A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1, Reply 1
The replye vntounto the anſwer pag. j. &c.
FOr the foure fyrſt ſectyons / being either falſe accuſations / bare repetitions off my wordes / or profes off thinges which I hauehave ſet downe and confeſſe: I will not anſwer. His fifte ſection anſwerethe not any thinge / to diuers reaſons which I hauehave ſet downe / to proue that this cauſe can not be charged with diſorder / whoſe whole worke is / that nothing be donne owte off place / owte off tyme / beſides the boundes off euerie one His ſeuerall callinge. in the 6. ſectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing / doothe gwilfully paſſe by the reaſon which I hauehave alledged / why this doctine which we mainteine / can not be thowght enemy vntounto princes / ſeing yt was a freende to princes / when princes where enemies vntounto it. For him ſelfe can not denie but the gouernement by elders / the choiſe off the miniſters by the churche / the moſte off thoſe thinges which he eſpecially ſuppoſeth to hauehave warre with the ciuile magiſtrate / and are in controuerſie betweene vsus / were in the tymes off the Apoſtells / when they being troden vnderunder feete off the ciuile Magiſtrate / did neuer lifte vpp their heele againſte his power.
And where he ſaithe / it is no plaine dealing to drawe that to this cauſe / which is trewly ſpoken off the goſpell: he needed not to hauehave charged vsus with wante of plaine dealing / ſeing we offer to ſhew the diſcipline to be a parte off the goſpell / and therfore to hauehave a comon cauſe / ſo that in the repulſe of the diſcipline / the goſpell receiueth a checke.
That the diſcipline off the church / is not in the nomber of thoſe thinges which are varyed / is diſputed in the ſecond tractate / and in her ſeueral partes / thorowe out the whole booke. That the diſtinction off the common welthe / and the churche hathe bene and owght to be kepte of al men / which hauehave ſpokē or written with any Iudgement / ſhall be ſhewed in the 20. Tractate: and therfore althowghe the anſwerer doo a 100. tymes repeete this thinge in bare affirmacions: yet the reader ſhall once for all / looke for the anſwer off thes thinges in thoſe places.
In his 8. ſection page 1. he ſpeaketh off the authoritie off the magiſtrate vppon no occaſion / to no purpoſe / with greate wordes / with no proofe. Then as thowghe I had written in vnknowne figures as the prieſtes of Aegypte: he complaineth of my obſcuritie / and that he can not vnderſtande what I meane: wheras I coulde hardely hauehave vſed greater light of ſpeache / if I had bente my ſelfe therunto. For I proue the ſinguler benefite that the diſcipline bringeth to the comon welthe / for that by the Eccleſiaſticall cenſures off admonition / reprehenſion / ſuſpenſion / &c. the leſſer faultes off lying / vncomely ieſting / and cholericke ſpeaking being met with all: the paſſage is ſtopped againſte the greater faultes off thefte / adultery / and murder. Wherin obſerue his vnfaithfull dealing / which feining him ſelfe not to vnderſtande that which my wordes doo fullie ſounde: doothe notwithſtanding forge thinges off me / wheroff there is not the ſmalleſt ynkling. For here vppon he aſketh / whether I thinke not the puniſhemet of thefte / and murther ſharpe enowghe / with diuers other which folow: vntounto all which ſylence yff they were handled as they deſerue / were the fitteſt anſwer. Howbeyt to ſhut vpp the mouthe off them / which ſeeke occaſion / I anſwer: that as the Eccleſiaſticall cenſures / ſhut not owte the ciuill puniſhementes / nor hinder not in any parte their courſe: ſo the ciuill puniſhementes can not diſplace the churche cenſures / conſidering that as the one is occupied in the puniſhement off the bodie / ſo the other is conuerſant in the inſtructing off the conſcience: and we hauehave a manifeſte example off the ioyning off them together in one / and the ſame action in the ſcripture. Where yt was ordeined / that he that came not at the daie appointed / ſhould be 10. Eſ… ▪puniſhed by the loſſe off goodes which was meere ciuill / and by ſeparation from the congregation / whiche was altogether Eccleſiaſticall howbeit it ſhal be ſufficient here to ſhewe / that where as the anſwerer ſhoulde hauehave diſputed againſte this that the Eccleſiaſticall cenſures together with the ciuille puniſhementes / hauehave more force to reſiſte ſynne / then the ciuill puniſhementes onelyonly: not being able to anſwer to the reaſon / as thoughe his noſe blead / turnethe a ſyde and looking another way / ſo reaſonethe / as if the queſtiō were / whether the ciuill puniſhement were off greater ſtrenght to holde owte ſinne / then the Eccleſiaſticall / which neither is / nor ſhallbe the queſtion at this time / yt is ſufficient that they be bothe neceſſarie. And whereas he aſketh whether the magiſtrate hathe not power to correcte lying / vncomely ieſting / cholericke ſpeaking (off which onelyonly queſtion he might ſeeme to hauehave ſome colour of occaſion giuen by my wordes) I anſwer that in ſaying that the magiſtrate doothe not cōmonly puniſhe them / I neither ſaye that either he maie not / or he will not (as he doothe vntrewlie ſurmiſe) but I had regarde vntounto the eſtate bothe of our comon welthe / and of all other which I knowe this daie / where there are for the moſte parte in thes caſes / no courtes or iudgemente ſeates / which doo once take knowledge off thes cauſes it being alſo a common principell / thar the lavve doothe not take care of ſmal things, as it is alledged in one of the lawe caſes / which is reported in Kinge Henry the eight his yeares. And in reſpecte that ſuche like matters are onelyonly corrected by thes cenſures off the churche / they are called off certeine conſiſtorie matters. And therfore I refuſe not onelie the iudgement off the indifferent but off the moſte enemy reader / which hathe but a ſparcke off equitie in him: How vntrew it is / that either we wringe the ſword by thes wordes owte off the magiſtrates hande / or ſuſpende the drawing off yt in anie reſpecte / vppon the pleaſure off the elderſhipp off the churche.
In the 9. ſection pag. 6. as thowghe the imperfection off the churche were not confeſſed off our partes / he ſetteth him ſelfe to proue / that men commit faultes as longe as they be in this liffe. Secondly to proue that the churche floriſheth with vsus / he alledgeth that the common wealthe floriſheth: wherunto forſomiche as it is with owt the compas off this treatiſe to medle with the recitall off the breaches off the common welthe / and there are other proofes enowghe to conuince the deformities off the churche: I will make no anſwer / ſauing that he muſte vnderſtande that in ſuppoſing diuers crackes in the common wealthe / we are ſo farre from ſtaining the carefull watche / and painefulnes off the godlie magiſtrate (as he ſurmiſeth) that his faithfull and godlie trauailes are rather herebie commended / who in ſo ſore a ſicknes / and amonges ſo manie partely vnfaithefull / and partely vnſkillfull phyſicions / hathe hetherto kept liffe in yt.
In the 10. ſection / pag. 6 where he ſaithe / that the threatening off the Prophethe appertaineth to other realmes / whiche Eſay 60. 12.refuſe ād perſequute the goſpell / and can not belonge vntounto ours: the diſcipline being as it is propounded / and offred to be proued / a parte off the goſpell / muſte needes arme the lorde againſte the refuſers and ſo miche the more / as it coming into the churche as into her home / is therfore more dangerouſlie reiected. And where the anſwerer in wordes calleth for fruicte off the goſpell: In this enemitie which he hathe with the diſcipline off the churche pulling downe the hedge wherwith the lordes orchyarde ſhoulde be falſe from the inuaſiō of hurtefull beaſtes: he is as freendlie to the fruictes of the goſpell / as the Eaſte winde is to the fruites of the earthe. For the Diſcipline off the churche being one off the moſte excellenteſt meanes that the lorde hathe ordeined / to cauſe the doctrine of the goſpell to fructifie: he is founde a nourice of that barennes againſte which he exhorteth.
In the 11. ſection pag. 7. he hathe broken his bridell againe / and in leuing the matter in hande / he run̄eth to his olde accuſations / wherunto I hauehave not to anſwer. That there ys no heade off the churche but onelyonly Chriſt / ſhall be ſhewed in the treatiſe off the Archebiſhopp / into whiche queſtion this falleth. And leſte nothing ſhoulde be ſaide for anſwer to that which I had ſet downe: the gloſſe hathe here charged me / that I make more off the gouernement then off the goſpell / whiche is a manifeſte vntrewthe / for I ſpeake of the diſcipline as off a parte off the goſpell / and therfore neither vnderunder / nor aboue the Goſpell / but the Goſpell. But the reaſon which he addeth is to be noted: for (ſaith he) he likeneth the eſtate off the churche / to the wandring in the wildernes. Firſte off all iff I did liken the eſtate off our churche now deſtitute off the diſcipline / vntounto the eſtate off the churche whiche was in the wildernes: there is wherwithe that ſimilitude is ſupported. For as diuers lawes were giuen vntounto the Iewes in Mounte Synay / the practiſe wheroff they coulde not hauehave / vntill they came into the lande off Canaan: euen ſo the doctrine off the Goſpell / cannot hauehave the full practiſe / vnles yt hauehave therunto ioyned the diſcipline. But to cut off all occaſion off cauilling / iff I had not fallen vponupon them that ſeeke yt / I expreſſed wherin the bringīg in of the diſcipline ſhoulde hauehave bene like the cōduction of the people into Canaan: not in that yt is ether better / or not ſo good as the doctrine off the goſpell: but in this / that as then the people had their full deliuerance / when they came into that lande: ſo we by this addition off Diſcipline to the doctrine off the goſpell / together with a whole and entier deliuerance owte off the thraldome off the popiſhe Aegyte / might hauehave greater fredome in the citie off God whiche is his churche.
The other Cauill is off the ſame ſorte. For as I propounded the vpright kinges to be folowed / in their whole and full reformacions: ſo thoſe which halted I ſet before / to the intente they ſhould be avoyded / in that their reformaciōs were not throwghe / and therfore where a reformacion is not full / althowghe the wante be not in the ſame poincte in whiche they were behinde: yet therin yt reſembleth thē / that as they / ſo this is vnperfecte. Beſide that it is vntrew that all thoſe kinges / which I ſaide to hauehave caried the marke and ſpott off their imperfection / ſuffred manifeſt Idolatrie / as it appeareth 1. Reg. 15.in the example off kinge Aſa. VntoUnto the nexte ſection I anſwer nothing.