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A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift · Thomas Cartwright

A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift, Reply · Part 38

The reply vntounto the three next ſections concerning the ſenyors / beginning in the latter end of the. 112. page / and holding on vntill the beginning of the. 118. page.

AS though M. Doctor were at vtter defiance with all good order / & Methode of wryting / that which was geuen hym orderly by the Admonition / he hath turned vpſyde downe. For where the Admonition ſpeaketh firſt of the elders / then of that which is annexed vntounto them / which is the dyſcipline (whereof excommunication is a part) conſydering that the ſubiect is in nature before that which is annexed vntounto it / M. Doctor hath turned it cleane contrary / and firſt ſpeaketh of excommunication / and then of the elders. I will therefore that the reader may the eaſelyer vnderſtand that which is ſayde / follow the order of the Admonition / and firſt of all ſpeake of the elders or ſenyors which ought to be in the church. And in ſpeaking of them / I muſt call to remembrance that diuiſion which I made mention on before / that is: Of thoſe which hauehave care and which gouerne the whole congregation / ſome there be which do both teache the word and gouerne alſo: ſome which doe not teach / but only gouerne / and be ayders in the gouernment / vntounto thoſe which doe teache. Thys dyuiſion is moſt manifeſtly ſet forth in the Epiſtle vntounto Timothe: where he ſayeth the elders 1. Tim. 5. 17.which rule well / are worthy of double honor / and eſpecially thoſe which labor in the word and doctryne / where he maketh by playne and expreſſe words two ſorts of elders / the one which doth both gouerne and teach: the other which gouerneth only. Theſe therefore are the ſenyors which are meant / whoſe office is in helping the paſtor or byſhop / in the gouernement of that particulare church / where they be placed paſtors and elders. Now that it is knowne what theſe ſenyors be / in entreating of them I am content to anſwere M. Doctor three requeſtes which he maketh in the. 125. page / where he deſireth that one would do ſo much for hym / as firſt to ſhew that theſe ſenyors were in eueryevery congregation: ſecondarely he will hauehave it proued that thys regiment is perpetual / and not to be altered: laſt of all he deſireth to know / whether theſe ſenyors were lay men / and not rather myniſters of the word and byſhops. Thys laſt is a fond requeſt / and ſuche as is alredy anſweared / but he muſt be followed. For the firſt therefore / which is / that there were ſegnyors in eueryevery congregation / although M. Doctor in the 114. page / and in the. 132. page / conſtrayned / by Amboſe authoritie / confeſſeth it in playne wordes / yet becauſe he requireth it to be ſhewed / and maketh a ieſt at thoſe places which are alledged out of the ſcripture to proue it / ſome thing muſte be ſpoken thereof. The firſt place is in the Actes / whych is / that Paule & Barnabas dyd appoynte by election / elders in euerie congregation / but it is not lyke they dyd appoynt dyuers miniſters or biſhops / which preached in eueryevery congregation / which were not to be had for ſuche a number of congregations as were Actes. 14. 23.then to bee preached vntounto: therefore in eueryevery congregation there were beſides thoſe that preached / other elders which dyd only in gouernment aſſiſt the paſtors which preached. And what ſhould we follow comectures heere / when S. Paule doth in the place before alledged declare / what theſe elders are. But M. Doctor 1. Tim. 5. 17.ſayeth that there is no mention made of the office of ſuch an elder: therefore that place maketh nothing to proue that there ſhoulde be ſuch elders in eueryevery congregation. So M. Doctor wryte / he careth not what he write. Belike he thinketh the credite of hys degree of Doctorſhyp / will geue waight to that which is light / and pithe to that which is froth / or elſe he would neuer anſwere thus. For then I will if thys be a good reaſon ſay / that for ſo much as S. Luke doth not in that Actes. 14. 17.place deſcribe the office of the paſtor or byſhoppe which preacheth the woorde / therefore that place proueth not that in eueryevery congregation there ſhould be a byſhop or a paſtor. Beſides that / M. Doctor taketh vp the authors of the Admonition for reaſoning negatiuely of the teſtimony of all the ſcriptures / and yet hee reaſoneth negatiuely of one only ſentence in the ſcripture. For he would conclude that for ſo much as there is no duetie of a ſenyor deſcribed in that place / therefore there is no duety at all / and conſequently no ſenyor.

Afterwardes he ſayeth / that for ſo much as thys place hath bene vſed to proue a paſtor or byſhop in eueryevery church / therfore it can not be vſed to proue theſe elders / ſo that (ſayeth he) there muſt needes be eyther a contradiction or elſe a falſification. The place is rightly alledged for both the one and the other / and yet neyther contradiction to them ſelues / nor falſification of the place: but only a muſt before M. Doctors eyes / which will not let hym ſee a playne and euident truth / which is / that the word (elder) is generall / and comprehendeth both thoſe elders which teach and gouerne / and thoſe which gouerne only / as hath bene ſhewed out of S. Paule. And whereas M. Doctor ſayeth / that the place of the Corinthes 2. Cor. 12.may bee vnderſtanded of cyuill magiſtrates / of preaching myniſters / of gouernoures of the whole churche / and not of eueryevery particulare churche / and fynally any thing / rather then that wherof it is in deede vnderſtanded: I ſay firſt that he ſtyll ſtumbleth at one ſtone / which is / that he can not put a difference betwene the church and common wealth: and ſo betwene the church officers which he there ſpeaketh of / and the officers of the common wealth / thoſe which are eccleſiaſticall: and thoſe which are cyuill. Then that he meaneth not the myniſter which proacheth / it may appeare / for that he had noted them before in the worde (teachers) and laſt of all he can not meane gouernoure of the whole church / onles he ſhoulde meane a Pope / and if he will ſay he meaneth an Archbyſhop which gouerneth a whole prouince / beſides that it is a bolde ſpeach without all warrant / I hauehave ſhewed before that the word of God alloweth of no ſuch office / and therefore it remayneth that it muſt be vnderſtanded of thys office of Elders. The ſame anſwere may be made vntounto that which he ſayeth of the place to the Romaines / where ſpeaking of the offyces of the church / after that hee had ſet forth Cap. 12.the office of the paſtor / and of the doctor / he addeth thoſe other two offices of the Churche / whereof one was occupyed in the gouernement only / the other in prouyding for the poore / and helping the ſicke. And if beſides the manifeſt words of the Apoſtle in both theſe places / I ſhoulde adde the ſentences of the wryters vponupon thoſe places / as M. Caluin / M. Beza / M. Martyr / M. Bucer. &c. It ſhould eaſely appeare / what iuſt cauſe M. Doctor hath to ſay / that it is to daily with the ſcriptures / and to make them a noſe of waxe / in alledging of theſe to proue the elders / that all men might vnderſtand / what terrible outcryes he maketh / as in thys place / ſo almoſt in all other / when there is cauſe / that he ſhoulde lay hys hand vponupon hys mouth.

Thys I am compelled to wryte / not ſo much to proue that there were ſenyors in eueryevery church (which is a thing confeſſed) as to redeame thoſe places from M. Doctors falſe and corrupt interpretations. And as for the proufe of elders in eueryevery congregation / beſydes hys confeſſion / I neede hauehave no more but hys owne reaſon: For he ſayeth that the office of theſe elders in eueryevery church / was in that tyme wherein there were no chriſtian magiſtrates / and when there was perſecution / but in the Apoſtles tymes there was both perſecution / and no chriſtian magiſtrates / therefore in theyr tyme the office of theſe elders was in eueryevery congregation. I come therefore to the ſecond poynt wherein the queſtion eſpecially lyeth / which is / whether thys function be perpetuall / and ought to remayne alwayes in the churche. And it is to be obſerued by the way / that where as there are dyuers ſortes of aduerſaryes to thys diſciplyne of the church / Maiſter Doctor is amongſt the worſt. For there be that ſaye / that thys order may be vſed or not vſed now / at the lybertie of the churches: But M. Doctor ſayeth that thys order is not for theſe tymes / but only for thoſe tymes when there were no chriſtian magiſtrates / and ſo doth flatly pinch at thoſe churches which hauing chriſtian magiſtrates / yet notwithſtanding retayne thys order ſtill.

And to the ende that the vanitie of thys diſtinction / which is / that there oughte to bee ſenyors or auncientes in the tymes of perſecution / and not of peace: vnderunder tyrantes and not vnderunder chriſtian magiſtrates may appeare: the cauſe why theſe ſenyors or auncientes were appoynted in the church / is to bee conſydered / which muſt needes be graunted to bee / for that the paſtor not being able to ouerſee all hym ſelfe / and to hauehave hys eyes in eueryevery corner of the church / and places where the churches aboade / might be helped of the auncientes. Wherin the wonderfull louelove of God towards hys church doth manifeſtly appeare / that for the greater aſſurance of the ſaluation of hys / dyd not content hym ſelfe to appoynt one only ouerſeer of eueryevery church / but many ouer eueryevery church.

And therefore ſeeing that the paſtor is now in the tyme of peace / and vnderunder a chriſtian magiſtrate not able to ouerſee all hym ſelfe / nor hys eyes can not bee in eueryevery place of the paryſhe preſent to beholde the behauiour of the people / it followeth that as well now as in the tyme of perſecution / as well vnderunder a chriſtian prince as vnderunder a tyrant / the office of an auncient or ſeignior is required. Onles you will ſay that God hath leſſe care of hys church in the time of peace and vnderunder a godly magiſtrate / then he hath in the tyme of perſecution / and vnderunder a tyrant. In deede if ſo bee the auncientes in the tyme of perſecution and vnderunder a tyrant / had medled with any office of a magiſtrate / or had ſupplyed the roume of a godly magiſtrate / in handling of any of thoſe things which belonged vntounto hym / then there had bene ſome cauſe why a godly magiſtrate being in the church / the office of the ſenior / or at leaſt ſo much as he exerciſed of the office of a magiſtrate / ſhuld hauehave ceaſed.

But when as the auncient neither dyd / nor by any meanes might meddle with thoſe things which belonged vntounto a magiſtrate / no more vnderunder a tyrant thē vnderunder a godly magiſtrate / there is no reaſon why the magiſtrate entring into the church / the elder ſhuld be therfore thruſt out. For the elders office was to admoniſh ſeuerally / thoſe that dyd amiſſe / to comfort thoſe which he ſaw weake & ſhaking / and to hauehave neede of comfort / to aſſiſt the paſtor in eccleſiaſticall cenſures of reprehenſions / ſharper or milder as the faultes required / alſo to aſſiſt in the ſuſpē ſions from the ſupper of the Lord vntill ſome triall were had of the repentance of that party which had confeſſed hym ſelfe to hauehave offended / or elſe if he remayned ſtubburne / to aſſiſt hym in the excommunicatiō. Theſe were thoſe things / which the elders dyd / which forſomuch as they may doe as well vnderunder a chriſtian magiſtrate / as vnderunder a tyrant / as well in the tyme of peace as in the tyme of perſecution / it followeth that as touching the office of elders / there is no diſtinction in the tymes of peace and perſecution / of a chriſtian prince and of a tyrant. But I will yet come nearer. That without the which / the principal offices of charitie can not be excerciſed / is neceſſary and alwayes to be kept in the church. But the office of auncients & elders are ſuch as with out which the principal offices of charity can not be exerciſed / therefore it followeth that thys office is neceſſary. That the principall offices of charity can not be exerciſed without thys order of auncientes / it may appeare for that he which hath faulted / and amendeth not after he be admonyſhed once priuately / and then before one wytnes or two / can not further be proceeded agaynſt / according to the commaundement of our ſauior Chriſt / onleſſe there be in the church / auncients and elders / therefore thys principall office of charitie / which tendeth to the amendment of hym which hath not profited by thoſe two former admonitions / can not be exerciſed without them. For it is cōmaunded of our ſauiour Chriſt / that in ſuch a caſe when a brother doth not profite by theſe Math. 18. 15.two warnings / it ſhould be tolde the church. Now I would aſke who be meant by the church heere / if he ſay by the church are meant all the people / then I will aſke how a man can conueniently complayne to all the whole congregation / or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of thys matter. I doe not deny / but the people hauehave an intereſt in the excommunication / as ſhall be noted heereafter / but the matter is not ſo farre come / for hee muſt firſt refuſe to obey the admonition of the church / or euer they can proceede ſo farre. Well / if it be not the people that be meant by the church / who is it? I heare M. Doctor ſay it is the paſtor / but if he will ſay ſo / and ſpeake ſo ſtraungely / he muſt warrant it wyth ſome other places of ſcripture where the church is taken for one / which is as much to ſay as one man is many / one member is a body / one alone is a company. And beſydes thys ſtrangenes of ſpeach / it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our ſauiour Chriſt / and deſtroyeth the ſoueraignitie of the medycine which our ſauiour Chriſt prepared for ſuch a feſtered ſore / as would neyther be healed with priuate admonition / neyther with admonition before one or two witneſſes. For as the fault groweth / ſo our ſauiour Chriſt woulde hauehave the number of thoſe before whome he ſhoulde be checked and rebuked / lykewiſe grow. Therefore from a priuate admonition he ryſeth vntounto the admonition before two or three / & from them to the church / which if we ſhould ſay it is but one / then to a daungerouſer wound ſhould be layde an eaſier plaiſter: and therefore our ſauiour doth not ryſe from two to one / (for that were not to ryſe but to fall / nor to proceede but to goe backward (but to many. Seeing then that the church heere is neyther the whole congregation / nor the paſtor alone / it followeth that by the church here he meaneth the paſtor / with the auncients or elders. Or elſe whome can he meane? And as for thys manner of ſpeach / wherein by the church is vnderſtanded the cheefe gouernours and elders of the church / it is oftentymes vſed in the olde Teſtament / from the which our ſauiour borowed thys maner of ſpeaking / as in Exodus it is ſayde. That Moſes wrought hys myracles before the people / when mention is 4. chap. 29. 30.made before / only of the elders of the people / whome Moſes had called together. And moſt manifeſtly in * Ioſue / where it is ſayde / that he that kylled a man at 20. chap. 4. 6.vnwares / ſhall returne vntounto the citie vntill he ſtand before the congregration to be iudged. Where by the congregation / he meaneth the gouernoures of the congregation / for it dyd not appertayne to all to iudge of thys caſe. Lykewyſe in the Chronicles / and dyuers other places. And therefore I conclude that forſomuch 1. li. 13. cap. 2. 4.as thoſe be neceſſary and perpetuall which are ſpoken of in thoſe wordes (tell the Church) and that vnderunder thoſe wordes are comprehended the elders or auncientes / that the elders and auncientes be neceſſary and perpetuall officers in the church. Furthermore S. Paule hauing entreated throughout the whole firſt Epiſtle to Timothe / of the orders which ought to be in the church of God / and of ye gouernment / as hym ſelfe wytneſſeth in ye third chapter of that Epiſtle (whē he ſayeth he wrote that Epiſtle to teach Timothe how he ſhoulde behaue hym ſelfe in the houſe of God) and hauing ſet forth both byſhoppe / and elder / and deacons / as myniſters and officers of the church / in the ſhutting vp of hys Epiſtle he (for the obſeruation of all the orders of that Epiſtle) adiureth Timothe / and 1. Tim. 6. 13. 14.with the inuocation of the name of God ſtrayghtly chargeth hym / to obſerue thoſe thinges which hee had preſcribed in that Epiſtle. I charge thee (ſayeth hee) before God which quickeneth all things / and before Ieſus Chriſt which witneſſed vnderunder Pontius Pilate a good profeſſion that thou keepe thys commaundement without ſpot or blemiſhe / vntill the appearing of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt. The wayght of which ſentence for the obſeruing of thoſe things which are mentioned in thys Epiſtle / that it may be the better vnderſtanded / I will note the wordes ſeuerally.

Firſt therefore it is to be noted that he ſayeth (I denounce or I charge.) He doth not ſay (I exhorte or giuegive counſell) leauing it to the lyberty of Timothe.

Secondarely it is to be noted / that he calleth the whole Epiſtle a commaū dement / and therefore it is no permiſſion / ſo that it may be lawfull for the churches to leaue it / or to keepe it.

Thirdly / when he maketh mention of the lyuing God / and of Chriſt / which witneſſed a good profeſſion vnderunder Pontius Pilate / he ſheweth that the thinges contayned in thys Epiſtle are ſuch / as for the mayntenaunce thereof wee ought not to doubt to geue our lyues / and that they be not ſuch as we ought to kepe / ſo that we hauehave them without ſtrife and without ſweate / or eaſely / but ſuch as for the keeping of them if we hauehave them / and for the obtayning of them if we hauehave them not (I will not ſay our honoures / or our commodities and wealth / but as I hauehave ſayd) our lyues ought not to be deare vntounto vsus. For therefore doth hee make mention of the confeſſion of Chriſt vntounto the death / that he might ſhew vsus an example / and forthwith ſpeaketh of God / which rayſeth from the dead / that by thys meanes he might comfort Timothe if he ſhould be brought into any trouble for the defence of any of theſe things.

Fourthly / if we refer thoſe wordes without ſpot or blemiſh vntounto the commaundement (as I for my part thinke they ought to be) then there is a waight in theſe words not to be paſſed ouer / which is / yt the apoſtle will not only hauehave the rules heere contayned / not troden vnderunder the feete / or broken in peeces / but hee will not hauehave them ſo much as in any one ſmall poynt or ſpecke neglected. But I ſee how M. Doctor will wype away all thys / and ſay that theſe thinges / or ſome of them were to bee obſerued thus neceſſarily and preciſely / vntill there were chriſtian prynces and peace in the churche: but the print is deeper then that it will bee ſo waſhed away. Therefore it is to be obſerued / what he ſayeth in the latter end of the ſentence / where he chargeth Timothe / and in hym all / that hee ſhould keepe all theſe things / not vntill the tyme of peace / or to the times of Chriſtian Princes / but euen vntill the comming or appearing of our ſauiour Chriſt / which is as long as the world laſteth. And therfore I conclude that the ſeigniors or elders of the church (being a part of that order and gouernment of the church / which S. Paule appoynteth in thys Epiſtle) are neceſſary / perpetuall / and by no meanes to be changed. So that we hauehave / not only now the examples of all the primitiue churches (which ought to moue vsus / if there were no commaundement) but we hauehave alſo a ſtraight commaundement: I ſay the onelyonly examples ought to moue vsus / for what way can we ſafelyer follow / then the common hygh way / beaten and troden by the ſteps of all the Apoſtles / and of all the churches? Things alſo growing / and being preſerued by the ſame meanes by the which they were ingendred / why ſhoulde we thinke but that the churches now will proſper by that gouernment / whereby it firſt came vp? But I ſay we hauehave not only the examples of the churches / but wee hauehave alſo commaundement and ſtrayght charge to keepe thys office of elders and auncientes in the church / and therefore it is not onelyonly raſhneſſe in leauing the way that the Apoſtles and churches by the Apoſtles aduiſe hauehave gone / but diſobedyence alſo to depart from theyr commaundement / and to mayntayne and defend that we may doe ſo / I can almoſt geue it no gentler name then rebellion.

Now I will come to Mayſter Doctors reaſons which he hath in the hundreth and fourteene / and a hundred and fifteene pages / where he graunteth that there were elders in eueryevery church in tymes paſt / but ſayth that it ought not now ſo to bee. For ſayeth hee / the tymes alter the gouernment / and it can not be gouerned in the tyme of proſperitie / as in the tyme of perſecution / vnderunder a chriſtian prince as vnderunder a tyrant. Thus he ſayeth / but ſheweth no reaſon / bringeth no proofe / declareth not how nor why proſperity will not beare the Elders as well as perſecution / neyther why they may not be vnderunder a godly prince as well as vnderunder a tyrant / onles thys be a reaſon / that becauſe the godly prince doth nouriſhe the church as a cyuill magiſtrate / therefore the auncientes may not nouriſh it as Eccleſiaſticall ouerſeers.

Now ſeeing Maiſter Doctor can ſhew vsus no cauſe why they may not as well be now / as in the tyme of the Apoſtles / as well vnderunder a chriſtian prince as vnderunder a tyrant / I will ſhew hym that although they be alwayes neceſſary / yet there is better cauſe why they ſhould rather be now then in the apoſtles times / greater neceſſyty vnderunder a chriſtian prince / then vnderunder a tyrant. Firſt of all in the apoſtles tymes it is knowne that the giftes of the ſpirite of wiſedome / diſcretion / knowledge / enduring of trauaile / were poured forth more plentifully then euer they were / eyther before / or ſhall be after. By reaſon whereof the paſtoures and myniſters of the churches that were then / were (I ſpeake generally / and of the eſtate of the whole Church) better furnyſhed with the giftes needefull for their myniſtery / then are the myniſters of theſe dayes. Wherupon I conclude that if the ayde and aſſiſtance of the paſtor by the Elders / was thought neceſſary by the apoſtles in thoſe tymes / when the myniſters were ſo well / and ſo richly repleniſhed with ſuch giftes / much more is that ayde and aſſiſtance meete for the myniſters of theſe dayes / wherein their giftes of diſcretion and knowledge / and dyligence / are not ſo plentifull. For if they whoſe eye ſight was ſo cleare to perceiue / whoſe handes ſo nimble to execute / had neede for their ayde / of other eyes & other handes / then the myniſters now / whoſe eyes are dimmer / and hands heauier then theirs were / hauehave much more neede of thys ayde then they had.

Agayne / if S. Paule dyd charge the perſecuted / & therefore pore churches / 1. Epiſt. 5. 17.with the fineding and prouiding for the ſenyors in eueryevery church (as it appeareth in the Epiſtle to Timothe / where he ſayeth that Elders whiche rule well / are worthy double honour / whereby he ſignifyeth a plentifull rewarde / and ſuche as may be fully ſufficient for them and their houſholdes / as when he biddeth that the widdow which ſerued the churche in attending vponupon the ſicke / and vppon the ſtraungers ſhoulde be honoured / that is / hauehave that wherewyth ſhee might honeſtly and ſoberly liue) if I ſay Saynt Paule woulde charge the churches then with mayntayning the elders / which being poore / were not ſometimes hable to liue without ſome reliefe from the church / becauſe they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affaires / to wayte of the affaires of the church: how much more ought there now to be ſenyors / when the churches be in peace / and therefore not ſo pore / and when there may be choſen ſuch for the moſt part thoroughout the realme / as are able to liue without charging the church any whit / as the practiſe of theſe dayes doth manifeſtly declare.

And if S. Paule that was ſo deſirous to hauehave the goſpell adapanon, that 1. Cor. 9. 18.is / free and without charges as much as is poſſible / and ſo loth to lay any burthen vponupon the churches / eſpecially thoſe which were poore / dyd notwithſtanding enioyne the mayntenaunce of the elders vntounto the churches poore and perſecuted / how much more ſhall we thincke / that hys mynde was that the Churches which liue in peace / and are rich / and may hauehave thys office without charge / ought to receiue thys order of auncientes?

Moreouer thoſe that be learned know / that the gouernement of the church which was in the apoſtles tymes / being partly in reſpect of the people that had to doe in the elections and other things popular: partly in reſpect of the paſtors and auncientes Ariſtocraticall / that is the rule of the beſt: I ſay they know that theſe gouernmentes do eaſely declyne into their contraries / and by reaſon therof both the gouernment of thoſe which were moſt vertuous / might eaſely be chaunged into the gouernment of few of the richeſt / or of greateſt power / and the populare eſtate might eaſely paſſe to a confuſed tumulte. Now thys incommoditie were they more ſubiect vntounto vnderunder a tyrant / then vnderunder a godly prince. For they had no cyuill magiſtrate which might correct and reforme thoſe declyninges when they happened. For the tyrantes dyd not know of it / and if they had known of it / they would hauehave bene glad to ſee the churches goe to wracke. Therfore now we hauehave a godly ciuil magiſtrate / which both wil & ought to remedy ſuch declinings & conuerſions of good gouernment into euill / it followeth that thys eſtate & gouernmēt by auncientes / is rather to be vſed vnderunder a chriſtian prince then vnderunder a tyrant.

Beſides thys / in the tyme of perſecution all aſſemblyes of dyuers together were daungerous and put them all in hazard of their lyfe which dyd make thoſe aſſemblies: And therefore if the paſtor alone might hauehave ordered and determyned of things pertayning to the church by hym ſelfe / it had bene leſſe daunger to him / and more ſafety for others of the Church. And therfore if the ſenyors were then thought meete to gouerne the church / when they could not come together to exerciſe their functions without daunger / much more ought they to be vnderunder a chriſtian prince / when they may meete together without daunger.

M. Doctor proceedeth / & ſayeth it can not be gouerned in a whole realme / as it may be in a citie or town. This gouernment by ſenyors is not only in one citie / but alſo hath beene of late throughout the whole realme of Fraunce / where there were any churches: and M. Doctor confeſſeth that it was in all the primitiue churches / and therefore not onelyonly in one realme / but almoſt throughout the whole world / and therefore the large ſpreading of the church / can not hynder it. So that the difference lyeth ſtill in the peace and perſecution of the Church / and not in the capacitie and largeneſſe of the place where the churches abyde. So might one reaſon agaynſt the lawfull eſtate of a Monarchie: For he might ſay that although the rule of one be needefull and conuenient in a houſholde / yet it is not conuenient in a towne / and although it be conuenient in a towne / yet it is not in a citie / and although in a citie / yet not in a realme.

To be ſhort ſayeth hee / when he can ſay no more / it can not be gouerned when it is full of hypocrites / Papiſtes / Atheiſtes / and other wicked perſons / as in the times of perſecution / when there were few or none ſuch. I hauehave ſhewed before / how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth / to ſay that Papiſtes and Atheiſtes be of the church / and I louelove not as Maiſter Doctor doth to vſe often repetition / but if there bee now moe hypocrites & other wicked and vnruely parſones in ye church / then there were in the tyme of perſecution (which I wil not deny) thē there is greater cauſe now / why there ſhould be ſenyors in eueryevery churche / then there was then when there were fewer. For the more naughty perſons / and the greater diſorders there be / the more ayde and helpe hath the paſtor neede to hauehave / both to finde out their diſorders / and alſo when they hauehave founde them out / to iudge of the qualitie of them / and after alſo to correct them with the cenſures of the church / which ſtandeth in ſuch reprehenſions priuate and open / and excommunication / as I hauehave before rehearſed.

Afterwarde he aſketh what ſenyors may bee had in moſt of the paryſhes of Englande fitte for that office? he aſketh the ſame queſtion in the. 133. page / where he alſo addeth paſtors / aſking where may be gotten ſuch paſtoures as the authors of the Admonition require / when as they require no other then thoſe which the word of God requireth. Well then if thys be a good reaſon why there ſhould be no elders in any church / becauſe fitte men are not to be gotten in all paryſhes: it followeth by M. Doctors reaſon / that foraſmuch as we hauehave not fit and able paſtors for eueryevery church / that therfore we ought to hauehave no able paſtor in any church.

And if he will graunt that we ought to hauehave able paſtoures in as many places as they may be gotten: how can he deny / that wee ſhould hauehave elders in thoſe churches where fitte men may bee had. And I ſay further / where wee hauehave an expreſſe commaundement layde vponupon vsus to doe a thing / there all diſputations muſt ceaſe / of hardenes / of impoſſibility / or profite / or elſe of peace. For firſt God hath not commaunded any orders in hys churche which are impoſſible / and if they ſeeme harde / it muſt bee remembred / that the beſt and excellenteſt things are hardeſt / and that there is nothing ſo harde / which dyligence and trauayle to bring it to paſſe / will not ouercome. Which thing if it bee proued true in worldly affaires / the truth therof will much more appeare in the matters pertayning vntounto God / conſidering that if God with hys bleſſing doe ſurmount all the difficultyes in worldly matters whych are otherwyſe harde to be compaſſed / hee will in hys owne matters / and matters pertayning to hys glory / fill vp the valleys / although they be neuer ſo low / bring downe the hylles / althoughe they bee neuer ſo high / playne the wayes be they neuer ſo rough: ſo that he will make of a way not paſſable in the eyes of fleſh / away tracked and eaſie to goe in / and to walke towardes that kingdome / whereunto hee calleth vsus. Beſides that / I anſwere whereſoeuer there is a churche / there are the riches of the ſpirite of God / there is wyth knowledge / diſcretion & wiſdom / and there are ſuche as * S. Paule calleth wiſe / 1. Cor. 10. 15.and can diſcerne and iudge. And wee ſee that when men are called to a lawfull and profitable calling / and eſpecially to a publike calling / God doth powre on hys giftes of that perſon which is called ſo plentifully / that hee is as it were ſodenly made a newe manne / which if he do in the wicked as Saule was / there is no 1. Sam. 10. 6.doubt but he will doe it in thoſe / which are with the teſtimony of the church / and with experience of their former godly behauiour / choſen to ſuch offices of waight. So that there is not / nor can not bee any want to obey Goddes commaundement / and to eſtabliſhe the order in the church whych God hath appoynted / but our owne eyther neglygence and ſlouthfulnes / or fearefulnes / or ambition / or ſome other leuen which we nouriſh within our ſelues. It is true / that we ought to be obedyent vntounto the cyuill magiſtrate / which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vntounto hym / and according to that calling. But it muſt be remembred / that cyuil magiſtrates muſt gouerne it according to the rules of God preſcribed in hys word / & that as they are nouriſes / ſo they be ſeruauntes vntounto the church / and as they rule in the churche / ſo they muſt remember to ſubiect them ſelues vntounto the churche / to ſubmit their ſcepters / to throw downe their crownes / before the church / yea as the Prophet ſpeaketh / to licke the duſt of the Eſay. 49. 23.feete of the churche. Wherein I meane not / that the churche doth eyther wring the ſcepters out of Princes hands / or taketh their crownes from their heads / or that it requireth Princes to licke the duſt of her feete (as the Pope vnderunder thys pretence hath done) but I meane as ye Prophet meaneth / that whatſoeuer magnificence / or excellencye / or pompe / is eyther in them or in their eſtates and common wealthes / whych doth not agree wyth the ſimplicity / and in the iudgement of the world) poore and contemptible eſtate of the church / that that they will be content to lay downe.

And heere commeth to my minde / that wherwyth the world is now deceyued / and wherwyth M. doctor goeth about bothe to deceiue him ſelfe and others to / in that he thinketh that the church muſt be framed according to the common wealth / and the church gouernment accordyng to the ciuill gouernment / whych is as much to ſay / as if a man ſhuld faſhion hys houſe according to hys hāgings / when as in deede it is cleane contrary / that as the hangings are made fit for the houſe / ſo the common wealth muſt be made to agree wyth the church / and the gouernment therof wyth her gouernmēt. For as the houſe is before the hangings / & therefore the hangings whych come after / muſt be framed to the houſe whych was before: ſo the church being before there was any common wealthe / and the common wealthe comming after / muſte be faſhioned and made ſutable vntounto the church. Otherwyſe God is made to geue place to men / heauen to earth / and religion is made (as it were) a rule of Leſbia / to be applyed vntounto any eſtate of common wealth whatſoeuer.

Seing that good men / that is to ſay the church / are as it were the foundation of the worlde / it is meete that the common wealthe whych is builded vppon that foundation / ſhould be framed according to the churche / & therfore thoſe voyces ought not to be heard / thys order will not agree wyth oure common wealth / that lawe of God is not for our ſtate / thys forme of gouernment will not matche wyth the pollicy of thys realme.

Nowe to come againe to M. Doctors reaſons / he ſayeth in the. 133. page / that if they vrge gouernoures becauſe they are ſpoken of in the. 12. to the Corin. then they may as well vrge the power to worke miracles / the gift of healing. &c. for that they are likewyſe reckened vp in the ſame place. But dothe not M. doctor know / that although ſome thyngs be extraordinarye / and for a time / yet other ſome thyngs are ordinary / and to endure alwayes? Will he ſay for that the gifts of miracles and of healing are extraordinarye / therefore the teachers whych are there reckened together wyth the gift of working miracles and of healing are extraordinary? hath he forgotten that he (in deede vntruely) made before the office of Apoſtles and Prophets / and Euangeliſts / a perpetual office / and yet they are there ioyned wyth theſe gifts whych were but for a time / and therfore it is a very abſurde argument to ſaye / that for that ſome thyng reckened with gouernors / is for a time / and extraordinary / therfore the gouernors be ſo. As for Muſculus authoritye / whych is / that the tymes do chaunge the orders / beſides that I hauehave anſweared before / and beſides that he dothe not ſpeake it of the Elders / I hauehave proued that it can hauehave no place heere / for ſo much as the Elders are neceſſarye / and commaunded in the ſcripture.

VntoUnto the authors of the Admonition ſaying that it is eaſier to ouerthrowe by bryving / one man / then the fayth and piety of a godly company: he anſweareth / that ſo it ſhould come to paſſe / that the moe that ruled / the better eſtate it ſhoulde be / and ſo the populare eſtate ſhould be the beſt. But where do the authors of the admonition ſay / that the more that rule / the better it is? is it all one to ſaye / that the gouernment of a fewe of the beſt / is better then the gouernment of one / and to ſaye / the more that rule the better? If it were to the purpoſe / it myghte be ſhewed both by Diuinitye and by Philoſophye / whych M. Doctor ſpeaketh of / that that eſtate whych he meaneth / is not the beſt: and I hauehave in a word before ſpoken of it / where I declared that the mixed eſtate is beſt / bothe by the example of the kingdome of Chriſt / and alſo of thys our realme. It is ſufficient nowe to admonyſhe you / that although it be graunted that the gouernment of one / be the beſt in the common wealth / yet it can not be in the church. For the Prince may wel be Monarche immediately betwene God & the common wealth / but no man can be Monarche betwene God & hys church but Chriſt / whych is the only head therof. Therfore the Monarchie ouer the whole church / and ouer eueryevery particulare church / and ouer eueryevery ſingular membre in the church / is in Chryſt alone.

Laſt of all / to proue that there ought to be no ſenyors in the church vnderunder a Chriſtian prince / he citeth Ambroſes authority both in the. 114. and. 132. pages / whych ſayeth that the ſinagogue or church of the Iewes / & after that the church of the chryſtians had ſenyors / wythout whoſe counſell nothyng was done in the church: whervpon he concludeth / that for as much as they were not in Ambroſe tyme / therfore they were not vnderunder a chriſtian prince. And heere M. doctor hath in one ſentence proclaimed bothe hys great ignorance in the whole ſtorye of the churche / and wythall eyther a maruellous abuſion / and ſuffering hym ſelfe to be miſled by ſome vnaduyſed prompter / or ſubtile foxe that thought to deceyne him / or elſe a notable euill conſcience / whych wraſtleth agaynſt the truthe. Hys ignorance doth appeare partly in that he ſayeth / that becauſe there were no ſenyors in Amb. church / and in thoſe churches about hym / therefore there was none at all: but moſte manifeſtly in that he ſayeth / for ſo much as there were no ſenyors in Amb. time / therefore there was none vnderunder a chriſtian Prince / as though there were not many yeres before Amb. tyme chriſtian Emperors / when as betwene the tyme of S. Ambroſe being byſhop / and the tyme of Phillip ſucceſſor of Gordias the firſt chriſtian Emperor / there is more then a. 150. yeares / and betweene the time of Conſtantine the Emperor / and the tyme of Ambroſe being byſhop / there be aboue. 80. yeares. And if M. Doctor had euer red the eccleſiaſticall ſtoryes / he mought hauehave founde eaſely the elderſhyp moſte flouriſhyng in Conſtantines tyme / and other tymes / when as the peace of the chryſtians was greateſt.

And that the preſbyterie or elderſhyp endured in the church after Ambroſe tyme / and in the tyme of peace / and as it is very lyke in Amb. tyme / although not where he was / it may be ſhewed plainly by Ierome (whych folowed Ambroſe 4. Tom. 2. lib. in Iſalam.immediatlye) who in hys third chapter vponupon Eſay / ſayeth that they had alſo the preſbyterie or elderſhyp in the church. The ſame myght be ſhewed by diuers other teſtimonies / whych I omit / becauſe that it may appeare by the former treatiſe touchyng the election of the myniſter / that thys order of elderſhyp continued in the church diuers hundreth yeares after Ambroſe tyme / euen as long almoſte as there was any ſound part of the church / from the head to the heele. Nowe I hauehave ſhewed the ignorance / it remayneth to ſhewe howe that eyther M. Doctor was maruellouſly hym ſelfe abuſed / or elſe deſyreth to abuſe other. For if wheras he toke halfe Ambroſe ſentence / he had taken the other halfe wyth hym / and had not ſodenly ſtopped hys breath that he ſhould ſpeake no more / in ſteade of a falſe wytnes agaynſt the elderſhyp / he ſhould hauehave brought forthe as cleare and as flat a witnes for the proofe of them / as a man coulde deſire out of an auncient wryter. The whole ſentence is thys / ſpeakyng of thys offyce of the elders / (although not vponupon ſo good occaſyon) thus he ſayeth: Whervpon the ſinagoge / and Ambroſe vponupon 1. Tim. chap. 5after the church had elders / wythout whoſe counſell nothyng was done in the church / whych Elders I know not by what neglygence they are worne out / onles it be through the ſlouthfulnes of the doctors / or rather throughe theyr pryde / whyleſt they only would ſeeme to be ſomewhat.

Now that I hauehave ſhewed the place / I wyll ſay no more / I wyl leaue it to M. Doctor to thinke of it in his chamber by hym ſelfe / and ſo will conclude this queſtion: that for ſo much as thys order is ſuch / as wythout whych / the principall offices of charity can not be exercyſed: and that it is that which is commaū ded by the ſcryptures / approued and receyued by all the churches in the Apoſtles tymes / and many hundreth yeares after in the moſt flouryſhing churches / bothe in tyme of peace / & in tyme of perſecution: and that there are greater cauſes why it ſhould be in the tyme of peace / then in tyme of perſecution / why rather vnderunder a chriſtian prince / then vnderunder a tyrant / why rather now / then in ye apoſtles times / that in conſyderation of theſe things / the elderſhyp is neceſſary / and ſuch an order as the church ought not to be wythout. And ſo alſo is anſweared the third queſtion / that for ſo much as they were church offycers / and ouer the people in matters Heb. 13. 17.pertayning to God / & ſuch as watched ouer the ſoules of men / that therfore although they were not paſtors to preach the word / yet were they no lay men (as they terme them) but eccleſiaſticall perſons. The reſt comprehended in theſe ſections / is anſweared before / being matter whych pertayned vntounto the archbyſhop.

Nowe I returne backe agayne to Excommunicacion / whych M. Doctor thynketh to be the only diſciplyne in the church / but he ſhuld vnderſtand / that beſyde that parte of priuate diſciplyne / (whych is ordinarily and dayly to be exerciſed by eueryevery one of the paſtors & elders / as Admonition and reprehenſion) there are .iij. princypal parts / whych are exerciſed of them ioyntly and together / wherof the firſt is the election or choyſe / and the abdication or putting out of Eccleſiaſticall officers. The ſecond is in excommunication of the ſtubburne / or abſolution of the repētant. The third is the deciſion of all ſuch matters as doe ryſe in the church / eyther touchyng corrupt manners / or peruerſe doctryne.

As touchyng the election / and conſequently the throwing out / it hath bene ſhewed before / that together wyth the churche / the elderſhyp hathe the principall ſway. For the deciſion of controuerſyes whē they ryſe / it may appeare in the. 15. of the Acts / that the Preſbyterie or Elderſhyp of the churche hath to determine of that alſo. Nowe it remayneth heere / that whereas M. Doctor ſayeth that the Excommunication / and conſequently the abſolution or reſtoryng to the church agayne / doth pertayne only to the miniſter / that I ſhewe that the Preſbyterye or elderſhip / and the whole church alſo / hath intereſt in the Excommunication / and conſequently in the abſolution or reſtoryng vntounto the churche. But heere by the way it is to be noted / that in ſaying that it belongeth to the miniſter / he confeſſeth the dyſorder in our church / wherin this power is taken away from the miniſter / and geuen to the byſhop and hys offycers.

Nowe that thys charge of excommunication belongeth not vntounto one / or to the minyſter / but cheefely to the elderſhyp and paſtor / it appeareth by that whych the authors of the admonition alledge out of S. Mathewe / whych place I hauehave Chap. 18. 17.proued before to be neceſſarily vnderſtāded of the elders of the church. It is moſt abſurdly ſayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page / that by the church is vnderſtanded eyther my Lordes grace / or the byſhop of the dioceſe / or the Chancellor or Commiſſarye. And that when a man complayneth vntounto one of theſe / he may be well ſayd to complayne vntounto the church: whych is the more vntollerable / for that being ſo ſtraunge a ſaying / and ſuche as may aſtonyſhe all that heare it / he neyther confirmeth it by any reaſon / or lyke phraſe of ſcrypture / or by the authority of any godly or approued wryter olde or newe / whych notwythſtanding he ſeeketh for ſo diligently / and turneth the commentaries in hys ſtudy ſo painefully / when he can hauehave but one againſt twentye / and but a ſillable where he can not hauehave a ſentence. It may be the clearlyer vnderſtanded / that the preſbyterie or elderſhip / had the cheefe ſtroke in this excōmunication / if it be obſerued / that thys was the pollicy and diſcipline of the Iewes / and of the ſmagogue from whence our ſauyoure Chriſt toke this / and tranſlated it vntounto this church / that when any man had don any thing that they held for a fault / that then the ſame was puniſhed and cenſured by the Elders of the church / according to the quality of the faulte / as it maye appeare in S. Mathewe. For althoughe it be of ſome (and thoſe very learned) Chap. 5. 22.expounded of the ciuill iudgement / yet for ſo muche as the Iewes had nothyng to do wyth ciuill iudgements (the ſame being altogyther in the hands of the Romaines) and that the word ſan…drim, corrupted of the Greeke worde ſynedrion, whych S. Mathewe vſeth / is knowen by thoſe that hauehave ſkill in the Rabbins / and eſpecially the Iewes Talmud, to ſignifye the eccleſiaſticall gouernors / there can be no doubt but he meaneth the eccleſiaſticall cenſures. And if the fault were iudged very great / then the ſentence of Excommunication was awarded by the ſame elders / as appeareth in S. Iohn. And thys was the cauſe why our ſauioure Chap. 9. 22.Chriſte ſpake ſo ſhortly of thys matter in the. 18. of S. Mathew / wythout noting the circumſtances more at large / for that he ſpake of a thyng whych was well knowne and vſed amongſt the Iewes whome he ſpake vntounto. And that this was the meaning of our ſauioure Chriſte in thoſe wordes / it may appeare by the practiſe whych is ſet forthe in the Epiſtles to the Corinthians. For it is certain that S. Paule dyd bothe vnderſtand and obſerue the rule of our ſauyor Chriſt. But he communicateth thys power of Excommunication wyth the church / and therfore it muſt needes be the meaning of oure ſauioure Chriſte / that the excommunication ſhould be by many / and not by one / and by the church / and not by the miniſter of the church alone. For he biddeth the church of Corinthe twiſe in the firſt Epiſtle / once by a Metaphore / an other time in playne woordes / that they ſhould excommunicate the inceſtuous perſon. By metaphore / ſaying: (purge out your olde leauen) in playne and flat words / when he ſayeth (take away that wicked Chap. 5. 7. 13.man from amongſt you.) And in the ſecond Epiſtle vnderſtanding of the repentance of that man / he entreateth them that they would receyue hym in again / 2. Cor. 2. 10.ſhewing that he was content to releaſe the bonde and chaine of hys excommunication / ſo that they wold do the ſame / and therefore conſydering the abſolution / or reconciliation of the excommunicate / dothe pertaine vntounto the church / it foloweth that the excommunication doth in lyke manner appertaine vntounto it.

Now / wheras M. Doctor vponupon thoſe wordes of S. Paule / that he being abſent in body / and preſent in ſpirite / had determined. &c. concludeth yt the ryght of excommunication was in S. Paule / and not in the reſt / it is as much as if he ſhould ſay / S. Paule as much as lay in hym excommunicated / therfore ſ. Paule excommunicated: or S. Paule excommunicated / therefore the churche dyd not. For what if S. Paule dyd excommunicate hym ſo muche as lay in hym / ſhoulde he therfore hauehave bene excommunicated / if the church of Corinthe / and the minyſter there would hauehave admitted hym to the ſupper / and not abſtaine from familiare companying wyth hym? You will ſay he ſhould hauehave bene bounde in heauen and before God / although the church of Corinthe had not put hym forthe. It is true that the apoſtles denunciation of Gods vengeance vponupon the impenitent ſinner / is ratifyed in heauen / and ſo ſhoulde he alſo hauehave bene if S. Paule had ſayd nothyng / and yet S. Paule dyd not excommunicate the inceſtuous perſone / but ſo much as lay in hym / and as farre as hys ryght ſtretched: not being therfore yet excommunicated by S. Paule / it foloweth that the church had a ſtroke in the excommunication. Againe / to proue that the church hath nothyng to doe wyth excommunication / it is not enoughe to ſay that S. Paule had the ryght of excommunication: But you ſhoulde hauehave ſhewed that he only had it / and then you are manifeſtly conuicted by S. Paules own words / whych ioyneth the church with hym in that excommunication / ſaying that he had decreed that the doer of that fact (by hys ſpirite / and them gathered together in the name of Ieſus Chriſte / and by hys power) ſhould be geuen to ſathan. And if the right of excommunication were only in S. Paule / how is it that you ſayd before / that it is in the miniſter of the churche? had the miniſter of the churche of Corinthe nothing to doe? And if it were in S. Paule alone / why doth he chide wyth the church / that they had not already excommunicated hym before he wrote vntounto them to ſignifye hys wyll to excommunicate? or if it were in the miniſter of the church only / why w… S. Paule chide and ſharply rebuke the church / for that the inceſtuous man was not caſt forthe? Why doth he charge the Corinthians wyth that whych was the only fault of the miniſter?

An other obiection M. doctor hath out of the .16. of S. Mathew / and the 20. of Iohn / in whych places becauſe he giueth power to the .xij. to bynde and to loſe / M. Doctor will conclude that they only hauehave power to binde and to loſe. Salomon ſayeth that the iuſt man is firſt the accuſer of himſelfe / and therfore it Prou. 18. 17.behoued M. doctor or euer he ſhuld hauehave accuſed the authors of the Admonition of dalying and vnreuerent handlyng of the ſcriptures / to hauehave firſt of all ſpoken to him ſelfe / and hauehave ſtrickē him ſelfe vponupon the thigh. For if thys be not to abuſe the ſcriptures / I knowe not what is to abuſe them / for to let paſſe that ſome and of the auncient wryters do expounde the place of S. Mathewe of eueryevery membre of Chriſt / and of as many as hauehave faith to confes Chriſt to be the ſome of God / and ſo by that meanes to hauehave power of excommunication / I ſay to let that goe / M. doctor myght eaſely know if he would / that in that pla…e our ſauyor Chriſt ſpeaketh of the binding and loſing whych …y ye preaching of the word of God / ſtandyng in threates and promyſes / and therefore that binding pertayneth only vntounto the miniſters / to whom the preachyng doth only belong. But in the .18. of S. Mathewe where he ſpeaketh of the binding and loſing by excommunication and receyuing to the churche agayne / there he attributeth thys power vntounto the church. He hath an other obiection out of S. Paule to Timothe / where for that it is ſayde that ſ. Paule dyd excommunicate Hymineus and Alexander / he concludeth after hys old manner / that therfore he only excommunicated. But for ſo much as I hauehave proued that both the rule of Chriſt / & the practiſe of S. Paule accordyng to that rule / be otherwyſe / it can not be that S. Paule dyd excommunicate hym ſelfe alone thoſe perſons: for then he ſhould diſagree bothe wyth our ſauyor Chriſt and wyth hym ſelfe. But as I hauehave ſhewed before in other eccleſiaſtical actions and exerciſes of diſcipline / that one man is ſayd to do that which was done of many / for becauſe one was moderator of that action or exerciſe: ſo ſ. Paul here ſayeth that he dyd excommunicate / not that he dyd it by hym ſelfe alone / but becauſe he was preſident & cheefe in that action. And although it ſhuld be graunted (whych can not) that S. Paule dyd excommunicate hymſelfe alone (being an apoſtle / or for one tyme) yet it neyther foloweth that the byſhop or miniſter may do that whych the apoſtle dyd / or that he may do continually ye which was done but once and extraordinarily. As for the place of Titus the thirde / it maketh nothyng to excommunication / onles you wold conclude that for that S. Paule biddeth Titus to trouble hymſelfe no more wyth confuting an obſtinate hereticke / therfore he biddeth hym excommunicate an hereticke by hym ſelfe. As touching Bafiles place in the ſecond booke of Offices when the booke commeth forth & is Printed / then it ſhalbe anſwered / as for me I know of none ſuch that is extant now. To the reſt I will anſwer wyth thys proteſtation / that if all men ſhould do contrary to the order of God / yet their authority or example ought not to hauehave the waight of a fether / which I hauehave ſaid before / & do vnderſtand it in all places wher I do not expres it / & wyth this I come to M. doctors authorities.

And as for Theodoretus byſhop of Laodicea / whych Sozomene maketh mention of in hys ſixthe booke / I finde none ſuche / but there is mentioned of one Theodotus / who is ſayd to hauehave ſeperated or excommunicated Apollinaris / but it doth not appeare there that he alone of hys owne authority dyd excommunicate hym. And there be great reaſons in that Chapter / to proue that he dyd it not of hys owne authority / for immediatly after his hereſy was knowne / Damaſus biſhop of Rome / and Peter biſhop of Alexandria / cauſed a ſinode to be gathered at Rome / where hys hereſy was condemned. Now for ſo much as the cuſtome of ſynodes and councels is / when they condenme the hereſyes / to excommunicate the heretickes / it is to be thoughte that that councell dyd excommunicate hym / and that Theodotus byſhop of Laodicea / dyd execute that decree and excommunication. And in deede Sozomene doth ſo expound hym ſelfe / when immediatly after he had ſayde that he dyd excommunicate him / he addeth acoinonetoh auton apophainei, whych is / that he declared him excommunicate / whych in deede properly belongeth to the miniſter / when the excommunication is decreed by thoſe to whō it appertaineth. Whych thing may yet better appeare by the manner of ſpeache whych is vſed in an other place / where ſpeaking of …ictor excommunycating Theodotus / he vttereth it by thys apekeryxe, whych is to promulgate or pronounce the ſentence whych was decreed by others. As for Amb. although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperor / yet he was neuer commended / for that he did excommunicate him himſelfe alone: and if he dyd excommunicate him himſelfe alone / yet hys fault was the les / for ſo much as he being deſirous of an elderſhyp / could not as it ſemeth by hys complaint (which I hauehave ſpoken of before) …aine one. And although the ſtoryes doe not make mention y• there were others / whoſe authority came into thys excommunication / yet it followeth not y• there were no other. And how often wil you ſtomble at that / which you do ſo ſharply reproue in others / whych is in making of arguments of authority negatiuely? And if you will not graūt thys manner of reaſonyng in the ſcripture / in matters pertaining to the gouernment of the church / whych are all comprehended in the ſcripture / how would you reaſon of a common ſtory / whych neither can / nor dothe profeſſe to ſpeake all thoſe things whych fall into that matter whych it wryteth of? But what if ſo be it be proued that Ambroſe did not this of hys owne authoritye / but by the authoritye alſo of others / will you then confeſſe that he is commended of all thoſe whych wryte ſtories for ſo doing / and confeſſe that the vſe and practiſe of the primitiue church was far from thys that is nowe? For proufe whereof I will geue you a place whych Ambroſe the beſt wytnes of thys matter hath in one of his epiſtles / wher he ſheweth that aſſone as the murther whych Theodoſius had cauſed to be done at the citye of Theſſalonica was Epiſt. 38.heard / by and by the byſhops of Fraunce came and there was holden a Synode: where alſo Ambroſe ſayeth / that hys communicating wyth Theodoſius / coulde Ambroſ. lib. de obitu Theodoſ.not abſolue hym (for that as it myght appeare) the byſhops in that ſynode had in excommunicating hym / ordained that he ſhould not be abſolued vntill ſuche tyme as he had done repentance / whych he did afterward with confeſſyon of his faulte before the congregation / and aſking forgeuenes of it. So it appeareth that that whych he did / he did it by the ſentence of the ſynode / and not of hys owne authority alone. In the. 220. & 221. pages / he ſpeaketh of thys thing a freſh / but hath no newe matter / but maketh a bare reherſall of the places of the admonition / aſking after hys accuſtomed manner of confuting / what maketh thys or what proueth that? only wheras he ſayd before / and proued (as he thought) that the miniſter had only to do wyth excommunication / being preſſed there / by the admonition either to defend or renounce hys Chauncellors. &c. he had rather deny bothe the truth and himſelfe / then he wold hauehave any of that horrible confuſion and prophanation of the holy diſcipline of God (brought in by popery threatnyng the ouerthrow of the whole church / & ſeruing for nothing but for the nouriſhing of the ambition and idlenes of a fewe) driuen out of the church. Of the whych I will vponupon occaſion ſpeake a word / if firſt I ſhewe that the vſe of the auncyent church hath bene not to permit the excommunication to one / but that the ſentence therof ſhould come from the gouernors and elders of the church / vntounto whome that dyd eſpecially appertaine. Although I can not paſſe by that which M. doctor ſayth / that for ſo much as the authors of the Admonition had alledged the words (tell the church) to proue the intereſt of the church in excommunication / that therefore they could not vſe the ſame to proue the intereſt of the paſtor / as who ſhould ſaye that the paſtor is not one of the church. But of the abſurdity of this / I hauehave ſpoken ſufficiently before / and how all men do ſee the vanity of thys reaſon / that becauſe yt people hauehave an intereſt by thys place / therfore the paſtor hath none. But I come to ſhew the vſe of the primitiue church in thys matter / wherof we hauehave a manifeſt teſtimony in Tertullian. If (ſayth he) there be any whych hath committed Tertull. in Apolog. 39. ….ſuche a faulte that he is to be put away from the partakyng of the prayer of the church / and from all holy matters or affaires: there do beare rule or be preſidents certaine of the moſt approued auncients or elders / whych hauehave obtayned thys honor / not by mony / but by good report. And that the auncients had the ordering of theſe things / and the peoples conſent was required / and that if the caſe were a very difficult caſe / it was referred vntounto the ſynodes or councels / and that the miniſters dyd not take vponupon them of their owne authority to excommunicate / and that thoſe whych dyd receiue the excommunicate wythout the knowledge & conſent of the churche were reprehended / it may appeare almoſt in eueryevery page of Eib. 3. ep. 8. 10. 14. 19. 1. Lib. 3. epi. 3. lib. contra. ep. Parmen.Cyprians Epiſtles / and namely in theſe whych I hauehave noted in the margent.

In Auguſtines tyme it appeareth alſo / that the conſent of the church was required / for in the third boke agaynſt the epiſtle of Parmenian / he ſheweth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for which one is to be excommunicated / that then it helpeth much to make the party both afrayde and aſhamed / that he be excommunicated or anathematiſed (as he calleth it) by all the churche / and in hys bookes de Baptiſ. contra Donatiſtas, in diuers places / he is ſo far from permitting the excommunication to one man / yt he ſemeth to fal into the other extremity / whych is to make the eſtate of the church to populare / and the people to hauehave too great a ſway. For there he ſheweth / that if the moſt of the people be infected wyth the fault whych is to be punyſhed by excommunication / that then no excommunication ought to be attempted / for becauſe a ſufficient numbre of voyces will not be obtained for the excommunication. By whych teſtimonies / beſydes the inſtitution of God / & the practiſe of the churches in the apoſtles times / appeareth manifeſtly what hath ben the vſe of the churches touchyng excommunication / as long as there was any purity in the church. And it is to be obſerued heere / that bothe in thys parte of the diſcipline / and alſo in all other partes of it (as I hauehave ſhewed) as in harder and difficulter cauſes / thyngs were referred vntounto the Synodes prouincial / nationall / or generall / as the caſe required: ſo if the elders of any church ſhall determine any thing contrary to the worde of God / or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination / the partyes whych are greeued / may hauehave recourſe for remedy / vntounto the elders and paſtoures of dyuers churches / that is to ſay vntounto Synodes of ſhires / or dioceſes / or prouinces / or nations of as great or of as ſmall compaſſe as ſhall be thought conuenient by the church / according to the difficulty or waight of the matters / whych are in controuerſy. Whych meetings ought to be as often as can be conueniently / not only for the deciſion of ſuche difficultyes whych the ſeuerall preſbyteries can not ſo well iudge of / but alſo to the ende that common counſell myght be taken for the beſt remeady of the vices or incommodities whych eyther the churches be in / or in daunger to be in. And as thoſe thyngs whych can not be decided by the Elderſhyp of the churches are to be reſerued vntounto the knowledge of ſome Synode of a ſhire or dioceſe: ſo thoſe whych for their hardneſſe can not be there decided / muſt be brought into the Synodes of larger compaſſe as I hauehave ſhewed to hauehave bene done in the apoſtles times / and in the churches whych followed them long after.

Theſe thyngs ſtanding in thys ſorte / all thoſe Courtes of byſhoppes and archbyſhoppes muſt needes fall / whych were by Antichriſt erected againſt thys lawfull iuriſdiction of Elderſhip / as the courte of faculties / and thoſe whych are holden by chauncellors / commiſſaries / officials / and ſuche lyke / the deſcribyng of the corruptions wherof / would require a whole boke / of whych I will note the principall heads and ſummes.

Firſt / for ye they enter into an offyce whych pertaineth not vntounto them / but to eueryevery particulare church / and eſpecially to the elderſhyp or gouernoures of the church / and therfore although they ſhould do nothing but that whych were good / lawfull / and godly / yet can they not approue their labors vntounto men / much les to God / puttyng their ſickle in an other mannes harneſt. For neyther by the truthe of the worde of God dothe that appertayne vntounto them / neyther by M. Doctors owne iudgement (if hys yea were yea / and hys nay nay) conſydering that he ſayd before / that thys iuriſdiction belongeth to the miniſters. And although it ſhould pertaine vntounto the Byſhop / (as he is called) to whom notwythſtanding it dothe not appertaine) yet were it not lawfull for hym to tranſlate thys office vntounto an other / and to appoynt one to doe it when he lyſteth / no more then he can appoynt them to doe hys other offyces of miniſtring / as preaching the worde / and miniſtring the ſacraments.

An other thyng is / that in theſe courts (whych they cal ſpiritual) they take the knowledge of matters / which are meere ciuil / therby not only peruerting the order whych God hath appoynted / in ſeuering the ciuill cauſes from the eccleſiaſticall / but iuſtling alſo wyth the ciuill magiſtrate / and thruſting hym from the iuriſdiction / whych appertaineth vntounto hym / as the cauſes of the contracts of mariage / of diuorces / of willes & teſtaments / wt diuers ſuche other like things. For although it appertaine to the church and the gouernors therof / to ſhew out of the word of God whych is a lawfull contract or iuſt cauſe of diuorce / and ſo forthe / yet the iudiciall determination / and definitiue ſentences of all theſe / do appertaine vntounto the ciuill magiſtrate. Heerevnto may be added / that all their puniſhments almoſt are penalties of mony / whych can by no meanes appertaine to the church / but is a thyng meerely ciuill.

Thirdly / as they handle matters whych do not appertain vntounto the Eccleſiaſticall iuriſdiction / ſo thoſe whych do appertaine vntounto the church / they do turne from their lawfull inſtitution / vntounto other ends not ſufferable / whych M. doctor hym ſelfe doth confeſſe in excommunicating for money. &c.

Laſt of all they take vponupon them thoſe thyngs / whych are neyther lawful for ciuill nor eccleſiaſticall iuriſdiction / nor ſimply for any man to doe / of whych ſorte diuers are reckened vp by the admonition / and ſame confeſſed by M. Doctor. I will not heere ſpeake of the vnfitnes of thoſe whych are chefe offycers in theſe courts / that the moſt of them are eyther papiſts / or bribers / or drunkardes / (I know what I wryte) or epicures and ſuch as liue of benefices and prebends in England or in Ireland / doing nothing of thoſe things whych appertaine vntounto them / and of other ſuche naughty perſons whych are not only not meete to be gouernors in the church / but whych in any reformed church / ſhoulde not be ſo much as of the church. I ſpeake not of all / I doubt not but there be ſome do ye whych they do of conſcience / and with minde to healpe forwarde the Churche / whych I truſt will (when the Lorde ſhall giuegive them more knowledge) keepe them ſelues in their vocations / and being men for their giftes apte and able either to ſerue the Church or the common wealth in ſome other calling / will rather occupye theyr gifts there / then where they hauehave no grounde to aſſure them ſelues / that they doe pleaſe God. Now I will take a ſhort ſuruey of that whych M. doctor alleageth to proue his offices of maſter of faculties / chancellors. &c. Firſt he ſayth in ye. 117 page out of the Ancyran councel / yt there were vicars of biſhops / wher although y• name be not foūd of chācclors. &c. yet there is (ſayth he) the office. What vicar ſ. Paules B. may hauehave / and in what caſe / I hauehave ſhewed before / where I hauehave proued the neceſſary reſidence of eueryevery paſtor in his flock. But I will note heere how M. Doctor both goe about to abuſe hys reader in theſe vicares. And firſt where there were three editions / of which one only maketh mention of theſe vicares he tooke that & left the other / which is to be obſerued / for that thys varietie of editions roſe of the diuers vnderſtanding of the greke word (chorepiſcopos,) which may be taken eyther for hym that is byſhop for an other / and in hys place / or for hym that is byſhop in the country / that is in ſome towne which is no citie / ſo that chorepiſcopus, was oppoſed vntounto the byſhop which was of ſome citie. And if it be ſo taken / then here is no proofe for the vicarſe of byſhoppes. But howſoeuer it be / it ſhall appeare that the names of chauncelors and / chorepiſcopos, doe not ſo much differ / as the offices and functions of them. For it appeareth in the ſame Councell and Canon / that they were like the. 70. diſciples / that they had alſo ſome care to prouide for the poore / and that they were ſuch as dyd myniſter the ſacramentes. And in an other Councell / they hauehave authoritie geuen them to Antiochen. cap. 10.make ſubdeacons / exorciſts / and readers. I know thys was a corruption of the myniſtery / but yet all men ſee / how Maiſter Doctor looketh as it were a farre of vponupon things / and therefore taketh a man for a molehill / when he would make vsus beleeue that theſe were chauncelors. &c.

In the. 125. page to the admonition deſyring that theſe may be remoued and the elderſhyp eſtablyſhed according to Gods order / M. Doctor aunſwereth / that that were to place in ſtede of wiſe and diſcrete men / vnlearned / ignorant and vnapt to rule. Let Maiſter Doctor take heede / leaſt in alowing ſo well of the popiſhe ceremonies / not only as tollerable / but as fitte / and then acquainting hym ſelfe with the papiſtes maner of ſpeaking / in ſaying that the people be ignoraunt and vnlearned / he fal or ouer he be aware into ſome worſe thing. Moſes in Deuteronomie / Deut. 4. 6. Prou. 1. …. Pſa. 25. 12. 14▪and Salomon in hys prouerbes / place the principall wiſedome in keeking Gods commaundementes and in fearing God. And Dauid ſayeth / that the ſecretes and the priuy councell of the Lord / is knowen to thoſe which feare hym / and I hauehave ſhewed out of S. Paule / that he geueth to the ſpirituall man great 1. Cor. 2. 15.diſcretion and iudgement of things. If therefore there be in eueryevery church which feare God and keepe hys commaundementes / there are both wiſe and learned & diſcrete men / and therefore not to be ſpoken of ſo contemptuouſly as M. Doctor ſpeaketh. And God be prayſed there are numbers in the church / that are hable to be teachers vntounto moſt of the chauncelors / in any matter perteyning to the church / and are hable to geue a ryper iudgement in any eccleſiaſtical matter / then the moſt part of them can.

And beſides that the choyſeſt are to be taken to thys office / thys ought not to be forgotten / that ſeeing good ſucceſſe of thinges depend vppon the bleſſing of God / and that bleſſing followeth the church when the Lordes order is kept / ſimple men which carry no great countenaunce or ſhew / will vndoubtedly doe more good vntounto the church / hauing a lawfull calling / then thoſe of great port whiche hauehave no ſuch calling.

In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbyſhoppes Courte neceſſary / but bringeth no reaſon / and further confeſſeth hym ſelfe ignoraunt of the eſtate of it / and therefore I know not from whence that good opynion of hys ſhoulde come / onleſſe it be from thence that he lyketh of all things be they neuer ſo euill whych the admonition miſſyketh. The reſt which M. D. hath of thys matter is nothing elſe but great and high wordes. And as for the Canon law / it is knowen what a ſtroke it beareth with vsus / and that a few caſes excepted it remayneth in her former effect.

To the ſections beginning in the. 118. page / and holding on vntill the. 123. page.

It was before ſhewed that of the gouernoures of the church / there were ſome whoſe charge pertayned vntounto the whole church / of the which we hauehave ſpoken: ſome other / whoſe charges extend but to a part of the church / that is vntounto the poore / and theſe are the deacons. And as in the former part I ſhewed there were two kindes / ſo in this latter part ye ſame is to be noted / that of thoſe whoſe charge was ouer the poore / ſome had charge ouer all the poore of the church (as thoſe which are called deacons) ſome had charge ouer the poore ſtraungers / and thoſe poore which were ſicke only / and thoſe S. Paule calleth in one place Dyaconiſſes / and in an other place widdowes. For the deacons dyd diſtribute vntounto the neceſſyties as well of the poore ſtraungers and the ſicke poore / as vntounto the other 16. Rom. 1. 1. Ti. 5. 10.poore of the church. And the widdowes did employ their laboures to the waſhing of the feete of the ſtraungers / and attending vppon the poore which were ſicke / and had no frendes to keepe them. Firſt I will ſpeake of the deacons / & whereas M. Doctor cryeth out of daiying with the ſcriptures / for alledging the. 8. verſe of the twelfth vntounto the Romaines / to proue deacons / affirming that there is no worde of them: Truely I can fynde no wordes to ſet forth thys ſo groſſe ignorance. And had it not bene enough for M. Doctor to hauehave vttered thys ignorance / but he muſt alſo with an outery proclayme it / and as it were ſpred the banner of it? What doe theſe wordes note (he that diſtributeth in ſimplicitie) but the office of the deaconſhyp. For in that place S. Paule reckeneth vp all the ordinary and perpetuall offices of the church / as the office of the doctor / of the paſtor / of the deacon / of the elder / and leaueth not out ſo muche as the widdow / which he comprehendeth in theſe wordes (ſhewing mercy). If the authors of the Admonition doe daily with the ſcriptures in thys place / ſurely Maiſter Caluin / M / Beza / M. Bucer / Peter Martyr. &c. doe dally with them. And ſhall all theſe be eſteemed to play with the ſcriptures / and M. Doctor only to handle them ſeriouſly? And as M. Doctors ignorance appeareth in thys place / ſo hys mynde not deſirous of the truth / but ſecking to cauill / doth as manifeſtly ſhew it ſelfe. For all men ſee / that the admonition alledgeth not the place to the Teſſalonians to proue the office of deacons / but to ſhew that idle vagavondes might not hauehave any of that reliefe / which belongeth vntounto thoſe which bee poore in deede / which thing appeareth both by the placing of the quotation ouer agaynſt that allegation / & by the letter which directeth therunto. And whereas M. Doctor ſayth / that the office of the deacons is not only to prouide for the poore / but alſo to preach and myniſter the ſacramentes / I hauehave ſhewed before / that it doth not appertayne vntounto them / to doe eyther the one or the other. For the proofe whereof / thys place of the Romaines quoted by the admonition / is very fit & moſt proper. For S. Paule ſpeaketh there agaynſt thoſe which not contenting themſelues with their owne vocatiōs / dyd breake into that which appertayned vntounto others / as if the hand ſhould take vponupon it the office of the eye / or of ſome other member of the body / & therfore S. Paule doth (as it were) bound & point the limites of eueryevery office in ye church / & ſo placeth the deacons office only in the preuyſion for the poore. Thys one thing I will adde to that matter / that if the apoſtles whiche hadde ſuche excellent and paſſing gyftes / dyd fynde them ſelues (preaching of the woorde / and attending to prayer) not able to prouyde for the poore / but thought it neceſſarye to dyſcharge them ſelues of that offyce / to the ende they myght doe the other effectually and fruitefully / hee that ſhall doe both now / muſt eyther doe none well and profitably / or elſe hee muſt hauehave greater giftes then the Apoſtles had.

The ſeconde poynt is touching that there were deacons in eueryevery churche / which is well proued of the admonition / both by the place of the Phillippyans / and of the Actes / for although it be not there ſayd / that the deacons were in eueryevery church / yet for ſo muche as the ſame vſe of them was in all churches which was in Ieruſalem & at Philippos / and for that the Apoſtles (as hath bene before touched) laboring after the vniformitie of the church / ordeyned the ſame officers in all churches / the proofe of one is the proofe of all / and the ſhewing that there were deacōs in one church / is ye ſhewing in all. The place which they alledge out of the firſt to Timothe / is of all other moſt proper: for S. Paule there deſcribing not how the church of Epheſus / but ſimply and generally how the church muſt be gouerned / reckneth there the order of deacons. Whereunto may be added the contynuall practiſe of the church long after the Apoſtles times / which appeareth by the often ſuperſcriptions and ſubſcriptions in theſe words (the byſhop / elders / and deacons of ſuch a church / and vntounto the byſhop / elders / and deacons of ſuch a church). And by that it is ſo often times ſayd in the councelles where the churches aſſembled / y• there were ſo many byſhops / ſo many elders / ſo many deacons.

The thirde poynt in thys deaconſhip is / whether it be a neceſſary office in the church / or for a tyme only / which controuerſy ſhoulde not hauehave bene / if M. Doctors engliſh tong had bene agreable with hys latin. For in a certayne latin pamphlet of hys / whereof I ſpake before / he maketh the deaconſhip a neceſſary office / and ſuch as ought not to be taken out of the church: here he ſingeth a nother ſong. There / becauſe he thought the neceſſitie of the deacon made for hym / he wold nedes hauehave deacons: here becauſe it maketh agaynſt hym he ſayth there is no neede of them / wherby appeareth how ſmall cauſe there is / that M. Doctor ſhould vpbrayde the authors of the admonition with mutability and diſcord with them ſelues. But that thys office is durable and perpetuall / it may appeare by that which I hauehave alledged before out of the ſixt of Timothe / for the neceſſitie of elders: for the argumentes ſerue to proue the neceſſitie of thoſe orders which are there ſet forth / whereof the deacon is one. And where as M. Doctor ſayth that eueryevery church is not hable to fynde a curate (as he termeth hym) and a deacon / I hauehave before ſhewed / intreating of the ſenyors / that the churches in the Apoſtles tymes / might beſt hauehave ſayd thys / being poore and perſecuted / althoughe I ſee not why the church may not hauehave a deacon or deacons (if moe be needefull) with as ſmall charges as they may hauehave a collector or collectors.

There remayneth to ſpeake of the widdowes / which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of. 60. yeares / for the auoyding of all ſuſpition 1. Timo. 5. 9.of euill which might riſe by ſlaunderous tonges / if they had bene yonger. Theſe as they were noriſhed at the charges of the church being poore / ſo dyd they ſerue the church in attending vponupon poore ſtrangers and the poore which were ſicke in the church / whereof they were widdowes. Now although there is not ſo great vſe of theſe widdowes with vsus / as there was in thoſe places where the churches were firſt founded / and in that tyme wherein thys order of widdowes was inſtituted / part of the which neceſſity grew both by the multitude of ſtraungers through the perſecution / & by the great heate of thoſe eaſt countries / whereupon the waſhing & ſupplyng of their feete was required: yet for ſo much as there are poore which are ſicke in eueryevery church / I doe not ſee how a better and more conuenient order can be deuiſed / for the attendance of them in their ſicknes & other infirmities / then thys which S. Paule appoynteth / that there ſhuld be (if there can be any gotten) godly poore widdowes of the age which S. Paule appoynteth / which ſhould attend vponupon ſuch. For if there be any ſuch poore widdowes of that age deſtitute of all friendes / it is manifeſt that they muſt needes liue of the charge of the church / & ſeing they muſt nedes do ſo / it is better they ſhuld do ſome duety for it vntounto ye church agayne / thē the church ſhould be at a new charge to finde others to attend vponupon thoſe which are ſicke & deſtitute of keepers / ſeing that there can be none ſo fit for that purpoſe as thoſe women / which S. Paule doth there deſcribe: ſo that I conclude that (if ſuch may be gotten) we ought alſo to kepe that order of widowes in the church ſtill. I know y• there be lerned men which thinke otherwiſe / but I ſtand vponupon the authoritie of Gods worde / and not vppon the opynions of men be they neuer ſo well learned. And if the matter alſo ſhoulde be tryed by the iudgement of men I am able to ſhew the iudgement of as learned as thys age hath brought forth / which thinketh that the inſtitution of widdowes is perpetuall / and ought to be where it may be had / and where ſuch widdowes are founde. In deede they are more rare now then in the Apoſtles tymes: For then by reaſon of the perſecution / thoſe which had the gift of continency / dyd abſtayne from mariage after the death of their huſbandes / for that the ſole lyfe was an eaſyer eſtate and leſſe daungerous and chargeable when they were driuen to flye / then the eſtate of thoſe which were maryed. VntoUnto all the reſt vntill the ende of the firſt part of the admonition I hauehave anſwered alredy. Yet there is a poynt or two / which I muſt touch wherof the firſt is in the. 126. page / where he would beare men in hand / that the authors of the admonition and ſome other of theyr mynde / would ſhut out the cyuill magiſtrate and the Prince / from all authoritie in Eccleſiaſtical matters / which ſurmiſe although I ſee it is not ſo much becauſe eyther he knoweth or ſuſpecteth any ſuch thing / as becauſe he meaneth heereby to lay a bayte to entrappe with all / thinking that where he maketh no conſcience to geue he careth not what authority to Princes / we will be loth to geue more then the word of God will permit / wherby he hopeth to draw vsus into diſpleaſure with the Prince: yet for becauſe he ſhall vnderſtande / we noriſh no opynions ſecretly which we are aſhamed to declare openly / and for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in thys part / which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greateſt in the earth yet it is not infinite / but is lymitted by the word of God / and of whome we are perſwaded that as her maieſty knoweth / ſo ſhee will not vnwillingly heare the truth in thys behalfe / theſe things I ſay being conſidered / I anſwere in the name of the authors of the admonition / and thoſe ſome other which you ſpeake of / that the Prince and cyuill magiſtrate hath to ſee / that the lawes of God touching hys worſhippe / and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed & dewly obſerued / & to ſe that eueryevery Eccleſiaſticall perſon do that office whereunto he is appoynted / and to puniſh thoſe which fayle in their office accordingly. As for the making of the orders & cerimonyes of the church / they doe (where there is a conſtituted and ordered church) pertayne vntounto the myniſters of the church and to the eccleſiaſtycall gouernoures / and that as they meddle not with the making of cyuill lawes and lawes for the common wealth: ſo the cyuill magiſtrate hath not to ordayne cerimonies pertayning to the churche. But if thoſe to whome that doth appertayne / make any orders not meete / the magiſtrate may and ought to hynder them / and dryue them to better / for ſo much as the ciuill magiſtrate hath thys charge to ſee that nothing be done agaynſt the glory of God in hys domynion.

Thys diſtinction if M. Doctor knoweth not / nor hath not heard of / let him looke in the. 2. booke of the Chronicles / he ſhall ſee / that there were a number appoynted 1. Cro. 19. 8. 11.for the matters of the Lord / which were prieſtes and leuites / and there were other alſo appoynted for the Kinges affaires and for matters of the common wealth / amongſt which were the Leuites / which being more in number then coulde be applyed to the vſe of the churche / were ſet ouer cyuill cauſes / being therefore moſt fit / for that they were beſt learned in the lawes of God / which were the politicke lawes of that countrey. There he may learne if it pleaſe hym / that the making of orders and geuing of iudgementes in cyuill and Eccleſiaſticall / in common wealth and church matters / pertayned vntounto dyuers perſons / which diſtinction the wryter to the Hebrewes doth note / when he ſayeth that the Heb. 5. 1.Prieſt was ordayned in things pertayning to God.

Thys might Maiſter Doctor hauehave learned by that whiche the noble emperor Euſeb. li. 2. de vita Conſtant. ep. ad Euſeb.* Conſtantine attributeth to the fathers of the Nicene councell and to the Eccleſiaſticall perſons there gathered: which he doth alſo permit the Byſhops / Elders / and Deacans of churches to doe / eyther by correcting or adding / or making new if neede be. And by the contynuall practiſe of the church in the tyme of chriſtian Emperors / which alwayes permitted vntounto the myniſters aſſembled in Sozom. li. 1 cap. 17.councelles / as well the determynation of controuerſies which roſe / as the making or the abolyſhing of needefull or hurtfull cerimonies / as the caſe required. Alſo by the Emperoures epiſtle in the firſt action of the councell of Conſtantinople where by the epiſtle of the Emperor it appeareth / that it was the manner of 2. Tom. con. 5. lib. ep. 32.the Emperoures to confirme the ordinaunces which were made by the myniſters / and to ſee them kept. The practiſe of thys he myght hauehave alſo moſt playnly ſeene in Ambroſe / who wold by no meanes ſuffer that the cauſes of the churches ſhould be debated in the Princes conſiſtory or court / but would hauehave them handled in the church / by thoſe that had the gouernment of the church: and therefore excuſeth hym ſelfe to the emperour Valentinian / for that (being conuented to anſwere of the church matters / vntounto the ciuill court) he came not. And by whome can the matters and orders of the church bee better ordayned / then by the myniſters of the church? And if that be a good reaſon of Maiſter Doctor in the fortie and ſeuenth page / that the Byſhoppes ought therefore to ordayne myniſters / becauſe they are beſt hable to iudge of the learning and habylitie / of thoſe which are the fytteſt / it is alſo as good reaſon / that therefore the myniſters and gouernours of the church ſhould appoynt and decree of ſuch ceremonyes and orders as pertayne to the church / for becauſe it is to be ſuppoſed that they can beſt iudge of thoſe matters / beſtowing theyr ſtudyes that wayes / and further beſt vnderſtanding the eſtate of the church about the which they are wholy occupyed. And this is not (Maiſter Doctor) to ſhake handes with the papiſtes. For the papiſtes would exempt their prieſtes from the ſubiection / and from the punyſhment of the cyuill magiſtrate / which we doe not. And the papiſtes would that whatſoeuer the cleargy doth determyne / that that forthwith ſhould be holden for good / and the Prince ſhould be forthwith compelled to mayntayne and ſet forth that / bee it good or euill / without further inquiry: but wee ſay that if there bee no lawfull myniſtery to ſet good orders (as in rumous decayes and ouerthrowes of relygion) that then the Prince ought to doe it: and if (when there is a lawfull myniſtery) it ſhall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order / that the Prince ought to ſtay that order / and not to ſuffer it / but to driue them to that which is lawfull and meete. And if thys be to ſhake handes with the papiſtes / then Maiſter Doctor is to blame / which hath taught vsus once or twiſe before / that the appoynting of ceremonies of the church / belongeth vntounto the church. And yet I know that there is one or two of the later wryters / that thinke otherwiſe / but as I take no aduauntage of their authoritie which thinke as I doe / ſo I ought not to be preiudiced by thoſe / that thinke otherwiſe. But for ſo much as we hauehave M. Doctor yet of thys iudgement / that the church ceremonies ſhoulde bee ordayned by the church / I will trauaile no further in thys matter / conſydering that the practiſe of thys church commonly is to referre theſe matters vntounto the eccleſiaſticall perſons: only thys is the difference / that where it is done now of one or a few / wee deſire that it may be done by others alſo / who hauehave intereſt in that behalfe.

The other poynt is in the hundreth thirty and eyght page / where hee moſt vntruely and ſlaunderouſly chargeth the authors of the Admonition / and maketh wonderfull outcryes of them / as though they ſhould deny that there hadde beene any reformation at all / ſythens the tyme that the Queenes maieſtye began to raigne / manyfeſtly contrary / not onelyonly to theyr meaning / but alſo to theyr very words / which appeareth in that they moue to a thorough reformation / & to contende / or to labour to perfection / denying only that the reformation which hath bene made in her maieſties dayes / is thorough and perfect. We confeſſe willingly / that next vntounto the Lorde God / eueryevery one of vsus is moſt deepely bounde vntounto her maieſty / whome he hath vſed as an excellent inſtrument to delyuer his church heere / out of the ſpirituall Egipt of popery / and the common wealth alſo / and the whole lande out of the ſlauery and ſubiection of ſtraungers / whereunto it was ſo neare: Thys I ſay we willingly confeſſe before men / and do in our prayers dayly geue moſt humble thankes to God therefore.

And by thys humble ſute and earneſt deſire whiche wee hauehave for further reformation / we are ſo far from vnthankfulnes vntounto her maieſty / that we thereby deſire the heape of her felicitie / & the eſtabliſhment of her royal throne amongſt vsus / which then ſhall be moſt ſure and vnremoued / when our ſauiour Chriſt ſytteth wholy and fully / not only in hys chayre to teach / but alſo in hys throne to rule / not alone in the heartes of eueryevery one by hys ſpirite / but alſo generally / and in the viſible gouernment of hys church by thoſe lawes of diſcipline / whiche hee hath preſcribed.

And whereas M. Doctor woulde bring vsus into a fooliſh paradiſe of oure ſelues / as though we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce & Scotland / he ſhould hauehave vnderſtanded / that as we hauehave bene vntounto them in example / & hauehave prouoked them to follow vsus / ſo the Lord will hauehave vsus alſo profite / and be prouoked by their example / and ſo be mutuall helpes one to an other / and ſtirre vp our ſelues with the admonition that our ſauiour Chriſt ſtirred vp hys apoſtles / that oftentimes thoſe that are firſt / are not forwardeſt / but are ouerrun 20. Math. 16.of others that come after. And whereas he would priuely pinch at the reformation there / for ſo much as the Lord hath humbled the one / and exerciſeth the other by cyuill warres and troubles / he ſhould hauehave in ſteade of rocking vsus a ſleepe in our ſecuritie / put vsus in remembraunce of Gods ſcourges which hang ouer vsus / and of Gods great pacience that ſtill taryeth for our repentaunce / and that if hee hauehave punyſhed that people of hys which hauehave ſuffered ſo much for the profeſſion of the Goſpell / and which went with ſo ſtrayght a foote in it / with an vniuerſall hazarde of their goodes and lyues / that wee ſhall not eſcape vnleſſe wee repent ſpedely of our coldnes and halting in relygion / and vnwillingnes / I will not ſay to hazarde to put our lyues in daunger / but not to leeſe ſome of our wealth and honor / for the obtayning of a through reformation of the churche / and aduauncement of the glory of the Lord.

Finally / he would rather hauehave put vsus in remembrance of the ſermon which our ſauiour Chriſt maketh / where he ſheweth that thoſe cyties are not alwares Luk. 13. 2. &c.the greateſt ſinners / or thoſe whome God is moſt angry with / which hauehave the heauieſt iudgementes executed vponupon them / but that thereby the Lord calleth vsus to repentance / otherwyſe that we ſhall lykewiſe peariſh. Thys had bene more fit foroureſtate to hauehave bene ſayd / then to hauehave after a ſort inſulted vponupon the afflicted / & daubed vp our eyes that we ſhould not ſee our myſery and our nakednes. In all the reſt / M. Doctor hath nothing but wordes of reproch agaynſt the authors of the Admonition / and calling ſtill as hys manner is / for more puniſhment for them / which I will not beſtow the anſwere of.

The reply vntounto the ſection in the. 146. 147. 148. pages.

Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus eſse voluiſti, Deus bone, quam te illud non decet.

Heere M. Doctor was diſpoſed to make hym ſelfe and hys reader mery / but it is with the bagpipe or countrey mirth / not with the Harpe or Lute / which the learned were wont to handle. For he hath packed vp together the olde tale of the curſt wyfe / and of the theefe that toke away the prieſtes purſe / very familiar & homely geare: It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hop about the houſe / but the learned & the wyſe can not daunce by thys inſtrument. It pleaſeth M. Doctor to compare thoſe which be put out of their lyuings without iuſt cauſe / to heretickes / curſt wiues / and to theeues / but all men do vnderſtand how rightly. What hys troubles be within / and in hys conſcience / the Lord God and hee knoweth beſt / but as for the outwarde perſecution which he ſuffereth / it is not ſuch / as he neede thus to ſtoupe or to grone / and to blow vnderneath it / as though he had ſome great burthen vponupon hys ſhoulders. And if he complayne of the perſecution of the tong / to let paſſe hys immoderate heate of ſpeach / which he vſeth with thoſe that he hath to doe with all / the tong which is more intemperate then hys is in all hys booke / ſhall hardly be founde. And although it be vnreaſonable enough / that he ſhould not geue men leaue to complayne of their troubles / when he gloryeth in troubling them / yet that of all is moſt vntollerable / that beſides ye iniury which he doth thē / he is angry ye they wil not lay hands of thē ſelues by caſting thē ſelues out of their lyuings / or euer they bee caſt out by hym. Tullie maketh mētiō of one C. Funbria / which whē he had cauſed Q. Sceloua a ſingular in ā to be wounded / & ſaw that he dyed not of it / conuēted hym before the iudges / & being aſked what he had to accuſe hym of / anſweared / for that he dyd not ſuffer the whole weapon wherewith he was ſtricken / to enter into hys body: euen ſo M. Doctor contenteth not hym ſelfe only to doe iniuries vntounto men / but accuſeth them alſo / that they wil not do it vntounto thē ſelues / or that they would not willingly ſuffer hys weapons enter ſo farre as he would hauehave them. What conſcience is there that bindeth a man to depart from hys lyuing / in that place where he lyketh not of all the orders which are there vſed? is it not enough to abſtayne from thē / if there be any euill in them / or to declare the vnlawfulnes of them / if hys calling do ſuffer hym / when as the reformation is not in hys power. And if eyther of this abſtayning or declaration of thys vnlawfulnes of them / troubles be moued / there is no more cauſe why they ſhould geue place / then the other which lyke of thoſe diſorders / yea there is leſſe cauſe / for that they are not the cauſes of trouble / but the other / and for that by their departure out of theyr places / roume is made for thoſe whiche will lyke of thoſe diſorders which the other miſlyked / which is to the hurt of that company or congregation in ſuch places. And as for M. Doctors eaſynes to depart from hys lyuing / rather then he would cauſe any trouble / hee geueth men great cauſe to doubt of / which hauing dyuers great lyuinges / and amongſt them a benefice is very loth to goe from troubling of others / to doe hys duety at any of them. It is true / that the church of England may hauehave an order whereunto it may iuſtly require the ſubſcription of the myniſters in Englande: And ſo is it likewyſe vntrue / that we deſire that eueryevery one ſhould hauehave hys own fanſy / and lyue as hym liſteth / for we alſo deſire an vniforme order / but ſuch and in ſuch ſort / as we hauehave before declared. As for the olde accuſation of Anabaptiſme and confuſion / it is anſweared before: therefore according to my promiſe / I will leaue your wordes / and if you hauehave any matter / I will ſpeake to that.