A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 5 – Reply 7
To the 16. ſect. pa. 14.
WHether yow hauehave either ſcripture or godlie learned author for your warrant in your aſſertions / partely hath bene alreadie ſhewed / and more ſhall appeare. But yow muſt learne that the part of a faithfull teacher in the church of god / is neither to propound any thing to the church / neither to reiecte that which is propounded by other / off credit off any godlie / learned / zelous man. And althowghe this be to much / yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to farr owt of al ſquare. Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authoritie / whether owt off the Scriptures / or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs / is the beſt reaſon that can be browght in diuinitie. To bothe I will anſwere here in the beginninge that the reader may hauehave wherewithe he maye beware / and know how to eſtenie bothe his and our proufes. And firſt of all ſeing the Apoſtle teacheth Timothie / that the Scripture inſpired by 2. Tim. 3.the holie goſte / is the onelie rule for the miniſter (which he calleth the man off god) either to eſtabliſhe or ouerthrowe what ſoeuer maye fall in queſtion in the churche: And S. Peter ſaith that who ſoeuer ſpeaketh in the churche muſt ſpeake as the wordes of god: And ſeing all the godlie zelous learned men in 1 Epiſt. 4.the world are not able to authoriſe or diſplace any doctrine in the churche withowt the word of god: I leaue it to be conſidered how daūgerouſlye he mainteineth his anſwere to be good for that it hathe ground either of the word of god / or the iudgement of ſome godlie iearned man / and let it be waied whether this be to ſet vp an other Doctor in the church then Moſes or our ſauiour Chriſt.
Touchinge that the authoritie off the Scripture in diuine matters owght to preuaile / I willinglie graunte: but that the argument off the authoritie of men whiche hauehave interpreted the Scriptures / is the beſte reaſon in controuerſies off diuinitie / but off the Papiſtes (whoſe ſtrongeſt towers are in the teſtimonies off the Doctors) was neuer hard off. And thowghe there be nothing more Papiſtical then this aſſertion: yet the doctor holding the name and profeſſion of the goſpell / maye to the vtter ſubuerſion off it / cauſe this to be printed and flie abroade. And that the authoritie off learned men ſhould be the beſt proufe in diuine matters / hathe more abſurdities in yt / then yt hathe wordes. For firſt their authoritie is here ſet in the ſame ranke withe the authoritie off the Scripture / in that / as the authoritie off the Scripturr / ſo it alſo / is ſet in the ſuperlatiue degree off the beſt proufe Then their authoritie being preferred vntounto all reaſons / is preferred vntounto the reaſons drawen owt off the Scripture: which in euerie diuinitie cauſe almoſte / beſides the authoritie are diuerſe: drawen off the cauſes and off the effectes / &c. Thirdlie yt ys abſurd / to perferr the authoritie of any man (which ys onelie his bare affirmation) vntounto his one reaſon and diſcours. And ſeing the ende off proufes in controuerſies off diuinitye / is that faythe maye be engendred in mindes / whiche onelye can be grounded on the worde off God: what a miſerable / yea what … curſed faith ſhall that be / that is hanged off the authorit… off men: which be they neuer ſo learned / yet are they (becauſe they be men) Lyers / ſuche as deceyue / and be deceyued.
And wheras he ſaithe that an Argument off authoritie hathe an other weight in our profeſſion / then yt hathe in humane ſciences: I confeſſe it hathe ſo / iff the authoritie off the Scripture bee conſydered: But as for the authoritie off men / for the which cauſe he alledgeth this / y… is farr otherwiſe. For yff the authoritie off man in humane ſciences / and in mens matters / be off ſmall force: off how how muche leſſe force owght yt to be in Godes matters? yt is clene contrarie therfore to that the D. ſayth. For althoughe that Kinde off argument off the authoritie off men / is Good neither in humane / nor diuine ſcience: yet it hath ſome ſmale force in humane ſciences: for as muche as naturallie / and in that he is a man / he maye come to ſome rypenes off Iudgement in thoſe ſciences. Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all / as off him which naturally and as he is a man / can no more Iudge off them / then a blind man off colours. Yea ſo farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie ſpoken withowt reaſon and teſtimonie off Scripture: that it carieth alſo a ſuſpition off vntrewth / whatſoeuer proceded from him / which the Apoſtle did well note when to ſignifie Rom. 3.a thing corruptlie ſpoken / and againſt the truthe / he ſaith: that it is ſpoken according vntounto man: he ſaith not as a wicked or lying man / but ſymplie as a man. And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye: yet forſomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is moſt advāced / there remaineth bothe ignorance / and diſordered affections (wheroff either / turneth him from ſpeaking off the truth) no mans authoritie withe the church eſpeciallie / and thoſe that are called and perſwaded off the authoritie off the word off God / can bring any aſſurance vntounto the conſcience. So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew (as it is vntrue): and iff all thoſe authorities which are alledged were faithfullie / and according to the meaninge off the writers cited (as they are almoſt all writhen / and falſified) yet being for the moſt part / vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men / they can giuegive no reſte to any Chriſtian conſcience which ſhall leane vppon them.
And iff he ſaye / that thoſe men hauehave not ſpoken withowt reaſon and warrant off the word of god: then beſides that he is greatly to blame / that bringeth not the reaſons which moued them to thinke ſo / and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that ſentence might ſtand: it falleth owt ſtill againſt him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force: as that which hathe no credit off it ſelffe / but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other. And then the D. ſhould hauehave conſidered / that for ſo muche as the reaſon off authoritie ſtandeth for the cauſe and ſake off an other / that is to ſaye for the argument off cauſes and other places: it muſt needes be worſe then the arguments wherupon it hangeth. for that for whoſe cauſe another thinge is / is better thē the thing which dependeth vponupon it. And therby further followeth that forſomuch as reaſon withowt authoritie is good / and authoritie withowt reaſon nothing worthe: that thoſe argumentes whiche are grounded vponupon reaſons / are better then thoſe which are grounded vppon authoritie. And wheras peraduenture he will ſeke ſome colour of defence off his abſurd ſpeache / in the wordes which he addeth (of ſuche learned men as do rightly interprete the ſcripture:) that addition as it taketh not awaye from the abſurditie: ſo it addeth to the folie and impropretie of ſpeche. For beſides that he taketh that for graunted / which is the queſtion / that is to ſaye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo: he ſhould hauehave vnderſtanded that the rightnes of the interpretation / depēdeth not vponupon the authoritie of the man / or in that ſuche a godlie or learned man did ſo interprete it: but in that the place is expounded agreablie vntounto the ſuite of the texte.
And that the D. which vnderunder the name off auncient authoritie would oppreſſe the truthe / may vnderſtand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie / he is not ſo good a ſcholer o… diſciple off his pretended maſters: of diuerſe ſentences off the fathers them ſelues (wherby ſome hauehave likened them vntounto brute beaſtes withowt reaſon / which ſuffer themſelues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others: ſome hauehave preferred the iudgement of one ſimple rude mā alledging reaſon / vntounto companies off learned men) I will content my ſelffe at this time with two or thre ſentences. Ireneus ſaith / Vvhatſoeuer is to be ſhevved in the ſcripture: can not be ſhevved but of the ſcriptures thē ſelues. 3. l. 12. c. Iero. ſaith: No man be he neuer ſo holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after vponupon the 86. Pſal. Epiſt. 18.the Apoſtles. Auguſtin ſaith: that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned ſo euer he be vnles he confirme his ſentence by the ſcriptures or by ſome reaſon not cōtrary to them. And in an other place / heare this the Lord ſaith, heare not this Donatus ſaithe, Rogatus ſaithe, Vicentius ſaith, Hilarius, Epiſt. 48.ſaith, Ambroſe ſaith, Auguſtin ſaithe, but harken to this the Lord ſaithe.
And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian / affirmeth: Againſt Maxim. … the Arrian. 3. 14. chap.that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece, nor the other the councell of Arimin, therby to btinge preiudice eche to other: neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one, nor him ſelffe by the authoritie of the other: but by the ſcriptures vvhiche are vvitneſſes proper to neither, but common ro bothe, matter vvith matter, cauſe vvith cauſe, reaſon vvith reaſon ovvght to be debated. And in another place againſt Petiliane De vnitate eccleſiae cap. 3.the donatian hereticke he ſaith: Let not theſe vvordes be heatd betvvene vsus, I Saye: yovv Saye: let vsus heare this, Thus ſaithe the lord, and by and by ſpeaking off the ſcriptures he ſaithe there let vsus ſeeke the churche, there let vsus trie the cauſe Here yt is manifeſt that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe / which the anſwerer notwithſtanding maketh ſo great accounts off: likewiſe that reaſon whiche is not directly againſt the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth. and if Auguſtin thowght that in a matter off controuerſie the authoritie off ſo manye godlie and learned fathers as were aſſembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the ſcriptures rightlie / owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince / but not ſo muche as to preiudice an hereſie long agoo condemned: iff he would hauehave the trewth tried by the ſcripture onelyonly: let all men iudge how euill a folower off Auguſtin the D. is / which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth ſo great weight / that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the beſt proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduerſaries cauſe. And iff at any time Contr Iulian Pelagiann̄ lib. prim. lib. de natur. & grat.it happened vntounto him (as it did againſt the Donatiſtes▪ and others) to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him: yet that was not done before be had layed a ſure foundation off his cauſe in the ſcriptures / and that alſo being prouoked by the aduerſaries off the treuth / who bare themſelues highe off ſome Councell / or off ſome man off name that had fauoured their parte. And therfore iff the A. would ſalue this with the example off Auguſtin in other places: yet for that he neuer in any cauſe laieth any foundation / either of any ſcripture or colour of ſcripture: ād being prouoked flieth ſtill from it / as from the rocke and ſandes o his cauſe: it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his ſide: yet the vſe off it in this ſorte / were bothe by the rule off the word off god / and example off the auncient fathers altogither vnlawfull. And ſo the eſtimation which yow hauehave off the learned maie eaſelie appeare vntounto all men / to be as they make for yow / or againſt yow: ſo that when they make for yow they are as ſharpe of ſight as Egles: afterward when they are againſt yow they ſee no more then Iayes.
Yow giuegive me adreſſe vntounto the wiſeſt / godlieſt / and beſt learned emongeſt the Eccleſiaſticall order / to know off them whether they thinke whith yow: but your addreſſe is verie vncerteine: for thoſe are not alwaies peraduēture beſt learned to me that are to yow / and iff yow meane thoſe whiche at there eaſe do not vnwillinglie beholde yow in this wraſtle for the crowne of eaſe and honor (whereoff they may be peraduenture ſome) I maie yet hauehave Good cauſe to doubte / whether they be off that iudgement with yow / or at leaſt whether they would oppugne this cauſe as yow doo. for albeit they be content to take ſome frute off your labor: yet it followeth not alwaies that they would doo the like them ſelues. Yow know that there are ſome whiche will receiue that which is taken by others / that would not venture them ſelues to take yt: and Ierome Ier. 3. To praefat in Iob.writeth ſome where: that faultes euen confeſſed pleaſe oftentimes.
VntoUnto the three next ſections
THat your counſaile vntounto the reader off lookinge before he leape is Good: onelie I admoniſhe that he looke by the candell light off the word off God. For that off allteringe our Iudgement yt cometh after to be anſwered pag. 45. VntoUnto that which foloweth in the 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. I will anſwere nothinge / ſauing that for the proufe off that which I hauehave ſet downe and he denieth towchinge the aduantage taken by the faultes off the printer: I referre the reader to the corrections in the ende of the admonition. And where he denieth that the admonition quoted anie places for the phraſe off ſpeache / and not the proufe off matter: to goo no further / I referre him to the firſt page / wher the 7. and 11. off S. Mathew are noted for the phraſe / and can by no meanes be drawen whether he would drawe them.
To the 27. ſect. pag. 24.
WHere he accuſeth me that I anſwere not to this ſectione in the nexte line I anſwere to it: for confeſſinge it to be a fallation / and ſhewing afterward how vntruelie it is obiected / what more could I anſwere?