A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 16
Caput 2. Diuiſion 1. pag. 95.
IF he would hauehave proued / that which I denie: he ſhoulde hauehave ſhewed / that thes authorities affirmed / that the churche in making lawes off thinges / wheroff the ſcripture hathe not preciſely determined / neede not to hauehave reſpecte to the generall commaundements off the ſcripture before receiued. but that he is not hable to doo with any approued ſentence. And albeit / he hathe ſubſcribed to this ſentence before: yet in the ende off this diuiſion / he beginnethe to ſ…lyde into his former error / ſaying / that in matters not preſcribed in the ſcripture, he can not tel whether to reſorte, to knowe the vſe and antiquitie of them, but vntounto councells, ſtories, and doctors. As thowge the ſcripture were not the loode ſtarre vntounto the churche / in her decrees towching ſuche thinges: and as thowghe the firſte churches vvhhich had not ſuche ſtories &c. had not ſufficient addreſſe in the light off the worde off God / to make conſtitutions by. I graunte the church by ſtories &c. vnderſtandeth of their antiquitie: but the knowledge of their antiquitie maketh litle or nothing to know / how profitable / or conuenient for the churche they be: vvhichwhich being that onelyonly / vvhichwhich is looked into in ther eſtabliſhing / is drawne from the ſcriptures / and not from antiquitie. Howbeit becauſe he pretendith agreement in this / that there be certeine thīges lefte vntounto the order of the church with this cōditiō / that they be doone according to the generall cōmandements off the Scripture: we will houlde him by his former vvordes / and will not ſuffer him to breake frō vsus / vnles he doo not onelie priuilie nibble and bite abowte / but in manifeſt wordes eate vp / his former ſaying. Notwithſtanding in the great plentie the A. hathe off places / for the proofe off this which we denie not: let yt be obſerued / what partly vnproper / partly vngodly choiſe / he hathe made.
The firſt ſorte off Teſtimonies owt off the auncient writers / and councells / are off off thoſe which are in controuerſie / as whether biſhopps maie hauehave ſuffringanes / whether there owght to be metropolitanes / &c. Wheroff althoughe he bringe no teſtimonie owte off his antors / that they are in the churches power / to order: yet he ſettethe them downe / as thowghe there were neuer queſtion moued off them / and as if he had gained them by ſtronge hande off reaſon.
The ſeconde ſorte are off thoſe thinges which beinge determined by the worde off God / off or on / are owte off the churches compas to take order in: As is that which he reciteth owte of Iuſtine / off the deacons carying the brede of the holy ſupper off the lorde, to thoſe which were not preſent at the action off the ſupper: and that which he alledgeth owte of the councell of Neoceſarea / that no man ſhould be miniſter before 30. yeare off his age, Likewiſe that which he bringeth owte off the Amyran councell / that a miniſter can not ſ…ll the churches rightes eſpecially in that ſenſe the councell meaneth / which is for his owne priuate profit. The firſt of theſe is cōtrarie to the inſtitution / and the laſte being ſacriledge are ſimply forbiddē in the worde of god. The Scripture alſo determining that a man off thoſe giftes which be required off the Miniſter off the word / maie / and (if nede require) owght to be receiued vntounto the miniſtery / and ſhewing further / that thoſe giftes fall into yonger yeares then 3…. yt muſte needes folow / that the churche determining flatly / that none ſhall be receiued to the miniſtery before thoſe yeares / ſhuttethe the doore off the miniſterie vntounto thoſe / to whom the worde off God ſettethe yt open. And alſo / that this Councell is altogether owte off place alledged: conſidering that it determined not off this / as off a thinge wheroff the Scripture had not giuen ſentence / but as off a thinge vnlawfull by the Scripture / and for that purpoſe it alledgethe the example off our Sauiour Chriſte / which preached not before he was 30. yeare oulde. Thes thinges daungerouſly ſet downe off the An. as indifferent / which are not: I thought it neceſſary to giuegive the ſimple reader warning / that the Anſw. meaſure wherwithe he meteth indifferent thinges / is vnſealed.
Ther is a thirde ſorte owte off Tertull. de corona militis …d prax. & Baſil. de ſancto Spiritu, Wheroff beſide that diuers off them were neuer conuenient / ſome off them vnlawfull / they are all ſuche as the authors doo not permit to the order of the churche / but vnderunder a falſe clocke off tradition / put the churches necke vnderunder a ſeruile yoke off them. And wheras he would faine ſaue thes places owte off the fire / by ſaying / that althoughe ſome grew in time to ſuperſtitiō, and that one of his autors gaue to myche vntounto vnwrittē traditiōs: he doothe but burne his fingers / the places he can not ſaue. For yt behoueth him to ſhewe / that certen thinges / not determined in the word off God / are in the churches power: and thes places (yff they proue any thinge) proue that the churche / is bounde off neceſſitie to certaine thinges / wheroff there is no commaundement in the worde off God: for the which cauſe they are alledged off the papiſtes / from whom it is not vnlike but they were borowed.Hoſius de tradit.
But yet it appeareth, that there were thinges in the churche, not expreſſed in the worde: I graunte: and more then that / thinges contrarie: but by what right yt doothe not appeare. And in deede iff the anſwerer had light vppon ſome weywarde aduerſarye / that woulde hauehave debated this queſtion with him: theſe places wolde hauehave giuen him greate aduantage / conſidering that bothe the ceremonies / are for a greate parte naught / and the opinion off the neceſſitie off them a greate deale wors. And Ieromes wordes alſo / in tying the later churches / vntounto the cuſtomes off the ancient which are not againſt faith / (albeit they be ſmoothed / by tranſlatinge praeſertim namely, and with his expoſition of matters off faith) yet euen as they are ſet downe off him / ouerthrowe the churches libertie in thinges indifferent. For althowgh they ſhould be inconuenient / and vncomely yet the matter off inconuenience / and vncomelines / being (by the Anſ.) no matter off faith: the churche muſt ſtill be clogged with them / nether can it by that rule / ſhake them off.
There are a fourthe ſorte of places owte of the aunciēte fathers / wherin he putteth the greateſte confidence / and vponupon which he hathe laide greateſte weight: and therfore by handes ſet ouer againſte them / moueth the reader to laie ſure hould on them. Thes places drawne owte off Ambroſe vppon the Epheſ. and of Tertull de virginibus velandis. that of Ambroſe being (as hathe bene ſhewed) very corrupte / is alſo a conterfaite / as ſhall after be noted. The other off Tertull / is a flat and a plaine Montaniſte. yt is not vnknowne / that Montanus helde / that there was no ſufficient inſtruction giuen by the Apoſtles vntounto the churche / but that there were onelyonly certeine principles off Religion giuen by them being vnperfect / and were afterwarde to be finiſhed / and poliſhed / by the conforter whiche himſelfe did forge. This poiſon Tertullian hauing druncke / he lefte the Sauour off yt in diuers places / but in no place more brimly then in this. which maye appeare / by the compariſons he vſeth / off likening the churche off God in the Apoſtels time / vntounto a tree whoſe fruicte was not blomed / and vntounto one which is in his baſe age: and the churches after the Apoſtels times / throwghe reuelatiōs (ſuche as he imaginethe the Apoſtels were not hable to beare) allwaies marching forward towardes a greater ripenes in fruicte / and perfection in age. And if the D. had bene a litle awakened / he might hauehave ſmelt the fraude euen in thes wordes / which he hathe bene ab vſed by. For when he imagineth a nother rule off conuerſatiō / and leading of liffe of a Chirſtian / then that which hathe bene giuen: he might hauehave iuſtly ſuſpected the ſentence: ſeing the rule off conuerſation / comprehended in the commaundementes / is vnchangeable. And when he addeth / that that ſhould be doone by the grace off God / receiuing increaſe dailie vntounto the ende: he did not obſcurely touche / the head off his error / which is / that there ſhall be ſtill vntounto the worldes ende / greater graces off the ſpirite off God giuen to the churche generally / then hathe bene before in the Apoſtels tymes. Wherbie appeareth / that the places which the A. will hauehave the reader laye ſo faſte houlde of / are thornes not to be once touched / withowte a hedging gloue in one hande / and a hatche… in the other. We willingly ſubſcribe / vntounto the Iudgement off M. Caluin alledged here.
And where the Anſ. woulde make peraduēture the reader beleue / that by the wordes off pollicie and gouernement lefte to the iudgement off the church, Caluin meaneth / to make thes pointes in cōtrouerſie at the churches diſpoſition: it ſhall appeare / bothe by his ſeuerall ſentences of thes thinges / that he holdethe them vnchangeable / and by the expoſition off M Beza his wordes / the ſame in effect with thes off Maiſter Caluin / which cometh after to be conſidered.
It remaineth that ſeing the anſwerer woulde oppreſſe vsus / with the authoritie off the fathers. We conſider / whether there can be any fitter places browght / for the maintenance off the Admonition / then the A. hathe alledged for him. Auguſtin / VVhether yt be queſtiō off Chriſte, or vvhethet yt Contr. literas petit. lib. 3. cap. 6.be queſtion off his churche, or off vvhat thinge ſoeuer the queſtion be off: I ſay not yf vve, but iff an angel from heauen, ſhal tel vsus any thinge beſide that yovv hauehave receiued in the ſcriptures vnderunder the lavv, and the goſpell, let hym be accurſed. And leſt the Anſw. ſhould reſtreine this generall ſaying vntounto the doctrine of the goſpell / ſo that he woulde therby ſhut owte the diſcipline: let him heare what Cyprian ſaithe. The Cypri. in ſer. de bapti. Chr.Chriſtian religion (ſaithe he) ſhall fynde that ovvte off this ſcripture, rules off all doctrines hauehave ſpronge, and that from hence doothe ſpringe and hether doothe returne, vvhatſoeuer the Eccleſiaſticall diſcipline doothe conteine. And euen Tertull himſelffe / before he was imbrued with this hereſie off Montanus / giueth teſtimonie vntounto the diſcipline / in De praeſcript. adverſ. haeret.thes wordes. VVe maye not giuegive our ſelues this liberty, to bringe in any thinge off our vvill, nor chooſe any thinge that other men bringe in off their vvill: vve hauehave the Apoſtels for autors, vvhichwhich them ſelues brought nothing off their ovvne vvill, but the diſcipline vvhichwhich they receiued of Chriſte, they deliuered faithfully vntounto the people. And if the ſentence were any thinge worthe / which he browght in towching the diſcipline / owt off Tertull: yt maketh againſt him. For in that he will hauehave that correction off the diſcipline / to hauehave the authoritie of the holy goſte (ſpeaking in his fantaſtical cōforter) he declareth / that it is not a thinge which hangeth vponupon the will of mortal mē. And that in indifferēt thinges / it is not enowghe that they be 2. lib. ad … xorem.not againſte the worde / but that they be accordīg to the worde: yt may appeare by other places / Wherehe ſaieth / that vvhat ſoeuer pleaſethe not the lorde, diſpleaſeth him, and vvithe hurte is receiued. And in another place he ſaithe / that the ſcripture denieth that, vvhiche yt noteth not. And to come yet neerer / where De Monogam.he diſputeth againſt the wearing of crowne or garland (which is indifferent off it ſelfe) to thoſe which obiecting aſked / vvhere the ſcripture ſaithe that a man might not vveare a crovvne: he anwereth De coron militis.by aſking / vvhere the ſcripture ſaithe, that they may vve are. And vntounto thē replying / that yt is permitted vvhichwhich is not for bidden: he anſwereth / that yt is forbidden, vvhichwhich is not permitted. Whereby appeareth / that the argument off the ſcriptures negatiuely / holdeth / not onelyonly in the doctrine / and Eccleſiaſticall diſcipline: but euen in matters arbitrarie / and variable by the aduiſe off the church. Where it is not enoughe / that they be not forbidden / vnleſſe there be ſome word / which dooth permit the vſe of them: yt is not enoughe / that the ſcripture ſpeaketh not againſt them / vnleſſe it ſpeake for them: and finally / where yt diſpleaſeth the Lorde / which pleaſethe hym not: one muſt off neceſſitie hauehave the worde off his mouthe / to declare his pleaſure.
Whether I commonly vſe to propounde thinges in controuerſie / in bare affirmacions / or denials / withowt reaſon: and whether yowe applie the ſcriptures / better then I: and howe true yt is / that yowe hauehave in yower former booke alledged more ſcriptures / then I did in mine (all which thinges this gloſſe affirmeth) I leaue yt to the Iudgement off the reader.