (god be praiſed) ſubſtantially conuinced off the corruption off this place off Cyprian / by diuerſe learned men: ſo that this bare affirmation / that Cyprian ſpeakethe not off the vſurped authoritie off the Biſhopp off Rome, beſides yt is owt off ſeaſon / dothe rather moue laughter / and confirme the enemie in his obſtinacie / then giuegive him remedie againſt his error. But what weighethe this word (for) in our language / is it not a cauſall / and rendreth a reaſon off that which goethe before? Whiche yow hauehave therfore by all lykelihoode lefte owt / that this poore ſhifte might hauehave ſome colour. the reſte is anſwered before. VntoUnto the next I anſwere / that yt ſhall appeare when I come to that place / whether there be ſuche reaſons or no.
In the next ſectiō he chargeth me in great wordes withe vntruthe / and aſkethe me where I finde in the …3. page this argument / that by that there was one offeuerie congregation / he prouethe that there was one ouer a whole prouince. To whom I anſwere that in that he concludethe an Archebiſhopp ouer a prouince / vponupon Ignatius places whiche ſpeake off a Biſhop in euerie churche he makethe: the ſame argument whiche I hauehave made.
To the next page 32. being bare denials and falſe accuſations / I anſwere not
VntoUnto the next ſect. pag. 33.
LEauing his vntrue accuſations / I anſwere / that where he ſaithe that the caſe off Luther and Zuinglius off Circumciſion and preaching vntounto gentilles / which I alledged are not like / for that they be ſubſtantiall pointes of religion / and theſe be not: it is his oulde cuckoes ſonge. For we offer to proue this alſo off the ſubſtance off Religion. And I browght the examples onelyonly to ſhew / that to be vntrue which he goethe abowt to perſwade / that all thoſe which contende where the goſpell is preached / are to be holden for diſturbers. Thother difference which he placeth in that Luther and Zuinglius did that which they did in ſtrininge abowt the Sacramēt / by conſent off theire ſeuerall magiſtrates: althoughe he dothe not make that appeare: yet I aſke him what Zuinglius / &c. ſhould hauehave done / iff the Magiſtrate would not hauehave ſuffred him to anſwere: ſhould he hauehave ſuffred the truthe to be deſtitute off his defence? Where he citeth owt off Zuinglius that the goſpell is a ſworde to deuide the faithfull, and therfore that this doctrine which hathe made a diuiſion in the church can not be good: I anſwere that althoughe he might well ſaye it to the Anabaptiſtes / and that yt ſo comethe to paſſe for the moſt parte: yet that can be no generall rule / conſideringe that the preaching that circumciſion was not neceſſarie / although it deuided thoſe off the church which beleued it from thoſe that did not beleue it:: yet thoſe which did not beleue it / did not ther fore ceaſe to be off the churche / and off the numbre off the faithfull.
The Sermon which our Sauior Chriſt had amongeſt his diſciples / and thoſe that beleued in him touching that his Io… ▪fleſhe was the true meate / and his bloude the true drinke / which who ſoeuer did not eate and drinke could not hauehave life in hym / did make ſuche a cut amongeſt the Diſciples / that all (ſauing Iohn 6. 66.twelue) departed from our Sauiour Chriſt. Yff they made a full departure and Apoſtaſie / it is euident that the goſpell cureth euen thoſe which be in the church cleane from it: yff they did not vtterlie forſake the goſpell / but offended at that ſermon were not as before dailie folowers off our ſauior Chriſt: yet it is cleare that that doctrine of the goſpell / did make apartition betwene the twelue / and thoſe other which went there waies / in that they beleued that ſermon / which the other did not / they were taught / and the other offended. Wherupon it foloweth / that ether the doctrine which our Sauiour Chriſt preached / was not the truthe: or els the truthe may ſometimes / deuide the faithfull amongeſt themſelues.
I could cite diuerſe other examples bothe owt off the Actes off the Apoſtles / and owt off S. Iohn: but theſe ſhall ſuffiſe to ſhew the vanitie off M. D. reaſon. And iff he will ſaye that iff he err / M. Zuinglius errethe withe him: he is vecelie vnworthy the name off a Deuine / that carethe not how ofte he fallethe / ſo he maye fall withe companie. Howbeit I hauehave ſhewed howe M. Zuinglius ſayinge may be vpholden / and yet make nothinge for the confirmation off that which he would proue.