A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 15

A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1 · Reply 15

p. XLIIIIWhat authoritie the churche hathe in making off orders.

Chapter 1. pag. 77.

THe playſter vvherwithe the anſwerer woulde heale his vnſkilfulnes in the expounding off tollerating in the churche. by theſe wordes placing in the churche, will not cleane. For to let pas the meanig off the admonition (whiche he ſhoulde hauehave ſhewed iff he mainteine his anſwer by yt / and not as he doothe (contrary to all lawe of diſputation) bid me proue that their meaning was not ſo as he ſuppoſeth) I ſaie to let that pas: yt appeareth by bis plaine vvordes / that this expoſition was not framed in regarde off the meaning off the admonition / but for that he knew not what difference there was betwene placinge in the churche, and tollerating in the churche. For himſelffe cōfeſſeth that this is the principall grounde of their booke / that thoſe thinges onelyonly ſhoulde be placed in the churche p. XLV/ whiche the lorde himſelf in his worde com̄aundethe. and aſcribing this iudgemēt vntounto them he afterwarde expoundeth / that to be aſmuche as if they ſhoulde hauehave ſaide: that nothing ſhulde be tolerated, &c. yff this be their principall grounde that nothing be placed, &c, (as the A. confeſſethe:) and placing in the churche is not the ſame that tollerating in the churche (as he doothe alſo confeſſe:) yt muſt folowe that the principall grounde off the admonition / was not (as he ſaithe) that nothing ſhoulde be tollerated in the churche not commaunded by the worde. And his wordes doo diſcharge the admonition off any ſuche aſſertion. For in that he ſaithe / that their meaning was (ſo farr as he coulde gather) that nothing ſhoulde be placed, &c. yt is manifeſte that in ſaying nowe that they mente that nothinge ſhoulde be tolerated, &c. he chargeth them farther / then he was then hable to gather off their booke.

Afterwarde he chargethe me / withe an vnaduiſed and a popiſhe aſſertion / for that I ſay: that many thinges are commaunded in the ſcripture vvhichwhich are not expreſſed in yt. He neded not to hauehave trauailed far / to hauehave ſeene how far I am from poperie in in this pointe: iff he woulde hauehave but conſidered / the wordes which folowe in the ſame diuiſion: that god hathe ſet before vsus in his vvorde, a perfect patrone off his churche. But I was at leaſte ouerſeene in this kind off ſpeache. Alas iff he woulde vnderſtande his grammer / and acknowledge that which ſimple ſcholers off the gram̄er ſchoole doo well knowe / that their is difference betweene expreſſed and conteined, betweene expreſſed and included, betweene expreſſed and implied, betweene expreſſed and gathered: He woulde neuer hauehave troubled the reader with ſuche folies. And as for that which I ſet downe / I did yt vppon Good groundes. For who is there which knoweth not / that thes thinges / that there is one eſſence and three perſons in the godheade / that there is in our Sauiour Chriſte one parſon and two natures: are not expreſſed / but onelyonly conteined in the worde off God?

And iff proofe muſt be had off thinges (which is to greate p. XLVIſhame for one that cariethe the title off a diuine to be ignorant off) let the anſwerer know / that lerned diuines ſpeake afte this ſorte / Their wordes be thes. Off the father, of the Acta Ratilboncuſia.Sonne, and holy ghoſte, there is one nature one eſſence and thre perſons: In Chriſt our lorde there be tvvo natures and one perſon, and many other thinges vvhichwhich the catholike churche doothe receiue, rather layde oute by the interpretation Quàm ipſarū ſcripturarū verbis expreſſa ipſis tamen ſcripturae verbis implicida.off the Scriptures / then expreſſed in the vvordes off the Scripture. Here the anſwerer may lerne / that certaine off the cheiff pillers off our Religion / by the Iudgement off this councell are not expreſſed in the worde off God / and yet notwithſtanding bothe conteined in the worde off God / and commaunded to be beleued.

And where he ſaithe that he coūntethe that expreſſed in the ſcripture when yt is either in manifeſt wordes conteined, or theroff gathe red by neceſſary collection: I anſwer / that I ſuppoſe / that there was neuer writer / holie nor prophane / that euer ſpake ſo: and that yt byddethe defiance bothe to de vinitie / and humanitie / being forged (as yt is to be feared) contrary to his owne knowledge / onelyonly that he might giuegive ſome colour vntounto that abſurdytie / which he woulde ſo gladlye faſten on me. I ſaie that it is againſt his owne knowledge: foraſmuche as in his former booke / and euen in the nexte diuiſion / (which is in the 78 / page off this his later booke) he confeſſethe this difference off being expreſſed in the worde / and gathered off it / which is the ſame in effecte which I hauehave ſaide. For he ſaithe that nothing owght to be tollerated in the churche' &c. onles yt be expreſly conteined in the worde off god or maye manifeſtly therof be gathered. Here he plainely oppoſeth as member off one diuiſion / expreſſely conteined, and manifeſtly gathered: now in this later booke cleane contrarily / he maketh gathered to be a part of expreſſed. And in an other place off his former booke / (as it appeareth in the 24. page off his booke) he ſaithe: and none off theſe circumſtances are commaunded in the ſcripture, or by neceſſarie collection theroff may be gathered. Where he ſuppoſeth ſome thinge neceſſarie to ſaluation p. XLVII/ which is not commaunded / namely which may be neceſſarylie gathered of the ſcripture. And iff thoſe wordes commaunded in the ſcriptures (which are generall) will not conteine al that which is neceſſary (as his diuiſion teacheth:) how much les will thes wordes / expreſſed in the ſcriptures, compas them? and iff commaunded and forbidden be all one with expreſſed (as he here affirmeth): then did he abſurdely to make gathered off the ſcriptures / to be an oppoſite member vntounto commaunded. That which I ſayed off the argument off authoritie off a man / to be neither good affirmatiuely / nor negatiuely / farther then to induce thereader into ſomelikinge / or miſlikinge / and not to hauehave force to compell: is apparaunt vntounto al which hauehave any ſparcke of iudgement. That which is broug… out off Ariſtotle / is to no purpoſe: and it maketh alſo againſt the A. Foraſmuche as where Ariſtotle ſaithe / that credite is to be giuen to him that is cunninge: he ſpeaketh off thinges / which hauehave a likelihoode / and may be diſputed off on bothe ſydes: and not of thinges / which are to be receiued without gaineſaying. And I merueile that the A. will not ſee / that amongeſt men / the cunningeſt in any profeſſion / hauehave in diuerſe thinges bene off thoſe which followed them iuſtly founde fauls with. And if he will bothe ſticke to Ariſtotle / and interpret… him as he dothe / that a man ought to beleue euerie one, in that as to and profeſsion where in he is conninge: then euerie learned Deuine in his profeſſion / is to be beleued whatſoeuer he ſaithe. Which beinge abſurd / and ſeinge it hathe bene before ſhewed / that an argumēt of the authoritie of mā affirmatiuely is not good: let vsus holde that for ſomuche as mā / cānot come (through his infirmitie) vntounto the perfectiō of any thinge / (which reaſon being aſſigned of me / is vntouched of the A.) and foraſmuche as the giftes off god / are giuen in meaſure / and not in perfection: that an argument off …he authoritie off man / can not enforcevs / and that it is proper vntounto the Apoſties / and Prophetes / whom the Lorde had choſen to be his notaries / and whoſe handes he helds continually / to be without the hazarde off errour.

p. XLVIIITo the places which I alledged owte off the worde off god / to proue that an argument drawne of the authoritie off the ſcripture negatiuely / is good: he anſwereth / that the examples which I bringe / be of thinges of great importance / and forbidden in other places of the Scripture. I graunt they are ſo / and that maketh much againſt hym: for that the Lorde hauinge this aduantage againſt the Iſraelites / off charginge them that they had doone contrarie vntounto his commaundement / choſe rather to ſaye after this ſorte / that they had doone that vvhichwhich he had not commaunded, therby to teache his to hange vppon his mowthe. And the anſwerer owght to hauehave conſidered / that the reaſon is generall whiche the prophetes vſe: which otherwiſe ſhoulde be no reaſon at all. And it maye be ſhewed / that the ſame manner off argument / hathe bene vſed in thinges which are not off the ſubſtance off ſaluacion or damnation / and wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrary. In Ioſuah / the children of Iſraell are charged by the Prophete / that they aſked not counſaile off the mouthe off the lorde / when they entred into couenant with 9. Ioſuah 14.the Gabeonites: and yet that couenant was not made contrarie vntounto anie com̄aundemēt of god. For howſoeuer yt ſeemeth to ſome / that vponupon the wordes off Moſes / they owght to hauehave bene put to deathe / being of thoſe nations which dwelte in the inheritaunce off the people off god: yet iff yt be conſidered what the cauſes were / why they might not enter in to league with them (which was / leſt they dwellinge amōgeſt them ſhoulde drawe them to a falſe worſhip of god:) yt will not be Deut. 20.Deut 20harde to vnderſtande / but that withe condition off yelding themſelues / bothe to the ſubiection of the Iewes / and to their inſtitution in the Religion of god (as thes did) they might be receiued.

There was in deede difference betweene theſe nations / which dwelled in the lande off the inheritaunce off the children of Iſrael / and which dwelt rounde abowte them. For where the Iewes might make league with the nations rounde abowte them / withowt anie their ſubmiſſion vntounto Religion: p. XLIXthey coulde not doo ſo with the Cananites / &c. And where in other nations after peace refuſed / the children off Iſraell hauing taken a cytie / owght to kepe a liue women and children in theſe ether reſiſtinge them / or not ſubmitting themſelues vntounto the ſeruice of god / it was not lawful to ſpare ether wemē or children. But that it was ſimplie vnlawful for thē / to make league with them vvith any condition / I thinke yt can not be ſhewed. for thē Ioſue ād the princes ſhoulde hauehave doone euil / to hauehave kepte their othe with them / after they had vnderſtanded their frawde / coſidering that all othes made againſte the com̄aundement of god / are to be brokē. And if it be ſaide / that Ioſue and the princes did euil in keping their othe: the approbation off that facte is apparant in an other place / where the 1. Sam. 21.1 Sam 21vengeance for the lorde / fell vppon all Iſraell by famyn / and vponupon the houſſe off Saul particulerly / by executing thoſe off his familie: becauſe the gabeonites / had bene (cōtrary to the tenure of the othe made with thē) put to deathe. And vnles this 2. Ioſuebe admitted / we ſhall be compelled to condemne the ſpies / which entred into league with Rachab the Harlot: and Salomō / 1. Reg. 9:1 Kgs 9which receiued the Amorytes / that voluntaryly yelded thē ſelues vntounto his obedience / and withall vntounto the obedience off the lorde / as it maie appeare in the bookes off Eſra / and Nehemias: where their poſteritie (which are there called the ſonnes off the ſeruantes of Salomon) hauing of olde time / grow ne into one bodie off the churche off god withe the children of Iſrael: ioyne them…elues with thē in the reſtoring of the temple. 2. Sam. 7. 7.2 Sam 7:7Wheruppon the A. may vnderſtande / that the Scripture reaſonethe negatiuely againſte the Iſraelites / in a thinge wheroff there was no commaundement to the contrarie.

Moreouer we reade / that when Dauid had taken this counſell / to builde a temple vntounto the lorde: albeit the lorde had 1. Chron. 17. 6.1 Chr 17:6reuealed before in his worde / that there ſhoulde be ſuche a ſtanding place / where the arke off the couenante / and the ſeruice off god ſhoulde hauehave a certeine abydinge: and albeit there was no worde off god / which forbad Dauid to builde the temple: yet the lorde (with commendation off his good affection / and zeale he had to the aduancement off his glorie) concludeth p. Lagainſte Dauid his reſolution to builde the temple with this reaſon: namelie / that he had giuen no commaundement off this / who ſhoulde builde yt.

Where he woulde grounde this anſwer / vponupon the wordes off Zuinglius: yt is manifeſt that Zuinglius reproueth the Anabaptiſtes / not for reaſoning negatiuely off the authoritie off the ſcripture / but that they reaſoned negatiuely off an acte / or an example. And there is great difference betwene them that ſaye / it is no conteined / or it can not be concluded off any place in the ſcripture: therefore yt is vnlawfull / and betweene the Anabaptiſtes / which reaſon that therefore the baptiſme off children is vnlawfull becauſe it is not founde in the Scriptures / that the Apoſtles did babtize any children. Wheras iff they had reaſoned thus / that the baptiſme off yonge children was vnlawfull / foraſmuche as yt was not commaunded in the ſcriptures: althowghe the grounde off their reaſon had bene falſe: yet their concluſion had bene faſte and ſure. And therfore iff the anſwerer wolde hauehave delte trewly / he ſhoulde not hauehave fathered this anſwer of Zuinglius / whiche hathe no ſuche thinge) but off the Papiſtes whoſe proper defenſe this is againſte thoſe / whiche manifie the ſufficiencie of the worde off God / as that whiche giueth men addreſſe / vntounto all thinges whiche are to be doone.

Maiſter Harding reprochethe the Biſhopp off Saluſbery In the 29. diuiſiō of the firſt Article./ with this kinde off reaſoning / whiche the anſwerer obiectethe againſte vsus ſo often / vntounto whom the Biſhopp anſwereth. The Atgument Maiſter Hearding meanethe and not very plainely vttereth is the argumente off authoritie negatiuely: vvhichwhich is taken to be goode, vvhen ſoeuer proufe is taken off godds vvorde and is vſed not onelyonly by vsus, but alſo by many of the catholike fathers. And there alledgeth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. diſpureth negatiuely off the authoritie off the ſcripture / for that the Apoſtel vppon the wordes off Moſes in thy ſeede and not ſeades, concludeth that our ſauiour Chriſte was vnderſtanded. likewiſe he ſhewe the how Origine / reaſoneth after the ſame ſorte. And a litle after / ſheweth the reaſon why the argumente off authoritie off p. LIof the ſcripture negatiuelie / is good / namely / for that the worde off God is perfecte. In another place vntounto Maiſter Harding In the defence off the Apologie 5. parte ca. 15. diuiſion 1.caſting him in the teethe / with the negatiue Argumentes: he alledgeth places owte of Ireneus / Chriſoſtome / Loo / which reaſoned negatiuely of the authoritie of the ſcripture The places which he alledgeth / be very full / and plaine in generalitie / withowt any ſuche reſtraincte as the A. imagineth / as they are there to be ſeene.

Wheras he ſaithe / that the reaſon that God coulde giuegive a perfecte patrone off the churche / therfore he hathe ſo doone / doothe no more folow then in there all preſence off the Sacrament: he doothe but trifle withe his reader. For I reaſon not off the bare power off God / but hauehave ioyned his will with his power. For my wordes be / that the Lorde determining to ſet before our eyes a perfecte forme off his churche, is bothe hable to doo yt, and hathe doone yt. Where yt is euidente vntounto all men / that I grounde my reaſon not onelyonly off the habilitie off the lorde / but vponupon his determination: not onelyonly off that which he coulde doo / but off that he hathe doone.

Diuiſion 2. pag. 79.

VNtoUnto that wherin he was towched / for his vnſkilfulnes in diuiding / in that bothe matters off gouernement / and matters of faithe (which he deuideth / and by diuiding oppoſethe) meete ſo frendlie together in the gouernement of the Pope: he anſwerthe not. And yet hauing nothing to anſwer / he findeth him ſelfe the talke / of a whole ſheete of paper. For firſt off all / how ridiculous ys it that he ſaithe / he did not put a caſe but an example? Then / whether perteines it / that he ſettethe doune / what the Papiſtes ſaye off the pope, what the pope doothe himſelffe? That alſo whiche he affirmethe in ſo good earneſt / that no gouernement owght to be receiued / direcly againſte the worde off God: that he repeatethe / and repeateth againe / his negatiue argument of the popes ſupremacie: are they not all ſtrey ſpreaches / fraied owt of ther wittes / carying not the weight of a fether / to the profe off any thinge in controuerſie: hauing no knot / either with the cauſe / or one of them with another?

p. LIILikewiſe the diſtinctions off Ceremonies / and gouernement / off ſubſtantiall and accidentall / of externall and ſpirituall / are altogether vnprofitable / brought to auoide his apparant ignorance in diuiding. Likewiſe his dalying in his queſtions what gouernement I meane (which is apparant in the diſcours off all our bookes off boothe ſydes) alſo his groping at none dayes / by queſtions what it mente by matters neceſſarie to ſaluation, which is expreſſed off me in the very nexte diuſiō / and againe in the thirde chap. 2 diuiſion. Afterwarde / when he ſetteth him ſelffe to proue / that there is no one finde off gouernement certaine and vnuariable in the churche: let yt be obſerued / how looſely ād childiſhelie he doothe yt. For beſide the firſte reaſon / which is a begging of that whiche is in queſtiō and the later reaſon / drawne of the authoritie of maiſter Gwalier wherof he can hauehave no aduantage / vnles (with maſter Gwalter) he will affirme that excommunication is not neceſſary / nor yet conuenient vnderunder a Chriſtien magiſtrate: all the reſte of his authorities / drawne owte of M. Caluine / the heluetian confeſſion / Bullinger / are quite beſide the cauſe. For they are to proue / that there may be a churche withowte excommunication. As thowghe the queſtion were / what thinges the churche (of thoſe whiche be preſcribed by the worde off God) may wante / ād yet be the churche of god: and not / what thinges yt owght to hauehave by the preſcripte of the worde off God. Or as thowghe the queſtion were / how ſicke the churche might be / and yet liue: how meimed / and yet not ſlaine: and not what are the meanes / which the lorde hathe appointed / for a whole and wholeſome conſtitution off the bodie of the churche. And iff excommunication or the one forme off gouernement were not neceſſarie for the churche / becauſe the churche which wanteth them / maie be the churche: by the ſame reaſon a man maie ſaye / that the holie ſacrament of the ſupper of the lord / is not neceſſarie for the churche: ſeing that in that companie / where the worde of god is onelie preached and receiued / there is the churche off god. And hereof alſo the practiſe is to be ſene in ſome places / where the magiſtrate (according to the churches p. LIII/ the preaching off the word off god) for certeine occaſiſions / will not accorde / the miniſtring off the ſupper. Laſt off all / M. Beza ſhewing the true markes of the churche / addeth to the two former / the diſcipline framed accordinge to the word / con. 5. 7. ſo that whatſoeuer neceſſitie commeth vntounto the worde and Sacraments in that they are notes / the ſame commeth alſo to the diſcipline by M. Bezaes Iudgement. Where he quarrelleth with me / as thowghe I had concluded off particulars onelie: beſide that he owght to know / that man maie conclude a particular / either affirmatiuely or negatiuely in any figure / not onelie off particulars but off ſingulars: he muſt vnderſtand / that a particular inſtance ouerthroweth him / which oppoſeth matter of ceremonies / and gouernemēt / vntounto matters off faithe / and ſaluation / generally and withowt exception. His accuſation againſt me (for callinge the holie Sacramentes ceremonies) conſidering that kind off ſpeache / is receiued amongeſt the diuines / and I had no further occaſion to ſpeake off them / then to ſhew they were ceremonies: is vtterlie vnworthie any anſwere.

To the third Diuiſion pag. 81. The Anſwerer broileth thinges togither off the infinite merciemercy off god / and of repentance in a moment / of his vnſearchable iudgementes / hauing neither heade nor fote in his talke. And althowghe he would ſeme to ſaie ſomewhat againſt me: yet in deede he confirmeth that which I hauehave ſet downe. For when he ſaithe / that the doctrine of free will being damnable of it ſelffe / dothe not preiudice the merciemercy off God. iff he meane that the merrie off God embraceth him that being infected with that error / dothe by no eſpeciall repentaunce call it backe (as that which is vnknowen vntounto him:) then he fullie agreethe with me. Iff he meane that vppon ſpeciall repentance / and chaunge off minde in that pointe / he obteine merciemercy: he ſpeaketh truelie / but to no purpoſe off that matter whiche we hauehave in hande.

Therfore to bringe ſome light vntounto thoſe thinges / which the A. withe his diſorder / darkeneth: it is to be vnderſtanded / that firſt off all euerie tranſgreſſion off the law / be it neuer p. LIIII6. Rom.ſo litle off it ſelffe and in the owne nature / is dānable. Secondlie it is to be obſerued / that no ſynne vntounto thoſe whiche are throwghe faithe grafted into the bodie of Chriſt / can bringe 8. Rom.damnation: as alſo withowt faithe (I ſpeake off thoſe whiche hauehave vnderſtanding) there is none which bringeth not certaine deathe / the merciemercy off god (althoughe neuer ſo infinite) being ſhut vp againſt all vnbeleuers. Which I therfore add / becauſe the D. ſpeaketh ſo confuſedlie off the infinitenes off Gods merciemercy. In the third place / it muſt be ſeene / what faultes vtterlie deſtroye the faith which is in Chriſt. For it is cleere / that thoſe that doo not pull vp the rootes / and raſe the foundations of faithe: can by no meanes ſhut the kingdome of heauen / againſt thoſe which are infected with them: althowg he they do neuer come to the knowledge off them. Wherin I thinke that no man off any Iudgement / will denie that errors not in the hearers onelie / but alſo in the teachers / maye be ſuche as do not deſtroye the foundation. And this thing maie be 1. Cor. 3. 12. Col. 3. 19. 2, Pet. 2. 1.1 Cor 3:12Col 3:19Col 3:2eaſelie ſhewed / by diuerſe places off ſcripture / where this diſtinction off errors (which deſtroie the foundations / and which do not: which hold the heade / and which do not: which are deadly / and which are not:) may be eaſely gathered.

It remaineth onelie to ſee / whether the erorr off fre will be amongeſt them whiche do not raſe the foundations (as I hauehave alledged) or no. And when as one which mainteineth fre will / maie holde the fre remiſſion off ſinnes in the grace off god / and likewiſe holde / that that grace is ſhewed vntounto him for Chriſtes ſake (theſe being the growndes off our ſaluation) it muſt needes folowe / that fre will dothe not raſe the foundations. For there is no neceſſitie / that he who ſaithe that the ſpirite off God / by the new birthe hathe giuen him power to die to ſynne / and to liue vntounto righteouſnes: ſhould alſo affirme / that it is giuen him off merite. In the opinion that S. Peter had of his owne ſtrenght and habilitie to die for Chriſt / Math. 26. …3. 35.Matt 26:3Matt 26:35entangled (as it may ſeeme) with ignorance off this pointe off Religion / touching the bondage off mans will: he ceaſed not therfore / to hauehave a true and iuſtifyinge faith in the ſonne off God / wherunto our ſauiour Chriſt himſelfe had giuen teſtimonie. p. LVAnd if their were not ſufficient holde in this example off Peter / againſt the A: yet in the greke doctors / and ſome alſo off the latin / (as in Ierome eſpecially / which did not by one acte or two as Peter / but by argumentes and open ſayinges / declare there liking of fre will) this is manifeſt. for dare the. A. ſaie / of all thē that they beleued not the fre remiſſion off ſyn̄es For Ieſus Chriſtes ſake / or helde not the foundation of religion / all that time that they taught in the churche of god / ād helde that opinion? And if he graunt that they had faithe: then I conclude that euen then / when they helde fre will / they helde the foundations. which is not ſo in the example off beleuinge / that the maſſe is a ſacrifice for the quicke and the deade / whiche he vnſkilfullie comparethe withe this error off free will: conſideringe that that ouer throweth / and turnethe vppſide downe the materiall cauſe off our ſaluation / which is the ſacrifice off the ſonne off god / that he once for euer in his owne perſon / offred for the ſinnes off the worlde. And therfore that error can not be / in any in whom there is faithe.

I brought three reaſons off compariſon / to proue that the worde off god is a rule to ſquare out / whatſoeuer thinge is to be doone in the orderinge off the church: and the A. in callinge them bare wordes / hathe made a quicke diſpatche off them / ſauinge that his marginall note / dothe kepe the wonte off vntrue ſurmiſinge. which vponupon that I compare the gouernement / with chaines and bracelets / ſaithe: that I account yt more pretiouſe / then the doctrine. As iff the apparell which clothethe the nakednes / were not alwayes more neceſſarie / ād ſometime alſo more preciouſe / then thoſe iewels. And if I had not this defence: yet if I had fallen vppon an aduerſary which had not bene diſpoſed to trifle / the lawe off compariſons / (which exacteth not likelihood in all thinges / but onelyonly in that where in the cōpariſō is made) would hauehave cleared this margēt.

To the Diuiſion 4. pag. 84. The Admonition ſaide / that nothinge ought to be eſtabliſhed in the church, vvhichwhich is not commaunded by the vvorde off God: the A offended hewith / condemned this ſayinge: the replie ſhewethe / how the ſaying of the A. is maintenable / namely for that thoughe there p. LVIbe not expreſſe wordes for eueryevery thinge / which may be eſtabliſhed: yet there are generall commaundementes / whereby all thinges which can fall into any Eccleſiaſticall conſultation / are to be directed. The A. (to mainteine his ſodeine / and vnaduiſed condemnation) ſaithe: that in thoſe thinges which are varied by time / and other circumſtances / and whereoff there is no preciſe determination in the worde off god: yt is enoughe that they be not againſt the worde of God. So that this is the difference betwene the Adm. and him: they will hauehave thoſe thinges not onelyonly not to be againſt the worde / but to be grounded vponupon the worde: and he ſaiethe / it is enough they be not againſt the worde. Wherin iff there were no diuerſitie / the Anſ. is in fault: which in his greedines off findinge fault / condemneth that in the Adm. which he is conſtreined to allowe off. But in deed they are not all one. For albeit it can not be / but that which is not agreable vntounto the worde off God / is againſt the worde off God: and off the otherſide / that which is not againſt the worde off God / is agreable vntounto yt: yet he that ſo ſaithe / that certaine thīges muſt be doone not agaīſt the worde / that he wil not alſo accorde / that they ſhould be doone accordinge to the worde: gyuethe thereby to vnderſtand / that there is ſome ſtar or light off reaſon / or learninge or other helpe / whereby ſome act may be well doone / and acceptably vntounto God / in which the worde off God was ſhut out / and not called to counſaile: as that which either coulde not / or neede not / giuegive any direction in that behalfe. Nowe in this later boocke / and in this diuiſion he ſaithe: that nothinge ought to be doone in the churche, but accordinge to the true meaninge off the worde. And afterwarde ſaithe / that he agreethe vntounto this ſentence off mine: that in makinge orders, and ceremonies off the churche, it is not lavvfull to doo vvhat men liſte: but they are bovvnde to follovve the generall rules off the ſcripture / that are giuen to be a ſquire / whereby thoſe are to be ſquared out. And thus in the end the A. is conſtreined / to yelde him ſelfe to that / which he hathe before founde fault with. for if nothinge p. LVIImay be doone in makinge orders off the churche / but accordinge to the generall rules off the ſcripture / and thoſe generall rules be commaundementes: it folowethe / that nothinge may be doone in makinges orders for the church / but accordinge to the commaundement off God. Which is that which the Adm. did ſet downe.

And wheras he woulde make the reader belieue / that we hauehave giuen backe / in that we confeſſe certeine orders may be eſtabliſhed in the churche / which are not expreſſed in the worde off God: I hauehave ſhewed / howe the Adm. is very vntruely charged with that ſentence: there beinge neither the ſame / nor the valew off thoſe wordes to be founde in it. This therefore beinge agreed on off bothe ſides: we might hauehave here ſhut vp theſe controuerſies / ſauinge that the A. holdinge this doctrine in wordes / dothe notwithſtandinge in deede continue the ſiedge againſt it: in that all thoſe places / which I hauehave alledged for proof off it / he doothe by ſhamefull and open corruptions / eſſaye to ouerthowe.

And to the firſt place / whiche is that the wiſdome of god in his worde / doothe teache men eueryevery good way / and therefore 2. Proue.the way which ought to be taken in the eſtabliſhement of orders / and ceremonies in the churche: he aſketh me in great ſcorne / what that maketh to the purpoſe? in deede to proue that which he vntruly / and contrarie to my playne wordes / in his anſwer to al my argumētes ſurmiſeth to be my pourpoſe (that is / that no lawe ought to be made in the churche / which is not expreſſed in the worde) I ſay to proue this / I graunt it is not ſufficient: but to proue that all thinges owght to be doone in the church / not onelyonly not againſt the com̄aundement / but alſo accordinge to the commaundement of God (which was that which I propounded / and he denied) it is more ſufficient / then he is hable to anſwer. His anſwer alſo / which ſuppoſeth this ſentence directed vntounto princes and magiſtrates (onelyonly belike in that he ſaithe my ſonne) is vttered withowte all iudgemēt: conſideringe that Salomon / by that title ſpeaketh vntounto all the children off god / of what callinge ſoeuer they be / as it is manifeſt by the writer to the Hebrues.12. 5.

p. LVIIITo the next argument / grounded vppon the authoritie off Saint Paul / (which is / nothinge can be doone to the glorie 1. Cor 10. 1. Tim. 4.1 Cor 101 Tim 4off God / withowt ebedience: all thinges doone withowt the Teſtymonye off the worde off God / are withowt obedience: therefore nothinge doone withowt the Teſtymonye off the worde off God / can be doone to the Glory off God) to this argument / which he calleth vndigeſted: he anſwereth by repetition off my wordes / and that Saint Paul… meaninge is / that nothinge be doone againſt the worde. Which how abſurde an anſwer it is / when bothe that is the queſtion / and I hauehave expreſſly vrged the Teſtimonye off the worde off God to be required / let all men Iudge.

The next argument / which he ſaithe is euill framed / is apparant. Whereſoeuer faithe is wantinge / there is ſynne: in eueryevery action not commaunded / faithe is wantinge: therfore in eueryevery action not commaunded / there is ſinne. To this be anſwereth: that the wordes off Saint Paul (not to be 14. Rom.off faithe) ſignifie that we ought to doo nothinge / againſt our conſcience. Which both is very abſurde / and ouerthroweth the ſenſe off the Apoſtle. For hauinge ſhewed / that he which doothe any thing doubtingly / is condemned: he aſſigneth immediately / this to be the reaſon / becauſe he dooth it not off faithe. So that the Apoſtle calleth that doone not off faithe / which is doone doubtingly: But he is ſayde to doo agaynſt conſcience / which hauinge his knowledge / and perſuaſion ſetled / goeth agaynſt yt.

And where he ſaithe / that the wordes going before (which are Bleſſed is he that condemneth not hym ſelffe, in the thing vvhichwhich he allovvethe) do proue that ſenſe off his: it is ſpoken withowt all conſideration off the place For how commeth yt to paſſe / that he rather referrethe theſe wordes off Saint Paule not to be off faithe, to this ſentence / which is p. LIXfarther remoued: then to that off doing with dowbte / which goeth immediately before / yea wherwith it is coupled in the ſame verſe / withe a coniunction cauſall? And althowghe the reaſon ſometime be referred / vntounto that which goethe farther off: yet that is bothe rarely / and then / when by no meanes yt can agree withe that / wich goeth immediatelie before. Which can not be here / conſidering eſpecially / that it could not be vnknowen / but that he which dothe againſt his conſcience / ſinneth / wherby the Apoſtle ſhould neede make any proufe of it. but off him which doothe a thing ſtaggering and waueringe / ther might be ſome dowbte / whether he ſynned. and therfore the Apoſtle hauinge ſaid / that he is condemned in ſo doinge: addethe this reaſon / for that he dothe it not of faithe, which beinge ſinne / is therfore damnable.

Where he ſaithe / that if a man ſhould do nothinge wheroff he hathe not aſſurance by the word off God, that he dothe well: that therby ſhould be ouerthrowne Chriſtian libertie in indifferent thinges: the faulte is / in his want off vnderſtanding. For euen thoſe thinges that are indifferent / and maye be donne / hauehave their fredome grounded off the word off God: ſo that onleſſe the word off the lord / either in generall or eſpeciall wordes / had determined off the free vſe off them: there could hauehave bene no lawfull vſe off them at all. And when he ſeethe / that S. Paule ſpeaketh here off ciuill / priuate / and indifferent actions / as off eating this or that kind of meate (then the which their can be nothing more indifferent:) he might eaſely hauehave ſeene / that the ſentence off the Apoſtle / reacheth euen to his caſe / off taking vpp a ſtraw. For iff this rule be off indifferent thinges / and not off all: I would gladlie know off him / what indifferent thinges it is giuen off / and off what not. And the ſame alſo I require off him in the other generall rule / off doing all thinges to the glorie off god. For iff that reache vntounto all indifferent thinges it muſt needes compriſe alſo this action of his. Which iff it doo / then as no man can glorifie God / but by obedience / and here is no obedience / but where there is a worde: it muſt followe / that their is a worde.

p. LXAnd ſemethe it ſo ſtrange a thinge vntounto him / that a man ſhould not take vp a ſtraw / but for ſome pourpoſe / and for ſome good pourpoſe? or will he not giuegive the lord leaue / to require off a Chriſtian man / endewed with the ſpirite off God / as muche / as the heathen require off one / which is onelie endued with reaſon / that he ſhould do nothing / wheroff he hathe not ſome ende / and that in all his doinges whether publicke / or priuate / at home / or abroade / whether withe him ſelfe / or with an other / he owght to hauehave regard / whether that which he dooth / be donne in dutye or no? And iff the taking vp off a ſtraw / be donne to good ende / either off helping him ſelfe / or others / regarde of profite / or pleaſure / or what els: it hathe teſtimonie off the word off God. And if it hauehave not an ende / and a Good ende: will not the A. giuegive the lord leaue to cō demne that in his infinite wiſdome / which men by the light off a litle wiſdome / do accompte foliſhe? or will he be ſo iniurious to the iuſtice off god / that he maie not iudge that to be ſynne / whiche they ſaye is donne againſt dutie? What alſo? that ſome euen off thoſe heathen men / hauehave tawght / that nothing owght to be donne / wheroff thow dowbteſt whether Cie. 1. off.it be right or wronge. Whereby it appeareth / that euen thoſe which had no knowledge of the word off God: did ſee mutche of the equitie of this / which the Apoſtle requireth of a Chriſtiā man: and that the cheifeſt difference is / that where they ſent men for the difference off good and euill / to the light off reaſon / in ſuche thinges: the Apoſtle ſendeth them / to the ſcoole of Chriſte in his worde / which onelyonly is hable thoroughe faith / to giuegive them aſſurance / and reſolution in their doinges.

And althoughe to mainteine his former vnaduiſednes he had rather ſaie / that men ſhould doo nothinge but which they beleue Caluin vpō the cpiſtle, and Inſti. l. 3. ca. 15. ſ. 5.not to diſpleaſe god, then with the godly learned to ſay / that they ought to doo nothinge / which they are not aſſuredly perſwaded of / that it pleaſeth God: yet euen this / which he ſayeth off beleuinge that it doth not diſpleaſe God, I would knowe off him / Where he can fetche the grounde off / but in the worde off God. For iff he doo beleue / that it doeth not diſpleaſe God / and p. LXIbeleife be not but in reſpect of the worde off god: it muſt followe / that he hathe ſome word off God / which tellethe him / that that dothe not diſpleaſe the Lorde.

And where he accuſethe this doctrine / of bringing-men to diſpere: he dothe it wronge. For when doubtinge is the waye to diſpere / againſte whiche this doctrine offrethe the rēmedie it muſte needes be / that it bringeth comforte / and ioye / to the conſcience off man.

The reaſon which I aſſigned / why it is neceſſarie to hauehave the worde off God / goo before vsus in all our actions (namely for that wee can not otherwiſe be aſſured / that they pleaſe God): he dothe not once touche. His ſecōde ſignificatiō of theſe wordes / not to be of faithe, that is not to be an article of faithe: if it had any grace in it / yet it is merely idle in this place / and helpe the no more / to the vnderſtanding of the place of Saint Paul nowe in hande / then ſmoke dothe the eyes. And where in the ende he ſaieth / that thes places doo proue as muche for all cyuill actions / as for eccleſiaſticall: and that I can no more proue by thes / that a certaine forme off diſcipline is appoincted in the Scripture / then that euerie ciuill action is preciſely commaunded to be doone without any change: I graunt it: neither did I alleadge them therefore / but was driuen into this diſputacion / onelyonly by occaſion before alleadged in the beginninge off this diuiſion / and manifeſtly expreſſed in the next.

7. Diuiſion pag. 86.

WHere as I alledged / that in making ceremonies and orders off the churche / this owght to be obſerued / which 1. Cor. 10.1 Cor 10ſainct Paul requireth / that they offende none / but eſpecially that they offende not the churche off God: the firſt exception off the anſwerer is / that this rule preſcribeth the dutye vntounto priuate men, and not generally vntounto the churche. As thoughe the rule were not generall / or this thinge were preſcribed vntounto them / in reſpect of that they were priuate / and not in reſpect off beinge Chriſtians / whether priuate / or publicke: in which caſe that p. LXIIwhich is commaun̄ded to one …s cōmaunded to ahor as if the Lorde were ſo carefull in priuate offences / and careles in publike. And iff offence ought to be taken heede off in thinges doone withowt many witneſſes / withowte all countenaunce off autoritie / and once onelyonly: how muche more owght yt to be taken heede off / in the orders off the church / which hauehave ſo many lookers on / ſo greate cōtinuance / and ſuche force off autoritie to ſtrike yt deeper in?

His ſeconde exception is / that by this meanes the orders off the churche, ſhoulde be ſubiecte to one or twoo mens liking, or miſliking. which anſwer procedeth off two foule an ouerſight / and wante off vnderſtandinge off the worde offenſe, For Saint Paule by offenſe / doothe not meane diſpleaſure / or diſcontement: but that wherby / occaſion is giuen to anie / of ſynne and tranſgreſſion off the lawe off God / which maie as well be with alowance / as diſalowance / when all are pleaſed with that which is doone / as when they are diſpleaſed. And therfore in that ſignification which Saint Paul and our ſauiour Chriſt before him take this word offenſe / the churche owghte to Mat. 5. 29.Matt 5:29prouide / that there be no offenſe giuen to one alone.

His thirde exception / that I added this worde eſpeciallie to the texte, is a mere cauill. For althowghe I vſed that worde / more then is in the texte: yet I bothe kepte the meaning / and layde y… more open vntounto the ſymple reader. And wher he ſa…th / that the Apoſtell would hauehave men more carefull off offending thoſe whiche are not yet come to the churche, then thoſe which be off yt: yt is altogether vntrew / and not onelyonly againſte the meaning off the Apoſtle / but againſt the generall rule off louelove: wherin thes degrees are aſſigned / that we (leuing all men) ſhould eſpecially louelove thoſe / which are members off the ſame bodye with vsus. Whereupon yt foloweth / that the fruictes off louelove (wheroff this is one off the principall / that we …iue no occaſion off offenſe) owght rather to be performed toward them off the churche / then towardes ſtraungers. And y… being certaine which S. Paul ſaithe / that we muſte doo Good vntounto all Gal. 6.Gal 6but eſpecially to thoſe which are off the how ſhoulde of faithe: p. LXIIIyt muſte needes folow off the contrary / that we owght not to doo hurte vntounto any / but eſpecially vntounto thoſe / which are off the howſhoulde off faithe. And this degree doothe our Sauiour Chriſte him ſelfe note / when he thundering againſte offences / addethe this as an encreaſe / and an higher ſtepp in ſyn̄e: if be yt doone againſte one of thoſe which beleue in hym. 18. Mat. 6Matt 6And where he ſaithe / that ſtraungers may be so withdrawne, wheras there can be no ſuche feare off thoſe whiche are alredie members off the churche: he ſpeaketh bothe contrarie to all experience / and directly contrary to the Apoſtell / which diſputing in this caſe 1. Cor. 8. 11. Rom. 14. 15. 20.1 Cor 8:11Rom 14:15Rom 14:20of offenſe / ſaithe that the weake brother periſheth throwghe thes offences.

Laſte off all (yff he require authoritie) Oecumenius / a mā myche liked of the anſwerer / thīcketh that he had an eſpeciall care / to thoſe that be alredy members of the churche: and Bucer hathe a longe treatiſe / wherin he proueth / that if either the Papiſtes / or thoſe that are members off the churche muſte be offended: that yt is more agreable / to prouide againſte the offence off the churche / then off the papiſtes.Bucer vponupon the 18. of S. Math.

The ſeconde rule he aloweth / but admittethe no competent Iudges of yt / but ſuche as made the orders: as the papiſtes / whiche (alowing off the Scriptures) take them ſelues onelyonly able / to iudge off the ſenſe off them. And if there were but ſome few as he ſaithe / where as there are many thowſanſandes / and thoſe all priuate men / where there be which hauehave charge: yet I wolde know of the A. whether the ſpirite off God / is tyed ſo ether to multitude / or to autoritie: that bothe a fewe / and priuate / may not eſpie faultes in the orders / which hauehave bene deuiſed by many and publike perſons.

To the thirde rule / that all ſhoulde be doone vntounto edifying: he ſaithe that yt can not be applied to all thinges generally vſed in 1. Cor. 14.1 Cor 14the churche, but to praiers, tounges, &c. ſpecified in that chapter, as if it were not the ordinary of the Apoſtell / to proue the particulers / by the generall / and ſo to conclude / that the exerciſes off praing / ſinginge &c. ſhoulde be doone to edifying / becauſe all things muſte ſo be doone. And where he woulde ſeeme / to …ye the Signification / off edifying / onelyonly p. LXIIIIvntounto inſtruction in the churche: yt is manifeſte that the Apoſtell / carying yt alſo vntounto thinges indifferent / will hauehave this to be the rule / off our priuate actions / myche more off ſuche publike actions / as I hauehave before declared. And the wordes which ſaincte Paule vſeth / doo not require / that ceremonies Rom. 14. 19.Rom 14:19and orders of the churche ſhoulde edifye (as he ſurmiſethe): yt is ſufficient to come vnderunder this rule off the Apoſtle / that they tende to edifyinge: and he can not be ignorant / that yt is one thinge to builde / and another thinge to tende to building.

For the 4 rule / which ys that they be doone to the glory of God / he will acknowledge yt to be no rule / to direct ceremonies Rom. 14.Rom 14by / becauſe yt is a rule to guide all actions whatſoeuer. which ys a very ſtraunge argument / that becauſe yt is a rule to guide all actions: therfore yt is no rule to direct the churches. And yff this be a ſufficient cauſe off refuſing yt as impertinent to this purpoſe: then that rule (which he off thes fowre dothe onelyonly allwe / as of that onelyonly which he him ſelffe browght) muſte alſo be iudged impertinent to this purpoſe / and ſo thruſte owte off the doores with her followes. For there is nothing whatſoeuer a man doeth / whether priuately or publickly in matters either ciuill / or Eccleſiaſticall: but he owght to kepe this rule / that yt be doone in order and in comelines.

Where vppon my wordes / And yet ſo left to the order off the church, that it doo nothing agaynſt rhe rules aforeſayde, he noteth that I am cōtrary vntounto my ſelfe, and contrary vntounto the the Adm. Why dooth he note not the cōtrarietye? Are theſe contrary? Yt is not enough, that the orders off the church be not againſt the vvord, onles they be grovvnded vppon the vvord: ād this / that they are ſo left to the order off the church, that yt / doo nothing contrary to the rules aforeſaide? Declaring my minde at large before / I hauehave in this laſt ſentence / put leſſe then was in the other: but there is nothing contrary. I neuer diſſented from him in that he ſaith / the church may in making orders, doo nothing agaynſt the word: but in this / p. LXVthat he by reiecting the Admonition / denieth that they ought to be cut owt according to the word and commaundement off God: I bothe did / and doo ſtill diſſent from him.

The article off the Duche church / as yt is ſet downe off M. Beza / we doo fully agree with: which is / that vve ovvght 24. Epiſt.to eſteme thinges indifferent, by the circumſtance off time, place, and perſon, vveighed by the ſkoles off the vvord off God. There are diuers thinges beſides in this diuiſion / that are nothinge to the pourpoſe / and vnworthy any anſwere. And amongeſt others / what an vntollerable mockerie off the reader is yt / that where yt hath bene ſhewed / that the wordes off the Admonition / not commaunded in the ſcripture, owght to be taken for that / which is either particularly / or in the generall commaunded: he notwithſtanding ſaith / that peraduenture we may ſhift yt, in ſaying that they ment, either generally, or particularly. Wherin in ſteade that he ſhould hauehave proued / that they ment not ſo: he maketh a paraduenture off that / which hath bene before in ſo many wordes diſputed.

Diuiſion 6. pag. 89.

IN that yow wounde vpp the lordes daye / withe other thinges which yow accounte merely indifferent neither ſet any marke in the foreheade off it / whereby we might vnderſtande that yow had anie other eſtimation off it then off the reſte: al men doo ſee / that I had Good cauſe to charge yow as I did. And euen now yowr anſwer which yow make / is expreſly againſte that which yow hauehave written before. For yow affirme that the lordes daie is in the nomber off thoſe which not to obſerue / or once to call in queſtion / is meere madnes. But in your former booke / after recitall of the lordes daye / and other thinges which yow accounte indifferente: yow cloſe vp which this ſentence / that there is none ſo ſimple, which vnderſtandethe not, that the churche hathe authoritie in thoſe matters. Yf yt be mere madnes for the churche not to obſerue the lordes daye: p. LXVIhow hathe the churche authoritie in that caſe? And yf yt maye not once moue queſtion off it: how can yt take order in yt? your manner off ſpeeche / wherby yow would goo betweene thes two ſentēces / and helpe to ſet at one ſuche manifeſt contrarieties / are abſurde: for yow ſaie / that the continuance off the lordes daye ſo longe, doothe proue yt neceſſarie to be obſerued: and yet add / that yt maye be altered vponupon great and eſpeciall conſiderations. wheras if it be neceſſary to be obſerued / it may not be altered: And if yt maye be altered / then it is not neceſſarie. Wherby appearethe how trewly I gathered off your wordes / which yow can not auoyde withowte ſuche ſenſeles ſpeeches.

Againſt that which I ſaide off Eccleſiaſticall diſcipline / inſtituted in the 18 / off S. Mathew for contemners and neglecters off the worde / and common praiers: yt is ſaide / and ſaide with greate wordes / that that place is to be vnderſtanded off ſecret and particuler faultes, and not off open, and knowne. Wheras yt is more then manifeſt / that if the ſcripture giueth authoritie to reprehende priuate faultes: yt doothe myche more authoriſe to rebuke publike faultes. And if thoſe faultes / which are doone againſte one man: miche more thoſe which are doone againſt the whole churche. And iff thoſe which are doone againſte the profit off men: myche more againſt thoſe / which are doone againſte the glorie off God. And if vppon refuſall off Admonition / in thoſe particuler and ſecrete caſes / he will hauehave the churche procede to excommunication: how myche more will he / that that proceeding be obſerued in thes open faultes? And yt ys to childiſhe / thus continually to ſtumble at this: that the wordes off the ſcripture ſhoulde hauehave no farther reache / then to that ſpeciall caſe wheroff expreſſe mention is made in the texte: and to leaue no place to argumentes off like / of more to the les / off les to the more / of contraries &c. and therbie to cut off all meditation off the worde of God / to deſtroye a greate parte off the vſe off teachinge in the churche. Albeit in folowinge his owne interpretation / the contemners or neglecters off the worde and praiers / maye well be ſubiecte to this rule / (for it maye come to pas that one maye contemne the worde / &c. And yet in that manner as it ſhall be known p. LXVIIwne onelyonly vntounto one what opinion he noriſhethe of them) yet becauſe that is not alwaies / let vsus ſee further / what vnſkilfulnes it is which the A. doothe ſo greatly accuſe in this allegatiō.

Saint Paul grounding him ſelfe vponupon this place off our 1. Cor. 5.1 Cor 5Sauiour / doubted not to drawe forthe the authoritie he had to excōmunicate / againſt the inceſtuous mā / whiche was notoriouſly knowne to hauehave offended the whole cōgregation / ād Hymineus / which had corrupted the puretie off the doctrine. 2 Tim. 2. 18. 1. Tim. 2. 20.2 Tim 2:181 Tim 2:20And iff the A. ſaie trewly / that that doctrine off our Sauiour Chriſt touching excommunication / may be caryed no farther then to that caſe off priuate and ſecret iniuries: then Saint Paul drewe the ſworde / and tawght to drawe yt / where yt owght not. And althowghe there be no mention made off the admonitions: yet they muſte be off neceſſitie preſuppoſed / foraſmiche as it was not lawfull / to hauehave proceeded to that extremitie off cuttinge off by excommunication: if the offenders had lefte any place to admonitions / and wolde hauehave ſuffered themſelues to hauehave bene cured by gentler medicines. What alſo that Saint Paul vponupon the publike admonition which he 2. Cor. 13.2 Cor 13gaue vntounto certeine offenders / menaceth them that if they admit not his admonitions / and reprehenſions / he will not ſpare them: doothe he not in thoſe wordes giuegive them the threat off excommunication? And if he doo▪ then yt is cleare / that thoſe admonitions being publike / were off publike / and knowne faultes / wherby folowethe that this rule off admoniſhing and reprehending / are forerunners vntounto excommunication / euen in publike faultes. And as he here fighteth againſt a manifeſte trewthe: ſo he hathe himſelffe for aduerſarie: which affirmeth Pag. 667./ that againſte an heretike / bothe thes two admonititions which oure ſauiour Chriſte ſpeakethe of / and the excommunication afterward / owghte to be practiſed, oneles he will ſaie / that an heretike which is knowne to one onelie / owght ſo to be hādled ād that he which is notoriouſly knowne / owght to be free frō that cenſure. The place of M Caluin / is altogeter frō the pourpoſe, for I doo not ſay that priuate admonitions ought to be applied vntounto publike offences / the Apoſtell of thē giueth order that ſuche offenders ſhoulde be rebuked openly. p. LXVIII1. Tim. 5.1 Tim 5OnelyOnly I ſaide / that for contempte / and neglecte off the wordes (I might hauehave ſaid for euerie faulte that tendeth either to the hurte of the neighbour / or to the hinderaunce off the glory off God) there be preſcribed in the worde off God / admonitions / and reprehenſions / and if thoſe will not ſerue / excommunications: but whether the admonitions and reprehenſions ſhoulde be priuate or publike (that thinge hanging vponupon the qualitie and kinde of the faulte) I affirmed nothing.

Now let vsus ſee / what reuel he maketh with the ciuil Diſcipline / appointed by the lawe of God: Where before he can 8. ſect pa. 5. off his booke.giuegive one anſwer / he muſte aſke three queſtions: the firſte is anſwered before in the beginninge / the laſte is handled afterwarde in the 6. Ch. and 5. diuiſion. And as for that parte of the ſeconde queſtiō vvhichwhich withe other his ſainges folowing ſurmiſe that I woulde hauehave the negltcte of the worde puniſhed by deathe: yt is directly againſt my expreſſe wordes / which (hauing ſhewed the puniſhementes / that ſhoulde be executed vponupon contemners) add that there are other puniſhementes for thoſe / which neglecte the worde &c. And as to that parte off his queſtion / which is whether contemners off the worde owght to be put to deathe: yt is as his other queſtions be / of thinges not onelyonly affirmed / and ſet downe / but diſputed off bothe partes. For this is that which we plainlie affirme / and bringe argumentes to proue. And when he that deſpiſeth the worde of God / deſpiſeth God himſelfe: the equitie of this muſte needes appeare / vntounto all thoſe in whome there is but a corne off the zeale and looue of the glorie off God / or rather in whō there is not ſome pleaſure / to ſee the glorie of God troden vnderunder feete. But he ſaithe / that the place off Moſes off putting Idolaters vntounto deathe, maketh nothing to proue this. The reaſon 22. Exo.wherof he aſſignethe to be: becauſe contemners / are not Idolaters. This is his ordinary faulte / that he can not vnderſtande / that iff an Idolater owght to die: miche more a contemner of the worde. For contempte (althowghe yt be not in an action / which doothe vtterly ouerturne the ſeruice of God / as Idolatrie: but in one which ſtaineth / or cracketh yt onelyonly / p. LXIXas is the breache off the Sabbothe) is yet ſhewed to be ſo diſpleaſante vntounto the lorde / and ſo deteſtable: that that which off yt ſelfe / was not deadly / onelyonly by this circumſtance of contempte / was puniſhed with preſente deathe / which may appeare in him that gathered ſtickes on the Sabothe daye. The breache off the ſabothe daie / was not ſimplie puniſhable by Num. 15. 30. 31. & 32.Num 15:30Num 15:31Num 15:32deathe / as Idolatrie was / myche les ſo ſmall a breache / by the gathering off a fewe ſtickes: yet becauſe yt was doone (as the ſcripture ſaithe) in a highe hande / that is to ſaie proudly and contemptuouſlie: the lorde commaunded / that he ſhoulde be put to deathe / and ſetteth that downe for a generalle lawe. How myche more then / ſhall he which deſpiſethe the worde off God / (which is the rule off the whole bodie off the ſeruice off God / and off that trew reſte From our owne workes and from ſinne / whereoff that bodelye reſte / was a figure) be puniſhed withe deathe? And iff becauſe the lawe doothe not ſaie in thus many wordes / that a contemner ſhall die, yt be not lawfull to conclude / that he owght to be put to deathe: what wil the anſwerer ſaie / vntounto the writer vntounto the hebrues which 10. Heb. 28.ſaithe / that he that deſpiſethe the lawe off Moſes vnderunder two or three witneſſes / was put to deathe withowt merciemercy? For by thoſe wordes yt appearethe / not onelyonly that a contemner of the lawe off Moſes / owght by the lawe to die (which is that which I ſett downe:) but alſo that the writer vponupon th… and ſuche like places as I hauehave here alledged / gathered that whiche is no where in the lawe / found in the ſame wordes wherin he vttereth that ſentence.

Touching the place off Deutronomy, which he ſaithe is onelyonly vnderſtāded off falſe witneſſe: yt is apparāt / that althowghe yt folowe 19. Deut.immediatly the lawe off puttinge a falſe witneſſe to deathe: yet it is a generall ſentence / and hathe regarde vntounto all the crimes which are capitall. for iff falſe witneſſes be put to deathe / and Idolaters or contemners remaine: how is the lande purged off the euills whiche drawe the wrathe off God vponupon yt? or how is a terror ſtricken into the reſte wherby they may be kepte from the infection off that ſynne? And if no puniſhement p. LXX/ but deathe / be hable to giuegive a ſounde full enoughe to ſtricke a ſufficiente terror of the ſynne off falſe witnes in ſuche a caſe: how myche more ys yt needefull / that there be as brymme / and as audible a puniſhement againſt Idolaters / and contemners of the worde / to the ingendring of that feare in others / wherby the reſte maye be kepte / in the feare and trewe worſhip off the lorde.

The place off the Chronicles / is not anſwered: for yt is more generall / then the A. taketh yt: and is an expoſition off Chron. 2. 15.the lawe. For where the lawe ſaithe / that he that ſeruethe ſtraunge Gods ſhall die: this place ſaithe / that he ſhall die vvhichwhich ſeekethe not the lorde, wher in are comprehended not onelyonly Idolaters / but Atheiſtes / and mockers / and contemners off God: which is that which I had to proue. As for that he aſketh off the perpetuite off thes lawes / yt is afterwarde ſpoken off.

In the ende he findeth faulte / that I (ſaying there are other puniſhementes for ſuche as neglecte the worde of God / according to the faulte) doo nether tell what they are / nor where they be to be founde. I thowght that the mowthe of his vnderſtanding had not bene ſo narrowe / but yt coulde eaſely comprehende / that if contempte be by the vvorde off God to be puniſhed by deathe: that the neglecte off yt / owght not to eſcape the ciuile puniſhement / either in bodie / or Godes / &c. Why I did not recken them vpp / I aſſigned ſufficiente cauſe: in that the varying / according to the quantitie off the faulte / more or les: coulde not be ſett downe. And iff he will ſee in generall / what puniſhement the lawe of God aloweth of in ſuch caſes: he may reade in Eſra. Where (beſide the puniſhement off deathe / againſte the tranſgreſſors off the lawe) there … Eſra 26be alſo appointed baniſhement / loſſe of Good / or impriſonement / as the qualitie off the faute required. And if he ſaye / that that vvas doone by the authoritie not off the lawe of God / but of a heathen prince: the anſwer is eaſie / that yt is very like / that the commiſſion given to Eſra / and authoriſed by the kinge / vvas drawne by Eſra: vvhichwhich vvas a cunninge p. LXXIſcribe in the lawe of God. At the lefte yt is manifeſte / that he bothe accepted that / and amongeſte other thinges gaue God ver. 27. 28thanckes for yt: which he wolde neuer hauehave doone / oneles …t / had bene a Good interpetation off the lawe in that behalffe / conſidering that euen the ciuill and politike lawes / Wherby: the Iewes were thē (and in Iurie eſpecially) gouerned▪ ought to be no other / then thoſe which the lorde had preſcribed in the lawe. And thus let yt be Iudged / what Good cauſe I had to aſke / vvhat vvas become off the A. iudgement: vvhen he ſet dovvne, that there is no Diſcipline appointed …n the worde off God, for thoſe which ſhall contemne the worde off god, and common praiers.

Diuiſion 7. pag. 91.

THe anſwerer ſaide / that there was not one worde in the ſcripture off pulpites or off ſytting at the communion: in a worde I ſhewed / that ther was. And where he ſaithe the pulpit was placed in open ſtreete: That vvas / becauſe off their dwelling in tentes / 2. Chro. 62 Chr 6the feaſte vvheroff they celebrated. For otherwiſe yt appeareth / that ſuche a highe place in the temple / owte off the vvhichwhich the voice off him vvhichwhich ſpake might be hearde / vvas ordinary. The reaſon off calling the doctrine of Moſes / the chaire of Moſes / by a metonumie off the ſubiecte For the adiuncte: I will leue to the reader to iudge of. for my iudgement off them / I ſaide / that they are not lightly to be chaunged: and he diſpurethe againſt me / as if I had ſaide: that yt were not lawfull to chaunge thes vppon any occaſion. And beſide this diſputing againſte his owne phanſie / and not againſt my vvordes: he hathe violently broken into the queſtion / off reading and interpreting the vvorde off God / vvithowt any the leſte occaſion giuen therof: and hathe alſo ſhamefully corrupted / the place off Nehemias / as ſhall be ſeene in the proper place.

8. Diuiſion pag. 92.

Here he accuſethe me of falſifying his wordes / whiche hauehave p. LXXIIcharged him vvith ſaying / that yt ys an indifferent thinge to preache the worde of God in churches or howſes priuately or publikely: wherin he ſtill vttereth his forheade / harder then any ſteele. For thes being his owne wordes / that the ſcripture ſpeaketh not a worde of preaching or baptizing, openly or priuately, at home or in the church: doothe he not ſaye the ſame that I laye vntounto him. What ys indifferent / yf that be not / vvhichwhich the ſcripture ſaithe not a vvorde of / hathe not preſcribed / hathe not determined / hathe not appointed? all vvhiche phraſes he vſeth / as thoſe which ſignifie the ſame thinge. And when he addethe in the ende / that there is none ſo ſymple, that vnderſtandeth, not that the churche hathe authoritie to take order in thes thinges: dooth he not affirme the ſame? for the churche hathe authoritie onelyonly in indifferent thinges to take order. So that it is more manifeſte then the daie / that which I hauehave charged him with ones / he hathe ſaide twiſe / althowghe not in the ſame / yet in as full vvordes. And where he aſketh / whether yt be all one to ſaye / the ſcripture hathe not determined whether baptiſme ſhould be miniſtred opēly or priuately, at home or in the churche, and to ſaye / the churche maye make baptiſme priuate or publike: verelie they are in mine and I thinke in all other indifferent iudgement / all one: and iff they were not / yet as I hauehave ſhewed / yow hauehave ſaide bothe the one / and the other.

And vvhere yow ſaye / that I therby giuegive the reader to vnderſtande, that yow affirme yt is in power off the churche, to apointe that ther ſhoulde be no publicke baptiſme: althowghe I giuegive no more to vnderſtande that / then that yow affirme / that it is in her power to appointe that ther ſhould be no priuate baptiſme: yet all men ſee / that this ys at the leſte the weight off your wordes: that althowghe the churche ſhoulde abvſe her power in apointing alwaies priuate baptiſme / yet that muſt be obeied. For as when yow ſaie / that the ſcripture hathe not determined, whether the communion ſhoulde be celebrated ſitting, ſtanding, or kneeling, baptiſme in fontes, baſons, riuers, &c. Your meaning is to affirme / that iff the churche will hauehave the communion alwaies receiued p. LXXIIIkneeling / or baptiſme alwaies miniſtred in baſone: that ſo it owght to be / and neuer either ſtāding or ſitting or in fontes: ſo in ſaying that the ſcripture hathe not determined, whether the preaching off the worde ſhoulde be publike, or priuate, &c. and that the churche hathe the ordering of this thinge, yow affirme / that if the churche ſhould allwaies ordeine / that preaching and baptizing ſhoulde be priuate: that ſo yt ought to be. Iff yow had ſaide / that yt had bene in the churches power / according to the former rules preſcribed / to hauehave ordered / whether preaching and adminiſtring the Sacramētes ſhoulde be in the towne or in the fielde / in a churche (as they call it) or in ſome one / mans houſe or other: I wolde hauehave moued no queſtion againſte yow. but when yow ſaye / that yt is in the power off the churche / to ordeine whether yt ſhould be publike / or priuate / I can not abide yow for euen in the time of perſequution / when it is preached in the howſe off a priuate man: I hauehave ſhewed / that the churche aſſembling there / the meeting is publike / wherunto yow anſwer not a worde.

Againſte the place I alledged oute off Salomon / he excepteth Prou. 8.Prov 8that it is ſtrangelie applied, and farr fetched. Salomon in the chapter before / had ſhewed how the harlot / doothe lye in waite for men ſecrethe / and in the nighte time / and ſo (preſſed with conſcience of the euill / which ſhe goethe abowte) ſhunneth the lighte / and ſekethe ſecrete corners. In the beginninge off this chapter / he comparethe the wiſdome off God in his worde / vntounto a noble woman / whom he oppoſethe vntounto the Harlot: and ſhewethe How ſhe off the contrary parte / doothe not lie in waite / or ſeeke corners / or night / to hide her ſelffe in / or whiſper in the eares off men / but exalteth her voice and ſpeakethe in the moſte open places / and corners off ſtreates 6. Mat. 5.Matt 5where the greateſte concourſe off people is. wherupon it may appeare / that iff the A. ether will / or vnderſtanding were at home / and not far from him: this place had bene nere enowghe the pourpoſe. For iff the worde muſte be taught in ſuche ſorte / as it maie beſte be conueied vntounto the knowledge of moſte men / and leſte be charged with the ſeeking off corners p. LXXIIII/ or the couer off the night: and yt is manifeſt / that that is better doone / when yt is preached publikly / then when yt ys preached priuately: yt muſt folowe / that by that ſaying of Salomon / yt is preſcribed vntounto the churche / that the preaching owght to be publike. And if there be not onelyonly examples off Chriſte / and off his Apoſtles / but alſo a plaine commaundement (as I hauehave ſhewed) to preache the worde openly: then yt folowethe / that yf the churche hauehave power to order / whether the worde ſhould be preached publikely / or priuately: yt hathe power to order / contrary to the commaundement of our ſauiour Chriſte.

And where he ſaithe that the worde off god maye be taught prtuately, and that a man may exhorte priuately: that is nothing to the purpoſe. For we ſpeake of the order which owght to be keepte in the exerciſes that concerne the bodie off the churche / and not of the priuate exhortations / teachings / and admonitions / that ether the miniſter owght to vſe towardes the ſeuerall perſons off his flocke / or one priuate man towardes another / or the father off a howſholde in his familie / &c. And this is ſo farre from helping off him / that it makethe altogether againſte him. For as yt is not in the churches power / to forbyd thes priuate teachinges / admonitions / exhortations / or to ordeine that thes teachings / &c. be publike / becauſe the lorde hathe commanded thē to be priuate: ſo yt is not in her power / to take awaie the publike preaching of the worde: conſidering that the lorde alſo hathe commaunded yt. And therfore yt ys vntrew / which he ſet downe: that the ſcripture hathe not determined, whether the worde ſhoulde be tawght, priuately, or publikely. For by priuate men / yt hathe determined yt ſhoulde allwayes be doone priuately: by publyke perſons alſo / yt ſhewethe how / and in what caſe / yt ſhoulde be ſpoken priuately: and how / and in what caſe / publikely: contrary wherunto the churche can not determine / and iff ſhe determine a 100. tymes / ſhe is not to be obeied.

And wheras vppon that / that neither the place / nor the p. LXXVnomber off Perſons / be off the ſubſtance off the wordes and Sacramentes / he woulde conclude / that it is in the power off the churche / to make the preaching / and adminiſtring off the Sacramentes / publike or priuate: he maye aſwell ſaie (which he ſaide in his former booke) that yt is in the churches power to take order / whether men and women / ſhall come clothed / or naked to receiued the Sacramentes: conſidering that to come either clothed / or naked / is not off the ſubſtance off the Sacramentes. Where he owght to vnderſtande / that there are diuerſe thinges annexed / and hanging by / which being commaunded by the worde off god: are no more in the churches libertie to alter / then yt is in her power to change the daye into night. Howbeit as I hauehave ſhewed / that the place otherwiſe priuate / being by the order of the churche appointed for the aſſemblie off the whole churche / is for that time of the aſſemblie publike: ſo yt may be well ſaid / that the nōber which meete in that place which is ſo apointed by the churche / to heare the worde off God / (how ſmall ſo euer yt be) can not hinder the publykenes off that aſſemblie. The places quoted in the margente / to proue priuate celebrating off the Sacramentes: are handled in another place.

That which is alledged / owte of an article of the Suche churche / that thinges othervviſe indifferent, doo after lavvfull commaundement (after a ſorte) chaunge theyr nature: we willinglie ſubſcribe vntounto howbeit / withe any thinge which is here in cōtrouerſie / it hathe no knot at all / but is a wandring ſentence / which hathe no fellow. For yt is not debated here / what force off authoritie the thinges hauehave / whiche the churche ordeineth: but the queſtiō is altogether / what are the thinges whiche fall into the churches order.

The nexte diuiſion / wherin he requireth anſwer vntounto the place off the Corinthes / off doing all thinges decently / and orderly: ys anſwered in that I hauehave ſhewed / that the churche being bounde to this commandement in making her Ceremonies / is therbye tyed / not onelye to place nothinge in the churche agaynſte the commandement off p. LXXVIGod / but is bounde euen according to the commaundement / to frame her orders in indifferent thinges. Wherin the anſwerer (althowghe he oppugneth the groundes which I vſed for the proofe off yt) doothe (I ſuppoſe) agree with me / and therfore there was no cauſe / he ſhould hauehave required any anſwer.