A Trial of the Romish Clergys Title to the Church, Text and commentary · Quoted chapter 12

A Trial of the Romish Clergys Title to the Church · Text and commentary · Quoted chapter 12

p. 173A. D.

CHAP. XII. That this Church, which muſt be to vsus the rule of faith, as it muſt alwaies continue, ſo it muſt alſo alwaies be viſible.

A. W.

It is yet to prooue, and alwaies will be, that there is any ſuch Church, as muſt be to vsus the rule of faith: what ſhould we then ſtriue about the continuance and viſibilitie thereof? But you muſt needs be anſwered, according to the counſell of Salomon, Leſt you be wiſe in your owne conceit, to the hurt … Prou. 26. 5.Prov 26:5of other.

p. 174A. D. §. 1.

Now hauing prooued that the true Church of Chriſt muſt alwaies continue, without interruption, till the worlds end: it remaineth that I ſhew alſo in what manner it is to continue; to wit, whether it ſhall alwaies be viſible. That is to ſay, whether, in all ages, it was, and ſhall be a companie of men, who may be ſeene, and in ſome ſort, plainely knowen to be that companie, which men are to beleeue, by faith, to be the true Church of Chriſt: or that it ſhall be, ſometime at leaſt, inuiſible; that no man can ſee thoſe men, nor know them to be that companie, which we muſt beleeue, to be the true Church of Chriſt.

A. W.

That the Church of Chriſt muſt alwaies continue, is a point that needeth no proofe: that it is to continue without interruption, if we did not beleeue alreadie, we ſhould neuer be driuen or perſwaded to it by your weake reaſons. But (as me thinks, I muſt be faine to tell you oftner) the continuance of the true Church without interruption makes nothing at all for that imaginarie Church of your deuiſing, of the viſibilitie whereof you intreat in this Chapter. Wherein, firſt you goe about to propound, and expound the queſtion; then you make a ſhew of proouing it, according to the conceit, you hauehave of it. In the propounding of the queſtion, for the readers better vnderſtanding, I muſt let him know, that howſoeuer your words, ſhall alwaies be viſible, ſeeme to tie the queſtion onelyonly to the time hereafter to come, yet your meaning is to enquire, whether the Church of Chriſt hauehave not alwaies, ſince his firſt comming, and ſhall not alwaies, till his ſecond comming, be apparent and viſible. This is manifeſt by your expoſition, In all ages it was, and ſhall be: and by your proofes, which at the leaſt in your opinion, concerne the whole Church of Chriſt, euer ſince his comming in the fleſh.

Your expoſition rather darkens, then cleares the State of the queſtion. For who would not thinke, by your words, that one part of the controuerſie betwixt you and vsus, is, whether the men, the companie of whom is the church, may at all times be ſeene or no; as if we were ſo voide of ſenſe as to imagine, that men could be at any time (except by miracle) inuiſible? Do not your words imply thus much? I pray you conſider them p. 175a little with me. The queſtion is (ſay you) whether the Church be alwaies a companie of men, that may be ſeene. If you anſwer, that I muſt adde that, which followeth, And in ſome ſort plainly knowen to be that companie: I replie, that your ſelfe afterward make thoſe two diſtinct parts of the queſtion, when you expound what is meant by Inuiſible, that no man (ſay you) can ſee thoſe men, nor know them to be that companie; wherein you may reaſonably be thought, firſt to ſpeake of thoſe mens being ſeene, and ſecondly of their being knowen to be ſuch a companie.

But to make ſhort, and to ſpeake plaine withall; the queſtion of the Churches inuiſibleneſſe is double. Firſt whether a man by his bodily ſight can diſcerne, who they are, that be members of Chriſts myſticall bodie or no? that is, who be elect, and who be not. This we ſay (& herein you agree with vsus) is vnpoſſible: becauſe God doth not reueale this point to men, neither are they able to iudge, who are truly iuſtified and ſanctified, and who are not. Secondly the queſtion is, whether the catholicke Church, ſpokē off in the Creed, can be diſcerned by the ſame bodily ſight, or no: we ſay it cannot, becauſe it containeth none but the elect; you ſay it can, uuBellar. de Eccleſ. milit. lib. 3. cap. 2. Turrian. de Eccleſ. & ordin. miniſtr.becauſe it conſiſteth of all them that make profeſſion of chriſtian Religion, vnderunder the abſolute gouernment of the Pope of Rome. The onelyonly true meanes to make a full end of this controuerſie, is to ſhew what the Church is, of which the Creed & the Scriptures ſpeak ſo many, and ſo glorious matters. This point you hauehave not once touched, but either ignorantly, or craftily concealed that difference betwixt vsus, and alledge that for the definition of the Church, which if it were true, as it is euidently falſe, yet is but one priuiledge of the Church, and expreſſeth not the nature of it. But let vsus leaue theſe matters, and conſider what it is, that according to your former diſcourſe, you are to prooue. Now, that is (ſay I), that there alwaies hath bene, ſince our Sauiours comming, is, and ſhall be, to the end of the world, a companie of men famous, and viſible in the world, ſo that all men, at all times, may diſcerne, that they are the true Church of Ieſus Christ. For (that I may, in part, vſe your owne words, as they follow in this p. 176chapter) if at any time it could not be knowen, then the men, that liued in that time, wanted neceſſarie meanes, whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith, and conſequently, whereby they might come to ſaluation. GiueGive me leaue to apply that to all men, which you ſpeake of all times. If there euer were, are, or ſhall be any men, to whoſe ſight the Church was not ſo viſible, that they might diſcerne and know it; then thoſe men wanted neceſſary means whereby they might attaine to ſaluation: which if it were ſo (ſay you) how is it vniuerſally true, which is vniuerſally ſaid in Scripture, God would hauehave all men to be ſaued, and to come to the knowledge of the truth? Do you not perceiue that your reaſon neceſſarily requireth to hauehave it prooued, that the Church is viſible, as at all times, ſo to all men? For if it faile in either of theſe reſpects, your conſequence will follow, that ſome men hauehave wanted neceſſarie meanes of ſaluation, and ſo God would not hauehave all men ſaued. Therefore you propound the queſtion verie inſufficiently, when you ſay, We inquire, whether the Church at any time be inuiſible, ſo that no man can ſee thoſe men &c. For though at all times ſome men may ſee and know it; yet vnleſſe all men, at all times may, you hauehave prooued nothing to purpoſe in this whole Treatiſe.

A. D. §. 2.

In which matter my Aſſertion is, that the Church of Chriſt (of which the places of Scripture afore cited do ſpeake) muſt alwaies be viſible.

This I prooue: firſt by that plaine Propheſie of Iſaias in the 61. Chapter. (Which Chapter to be vnderſtood of our Sauiour Iſa. cap. 61.Isa 61Chriſt and his Church, we may gather out of Saint Luke, where our Sauiour himſelfe citeth ſome words out of that Chapter, and Luc. 4.Luke 4expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himſelfe.) The words of the Propheſie are theſe. Foedus perpetuum feriam eis, & ſcietur in gentibus Iſa. 61.Isa 61ſemen eorum: Omnes qui viderint eos, cognoſcentillos, quoniam iſti ſunt ſemen cui benedixit Dominus. I will make a perpetuall couenant or league with them, and their ſeede ſhall be knowen among Nations: all that ſhall ſee them, ſhall know them, that they are the ſeede, which our Lord hath bleſſed. How could he more plainely hauehave foretolde the viſibleneſſe of the Church?

p. 177The places of Scripture afore cited ſpeake not all alike: ſome of them concerne the Apoſtles onelyonly, and that not onelyonly as they are a companie, but as they are ſeuerall teachers authoriſed by our Sauiour Chriſt, with ſo high and abſolute a commiſſion: ſome belong to all true chriſtians, as well ſeuerally conſidered one by one, as taken iointly all together. Some appertaine to all Miniſters, ſome reach to all profeſſors of the truth of the goſpell. How then can you truly ſay, that the true Church of Chriſt (of which the places of Scripture afore recited doe ſpeake) muſt alwaies be viſible? The Apoſtles hauehave not bene viſible theſe 1500 yeares. The elect, that is the Church, built vponupon a rocke, neuer was, nor euer ſhall be viſible in this world. All Miniſters were not, nor can be viſible to all men. All profeſſors neither are the true Church of Chriſt, nor can by any meanes poſſible be ſeene of all mē, as one church, but with the eies of the mind. Particulars are ſubiect to ſenſe, but vniuerſals are diſcerned onelyonly by vnderſtanding. Your aſſertion then is falſe: but we will take it, as it is ſet downe by you, ſuppoſing that thoſe places of Scripture ſpeake of the Church in generall. Yet we may not forget that the ſecond point muſt needs be added, concerning all men; and ſo your aſſertion muſt be this, The true Church of Chriſt must alwaies be viſible, to all men liuing.

To make way to your argument out of this propheſie, you go about to prooue that the xxIſai. 61. 8. 9.Isa 61:8Isa 61:9Chapter is to be vnderſtood of our Sauiour Chriſt & his Church: your proofe lieth thus.

Our Sauiour himſelfe citeth ſome words out of that Chapter, & expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himſelfe.

Therefore that Chapter is to be vnderſtood of our Sauiour Chriſt and his Church.

This conſequent doth not follow vponupon that Antecedent Firſt becauſe the whole chapter may be written of our Sauiour himſelfe, and yet not of his Church alſo. Secondly becauſe ſome part of it may be of our Sauiour, and yet not thoſe words you alledge. For who is he that knoweth not, that one and the ſame Chapter often times, conteineth diuers propheſies, belonging to diuers matters and parties? But though your proofe be naught, your opinion is true. For thoſe words & that p. 178whole chapter concerne our Sauiour, and his Church. Let vsus ſee how you reaſon.

If our Sauiour promiſe to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church, and that their ſeede ſhall be knowen among nations, and that all that ſhall ſee them, ſhall know them that they are the ſeed, which our Lord hath bleſſed, then the Church muſt alwaies be viſible to all men liuing.

But our Sauiour hath promiſed to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church, & that their ſeed ſhall be knowen among nations, and that all that ſhall ſee them, ſhall know them, that they are the ſeed which our Lord hath bleſſed.

Therefore the Church muſt alwaies be viſible to all men liuing.

I denie the conſequence of your Maior: Though our Sauiuiour To the propoſition.made ſuch a promiſe, and indeed hath, and doth daily performe it; yet it doth not follow thereupon, that the Church muſt alwaies be viſible to all men. Shall the promiſe of our Sauiour faile, if the Church at ſome time be not yyApoc. 12. 6.Rev 12:6apparent to all men? zz12. Art. part.Take heed we giuegive not the Atheiſts of the world occaſion to ſay, that his promiſe was neuer fulfilled, becauſe the 1. art. 1.Church was neuer knowen to all men liuing at any one time. The Lord by this prophecie foretelleth the enlarging of the Church amongſt the Gentiles, not the viſibleneſſe of it, at all times, to all men. But the couenant (^y you will ſay) is perpetuall. True: that is (ſaith aaGloſſ. ordin. ad Eſai. 61.Isa 61your gloſſe) not as the old Teſtament, to which the new hath ſucceeded; and therefore he expoundeth the perpetuall couenant, to be bbEuangelium aeternum.the eternall Goſpell, which ſhall neuer be aboliſhed for anie other, as the ceremoniall Law was, by the ſacrifice of our Sauiour Chriſt. ccGloſ. inter l. ibi.An other of your Gloſſes calleth it a perpetuall couenant, becauſe it ſhall be certainly performed, applying to that purpoſe, the place of Matthew. ddMat. 5. 18.Matt 5:18Heauen and Earth ſhall paſſe, but one iot or title of the Law ſhall not paſſe, till all things be fulfilled. The other clauſe is as little to your purpoſe. The Prophet ſaith not that all men, at all times ſhall, or may ſee the Church, but that all, which ſhall ſee it, ſhall know it. Neither is that ſight an outward beholding of thoſe men, that are members of the Church, but a diſcerning ſpirit giuen by p. 179God to them, whom he hath appointed to euerlaſting life, by faith in Chriſt. For if we ſtrictly preſſe the words, who ſeeth not, that this promiſe hath failed, ſince there hauehave bene many in all ages, yea in our Sauiours owne daies, who for all his powerfull miracles, diuine doctrine, and vnſpotted conuerſation, acknowledged neither his Church nor himſelfe? Say not, they might hauehave done. For that is not the queſtion. The Propher ſaith, All that ſee them, ſhall know them, not may know them. eeGloſſ. ordin.Your ordinarie gloſſe applieth this to ffApoſtolos & eorum imitatores.the Apoſtles, and their followers, or thoſe that imitate their workes. So doth ggVatablus, opera eorum.Vatablus expound them, their workes. And hhLyra, operibus miraculoſis, & virtuoſis.Lyra more particularly ſheweth what works are meant. They (ſaith Lyra) that ſhal ſee them diſtinguiſhed from other men, by their miraculous and powerfull works, wherein the Apoſtles, and other their ſucceſſors excelled the common people, and yet excell them in many things. Now the Apoſtles themſelues, for all their many, and ſtrange miracles, might hauehave bene, and had bene vnknowen, I will not ſay to many men, but to many nations, and the farre greateſt part of the world, if they had not, iiMath. 28. 19.Matt 28:19according to their commiſſion, trauelled from place to place, and ſo into diuers countries brought the firſt tidings of themſelues. How can it be then, that at all times ſince the death of the Apoſtles, the Church hath bene viſible to all men, ſeeing there hath bene neither charge, nor warrant, nor practiſe of any ſuch vniuerſall miniſterie? If any man had rather vnderſtand this Prophecie of the knowledge, that the vnbeleeuers hauehave of the Church, the meaning Oſ…rius in Eſa. lib. 5. ad ca. 61.is, that the Lord will beſtow ſuch graces of Sanctification vponupon his children, that euen their verie enemies, amongſt whom they liue, ſhall be driuen to acknowledge them for the people of God. But what is this to the viſibleneſſe of the Church, to all men at all times?

A. D. §. 3.

Secondly our Sauiour hath ordained this his Church to be the light of the world; according as he ſaith, Vos eſtis lux mundi, Matth. 5.Matt 5you are the light of the world: and to be a rule or meanes, by which all men, at all times, may come to the knowledge of that One, infallible, entire faith, which is neceſſarie to ſaluation, as hath bene prooued. But how can it be the light of the world, if it ſelfe p. 180be inuiſible? (Nemo accendit lucernam, & ponit eam ſub modio. No man lighteth a candle, and when he hath done, ſetteth it vnderunder a buſhell, where it cannot be ſeene.) And how can it be a meanes, by which, at all times the infallible truth may be made knowen, to all ſorts of men; if it ſelfe at any time, could not be knowen of men? Or if you ſay, that ſometimes it could neither be knowen it ſelfe, nor be a meanes, by which the true faith might be made knowen; then, ſith that I prooued that it is a neceſſarie meanes, and ſo neceſſarie, that without it, according to the ordinarie courſe, there is not ſufficient meanes prouided by Almightie God to inſtruct all men infallibly in all points of faith: Then (I ſay) men, that liued at that time, wanted neceſſarie meanes, whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith, and conſequenly, whereby they might come to ſaluation. Which if it were ſo, how is it vniuerſally true, which is vniuerſally ſaid in Scripture? Deus vult omnes homines ſaluos fieri, & ad agnitionem veritatis venire. God would hauehave men to be ſaued, and to come to the knowledge of 1 Tim. 2.1 Tim 2the truth. For how can he be ſaid, to hauehave a true will to ſaue all men, If he hauehave not, at all times, prouided meanes ſufficient, wherby, all men may come to the knowledge of true faith, and thereby, by degrees, to ſaluation? Sith eſpecially, he hath power to prouide theſe meanes: and knoweth, that without theſe means prouided, it is vnpoſſible for men to attaine true faith, and eternall ſaluation. For knowing it vnpoſſible, he cannot be ſaid to will it; ſith no wiſe man willeth that, which he knoweth perfectly to be altogether vnpoſſible; and much leſſe may Almightie God be ſaid, to will any thing, which is abſolutely vnpoſſible, conſidering that his wiſedome is infinite, and that his will is alwaies ioyned with ſome worke or effect, by which worke or effect, that which he willeth, at leaſt, is made poſſible to be done. VVherefore to verifie that Almightie God would hauehave all men ſaued, we muſt needs ſay, that he hath prouided, for all men, theſe meanes, which be neceſſarie, and without which, it is vnpoſſible for them, to come to the knowledge of true faith, and thereby to ſaluation: One of which meanes, is a viſible Church, of which they muſt heare and learne the true faith; which is the firſt, and a neceſſarie ſtep to ſaluation. The Church therefore muſt needs be alwaies viſible.

p. 181This your ſecond reaſon is thus to be framed:

If the Church be not viſible to all men, at all times, then it is not ordained by our Sauiour to be the light of the world, and a rule or means by which all men at all times may come to faith and ſaluation.

But it is ordained by our Sauiour to be ſuch a light, and ſuch a rule or meanes.

Therefore it is viſible to all men at all times.

That I may be the more eaſily vnderſtood by the ordinarie Reader, I wil apply my anſwer to the courſe that you hauehave takē in ſetting downe your reaſon: where in the firſt place we hauehave your minor, and one proofe of it; another followeth after your propoſition, and there ſhall be examined.

Concerning your Aſſumption, I ſay it is falſe. The Church is To the Aſſumption.not ordained to be ſuch a light, rule and meanes: To kkMath. 5. 14.Matt 5:14your proofe touching the light, I anſwer, with diuers of the auncient, that our Sauior ſpeaketh to, and of the Apoſtles, not of the Church in ſucceſſion from time to time. All the Apoſtles (ſaith llChryſoſt. ad Pſal. 38.Ps 38Chryſoſtome) are the light, to whō he ſaid, Ye are the light of the world. Theſe were the light of the eyes of the two teſtaments, the Law and the Gospel. For they by the light of our Lord, mmIlluminant nobis.enlightened for vsus the old and new teſtaments. He that reproueth thoſe things that are done ſecretly, is the light (quoth nnTheophyl. ad Math. 5.Matt 5Theophylact.) For all that maketh any thing manifeſt, is light. But they (the Apoſtles) enlightned not one nation, but the world. So doth ooAug. in Ioan. tract. 23. & De Sanctis. ſer. 43.Auſtin ſomtimes expound it. So ppHieron. ad Math. 5.Matt 5Ierom, qqHilar. a pud Thom. in caten. ad Math 5.Matt 5Hilary, & Remigius. rrLuc. Brugen. ad Math. 5.Matt 5Lucas Brugenſis a learned Papiſt, not onelyonly applieth this text to the Apoſtles, but alſo affoords vsus a ſecond anſwer. You are, that is (ſaith he) you muſt be, or ought to be the light of the world, that you may carry the light of the Goſpel into the world, he ſet round about with darkneſſe. And thus in a manner do Auſtin and Hilary expound it.

But let vsus vnderſtand it of all teachers, that they are the light of the world, as indeed they are, in a certaine proportion. What then? Will it follow hereupon, that therefore the Church is at all times viſible to al men? The Apoſtles themſelues, whom this doth eſpecially concerne, were not ſo. For many thouſands in the world died, after ſſMark. 16. 15:Mark 16:15the generall commiſſion giuen to the p. 182Apoſtles, before it was any way poſſible for them to take any knowledge of ſuch Preachers, or of the Goſpell. Your great Cardinall ttBellar. de verb Dei ſcrip. lib. 3 cap. 2. ad arg 3.Bellarmine will needs hauehave the place expounded, not of the Apoſtles doctrine, but of their conuerſation: which is not ſo eaſie and readie to be knowne as their preaching was. Tertullian applieth it to the behauiour of all Chriſtians. Why hath our Lord (ſaith uuTert. de cultu foemina. cap. 13.he) compared vsus to a light, and a hill, if we ſhine not in the midſt of the darknes, if we hold not vp our heads in the middle of them that lie drowned? But out of queſtion, this holineſſe of true Chriſtians, is not alwayes viſible to all men, neither can it belong to your Church, the xxBellar. de Eccleſ. milit. lib. 3 cap. 2. §. Atque hoc.members whereof may be vtterly void of true faith and louelove, ſaue onelyonly in the outward profeſſion. Take it how you will, for doctrine or manners, or both, you are neuer a whit the nearer. If I would preſſe the words, I could ſay, that our Sauiour requires no more in this place of the light, but that it giuegive light yyMat. 5. 15.Matt 5:15to all them that are in the houſe: that is, to all in the Church, or at the moſt, to them that are neare neighbours thereunto. For what zzApoc. 1. 12. 20. & 2. 5.Rev 1:12Rev 1:20Rev 2:5candle is there ſo bright, that the light of it can be ſeene ouer all the world? What though our Sauiour call his Apoſtles the light of the world? doth he meaue, that they all ioyntly together conſidered, as a companie, are ſo; or that eueryevery one of them (ſeuerally) is the light of the world? If you will hauehave it ſpoken of them as the Church (and elſe it cannot ſerue your turne to proue the perpetuall viſibleneſſe of the Church) I doubt how you will be able to ſhew, that they were the light of the world. For they did not enlighten the world by any ioynt act of them all together, but by their ſeuerall preaching in ſeuerall places. Neither did they perſwade men to beleeue, becauſe they were ſuch, or ſuch a company; but eueryevery one of them taught the doctrine of the Goſpell, and was of himſelfe without relation to all, or any of the reſt, the light of the world in that part, where it pleaſed God to bleſſe his labours, to the begetting of faith. If you ſay, that eueryevery one of them was the light of the world (as doubtleſſe eueryevery one was) then will it not follow, that becauſe the Church is the light of the world, therefore it muſt be at all times viſible to all men. For neuer any one of the Apoſtles was ſo; no nor all of them, as I ſaid before, many p. 183thouſands being taken out of the world, after the Apoſtles began to preach, ere they could poſſibly hauehave any glimpſe of ſuch a light. To conclude, the Apoſtles were, and the Miniſters (in ſome ſort) now are the light of the world, becauſe by their preaching, it pleaſeth Almightie God to open the eyes of worldly men, that aaAct. 26. 18.Acts 26:18they may turne from darknes to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receiue forgiueneſſe of ſinnes, and inheritance among them which are ſanctified by faith in Chriſt: not as if any, or all theſe muſt at all times be viſible to all men; but that there may be meanes for the ſaluation of thoſe whom the Lord (of his infinite louelove) hath choſen out of the world, to be heires of his endleſſe glory.

By all men, we may vnderſtand either eueryevery particular man, or Of the propoſition.all ſorts of mē. If you wold proue that which you vndertake, you muſt meane eueryevery particular man, as I hauehave ſhewed in anſwering the fifth Chapter; and as it is apparent in this afterward, where you repeate that which before you had deliuered concerning Gods will to hauehave eueryevery man ſaued, one and other. But I know not how, in the proofe of your propoſition, you ſeeme to expound all men by all ſorts of men. How can it be a meanes (ſay you) by which at all times the infallible truth may be made knowne to all ſorts of men, if it ſelfe at any time could not be knowne of men? In this ſenſe, if I ſhould grant your whole fyllogiſme, yet would the point in queſtion remaine ſtill vnproued. For the Church may be ordained for the light of the world, and for a rule or means whereby all ſorts of men may come to faith and ſaluation: and yet at no time be viſible to eueryevery particular man. To ſpeake more plaine; your propoſition may be vnderſtood two ſeueral ways; firſt thus, that all men ſhall be taken in the one part of it, namely in the antecedent or former part, for eueryevery particular man; in the other for all ſorts of men. If it be thus vnderſtood, I ſay the conſequence is naught. Secondly, thoſe words All men, may hauehave the ſame ſignification in both parts of the propoſition, yet in two diuers ſenſes. For they may be taken either for Al ſorts of men, and then, as I hauehave ſhewed, the ſyllogiſme proueth not that which is in queſtion: or for eueryevery particular man, in which ſenſe onelyonly I allow of the propoſition, as true and to the purpoſe. p. 184It had bin better therefore that you had ſpared the proofe of it, eſpecially vnleſſe you could hauehave done it better. bbMath. 5. 15.Matt 5:15The light which is not put vnderunder a buſhel, is not the church, but the apoſtles. He teacheth them (ſaith ccTheophyl ibi.Theophylact) to endure the trial, and to hauehave great care of their conuerſation, as they ddAſpectabiles eritis.on whom al men gaze. Thinke not therefore (ſaith our Sauiour) that ye ſhal lie hid in a corner: Ye ſhal be the light of the world: and therefore ſee that you liue vnblameably, and become not an offence to other men. Who can gather from hence the conſequence of your propoſition; If the Church be not viſible to all men at all times, it is not ordained by our Sauiour to be the light of the world?

Your ſecond proofe, concerning the rule and meanes, is no leſſe inſufficient. If the Church at any time could not be knowne of men, (you muſt needs meane of eueryevery particular man, if you will ſpeake to the purpoſe) it cannot at all times be a meanes, by which the truth may be knowne to all ſorts of men. This is the conſequence I denied before, either brought by you for a new proofe, or repeated idly within 3. or 4. lines after it was firſt deliuered.

Here you returne to your minor, and to proue the latter part To the proof of the latter part of the aſſumption.of it, propound the ſecond time your maine reaſon, anſwered at large in the fifth Chapter. It would be tedious, and loſſe of time and labour, to repeate all that was then ſaid: I wil therfore content my ſelfe to draw it into forme, as it lieth, and to denie the falſe propoſitions, without any more adoe, vnleſſe I meete with ſomewhat by the way, which was not in your former diſcourſe. Thus you reaſon.

If the Church be not ordained by our Sauiour, to be a rule or meanes, by which all men, at all times, may attaine to faith and ſaluation; then ſome men, at ſome time, hauehave wanted one neceſſary meanes to that purpoſe.

But no man at any time hath wanted any neceſſary meanes to that purpoſe.

Therefore the Church is ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or means, by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and ſaluation.

I denie your Aſſumption; which you endeuour to proue p. 185in this ſort:

If any man at any time hath wanted any neceſſary meanes, then it is not vniuerſally true, that God hath a true will to hauehave all men ſaued, and come to the knowledge of his truth.

But it is vniuerſally true, that God hath a true will to hauehave all men ſaued, and come to the knowledge of his truth.

Therefore no man, at any time, hath wanted any neceſſarie meanes.

Againe I denie your minor, referring the Reader, for the true ſenſe of ee1. Tim. 2. 4.1 Tim 2:4that Scripture, to my anſwer in the fift Chapter. The proofe of your conſequence, about which you labor like a man that claps plaiſter vponupon plaiſter on a ſound place, is altogether needleſſe, and not worth the examining; ſaue onelyonly that in the laſt clauſe thereof, you confidently harp vponupon the former ſtring, which ſoundeth nothing but the neceſſitie of a viſible Church to ſaluation. But the Apoſtle, ffRom. 10. 14. 15.Rom 10:14Rom 10:15where he ſheweth what is of neceſſitie to faith, neither mentioneth, nor any way implieth a viſible Church, but only requireth a ſending of ſome to preach: and that may be from God immediatly, not by ſucceſſion, ggGal. 1. 1.Gal 1:1in and by men. Did not our Sauiour Chriſts preaching bring many to faith in him, and ſo to ſaluation? Did not Peter hhAct. 2. 41.Acts 2:41conuert 3000. at one Sermon? Did not the Apoſtle Paul plant many Churches? Was any of theſe a viſible Church? or did the people to whom they preached, either ſeeke to them, as to a viſible Church, or beleeue that they deliuered, becauſe they were ſent by a viſible Church? It is true, that no man (ordinarily) can beleeue, vnleſſe he heare; no man can heare, vnleſſe there be one to preach to him: no man can preach, vnleſſe he be ſent. But what is all this to the neceſſitie of a viſible Church? Looke through the whole hiſtory of the new Teſtament, and ſee how many examples you can finde of any, that were but ſo much as occaſioned to beleeue, by the meanes of a viſible Church. The ſame of our Sauiours miracles drew many to the hearing of him, not the knowledge of any viſible Church. iiAct. 10. 3. 5.Acts 10:3Acts 10:5Cornelius a deuout man, and one that feared God, liuing neare to the places where the Goſpell was preached, was not moued by the viſible Church, but by a viſion from heauen, to ſend for Peter, p. 186that he might heare and beleeue. I might ſhew the like in diuers other examples, that the Apoſtles were faine ſeuerally to go from place to place to preach the Goſpell, and not to ſtay, till the fame of them, or a viſible Church ſhould moue people to enquire after them. I denie not, that kk1. Cor. 14. 23 25.1 Cor 14:23occaſion may be giuen to men to hearken after the Goſpell, by reaſon of ſome viſible Church, whereof they may by diuers meanes hauehave vnderſtanding: but, that it is vnpoſſible for men to come to the knowledge of true faith, and hereby to ſaluation, without a viſible Church; or that a viſible Church is alwayes the firſt ſtep to ſaluation, though ſometimes it may be the firſt occaſion of hearing and beleeuing.

A. D. §. 4.

Thirdly, if the vniuerſall Church of Christ, ſhould for any ſpace of time be inuiſible: it ſhould for that ſpace ceaſe to profeſſe outwardly that faith, which in heart it did beleeue. For if it did outwardly profeſſe, how ſhould it not by this profeſſion be made viſible and knowne? But if the vniuerſall Church ſhould for ſuch a time faile to profeſſe the faith, hell gates (contrarie to Christs promiſe) did mightily preuaile against it. For, were it not a mightie preuailing, that the whole Church ſhould faile in a thing ſo neceſſarie to ſaluation, as we know, outward profeſſion of faith to be neceſſarie, both by that of our Sauiour: Qui negauerit me coram hominibus, Math. 10.Matt 10ego negabo illum coram Patre meo: He that ſhall denie me before men, I wil denie him before my Father? And, Qui Luk. 9.Luke 9me erubuerit & ſermones meos, hunc Filius hominis erubeſcet: He that ſhal be aſhamed of me and of my words, him the Sonne of man wil be aſhamed of. And by that of S. Paule: Corde creditur ad iuſtitiam, ore fit confeſſio ad ſalutem: With heart we beleeue Rom. 10.Rom 10to iuſtice, with mouth we confeſſe to ſaluation. Which place learned men interprete to ſignifie, that profeſſion of faith is ſometimes neceſſarie to ſaluation: and they ſay further, that this ſometimes is ſo oft, as either the glorie of God, or the profite of our neighbour, doth of neceſſitie require it: the which caſes of neceſſitie do happen verie often; and great maruell it were (or rather vnpoſſible) that they ſhould neuer hauehave happened, for ſo long a time as the Proteſtants would hauehave their Church to hauehave beene inuiſible.

A. W.

p. 187If the vniuerſall Church of Chriſt (ſay you) ſhould for any ſpace of time be inuiſible, it ſhould for that ſpace ceaſe to profeſſe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue.

But it may not for any ſpace ceaſe to profeſſe that faith.

Therefore it may not for any ſpace of time be inuiſible.

To omit that fancie, that there is one ſuch vniuerſall Church To the propoſition.of Chriſt vponupon earth (whereof hereafter, when I come to ſpeake of the Catholicke Church,) I denie the conſequence of your propoſition. For it is poſſible, that al the Churches in the world ſhould gloriouſly profeſſe the true faith, and yet many thouſands be vtterly ignorant, that there are any ſuch Churches. Was not your Church of Rome (which hath bene famous enough for outward ſtate) altogether vnknowne (at the leaſt a long time) in the Indies and America, till within theſe 100. yeares, or thereabouts? And yet do you aske, If it did outwardly profeſſe, how it ſhould not by this profeſſion be made viſible and knowne? Hath not the kingdome of China, if we beleeue the report of your Ieſuites and other Friers, bene a mightie and rich eſtate many hundred yeares; and yet not heard of till of late, in moſt parts of Chriſtendome? If you reply, that the Churches muſt needs be knowne to them, amongſt, or neare whom they are: I anſwer, that this proueth not their viſibilitie to all men at all times; no nor to them, in the midſt of whom they dwell, vnleſſe the Churches be ſetled in ſome outward peace, that the members thereof may freely ſhew themſelues.

Your minor is falſe: it may come to paſſe, that the Church To the Aſſumption.may ceaſe for a ſpace to make open profeſſion of that faith, which in hart it doth beleeue: elſe how could ll1. Reg. 19. 18.1 Kgs 19:18Eliah, liuing in the kingdom of Iſrael, hauehave bene ignorant, that there were 7000. true worſhippers of God in that countrey? Your proofe is inſufficient.

If it might come to paſſe (ſay you) that the Church ſhould ceaſe to profeſſe outwardly, then ſhould the gates of hell mightily preuaile againſt it, contrary to our Sauiours promiſe.

But the gates of hell ſhal not mightily preuaile againſt it, contrary to his promiſe.

Therefore it may not come to paſſe, that the Church ſhould ceaſe ſo to profeſſe.

p. 188The conſequence of your maior is too weake. Our Sauiours promiſe is neither to the whole Church, conſidered as a companie ioyntly together, but to eueryevery true beleeuer, as I ſhewed before; nor concerning outward profeſſion, againſt which Peter (the head of the Church, as you dreame) grieuouſly ſinned: but of continuing ioyned to Ieſus Chriſt, as the head, by a true iuſtifying faith, reſting on him for ſaluation. In which eſtate Peter alwayes was preſerued by our Sauiour, though mmMat. 26. 70 72. 74.Matt 26:70the diuel preuailed againſt him to the deniall of his Lord and Maſter, for feate of death. But let vsus ſee your proofe.

If outward profeſſion be a thing neceſſary to ſaluation, then if the church faile in that, the gates of hell mightily preuaile againſt it, contrary to our Sauiours promiſe.

But outward profeſſion is a thing neceſſary to ſaluation.

Therfore if the Church faile in outward profeſſion, the gates of hell mightily preuaile againſt it, contrarie to our Sauiours promiſe.

I denie your minor. Such outward profeſſion as you meane, is not To the Aſſumption.neceſſary to ſaluation.

For the better clearing whereof, we muſt a little examine what it is, for a thing to be neceſſary to ſaluation; then, what profeſſion may be counted neceſſary. For the former: that is neceſſary to the ſaluation of a man, without which he cannot poſſibly be ſaued. Now theſe things are either ſimply neceſſarie, ſo that the abſence of them ſhuts a man out of heauen; or neceſſarie onelyonly in ſome ſort. Simply neceſſarie, on mans part (for in that ſenſe we ſpeake now of things neceſſarie) are, acknowledgement of ſinne, faith in Ieſus Christ, and repentance: whereſoeuer any of theſe is wanting, there is no poſſibilitie of ſaluation, ſo long as they are wanting. Other things there are onelyonly ſo far neceſſarie, as that the contempt or neglect of them, ba…s a man of ſaluation. Such are the Sacraments and outward profeſſion: both in generall, by becoming a member of ſome true viſible Church, and in particular, by witneſſing the truth, as oft as the Lord ſhall miniſter iuſt occaſion. Concerning this latter kinde of things neceſſarie, we are to know that if we truly repent our contempt and neglect of theſe duties, p. 189and beleeue in Ieſus Chriſt, there is merciemercy for vsus with God, though for want of oportunitie we can neuer come to the performance of them.

Touching the latter point of outward profeſſion, it is (as I ſignified ere while) of two ſorts: either a ioyning of our ſelues to ſome Church profeſſing true Religion, or a bearing witneſſe of the truth of God, which we profeſſe. To this latter eſpecially belong the two former places of Scripture alledged by you. To the former, that text which you ſet in the laſt place, as it ſhal appeare by and by. You will aske me perchance, whether of theſe two, is the profeſſion you ſpeake of. Surely to ſpeake plainly and properly, neither of them. For it is a conceit of your owne deuiſing, without any authoritie or warrant of Scripture; and namely of thoſe places you bring for proofe of it: yet may it in ſome ſort be referred to the latter, as being a meanes whereby we may auouch the truth of God, whereof we are profeſſors. So then the anſwer is, firſt, that no kinde of outward profeſſion is ſimply neceſſary to ſaluation, as if the abſence of it, were in it ſelfe damnable, though the contempt or neglect of the dutie, not repented of, brings certaine damnation. Secondly, that it is not neceſſary to ſaluation, either ſimply, or in any ſort, that a whole Church ſhould at all times make open profeſſion to the world of that Religion which they hold, and ſecretly practiſe. This is that outward profeſſion, which is meant in your minor: by which conceit you ſhut out of heauen all Churches, that is, all aſſemblies of the faithfull, which at any time hauehave for borne to caſt themſelues wilfully into the mouthes of the bloud-thirſtie and rauening perſecutors, by proclaiming openly their faith in Chriſt. It is too true, that an ouer-great zeale of martyrdome caried nnIgnatius ad Rom. Cyprian. de Martyr. Ioan. 4. 1. 2, 3., & 8. 59. & 9. 39. Act 8. 1. & 9. 24. 25.John 4:1John 4:2John 4:3John 8:59John 9:39Acts 8:1Acts 9:24Acts 9:25ſome men, now and then, farther then they ſhould hauehave gone, to the endangering and loſing of their liues. But it is as true, that our Sauiour, his Apoſtles, and the Churches, from time to time, hauehave beene carefull to hide themſelues from the ſight of Tyrants, when the Goſpell was perſecuted, as farre as their callings, and other occaſions would giuegive them leaue. Indeede they p. 190they neuer would (neither is it lawfull) denie the truth of God, or themſelues to be profeſſors of it, if they were called in queſtion for it: yet did they conceale, as much as they could, from the perſecutors, their times and places of meeting, and alſo the ſeuerall members of their Churches. To denie Chriſt, or the truth of his religion is alwaies damnable, and without repentance, bringeth damnation vnauoideably; not to make publicke profeſſion of religion is not alwaies ſo; but then onelyonly, when the Lord, by ſome ſpeciall occaſion, according to the generall dutie of a Chriſtian, or a mans particular calling, thruſteth or draweth him foorth to giuegive teſtimonie to the truth, by maintaining it, or ſuffering for it. Which your ſelfe alſo afterward acknowledge, by the iudgement of the learned, who teach that profeſſion of faith is ſometimes neceſſarie to ſaluation.

Now for anſwer to your proofes, I ſay (as before) that the two former concerne eſpecially, the denying either of religion in generall, or ſome ſpeciall truth in queſtion, when the Lord, as it were, calleth vsus out to profeſſe and auouch it: as he did the Apoſtles ooMat. 10. 5.Matt 10:5in that place, by ſending them abroad to preach the Goſpell. If you (ſaith our Sauiour in effect) or any other miniſter ſhall forbeare to diſcharge your duties, by preaching my truth, and maintaining it, if you be called in queſtion for it, I will neuer acknowledge you for mine, in the kingdome of heauen. ppMat. 28. 19. Act. 10. 42.Matt 28:19Acts 10:42The Apoſtles calling neceſſarily required preaching of the word, and for them to hauehave failed in that dutie, for feare or ſhame, or otherwiſe, had bene to denie their Lord and maſter. Yet were they not ſo tied to this dutie, that they muſt needs continue their publicke preaching, in thoſe places, where perſecution was raiſed againſt them, but qqMat. 10. 23.Matt 10:23they might flee from one Citie to another: and yet not be counted to denie the Lord Ieſus. As for the Churches, that were gathered by the Apoſtles preaching, there is neither charge, nor reaſon to be ſhewed why they ſhould bewray themſelues to their perſecutors, by open practiſe of religion in the eies of the world. Indeed the worſhip of God is not to be neglected, though we cannot performe it without manifeſt daunger of our liues; but there is no p. 191neceſſitie to worſhip God publickly, where the truth is perſecuted. Therefore did the anciēt Chriſtiās, in ſuch places aſſemble as ſecretly as they could, neither leauing the exerciſes of religion for feare, nor by an incōſiderate zeal, hazarding their own liues. To denie Chriſt is not to conceale himſelfe frō perſecutors, but being found by them, to renounce his profeſſion: and ſo is the place ordinarily applied by rrCyprian. epiſt. 56. ad Thibar. Sect 3.Cyprian, ſſClerus Romā, ad Cyprian. epiſt. 30. 31. Cypria. epiſt. 55. ad Corncl. ſect. 13. Delapſis. ſect. 14 Ad Nouatian. haer. ſect. 7.the Clergie of Rome, and ttTertul. in Scor. cap 10. 11.Tertullian, men enough fauouring martyrdome. Yea uuDe fuga in perſec. cap. 14.Tertullian in that verie booke, wherein he labours to prooue, that it is not lawfull for a man to flie in time of perſecution: yet aduiſeth men to hold their aſſemblies for the exerciſes of religion, in the night time, if they cannot hauehave them conueniently in the day. xxTheophyl. ad Math. 10.Matt 10Theophylact expoundeth this confeſſion and deniall, of acknowledging, or denying Chriſt to be God. yyLuc. Brugen. ibi.Brugenſis ſomewhat more particularly, He that denieth me to be his Lord and Sauiour, that he beleeueth in me, that he ſticketh faſt to me, and my doctrine. So doth zzIanſe. harm. cap. 55.Ianſenius vnderſtandit, though he ſtretch it alſo to the denying of Chriſt, by wicked conuerſation. The denying of Chriſts name (ſaith aaLyra. ad Mat 10. 33.Matt 10:33Lyra) is alwaies a mortall ſinne, Not to confeſſe or be ſilent (concerning it) is ſometimes a mortall ſinne: As if a man be ſilent, when he is asked of it; If he profeſſe it, being not asked, it is a worke of ſupererogation. Doth any of theſe, or any man elſe, conclude the viſibilitie of the Church from theſe, or the like places of Scripture? No man is to denie our Sauiour, nor to be aſhamed of his truth. What then? Therefore muſt they that beleeue in Chriſt, openly make profeſſion thereof, at all times, without bbMat. 10. 16.Matt 10:16any wiſedome of the Serpent, for their owne preſeruation: or elſe can they not be ſaued? A cruell and fooliſh conceit.

This proofe is to as little purpoſe as the former. Confeſſion by mouth is required to ſaluation: therefore outward profeſſion of faith Rom. 10. 10.Rom 10:10is at all times neceſſarie. Who ſees not the weakneſſe of this cōſequence? Doth not he confeſſe with mouth, that ioynes himſelfe to ſome knowen Church of Chriſt, and communicates with them (ordinarily) in the outward worſhip of God: though all the world know not there are any ſuch beleeuers & profeſſors; yea though the people, among whom they liue, be not priuie p. 192to their meetings and profeſſion? There may be occaſion for a man, or a Church to manifeſt themſelues vntounto the world: and they that in ſuch a time ſhall faile, can looke for no merciemercy at the hands of God, without true and earneſt repentance. But this prooues not, that therefore the Churches muſt make ſuch publicke profeſſion, that they may at all times be knowen to all men. To perſwade vsus of the former (wherein there is no doubt) you tell vsus that Learned men (autors in the aire, as ccD. B. P. againſt the reformed Catholicke. pag. 677.one of your ſide ſaith, in the like caſe) interprete this place, to ſignifie that profeſſion of faith is ſometimes neceſſarie. Who euer denied it? But doth any learned man ſay, that therefore the Church muſt alwaies make ſuch profeſſion? That is the point in queſtion: and of that you are as dumbe as a fiſh: yea do you not perceiue, that ddLombard. & Gloſſ. Ordin. & interlin. ibi.your learned men, refute that conceit? Doth not he, that expoundeth that place of neceſſitie at ſometimes, denie that it requireth ſuch neceſſitie at all times? It is neceſſarie (ſaith Frier eeDominic. Sotus ad Rom. 10.Rom 10Soto) for a righteous man, that he may obtaine euerlaſting life, to confeſſe his faith with his mouth, whereſoeuer the time ffNeceſſarium praecepti tempus.neceſſarily required by this precept offers it ſelfe. Catharin your Biſhop ſpeaketh yet more plaine: ggAmbroſ. Catharin. ibi.Such confeſſion (namely, that a man confeſſe with his mouth, that which he beleeueth in his heart, as he expounded himſelfe a little before) is not alwaies required, but (as Thomas ſaith) according to the time and place. h Thomas. ibi. vide Thom. 2. 2 q. 3. art. 2.And indeed ſo Thomas ſaith, adding withall, that iiPraecepta affirmatiua obligant ſemper, ſcel non ad ſemper.Affirmatiue commaundements binde at all times, but require not performance at all times. Your interlinear and ordinarie Gloſſes, and Lombard reſtraine it to the time of perſecution: or at leaſt, when the truth is called in queſtion. Caietan makes this kkCaietan. ibi.when more generall, but ſignifieth, that this confeſſion is not at all times neceſſarie.

As for the times, when it is to be held for neceſſarie, your learned men do ſomewhat more particularly deliuer the point, then you report it. Confeſſion of Gods truth (quoth llSotus ad Rom. 10.Rom 10Sotus, and therein he followth mmThomas. ibi.Thomas) is neceſſarie vponupon paine of loſing ſaluation, either when it is required by a perſecutor of the faith, which confeſſion the martyrs made with their bloud: or when it is neceſſarie for thoſe nnSubditisthat belong to our charge, by danger of hereſie p. 193likely to enſue: which dutie of confeſsion properly concerneth Prelates, &c. Theſe occaſions hauehave many times bene offered, and accordingly ooSee Acts & monumēts of the Church.many profeſſors of that truth which wee now maintaine, hauehave, with the ſhedding of their bloud, giuen teſtimonie of the Goſpell, againſt the errours and tyrannie of your Antichriſtian Prelates. Thoſe holy martyrs, who from time to time hauehave bene butchered by your Synagogue of Sathan, were of the ſame Church with vsus, howſoeuer they ſaw not the truth of God in many points ſo clearely as it hath pleaſed him to reueale it to vsus by the miniſterie of his ſeruants in theſe latter dayes. If they vſed their beſt diſcretion and endeuours, to hide themſelues (as much as might be) from your furie, they did no more then the light of nature and Scripture warrant, to preſerue life, without denying their faith in the Lord Ieſus, or refraining to performe true worſhip to him, though they did it ſecretly. And thus much of your argument.

A. D. §. 5.

Fourthly if the Church were not viſible, we could not fulfill that Math. 18.Matt 18commaundement of our Sauiour, wherein he ſaid: Dic Eccleſiae: Tell the Church. For how can wee tell the Church any thing, if we cannot tell where to ſeeke it: neither if we did by chance meete it, could we know it to be the Church?

A. W.

If the Church (ſay you) be not viſible to al men, at all times, then can we not tell the Church, according to our Sauiours commaundement.

But we muſt tell the Church, according to his commaundement.

Therefore the Church muſt be viſible to all men, at all times.

That I may anſwer directly and plainly to your Syllogiſme, To the Propoſition.I muſt vnderſtand what you meane by Church and we. The Church may ſignifie in this place, either the whole companie of the faithfull, or ſeuerally euerie particular congregation, which yet properly is not the Church, but a Church. So may the other word We be taken for All men whatſoeuer, or onelyonly for ſuch as make profeſſion of Religion. Taking Church in p. 194the former ſenſe, I denie the conſequence of your Maior. We muſt fulfill that commaundement of our Sauiour, though the whole companie of the faithfull be not at all viſible. For the charge is not to tell the whole company, but the ſeuerall Churches whereof we are members. I hauehave ſhewed this before: I wil onelyonly put you in mind of a learned Papiſts expoſition, formerly alledged. We are not willed (ſaith ppLue. Brugenſ. ad Mat. 18. 17.Matt 18:17Brugenſis) to tell the vniuerſall Church ſpread ouer the earth, but that particular Church, qqCui conuiuit & ſubiect. &c.to which eueryevery man is ſubiect, and wherein he liues. If by we, you meane none but profeſſors of Religion, as our Sauiour Chriſt doth, and as rrSee Chap. 10 ſect. 8.Brugenſis, and all other interpreters vnderſtand it; then howſoeuer you take the Church for the whole companie, or the ſeuerall congregations, I denie your conſequence in that reſpect alſo. The faithfull may tell their particular Churches, whereof they are members, though the Church be not viſible to all men, at all times. It is enough if eueryevery man know his owne Church, to which he belongeth, though he know not of any other in the world.

Your minor is vtterly falſe, if (as you muſt needs do, according To the Aſſumption.to that you intend) you meane either all men, or the whole Church. For as I ſaid before, our Sauiours charge is neither to all men, but only to Profeſſors of Religion: nor concerning the whole Church, but particular congregations. And ſo your fourth reaſon proouing the viſibilitie of the Church, at all times to all men, by our Sauiours commaundement, to tell the Church, is of as ſmall force as the former. It is ſufficient, as I noted ere while, for the fulfilling of this charge, that euerie man know the Church, of which himſelfe is a member, and which he is to tell: and in this ſort the Churches are alwayes viſible.

A. D. §. 6.

Fiftly, it is certaine, that once the true Church of Chriſt was viſible, to wit, when it firſt began in Ieruſalem, in the Apoſtles and Diſciples of our Sauiour Chriſt, and that companie, which by their preaching was conuerted to the faith. But there can no reaſon be ſhewed, why it ſhould be viſible then, and not now. If it were needfull p. 195to be viſible then, becauſe otherwiſe it could not be a Church, that is, A Societie of men lincked together, in the profeſſion of one faith: in the vſe of the ſame Sacraments: vnderunder the gouernment of lawfull Paſtours: for the ſame reaſon, it muſt needs be viſible now; becauſe, (as in the laſt Chapter is prooued) there must be a Church now: and therefore it muſt be a ſocietie of men, profeſſing the ſame faith: vſing the ſame Sacraments: liuing vnderunder the gouernment of lawfull Paſtours. For all this pertaineth to the verie eſſence of the Church.

If alſo it were needfull to be viſible then, that thoſe offices and functiōs, which muſt be done in the Church, might be wel performed: to wit, as there were in the Church ſome Paſtors, & ſome ſheepe, (as Saint Gregory Nazianzene ſaith) ſome to commaund, ſome to obey: ſome to teach, ſome to be taught: ſome to feed the flocke of Oratione de moderat. in diſput. habenda.Chriſt, ſome to be fed: ſo (that euerie one of theſe, might do what pertained properly to his dutie;) it was needfull, that the Paſtors muſt know their ſheepe, and the ſheepe their Paſtours, and that thoſe that ſhould teach, and rule, and miniſter the Sacraments, muſt ſee, and know them, whom they were to teach and rule, and to whom they were to giuegive the Sacraments. And on the contrarie ſide, the other had need to hauehave knowen thoſe, of whom they must be taught, whom they muſt obey, & from whom they were to receiue the wholſome food of the holy Sacraments. If (I ſay) this reaſon prooue, that it was needfull then, that the Church ſhould be viſible and knowen: for the ſame reaſon, it will be alſo needfull to ſay, that the Church muſt be viſible, now, and at all times. For, at all times, there muſt be Paſtours and ſheepe in the Church, being the ſheepefold of Chriſt. And at all times theſe Paſtours muſt gouerne, inſtruct, and miniſter the holy Sacraments: and the other muſt receiue gouernement, inſtruction, and the foode of the holy Sacraments, at their hands. And conſequently, there had need be ſome viſible tokens, at all times, by which the Paſtours may know their ſheepe, leſt for want of this knowledge, they may vnawares, Dare ſanctū canibus, & proijcere margaritas ante porcos, GiueGive that which is holy to dogs, and Matth. 7.Matt 7caſt margarites before hogs, which our Sauiour commandeth them not to do. And on the other ſide, there had need be ſome viſible markes, by which the ſheepe may know and diſcerne their lawfull p. 196Paſtors, and true preachers, from falſe teachers, and intruding vſurpers. For otherwiſe, they could not tell, whom to heare & obey, and whom to repaire to for the Sacraments: and contrarie, whom to take heed of, as of falſe Prophets: whoſe voice to neglect, as of ſtrangers: and whoſe poiſoned food of polluted Sacraments to reiect, no leſſe then a baite laid to kill them by theeues and robbers; as it importeth greatly eueryevery one to do.

If laſtly it were needfull to be viſible then, that thoſe, which were out of it, might ioyne themſelues vntounto it, and become members of it; thereby to participate the graces and benedictions, which Chriſt our Lord communicated onelyonly to it; and to eſcape the deluge of eternall damnation, wherewith all was ſure to be drowned, that were found out of it, as it were, out of another Noe his Arke: this reaſon alſo requireth and vrgeth, that the Church muſt be viſible now, and at all other times. For if, at any time, it were not viſible; how could men, that were out of it, come vntounto it? Or how could they attaine ſaluation, if they did not enter into it? Sith at all times, the merits and fruits of Chriſts paſſion are incloſed in it: and the means of ſaluation, and to eſcape eternall damnation, are onelyonly found in it. The Church therefore is viſible at all times. For at all times, that prophecy of Iſaias muſt be true, wherein our Lord ſpeaketh thus to the Church: Aperiētur portae tuae iugiter, die ac nocte non claudentur; vt afferatur ad te fortitudo gentium, & reges earū adducantur; Iſa. 60.Isa 60Gens enim & regnū quod non ſeruierit tibi, peribit. Thy gates ſhal be cōtinually opened, day & night they ſhall not be ſhut, that the ſtrength of nations & the kings therof may be brought vntounto thee; for the nation & kingdome which ſhal not ſerue thee, ſhall periſh.

A. W.

This is your fift argument, wherein you hauehave waſted more paper, then in all the former. Let vsus ſee if your paines be not to as little purpoſe.

If the true Church (ſay you) was once viſible (you ſhould adde, to all men) and no reaſon can be ſhewed, why it ſhould be ſo then, and not now, then it is ſo now.

But the true Church was once viſible, and no reaſon can be ſhewed why it ſhould be ſo then, and not now.

Therefore the true Church is now viſible.

p. 197Who denies this concluſion? or what do you get by it? The To the Syllogiſme.queſtion is, whether the Church of Chriſt be alwayes viſible to all men, or no. You conclude, that it is now viſible, ſpeaking neither of all men, nor of all times; in which two points the whole controuerſie betwixt vsus lieth: ſaue that we alſo denie that there is any ſuch one Church, as you fondly ſuppoſe, without any ſhew of proofe. But that I may let nothing paſſe which is worth the anſwering, I will apply this argument of yours, as directly to the queſtion as I can. To ſpeake plaine to eueryevery mans vnderſtanding: the doubt is, whether there be not at all times ſome one companie of Chriſtians or other, that maketh publicke profeſſion of religion, ſo that all men whatſoeuer and whereſoeuer, may take notice of them, as the true Church of Chriſt, or no. In this queſtion we differ from you in two points. Firſt we ſay, that there neuer was any ſuch companie in the world, that could be knowne to all men. Secondly we adde farther, that eueryevery true Church may be ſo oppreſt and driuen into a corner, that it can be diſcerned by none but the members of it; and yet may continue in the practiſe of religion by the miniſtery of the word, ſacraments and cenſures. Now then, I thus frame your reaſon, for proofe of the queſtion.

If at any time there were a company of mē viſible to all the world, and no reaſon can be ſhewed why there ſhould at that time be ſuch a companie, and not at all other times alſo; then there hath bene alwayes, is now, and ſhall be for euer ſuch a companie viſible to all men.

But there was once ſuch a companie viſible to all men, and no reaſon can be ſhewed, why there ſhould be at any time, and not at all times.

Therefore there alwayes hath bene, is, and ſhal be ſuch a company viſible to all men.

I denie the conſequence of your maior; though there had To the propoſition.bin ſometime ſuch a company, and no man were able to ſhew ſufficient reaſon, why there ſhould be ſuch a companie then, and not alwayes; yet I ſay, it doth not follow, that therefore there muſt at all times be ſuch a companie. The ground of my deniall, is, that God hath not reuealed to men the reaſon of all p. 198his decrees and actions. Your Pope himſelfe (as preſumptuous as he is) I thinke, dares not vndertake to declare or determine, why many things fall out, which we ſee dayly come to paſſe. I preſume all this while, that you denie this poſſibilitie of giuing a reaſon, to men onelyonly, not to God alſo: for elſe your minor wil want little of blaſphemie.

Your minor hath two parts, and it is falſe in both. For neither To the Aſſumption.was the Church (as you ſpeake) in the Apoſtles time viſible to all men; and there may be ſome reaſon, why though it had bin ſo then, yet it ſhould not continue ſo alwayes. Of the former I hauehave ſaid enough heretofore; and it is a conceit without truth or likelihood, that all the world might take knowledge of the Church, when it began in Ieruſalem. For the other point, though I might ſtand vponupon it, and put you to proue, that there can no reaſon be giuen; yet will I endeuour for your better ſatisfaction, if it may be, to ſhew ſome reaſons why it muſt needs be viſible in the beginning (yet was it not then viſible to all mē) and need not be ſo at all times. But firſt let vsus examine your proofe. I will propound your reaſon in a ſyllogiſme, and then anſwer to it.

If the Church were in the Apoſtles time to be viſible, 1. becauſe otherwiſe it could not be a Church: 2. the offices and functions of the Church could not elſe be well performed: 3. elſe men could not ioyne themſelues vntounto it: and theſe reaſons, why it ſhould be viſible, ſtill continue; then no reaſon can be ſhewed, why it ſhould then be viſible, and not alwayes.

But it was then to be viſible for thoſe reaſons, and they alwayes continue.

Therefore no reaſon can be ſhewed, why it ſhould then be ſo viſible, and not alwayes.

I do purpoſely omit the former part of the Aſſumption, that the Church was viſible to all men, becauſe I ſpake ſufficiently of it before, and it wil but hinder the examining of this ſyllogiſme. To which that I may anſwer orderly and plainly, I deny To the propoſition.the conſequence of the maior. Although theſe three had bin ſome of the reaſons (whether they be or no, we will conſider in the Aſſumption) why the Church at the firſt muſt needs be p. 199viſible: and theſe reaſons ſtill continue: yet would it not follow, that then no reaſon can be ſhewed, why it ſhould be viſible then, and not ſo alwayes. For there may and ſhall be other reaſons giuen of the neceſſitie of viſibilitie in thoſe times.

Your minor alſo is falſe. Neuer a one of the three alledged To the Aſſumption.by you, is any neceſſary reaſon of the Churches viſibilitie in the Apoſtles times; as ſhal appeare in the handling of them. Wherein firſt I muſt ſpeake a word or two of the definition of the Church, as it is propounded in this place. In the whole courſe of your treatiſe, as I hauehave noted in my anſwer here and there, you meane by the Church nothing elſe but your Clergie, or rather your Bb. aſſembled together in a generall Councell. Here (belike vponupon better aduice) you are content to allow the people alſo for parts of the Church. But to let that paſſe: the firſt fault in your definition is, that you fancie to your ſelfe one viſible vniuerſall Church, conſiſting of all ſuch as you account true Chriſtians throughout the world: whereas you are not able to bring any place of Scripture, in which the holy Ghoſt ſo ſpeaketh of the church. I deny not, that all Chriſtians agreeing in one profeſſion, may in ſome ſort be ſaid to be of one church: but that the Church whereof the Scripture ſpeaks, and of which we therefore muſt ſpeake, if we will ſpeake to any purpoſe, is to be conceiued as any one ſuch ſocietie. The ſame word, the ſame ſacraments, the ſame kind of gouerners may be in diuers churches, and yet not all theſe be one ſocietie. We may imagine the like in common wealths or kingdomes, that ſeuerall ſtates may hauehave the ſame kind of lawes, cuſtomes and magiſtrates, and yet not be all one kingdome or common wealth. Your ſecond fault is, that vndertaking to define the true church, you content your ſelfe with the ſame faith, and the ſame ſacraments: whereas no company nor man can be of that church, but they that hold the true faith of Chriſt, and the right vſe of the ſacraments. The third thing I will obſerue, is rather by way of explication, then of refutation: you require the gouernment of lawfull paſtors, as a thing eſſentiall to the church. If you ſpeake of that church, to which our Sauiour makes thoſe goodly promiſes ſſMat. 16. 16. & 28. 20.Matt 16:16Matt 28:20in the Goſpell, it may be for a time without ſuch gouerners: the promiſes p. 200themſelues not concerning the whole bodie, in reſpect of their lawfull Paſtors, but eueryevery particular, in regard of his faith in Ieſus Chriſt. And indeed, howſoeuer it be true, that to the being of a Church, as it is commonly taken, it is neceſſary that there be both a paſtor and a people: yet a people depriued of their paſtors by what meanes ſoeuer, and hauing no dependance vponupon any other congregation, doth not ceaſe to be ſuch a Church as our Sauiour promiſeth to protect from ſpiritual and bodily enemies: yea a people ſo deſtitute, hath power to chuſe a paſtor for themſelues, and therefore are ſtill in ſome ſort a Church, becauſe that power is no where out of a Church, but is appropriated to the companies of beleeuers, who make ſeueral Churches, though not properly and fully Churches, for want of lawfull gouerners. In the laſt place, I may not omit to note your craft, in adding to your definition of the Church, the gouernment of lawfull Paſtors; as if you would hauehave the ignorant imagine, that there were certaine Paſtors who had ſome ioynt gouernment of the Church: for example, perhaps your Pope, and his Councell of Cardinals, or a Councel of Biſhops aſſembled by his authoritie, and gouerned by his direction. In this ſenſe we vtterly denie, that any gouernment of Paſtors is neceſſary to the being of a Church; though we gladly embrace the helpes of Synodall, prouinciall, nationall and generall Councels. All true Churches properly ſo called, are gouerned by their ſeuerall Paſtors: but this makes them not one church, as long as there are not more, or at the leaſt one, gouerner cōmō to thē al. This ttBellar. de Eccleſ. milit. lib. 3 cap. 2. Turrian. de Eccleſ. & ordin. miniſtr. Stapl. princip. doct. controu. 1. lib. 1. cap. 3.the learned of your ſide diſcerning (though you cannot or wil not ſee it) neuer define the Church without relation to one generall paſtor, the Pope of Rome. As for the ſeuerall paſtors, be they neuer ſo lawful, they do no more make their congregations one Church, in reſpect of their gouernment, then the Companies of London, becauſe they are gouerned by their Maiſter and Wardens, (ſeuerally) make one bodie, without reſpect of their common ſubiection to the Lord Mayor of that citie. You wil then perhaps demand of me, whether the Church be not a meere ſound onelyonly, hauing nothing truly anſwerable thereunto indeed? I anſwer to this queſtion, that the Church p. 201is more then a meere ſound, and hath a thing in nature truly anſwerable to the name, and that in two reſpects. For the Church may be taken for the whole multitude of them, that in all places of the world profeſſe the Goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt: and in this ſenſe it containes all, ſaue the Iewes and the heathen. Secondly, the Church truly and properly is the companie of the elect, that are called to true faith in Ieſus Chriſt. More particularly it ſignifieth ſuch of the elect beleeuers, as are liuing in the world. And this is that Church, to which thoſe glorious and comfortable promiſes of our Sauiour do appertaine: though there be alſo ſome promiſes of outward bleſſings, which are common to all Churches and profeſſors of Chriſtian Religion. Now theſe elect thus called, are truly a Church, becauſe they are a companie linked together in the ſound profeſſion of the ſame true faith, and members of the ſame mysticall bodie of Ieſus Chriſt, vnderunder the gouernment of the holy Ghoſt his Ʋicegerent. I do not take vponupon me exactly to define the Church, but onelyonly to ſhew in groſſe, what is neceſſary to the being of it; nor perhaps all that, but the eſpeciall point, where in you hauehave failed, which is ſubiection to one and the ſame Lieutenant and Soueraigne, not to diuers of the like kind ſeuerally, as your definition ſeemeth to require. But of this matter enough.

Now I anſwer to your minor, that there was no neceſſitie of the Churches viſibilitie, that it might be ſuch a ſocietie as you imagine. For there hauehave bin, and eaſily may be ſuch ſocieties, which may be, and hauehave bin hid from all the world, ſaue thoſe of their owne companie. Conſider I pray, what ſhould hinder this. Is it not poſſible for a companie of men to profeſſe the ſame religion, but other men muſt needs be priue to that their profeſſion? It is like enough, that ſuch a company growing to a great multitude, and ordinarily. holding the exerciſes of their Religion, will in time be diſcouered: as it fell out with the true Chriſtians in the late perſecution vnderunder Queene Marie. But this proueth not, that therefore there cannot be any ſuch ſocietie, but the world muſt needs take knowledge of it. Could your deteſtable traitors band them ſelues together in that monſtrous plot of treaſon and murder by gunpowder, yea and aſſemble p. 202ſo often, and worke ſo hard in the diuels ſeruice, without being deſcried: and cannot God by his prouidence keepe his ſeruants, meeting together for his worſhip, but that Satan ſhall certainly diſcouer them? It is more then manifeſt (how long or ſhort a while ſoeuer they may keepe themſelues vnknowne) that they may be ſuch a companie, and not by and by be knowne.

The ſecond point in the firſt part of your minor is this, and thus concluded.

If the Pastors were to know the ſheepe, and the ſheepe the Paſtors, and this could not be, vnleſſe the Church were viſible; then was this one reaſon of the Churches being viſible.

But the Paſtors were to know the ſheepe, and the ſheepe the Paſtors, and this could not be vnleſſe the Church were viſible.

Therefore this is one reaſon of the Churches being viſible.

I may graunt you the whole Syllogiſme, in the termes it is To the Syllogiſme.propounded by you, and yet neither I loſe, nor you get any thing. For there is no more concluded by it, but that the church muſt be viſible to the members of it: the Paſtor muſt know the ſheepe, and the ſheepe the Paſtor: Which of vsus euer denied this viſibilitie? or what is this to proue, that the Church in the beginning of the Goſpell was to be famouſly viſible in the eies of all the world?

In a word then to your propoſitions ſeuerally: you muſt adde To the propoſition.to your maior, one of theſe two clauſes, either to the members of it, ſignifying that the Paſtors and ſheepe could not know one another, vnleſſe the Church were then viſible to the members of it; or to all men, meaning that there could not be ſuch mutuall knowledge betwixt the Paſtor and the ſheepe, vnles the church were viſible to all men. In the former ſenſe your propoſition is true, but altogether wide from the marke you ayme at. In the latter you ſhoote right, but a great deale ouer. For though your conſequence by this meanes wil proue true, and to the purpoſe; yet your minor wil be ouerlarge, and your queſtion ſtil remaine vnproued. For it is ridiculous to imagine, not onelyonly to affirme, To the Aſſumption.that the Paſtor and flocke cannot know each other, except all p. 203the world know them too. Why may not the like be ſaid of the husband and the wife, the father and the children, the maiſter and the ſeruants? May there not be gouerning and obeying, but where all men ſee theſe actions performed? But I dwell too long vponupon ſo cleare a matter. OnelyOnly I was deſirous to ſuite my anſwer ſomewhat like to your argument, for the length of it, leſt ſhortneſſe might make your followers thinke it not well anſwered.

We are now come to the third point of the former part, which you conclude thus.

If men, that were out of the church, were to come into it for ſaluation, and this could not be vnles it were viſible, then was this one reaſon of the viſibilitie thereof.

But men out of it, were to come into it for ſaluation, and this could not be, vnleſſe it were viſible.

Therefore this is one reaſon of the Churches viſibilitie.

This is the onelyonly argument of the three, that hath any ſhew To the Aſſumption.of reaſon in it: and yet this alſo is far from any neceſſary proofe. For if in your minor you meane, that all and eueryevery man was to come into the Church for ſaluation, as if God had intended the ſaluation of eueryevery particular man by the publiſhing of the Goſpell: your ſaid minor is in that reſpect falſe. For our Sauiour himſelfe uuLuk. 10. 21.Luke 10:21giueth his Father thankes, that he had hid the myſteries of the Goſpell, euen there where it was publikly preached, from the wiſe and men of vnderſtanding, and reuealed it to babes or ſimple men. Yea he profeſſeth, that there was an eſpeciall act of God his Father required xxIoh. 6. 44. 65.John 6:44John 6:65to the drawing of men to beleefe, euen there where himſelfe preached moſt powerfully, and that ſome only and not all, were ſo drawne by God. Neither doth the difference in this caſe proceed from man, but from God; leſt that man, which makes the difference betwixt himſelfe and another, ſhould hauehave iuſt cauſe to boaſt, as if he were more beholding to himſelfe, of whom he had the very act of being willing to be ſaued, then to God, who onelyonly gaue him power to be willing. Therefore yyThom. ad Rom. 9. See Chap. 5. ſect. 1. C.Rom 9your glorious and Angelicall D^r. Thomas ſaith, that there can no more reaſon be giuen why God intendeth the ſaluation of this man, and not of that man, then why the Maſon layeth p. 204this ſtone aboue, and that below, each of them hauing a like fitneſſe to each place. But if by men, you vnderſtand thoſe men that were choſen of God to euerlaſting life, zzAct. 13. 48.Acts 13:48to whom onelyonly the preaching of the Goſpell was effectuall to true faith and ſaluation, then I denie your minor in regard of the latter part alſo. For there was no neceſſitie of the viſibilitie of the Church to that purpoſe, as if God could not otherwiſe hauehave procured that they ſhould beleeue and be ſaued: I adde farther, that the meanes which it pleaſed God to vſe, for the conuerting of thoſe that were then to be ſaued, and ordinarily for publiſhing the glad tidings of the Goſpell, was not the viſibleneſſe of the Church, but the preaching of his Apoſtles. So that (as I ſignified before) the greateſt natiōs of the world embraced the Goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt, not becauſe they ſaw ſome viſible Church, to which they might adioyne themſelues, but for the euidence of the truth which ſome one man or other preached to them, without any reference or reſpect to any viſible Church whatſoeuer. aaAct. 8. 4.Acts 8:4The diſſoluing of the viſible Church at Ieruſalem, was the occaſion of preaching the Goſpell through the world.

Hauing thus examined your ſeuerall proofes, I returne now to your principal aſſumption; for the farther confuting wherof, I muſt ſhew, that there may be ſome reaſon giuen, why it might pleaſe God to hauehave the Churches viſible in the beginning, and not alwayes. To which purpoſe I muſt firſt intreate all men to vnderſtand, that I do not vndertake preciſely to ſet downe the reaſons why God wil hauehave his churches ſomtimes famouſly knowen, ſometimes hidden from the knowledge of the world. For his counſels are vnſearchable, and his wayes paſt finding out. Farther, I acknowledge in all truth and humbleneſſe, that I hold the reuealed will of God for a ſufficient reaſon of any thing which he doth will, though I could in my ignorance obiect ſomthing againſt it, which might affoord ſome cauſe of doubting. With this proteſtation I ſay, theſe might be ſome reaſons. Firſt, wheras the means of ſaluation had bin, for a long time, ſhut vp in the land of Iurie, and in a manner, made proper to the Iewes; now the partition wall being broken downe, p. 205the Gentiles alſo were to be receiued into the Couenant; which (to our reaſon at leaſt) could not conueniently hauehave bene done, vnleſſe the profeſſion of the truth had bene famous and viſible. But when once by this meanes the ſound of it was gone ouer the world, there was no ſuch neceſſitie of continuing viſible Churches. Secondly, this viſibilitie was at the firſt the more neceſſarie, becauſe otherwiſe the Iewes, bbAct. 2. 38.Acts 2:38to whom firſt the Goſpel appertained, being diſperſed in many nations, could not ſo eaſily take knowledge of it: now cc& 13. 46.they hauehave iudged themſelues vnworthie of it, and the Lord hath giuen it to vsus Gentiles. Thirdly, it was no ſmall proofe of the truth of the Goſpell, and the power of God working by the miniſtery of the word, that ſo great multitudes ſhould ſo ſpeedily be conuerted by ſo weake meanes: there is not alwaies the like vſe of the Churches viſibleneſſe. Fourthly, though the Lord in his merciemercy, would hauehave the Goſpell publiſhed to the world, yet when it became generally abuſed to wantonneſſe, that mens eares itched after new doctrines, and eſteemed more of their owne deuiſes, then of the true worſhip of God, appointed by himſelfe; it pleaſed his maieſtie to leaue men to their owne blindneſſe, and preſumption, reſeruing to himſelfe a ſmall companie here and there, whom he kept, as the 7000 in Elias time. Laſtly it was requiſite that the prophecies in dd2. Theſ. 2. 10.2 Thess 2:10Paul and eeReuel. 17. 1.Rev 17:1Iohn, concerning Antichriſt, and his tyrannie, and vniuerſall Apoſtacie, ſhould be fulfilled; which could not hauehave come to the iuſt height of extremitie, if any Churches, at leaſt in thoſe parts where Antichriſt preuailed, had continued viſible. Theſe are a few of thoſe reaſons, which in the blind iudgement of man, not able to ſound the depth of Gods ſecrets, might be an occaſion of making the Churches of Chriſt ceaſe to be famous, and of keeping the true profeſſors ffReuel. 12. 6.Rev 12:6ſhut vp in the wilderneſſe; till the time appointed by God for Antichriſts decay and ruine approached. Yet did not the Lord all this time, leaue himſelfe and his truth without witneſſe, but from time to time, ſtirred vp the ſpirits of his children, to make the world ſearch the Scriptures, and diſcerne, if they would, that your Church of Rome ſo famous & viſible, was corrupted with many errors, and become p. 206the verie ſeat of Antichriſt. Thus I hauehave anſwered your fift reaſon, in the concluſion whereof you adde a teſtimonie of Scripture, to confirme the neceſſitie of the Churches perpetuall viſibleneſſe to all men.

If (ſay you) ggEſai. 60. 11.Isa 60:11that prophecie of Eſay (Thy gates ſhall be continually open) muſt at all times be true, then the Church is viſible at all times, to all men.

But that Prophecie muſt be true at all times.

Therefore the Church, is viſible at all times, to all men.

Though you ordinarily leaue out that clauſe of the Churches To the ſyllogiſme.viſibleneſſe to all men, yet I make bold to ſupply it; becauſe I am deſirous to perſwade my ſelfe, that you doe ſo, rather for ſhortneſſe ſake, then in a craftie purpoſe to deceiue the Reader.

I denie the conſequence of your Maior: firſt, becauſe that prophecy may be alwaies true, and yet the Church not alwaies To the propoſition.viſible. For all prophecies in Scripture are alwaies true, as being from God, and yet doth it not follow hereupon, that therefore whatſoeuer is prophecied muſt alwaies be true. It was prophecied by God himſelfe, that hhGen. 15. 13.Gen 15:13the children of Iſraell ſhould be ſeruants in Aegypt: May I then ſay as you do If this prophecie muſt alwaies be true, they muſt alwaies be ſeruants in Aegypt? I trow not. Prophecies are alwaies true; but true onelyonly, according to the meaning of them: that ſuch or ſuch things muſt be, at the time, and in the manner ſignified by them. If you ſay, your meaning is no more, but that if that prophecie be true, then the Church is alwaies viſible to all men; I anſwer, that At all times was put in without cauſe, and might as you ſee, breed a queſtion in your propoſition.

Secondly, taking your Maior in that ſenſe, I ſtill denie the conſequence of it. For the gates of the Church may be open at all times, & yet all men neither ſee thē alwaies open, nor know that there are any ſuch gates, or Church. Might not the gates of Mexico, or ſome Citie in the Eaſt Indies, China, or America be alwaies open, and yet none in theſe weſterne parts euer heare of any ſuch Citie? You will ſay perhaps, that the Prophet by the gates being open, ſignifieth the viſibilitie of the p. 207Church. It is not enough to ſay ſo, vnleſſe you prooue it too. But that I may yeeld ſomewhat of my right in this caſe, and not put you to your proofes in ſo hard a matter: I anſwer with iiAuguſt. de ciuit. dei lib. 20 cap. 68.Auſtin ſpeaking of ſuch prophecies and promiſes, that this place belongeth properly to the Church of the elect, into which, without any restraint, many of the Gentiles do enter continually from day to day, by their actuall beleeuing truly in Ieſus Chriſt. Which anſwer may the better appeare to be true, if we conſider that this promiſe is made to the Iewes, whoſe Churchgates muſt alwaies ſtand opē to entertain the Gentiles coming vntounto it. But this can no way be true of the outward Church of the Iewes, which then floriſhed in Ieruſalem, & was vtterly deſtroyed ſome fortie yeares after our Sauiours aſcenſion. Therefore it muſt belong to that remnant of Iſrael, kkRom. 9. 6. 7. & 11. 2. 7.Rom 9:6Rom 9:7Rom 11:2Rom 11:7which is according to the election of grace. Do not replie to this anſwer, that the gates of this Church were alwaies open, euen before our Sauiours coming. For this Church, in reſpect of the Gentiles, had not a gate then, but a little wicket, which ſtood not alwaies open, but was opened now and then, vponupon occaſion, when it pleaſed God, to bring ſome one or other of the heathen, extraordinarily to ſaluation, by the acknowledging of the Meſſiah to come. Theſe gates are now, & hauehave bene this 1500 yeares and vpward ſhut vp againſt the Iewes: as llRom. 9. & 10Rom 9the Apoſtle lamentably coplaines, not, as ſome imagine, becauſe the viſible Church was tranſlated frō the Iewes to the Gentils, which Paul would neuer ſo ambitiouſly hauehave affected, as in reſpect of that mmRom. 9. 3.Rom 9:3To be contented to become Anathema, that his countrimen might enioy the glorious ſmoke of ſuch an outward priuiledge (I ſpeake in compariſon of election to euerlaſting life:) but for that the Lord would giuegive ouer his people the Iewes, and not chooſe (ordinarily) out of them, heires of his heauenly kingdome, as before he had done. We ſee, and reioyce at the ſight, that the Lord of his great merciemercy, calleth out ſome few from amongſt that deſperate multitude of the Iewes, as before he did out of the Gentiles, but the gates are now ſet open, for the Gentiles, and a ſmall poſterne for the Iewes.

But what if I ſhould grant you, that this prophecie may alſo p. 208be expounded of the outward profeſſion of Religion, muſt the Church then needs be viſible at all times to all men? The maine reaſon of the gates continuall ſtanding open, is ſignified by the Prophet to be this: That the ſtrength of the nations, and their kings may come into the Church. But this was long ago fulfilled, by the iudgement of your owne writers. The ſtrength of the nations, that is the moſt warlike nations ſaith Vatablus: which (ſaith nnVatabl. ad Eſay. 60. 11.Isa 60:11he) was fulfilled; when the Romanes were added to the Church. The opening of the gates, ooLyra. ibi.Lyra referreth to Conſtantines time, and therefore in his iudgement, they were ſhut more then 300. yeares after Chriſt. And ſo farre is he from once thinking on the viſibilitie of the Church, prophecied of in this place, that he brings three other interpretations, and not mentions your conceit. The gates ſhall be open: becauſe (ſaith Lyra) Conſtantine commaunded, that the Church gates ſhould be opened, which before were ſhut, and that new Churches ſhould be built. This alſo may be expounded (ſaith he) of ſpirituall opening, becauſe the Church is alwaies open, to receiue them, that repent. And becauſe, ſince Constantines time, men began to flocke to the Church of Chriſt without feare. The ſtrength of the nations was brought, becauſe (ſaith the ſame Author) by the example of Constantine, many Potentates and kings came to the faith of Chriſt. The gates of the Church (ſaid ppHieron. ad Eſay. 60 li. 17.Isa 60Ierome, before Poperie was hatched) ſhall alwaies be open to them, that deſire to be ſaued, that entrance may not be denied, either in proſperitie or aduerſity, to them that will beleeue. Thus this place of Eſay will not prooue the viſibilitie of the Church, to all men at all times.

A. D. §. 7.

Sixtly, the onelyonly reaſon and ground, by which heretickes hold the Church to be inuiſible, is, becauſe they imagine the Church to conſiſt onelyonly of the elect, or onelyonly of the good. But this is a falſe ground, as appeareth by the name of Church in Greeke Eccleſia, which euen by the Etymology of the word, doth ſignifie the companie of men called: now ſure it is, that moe are called then elected, as our Sauiour ſaith, Multi vocati, pauci electi. Againe, this ground is ſhewed to be falſe, by thoſe parables, in which the Church is compared to a Math. 20. Math. 3. Math. 23. Math. 13.Matt 20Matt 3Matt 23Matt 13floare, wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed. And to a mariage, to which came good and bad. And to a net, wherein are gathered all p. 209ſorts of fiſhes good and bad. And to ten Ʋirgins, wherof fiue were fooliſh, and excluded from the celeſtiall mariage. This ground is Mat. 25.Matt 25alſo ſhewed to be falſe out of Saint Paule, who commaundeth the Corinthians, to expell an inceſtuous perſon out of the Church. Ergo, 1. Cor. 5.1 Cor 5before this expulſion, there was ſuch a perſon in the Church, and therefore the Church doth not conſiſt, onelyonly of thoſe, that be good.

A. W.

Becauſe your owne reaſons are not ſtrong enough, to proue the point in queſtion, you thinke to helpe the matter by ouerthrowing the ground, whereupon onelyonly, as you confidently auouch, we build our deniall of the Churches viſibility at all times. But neither is that our onelyonly ground, and if it were, you are not able to ſhake it. Concerning the former, we denie the viſibilitie of the Church, as it is vnderſtood in thoſe places, where our Sauiour promiſeth ſpirituall graces to it, and as it is taken in the Creed; becauſe that Church is the myſticall bodie of Chriſt, and therefore can conſiſt of none but thoſe, that are truly iuſtified and ſanctified, as none but the elect are. But we farther denie the ſame viſibilitie, becauſe you would hauehave vsus beleeue that the Catholicke Church is viſible. To which we anſwer, that this Catholickneſſe (let the Church be what it will) maketh it inuiſible: becauſe Ariſtot. & omnes logici.that which is Catholicke, is generall, conſiſting of many particulars: and we hauehave learned, that vniuerſals are not ſubiect to ſenſe, but onelyonly to be conceiued by the minde, as hauing no outward ſhape, which can be ſeene or knowen by any of the fiue ſenſes. Moreouer, if we take the queſtion, in the moſt reaſonable ſort that may be, (and ſo it is verie ſeldome handled by you) Whether there muſt alwaies be ſome one or other companie of men, that may be famouſly knowen of all the world, to be a true Church of Chriſt: Still we continue in denying that viſibilitie. Firſt, as it is propounded by you, for an Article of Faith, and an eſſentiall propertie of the, or a true Church. Secondly, becauſe we are taught in the Scriptures, that the true Church, that is, the profeſſours of Chriſts true Religion, ſhall be faine to flie into the wilderneſſe, and ſo muſt needes be out of the ſight of (at leaſt) the greateſt part of the world. I am p. 210loth to repeate theſe things ſo often, but you driue me to it: my helpe is to do it, as ſhortly as I can.

All the forces you bring to ouerturne the ground, vponupon which our denial of the Churches viſibilitie ſtādeth, are diuided by you into two bands, with the former whereof, thus you ſet vponupon vsus.

The companie of men called, conſiſteth not of the elect onelyonly.

The Church is the companie of men called.

Therefore the Church conſiſteth not of the elect onelyonly.

I denie your Minor: many men are called, that are not of the To the aſſumption.Church, which conſiſteth of ſuch onelyonly, as being called, are alſo elect. It is true that the word Church is ſometimes ſo generally taken, that it compriſeth all ſuch, as make profeſſion of faith in Chriſt, but this is not the Church, of which the Creed ſpeaketh, and to which our Sauiours promiſes apppertaine: yea beſides this Church, there is the true Church of Chriſt, whereof he is head, whoſe bodie hath neuer a rotten or dead member, ſuch as ouer many, perhaps the greateſt part of them, that make profeſſion of beleefe, commonly are. In a word, the whole courſe of your Treatiſe failes in this point, that whereas the word Church is diuerſly taken, you apply that to it, in the generall meaning of the word, which was ſpoken of it by our Sauiour, the Prophets and Apoſtles, in that ſpeciall ſignification, by which it containeth none but the elect.

To your proofe I anſwer farther. Firſt that the word foreign, in the verie nature of it, doth not ſignifie The companie, that is any certaine companie called, but generally a company, that is any ſuch companie whatſoeuer. Secondly I adde, that the word is alſo ſometimes taken for a companie, whether called or not called: as, rrPſal. 26. 5. foreign.Ps 26:5I hauehave hated the companie of the wicked. Where the Prophet ſpeaketh not of any companie called together, but abſolutely of the wicked, howſoeuer aſſembled, or not aſſembled. Thirdly, I ſay it is enough, in reſpect of the nature, and Etymology of the word, that the Church be a companie of men called, neither can it any way be enforced from the ſignification of it in Greeke, that the Church muſt needs comprehend all, that are in any ſort called. Indeed the elect onelyonly may p. 211Rom. 8. 30.Rom 8:30truly be ſaid to be called, in an eſpeciall manner: becauſe they hauehave beſides the outward ſound of the preacher, the inward voice of the ſpirit, and are not onelyonly called to beleeue the truth of the Goſpell, but alſo to beleeue truly in Ieſus Chriſt to ſaluation:

This is your rereward, with which you charge vsus afreſh, and that as it were, both with foote and horſe. Firſt you throng together many places of Scripture, as if your confidence were greater in your number, then in vour valour: Let vsus encounter you.

That, which is compared to a floare, wherein wheat and chaffe are mixed.

To a mariage, to which come good and bad.

To a net, wherein are gathered all ſorts of fiſhes, good and bad.

To ten virgins, whereof fiue were fooliſh and ſhut out from the coeleſtiall mariage, conſiſteth not of the elect onelyonly.

The Church is compared to ſuch a floare, marriage, net, virgins.

Therefore the Church conſiſteth not of the elect onelyonly.

A verie hot aſſault: but your bullets fall a great way ſhort of To the ſyllogiſme.the marke, you do, or ſhould aime at. For all you prooue by this reaſon is onelyonly this, that the Church, taken for the whole companie of them, that make profeſſion of the Goſpell, conſiſteth not onelyonly of the elect. Who euer dreamed it did? You are ſo farre from ouerturning our ground, that you neuer once come neare it, for all this braue ſhew you make.

In particular, I denie your Minor. The Church we ſpeake To the aſſumption.of, is not compared to any ſuch things. The Church (ſaith ſſAuguſt. epiſt. 48. ad Vincent.Auſtin) which groweth in all natiōs, is preſerued in the lords wheat, and ſhall be ſo preſerued to the end, till it hauehave taken poſſeſſion of all, yea euen the moſt barbarous nations. The floare (in ttAuguſt. vbi ſupra.Auſtins iudgement) is not the Church, but the place rather, in which the Church is kept: for that (as he truly ſaith) is the wheat. And in the ſame Epiſtle he ſpeaketh yet more plaine of an other of your parables. That is the Church, (ſaith uuVbi ſupra.Auſtin) which ſwimmeth in the Lords net with naughtie fiſhes, from which in heart and behauiour, it alwaies is ſeparated. Could any thing be ſpoken more direct? The floare and the net are, in a generall p. 212ſenſe, the Church; but the true Church indeed is, in the one the wheat, not the chaffe, in the other, the good fiſhes, that ſwimme among the naughtie ones. I may alſo farther except againſt theſe Parables, becauſe they are otherwiſe applied, then they are intended by our Sauiour; who neuer meant, by any one of them to teach, that the Church conſiſteth not of the elect onelyonly. Who (ſaith xxAuguſt. ad Vincent. epiſt. 48.Auſtin) can, without great impudencie, go about to prooue anything for his purpoſe, by interpretation of any Allegorie, vnleſſe he hauehave manifeſt teſtimonies, whereby thoſe matters, that are obſcure in it, be cleared?

This is your laſt charge, to as ſmall purpoſe, as either of the former.

If there may be an inceſtuous perſon (ſay you) in the Church, then it conſiſteth not onelyonly of thoſe, that be good.

But there may be an inceſtuous perſon in the Church.

Therefore the Church conſiſteth not onelyonly of thoſe, that be good.

It is apparent that by good, you vnderſtand thoſe, that cannot be charged with any groſſe outward ſinne, as Inceſt, or ſuch To the ſyllogiſme.like. In which ſenſe, I ſay your concluſion is nothing to the purpoſe. For we do not affirme, that no man is of the Church, which by any occaſion falleth into ſome grieuous ſinne: ſo ſhould we exclude Peter, yyMat. 26 70.Matt 26:70when he denied his maſter; Dauid, zz2. Sam. 12. 9.2 Sam 12:9when he committed adulterie and murther; Noe, aaGen. 9. 21.Gen 9:21when he was drunke; Abraham, bbGen. 12. 23. & 20. 5.Gen 12:23Gen 20:5when he lied, and many other: who for all theſe ſinnes, held faſt their faith in the Meſſiah, and continued true members of Ieſus Chriſt, according to Gods election, howſoeuer thoſe ſinnes of theirs deſerued ſeparation from Chriſt, and damnation. The Church may conſiſt of ſome, who for the preſent, are in regard of ſome great ſin, not good, and yet conſiſt of the elect only, as the former examples ſhew.

Farther, I denie the conſequence of your Maior. It is not To the propoſition.all one to be in the Church, and of the Church, that is, to be an outward profeſſor, and to be a true beleeuer. And that the Church is the companie of the elect, in the iudgement of the ancient writers, theſe teſtimonies ſhew. ccAmbroſ. ad Eph. 3.Eph 3Ambroſe maketh the p. 213Church, the people, whom God hath vouchſafed to adopt. Whereas the Church (ſaith ddAuguſt. de bapt. contra Donat. lib. 5. cap. 27. & lib. 6. cap. 3.Auſtin) is ſo deſcribed in the Canticles, that it is called a fenced garden, my ſiſter, ſpouſe, a fountaine ſealed vp, a well of liuing water, a paradiſe with fruite; I dare not vnderſtand this but of the holy and righteous. The holy Church (quoth eeGreg. in Cant. & in Iob 28. cap. 9.Job 28Gregory) is a garden, becauſe when it begets many to the faith, it ſends forth faire flowers, like a good ground. And it is well called a fenced garden, becauſe it is fortified round about with the trench of charitie, that no reprobate may come into the number of the elect. If the ſpouſe of Chriſt, which is the Church, be a fenced garden (ſaith ffCyprian. ad Mag. epiſt. 76. ſect. 2.Cyprian) being ſhut vp, it cannot lie open to the prophane and ſtrangers. But what ſhould I recite ſeuerall teſtimonies? Looke ggOrigen. & Bernar. in can. ſerm. 78.Origen, Bernard, and other writers vponupon the Canticles, and you ſhall eaſily ſee, that the ſpouſe of Chriſt is the companie of the elect.

A. D. §. 8.

Laſtly, the ancient Fathers did teach, that the Church is viſible. Hom. 30. in Mat.Origen ſaith, Eccleſia plena eſt fulgore ab oriente vſque ad occidentem: The Church is full of brightneſſe from the East to the Weſt. Eccleſia (ſaith S. Cyprian) Domini luce perſuſa, radios ſuos per orbem ſpargit: The Church being bright with the light Lib. de Vnitate Eccleſ.of our Lord, doth ſpread her beames throughout the world. Facilius eſt (ſaith S. Chryſoſtome) ſolem extingui quàm Eccleſiam obſcurari: Lib. 4. in cap. 6 Iſa.It is more eaſie that the Sunne ſhould be extinguiſhed, then that the Church ſhould be obſcured, that is to ſay, darkened and quite without light. Saint Auguſtine alſo alluding to (or rather expounding) thoſe words of our Sauiour, Non poteſt ciuitas abſcondi ſupra montem poſita, ſaith, Eccleſia ſupra montem conſtituta, Lib. 3. cōtr. epi. Parm. cap. 4.abſcondi non poteſt: The Church being built vponupon a mountaine, cannot be hid. And againe in another place he ſaith, Quid amplius dicturus ſum quàm caecos, qui tam magnum montem non vident, Troct. 2. in ep. Ioan.qui contra lucernam in candelabro poſitam, oculos claudunt? What ſhall I ſay more, but that they are blind who do not ſee ſo great a mountaine, who ſhut their eyes at the candle ſet vponupon the candleſticke?

A. W.

Theſe and ſuch like ſpeeches of the Fathers, were vttered by them for the moſt part, concerning the Church, as it flouriſhed in their dayes; and not of the perpetuall eſtate therof, from time p. 214to time. Neither ſpeake they properly of the Church, which is indeed the ſpouſe of our Sauiour the bridegroome: but of the multitude of them, who hold the truth of doctrine againſt all cauils and oppoſitions of hereticks; amongſt whom only the Church of the elect ordinarily was preſerued. Your reaſon then is little worth.

The Fathers ſay, the Church is viſible.

Therefore it is alwayes viſible to all men.

The conſequēce of your Enthymem is naught, as wel becauſe it might be viſible in thoſe times, and not always; as alſo for that it is not all one to ſay it is viſible, and it is viſible to all men at all times. Now to the particulars.

Firſt I anſwer to hhOrigen. in Mat. hom. 30.Origens teſtimonie, that he ſpeakes not of the Churches viſibilitie, but affirmes that the truth (which is the brightneſſe or light he mentions) is in the Churches eueryevery where, East and Weſt. That this is his meaning, it is plaine by the beginning of that homily, and the whole courſe of it, to the very place you alledge. Origen expounds there that place of the Goſpell, As the lightning cometh out of the Eaſt. This expoſition begins thus. We must know (ſaith Origen) that the brightneſſe of the truth doth not appeare in one place of Scripture, and cannot be defended by another, but that it may be maintained out of all parts of Scripture, the Law, the Prophets, the Gospels, and the Apoſtles writings. And this truth ariſing from the Eaſt, that is, the beginnings of Chriſt, ſhineth to the very time of his paſſion, in which was his ſetting or fall. A little after: We may alſo thus vnderſtand it, that Chriſt appeared to be the word, and the truth, and wiſedome, frō the beginning of the creatiō of the world, to the laſt writing of the Apoſtles, that is from Geneſis to the Apoſtles books; after which there are none of like authoritie or beleef. Or thus, that the Law and the Prophets continued till Iohn, in whom the brightneſſe of truth was. The East was the Law: the Weſt, Iohn, the end of the Law. Now onelyonly the Church neither takes away the word and ſenſe of this brightneſſe, nor addes any thing elſe as propheticall. The place you bring, lieth thus: EueryEvery doctrine profeſſing it ſelfe to be truth, when it is not truth, either among the Gentiles, or among the Barbarians, is in ſome ſort Antichrist, going about to ſeduce, as truth, and to ſeuer p. 215vsus from him that ſaid, I am the truth. Therefore we muſt not giuegive eare to them which ſay, Behold here is Chriſt; but do not ſhew him in the Church, which is full of brightneſſe from the Eaſt to the Weſt, which is full of the true light, which is the pillar and ground of truth, in which whole Church, the whole comming of the Sonne of man is. Now the comming of the Sonne of man, is before expounded by him to be the word of truth. Doubtleſſe if you had not taken this proofe vponupon iiBellar. de Eccleſ. milit. lib. 3 c. 12. §. Vltim…Bellarmines, or ſome other mans credit, you would neuer hauehave brought it to proue the viſibilitie of the Church to all men at all times.

What ſaith kkCyprian. de vnit. eccle. §. 4.Cyprian in the place alledged, but that the Church is diſperſed ouer the whole world? Doth this proue, that it is at all times viſible to all men? Or hath Cyprian any ſuch purpoſe in that place? Is not his whole drift to ſhew, that there is but one Church, becauſe the truth they profeſſe is but one? The title of his booke, is Of the vnitie of the Church. The place you bring, concludes, that howſoeuer the beames are ſcattered or ſpread here and there, yet the light is but one. The Church, that is true beleeuers, were in this land in the dayes of perſecutiō, and is now in Spaine, Italy; and perhaps in Rome it ſelfe. This proues not a perpetuall viſibilitie.

What need we any other anſwer to this teſtimonie of Chryſoſtome, then that which your owne expoſition affoords vsus? Chryſoſtoms meaning is, that the Church cannot be quite without light, ſay you. What thē? Muſt it needs be viſible then to al men? The Moone is neuer wholy darkened, no not in the greateſt eclipſe, nor in the change, but is alwayes in the one halfe light: and yet he were mad that would conclude hereupon, that therefore it may be ſeene at all times of all men. Indeed Chryſoſtome ſpeaketh of the continuance of the Church, not of the viſibleneſſe thereof. That may appeare by his ſaying, that the Church hath her roote in heauen rather then in the earth. This argues ſtabilitie, not viſibilitie. And what Church hath rooting in heauen, but onelyonly the Church of the elect? The Church (ſaith llChryſoſt. in cap. 6. Eſai. homil. 4.Chryſoſtome in the ſame place) is more honorable then heauen, becauſe heauen is made for it, not it for heauen. Is heauen made for any Church, but that of the elect? Beſides, it was not the p. 216viſibility, but the being of the Church, againſt which thoſe tyrants whom Chryſoſtome there mentioneth, ſo mightily laboured; which yet continued in deſpight of them all.

Theſe and ſuch like places of Auſtin, ſhew the flouriſhing eſtate of the Churches in thoſe times, and conuince the Donatiſts, againſt whom Auguſtine writ, of wofull blindneſſe, who would ſee no church, but their owne heretical aſſembly in a part of Africa. But they neither were intended, not can with any reaſon be applied to proue that the church is alwayes viſible to all men. mmAuguſt. con. epiſt. Parmen. lib. 3. cap. 5.The former of the two places, as I ſhewed before, is interpreted by the Fathers, of the Apoſtles: That the Apoſtles (ſaith nnHieron. ad Math. 5.Matt 5Ierome) ſhould not hide themſelues for feare, but freely ſhew themſelues, he teacheth them to preach boldly, when he ſaith, A citie ſet vponupon an hill, cannot be hid. But let vsus take it to be meant of the Church. It muſt needs be a monſtrous hill, that can ſhew a citie ſet vponupon it to the whole world. A citie ſtanding on a hill, is the eaſier and the farther to be ſeene; but there is no hill high enough to be ſeene ouer the whole world. I would farther know, whether eueryevery particular Church be not a citie vponupon an hill or no. And yet is no ſuch Church to be ſeene of all men.

Concerning ooAuguſt. in 1. loan tract. 2.the latter place, Auſtin worthily cals them blind, that could not, or rather (as he truly ſaith) would not ſee that great mountaine, vponupon which the Church then ſtood, but would ſhut their eyes againſt the light that ſhined vponupon them. Yet who is ſo ignorant, that he knowes not, or ſo ſhameleſſe, that he will not cōfeſſe, that there were many aliue at that very time, which had no knowledge, that there was any Church in the world? But there neither were, nor could be any ſuch among the Donatiſts, or other like heretickes, who forſooke the Church to follow their owne fantaſies. ppReuel. 1. 20. & 2. 5.Rev 1:20Rev 2:5The candle is the Miniſter or the word, ſhining by his miniſtery; the candleſticke is the particular Church, where that miniſtery is: if any liuing in or neare the place where ſuch a candle burneth bright, will not ſee the light of it, he may well be called wilfully blind. So may not they which are ſo far, that the beames of the light cannot ſhine vntounto them.

p. 217Now the ſumme of that which hath bene anſwered, concerning the perpetuall continuance and viſibleneſſe of the church, is this: that the church, to which that continuance is promiſed, is the number of the elect, and not any one outward companie of men, ſucceeding one another in a famous and viſible profeſſion of Chriſtian Religion. Yea farther, though we do not vndertake to affirme, that there hath not bin at all times ſome one companie or other of true Chriſtians knowne to them, among whom they liued, to be profeſſors of the Goſpell: yet we doubt not to ſay, that there can be no ſufficient proofe brought out of the Scriptures, that there muſt of neceſſitie be alwayes ſuch a company: as if our Sauior Chriſts promiſes to his church were not performed, vnleſſe the world might at all times perceiue where ſuch a companie were to be found.